I talk with close friend and fellow psychotherapist, Lisa Chen.
Lisa is a friend and collaborator who runs a group therapy practice in Hermosa Beach. You can find her at: lisachentherapy.com
For more information on Snowball Psychology you can go to:
patreon.com/snowballpsychology
beyondpsychologycenter.com/snowball
I talk with close friend and fellow psychotherapist, Lisa Chen.
Lisa is a friend and collaborator who runs a group therapy practice in Hermosa Beach. You can find her at: lisachentherapy.com
For more information on Snowball Psychology you can go to:
patreon.com/snowballpsychology
beyondpsychologycenter.com/snowball
It was only until I found my sense of who I was in my authentic life, that everything started snowballing in my career and my life. And I think I am on a trajectory that is far more successful than what my business career, ended up being. So I think that in order to get that snowball effect, you really need to find who you are and your inward sense of truth. Your inner truth, I really feel like I found home like in myself and in this career.
Speaker 2:I'm Stephen Bradshaw, and this is Snowball Psychology. Your snowball is your true life project. It starts with one single snowflake of intention that compounds into a snowball of vitality, authenticity, and yes, real world success. I'm a psychotherapist, executive coach, and founder of the Beyond Psychology Center. I'm Stephen Bradshaw. Which offers somatic therapy in California and coaching worldwide. This podcast is for people living on their growth edge. It's about how to kickstart your own snowball and keep it rolling. If you're inspired by this conversation, you can support us on Patreon, where you can get support for your own snowball. And don't forget to subscribe, review and comment. Welcome. Let's roll.
Track 1:Lisa F Chen. my head, I'm hearing a swear word in the middle there. Um, you're a gangster therapist. Um, I've seen you come up alongside me, and I've had a lot of respect for your path. And we share a lot of commonalities as well. We both worked in finance at you at Goldman, right?
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:was at Morgan Stanley and then Deutsche Bank as a trader. So I did both investment banking and then was a trader in arbitrage.
Track 1:Great You, your teeth in Wall Street, worked in a bunch of startups and did a lot of intense, uh, work.
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right. Hmm.
Track 1:shifted into this realm of clinical work, became a therapist, um, as did I. And I'm curious about that transition. I'm curious, this whole podcast is about how good things start small and that a snowball builds. And I'm interested where your current, uh, your current career path What was the moment where you thought, I can be a therapist? And. Committed to this.
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm. Okay. Well, there's a lot, a lot, um, a lot to answer, a lot to say about each of those things, but I'll try to keep it, um, short. Brief in a way, um, I. Yeah, I really enjoyed my business career. And it was one of those things where I would say a short answer to how I ended up becoming a therapist is that I really wasn't living my authentic life fully in, in business, and it's to say that I was doing really well and I was getting promoted and I was moving up the career ladder and, having a lot of people managing, really having a pretty sexy Career from a professional perspective, um, but as I climbed the ladder, I was searching for some internal satisfaction, some internal fulfillment, and as I kept going up the ladder, I became sort of more unhappy. With the state of my life and it was at as out of really simply desperation that I started turning to therapists, mental health support. And I would say that it was happening since my twenties. So it's been with me for a really long time and it wasn't until a real magical experience with a psychoanalyst. Maybe nine years ago that. helped me transform the way that I was looking in the world, the way that I was looking at my life and to be able to shed all of my defenses and the reasons why I was not living sort of what I call authentic life. And, um, and as I shed those layers away, all I had left was just, I want to really help people. And, um, and that's why I came into this career.
Track 1:Amazing. I want to zoom in right to that moment where something magical happened. slowed down and remember what exactly it was that helped you to make that shift.
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I, you know, it was just over time and it was a happenstance. I would say there wasn't any one moment. I think, you know, um, It was just like an aha moment, which I still can't really quite explain. Steve, I don't really know if I have like, uh, like a moment in time, I had been really discovering things about myself, but not really quite conscious of it, about it, but noticing that I was really much happier, able to say things, stay and do things that were consistent and, you know, receiving a lot of joy in my life where in the past. Some, some of my closest friends knew that I was struggling with severe depression, but, um, a lot of my colleagues didn't. And so this depression just lifted and it was sort of a coming, a parting of the waves. I was working at a startup that just had imploded and I was, you know, sitting on the beach, as we say in business or consulting, and it just came into my mind. To apply to school and thought this could be something I would really enjoy, especially because this is not just a career that can, um, be fulfilling personally, but it's something that I can carry through the rest of my life. And I applied, you know, it was fairly easy. The process was fairly easy. And then within a couple of months I was going to graduate school.
Track 1:Amazing. Was the psychoanalyst a different kind of person? anyone else up to that point?
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:You mean,
Track 1:something in the person themselves?
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I did see, you know, several psychologists, um, therapists before, and I hadn't really known the different modalities. Looking back, they were CBT or DBT or act driven. And I'd say the reason why the psychoanalysts really, you know, it was, it was eight or nine years of really being in the grind of the minutia of my life. So I would say it wasn't until, like, 4 years that things started really changing. It was like, there was, like, roots growing and you wouldn't see from the top if I were, you You wouldn't necessarily see the change until like four years later. And that type of, um, patients, you know, meeting with me three or four times a day with the type of struggles that I was dealing with and maybe repeating the same things. Um, the difference with the psychoanalyst is that she had incredible patients and Unconditional love and the way that she was allowed me this incredible space, which she didn't interfere with giving me any affirmations, um, any, you know, you know, judgments, it was just this open space to be with my emotions and feelings and my thoughts and this innate confidence that I would get through it. That was really quiet. And so, um, You know, in psychoanalysis is a lot about sort of redirecting and being with myself, and I think that's why it was so different with her. Um, she provide a steadiness, uh, really my first experience, I would say of a secure attachment and that consistency and that steadiness really has helped me tremendously and given me a chance to sort of go inwards.
Track 1:If I met you through that course of therapy, would you it was going to end up well and that your life was heading in this direction Or was that mysterious to
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:It was mysterious to me. I was really frustrated and, you know, trudging in the dark, not knowing what the point of, you know, my psychoanalytical psychoanalytical work was doing or helping. There are a lot of times when I just really wanted to quit. Um, but you know, if you even met me halfway through versus now, you would see a completely different person before your eyes. So now you could see
Track 1:the difference
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:uh, you would've seen, um, a person that didn't have depth, um, that was in a lot of pain and trauma and, um, really was surviving one small crisis to the next and really not having, um, a lot of insight into the emotional pain, but not much insight about what was causing it.
Track 1:So lots of the newer therapies promise very quick cures
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm.
Track 1:and I'm curious if that could have been done any quicker if it needed that time and do you feel that this quick promise of relief is often overstated
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah, I am so glad you asked that question. I do think long term therapy and consistent contact with somebody like a psychoanalyst or a therapist or a psychologist is really necessary and that for real change and, um, which is completely contradictory to a lot of, um, modalities and what's being talked about in, in this world today, I think everyone wants a quick fix. And certainly I did when I was in a lot of pain and, and, um, struggling, but really I think it's in the work it's in the day after day, long term work that you can reap significant benefits. And I think in some ways, um, this was my experience for me. And certainly if there are some people that come in, um, that want to work on a small little project. chunk of their life, they can probably get some, some benefit out of it, but it wouldn't be necessarily all the extraordinary benefits of what really good, deep therapeutic work can do and offer. I wish everyone would, would take the time to get to know themselves because this is a life we're leading is with ourselves.
Track 1:Hmm So If someone's halfway through and they are in that stuck place this is quite a common experience for both of us
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm.
Track 1:they might say things like I'm broken or this can't get better or I just know this is how it is how I am I'll never you know it'll never change do you reach for What what is handy in that type of moment
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I think it's the steadiness and validating their pain and their impatience. And, you know, they might touch parts of me that are impatient and there might be a part of me that's like, you know, you're right. Maybe we should throw in the towel. But I find the steadiness of understanding and reflecting their frustration of their, um, their struggle to stay in the struggle is, is the best thing that I can offer. And what I've offered To a lot of my clients. Um, when I have, you know, I've worked with a lot of different clients and with significant trauma and significant sort of dark places in their life. And when I've offered a hand up, it's never really quite worked. You know, they're looking, they're looking to be reinforced that they can do it. That they can survive their,
Track 1:Has
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:survive their frustration, patience, and their struggle. They can, they can work through their impatience. There's something to be said about the impatience.
Track 1:Yeah, so you don't give them a hand You let them you provide the safe space and give them time to find it themselves
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, it depends on the acuity, the severity of what my client is coming into. If, you know, if I have, I work with a lot of my range of clients go from very acute, um, clients that are in treatment centers and are, or significant personality disorders or schizophrenia. Yeah. To high functioning. And so for the high functioning, higher functioning adults and people that I see, I would really want to reinforce to be in, in that struggle and to offer space. But if there are clients on the other side where, um, they have, you know, they've had, they've been suicidal. There might be some floors in which I might set hope set for them. If that makes sense.
Track 1:since you named that wide range me curious Are there people that can't be helped Can everyone benefit
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm. I think that everyone can benefit from therapy. I, um, I know that classically people say like narcissists have a hard time being seen and doing the work, but, um, and that type of work is slow. In fact, I know a colleague, a psychoanalyst that is working with a narcissist client and even though it's slow and there is some progress. So I think that everyone can be really helped.
Track 1:Yeah So when people drop out are they giving up too soon that if they gave it more time something might happen
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I think so. I think, and I think it goes back to your, your point, Steve, about the, the pressure or the cultural phenomenon or the expectation that therapy is an instant fix. And if a person isn't fixed within 3 months or 6 months, um, Then something therapy just doesn't work or it's not working. But, um, I think it's really premature. Yeah, there's just so many factors, I would say for why people kind of drop out. And, um, I do, I guess I would really encourage a lot of my clients to stay in long term. And a lot of them have, so I don't know if I'm really answering the question, but.
Track 1:take a positive optimistic stance that you can get to health from any starting point
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah, I do. I do believe that. Yeah.
Track 1:How many people do you think are living fulfilling lives
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm.
Track 1:Do you think it's the norm Do you think it's scarce
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Well, I think there is this movement in this trend to sort of think about fulfillment and slowing down. Um, uh, And taking a look towards inwards, but I suppose it's what population you're taking a look at. So for example, you and I, and some of our friends and colleagues are I would say, working towards a fulfilling life, um, and really understand what fulfillment is for each one of us. But I would say for the most part, um, People haven't been sort of like the light bulb hasn't been turned on, I would say they haven't woken up to the idea that of what true fulfillment is. And I suppose it just depends on what other people think. But for me, fulfillment is like more not measured and external means like achievements or the status of a house or vacation. Um, you know, Or titles. I think it's more of the sense of fulfillment that when I'm in my deathbed that I'll have, I will have said, I'd look back and said, I have lived a really good life. So
Track 1:Uh So the light bulb uh is something to do with the way you experience what's happening not necessarily what's happening
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah, I think so. I think so. I think if you know what's ha what the way you experience, what's happening and having a sense of what, you know, matters, you could probably pursue the things. That might make your life more fulfilling. I don't know, what do you think? Can I turn that question on you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:most people are living on a version of the script that's had some minor updates that they were handed that is still not ready serving them And it's hard work to shift that And often you have to take major setbacks to move on to that path And people are not willing I think there's immunity to change They're committed to status to wealth and to really get into alignment with yourself I think often there's a hard decision to make when you moved into a therapist I'm sure there was some financial setback right
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah, yeah. I mean that from that perspective, I think if I, if my quiet desperation hadn't become so evident to me and, um, painful, I don't know if I would have, um, walked on the path to individuation. Um, I feel like my life. Was, I feel fortunate and also almost, I would say forced or compelled to go this path because I had been, um, pursuing that script that you talked about. And I was not getting that inner sense of fulfillment or joy and kept thinking something was wrong. And so I do, I do agree with a lot of things that you said. I think that the path. to differentiation and individuation is hard and, um, it requires sort of this introspection and self examination, that is, that is also time consuming. It might be easier just to turn on the TV and kind of numb yourself out and movies or books and media and, um, rather than turning the spotlight inside yourself. I like what you said. Yeah.
Track 1:something is is something that's syntonic or aligned with our culture but is really quite a toxic force I feel
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:if you're it's it's too passive
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm.
Track 1:It's not developing you you're you're and it's even more passive than reading Reading I think you you co create the world
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right. Right. Right.
Track 1:And so it's it's a drug that I I see it as a drug like Terence McKenna
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:know it's the drug that's the most socially acceptable and people are consuming in large quantities
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Like TV, social media. You know, I have some clients that are, Consumed and addicted to Tik TOK right now. I, I, I, for one, I'm very careful with TV, TV. I, I, especially after working so hard and so deeply with so many clients, most of the day, I'm really aware of how my emotions get manipulated by TV. And at the end of the day, I, I don't want to be manipulated, um, With, you know, a script that's on TV. That's not even real life. So I have really, I rarely watch TV these days.
Track 1:And knowing about the unconscious you're up on all of these images and stories and biases and messages
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:right. That's right.
Track 1:that becomes your thinking down the
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:That's right. Well, that's brilliant, Steve. That's so true. Do you watch TV?
Track 1:uh in moderation little bits
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:stay in touch
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Stay in touch. What about you and social media
Track 1:I actually removed myself off social media? maybe four months ago five months ago And The cravings have come down I hardly think about it now
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Oh, that's wonderful.
Track 1:I can't say I'm missing much
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:I think direct experience is what really matters
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're right. It's so,
Track 1:you Yeah
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:how about me? Social media, my social media. So I'm like a quiet social media consumer. I am embarrassed to say that I'm always on Facebook, but it's actually to get information. Um, it's more like networking, like therapists, like learning about how other therapists are treating their businesses or working with clients. Instagram. I'm, I'm, I'm not on it. Um, It's just sort of catching up with other people or the people that I follow, but I rarely post. Um, and TikTok, I'm really trying to understand that beast, but for the most part, I feel so grateful because the algorithm hasn't, that hasn't caught on to my interests. So I think it's because they don't, they know so little of me that TikTok has so little meaning for me. So. Yeah. There's so many traps as we're talking about it, that can divert us from this path of individual individuation or differentiation. It's all like, it's almost like junk food. Like I love my potato chips, but it's all like, you can't have too many potato chips, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Track 1:to go after without delivering the substance or the nutrition right
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. I like that. Yeah.
Track 1:I'm I'm curious about the range of clients that you named there from schizophrenic to high functioning
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Uh huh. Oh,
Track 1:that people who claim to be happy are less happy than they claim and people who claim to be unhappy are less unhappy than they claim Everyone's closer to the norm than we realize And some of it is kind of how the view that you're taking on your own life in some ways And yeah I wondered are high functioning people as high functioning as they seem on the outside Since you get a view
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:no,
Track 1:don't
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I mean, I think most a lot of people who are high functioning. often have unresolved trauma and maybe look like sort of some version of me, very highly successful. It's super intelligent. Not to say that I'm those values, but the high functioning people are so like, just really, they're so, they're so, um, intelligent and, um, you know, they have the resources to, to come to therapy week after week, but there it's almost an existential. Um, unhappiness, they're, they're flying almost too close to the sun and they're not feeling happy at all. Um, I think in many ways,
Track 1:them miserable
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:you know, it's, it's like the, the, the, the typical stories that feel like, um, True. Like, um, despite all the money or external achievement, they're still having problems in their marriage or they become workaholics and their relationships are suffering with their children. Um, or even just that's that story of I've been able to buy my mansion in Manhattan beach and build it. And yet at the same time, my personal life is falling apart or it didn't, it didn't translate into this happiness that I expected this longterm happiness. I think, isn't there, isn't there some studies, Steve, about like how long, if you end up buying something, how many days it actually makes you happy before you start wanting something else. Like there's, I forgot what the days are, but it's very short lived.
Track 1:I've seen things like that hedonic adaptation
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yes.
Track 1:to what we
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some of my most high functioning and I'd say privileged clients are really the most unhappy. Most unhappy.
Track 1:Interesting Do you think in one sense that it's the success of an early adaptation that they probably had some trauma in their family Maybe it wasn't narrativized but maybe their mother was just anxious or working a lot Something was there they decided I'm going to work really hard to succeed
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:set up in a in a way that doesn't look like my family
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right.
Track 1:And then they they they bet everything on that and they they go all the way and they really succeed
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right. Right,
Track 1:narrow area And there are lots of other things that haven't been attended to Maybe relationships for instance
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:right, right. I like what you're saying. Yeah, I would say that, um, that's true. I mean, I don't think that the myth of having it all is not quite true. I mean, it's, it's just a myth. And if, if, if you spend all your time focusing on your And achieving that external, like that achievement, the other, other areas, I mean, frankly, suffer, you know, maybe your health, um, relationships. And so, um, it's, it's not like it's, I think it's a zero sum game, you know, we have 24 hours a day. How many days are you focusing on your career, um, versus your family, your own self development, your own health. And often I find a lot of business professionals, and I would say. Successful business professionals, um, have something unresolved and they're using business as a means to, um, there's a belief that being really successful in business is a way to heal and once they. close to that point, they still have those inner wounds, you know? So it's like what you said, a mom, an anxious mom, you know? Um, and so a client can be achieving success to create a better environment or to, or, you know, a client dealing with growing up with poverty and, you know, using that as a drive to never. Feel the sense of starvation, but even that sense of wealth and abundance doesn't take a, take away from that neglect or that the scarcity of resources in, in the child. In fact, you know, so there's like some emotional health wounds that have to be really addressed. It's interesting though, cause I have, you know, some of my, It's not to say that all business professionals are really unhappy. I just say that there's, there's, you know, I think when I've seen some senior executive executives, they're still dealing with anxiety, stress, burnout, um, depression, um, maybe a loss of meaning in their lives because they thought this was the meaning of their life, you know, so they'll come in shapes and forms.
Track 1:think that's so interesting what you said that business people achievement to heal themselves in some sense or make
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:then they're trying to solve something with a solution that isn't designed to do that It's just not going to
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:right. It's that, you know, that, that phrase, and I love this, uh, that concept of external locus of control versus internal locus, like we're, we're trying to control our inward feelings by managing externally what's going on. So we're so externally focused on achievements, work. wealth as a way to fix something that's going on with us in words. And so, you know, I do see a lot of really, frankly, highly, highly functioning, very successful people, you know, stuck with that problem and having a very limited access to, um, Unless I've done tremendous therapy, you know, a lot of internal work, really not even spending much time emotionally, like inwards and really understanding what makes them tick. Yeah. I'm so curious about your experience because I know you work with a lot of business professionals too. Does any of this resonate with you?
Track 1:Yes it's it reminds me of Tolstoy's happy families are the same and every unhappy family is unique Business people tend to have a similar psychology I've found the higher levels that you know and maybe it's similar even to top sports people I've noticed some similarities there
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm. Mm
Track 1:dimensionality about them
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:hmm.
Track 1:and they're craving depth but it's they've never found access to
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah, that's, that's, that's, and it's, it's so interesting that you say that because I, I, I really like my highly functioning people in business, but it's like, I find them sort of more set back and understanding that the depth, their depth is more, you know, one dimensional as opposed to my severely, my, my schizophrenic. You know, clients there, there's so much there where they're multidimensional. They have to deal with all sorts of different types of feelings. yeah, yeah,
Track 1:the world more as it is than people who may be depressed appear healthy but they are living in delusion to some extent schizophrenic may be in touch with more reality more internal psychic reality
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting working with, um, the different, I mean, I think when I first came into this, um, profession, I thought immediately, Oh, it makes a lot of sense for me to work with highly functioning people, especially from business, given my background and it'd be so fulfilling and joy. And it's, it's taking me a sense of like, uh, readjustment in a way I do really still like working with them, but I was very much like them. You know, 10 or 15 years ago where I just was really externally focused and it took me quite a bit to understand the depth of to explore and develop my sense of self. Um, and that's what I, I have to remind myself cause I was actually surprised. I'm like, why aren't these people like me, like, where's their depth of understanding and their, their, their, the depth of emotions. And then I had to take a step back and realize it's taken me quite a. Years of hard work to get to where I'm at. So,
Track 1:Interesting yeah. So you are um quite unique in that way Uh you're very successful and you take care of business and you're probably the hardest working therapist I know of in LA
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:aside from you,
Track 1:yeah maybe we we compete
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:we compete
Track 1:Um uh and then
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm-Hmm?
Track 1:also a kind sincere person with a rich inner life who's already nourished and developed that inner life
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Uhhuh.
Track 1:there's a dichotomy Sometimes it appears as money on the one side or meaning on the other side And society tends to push you into one of those poles
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:right?
Track 1:it's very hard in society to be successful and tend to your inner life I
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:then I have other on the other side I work with a lot of creative people who have incredibly rich inner lives haven't put points on the board
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm
Track 1:moved their careers forward
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:hmm.
Track 1:in terms of the outer life
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Why do you think that is? I'm so interested because I don't work with a lot of creatives. Why is that the case? Oh,
Track 1:and you build off of it it takes a lot of time to develop and it's very complex and you can get lost along the way and it can be hard to build an actual crystallized life structure Especially if there's some patterns embedded in how you operate such as dissociation and using substance and uh developing a really rich inner world that is a little bit separate to reality that isn't very well integrated and grounded. Often I've noticed creative people had a period of sickness when they were young. They were bedbound for a while
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Wow.
Track 1:withdrawn for some reason and an inner life was given a chance to develop
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Wow. Yeah. What's that?
Track 1:when we can help them develop into the world and succeed the world becomes much richer So I think there there are, two categories that I'd notice a lot. I have a tagline actually for this helping the Successful be soulful and the soulful be successful
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Oh, I like that. You are so good with words. That's a good one. That's a good one. That's a good one.
Track 1:work in each of them is working at what they are lacking in
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Do you think that hardship drives, uh, a reason for soulfulness? Hmm.
Track 1:Yes Where the mental break becomes a mental breakthrough I think that often often you have to and a they say you have to hit rock bottom right
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:a certain level of loss and pain forces you to come to terms with Aspects of yourself that need to be included
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. It's sort of interesting. Cause when we talk about professionals and, you know, executives, they've gone through some type of failure or business failure. Um, and I wonder, you know, what is, what becomes the lightning rod for them to develop a sense of soulfulness or introspection?
Track 1:Yeah. what do
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah
Track 1:I mean I'm assuming they're coming to you looking for that but not knowing the words
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. I mean, well, a lot of, there's a, there's a couple of people that way. Um, And it's usually just, you know, actually I have a young professional that is doing this and she was, has done really well and she just sort of got more and more depressed. And so it's been a question of slowing down and turning inwards. Um, I suppose I haven't figured, I haven't cracked this formula yet because, you know, I like to sort of group all these business professionals, but when I think about it, they're all in different states, you know, like there are some business professionals that have done a lot of therapy and, um, there are some business professionals that don't have any sort of insight about themselves, um, I think it's like the, a lot of the business professionals that come originally for me is not about like finding a deeper sense of meaning. They're coming because they're getting stressed, burnt out or depressed, and they don't necessarily know why. So it's a longer journey.
Track 1:can attain a book called What Got You Here Won't Take You There by Malcolm Goldsmith And uh I think you can get early success by ignoring depth ignoring aspects of yourself and very strategic and maybe even a Machiavellian to some extent And then that eventually starts to burn out and you're you're not feeding the deeper parts of yourself and you run out of energy or you get a health problem something breaks down And um there's an allure to doing that I think a lot of business people like Steve Jobs by being almost anti psychological in a
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:They were able to cut through and create a success And then I think
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Track 1:creative client I won't mention what field and he he expresses being uh an entertainer not a artist and that he intentionally doesn't let himself get too high on his own supply or in love with his own work He stays very professional And that allows him to succeed where other artists or people calling themselves artists get um they lose the connection with the audience They lose product market fit They get their inner life takes them in other directions and it takes too long to integrate everything that they unfold
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:hmm.
Track 1:And so there's you can take that quick path to success but then I think it's it's inevitable that it breaks down
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right. Right. I think that's true. I'm just thinking as you are talking about it, and then I have a follow up question for you. I I get updates from my business school classmates and our magazines or email updates. And there are so many stories, you know, at my age now where people have become really successful, retired when they were 40, um, or, you know, in different areas, they've climbed to really the top tops of their, Uh, careers, and there are more stories of, you know, I really wish I had spent time with my kids. I really wished, you know, my health is now in poor, poor state. And it's almost like they were so externally focused and gave no chance for internal, this internal reflection of like, what are my sort of softer values that I'm softer goals that I want in my life. And they're sort of reaching at the end of the game and looking back and saying, Oh, geez, I might've played this game wrong. You know, um, and so my question to you is though, like, you know, we're talking about this internal inward, inward focus of the creatives versus maybe the external focus of some of these high achievers, you know, and where do you think the mix is between the two? What do you think is, um, a good balance or is, and is that possible? Is that possible to achieve? Mm
Track 1:hard to get everything in one place
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:hmm. Mm
Track 1:and with careers
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:hmm.
Track 1:And I for myself I want to balance caseload where I have both And I think you've come to a similar point listening to you
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:even with humans I think it's nice to have I have my flaky artistic friends and my solid less creative friends and they balance
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:That's true. That's interesting. Yeah. So you create the balance. You're intentional about the balance.
Track 1:It's probably more unconscious than conscious
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:And we live a little bit out of balance
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm.
Track 1:the stage of our career
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:you know quite engaged in the process of setting up and you know seeing a lot of clients
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:That's true
Track 1:friend Yeah. and I actually think That's part of a trend where there's less investment in social community
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely true.
Track 1:I think we're at a point in civilization where it's got really desperate It's really hard out there
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:To develop a balance.
Track 1:in survival mode a lot of the
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. There's no time for social community.
Track 1:Yeah.
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:And often it it's social community starts to get tied to things where there's money exchange
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah Mm-Hmm.
Track 1:hard to just do things for purely social reasons For instance we're often involved in trainings where
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:aspect and you get given a certificate at the end that helps your career
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if other countries are doing it better. I know your, your, your Europe is Europe does it?
Track 1:Europe is the place Europe is the place to live for lifestyle and America is the place to make the money And I Yeah. at some point I would love to incorporate Europe more into my
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah
Track 1:they really get living
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:What do you think
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I think,
Track 1:about Asian countries as well
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:oh, geez. Um. I definitely think there's like, we, we're definitely part of a rat race here. And America is like bigger is always better and more is better, you know, like health and wellness, the healthier you are. If you're vegan, if you're gluten free, like it's like more, more, more, more, right. And how about, you know, a balance? How about some balance into our life? So I don't feel like, um, this, our culture allows for sort of balance in our life, um, as much. Um, I, you know, in Asian cultures, I think there is an equal, equal sense of, um, and I'm only speaking of Taiwanese and Chinese cultures because it's my culture, you know, but there is a sense of really hard work. Um, Like there's almost even, uh, this lack of intense inward focus too. I think it's getting better, you know, um, mental health and introspection is really important over time, but there is incredible pressure, I think, in Asia to do well.
Track 1:Interesting
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:what are the side effects of that
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Well, I think disconnection. Like, you know what you had said, um, stress, burnout, depression, I'd say failed marriages, strained children, strained relationships with children. And I mean, I even see this in my work in, in Los Angeles, um, parents have done really well, but somehow wasn't really perfectly attuned for their child. And now their child is actually growing up with a lot of problems, you know? So I think, um, this, this idea of working really hard, um, without sacrificing, without being able to sacrifice, working hard without having any consequences, negative consequences is, um, not true. I think people believe it, but it's, there, there are always consequences for our actions that we take.
Track 1:And so we're all in a bind around
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I find myself in a bind. I don't know how you feel about it, but like you said, we are setting up our practice and I think I've told you and shared, shared that I actually have a problem like declining work. And I find traits of workaholism that came from my, my corporate life feeding into my Life as a clinician, um, and, and really when I'm spending all this time with my clients, really being with them, where is the, you know, how am I dedicating time to my inward sense of self? Like what's, you know, the inward exploration, not that I don't experience and grow with my clients, you know, if I let my clients touch me in the way that want them to, but where's my time? You know, where's my time?
Track 1:That's interesting I'd like to explore the aspect where it feels almost I would say every single client is working one of my edges in some
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Uh huh. Mm hmm. Mm
Track 1:speak almost like I'm listening to a voice in my own head that's familiar And as they make progress it feeds back to me I my own psyche is updating Do you feel
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. I definitely do. I definitely do, but my schedule today, my schedule as it is today, like I think I was talking to you about it, like I'm working six days a week and having one day today is my day off and, um, it's such a treasure and luxury for me to go to hot yoga for an hour and a half. And I'd like to have more of those times. For myself, um, and it's, it's probably driven by self care, um, but a chance to just be with myself and. All my parts, but you're right. I, I do really learn a lot from my clients. Um, especially in couples and a lot of my clients, some of them really, when they, when they're growing, I sort of grow with them. So it really is such a pleasure to work with them because I feel like I'm growing myself. I think it's more. The conscientious or intentional effort, the time that I'm the quiet space that I, I so often ask my clients to have is something that is really just not as easy for me, given perhaps the stage that we're in. Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:the positive know when you are with a client So yeah I relate to that But I also wonder one of my questions for you was what helps you to see clients than most therapists
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm.
Track 1:work in a way that is closer to home or is less effortful
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Track 1:your energy in a way that allows for seeing many people Is that fair
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah, that's a really complicated question. Like I have a complicated answer, but I would say nearly, you're right. I do see probably, well, both of us see someone asks you the same question. Both of us see quite a bit of clients more than the average. And, um, you know, um, and I do believe that I'm able to stay present with every client and, and, um, they, they generally stay with me over time. I think that my ability to, to be with the clients is a result, a direct result of my psychoanalytic work. Um, I have such awareness of my internal state of being and the ability to know when there's noise in my head, to know how to clear it. And maybe that isn't also in conjunction with my meditation, um, and my yoga practice. I, I'm, um, I'm really constantly. Really listening with a sense of depth and understanding. So, um, I would say that is like the foundation of how I can see so many clients and then some of it is like practically somatic, you know, really, I really subscribe to a, to do the work that we're doing and, um, and the amount of, Clients that I see on a weekly basis, I really have to be diligent and disciplined about my time, meaning and my self care. So I'm really eating nutritious meals. I'm not, you know, maybe one day a week I'm having pizza, but it's, it's all like. Very much enriched with vegetables, salads, salmon, um, very rare potato chips, you know, and some really conscious about my nutrition, what I'm drinking, and then really the foundation for my work is, you know, um, some type of exercise. Like I really have to do something to help me keep my body primed for, um, the work that we do, even though we're sitting, it requires such, so much energy. So
Track 1:the sense of a psychological athlete that
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I agree, I agree.
Track 1:all the energy
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:It is, it is. And I'm like, you know, and I have a routine and a ritual. And unfortunately, you know, um, some of the prices I paid is like, I'm very. I'm, I, I'm very, um, disciplined and even seeing my friends during the week, I know that even if I might be free from like seven o'clock to 10 o'clock, I'm really not, I'm choosing to spend that time to decompress and be with my thoughts and. Not watching TV as we talked about not watching social media, you know, just kind of being being with myself and being with the silence. Almost every day I take a bath, you know, with magnesium and lavender. And so it is true. It's almost like the psychological athlete that in order to be there for my clients in the best possible way. Um, because I don't know, like, you know, this, we don't know what we face when we walk into that session. Um, we don't know if we're faced with something, a client's doing well, or a client is dealing with a crisis and we just have to be prepared for everything. So, um, yeah, so I think it's like, you know, my psychological, I do believe that my personal therapy actually makes me a really good clinician. And then, um, and the way that I sort of conduct my life, um, outside to prepare for this, for the work we do is what helps me. Um, and I suppose that I do have, I've developed a lot of different tools in my toolbox, you know, I have had, you and I love trainings. And so the benefit of it is sometimes. It might be, you know, an approach that internal family systems makes more sense or EMDR makes more sense. Um, there are different, um, couple couples, you know, approaches and modalities that I might use and have, have, have that in my back pocket. So I think all these sorts of things make me versatile, but I think there's a sense of like, to manage the caseload that I do have is it's almost like resilience, like, you know, and how do you prepare for it? How do you do it?
Track 1:so you Yeah. Yeah. relate
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:cut a lot of indulgences
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah
Track 1:I do identify as an athlete
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah Yeah.
Track 1:This when I was an athlete as a rock
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:your life becomes kind of narrower
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:you get better
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. I do.
Track 1:start to realize Oh I'm just going to these three places. I'm rotating around a very small little circle
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:It's so true. Right. It's so true. It's, it's almost like, uh, Yeah, my aperture has narrowed and it's really, it's a, I feel like I've left, I'm leading a seclusive life in many ways, um, for my work, for my work. It's a conscious decision for me, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Track 1:nutrients is coming through your office Almost like we we have our feet in the stream Other people live in the village a little further back And because that's so rich then you can make sacrifices in other areas because you're getting fed by that
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah. That's exactly right. I like that. I like that metaphor. What does your schedule like? What do you think helps you with your, are you, are you, um, scheduling exercise in or quiet negative space for you? How are you, how are you managing your schedule? I'm really curious.
Track 1:Yeah so I I started to skip on exercise and focus more on yin type activities
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Uh,
Track 1:baths doing a lot of neurofeedback uh which we talk
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah.
Track 1:uh, And meditation and qigong
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm.
Track 1:uh my actually my acupuncturist said to me you should exercise your body's you're not moving enough qi with what
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Oh
Track 1:And uh yeah. I started to realize job we are at risk of becoming quite sedentary and you know physically
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah
Track 1:so now I've I've picked climbing back up in the last couple of
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Oh, that's good. Thank you.
Track 1:my energy is better It's good
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah, that's really good. That's good to know. I, I, I feel like if exercise is not a component of what we do. I think it's really hard to be fully present and recharge. I've been reading that, um, I, I'm going to screw up her name, but she's the author of burnout. I just finished reading burnout, um, which is a great book. And she had a concept of completing the stress cycle and, um, and that every day, like back in the days, uh, when there were lions and we were cavemen, if a lion came up to us and then was shot or died, we would, we would have the stress of it, but to be a natural sort of curve, uh, uh, an ending, a reconciliation of. Completion of the stress cycle, maybe we'd share it with friends, um, or family, but in this day we're, we're living the sense of chronic stress. And so her theory is that you need to complete the stress cycle every day and her suggestions through somatic work, you know, either some type of exercise. Breathing, um, a body scan and that we should be diligent about it because we are not confronted with life or death decisions, but our brain doesn't know it. And so the completion of we, we need to think about completing the stress cycle every day in order to rid ourselves of that chronic stress. So I really embraced that fact, yeah. Do you? Yeah.
Track 1:then meditating and feeling my nervous system shift
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:a good combination I've
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm. I should try that. Yeah. I love that.
Track 1:Picking up on something you said earlier it's interesting how we don't know what's coming at us Yeah. every session
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right.
Track 1:there are big surprises Right.
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:it to be something and it's not at
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right. Right.
Track 1:on that And maybe that's why it's self care is needed to have the level of energy and presence to confront that much uncertainty hour after hour after hour big burden in that and it's Unless you actually do it you don't appreciate just how know we're never on stable ground We're always confronting newness continually
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right.
Track 1:a lot to learn to to accustom to
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right. Right. It's that sense of agility too. Having to be agile and fluid with what comes your way. You know, I find when I, if I'd gone out the night before or stayed up late, I'm not as nearly prepared to, um, see the tectonic plates shifting, you know, in the course of like, uh, the course of the day with my clients. So, yeah.
Track 1:interesting the way you said that Uh when I did a trip and I made a little video of it some years
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Uh huh. Yeah,
Track 1:Missing cues Someone would say something and I would still be responding to the previous thing they said Or I would be missing that they facial expressions changed
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah.
Track 1:didn't and I didn't even know it at the time It was only in looking at the footage that I realized that
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right.
Track 1:And then it makes me wonder how much does that still happen How much am I missing
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:It is. It's so interesting from that perspective. Yeah. I, um, I, you know, as, as attuned as a therapist, I think you and I are both are. I bet we miss out on a lot still, you know, just the cues just in the normal is just probably the That is what it is to be human, I suppose, you know.
Track 1:Do you think clients are Broadcasting one thing I've heard this called the manifest content versus the Latin content
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm.
Track 1:think the session is about one thing but then there's a deeper communication
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:they're hoping you're going to pick up on that even though they don't know what it is
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, well, that would be psychoanalytic or depth focused. Right.
Track 1:Yeah. Or you think Yeah. your IFS I know you are pretty far along with IFS the um thinking about other parts that may be communicating below the dominant part
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah Yeah, that's true. That's definitely true. I think. And I think, you know, just kind of going back to, um, what you were saying earlier, if we're not fully present, we might just see the protective parts of the dominant parts and not really notice that there might be a deeper sort of a hidden part still at play and wanting some attention or communication, you know? Yeah.
Track 1:You know an EMDR uh facilitator once said to me I asked the question um, you know the client's not accessing any emotion even when they tell the story about this bad thing that happened it very level. And she said him to say it again much slower And we did that And you know The emotion just appeared It was quite remarkable Just by slowing down more
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Wow. I have to incorporate that. That's, that's a, that's a great, that's a great suggestion. Yeah.
Track 1:maybe even do that again the next time Or you know
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:the normal flow of conversation I think we don't maybe take enough liberties as therapists
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:social convention
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yep. I totally agree with you on that. Yeah. Hmm.
Track 1:gears what is your favorite in therapy or type of client situation or what is very enlivening for you
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:That's so hard to say. Cause that's like, you know, talking about internal family system, there's so many parts they get nourished. But different types of clients. So I don't know if like, there are, there's like, you know, a certain type of, was it, was it your question, a certain type of client or, or what just gets me excited?
Track 1:the work here where where's the spark Where where do you come alive
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm. Well, this is, this is probably a difficult, embarrassing thing to admit, but I really like working with people that are, their defenses are already down and they're in the thick of their exiles or their vulnerability. Um, there, there must be some bias that I have towards that, but I think it's, we can do some really beautiful work. When some of the defenses are down. And so clients that I've worked with for a really long time, um, that, that feels really nourishing and kind of exciting because I have the history and there, my concept of conceptualization of who they are and their psyche is so rich because I've had, All these interactions. And so I can really relate to them on a deeper level. So I would say long term clients, um, really are nourishing to me and, um, clients that are really, dealing with trauma or depression, a really severe sort of manifestations of mental health problems. They, they can be the most challenging and yet the most fulfilling, um, types of work for me. I can't necessarily do it all the time. Like when I think about my full caseload, if I were to, if I were to fill the caseload with all those types of clients that might be coming from the treatment center or schizophrenia, that would be a lot for me to deal with. But I really find a sense of, um, joy, um, in working with them partly because I sort of understand what pain feels like. They've been to, I can relate to where they bet they are. Um, given my own personal experience and I want to provide that steadiness and that space and that hope that the quiet hope, you know, when they should show up every day, that there is another way out. So I'd say those are the two areas that really bring me joy.
Track 1:I appreciate your answer that almost like fine wines that get better your clients mature and gets richer
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that long term therapy really gets me. Um, I feel like there's a lot of meaning and a lot of transformation that can happen. Um, the, the areas that I, you know, I'm happy to do, cause it's interesting. It gives me diversity are more, more the solution focused. There there'll be sometimes that are shorter in nature. Um, and that's what actually couples therapy ends up being. It's much shorter in nature than individual therapy. Although there are some long term couples that I work with and that's been a real joy working with them too.
Track 1:How is couples work different to individual work
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Well, geez, it's so different. Um, well, I mean, as you, as you know, I'm treating the relationship, not the individuals, um, and, um, There's a system, there's a lot of energy that's being tossed around, a lot of sometimes arrows thrown at each other and sometimes thrown at me, and to, to really step back and sort of notice and Keep an eye of what's actually being said and what, you know, the deeper meaning what's actually happening and then to be able to timely intervene with them with both practical, um, interventions and sort of a more long term sort of roadmap. It's pretty challenging. It's challenging and exciting. It can be really a dynamic session. Whereas, you know, one client, an individual, we might just sit there and, um, Completely in silence or, um, really focus on one minute part of their lives for that entire session. The sessions just tend to go a lot faster in couples therapy. Um, there are a lot of, um, feelings. If you think about it from parts work, there are a lot of exiles that come up and then firefighters step in, protectors step in. And it's really from my work as disarming or recognizing That an exile has stepped into the room, um, in couples therapy and learning how to regulate or sort of, um, reduce the protectors, um, attacking each other so that there can be a sense of connection. Yeah.
Track 1:more protector attacks going
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:an individual
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:you mind just defining protector and exile just for people who don't know
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, in internal family systems, we conceptualize there are different parts to everyone, and it can be, it could be, um, and just parts to just give a quick metaphor is, um, Um, we could be driving the bus and that's a sense of self, but there could be a lot of parts, um, that are passengers in our bus. And so there could be like a really good girl that's sitting there quietly and studying. It could be the rebel rebel, like, um, hanging out in the back and there could be the social parts. And in truth, like every person has all these different parts I have. Um, and so different parts sort of working together in the system to protect the self. Um, an exile is generally those, those are the ones that we really want to put away and for safekeeping. And yet they really need our attention. We, we try to ignore those exiles. Shame is an exile or the, you know, um, the little girl that hasn't been seen and wants, that craves love. And when those access kind of show up in our system, like, let's just say, um, I'll give you an example. Let's say like I've been calling you, Steve, and like, um, I've been calling you and calling you and you haven't responded me. You said, I've been so busy. I'm so busy. I'm so sorry. What?
Track 1:Oh it's the other around
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:And let's just say it like, let's just say it's, you know, this way where I'm calling you and I'm feeling a little rejected. And then I find out that all this time you've been having like all these social parties and barbecues and hikes, these fabulous hikes. And you've been saying that you're busy to me and I can feel excluded. So an exile can come up in me of like, I'm unlovable. Um, I'm not seen, I, no one wants to be my friends with me that being an exile that would step in. So there are these protector parts that might try to manage that feeling of I'm unlovable, you know, and so I might just end up depending on the, the strength of the protector. So if I'm really feeling stung. So let's just say you're, you're no longer a friend of mine, but you're maybe a romantic interest of mine. And like, I like really want to date you and I felt really stung. I might end up drinking to feel better. Right. And that's a firefighter or I might, um, dive into workaholism so that I can ignore the feeling of I'm unlovable. Or I might call a lot of my other friends to sort of prove that I'm lovable. So those are protector parts that kind of get in the way of, um, the exiles. Because what we want to do is actually treat and talk to the exiles of I'm unlovable and really speak and listen to that part and witness their, their burdens. So, yeah,
Track 1:including the firefighters and managers
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah,
Track 1:Protecting some cold wounds some emotional pain
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah,
Track 1:And then in the couple sessions you're seeing those protectors go to war against each
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right. Right. Right. Where, and you know, it's, um, uh, yeah, they're, they're going to war and, um, they're not even recognizing. So suddenly, um, a couple that loves each other can really go from a loving partner to being their worst enemies and entering a boxing ring because they're, they're protecting their own individual. emotional pain at all costs, you know, through anger, through defensiveness. It's, you know, another way to look at it is like we have, um, this concept of an open heart versus closed heart. And so connection and real, real intimacy is allowed when there's an open heart, but the other protectors or defenses can kind of get away to close our heart. And it could be just a nice, Or armor, but the armor can also be prickly too. It could be throwing daggers. It could be armed with sort of nuclear grenade or nuclear bombs or grenades to, to sort of keep the other person out from hurting, hurting us. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff that goes on in, a session more than individual therapy at times.
Track 1:Yeah. sometimes I feel when I've I don't do many couples now but I did in the past and I would feel like I was in the relationship fight that you need a certain level of tolerance for conflict I
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think when I first got trained in couples, like I had, I had learned at my, my practicum site that it was really hard to get in couples tracks. So I was like, of course I want to try it. Cause I have this high achievement part of me, you know, want to try the toughest things. And, and when I first walked into my couples, I felt frozen, like this inner child, like suddenly seeing my parents fighting and not really knowing what to do or wanting to solve problems. So it takes a lot of practice. One of the things I'm really enjoying and I feel like internal family systems, um, I'm getting trained in, um, intimacy from the inside out. And sort of, it's a, it's a couple's therapy that's based on IFS. I find that. This type of work is great to do intensively. So as an example, I have been seeing this couple that has been childhood sweethearts during their late forties. They're, they're always about to kill each other and they've run through four couples therapists and then came to me, um, the last couples therapist fired them and I realized soon, soon enough, like there's so much protection that was happening between the two of them that, you know, it could escalate. Very, very, it become very heated and then it'd be directed towards me. And since I've shifted to seeing them, uh, twice a week, it's really gotten us some progress so that there can be some trust to let them speak from their, for their exile parts. It's been kind of an incredible experience actually.
Track 1:interesting So more contact more safety and then you can get below the protective
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if you can imagine like, if there's just once a week therapy, there's enough exiles come out, protectors come out, and then the next week the exile kind of learns like they might be more in danger and the protectors might become more armed. So you know, it's, it's much harder to do that progress on a once a week basis I've seen. It's a different definite style from my own sort of individual approach, which is really more, I guess, very much inspired by my psychoanalyst, which is very, um, gentle and kind and, and patient and, you know, creating that holding space to one where in couples therapy, I'm a lot more interactive. Now, It's, it's actually where I really do, I think really good work is when couples, you know, there are a couple of couples that are, that are void. If both couples are, if both partners are avoidant, the quiet, sensitive clinician, me really does well with that. Or if they're working with highly sensitive people, you know, in couples, but there are some couples that have high conflict and they really need a lot of, um, intervention and disruption to keep. Themselves regulated. I've learned. Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:What are the fights usually about
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Um, you know, the fights, the fights are just the small things, but they symbolize a lot, you know, like, um, yeah,
Track 1:I I heard every fight is, basically uh one attachment style versus another
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:exactly.
Track 1:is just coming down to a core conflict
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yes. Yes. I agree. The rest is details, just content. And so, yeah, that's what I love about IFIO. We, we sort of use the content or the latest argument to sort of discover what parts are activated. And so it's sort of a deeper experience than just looking at attachment, you know, like avoidant versus anxious or too anxious attachments, although seeing things from an attachment basis is really. is really helpful and actually explaining it to couples when they're first starting. They don't understand attachment. Um, it's, uh, yeah, that is a really good, I often see a lot of parents and I don't know if you see the pairings of like anxious versus avoidant anxious and avoidant. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:same with that setup Yeah.
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:And do you find yourself taking a side do you find yourself relating
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I mean, I think, I think it's only human, you know, I want to say the, the, the good therapist answer to say, yeah, no, I'm always looking at the relationship. There are times, you know, there are definite times where I might start thinking, um, um, one person is, is kind of right in this matter than the other. And
Track 1:is right
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I don't know. I don't know. What's an example. Are you thinking of something as an example?
Track 1:maybe one partner has a substance problem and the other partner is pointing that out
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:it it is something that that person needs to deal with regardless of what the other patterns
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. That that's true. I mean there, but you know, like I'm thinking of the couple that I'm talking about, um, the partner does have a substance abuse. There's some other things, um, that are going on in the relationship, but there is a dynamic that the other partner who isn't drinking is perpetuating the substance use. You know, does that make sense? Like, because, because yeah, there's a pattern. Yeah. There's always context, you know? So, um, I mean, if you think about it psychologically, somebody, um, We see a lot of people who have used substance use being paired with people that are very controlling, you know, and that's why Al Anon came about. Al Anon is saying that you're just as sick as the alcoholic. Um, you're looking to external control something else to take care of some type of internal need. So, yeah, I mean, I think that it's, it's generally helpful to think of, um, the patterns that are happening as a result of what's happening. I, I, I think in cases that there's domestic violence or emotional abuse or physical abuse, it's clearly there clearly is one person, you know, at fault. And that's where I'd probably say, thankfully, I haven't had too many cases of that. And generally, um, if there's domestic violence, it's like couples therapy is contraindicated. We want them to do individual therapy first cause it'd be too activating, you know, so yeah.
Track 1:I'm curious to come back to the question of fulfillment and fulfillment If people are getting there are you seeing with clients even other people doing inner work in other places Are you seeing actual lives change actual scenarios unfold that are different How much change actually is happening
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Hmm.
Track 1:talking about things
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:That's a really good question, and I think I probably would answer it with the idea that I haven't had my clients long enough, because if I come from the belief that it takes 9 or 10 years, which is the case for me to see true change and sort of. Fulfillment, I haven't been seeing my clients for 10 years yet, you know, um, but I have seen real shifts of people on their way to fulfillment. And I'm thinking about, you know, some of my clients that are in treatment center, the presentations of where they were at, where they were dissociating and in their trauma. To now being able to hold down a job and, um, attend group therapy and try to find, put some meaning into their lives of like, what does a job look like? Having a job, living, living, living away from his parents. So I have been able to see change, but I don't know if fulfillment is a state. A being, I almost feel like it's a desk. It's like a journey. It's not a destination. What do you think?
Track 1:Interesting Yeah Um
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I even wonder like, what do you like, what does, what does fulfillment mean to you? Mm-Hmm.
Track 1:to me it's when you're rolling you're in movement and you have what you need and the journey is uh in some
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm
Track 1:appreciate it and you're heading in a direction that feels good
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm-Hmm.
Track 1:better and better over time
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm-Hmm.
Track 1:then I think I think there's a tipping point when you feel like you're on that track
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:And then when you feel that then okay I'll still be working but now nothing has to fundamentally change for this for me to die You know
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah,
Track 1:you were saying on my deathbed to feel good about
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah. Yeah. Well, I like that.
Track 1:I I'm curious how many people get to that track and um yeah I think it's it's I think it's a particularly hard time in evolution of humans we live in a time of
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:where yeah there's a there's a crisis going on at a cultural
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right, right,
Track 1:so that I think it is harder for us to be in psychological health than hunter gatherers
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:right, right. Right. I would agree. I mean, yeah, I mean, I would agree. I would say also, you know, there's just so many distractions in our life. Like there's so many sort of addictions, like entertainment addictions, not like substance, but there's so many, there's so much choice for the social media, so many diversions that can take us down the path. Like we can travel a lot. We can go on vacation a lot, which would be very nice, but that could be a diversion from. Finding a state of fulfillment, right? If it's just to travel, just to travel, you know, so I just think there's so many diversions.
Track 1:Yeah I traveled for five years and had a lot of fun
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah,
Track 1:did not find deep meaning
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:really. Oh, I, I just, I always just had this fantasy that you did. This is how you came out. You're, you're, you're like my, my eight or nine year journey with a psychoanalyst got me to this point. And your five year traveling the world got you to this point, but maybe, maybe you were just, you were born this way, the sense of depth and understanding. Yeah. Uh huh. Mm hmm.
Track 1:It's possible I in my metaphor of the snowball I talk about snowfall before the snowball can form there needs to be enough potentiation
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm
Track 1:develops in the system
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm. Mm hmm.
Track 1:uh Doing exactly what I wanted to every day Reading what I wanted to Having the conversations I wanted to
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm.
Track 1:filled me up in some way Even though I didn't know I didn't have a direction It felt very directionless
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm.
Track 1:But it I think it increased my potential to then find a direction
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm. Yeah. What?
Track 1:I you know I was in rock climbing campgrounds and
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Are
Track 1:and you wonder did I pick the wrong crowd You know what is is this you know Are we you know are we in the right here Are we is this going well Or you know because there's a lot of um a lot of lowbrow
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:there?
Track 1:and conversations
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Are there? That's so funny. I guess I always have this. Again, I have all these fantasies of what your life was like. It's like you're living this Patagonia life and you're like saving the world. You're being with the world. You're having these esoteric deep conversations with other climbers, but I guess that's just a fantasy that I had. Yeah. Oh,
Track 1:as was my partner And I think we were still very contained in many ways even though we were allowing ourselves so much geographic range And then It was coming back psychological work that I realized Oh I can express myself more I can be in more contact with people I think people were threatening to me So I think there was some escapism in the travel
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I see.
Track 1:I think there was work to be done than just living that out
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Where did you do your work then, if I can ask you, your deep psychological work?
Track 1:Yeah um so psychedelic journeys I would say is one place
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm
Track 1:I think you You get some insights and some fresh energy
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:hmm. Mm
Track 1:I don't think you get everything there I don't think can
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:hmm.
Track 1:And then grounding that and integrating that into somatic work
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:a friend of through a somatic program and having him as a mentor like when I was asking was your psychoanalyst a special kind of person
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm.
Track 1:a special kind of person
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:could see in him aspects of that I wanted in myself He his creativity his willingness to keep things open
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Mm hmm. Yeah.
Track 1:I was probably a pretty frustrating client
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Were you?
Track 1:Um yeah I think in my family I have the reputation of being very prickly or defensive when I was younger And I think my parts wanted to really test and make sure that this was a valid viable thing we were doing but he stood up to the test
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Wow.
Track 1:think you know that is what you really want I think Someone who can you can unleash your full
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right, right, right, right, right. Which is, yeah, that, that, whatever that internal rage or, you know, fury that we have and yeah, I think I really much, very much like what you said about how, why your person was so special and maybe that sense of containment from my analyst, the idea that she could accept. That rage or the testing that I am also was a bad, I'm still kind of a bad tester. Like sometimes I'll be like, Oh, I want to go from four times a week to one time a week and then three times a week and two times a week. And, you know, then I eventually go back to attending going three times a week, but she allows for those different types of ways for me to test the frame and making sure that, um, that, you know, the feral cat in me. Is attended to, you know, that she doesn't sort of reinforce the frame, you know,
Track 1:Interesting
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:really, um, good.
Track 1:so flexible frame was helpful to you
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Which is kind of strange. Cause I'm, I'm sort of dealing with that with my own sort of practice. I sort of think that in many ways, I, I, I don't encourage a flexible frame, but the flexibility that she gave me has kept me in
Track 1:Interesting Yeah I'm I'm in some ways jealous of the quantity of therapy you've received my life feel like I've I've had to get a lot out of the few times I've had the space to do inner work And it often feels like I'm trying to do years of work in days or at a retreat And when I look around I see a scarcity of opportunities to work on yourself
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:and Yeah. I'm just really in touch with how few times it's almost like a ship that you only come into port know one or two times a year or there aren't that many opportunities for deep nourishment And I think that's why I made my career being a therapist because then I am living in the port I am constantly able to get there with clients
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:being a Yeah. as a recipient I could never justify the cost But if I'm earning then I'm I'm happy My my parts that need to be working and successful they're happy And so I can nourish other
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I like that. I feel like even though you, I mean, you haven't been as much as therapy, somehow you, you do have, you strike me as somebody I've always admired your sense of depth and the sense of. Yeah. who you are as a person and what drives you. It feels like even though, um, maybe you haven't felt like you've gone through a lot of therapy, you do kind of come across as somebody that has spent a lot of time. So, you know, you don't, maybe, maybe you didn't need to go through all the therapy that you think you did.
Track 1:interesting
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:I do think there's a lot to be said for living courageously
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Uh huh.
Track 1:and bootstrapping yourself and just putting yourself into situations where you're forced to grow
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Uh huh.
Track 1:and that that is its own developmental path when you
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:life as therapy
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. What situations did you put yourself in?
Track 1:I've been doing this podcast uh running a group last year
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:you know getting an office as soon as I was licensed um just going for it in
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:I think we share this that we both believe in skin in the game We both put ourselves out
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah we really do. It's not. I think there's so I think what I get so excited when I talk to you about our work together outside of this podcast is, is because there's a sense of like, there's so much passion that I think I share with you on, um, Um, The business of practice, helping other people. I mean, I think, you know, marrying meaning and also meaning and money, you know, like there's a sense of like, there's really a lot of interesting aspects of it and of all the things that I get from it is constant growth, constant growth, you know, pushing myself to, um, I think of hiring associates and. Running a group practice instead of a individual practice, you know, taking on training and deciding that I'm going to focus on couples. Like, I think all these things are, um, areas for us to grow. And it's almost like this other door doorway into myself opens. And it's kind of a beautiful experience that I get to, you know, embark upon.
Track 1:And something in me is just wondering if that can happen in many of careers, or if that's something very special about therapy that the meaning be married.
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I don't know. I mean.
Track 1:If you're a programmer for Apple
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I don't see, I think meaning has to be dealing with being a type of service or, um, service to others, at least that's what I sort of believe what meaning is. And so certainly, um, I think being a physician, any of the helper industries, I think is possible, like being a physician, um, you know, education. Yeah.
Track 1:I like that you're willing to define meaning quite specifically I I think some people try to argue whatever they're doing is meaningful some other people might look at it and say, if I would agree if that's worth doing I think meaning is ultimately tied to that which promotes life
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:I like that.
Track 1:and maybe also dealing with death in the case of a death doula things that serve the life process you know are you helping people eat well You helping people have good shelter Are you helping people enrich their inner life all of these things are they're not arbitrary things They're the the components needed for an organism to live in an environment
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Right,
Track 1:So you can't just invent just decide what you're doing is meaning It has to actually be meaningful from the outside in some sense
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:that. I like it. I really like that you expanded it just to helping other people, but it's more like, um. Advocating life and dealing with the life process. I really liked that definition of meaning for sure.
Track 1:Yeah. because then it can include you as
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah
Track 1:only about the other
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. So, I mean, from, from, I guess you answered your own question that there are many other careers than professionals that can add to this place, you know?
Track 1:Yeah. most of those aren't modern careers you know if you want to be a cobbler or you know I guess a chef could be viable But you know, a of these are harder career
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:obvious choices like lawyer programmer consultants basically making presentations and doing
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:middle layers of a corporation right
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah.
Track 1:Where you can't I heard a stat 30 percent of people don't believe that their work adds any value to the
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Oh, jeez. That's awful. I feel like it's such a gift that we're in this profession. I, I get so excited about, I just sometimes, I think you and I talked about like, why didn't we get into this career earlier because it's just, there's, it's so meaningful to me. Um, even in my longest days, I, in the course of one day, my clients will be at different. Places. And there'll be one client that will like, I'll feel so proud of, you know, like just sort of seeing where they are. So every day as, as tough as some of those days are, I find meaning every single day and I feel like my life is almost like Technicolor now.
Track 1:Wow
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yeah. Yeah.
Track 1:Any final words of wisdom or a place you would like people to go to check you out or anything that you have that we haven't touched on
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:No, I think, I mean, this was such a lovely time to spend with you and, um, talk about the things that got me really excited. If people are interested in learning more about me or finding me, they can find me at LisaChenTherapy. com. Um, and I think that's about it. I guess I'd encourage everyone to find their, The richness in their inner life and to become their most authentic selves. Um, because when I was thinking about it during the podcast today, I was thinking about the snowball effect and the snowball. it was only until I found my sense of who I was in my authentic life, that everything started snowballing in my career and my life. And I think I am on a trajectory that is far more successful than what my business career, ended up being. So I think that in order to get that snowball effect, you really need to find your, who you are and your inward sense of truth. Your inner truth,
Track 1:I'm so happy you highlight that because I it start with a sincere intention
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:right?
Track 1:Yeah I'm calling it the first snowflake
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Ooh,
Track 1:about one true sentence could write down a true sentence then that would be a good starting point and he could write from it
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah,
Track 1:so, yeah, something was touched was bedrock that was a place to, that you could build from
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:yeah yeah, yeah. Otherwise it stayed, it stayed as opposed to like shifting sand, right? Or shifting things that disappear. over time. It's ephemeral. Yeah.
Track 1:There's a Nietzsche quote some say my ideas are shifting sands but if I have one granite sentence it is become who you are
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:That is like, that might be a really great tagline for both of us. Become who you are. Find your way home. You know?
Track 1:and so that that's stayed there and it's getting stronger and stronger is my sense Yeah
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:everything feels so effortless. I mean, on the one hand it's not so effortless, but, um, I think you and I know that to build our, our practice to get to this place, there's a lot of hard work and a lot of hours we put into it, but those hours feel so, I feel so happily able to give those hours away because I find so much meaning and it just feels so effortless to me. And so it is like a snowball, like. Kind of rolling down its hill or gaining momentum. And I really feel like I found home like in myself and in this career.
Track 1:great Well Yeah, advocate for you. I people to reach out to you Uh you know I do send clients to
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Yes, you do.
Track 1:think you're a great clinician so yeah keep snowballing keep doing good work
lisa-chen---she-hers-_1_04-21-2024_150837:Okay. I will. Thanks, Steve.