The Apple Juice Chair

Get ready, we’re talking about all the things. Feminism, Sodom and Gomorrah, patriarchy, inclusivity, hell, sexual identity, and the Barbie movie.

It was a crazy emotional week and we found it impossible to talk about one thing without all the others. Ultimately, in today’s episode, we’re looking towards God's heart for the oppressed and his radical inclusion and empowerment of all people. This is how we know that God is good for everyone. And this is what we are so passionate about. 

We also share a challenge at the end of our conversation. If you are curious about a passage of scripture or “hot button topic” that makes you question the goodness of God, please send it to us! We may not have the answers, but we would love to investigate and be curious with you. Never hesitate to reach out. You can email questions@theexileproject.com or reach out via social media @theexileproject.

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Resources 

• Jonathan McIntosh: Patriarchy According to the Barbie Movie
• Peter Enns: The Sin of Certainty
• Megan K Defranza: Sex Difference in Christian Theology - Male, Female, and Intersex in the Image of God
• Eric Berkowitz: Sex and Punishment - Four Thousand Years of Judging Desire

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Bible References

• Genesis 19
• John 4
• Matthew 8

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Transcript

Hi, this is Elisa. And this is Patricia. welcome to the Exile Project. We're so glad you're here. Okay, We're coming in today. Hot. We've had a big week full of. I don't know. A lot of emotion, a lot of emotion, a lot of stuff. Just a lot of life. our evolving theology is, on the ground in real time. And we're going to invite you into that today. We really wanted to talk about inclusion. And we wanted to talk about feminist theology and we ended up talking about all of it. I really care about like, how do we do this in the best way possible? And then we were like, maybe just all this is verbally vomit it, but it's so funny because it's so relevant

I felt like this week flew by. And we knew we wanted to talk about the Bible this week. We were like, What's our entry point? So I looked up. Top Googled questions about the Bible. And then we thought we would kind of riff off of that. And then instead I spent like 4 hours just going over Sodom and Gomorrah. So I actually do think that Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the most hotly misunderstood. A lot of the questions right there is the factual history. What does the Bible say about homosexuality? What is it about? I mean, there's like that one story probably you take like seven questions. Yeah. So she came in and she was like, I'm ready to talk about Sodom where I was a great. Can I tell you how it was absolutely a shit head at work yesterday first And that's where we are. There we are. Let's do it.

Well, so you're trying to do this task. You're doing it to the best of your ability. It's here and then and then and then the responses of this lady being like, You didn't do it the right way. Yeah. And then it was like, Wasn't it okay? And she's like, No, it's not. You have to do it this way. And then I was so mad and then I did it the right way. And then I just started to be just, just shitty enough back at her because I felt like she was being shitty to me I have no actual proof that she was being shitty to me, but I think like just being a little bit unreasonable. Yeah. There's no like and you know. And yeah. And it felt like it felt like a power trip and I think that there's probably kind of perceives as thoughtlessness is like like, oh kids, they don't know what to do, you know, I'm like, well, Your directions weren't clear. And that's hard to ever receive from anyone. And she doesn't know who I am. 

And so anyway, I started to be shitty back in and then I was sitting at a coffee shop the next morning and I was like, okay, what happened? Why was I so anxious? Because I was ruminating on our interactions which were all over text. It's hard to tell the right way, so I have no real idea what's going on. I couldn't ground myself. I was having, you know, a mild panic attack, which I don't have very often anymore. And so when they come up, I really want to figure out, what's going on? What am I believing about myself? What am I believing about her? And I'm sitting there. I feel like I finally realized, the anxiety? Peace was I feel like when I go into spaces of work, that any negative view of me could mean people keeping me down I have learned. For good reason that I have to be more than perfect to succeed. 

And so her opinion of me could mean that I won't succeed in what she doesn't know is that this moment in my life, I have to succeed because financially we're struggling it feels like the weight of the world is on this one opportunity. It's not. I know that. But that's what it feels like. And she doesn't know that. so I'm carrying that in there. so then that was good because I was like, identified. I feel like she can put her thumb on my ability to thrive or succeed in this thing, which is not true. I was like, God, you are the only one who says What happens to me? And then I was like. That is true. But I do not believe it to be true in the same way I used to believe it. Because the reality is shitty things happen. Yeah, shitty things happen whether God wills me to succeed in life or not. My whole life is data I think that God's calling in my life is for me to be wildly successful and empowered and a leader and all of these things. And yet I've been in space after space where that has not come to reality because humans and whether it be bosses Interpersonal relationships, chemistry, people on a power trip, whatever. I have been kept at bay. I have not been empowered. Yes. 

God, God is sovereign you know. the reality is it's not necessarily if God calls me into deep success in this company or as a speaker or a leader or as a pastor, that will come true. That's actually not the case. But what is true is how God sees me So while I don't have any promises about monetary success in this company or anywhere else. I do have a promise that I can rest in how God sees me. So how do I not have a panic attack when this happens and work? And I was like, that's the turn. The other cheek. That's the rest in integrity. Like. I. I could make a paper trail of how every person is shitty to me and maybe prove one day in a court of law that I should have been promoted when I wasn't. And that's not happening right now. 

I'm just saying, theoretically, but that's not God's design for the way we interact with with anyone in the world. And so it's like, okay, well, and when these moments come. You just turn the other cheek and you say. my choices do matter, and my integrity matters. And we are, I think, as the people of God meant to not. Respond in shitty ness. You know, like I think at the end of the day, what I realized how that could have been different. When I look at yesterday and again it's so mild that was like such a such a silly little interaction between two people that don't even know each other. I don't know that she was being shitty. But even if she was, my response to her should not be shitty and I should not try to climb any kind of corporate ladder or spiritual ladder or ladder of leadership. By anything but integrity and with love. That's how we keep the covenant. 

Now, we get into the weeds of like, what does it look like to turn the other cheek and what does it look like to, you know, love your neighbor? It's like just don't be shitty and don't be manipulative and we have no promises in this. every day is is like a choice between Deuteronomy thinking and the gospel. am I going to do this thing where I'm trying to make some kind of calculus and and get the best outcome for me? Or am I going to just live with integrity and and be the kind of person I know how to be in any given situation? And that's hard because there are so many people claiming to power And it's by means of stepping on everyone else's neck instead of just putting their head down and working and being kind and and doing the right thing.

it's an interesting thing to be in this moment of. wanting to take risks. Mm hmm. And feeling like, how do you do that? And I do think, what you said about, having to believe in yourself in a sense like that. This is what I'm called to. You know, like, I think we have to stop waiting for permission. Yeah, I know. And I don't. I don't know how to, like, get that in us enough. I don't. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, and this woman that I'm working with, she could be carrying the same thing. I don't know how she grew up. I don't know her her perspective. But I know we're both women in the workplace, you know, and I know what that means to be a woman in a, you know, in America in the workplace, you know. And, um, and so if we're both suffering from that sort of conditioned keep down, then, you know, of course it results in us being mildly shitty to each other. And, and how do we. And how do we get out of that? how do we ground ourselves enough in our identity and. And the process of just growing and learning and accept that we don't have to be perfect I'm very curious to know if there is a man alive who feels that they need to be perfect to succeed like. I mean, I'm sure there are

We watched this hour long. It was it's really good, a video essay about the patriarchy and the Barbie movie. Mhm. And. It was super good. essentially patriarchy is the focus on male power. And then that the society is built around male centered ness. And that doesn't mean that it's just women who are oppressed. It's also men who are oppressed because it's centering around keeping one type of person in power. And centering around this sort of exaggerated views of masculinity. And so then, therefore, if there is not a masculine male, they are oppressed you know, just like women are. And so it's it's not just women who are oppressed in a patriarchal society. It's everyone. And what happens is if you were trying to uphold patriarchy and uphold male power. it creates infighting against different types of males or just males that are trying to keep power. But as individual women, you know, step into power. 

First of all, it starts you creating an idealized woman who can hold power. My aunt is one of these people. She worked in a really male dominated field politics and for many, many years And I can't tell you how many conversations we had about what it looked like to be professional. And she was like, you need to stop crying. You cannot cry in the workplace. essentially you have to be tough. You have to be male you to be masculine, to succeed. And she subscribed to that in the workplace. And it created this veneer around her because she she had to be this type. And and I saw that in her friends, her colleagues, you know, who are women in power. It's like they had to act like men. so there's this, like, idealized kind of woman that gains power. I've seen in the church, too, you know, people who can reflect or speak like the other males in the room The men will be more comfortable around them, and they also will invite them into spaces of thought and teaching. Whereas if you have a completely different style or you're overly feminine, will you please teach the children? But then what that creates is the women who are like, I'm smart enough and I have ambition, not even just smart. 

There's plenty of women who are smart enough. I have I'm smart enough and I have ambition and I'm good at X, Y, Z. I'm going to try to find a way to get into that space. It creates that dynamic. it creates infighting, because the patriarchal system. Is about fighting for and fighting to keep power. Yeah, it's not an empowering system. It's not an equitable system. which is interesting because I feel like people think that the Bible is patriarchal Well, I mean, it is written in a context that is patriarchal. But I do think when we think about Jesus. Right. Right. It's like an upside down. he's not patriarchal. Yeah. And he's he's imaging like the true reality, the true nature of God by this kind of complete overhaul of what power is for. Right. Right is beautiful because it's like, every time I feel like I'm doubting the character of God. It's like Jesus with his hand outstretched on the scalpel. Or, you know, like here is power reaching out towards the broken and the marginalized and the suffering. And I think that this is the through line of the entire gospel narrative. 

The biblical narrative is power being used to save. Right. I know I'm crying now because it's been a long week, but I same thing. My my vision of Jesus is him sitting on the well with women having a having a thoughtful conversation about who they are and how they get power. The women that woman on the well had been married five times because she didn't have any power or agency or a name because she was probably buried. She lives in a world where you don't have any livelihood unless you're married. Right. And so she keeps your only option. Right. And he's like, I'm enough for you. Yeah, I am enough. I you don't need to marry anyone else. And you could ditch the one you're trying to now or whatever. I am enough. And I say that in my ecosystem, in my kingdom, you do have a name and you do have an identity, and you do, you know, we're going to make a way for resources for you, right? So like, even though we're we're not talking about resourcing in this one conversation, when you think about like his whole ministry and message and you think about the message of the Bible, what is it? Take care of the widows, the orphans and the aliens. Well, so in theory, this woman who has no identity but like she is the most vulnerable. And so theoretically in Jesus's ecosystem, he's like, yeah, you have an identity, you're cared for emotionally and socially. But also we're going to find a way to resource you so you don't have to go and find another man to marry. Because in my kingdom where I am the king you're resourced for. And I like I love that that's mine. But

I also love that Jesus is bankrolled by wealthy women. I just think that that's such an awesome thing that. that's pointed out that Jesus is ministry. I think that when you read the book with a little bit of feminist theology in your in your arsenal, you know, when you start to look for the women in the narratives, right? It's like it's like all this stuff about, oh, yeah, you know, Jesus in his 12 disciples, Jesus had a lot more people following him. Right. I think the 12 disciples thing is imaging new Israel, But the people who are with him the entire time are women. Right. That the cross of they're at the tomb. They're there throughout his his whole ministry. So he's he is not only with 12. That's like, I think a literary device to to kind of continually hammer home that God is doing something new in rebirthing Israel. Right. 

But in the beginning of Luke, he talks about, you know, the 12 are with him and also some women who'd been cured of evil spirits and diseases Mary called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had come out. Joanna, the wife of who? The the manager of Herod's household. So essentially Herod is helping to bankroll Jesus's ministry and Susanna and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means. Right. It was like a couple of years ago, I discovered that and I was just like, wait, what? Like Jesus sitting with women. He's honoring women, but he's partnering with women. He's partnering with them. Right. Right. In such a wild way. And I think, too, I've like felt because I although it's intense personality but quick to cry and always felt like that was like a weakness and always felt like I got to tone myself down. I have emotions, but I'm learning to use them. Yeah, I'm learning to use them.

And this past week I had this sort of wild situation. I work a lot with the migrant community and I'm getting to just know some different guys who have journeyed here from Morocco. And one of my friends reached out to me and one of his friends is struggling with pancreatic cancer. And so there was this sort of like, you know, do we try to find this guy a place to live while he's going through treatment And so I met him at the shelter. He was staying out was near Whole Foods. We sat on the roof of Whole Foods and I'm like, I can barely speak. I can't speak any Arabic. We're being translated, but I can I can show up with some food and I can show interest. You know, and he's showing me photos of his family, which was very important because as as as the like these few days are kind of going we're trying to figure out, like, what's the best plan? He mentions wanting to go home. Mm hmm. And and I was like, yeah, you know, you you have a beautiful family that makes sense that you would want to spend. 

I don't you know, I was very careful to be like your last days with me. Like, I'm not going to say that. But, like, you know, there's this back and forth. Like, I ended up connecting with a friend who speaks Arabic. And his father's friend actually was part of this group that helped to get get this guy said take it home and kind of money for the trip. And he's and anyway, it's this this whole thing of like trying to figure out how to resource this guy. And so on Wednesday, I met up with him and we sat at Whole Foods again. He just had two cups of hot water because that's all he is. He's in so much pain, right? You know, he's gray. His skin is like sunken in is so it's so hard. And I and I feel like, you know, sitting there with someone. Yeah. And being willing to give them your time and your emotions, you know, you cry with those who cry, right? That is like that. Right there is the gospel, right, you know. And so I'm just sitting there and it just didn't feel like enough also, cause I'm like, you know, it was like, Can I buy? 

Eventually he let me buy him some olives and some pita bread. And then I was like, okay, bye. And so yesterday he texted me that he's at the airport and he's going back to Morocco and he's going to go see his family. And, you know, he was like, you know, I'm at the airport now. And I was like, I wish you a good journey. And he's like, Goodbye. We stay in touch. He's translating from the Arabic. So it's like, you know, like in translation. But I was like, Goodbye. It was such a pleasure to meet you. And he wrote back, Thank you very much. You are a human being. And I kind of felt like, you know, like it's like them that recognition of being truly human when you sit with the people who are suffering and that that's that's the through line, that is the through line. Like, you know, the Exodus story of like God hears the cry of the oppressed and he reaches out with his strong arm to save. That is the story. That is the story. And we've talked. Turned it into something else about power and empire. And we have to get back to remembering what it really is about. And honestly, all of this really perfectly Segways into Sodom and Gomorrah. Oh, my God. Are we going to put you are we going to do feminist theology and inclusion today?

Oh, man, we're doing it. in chapter 13 of Genesis, like last single and wealthy. Right. him and Abraham have made like a killing on sheep or whatever. I mean, they're, like, doing well. Right. And then there's that moment where Abraham's like, Lot. Which side? Where do you want? We'll go with supper. Separate our ways. We'll go different ways. And he picks the, like, really lush area. That's where he's going to go settle. So he has a lot of resources. He's choosing to be in a in a resourced land. Then Lot is captured. These five kings go to war against him. Abraham shows up and saves the day. All this stuff is happening in response to this victory. Abraham tithes to Melchizedek, this guy who is not Abraham, who knows Yahweh. and we have like the first mention of Jerusalem Lots of things are happening that we could spend a ton of time exploring all of the stuff, Then we get to the narrative and. It's late at night. He's bringing these outsiders. into his home. And it looks like spies. 

It looks and it smells like spies, you know? And so the men come and they're like, Bring us your men so that we can know them. In my Bible, it says so that we can know them. Carnley. Hmm. But that's not there in the Hebrew. And like, all of this stuff ends up being about words and specificity and language And to know could mean to interrogate, to know their intentions. Right. That's a different motivation than, gay rape. also, there's no precedent in the ancient world for cities that allowed to promoted gay rape. The sexual codes in the ancient world were pretty, pretty strict. Right. You know, you could probably do whatever you wanted with a slave. These visitors would have been considered an equal, right. by legal ancient Assyrian code, the man who raped another man would be killed. So you have that. 

And then on the other side, we don't understand the value of women in the ancient world. women were a very, very important economic resource. You sold your women. Wow. You know, like so when lots like, here, take my daughters, you know, there's there could be a nuance of it's better for you right. To rape them than these men, for sure. And that's complicated. But it is unlikely that that's what he thought was going to happen because of the fact that they're his most valuable property. It's more of like a like it's described in some of the the Jewish writers as like more of like a hostage hostage exchange thing. We're going to give you a I'm giving you my valuable possession. And if anything goes wrong, you can have them. You can have my word. Right. You can trust me that these people are not, you know, here to destroy our city. You can take my daughters as collateral, right? Sort of thing. Right. Right. You have lot who is an outsider in Saddam, we know when he leaves Abraham, he's single and now he's married with daughters. So we know that there is heterosexuality in this area. when these men come to light, it specifies that they're of all ages. Mm hmm. 

Which if you have a city that's only homosexual there wouldn't be procreation just by nature of human sexuality. So it seems like there's heterosexual normative behavior. Right. And the fact that his daughters are marrying men from Saddam. I haven't ever been that stressed out about the homosexuality part of it because I'm like, okay, whatever. I don't really know. Right? And it wasn't to me, really stressed out about him and his daughters. Hmm. Because then it's like, you know, they leave the city. Yeah. And then it feels like literally 2 minutes later, they're like, let's get Dad drunk so we can lay with him and have babies. And it's like, it just feels like that's. I'm like, wait, what? Right. also so many things they Philly and they're like, let's take enough wine with us to get dad drunk. Like, there's like 45 different questions that this brings up to me. I was probably the age or some of these kids in Bible Club when I was just given a Bible and started reading it. 

It was I'm like reading all this stuff for the first time and being like, Wait, what? Right. Oh, my gosh. I remember. One time, being a kid, probably same age ten or something. And it was like a Sunday afternoon. My dad's like taking a nap and he's like, Hey, do you want to hang out with me? And which, by the way, like, I will take a nap periodically and my kids will come play next to me and read a book or, you know, super normal. No, not weird. Yeah, I'm super normal. But because I'd been reading the Bible, I was like, if I lay with him, I will conceive like no sex education. And I'm reading the Bible. It's like, this is pretty clear. She laid with him and then she had a baby. So I was just like and I didn't know how to tell my dad. Right. 

And I didn't want to have his baby. So I was just like, No, thank you. that's so funny. one of the midrash perspectives is that they literally think they're the only people left on the earth. And they're like, because after Sodom is destroyed, they're like, There is no more humanity, right? We will do this thing. We have all that so that we can continue humanity. Yeah, well, that's kind of that's that totally changes the write everything another midrash your perspective is that they're protecting his lineage. Right, which is what they say. They're like, let's get dead drunk and then we'll save his lineage. the Bible says that he doesn't have any idea that this happens, which I think is a little bit I doubt that I really doubt that who lot or lot know like it's like he doesn't know when the daughter lays down and gets up. 

So they have a lot to drink. And then where's the verse? Yeah. He's dwelling in these mountains with his daughters. The first born goes into the cave, and she's like our father's old witch. How gross is this? Then there's another perspective that he does know that he's in. He's into it. So that's another perspective. He knows what's going on. And because he was willing to give his daughters to the sexual wants of these men, if that's the reading, then essentially it's like what goes around comes around. It's like he was going to do something, you know, he gets sort of taken advantage of is the part that you said about God didn't judge them because he knew their thoughts and not and like he he would take into account their thoughts and not their actions. Is that midrash or is that midrash okay. 

Yeah, I really like that. He wanted it to be in the text. No, unfortunately that in the text but to me that's a that's another big throughline of the Bible for me when it comes when we're talking about behavior or we talking about sin is like I agree. If I was if I was if I was purporting my own midrash, I would say. God always takes in consideration of your motives and your thoughts even more than your actions. Because. That's where everything stems from. You know, and so it's like, that shows the omnipotence of God, you know. And that is the benefit of the omnipotence of God. I was like, we always had to memorize that. God is omnipotent, God is omniscient and God is what, omnipresent? And I was like, great. And and they're like, oh, well, that's the that's the benefit is that he knows us. So he knows everything and he knows us. And that's how he holds on to his his compassion and his understanding of his forgiveness.

I think the biblical narrative is about God hearing the cry of those who are oppressed, hearing the cry of those who are suffering and reaching out with his mighty arm to save. I think that is the through line. Yeah. You know, and and because of that, that's sort of the lens. that I'm bringing. So one of the rabbinic traditions of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah talks about how Sodom was this very wealthy city. this very wealthy area that was arrogant and proud and did not care for the sojourner, the poor. And so if a beggar came to the city, they would give him a coin, but it would have their name on it. So, like, let's say you're coming to you're coming into the town. I'm going to give you a coin and Bill, say Patricia on it. And because we're not going to sell you bread, we're going to give you a coins. But then when you die from hunger and starvation, we're going to go back and grab our coins back. So it was sort of this like weirdly duplicitous generosity where it's like, I'm going to be I'm going to look like I'm caring for you, but I'm not. 

And so then there's this. This girl chooses to feed this beggar. And for three days, she's she's giving him bread. And then it's discovered. And the rulers of Saddam take her, they bind her, they cover her with honey and stick her on the wall of the city. And she's, like, attacked by bees or whatever. And the rabbis say that it is this cry that God is responding to in verse 30 of chapter 18 of Genesis, the Lord's having this conversation with Abraham, and he's like, Because the outcry against Adam and Gomorrah is great and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done all together according to the outcry against it, that has come to me And if not, I will know which is a super, super confusing phrase in some way. But essentially the idea is like there's this cry of pain and suffering and God's like, I'm going to go. 

I'm going to get some of that out. if the story of Saddam Gomorrah, which is often told as a story to kind of proof text. Right. Homosexuality. Right. Right. If that was the case, wouldn't God have already known that that was the case? Right. But I don't know the imagery of this girl covered in honey, which, again, this is not in the text. Right. And this is what happens with interpretation. We begin to ask questions or we're looking for other interpretations because we because we have to figure out what the apple is. Cherries. Right. there's this interesting story about this guy is visiting a family and he comes downstairs for breakfast and he's told to sit in the apple juice chair. If you don't have any context, that doesn't make any sense. But in his reality, he's looking at the table and there's four settings that have milk and one setting that has apple juice. So the apple juice chair is a specific location. Right. 

You know, and the geography of this table, it's specific. language is so specific. Right. But but we we kind of I think just take these verses out of context and then we just sort of like are stuck with these apple juice chairs, right Without really knowing where where they're coming from or then how to how to deal with it. It's like it doesn't mean that every chairs and apple juice chair is a specific moment Right. You know, what is that? What is the apple juice chair? Right. Y right. Right. and I think that in a sense, reading a homosexual narrative into it is the same. It's not actually there, in Ezekiel the pride of Sodom and Gomorrah is pride, gluttony and laziness, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door, which again, it's like that girl covered in honey being right. You know what I mean? It's like that's it's it's seeing the suffering and choosing to do nothing about it. Right. And then in Isaiah, Fare Zion is left like a booth in a vineyard, like a hut and a cucumber field, like a city beleaguered had not. 

The Lord of hosts left some survivors. We should be like Saddam. We should resemble Gomorrah. Hear the Word of the Lord. You chieftains of Saddam give ear to God's instruction, you folk of Gomorrah. So the beginning of Isaiah is basically like your Sodom and Gomorrah because You're not caring for the people. And we know that because down the chapter, learn to do good, seek justice, correct oppression, bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. And then 118 come now and let us reason together, says the Lord, though your sins are a scarlet, they shall be wider snow red though they were red like crimson, they shall become like wool. So it feels like, as people are reflecting on story of Saddam Gomorrah, what they're thinking about is the oppression of the needy. Right. it's like the lack of hospitality. But it's frustrating when you have conversations about this and people are like, oh, yeah, the lack of hospitality. 

It's like, because we don't understand hospitality, right? Like literally the stories like Abraham running to prepare food for the Lord. radical hospitality. And then the next story is radical lack of hospitality. So in the ancient world, hospitality is such a big deal, and yet we're kind of like, we want it to be about something else, right? We want it to be you know, I was going to say, isn't that a more coherent story? Way more coherent. It it makes so much more sense, especially then I was thinking about the fact that you just like read Isaiah about Sodom and then we're reading the text about Sodom. And we have to also remember that this is all being written down in more or less the same hundred years, because they're writing down a lot of these stories during the exile and post exile. And so all of this is sort of being told and figured out and wrestled with over the same generation ish. And they are telling coherent stories. 

We can't read one without the other. We can't understand one without the other. So it would make way more sense that Saddam was being judged. Because of hospitality and because of their care for the poor. When God is talking about sin. Mm hmm. In the Jewish narrative and in the biblical narrative, 95,000% of the time, it's about idolatry. The worst sin to God is idolatry. Right? And part of idolatry looks like as. As a human vocation. Right to worship God and care for the world. It looks like caring for the poor. Right. So when? So it's a it's a double thing. Well, not worshiping the one true God, which this is pre mosaic law. It doesn't seem like there's like a ton of, rules that are really being broken that have been set out. So it's really like, I think, honoring humanity, opposing violence, caring for the for the needy. 

This is what it looks like to be truly human, which is that whole moment with my friend where he was like, thank you. You are a human being. You know, it's like it's like being human. Reflects right, reflects the heart of God. And there's this moment where when Jesus is being broken and beaten and he's standing before pilot and he's bleeding, and pilot looks at him and he and he says, Behold the man. Mm hmm. And it's this moment where it's like, God. shows the fullness of humanity by meeting us right in brokenness and suffering. Right. I just think that that's beautiful. when we turn that lens onto the story. Right, we see the tenderness of God caring for the oppressed. Right. Not, you know, not a proof text. Right. 

For exclusion. Right. When Jesus talks about Sodom and Gomorrah, he's talking about hospitality. Mm hmm. He says if anyone does not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust from your feet Leave that home or town. It will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. So in mass. Wow. 1015. And then Luke 1012. Again, it's like it's like how many times? It's like it's like Galileo with a telescope looking at the sky. Right, right. It's like, how many times do we have to point right to what this is about, which is God's heart and and and welcoming in the stranger, radically calling people back into family. Why are we making it about something that it's not? Why? Why are we doing that? And it's power. It's power,

We read our understanding of the Bible and our position in the world into the narratives. I think the biblical narrative is about God hearing the cry of those who are oppressed, hearing the cry of those who are suffering and reaching out with his mighty arm to save.

this week. We were also studying Galileo and he's just really crazy because he, builds this telescope. And so he's looking up at the sky and he can see the moons traveling on Jupiter. and he's like, Wow, this proves that there's something in the universe that doesn't revolve around the earth. Huh? These moons are revolving around Jupiter, and it's super challenged because there's like a bajillion verses in the Bible that suggests a geocentric universe and even the beginning of Genesis. Mm hmm. as God is creating the heavens and the earth, it's like Genesis one. There's this idea of firmament or vault or stone. So it's like God separating the waters of the deep. So you have like all this water and then you have waters above and waters below. But it's a flat earth. Right. You don't have a circular globe. Nobody thinks globe at this moment. 

So you have this flat earth and then you'd have like this one kind of level of, like, stars and, and sun. But then above that you have the heavens, and then below that you have hell. So that's like that's an ancient understanding of how the universe works. Right? And there's all these interesting verses like. So we've got Genesis. We've also got like the sun standing still in the battle of Joshua some 93. When they're two, the world is firmly established. It will not be moved. You've got some 19 one through five that the sun is described as like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber or a champion getting ready to run a race across the sky. You've got like Isaiah 40, 22, he sits enthroned above the circle of the earth and it's people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy and spreads them out like a tent. 

Ezekiel one Ah, Ecclesiastes one, three, five. The sun rises and the sun sets and. He's back to where it starts. So it's like. So this isn't just like, oh, I'm seeing moons revolve around Jupiter. It's like a challenge to science. It's a challenge to politics. It's a challenge to who gets to define truth. It's a challenge to have in this is like sort of the end of a medieval understanding of heaven, because it's not right out there. And of course, you know, initially the church is like new. Yeah. And we're what we were watching this movie from the seventies, which was really difficult to follow because these three boys kept singing falsetto. as narrators, We were like, Wait, what are they saying? But there's this moment where he's like, Look, you look in the telescope. Yeah. And you can see it. And they were like, Now. 

They're like, this is a distraction away from the truth of God and he. And the crazy part is Galileo recants his beliefs and not necessarily just because of the church, but because of like this. Ain't nobody believed. I mean, it was like the dawn of this shift, right? Right. Where it's like we're looking. And in our observation, it has to be like a basis for for truth. And it's an interesting moment of just how we define reality, how we didn't how we know it's true. Yeah. You know, but I think that that's an interesting thing to think about because eventually, right? You know, everybody got telescopes in it and they're like, oh, actually, you know, it's not flat. The sun is the center of our solar system. You know, like there's these things that

would have ever believed that that would have been truth and we take it for granted, right? Yeah. So I think that there's precedent for. Coming to the Bible and acknowledging the context that we have, the countries that we're coming from, the questions that we're asking and the kind of understanding that we have now versus maybe what they would have understood. We have made so many leaps and bounds there's so many understandings that we have

that Galileo was writing, it's like shortly after the impact of the printing press has changed everything because scientists were having to start from the beginning or start with like Aristotle and, you know, Plato, but like ancient. Science. But they weren't able to just, like, riff off each other because there was no access to like passing on information. Right. So now all of a sudden you have printing presses and you can write things out in a much easier way. And then it can be it can be distributed. So so really what's happening to is it's knowledge is shifting, right? And it's impacting research and understanding. And that's the moment that we live in. We live in this radical moment that kind of mirrors that shift. Wow. I didn't think about that because the way we share knowledge is has increased like so fast over the last decade. Right. Over the last, I guess, 20, 30 years. But really, it just

exponentially rate shifting. So we're in we're in a shift. Right. I didn't even think about the fact that there was a moment in time where. People went from not building off of each other's knowledge to building off of each other's knowledge like that. That, to me, is. I mean, it's like, duh. But I never had consciously thought about that before. That's an it isn't really interesting. Yeah. And I think to like that's important because. The questions we're asking. Are so important and they're contextual, right? If your questions are about is the earth the center of the universe, you're looking for something specific, right? You know, and then and then and then you're dealing with these versus in a different way. But but we we kind of I think just take these these verses or beliefs out of context and then we just sort of like are stuck with these apple juice chairs, right Without really knowing where where they're coming from or then how to how to deal with it. 

It's like it doesn't mean that every chairs and apple juice chair is a specific moment and it's okay that these verses that kind of reflect a flat earth kind of understanding of the universe, because it's in a specific context where the point isn't about the flat earth. The point. The point is about God's glory, right? As a creator, gods, you know, joy in creation. It's about His Majesty and his beauty, you know. So so if we're looking to it to answer specific scientific question, it might fall short. But if we're looking to it to understand the bigger picture, right? I think about the like if that story was flipped and and, you know, he comes into the room and and mom says, don't sit in the apple juice chair. 

We would, you know, if you were thinking about that, like taking it from like an interpretive, biblical view, we would start to make all apple juice chairs dangerous. Yeah. And we would be like, well, if it could be an apple juice chair, we shouldn't sit in. What isn't it? What happens if you do sit in the apple juice chair, all the things that will go wrong if your right. Right. So it would be probably better if you didn't look at an apple juice chair. You didn't think about an apple this time. He didn't go in it. And I think that's also how we take the Bible. And we we try to make rules that are at the heart of it. A warning to stay away from something that might hurt you. Okay. But because we don't have the context of what a hell an apple juice should. We're just arbitrarily making rules and designs and moral standards that are just like, hey, you know, just in case, yeah, let's not do any of those things. Or you should really focus on here a little, you know? Yeah. Depending on what we're talking about, whether we're talking about which, of course, we're trying to either talk about inclusion or feminist theology, but we're both, um,

One Bible Club. One of the girls came in and she was coming in hot with all the questions about the Bible. I have questions about the Bible. Great. Let me have them. And so she started with, was the creation done in seven days? Is that how was it? Okay. know, I started to be like it's a story it's telling the story of creation. It's not necessarily little. We don't have to worry about the days. Okay. Okay. So I don't know where, but I've never found dinosaurs in the Bible. Did dinosaurs exist or is the Bible not true? So it was like this question of. if dinosaurs are real, then the Bible's not true. And if the Bible is true, then dinosaurs aren't real. And I was like, Wow, you know, I don't think right is an interesting logic and it's a fair logic. 

I was like, I get what you're saying, because if the if the Bible tells the story of creation and dinosaurs aren't included, then what's true and so again, the Bible is telling one story of creation and then we have science and we can use them both to find out more about the world. and she kept rapid firing these questions and the heart of the question was is the Bible true? Can I trust what the Bible says? And I and and so every time she would ask a question like that, I would say, you can trust the Bible. It is true, but also it's not perfectly literal. So you can also believe that dinosaurs, you know, you can also look at science. And so we kept having the same and she I noticed she was she was asking the same question. 

And finally she was like. My friend at school is Muslim and she kind of believes in the Bible, but she kind of believes in her own book and like the island, will God send her to hell? And so in her limited understanding of the like ecosystem of the Bible or the story of the Bible was that if you don't believe in God, God sent you to hell. And I was like, Okay, okay, now we're getting somewhere. so then I was like, so I feel like what you're asking me is, God is good. And and what story does the Bible tell about that good God or how God makes decisions? And I was like, okay, well, that we can talk about. And she kept giving me like all of these characteristics of her friend. She's really nice. She really she sometimes doesn't listen to her parents, but she does almost all of her math homework. And I was like, okay. I was like, okay, God loves your friend. God is is so good. I cried so hard over this after that night because, really, the heart of it was like, does God send people to hell? 

I looked at her eyes and I was like, I know exactly the weight that you're carrying and I know exactly the anxiety you're feeling. And I want to tell you, as a grown up, you don't have to carry that and you don't have to bear it. Because I do not believe that. I do not believe that God is making a sort of like checklist, a pull appointed checklist for your friend to check off so that she may or may not go to heaven or hell. I said, God loves you. God loves your friend so much that in forever God will be revealing him himself to her and and and trying to captivate her heart. one moment as a ten year old does not define her eternal destiny. God's desire is for every human to know him, live a life with him, and then to join him in eternity like. The story is so much bigger than one kind of behavioral math equation. I love just that you met her there in the questions. Yeah. That you acknowledged the importance of them. I remember being a kid with questions and it just being like, here's the answer. Like, here's the certainty. And it's not. There's there isn't. The certainty is God's goodness. Yeah, right.

And I think but it's like the way we get there can feel pretty convoluted, right? Sometimes it's like goodness wrapped in mystery. Yeah. What I what I learned through this encounter and what and when I reflect back on other moments of holding questions about the Bible are sometimes we have to wait long enough to realize what someone's asking. she started to ask questions about dinosaurs and creation whether the Bible is literal or we can trust it as factual. But what she's really she wasn't asking that at all. She's carrying anxiety about God's heart for her friend. I remember being in a in a room with a. With a pastor and I had come out as sorry I don't appropriate the term coming out but was ending my moment in this in this workplace. And I was like, you know, one of the things as I want to be affirming and that's not what we like. 

That's not what this place offers. And so I want to I want to be very openly affirming. I believe that God is inclusive. I believe that the Bible is affirming. And I want to I want to I want to very, very blatantly express myself in that way and my beliefs and my theology. And there were a couple of pastors in the room, and one of them says, Well, I don't want to not be affirming. And I was like, Well, that's fine. You don't have to not be affirming. And the other one went, Well, my problem is that's the first question anyone ever asks. Like essentially it's like they're not giving the church the benefit of the doubt that they could be loving and not affirming. And I could hold that because I obviously was super familiar with the ministry. But the heart of the question is they're not looking past the first question. I didn't have the wherewithal in the moment to to fully articulate this. 

But if I went back and I wish I could, I've thought about this conversation over and over again. I want to say they're not asking whether you're affirming or not. They're asking whether they're going to be safe in this space. They're asking if they can be fully present and themselves and be on the journey. And if God is good for them and if God is good, God is good for them. Yeah. And so they are asking about your theology, but it's so much beyond whether you accept their lifestyle or not. And ultimately, if you don't put that out there, you're not a safe space for them and you're not going to let them have their process and have their own journey with God. Like you are cutting it off. And so ultimately, at the end of the day, it's better for them not to attend that ministry, you know, or be in that in that church because it's not a safe space for them. And for me, I want to openly create safe spaces for every person to come and and be on a journey with Jesus. Because I believe that's what Jesus offers and invites us into. 

But I think I think when we are asking questions of the Bible, we have to know we're asking and sometimes we don't. There's so many times during every day that I'm asking myself a question or even have some kind of thought process that I'm like, Oh, this isn't what this is about. You know, even that the story I told you in the beginning of like, why am I being shitty to this person is because I feel personally attacked. No, it was because I thought that my livelihood was being threatened by this one interaction over email. That's so dumb. But until I recognize that, that's what the question I'm asking, or that's what I'm bringing to the table. I can't stop myself from ruminating. I can't stop myself from having anxiety, and I can't act. I can't stop acting like a fool. You know, I think it's such a good point because, you know, the initial question of like there's dinosaurs in the Bible or the Bible's wrong is it's kind of this like, we want this like black and white, right? and understanding the question is actually, is God good? And how does this story tell that is such an important part of like engaging. Yes. with the text.

And and I think like also just jumping on the idea of like how we were no longer coming to these texts, to the biblical narrative singularly because we have access to so much information. Right. That we've only recently had. Martin Luther. in the 1400s. When he is like nailing the 95 theses to the wall, like people hadn't even read the Bible. Often what would happen is as a priest, you would be sharing what you were taught about the Bible from a from your priest or your, you know, your your bishop or something. Martin Luther becomes a priest, is a monk for a while and doesn't start reading Romans until later in his life So he because they because they're just don't have access to right. It's like right. 

And then it's like right on the edge the printing press starts printing out 450 Bibles, which would have taken, I think they said like 20 monks 90 years to make one. So it's like all of a sudden it's like one Bible. One Bible is like B, it was a very time consuming process. Like maybe, maybe it was a lot more decorative, I'm not exactly sure. But, you know, it's like, well, it's a lot of the Illuminati manuscript situation, but like now you have access to the printed word And part of the reason why the Reformation happens the way it does is because he writes those 95 theses and they get tacked on the wall, but then they get printed and they get handed out to everyone and it's in their language. So he's starting this theological conversation in the language of the people so they have access to it. and it's a huge moment because what he's suggesting isn't just theological, it's political. 

it has to do with money and economics and power. It's this big it's this big moment. So, you know, as I've been studying the Bible over the last couple of decades on my own, like I'm not on my own. I'm standing on, you know, the shoulders of ancient rabbis and, people writing across different denominations. And I have access to Catholic literature and medieval mystics, and I don't have to just go to the library and I'm limited to the to the to the books that my library carries. Right. I can I can like Amazon anything. Right. Which my husband, you know, I'm like, oh, it's like books coming in. I'm literally sitting here with, like 40 books,

in this moment, where we have radical access to information, the definition for this moment now is called liquid modernity because it's changing faster than it can be defined. Our theology has to keep up. Right. So that means back to what you said earlier. We have to be aware of why we're asking the questions we're asking. Right. And if it's like if it's. Are there dinosaurs in the Bible? Because I really want to know deep down, if I can trust that God is good. Let's get to the deep down and not just spend our whole lives fighting this surface level of the questions. Right? For what? For what? And only because I feel like we've hit on every important we've been. Like, how are we going to talk about some of this hard stuff? Right. Just all of all it was all about trying to do it.

But so I'm just going to quickly end with help. But I mean, let's definitely talk about how I feel like the only other. Well, a lot of times when when I'm in a conversation about Bible or theology or like, you know, deconstruction or wherever, wherever someone else is, you know, hell comes up because and I now I say, you know what? I'm on the fence about how let's put a pin in it. I'm on a journey to understand what the Bible says about health. And so I'm not willing to put out my, really, my firm understand and belief about where I am with health right now, which is fine. But also it's like, let's be process oriented. Let's, let's agree that our understanding of any given truth is evolving. and in process because we have ever evolving information. 

And so while I feel like I have a pretty firm set of beliefs on, on God's goodness on the Bible being inclusive, on what feminist theology looks like and how the Bible promotes equality. You know, about, you know, hell and the afterlife and what all that looks like. I'm still really in process and it looks it feels way less clear to me. And I think to be when we're thinking about any of these things, no matter where you are with any of these big questions, hot button issues, it's okay to be in process. It's okay to be like, I'm not willing to talk about it cause I don't have enough understanding or I'm willing to talk about it. If you're willing to be curious with me and not and not, you know, push me into a corner to tell you what I believe. And so I think how we have these conversations is in safety, find safe people to have them with fine curious people to have them with and and just free yourself up to be like, hey, I don't know, I'm going to put a pin in it right now. 

I'm not you know, I'm not if it if it's pushing you away from the goodness of God being central to your belief system, that's fine. That's okay. Just put it away for a while, you know what I mean? Or find someone safe to have that conversation with. The word to which is where we get hell is a physical place. And it's where man Nasser is. It's child sacrificing his children. Mm hmm. It's a place of actual present suffering. Right. It's a place of radical, dehumanizing and violence. Right. we have more of a medieval understanding of heaven and hell in modern Christianity. Right. And and and that involved a lot of things we don't believe in now. Like purgatory, for example. Right. You know, so for a long time, the belief about hell was that you could kind of buy your way out of it, Yeah. So, yeah, I also believe highly in putting a pin in it. Yeah, me too. But also, I think. I think we discovered the hell is the apple first. You also could be the apple. Sorry, Alice. The apple juice might be the apple juice.

There's this it's this idea that that if you're going to be in any way part of the conversation, you can only lead well if you have the certain answers. We're not that I don't believe that. I don't believe we have good questions and we have lots of pins for the things that we're not sure about. That's the best answer you're going to get. there aren't clear answers about a lot of this stuff, We have to embrace mystery. Yeah. We have to embrace mystery and intimacy and believe in the God who loves us and knows us by name and is with us. Yeah, that is true. And then there's a lot of things that we can bring to him, a lot of our questions. I mean, my wrestling with lots incestuous daughters has been a huge door open for me. And, and in bringing questions to God, being like, I don't know about this, this, this, this freaks me out. Right, right. 

And in the midst of that, there's there's there isn't like and this is the actual answer. It's like my questions are safe. I am safe. Right? we're here not to answer your questions, but we are here to sit with your question. So if you have a verse in the Bible, a passage in the Bible, story in the Bible that is like this is keeping me away from believing that God is good. Will you send them to us? Yeah, just. Just that it could just literally be like. What are your thoughts on this verse? Yeah, because what we are super passionate about is getting to the goodness of God and being and being safe in his presence and or her presence And so if something is keeping you from feeling safe with God, send them to us because we want to unpack that with you. 

And the probability is that someone else is holding that too and too embarrassed or too scared to actually voice the question. I know that that was me for so long. I was like, I don't want to voice my deepest anxiety about God, because what if it's true? And let me tell you, that is the way in to safety is finally finding one safe person to be like, this is what's keeping me from God. Great. Let's do it together. I'm here to hold your hand. All right. All right. Let's wrap. It is a wrap