Episode #11 Cody Will: Rattlesnake Training

Join us in this episode, where we talk about rattlesnake aversion training for dogs. Cody Will is an expert in the field with over 12 years of experience working with rattlesnakes and dogs. 

Cody has studied these reptiles and shares insights on when rattlesnakes are most likely to be seen and what to do when you see them. Most importantly he explains why getting your dog rattlesnake trained is so important. 

Tune in now to hear what Cody has to say!

Connect with us: Email us at ryan@azquailtoday.com —we'd love to hear from you! 
Follow us on Instagram at @azquailtoday

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to Arizona Quail Today, your go-to podcast for all things quail hunting in Arizona. We're dedicated to educating and inspiring the next generation of quail hunters. A big thanks to our supporters and proud partners, Arizona Outdoor Adventures, Fathers in the Field, and Marsoupio Gear. Thanks for tuning in. Now let's dive in today's program. Hey there, Arizona Quail today. This is your host for today, Nate Estrato. I am here with Cody from Rattlesnake Ready. Cody, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

I'm good, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I'm doing fantastic. Well, thanks for joining on the podcast today. Um real excited to learn about what you do and how you started and um eventually, you know, get get scheduled to do some rattlesnake training with my dog and Ryan's dog. So if you want to just kind of start from the beginning, how did you get into rattlesnake training? How did you get into this field, I guess?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah, uh, it's a good question. Um, I mean, honestly, the need kind of found me. Um, this was not something that was on my radar in terms of a career choice, but um kind of how it all started. Uh, I grew up in a rural area with dogs, and we get rattlesnakes. This is in rural Northern California. And uh, yeah, we get rattlesnakes in the backyard, and I remember it being a uh concern that the dogs could get hurt. And my first job in high school was at a pet store, and this you know, store had um you know pet supplies, food, all that, reptiles as well. I always was fascinated with the reptiles, and uh, customer actually came in asking about snake avoidance training for dogs, and that's kind of where I even realized that it existed. And this is in uh sorry, I was in junior college by that point. So I did some research to look into it and kind of realized there's just not a lot of people around the country offering it. Um, I mean, there's there's definitely a handful, especially now, so but um at the time this was this was probably 10, 11 years ago or so. Uh yeah, just very few people offering it. So that got me into entrepreneur mode. Um, being that I loved reptiles and grew up with dogs, I'm like, I could probably uh tackle this need. So yeah, kind of uh I started it more or less for fun with my family's dog, the neighbors' dogs, and was blown away with how well it worked. And you know, there's a lot in between there. I did a lot of research to figure out how to do it right. And uh yeah, started it for fun and it took off and been doing it ever since.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

So you started Northern California, and then what brought you to Arizona?

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yeah, so that um had more to do well with family, but also business, um, not necessarily in that order. So married my wife, Kate, who pretty much um does all the scheduling for the business. So she's she's just as much the business as I am. And uh her dad, so at the time we're still in Northern California, her dad uh is in Cave Creek, right where we are now, and uh he basically convinced me that you know the the need is more year-round in Arizona, there's an even bigger need, and um I had finished school in Northern California and I wasn't necessarily set on staying in the state, and so um being that I was open to moving, it made logical sense to move the business here. I'd only been a couple years into it by that point, um, in California, and so anyway, took the plunge to go ahead and move everything out here, and there was a period where we went back and forth. So we were in Arizona, I mean 99% of the time, but we would do uh trips back to Northern California, just a week there, two weeks here and there, and that would uh just kind of help us still maintain relationships there and and train dogs there too, where I grew up, and then eventually, as um Kate's dad was right, the things did really well here in Arizona. It wasn't feasible to keep going back and forth, so we just stay here now. Um, yeah, so like I said, a little bit of family influence, but it also made business sense. So that's where I sit today.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Mm-hmm. Did you you said you grew up around a lot of dogs? Were these hunting dogs? Did you grow up hunting, or are these like field dogs, farm dogs? What was your relationship with these dogs?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yeah, um, so it's it's funny you asked the uh original dogs I grew up with were just pet dogs. My parents had boxers, and uh just because they they first dog they ever had was a um a rescue. My dad basically found and uh took it in, got it. Um it had had all kinds of health issues, got it as fixed as it could get, and it was the best dog he ever had, and so they were kind of hooked on boxers after that. So that's what I grew up with. My uh brother eventually later on got into some hunting and he wanted hounds, so he had a walker hound and a blue tick hound, but um he never actually um did a whole lot with them hunting wise, but um, so I did grow up hunting a little bit, but not necessarily with dogs. Uh we do some spring turkey hunting uh on my parents' property. So this is like rural Northern California, and uh yeah, turkey hunting, wild boar, and uh a lot of fishing up that way too, but um no actual bird dog hunting, I should say. I did do some dove hunting, but retrieve all those myself. So um, yeah, so all the grout dogs that I grew up around uh personally in my household were primarily just what I would call pet dogs.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So I know, and you understand this, rattlesnakes are huge in the Arizona desert. There are a lot of are there similar rattlesnakes in northern California, different kinds of snakes that are just as dangerous? Like what's the snake habitat in northern California like?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Sure, yeah. So I grew up uh in the Redding area, it's kind of rolling oak woodland. You can drive 45 minutes and you're in mountains. And uh there's one species of rattlesnake in that particular part of the snake. It's called the Northern Pacific rattlesnake. And so that was the only species there. Uh Arizona, and I will say in Northern California, the rattlesnakes are pretty abundant. They're um, you know, we think of Arizona as like a hot spot. We do have a lot of diversity of rattlesnakes, and there definitely is you know pretty healthy population of them here, at least in most areas. Um Riker up, pretty heavy population as well, but it's all the same species. In Arizona, you can have several different kinds. Um yeah, they were they were equally um an issue, at least in terms of of pets, you know, dogs getting hurt um in Northern California as well. But part of the move wasn't just family stuff. Like I said, the down here, you know, closer to the equator, you get things don't really have to hibernate. And so, you know, rural Northern California, our winters weren't super cold, but they were cold enough that you know, so several once a year you wouldn't see rattlesnakes, and then come mid-spring or so you'd start seeing them. Uh, I feel like down here, you know, things can get rolling and start running into rattlesnakes. I mean, end of February sometimes, and uh typically around March or so. But um that and then we just have such mild winters in general. Um, yeah, there's plenty of snowbirds that keep us busy in the winter, and that just was kind of non-existent in Northern California. So um that had you know part of the that had to do with part of the decision to come out here. Um, yeah, so I'd say there's just many rattlesnakes, a little more seasonal um in terms of their activity, um, but there's plenty of them up there uh for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, there's I mean, there's snakes all over. One thing I heard was, and I don't know how true this is, somebody we had on the podcast, I think it was our first episode with Matt Russell. He was saying in Arizona there might not be rattlesnakes 365 days of the year out, but they might be out every month, right? Every month of the year. So you might not see them, and and I know they're seasonal and they're cold-blooded, so in the winter they like to try to stay warm. But right now, we're would you say this is like the middle of rattlesnake season?

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, I mean, they're the their activity just follows their kind of metabolic needs, and that looks different throughout the year, and so and also you know, they they need to avoid extremes. Like people think of rattlesnakes in the desert and they just jump to conclusions that these things love it just hot and toasty. They really don't. Like the reason you don't see them out right now in broad daylight is because it's triple digits every single day this time of year. Um, and so they are pretty much strictly nocturnal. So unless you're romping around the desert at two in the morning, you might not see them right now, but they are absolutely active and out. Homeowners are running to them on their patios at night sometimes. And if we do get a you know good monsoon that rolls through, cools things off temporarily. You could see, I'm not saying you can't see them in the daytime, but they just switch their habits to being a little more nocturnal this time of year. And then spring and fall, you know, nighttime lows can start getting a little chilly, but the daytime is kind of ideal. So they'll be out in broad daylight those times of year. So we get a lot of you know, the spring hiking crowd that's running into them and want their dogs trained. And then in fall, we get a lot of the you know, the hunting crowd that is getting ready to put their dog out in the field for the first time for you know, quail and and or dove or whatever bird hunting they're doing. And uh their snakes are are definitely active, um, especially down in Arizona, you know, all the way to Thanksgiving, they can still be active. And um, I think it's a bit of a misconception that um oh, they they're looking for heat. Uh winter's kind of a weird time because our days are pretty mild here. They they could easily get to the a good body temperature during the day if they want to. So sometimes they're actually seeking not just cold, but like a stable cold because if their metabolism is on during the day, but then it's dropping at night, that constant up and down is not good for their body. So a lot of times what they do is they will choose a good, you know, deep crevice or hole or you know, some fissure in a mountain side or rock between rocks or whatever, and it's a good stable spot where they can just basically wait until things are more consistently ideal and then they'll pop out for longer periods. Um, but you you are right in that um I've talked to veterinarians that have treated snake bites every month of the year here. I think it just has to do with our mild winters, is they don't have to go, you know, like Montana, a prairie rattlesnake might need to go several feet underground to avoid being frozen solid and dying. Out here, we're lucky to get any frost at all in the Sonoran desert. And so they don't have to be very picky in the winter where they hide. They can coil up in somebody's garage behind the hot water heater and sit there for the winter. They can, you know, find any random hole. And so they're they're closer to the surface, uh, they don't need to get as deep, and they pop out as they choose. If it's you know long, dry period and we get a winter rain, even if it's 40 degrees, they'll pop out and drink water if they need to. So yeah, it's not impossible to run into one pretty much year round, but their active period when they're moving and looking for food and mates and all that, that's when you know people tend to see them the most. But um, but yeah, we can, especially in Arizona, you can run into them almost year round.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. We don't have crazy winters in the valley where it's getting below freezing. And maybe you know this. I think I don't know if rattlesnakes make it up to Flagstaff area or above seven thousand. I don't know. Do do they have like a general elevation they stay at? Like, I don't think they're going up that far north, but maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah, there uh it seems the farther north you go, not just in latitude, but like elevation, you know, things change. Like, you know, Mexico's got a huge diversity of rattlesnakes, Arizona has a huge diversity of rattlesnakes, and as you start getting further north, you start seeing less diversity of rattlesnakes, but there's often a species that is adapted to the area. And in our case, we do actually have rattlesnakes in the higher elevation areas. It's they're called a called an Arizona black rattlesnake. A lot of locals refer to them as a timber rattlesnake, and that's not quite accurate because timber rattlesnakes are technically found on the east coast, but um they are up there. They're and some of it's too just a uh just difference with species. So they're they're a shire, like diamondbacks will wander into anybody's backyard looking for food. Uh Arizona blacks are, I think, a little more sensitive of a species to where they kind of avoid um human interaction. I mean, no rattlesnake wants to interact with a human, but especially these just seem to be the type of animal that when there's a campground or there's disturbances present, they avoid that. Whereas a diamondback, it might not bother them as much. And so they're probably not as frequently encountered, but they are certainly up in the high elevation parts of Arizona. So like Pays it, Payson, uh Prescott, parts of Flagstaff. Um, I don't think there's an Arizona Black sitting on the top of what is it, Mount Humphrey up there? Or um, not Mount Humphrey, what's the is it Humphreys Peak? Is that the name of the highest point? It is Humphrey, yeah, in Flagsas. Yeah, yeah. So I don't think there's probably not one sitting at the very top of the mountain there, but there's probably certain little canyons and washes and stuff in you know, rocky spots in the forests where there absolutely is some. And so, so yeah, they're they're up there, probably not quite as abundant as the diamondbacks down here, but there is rattlesnakes. Uh pretty much every part of Arizona and and actually every every state in the United States, with the exception of I believe Maine, Hawaii, and Alaska. Um, every other state here has some kind of rattlesnake.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Um, so yeah, even places like Michigan and Ohio, that's you know, not too many people think about it. But um, again, it doesn't mean they're abundant, it doesn't mean there's tons of different kinds, but in that those examples I just said in Michigan, there's a rattlesnake called the Massa Saga. It's endangered there. So it's not only not common, it's it's literally a threatened species. So um that's true in all the states they're found in. So um, yeah, we've got to show you though that the whole dogs running into a venomous snake is is an issue in almost every state. You know, it's seems to be a bigger issue the more south you go. But um, yeah, there's yeah, prairie rattlesnakes in Montana, northern Pacifics in Washington, and then you got huge eastern diamondbacks in Florida, and then our stuff down here, and every you know, other stuff in between. So there's a lot of different species of rattlesnake people don't realize there's there's quite a few.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

That's really good to know. I didn't even know that there were rattlesnakes pretty much in every state, and that's good for any of the uh listeners that live outside of Arizona that uh go bird hunting with their dog or they do any other hunting, just to be aware that there could be a rattlesnake in any kind of terrain you're at, like if if it is the right season, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Exactly, yeah. And I will say the whole like you kind of think of it like the uh the fall color that takes place in like states like Pennsylvania, you know, that all the trees losing their leaves and the winter weather start showing up, you know, that kind of starts in the northern states and works its way down. And so like November is a great time of year down here where you know it could be 65, 75 degrees sunny, but you know, Montana it might already be getting really cold by that point. So thankfully, with a lot of the bird seasons that start in the more northern states, a lot of times when those seasons open up for hunting, it's already cold enough that the snakes are pretty much hibernating. Um, but down here, some of the bird seasons open up when they're still active. And so um, so the other states might not be as high of a risk, but there, yeah, there is some kind of rattlesnake there. And if it's early season hunting, you you might run into some that are either on the move to get back to a winter den site or um or yeah, you just catch one in the open. And I like to say like nature doesn't have rules. Like I have a buddy who tracks a lot of timber rattlesnake dens in the northeast, and he has gotten pictures of rattlesnakes out on Christmas Day at den sites where it was a 50-degree day, it was sunny, and maybe things were so cold they had a reason to warm up, so they popped out on that day and took advantage of the the sun and basically were sitting out in again, middle of winter. And now the whole forest all around them, anybody hiking and running around wouldn't have seen a rattlesnake, but it goes to show you if you're in the right spot at the right time, even in the dead of winter. It's even in a state that's not Arizona, you could still have a run-in with one, uh, which is crazy, pretty crazy to think about, but it does happen.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Yeah, that's good to know. It's always you know good to just be aware of what what other wildlife is around when you're hunting, when you're out with your dog. Well, let's get into um some of the training that you guys do and and what that actually looks like. So describe what you do at Rattlesnake Ready, what the training looks like, how you get people trained, how you get these dogs trained. What kind of get into that, if you don't mind?

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Yeah, absolutely. And real quick going back to the previous comment, and I don't say all that to tell people they need to be paranoid year-round. It's one of those things where just be aware that you could run into a rattlesnake almost any time. Um, which to transition into what I do, that's where this comes into play. So what I basically do is uh in hopes of preventing so this is preventative measures to minimize the chance of snake bite with dogs. So we basically train dogs to recognize rattlesnakes as a threat, and that includes everything about them, the sounds they make, the odor they have, the visually, like just everything about them, avoid it. And so the reason that's necessary is dogs um don't necessarily know that just inherently. There's not really, you know, in all the years of breeding dogs, you know, especially a lot of the breeds that we use for things are in bird dogs, for instance, there's a lot of European breeds that are used for bird dog hunt or for bird hunting, and they don't have rattlesnakes in Europe. And so anyway, I'll just say they don't just naturally avoid them. Usually when a dog encounters a rattlesnake, they're pretty interested in them. And so what that looks like, just like anything else that that they've discovered that's new, they often want to see what it is and smell it. And so, you know, things like lizards and rabbits and birds, you know, things that fly or run away. A lot of the times dogs like to chase after it. Rattlesnakes don't generally flee. I mean, that's part of their tactic is to avoid um confrontation. They might try and get away, but they're a little slower than other snakes. So a lot of times they will defend themselves, they'll, you know, they'll coil, they'll rear up and rattle and put on a show. And, you know, if you think about it, ironically, we buy our dogs toys that squeak and rattle and make sounds. And so when they find something like this in the wild, it's not like a oh shoot, that's scary, run away. They're usually pretty eager to investigate. So they typically go up, investigate the snake. Um, if you look at pictures online or talk to any veterinarian that treats a lot of emergency like you know, snake bites, um, you see a lot of bites right to the face of the dog. And it's because they did just what I described, where they go up to investigate the snake. So essentially what we do about that is we have a training program that is four steps that um in one lesson takes approximately 30 minutes. Um, we basically break the dog of that behavior and um a little to give a little more detail on what that looks like. Um, the dog is wearing uh an e-collar or shot collar, whatever you want to call it. And uh the snakes, we we use the real rattlesnakes for this. So one thing that's really important is you know, the dog's gotta learn exactly what it is we want them to avoid. And so we use the real deal, which that's partly why not a lot of people do this, is they kind of understand the pressure of you have to use a real rattlesnake. Dogs have keen senses, and so anything else just won't quite suffice. It might work for some dogs, but the best is gonna use the real thing. So anyway, use a real rattlesnake, it's muzzled, so it can't bite. So use a special medical tape that's safe for skin, doesn't harm the snake. They obviously don't love being muzzled, but it makes it safe for everybody to be around the snake, and uh, and that's something maybe later if we want to talk about it more. I can't I actually, as I mentioned earlier, I love reptiles. And so what I what I do is a way to try and help wildlife and pets to live in harmony with one another. And it's it's not at the expense of the snake. They're not, you know, the stress is mitigated. We have several animals we rotate through, the muzzle is totally fine and doesn't hurt them. So anyway, I get more into that if you want, but just throwing that out there. So anyway, snake's muzzled, so it can't bite. The dog is allowed to approach it. Uh, we have a really cool desert landscape training area at our facility, and they can be off leash in there if the owner wants, or they can have them on like they're on a walk, whatever their you know, typical lifestyle is. Um, I get some ranch dogs that are never on leash, and I get some little chihuahuas that literally go potty in the backyard on leash. And so um, it depends on the owner's lifestyle. But anyway, as the dog approaches the snake and gets too close, we give them a little correction with the collar, and if it's enough, they jump back, they avoid the snake, and they think the snake is where it came from. And this is usually true, even with dogs that have had e-collar experience. I think they're so infatuated with this new critter that when they get close to it and then feel a surprising little jolt, they tend to blame the snake and get out of there. And so that's kind of the first step. The first snake we use is on the smaller side usually, so anywhere from a baby to a juvenile, you know, up to about 18 inches or so is the size of that rattlesnake. Uh, once the dog has successfully learned to avoid that snake, we do a scent and a sound step that are supplementary. So we have a huge collection of rattlesnakes at our facility, and every time they shed, we basically vacuum seal and freeze the skin to preserve it. And then we're changing those out constantly. So we have a fresh skin that we allow the dog to sniff and teach him that's bad as well. I've got a great quality recording of a rattlesnake that we play off of a Bluetooth speaker that's hidden in some bushes, and essentially teach him to flee from that noise. Excuse me. And then uh last thing we do is bring out an adult diamond back. Uh that one's muzzled as well. And usually by that point the dog wants nothing to do with it. And so if the dog is clearly avoiding it, giving it a huge wide berth, um, staying back or doing everything it's supposed to, then at that point, um, they're they're good to go. And that's uh that's pretty much the bulk of what what an initial lesson looks like for a dog. Um that usually is the only one they need, but we do offer follow-ups too, and I can talk more about that. But that's the that's the four-step foundational lesson that I think every dog in Arizona that gets out in the desert should go through.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

So yeah, and I'm looking at the website. So you start just to recap, step one, you start with a juvenile rattlesnake, a small snake that's muzzled, and then set step two is the scent recognition, so you have the uh like the skin, their what would you call it? That's their their skin, I guess, that they shed it off, and it still still smells like a rattlesnake, and then step three is you use a sound aversion, which is it it emulates the sound of what a rattles would sound like. And then step four is an adult rattlesnake that's muzzled, so it's gonna be the most, I guess, common rattlesnake that they'll end up seeing in the wild.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah, we try to use the variety that's found in the area, so that's why I pretty much primarily use diamondbacks. Now we have a big collection. We actually have a rattlesnake zoo. Um our facility has uh I can talk more about that later as well if you want. But um, we have a ton of other rattlesnakes too. So occasionally I'll get a customer that's traveling through the area, but they actually live on the east coast. I might pull like a timber rattlesnake skin out that we've got saved for that reason.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Um, so yes, and I get I get as you know, we get a ton of snowbirds in Arizona. So I get people who are here in the winter and then they go to Montana for the summer, and it's a different species of rattlesnake up there. So that's where I might use a prairie rattlesnake skin. Now, and I I I do that because we we have that we have those resources available. Um, I've noticed it's not entirely crucial though, because once a dog has been taught to eat to avoid a rattlesnake, as long as a real rattlesnake in general was used, they seem to avoid any species of rattlesnake after that. So I do think they generalize the different rattlesnake species. Um they don't necessarily avoid like non-venomous stuff that's different biologically, but um it does seem that and I base that that um hypothesis after hearing success stories in other states where I never even use that species or rattlesnake in the training, but the dog recognized it as a threat and did, but they were supposed to. Um so yeah, so I I again it's not necessary, but we have it, so we might as well use it. So anytime I have like a traveler or somebody who lives part-time in another state, I might, you know, I've got the skins here, so why not use the accurate kind?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Mm-hmm. So you were saying that you do this in one training session. How long is this session take for the dog to kind of go through each step?

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah, it's about 30 minutes, um, which you know sounds crazy to teach a dog a key lesson in that amount of time and they only need it once, but it really is it's not a too good-to-be-true thing. It's a very common sense lesson that works really well, really efficiently. And uh, yeah, so they they learn it all in one lesson. Now, we recommend testing the dog to make sure that's true. And so we do offer follow-ups that are half the price, or we just uh more of a pop quiz than anything else. We spit the snake out and see what the dog remembers. You know, this this might be a dog that we saw a year ago or five years ago, but um, the owners kind of have the option to test them at any point that that's like a half price quicker version where we just see what they remember. I always tell people too, if they you know go home or are out in the field and they have a run-in with a rattlesnake and the dog does great, that's like a free follow-up right there. So count that anytime it happens. But if you don't see one for a year or two, yeah, if you don't see one for a year or two, it's probably a good idea to bring them back and make sure they remember.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

So about a year, you'd say, just to get them refreshed on that. Because yeah, if they don't see it, they they lose that ability to remember that training, right? It's all goes up.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't think they completely well, it's hard to say. I think this is probably like a case-by-case basis thing where there might be a dog that needs it again six months later, there might be another dog that remembers it the rest of its life. It really just depends on the impact it had, the dog's personality, their memory, um, their age. But I I've kind of noticed it's a good idea to test them once a year after initial training for at least a couple of years. And you usually the first follow-up a customer does really gives the best answer. Because if they come back a year later and we cannot get the dog near the snake, it wants nothing to do with it, then it's like, okay, this dog did great and it retained it. I'm not gonna be as pushy about doing future follow-ups. Now, if this dog was a puppy when it first went through training, they bring it back and it like wants to check out the snake all over again, then it's like, okay, oh shoot, this dog needs probably a little more. Or if it's just like a crazy high prey drive dog, you know, there might be some that at the end of the lesson, after seeing you know years worth of of different dogs' reactions and stuff, there might be some I say, hey, you should probably come back in six months, let's test them again, or um, or heck, even in a week later or something. But that that's that's actually a pretty rare instance. I would say with pretty good confidence, like 95% of dogs like get it down really well in that first lesson, and they remember it a year later pretty easily, uh, which is really cool because yeah, it's and it's great too. Yeah, I wouldn't I don't take any pleasure in scaring the dogs. And so, you know, it's nice that they remember it well. I don't have to like see these dogs over and over again and just keep scaring them to get them to remember it. Um, it usually they remember it well. And the best knowledge I could come up with why they do remember this stuff well, I've kind of compared to like little kids, you know, toddler only often touches the hot stove once, and it's kind of the same idea with this training. So, you know, that same toddler might take years to teach manners. Um, same thing with normal dog training, it takes a lot more effort and repetition and consistency and all those things. This is kind of like touching the hot stove, though. Like when the dog gets close to the snake and it feels a little jolt that it doesn't like, you know, now it just thinks, okay, that animal is harmful, I don't like it. And that's now what it remembers it by. So the dog won't always be paranoid, look keeping an eye out for them. But if they run into one again, now they have a they already have a negative memory of that animal and they have the wisdom to to back off and leave it alone and not check it out like they did for the first time with with when we first put them through training. So yeah, it sticks with them uh a nice long time. Uh and that's pretty much across the board. But like I said, you want to just be sure that that's true for your particular dog by testing them at least once if you don't get a real test in in real life.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

One thing I wanted to ask was do you think that this aversion works? I know it's specifically for rattlesnakes, but other snakes in general, other species of snakes that aren't rattlesnakes, as far as the dog's ability to kind of recognize it's a similar animal.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

Yeah, and so that's a good question. I I get asked that a lot. And I kind of mentioned a little bit earlier that answers a little bit, I'll definitely go into more detail. So I mentioned earlier that it's important to use a real rattlesnake for this training, and that's because there are some dogs that can tell things apart. And I a lot of the answers I'm giving you are based off of like 10 plus years of doing this and having customers give feedback and yada yada. I've had dogs that will avoid a bungee cord on the side of the road after this training, and I've also had dogs that will only avoid a rattlesnake after this training. So I think what it boils down to, and this is my just best guess with all the data I have, is kind of more timid, overly cautious dogs, not necessarily overly cautious, but a little bit maybe smarter, more tameable prey drive dogs. They might avoid anything and everything that looks like a rattlesnake after this, including some non-venomous stuff. Now, the ones that have a little more boldness, a little more prey drive, and they use their nose a little more, I think they're the ones that can tell things apart. And they might be one that will avoid a rattlesnake, but they might still investigate a king snake or a gopher snake, and that's because it doesn't smell the same and it doesn't register as a threat. And so they might still show some interest. So basically it depends on the dog, but I think at minimum they all should know to leave a rattlesnake alone as a result of the training. Some will avoid non-venomous stuff too, some won't. Um, but the main thing is covered, at least in this part of this part of the country. Um, I have been asked if it works for copperheads or cotton mouse or coral snakes. Um, I won't go into all the details, but my honest guess is it won't work for coral snakes. Thankfully, they're not really an issue here. They are around, but they're pretty much a non-issue. Um, East Coast, that's they're more of a problem. And then copperheads and cotton mouth, I don't have enough data to know. I've had a couple dogs that somebody let me know they were traveling and their dog did avoid one, but I don't have enough data to say that that that does work. Um, just a few stories that have given me some anecdotal evidence.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, and I I definitely could imagine, you know, each dog has their own level of recognizing snakes and remembering what they were trained, and so a young dog might do better or you know, whatever. One thing, um, and this is probably similar, you know, case by case, but just from what you've seen, when the dogs are going to the training and they do scent recognition and the sound aversion, where have you seen kind of on average? Like, how close do these dogs begin to realize the scent is uh becoming a rattlesnake scent or the sound? Like how what's you know, what's the proximity they get within recognizing a snake?

SPEAKER_02 31:47

So that's a really good question. That's something that um I've yet to be published for anything, um, but I I'm kind of teaming up with some uh local veterinary students that we want to actually get some data on that because I noticed early on, like I will put a rattlesnake in a relatively easy-to-see spot. Um it's not, you know, like neon sign obvious, but it's it's it's visible. And I've had dogs walk by it 10 times before they realize it's there. And then I've had dogs that find it right off the bat. And you know, there's a lot of variables, you know, wind direction, if it's blowing in the dog's face or not, if the dog's paying attention or not, you know, the breed and their ability to use their nose well. Um, and so it's across the board, but I will say, and it's not just dog's ability to be observant. Um, this the snakes themselves are literally designed to avoid being detected. They are they're ambush predators. So much like a hunter in a in camo sitting in a blind or whatever, like that's that's their method of hunting, is they they uh they find a good spot, they sit there, and if they were really obvious, if they had a strong smell or if they weren't well camouflaged, they would be pretty bad hunters. And so um I think some of it is dogs not paying attention, some of it is the snakes are really good at hiding. So that's that's where there's kind of two issues. Some dogs find the snake and show interest, others don't even know it's there, and they just bump into it, and so that's that's another risk right there. So I'm not saying they're not detectable. I've I to answer your question better. Uh, if wind is in the direct in the dog's favor, you know, blowing in their direction and their downwind of the snake, I have seen really cool reactions of like a German shepherd picking up on the snake, I mean, over 10, 15 feet away. Um, and then like I said, if the wind's blowing the opposite way, they might not be able to smell it at all and I walk right by it. And so that's kind of a key thing that I have to like the training works fantastic, but to kind of bring, keep things into perspective is we're not by any means teaching the dog to locate a rattlesnake. We're teaching them if you pick up on any rattlesnake queue, avoid the danger, like get out of there. And so a big key difference there, because a lot of people uh they read our reviews and and there's some really cool success stories. We've had stories of where something like that happened, where the dog on a trail hit the brakes out of nowhere and would not go up the trail anymore. And sure enough, they're down into the snake that's up ahead, and the owner just is thrilled that that happened because it's just really cool. Um, but the problem is, is then you know, you have a lot of people read that review and they're like, Oh, my dog alert me to every snake. And so, you know, that that was a cool success story, but we don't know about the five other rattlesnakes that were off the trail when blown the wrong way, and the dog didn't ever, you know, nobody knew they were there and just passed by. So, all to say, um, even a well-trained dog, if things aren't lined up nice, they can still miss them. Thankfully, it's rare that a dog gets bit just innocently passing one. Um, like I said, most bites are to the face, and it's not because the snake is able to ambush the dog and get it right in the face, it's because the dog showed interest in the snake or had its nose in a hole or it was sitting or something like that. So um, yeah, I don't want to downplay the train, but also I want people to think that their dog is gonna alert them to every snake. It is common, but it's uh it's not necessarily the end goal. The end goal is to simply keep the dog out of the emergency vet. Um but yeah, so several feet. Um, sometimes they notice them, it's it's across the board. Uh, we see all different breeds. Uh the only criteria for our training is the dog has to be at least six months or older. And so once they've kind of gotten past those fear stages in their puppy development, um, they're in their clear to go through it. Uh, I've noticed the retention is best when they're a year and older. So if they hit six months and it's in the dead of winter and there's not a whole lot of snake activity, you know, that might be a dog that you might want to wait a little longer. But if they're six months right at the start of the season or something, then go ahead and get it done, is my recommendation. They can handle it as young as six months. Uh, a year and older is when they retain it best, though, just based off of what we see with follow-ups a year later.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Well, I I really like what you said is you aren't teaching these dogs to locate rattlesnakes, you're teaching them to avoid rattlesnakes.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Which is a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah, really big difference, and it's well said because you know, they're you've I mean you've mentioned you've covered the how these snakes live. They're I mean, even for humans, right, they're so hard to see. And I've walked past um rattlesnakes, I've stepped right over them, and then I I'll see or hear something move, and you know, you won't even see it, and it's within two feet of you because they're just they camouflage perfectly. I'm looking at your website, and just like the sand, you have at the top a rattlesnake, uh, a picture of a rattlesnake on a rock, and then below that you have a picture of a dog in sand. And if that rattlesnake was in that sand, you could barely see it because that's that's their you know, their perfect camouflage, and you know, they're their their whole design is to hide and be ambushed. So, and and even for hunting dogs, you know, because I have an English corner, and most people who have hunting dogs, you know, they might think that their dogs are expert smellers, and for the most part they are, but if the wind scenting conditions aren't in their favor, or if it's dry out and it's not moist, or if they're just catching smell of something else, they might not see a rattlesnake. They could easily pass by one. Um, and I I've seen my dog pass by quail, right? And I and even me, and so it's like these snakes, they're not always in spots where they're easily seen or found, but it's good to know that like when they do catch that scent, that's what they're that's what that training starts to help them with, is they they begin to avoid that, they're not gonna investigate it because these dogs are curious, and you know, you did mention that we get these toys for our dogs that rattle and and squeal and they look like those animals and they want to go check them out. And and I've even had my dog. Um, you know, dogs, some dogs like to dig, right? And that's right where snakes are found in these little holes, and dogs put their snout right in these holes and they don't know what's in there. And so I've seen um, and you're absolutely right. Uh I've seen some photos of most dogs, it seems like they get bit right in their face because that's where they're that's what they use to investigate these animals is their nose and their eyes. So they get real close. So I guess moving from the training, what you know, let's think of like a real life scenario. What what would you say you should do as a dog owner if your dog encounters a snake and it starts, you know, it's gone through the training, maybe it hasn't gone through the training, but like what kind of what should you start to do if your dog has encountered a snake? We'll get to like what you should do if your dog gets bit by a snake, but you know, it starts encountering a snake. What's what's what should you do as an owner?

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Yeah, um that's a good question. I think uh, well, if the dog's been through training, hopefully what you should see, and again, going back to what we said, we have we haven't taught them to find it, but if they've discovered one, if they've been through training, you shouldn't have to be calling them off it. Like ideally, they they know better, they should be getting away from it at that point. Um, but you know, say they haven't been through training or it failed miserably, which thankfully doesn't happen often. But let's say that the dog is showing interest. I always said, especially in Arizona, but it's probably true elsewhere too. If you can teach a dog one thing to like to prioritize one thing, it's it's to have good recall. And so um the snake is not contrary to the crazy uncle stories that people have, like a rattlesnake is not gonna like flat out chase after you or come, or even your dog too. Like it, there's no reason to. But B, you know, you'll hear stories like that, and I think it's because people are afraid of the snake, and they don't, you know, people are afraid of something, don't always understand its behavior. Uh sharks freak me out. I don't know anything about their behavior. That's it, it would prevent me from swimming in certain parts of the ocean.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

When you when you talk to a lot of marine biologists, you can tell a lot of its hype in people's fear. It's actually pretty unlikely that you're gonna get attacked by a shark. So anyway, going back to the rattlesnakes, um, they don't they have no interest in in biting your dog. It's a waste of venom, and uh it's you know, their venom is designed to kill a rodent quickly. It happens to work really good on dogs and humans too, but it's uh it's not made to ruin our day, it's to make ruin a rodent's day and secure a meal. And so they don't want to waste it on your dog. And I mean, they literally come with an audible warning device. So that rattle, even though they don't always use it, if they're using it, they're telling you that they're right there and to to not step on them and not don't interact with them. And so, all to say, if your dog has the wisdom to avoid the snake, hopefully there's no risk, no issues. The dog just steers clear of it. Um, and that's where we've had we've had success stories where the dog literally ran away. We've had other stories where the dog just stopped and kind of watched it and kept their distance. Uh, we don't really care what they do, those reactions are just naturally what they do. Like we don't we only teach them to leave the snake alone. How they choose to do that, it doesn't really matter. We've had dogs bark at the snakes. I had a German short ear that would flat out point the snake, um, which is both cool and that might kind of backfire if the owner thinks there's a quail in a bush and it's actually a rattlesnake. But anyway, so they have their different body language, but as long as they leave the snake alone, they're good. So yeah, if the dog's been trained, it should already be doing that. If it hasn't, um, like I said, if if the dog's got good recall, um, and in this case, good recall, even in the presence of a tempting distraction, like something new, like a rattlesnake or a bunny or coyote or whatever else, you know, if you can call them off it, that's really all you gotta do is just, you know, get them back to you, get a finger under their collar or or leash on them or whatever, and and really just you know, avoid the snake. You, you know, I always say that once you see the snake, the danger's over. You know where it is now, and so you can work your way around it. Um, you know, whatever you gotta do to just leave it alone is pretty much it. Um, and then uh yeah, trying to think else, you know, and that's something to keep in mind with the activity patterns that we were talking about earlier. You know, in the spring, the snakes are out in broad daylight, enjoying the same weather that we are, and so that might be a time of year where you're a little extra on guard and maybe do a little more on leash than off-leash. And then, you know, dead of winter on a 40-degree overcast day, maybe that's the day you let them run around a little bit. But um, you know, that every owner has to figure out that sweet spot of, you know, want their dog to be safe, but also have fun and be a dog too. So, but that might change throughout the seasons. And so I always say in the thick of snake season, especially in the springtime down here in like March, April, um, that's a particularly bad month for dogs getting bit. And uh, and then like I said, September, October are kind of mirror the spring activity. Like I said, our nighttime lows are starting to drop, so they're out in the daytime a little more, they're also working their way back to a winter dense, and so there's a lot of activity in the fall, um, which is from a business standpoint, is kind of nice for us because a lot of people have the mentality, oh, snakes are going away, we're at the tail end, why bother? But we get a lot of training in win in fall because, like I said, hunting seasons are starting up, but also people are running into rattlesnakes again after kind of forgetting about them over the heat of the summer. Um at least down in Arizona. When I say heat of the summer, I'm talking about our heat specifically. If you got listeners in other states like Pennsylvania, you know, nice 85 degree summer day, a snake, all the snakes are gonna be out because they're gonna be loving the sun. Um, but it's it's a whole different environment with the East Coast rattlesnakes. So um, but yeah, I can't remember where I was going with that, but I'll stop there.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah, well, I know I think you were just saying that these snakes are they're gonna be out. So we're in their area, so you just avoid the snake, and you yeah, you're talking about just understanding the time of the year, like you know, during the springtime they're gonna be out in the day, and then in the warmer summer months, they're gonna probably be out at night. And so just understanding where you are uh during the seasons. I mean, you know, if you're out hunting with your dog, um, you're gonna be out in the middle of the desert, right? That's their area. You can't really like relocate a snake, or you know, there's there's snakes. All over the place in the desert, and you you kind of roam into their habitat. So just understanding where it is and moving from that, and just at least having an idea that there was a snake there, and just kind of avoiding it. That's the best thing that you can continue to do. You can't really, you know, and I and I'm I'm a big um animal person, and I think these snakes do their part in this ecosystem of eliminating rodents or whatever, and they have their own like I love the desert because of all the different species of critters that we have out there, lizards and snakes and birds and mountain lions. You know what I mean? It's it's amazing because it has its own ecosystem of different things that survive, and they need to just be on their own. And so it's like I'm not, you know, we're not looking to just kill snakes, right? And you I know you said you love reptiles, and so we want to just leave these snakes alone and and hopefully get our pets away from them.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Absolutely. Yeah, and you're right, and that's unfortunately not everybody has that mentality. Uh, to be honest, uh, I would argue that that rattlesnakes in particular are the most persecuted animal in this state. Um, there's people that, you know, not only kill everyone that gets on their property, there's people that go out of their way to kill them out in the wild too, which I always just think is just kind of a sad, heartbreaking reality that you know, things that are out in nature minding their own business get slaughtered on the spot for no reason. Yeah. It also doesn't, it also doesn't solve anything. Sometimes it's a sometimes it's uh I need to kill it because I hate snakes. Sometimes it's uh oh, I need to kill it or it's gonna bite somebody or their dog or whatever. When in reality, like most rattlesnakes live their entire life without ever biting a dog or a human. Again, they want nothing to do with us. So I think just having a level-headed perspective of all right, these things are existing in nature. As you said, they're they have a crucial role of keeping rodents in check in the wild, and uh among other things too. And there's there's indirect benefits of that too, like you know, snake swallows a mouse that has a cheek full of seeds and it poops later on in a hole that it lives in, and now a new bush grows out of that spot because of uh that snake living in there or whatever. So all to say there's other indirect things that they have a uh influence. They also act as food themselves, you know, roadrunners eat baby rattlesnakes, hawks, owls, um, bobcats, you know, those are those eat rattlesnakes too. So yeah, I think totally agree. Just like any other wild animal, you know, leave it be. And in this case with you know, hunting, it's like the things you kill you're eating, and the things that are just out there mind their own business, you know, leave them alone. They're they're probably not gonna bite anybody else. Um, I feel like out here people have pretty good hiking etiquette where if they see a rattlesnake and it's really close to the trail, they often kind of let all the other hikers know that hey, there's a snake there. But uh I actually had a hike on Tom's Thumb Trail not too uh long ago where there was one right smack like on the side of the trail. And uh there was easily, it was a pretty busy hike. Uh, there's a lot of lot of foot traffic on it. And there were 20 hikers ahead of me that didn't see it. I mean, just walked right by it. The thing never moved, never rattled. And I kind of pointed out to everybody behind me too, like, you know, it's like the snake's sitting right here. Nobody noticed it, and nobody got bit. And uh now, granted, because of the proximity of the trail, I kind of ushered it off the trail just to get it, you know, eventually somebody was gonna spot it or a dog or something, and it it might become a problem. Um, so and I don't recommend people do that. Like you kind of know, got to know what you're doing because if you're interacting with the snake, it doesn't know you're trying to help it. So that's where you know you could get hurt if you get too close or careless. But um, but yeah, end of the day, just like any other wild animal, they want really want nothing to do with us, and they have their purpose in the ecosystem. And and yeah, so the training is something you can do to help your dog not interact with one and therefore avoid a serious, you know, veterinary emergency. And yeah, between doing that and just uh using some common sense and good situational awareness and hopefully you never have any problems.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

So, what would you do? So, we talked about what would you do if your dog saw one and if it went through training or didn't, but you know, worst case scenario, what do you do if your dog gets bitten by a rattlesnake? And also, actually, real quick, I want to add kind of like maybe you know, if somebody you might be out hunting, and you know, sometimes your dog is 200 yards, 300 yards out, and it might have gotten bitten, but maybe you didn't hear it, see it. So it's like what can you also kind of look and see what a dog might look like if it did get bitten? Kind of two sure two-part question there.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, what to do if the dog got bit, or if in that case where you don't necessarily know for sure. So I guess I'll preface this with I am not a veterinarian by any means. So um I will answer that to the best of my ability. Um, I do have a lot of knowledge in that area, but um maybe compare what I say to um you know local veterinarian or whatever. So anyway, a little asterisks there. But uh generally speaking, yeah. So if a dog gets bit, what do you do? So there's a laundry list of things like if you were to post that question on Facebook, for instance, you would get just a huge variation of comments, and most of them were would be flat out wrong, a lot of them would be just utterly ridiculous. Uh, and then there might be a few that are actually spot on. So um, yes, there's a lot, not only is there a lot of misinformation about rattlesnakes out there, there's a lot of misinformation about bites and what to do. And some of it has even crept its way into the veterinary world. Um, so for instance, like if the dog is bit by a small or a big snake, you know, you'll hear a rumor that smaller ones are more venomous. That's actually not true by any means. Uh, a bigger snake can do a lot more damage, they have a lot more volume of venom in their much larger, more developed glands than a tiny little baby. And so um, you because of that rumor, you might get a vet who's misinformed that treats a baby bite more aggressively, and that wasn't necessary. So, anyway, I'll just say there's a lot of misinformation. So, hopefully, I can clear some of that up. Um, but generally speaking, there's more of a list of what not to do because so many of those things have taken off. So, for instance, the snake bite kits, the little suction devices, waste of money, don't do anything, so don't bother with those. Um, you will hear people say, oh, Benadryl is supposed to help. Benadryl is an antihistamine. There is no histamine reaction with rattlesnake venom, so Benadryl doesn't do squat for them. Um, so that that's out. Uh, and by the way, a lot of the stuff I'm saying, there's a to to give sources, there's a group, and it's actually on Facebook, ironically, which is not usually somewhere I'd say to get any good information, but um, there's a group called National Snake Bite Support, and it's a group that was founded um and it started on Facebook, and it's it's a bunch of the leading veterinarians and medical doctors who basically got together, and toxicologists who got together and uh set up kind of like a poison control for snake bites specifically on Facebook. So if you have an active bite, like if your dog got bit, you can post a picture right on there, and um, they don't give direct medical advice, but they or advice, but they will give you um current research. They'll provide everything you need if you feel like you need to advocate for yourself. So if your dog's bit and you don't feel like you're getting good treatment, you can list on there what your vet is doing. And if if you if they notice any discrepancies, they'll provide resources that you could then give to that doctor and say, hey, this is actually what you should be doing. So anyway, sorry, I'm getting a little bit on a tangent there, but going back to the, you know, what do you do? Honestly, at the end of the day, the best snakebite kit isn't uh isn't those little suction devices or anything like that. Um, as a friend of mine, Dr. Chris Jenkins, he actually does podcasts as well, uh, more on the reptile side of things. He says the best snake bite kit is a uh a cell phone and a pair of car keys. And so basically, if your dog was to get bit, the it's an internal issue when they get bit when venom's in their system. You can't get it out. There's no pill, at least not yet, that you can have on hand to give them. And so your goal is to get to an emergency vet as soon as possible. It I'm not saying your dog's gonna die in a matter of minutes, but the venom just causes damage. The the quote is time is tissue. So the the longer venom, active venom is in their bloodstream, the more damage is gonna be done. And so you just want to get to an emergency vet as soon as you can. And I say emergency vet because they tend to have anti-venom in stock and they end up tend to always be open. And so whether the nearest emergency vet is five minutes or five hours away, you want to just get there as soon as you reasonably can. And uh thankfully, dogs handle rattlesnake bites relatively well in terms of just you know, there's absolutely dogs that die from it, but um generally they can survive it with a few vials of anti-venom, whereas a human often needs, like, you know, for crowfab, they might need 10 vials right off the bat, and then another 20 later on uh throughout the treatment process, whereas a dog might need only one or two vials. So uh, and they're different products, so it doesn't quite compare perfectly, but I'll just say they need a lot less anti-venom, and uh, and usually if they're a good-sized dog, they can they tend to survive it on average. Um, so just don't panic, know that your dog should survive, but just get them to help as soon as you can to minimize you know permanent damage. And um, even the dogs that survive it doesn't mean they don't have you know nerve damage or other issues. But um, yeah, and so part of what that can look like too, in terms of just being prepared, you know, do stuff like snake avoidance training, like we offer, but also like anytime you go on a hike or a walk or a backpacking trip, whatever you're doing, just kind of know where the best vet option is at all times. So God forbid it happens, you at least have a plan and you're not scrambling. Um, so yeah, if you're on a hunt and you're out in southeastern Arizona and then you're as the emergency vet as in Tucson, even if it's two hours away, like just have the address already written down and start heading there if it happens. And uh yeah, that can end up making a big difference on whether the dog survives or not, or if there's minimal damage versus maximum damage. And uh yeah, trying to think um I could I could go on, but any other questions on that that I uh no, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

I mean, that's that's some of the advice I've heard too is just getting to a vet as soon as possible. And um I think you've made a really good point that wherever you go hunting or on a hike, like you know, you might know where the closest vet to your house is because you're thinking about it all the time, but that's probably the least time you'll need it is when you're at your house. When you're on a hike or hunting in your southeast Arizona or you're in Sedona or you're anywhere but home, that's when you really need a vet and know where they are. And I think in those moments of panic, you kind of forget like where to look for a vet and find one, and that could save you uh a lot of time to just have that already written down and know exactly where you need to go.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Yeah, exactly. And then you know, and it's pretty easy to do like uh you know, if you're planning a trip somewhere, you know, you can easily call the local vet and be like, hey, you know, because some there's some places that don't even have emergency vets, it might be hours to the nearest one, but they have their normal, you know, smaller veterinarians, and that's where uh our office is, and that's where you could, you know, simple phone call. Hey, do you guys stock anti-venom at all times? Do you um do you have experience treating snake bites? You know, you could ask these questions.

SPEAKER_03 55:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

And you know, if they answer them well, then you're probably in good hands. And if they, you know, can't answer them well, then then maybe you're gonna have to try a different um place. And you know, some of these vets too, even though they're not 24-7, um, you know, they might have a doctor who will meet you there if something was to happen, you know, early in the morning or after hours or something. So um, yeah, it could be as simple as a phone call, but uh it's an emergency preparedness plan basically. And I think it's always a good idea, not just for snake bite, you know, other things can happen too. And so um just kind of working that into the planning process of all these fun trips that we do, you know, it's not a bad idea. Um, the other thing too is like I said, the emergency vets tend to stock anti-venom. Sometimes smaller vets, because of the financial burden of anti-venom, some don't even stock it. They just defer all those um cases to the emergency vet offices. So that's another reason it's important to plan is if you bust your butt trying to get to a vet and you get there and they don't have anti-venom, they gotta transfer you. You know, you could have saved a lot of time by going straight to the emergency vet. And so that's uh, you know, that that's that's another reason why.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Yeah, I mean it takes five to ten minutes to figure out where the closest veterinarian with anti-venom is, you know, whether it's ten minutes away or like you said, five hours away. Just it takes the planning and preparation ahead of time is gonna save you the headache after after this fact.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Well, have you seen or had any personal experiences with rattlesnake bites or with dogs getting bitten that you know you've had to deal with and kind of some of the takeaways you got from that if you if you did experience any of that?

SPEAKER_02 57:31

So uh where do I start with that? So I I have been working with venomous snakes for let's see, 12 years now, I think. And in that time, and so when I say working with venomous snakes, you know, I'm mostly talking about the dog training, but one thing a lot of people don't know, we have a whole rattlesnake zoo basically. We have like a nature center with a bunch of them on display. I've got species from South America to Canada and everything in between. So we have a huge collection of rattlesnakes. So I'm you know cleaning exhibits, I'm doing field trips for kids in the heated afternoon when it's too hot to train dogs. So my life revolves around them very much. And I attend conferences about venom and things like that. So try to stay educated and all that, and uh, which has really paid off because in those years I have screwed up twice where I got bit by a rattlesnake, uh both in the right hand. One and first bite was in the index finger, second bite was uh my middle finger, and neither of them had anything to do with the dog training. It was uh because we you know we muzzled the snakes. A lot of people ask, how many times have you been bit? Never been bit or even had a close call doing the whole muzzling thing. My screw-ups were just dumb mistakes. I won't even get into it. In one case, I was just taking a picture of one a little too close, didn't realize I was within strike range. And so, anyway, complacency, yeah, I'm not proud of it in the slightest. But I will say I've learned a lot from what it feels like, the treatment process. I know my local toxicologist really well now. Um, so yeah, so anyway, um, yeah, it's uh I mean, and both bites are pretty different experiences. The first one did not hurt immediately, it hurt really bad hours later. The second one, swelling was almost instantaneous. Like I could almost see it swelling. Uh, it was so fast. And uh, yeah, so you know, and similar dogs, it can be across the board too. But generally speaking, and I guess I didn't really answer this. The other question about if the dog is off, you know, how do you know if they got bit? So, yeah, generally speaking, if one or both fangs made successful penetration, you're usually gonna see um a bloody spot where um because not only do they get poked by the fangs, the venom itself um is often uh um you know like an anticoagulant. Their venom is is hematoxic. So sometimes it it's procoagulant causes clotting, sometimes it goes the other way, but usually they bleed out the side of the bite wound. Um so you'll see blood. And uh, you know, you see two fang marks, you know, that tells you it was more than likely a venomous snake, you know, things with fangs, you know, spider bites can sometimes look like that too. But um generally you'll see fang marks, and uh that's going back to my swelling comment from seconds to hours later. The the some if there's venom in their system, there's going to be more than likely some swelling. Um, not always. They're I don't want to, the exceptions aren't always worth talking about, but you know, we have Mojave rattlesnakes in Arizona, and they're a really fascinating species because they're they have different venom types even within their own species. You can have, so for instance, the Mojave rattlesnakes in California and the Mojave rattlesnakes in you know New Mexico don't necessarily have the same venom, even though they're the same species. So they carry sometimes a hemotoxin, sometimes a neurotoxin, and sometimes a combination of the two. If it's strictly neurotoxin, sometimes you have these bites where you see the fang marks, but there's no swelling, but the dog is having uh neurological issues, so like its lungs aren't functioning properly and they're shutting down. So in in the rare case, it was a like a Mojave rattlesnake bite that was entirely neurotoxin. You may not see major swelling, but you'll see other symptoms. But generally speaking, with most rattlesnake bites, you'll see astronomical swelling in a pretty short amount of time. So if you were to Google rattlesnake bite, you know, dog, like those keywords, you would see a lot of photos that look fake, like they look like Photoshop, but it's you know, dogs with their faces swollen up like basketballs. And uh that's that's definitely a rattlesnake bite. Usually by the time they're that swollen, it tended to be, you know, well over an hour later. But um within minutes, though, you usually can start to see some pretty severe swelling kicking in. And uh, yeah, so major swelling, uh, other symptoms, you know, they're they'll they'll be in pain, so they might be pawing at their face a lot, or or if they get bit on the paw, it might be, you know, limping and holding it up or something. Um hearing so we do deal with a lot of dogs who have been bit before, and their owner does not want to go through that again, and so that's why they find us. And you know, one of the ways we advertise is through local veterinarians, and uh we've had people come in and I always I always ask them, you know, their bite stories and experiences, and you know, sometimes the dog just yelped and jumped out of nowhere, they didn't even know what happened. Other times they saw the rattlesnake, it was rattling, and the dog ran right up to see what it was, and they just watched it happen. Um, so you know, it's kind of across the board, but generally, unless you don't see it happen, you know, look for fang marts, look for symptoms of pain, of um, of swelling and all that. And that's that's just some of them. And then, of course, the veterinarians will take a closer look. So if you get to a, you know, you think the dog got bit, but you're not sure, they don't just immediately treat with anti-venom. Uh most, you know, the good veterinarians are gonna look at blood work, they're gonna look at um the symptoms upon presentation and monitor them over time because not all bites warrant anti-venom. Uh, I would say if there's any venom in their system, most of them should. But if it's a super mild bite or in the lucky chance it was a dry bite, so that's a whole nother thing, is sometimes a snake will strike, but they choose to hold back their venom, or they didn't quite get a good bite, or there's something wrong with the delivery system of their venom in that particular bite, to where you'll see like a pair of fang marks, but there's no symptoms. So that means no venom got in the system. I do know a couple people whose dogs suffered a dry bite, they watched it get bit and uh could see fang marks and bleeding and stuff, but it was just from the poke of the fangs, they never showed any symptoms. Their blood work was perfectly normal. And so those don't happen as often as I wish, but uh dry bites are another possibility. Um, and you will read online that like half 50% of straddlesnake bites are dry bites. That's total nonsense. That's not accurate at all. Uh most bites do end up having some amount of venom in them.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't even take the chance. Do you know what I mean? It's there's no way of knowing. Um, and it's better to just go to the vet and then they can determine with blood work. But um Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

And that's I've had some stories like that where they saw a couple bloody spots and thought could have been snake, but the dog seemed okay. So they went ahead and continued doing what they were doing. You know, a lot of times the worst of that swelling and pain and other symptoms, you know, it comes you know, an hour later. And at that point, if you're if you haven't even left yet, like you're you're in the negative at that point. You need to get out of there quick. But um, yeah, so that's where uh you always say time is tissue. If you think the dog got hurt, you know, hike over at that point. Let's let's get to a hospital. Worst case scenario, you sit in the parking lot and monitor the dog a little longer, you know. But uh, you know, be there as soon as you can. And if you start to see any signs of venomation, again, it can be lethal for a dog. It's and at minimum, it's horribly painful. So if you know, you can spare them a lot of, and I I can say that unfortunately from experience. Like I've I've suffered two bites, and my second one in particular, um, and those are the most painful experiences I've ever had in my life. Like, it's it's pretty, it's pretty rough. Um, I would I would say I was on the line of borderline shock, it hurt pretty bad. Um, so yeah, if you can spare your dog some of that pain too, you know, take it seriously and uh know that they probably won't die from it, but yeah, that doesn't mean don't get them help. Get them everything they need, and uh any good vet should be able to handle it. Thankfully, there's quite a few in Arizona that um are great. Um, that is one thing I will mention though. Not all vets are equipped to treat a rattlesnake bite. You know, you get a student who graduated veterinary school and moved out here and started a practice and get their very first snake bite and they're in over their head pretty quick. And so um, I don't want to say don't trust a vet, but um have a little education on your or on your own to to know like if they're getting good treatment or not. If the dog is swollen up like a balloon. And their blood work is all over the place, and they're saying we're gonna give steroids and Benadryl and this and that, but never mention anti-venom, you're probably not in good hands. Like if there's any major swelling and your dog is in pain and having a lot of coagulopathy and other blood stuff going on, like they need to have anti-venom quickly. And so going back to that Facebook group I was talking about called National Snake Bite Support, that's another reason that has popped up is there's a lot of dogs that aren't getting ideal treatment. And so um, and there's a lot to that. I don't think snake bite is covered super well in veterinary school, and then on top of that, some of the the initial early anti-venom products that came out, there was a high rate of reactions to it, like allergic reactions and stuff to the to the anti-venom. Uh nowadays, the products themselves are eons better. The purification process to make them pure is really good. And so um there's far less, both human and dog, like far less cases of of bad reactions to the treatment. And so the problem is though, is I think that that in some practices, you know, created stories of oh, this dog had a horrible reaction to the anti-venom, we're never gonna use it again. And that gets passed down from you know, stories over time at that practice, and that's why they might be hesitant to use it. So that's something else to be aware of. Is nowadays the anti-venom products are fantastic, um, and the vet should not be afraid to use them. And uh yeah, they're safe, they work great, and that's what your dog needs, and you gotta get them there and get it in their system as soon as soon as possible, if they are truly bitten and showing signs of envenomation.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

Yep, that's good to know. Uh, I wanted to touch back on something you mentioned, and uh, I don't know if this is true for the rattlesnakes here, the Western Diamondback in Arizona, but you were talking about um, I think a snake in New Mexico, like that they have through like their way their venom works could be three different, like the same snake can have, I think you said like a neurotoxin, a coagulating, and then an anticoagulating, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

Yeah, so hemotoxic or neurotoxic, or basically, yeah. Hemotoxic is kind of just a generic way of saying that it poisons the blood specifically, like it targets blood and the cells and our red blood cells and things like that. So, yeah, and the neurotoxin, just different pathways of how it affects the body.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:17

So are these um like different snakes just had different venom, or is it like these snakes change their venom, or is this something that um the Damebacks here in Arizona do that? You know what I mean? Like, because you were saying there could be it could be different how it affects your um animal, or how that bite could could turn out. So just curious, like, is that um like do they do the snakes change it themselves, or is it like one snake is born one way, or I don't even know if that even makes sense, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

Yeah, no, no, I totally get what you're asking. And and actually that that is uh kind of a whole new world of research right now because for years um that was pretty well known about the Mojave rattlesnake, but they're finding out that it's true of a lot of rattlesnakes, and what you get is they call it like a geographic variation, where you know, the snake found in habitat of this region might have a different venom than the snakes in this habitat that's different in a different region. And it makes sense um because you know, if you know, like for instance, with the Mojave rattlesnakes, if they are living in an area that is predominantly full of the little kangaroo rats you see hopping around at night on the road and stuff, like you know, a hematoxin might work really good on that rodent. But you travel a hundred miles, you know, east and they're not as abundant there, but there's a lot more fence lizards or something. Like, you know, railsnakes prefer rodents, but they'll they'll there's certain species that prefer lizards, or some that are generalists that'll eat both. And Mojaves, diamondbacks included, they'll eat, I mean, they'll eat birds, they'll eat uh, they'll eat rats, they'll eat mice, they'll eat um uh they're generalists in that sense. They they don't they don't eat other snakes typically, but um, but yeah, it's all to say the venom that affects that kangaroo rat won't affect a lizard that is a completely different organism, it won't affect it the same. So a lot of the geographic variation they think has to do with just, you know, that there's venom variation in individuals, but it would make sense that the snakes that have a certain diet in a certain area that their venom is more adapted to that particular area and the prey items found in that area. And so that's where you see this geographic variation. Uh, and that's not true for all species, but as they've done research, it's been shown that um you know there's some species that you find snakes at opposite ends of their ranges and their venom's pretty much the same. Um, and then you find others like the Mojave where it can be different. Um, prairie rattlesnakes are another one. So in Colorado, I think it's I-80, I want to say. Whatever freeway basically cuts the state in half horizontally. Um, the prairie rattlesnakes that are north of that, um, I might have this flip-flop, but I think they have a high amount of there's a chemical in venom that's called um, I think for them it's SVMPs, which is snake venom metal proteases. It's either that or S um, yeah, anyway, I won't go into the biochemistry of it. But anyway, there's that, and then the ones south of the highway have a myotoxin, so it's a little bit different. And that I might have that flip-flop. It could be the ones that are north have the myotoxin. But all to say, literally, that freeway is kind of almost like a dividing line. Um, and that's not necessarily what divides the venom. It probably has more to do with, you know, they built the freeway there for a reason. It was an easy way to spot to put a road, but everything north of there, the habitat's different, the food's different. So the snakes there have a specific venom type, and then the ones south of there have a different one, and it's because the prey is different down there. So certain species, yeah, there's variables. And to make it even more complicated, um, and this is probably where that rumor of baby rattlesnakes are worse than adults started, is there has been uh evidence of what they call ontogenic change, where a like a baby rattlesnake might have a little more neurotoxin in it, and say that works better on lizards because a baby rattlesnake is not eating rodents right away. It can't take down like a baby diamond bat can't eat a pack rat. And so they're gonna be eating things like bandit geckos or fence lizards or whatever. And so uh they they've showed that you can have variation in venom as they age, like a baby rattlesnake might have a little more neurotoxin, and then it graduates to to eventually a uh hemotoxin that there is more efficient on rodents. So, yeah, so basically you have geographical variation, you have individual slight variation, then you have these ontogenic variations where the snake changes its venom as it ages. They don't necessarily change on the spot, they don't really have a lot of power over that. It's more just um it's what they're born with, and there's you know genetics that influence its change over time, but they can't like you know, not like us where if you're deer hunting, you can change the rifle and cartridge on the fly. It's uh for them, they're they're they have what they have. And it's kind of yeah, it's programmed into their their genetics and their what they're adapted to for their food and stuff. So, and at the end of the day, too, this is probably important to mention, um, I'm talking slight variations. One rattlesnake's venom is not so entirely different from another that it doesn't that it affects the treatment. So thankfully, the anti-venom products that are used to treat snake bite, and this is true for humans and dogs, it's what's called a polyvalent, and they use all different rattlesnake and as well as cotton mouth and copper head venoms in this polyvalent, to where whether you get bit by a pigmy rattlesnake in Florida or a sidewinder in Southern California, it's the same anti-venom. Um, and so really at the end of the day, there was a rumor that you have to know what kind of snake it was and all that. It's not true in the United States, at least for pit vipers. Um, it's the same treatment for um for all rattlesnake and um copperhead and cotton mouth bites across the board. The only thing different is coral snake bites, but that's a different anti-venom product. But um for so you don't even you don't need to know if it was a mahogany. Even if they're showing signs of neurotoxicity or hemotoxicity, the anti-venom products are made to cover both. So um luckily it doesn't matter treatment-wise. They're gonna look at the they don't care what kind of snake bit the dog, they're gonna look at the symptoms, and that's gonna determine how aggressively they got to use anti-venom or not. Um if that makes sense. So I don't want to say all that to have people freak out, oh, this is complicated. I need to know what kind of snake in what region it was found. Like the scientists love looking at that data, but at the end of the day, for your for your pet, it doesn't matter. It's gonna, you know, the anti-venom is gonna cover all the the bites just the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

That's good to know. Yeah, and I I was more so just you know interested and curious on that because um you had mentioned it and I just thought that was really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:55

You might see slightly different symptoms, like I was saying, but um, but yeah, thankfully the treatment's the same.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:00

Yeah, well, I'm glad like you know, you don't have to get bit and start thinking like what symptoms are you feeling and and then take the according uh anti-vetom it works for either situation. So um that's good. But yeah, that was just a a question of mine because I didn't know you know if you'd might seen that in uh these uh rattlesnakes, the western diamondback rattlesnakes.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:26

Yeah, that's one that um they have a huge range. I mean, they are found from Southern California all the way to parts of Oklahoma, south through Texas, deep into Mexico. So they have a big range. So I'm pretty sure if you were to take a venom sample from like a Southern California snake and then a snake down in Mexico, I would imagine there's some variation. But like I said, they are a generalist species, they're not very picky about what they eat. Um, they'll eat any kind of rodent, any kind of bird. And to give you like a relative comparison, you have things like uh like our state reptile, the originos rattlesnake. Like, yeah, it might eat a rodent if it gets the opportunity, but they're probably eating a lot of lizards. They're found in like a higher elevation part of like southeastern Arizona. Same thing with the twin-spotted rattlesnakes. So those are those are more lizard-eating species, but um diamondbacks usually aren't very picky. If they can eat it, they're going to. Um, and so because they're generalists, they they they might have, you know, it might be a uh pretty average looking venom across the board. But you know, it doesn't mean there's a unique population in the western part of their range. I'm just making this up, but they have a totally different venom. And I think because after the Mojave's that was kind of discovered, more and more scientists are looking at snakes from specific localities, looking at their their venomics and and seeing you know differences, and and they're kind of logging that data because uh I think even in Sidewinders, there was uh um uh there, I think one found that they that was tested and it it had a lot of neurotoxin in it, which is you know, they're not really known for that. So yeah, I think there's a quite a bit of variation geographically. Some species have way more variation than others, but it goes to show you no, no two bites are the same. And uh thankfully, like I said, the treatment's the same, but um in terms of what product is used, but uh yeah, you get it's it's across the board. And that's if you were to look at like a pie chart of their venom, like the different components of it, you know, it it's it's the same group, like different types of things, um, but some have way more of one toxin than another, and and things like that. That's why you see some little bit different symptoms or issues manifesting um when their blood work is done and stuff like that. But anyway, getting into the weeds there.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's interesting. I mean, it's it's just something that fascinated me. Um last question I have is um, what's your perspective on vaccines for snake bites? Kind of getting ahead of it and doing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:54

Yeah, and that one's speaking of getting into the weeds, um going back to that group I've referred probably twice now, and this will be the third time that National Snake Bite Support Um they published some info on you in the anybody can access it. It's I think it's in the files section or you can search it in the timelines. But um that vaccine's relatively new, and it I've heard when I first started doing this, I got asked a lot, and I talked to all the different veterinarians that have our info and have good relationships with, and I heard things across the board whether, oh yeah, it seems to work great versus like we don't think it works at all, we don't even stock it, and then you get some kind of in-between, they're like, Yeah, we stock it for people that want it, but we don't really know if it works. So a lot of mixed things, and just in the last couple of years, I had to kind of change my stance because the common answer I got was, oh, it's supposed to buy them at least sometime. And uh anyway, long story short, I I guess it does not work. Uh, there's no evidence that it works well at all. And in fact, there's some evidence that you shouldn't get it because there's dogs that have reactions to it, and then um there's even some concern about it sensitizing the dog to snake venom to where they have an allergic reaction to it if they were to get bit. So uh again, I don't want to get into the weeds about that. There might be people out there who their dog's been vaccinated, they had a bite and the dog did great. You know, that doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine worked. Like I said, dogs do survive rattlesnake bites often. And so um, yeah, I would say look that up, uh, look up the info they have published on your own to get the best answer directly from sources that are more credible than me. But um, yeah, unfortunately, it hasn't been shown to work well. And so I usually advised against getting it um until they come up with something that does work. And and it makes sense. Like Venom, it's it's you know, we have vaccines for things like viruses and you know, rabies are different things for dogs too. But um, venom is totally different, it's a cocktail of a bunch of different stuff working together, you know, that is just destroying tissue in your system, and one shot cannot make you immune to that. And so again, the thought was it would make you slightly immune a little better by some time. That was the thought behind it. But um going off the evidence from the studies that they've done on both rodents, and I think some um looking at dogs over time through multiple veterinarians and logging data, uh long story short, it just hasn't been shown to work, unfortunately. So, which sucks because I wish that I could say, yeah, get that between training and that and being educated, like you've done everything you can to minimize, you know, snake bite as an issue and uh you know all the added backup and stuff, but I can't with a clear conscience recommend the vaccine, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:44

Yeah, I mean that's that's a good perspective to have because I'm sure I don't even know how much it costs, but I'm sure it's not cheap to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:51

Um I don't think it's super expensive. I'll you know, I've heard different things. I don't know if the dosages change or different bets handled differently. I thought it was like once a year, and then I had somebody say, Oh no, you do two the first year, and then it's once a year booster after that or something along those lines. But I've had people come in here that I didn't even ask my opinion on the vaccine. They said, Yeah, my dog had a horrible reaction to it, so that's out of the options, and so they want their dog trained and stuff. But um, so yeah, I just it's unfortunately not super well studied. And I think as of recently, it's been shown that it doesn't work well, which you know could be a blessing in disguise if that means that more research is put into something that does work, then that might end up being a good thing. But um, until that happens, as of right now, it's yeah, it's been shown to not have any benefit and even have some side effects. So I would advise against it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:41

All right. Well, that's you know, that's a good take. And I think from there, as a listener, do your research, make sure, you know. You know, he's he pointed out that there's groups online, Facebook group, that can provide more uh research on that on different questions you might have had that we didn't talk about, or just other things that you've been thinking about. And so something like uh vaccine, it just isn't enough definitive proof. So I would say don't take the risk on something like that. If it does cause a reaction, and um if it does work, I mean it's just you don't know. It could work, but I think something like a training is kind of like saving you that vaccine requirement.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:25

Yeah, I mean, I say our process is designed to be preventative. Um, so you're hopefully you know preventing the issue from happening in the first place. And again, I wish the vaccine worked great because then you would be as covered as you could be. You got something in their system that's gonna help their immune system, and you got training to prevent it in the first place. You've doubled down on everything you can, and but uh yeah, unfortunately with it, it's yeah, do research. And you know, again, Facebook is such a like turn-off because it's not a great place to get information. But the key thing is Facebook is the tool they've used to get information out there. But the source of all this is from leading veterinarians on snake bites. So uh a friend of mine, Corey Woolliver, he's a uh veterinarian in Florida that I think he works with the university there, and he gets coral snake bites, he gets pygmy rattlesnake bites, and he gets eastern diamondback bites. So he sees a lot of bites of varying, you know, um symptoms. And Florida's interesting because the two species I just mentioned, the pygmy rattlesnake and eastern diamondback, that's basically the smallest and the largest species of rattlesnake in the United States, and they're both found in the same state. So he sees some of the most mild bites up to some of the most intense dog is in full-on shock on death door bites when they come in. So he sees a lot of bites. But anyway, so you know he's a great credible source that's on there. Um, there's several other veterinarians on there. Um, and then there's human doctors too. So um Dr. Spencer Green, he's he's in Houston, and he's probably treated the most rattlesnake bites out of anybody in the country. And um, he's a great source for just current knowledge and treatment protocols for all North American pit viper bites, as well as coral snake bites. Two people get bit by those in Texas as well. So, anyway, again, I want to stress that these are great sources who are using Facebook as a tool to connect with everyday people. And uh, and what I like about the board is when you're posting on there, if you have an active bite or whatever, um, you get to interact with those doctors as they're giving you information. Nobody else is allowed to comment though. So you don't get a bunch of fluff, like, oh, slap an egg on it, or a band a band-aid with this herb will suck out the venom, or you know, whatever. You're not getting a bunch of that. It's it's all like just the doctor saying what needs to be done and what's accurate, and that's it. There's no fluff. And so, um, yeah, good resource. And again, I bring that up because they they talk a lot about the vaccine, and I would rather burden some of those experts about it because I almost hate getting the question because it's uh uh no no I don't mind you asking it, but I'm just saying like I I wish I knew a little more about why it doesn't work and you know how like maybe a future product would, but I have a hard time speaking on it, yeah. Um just because I don't follow all of the the medical part of it, but I do at least understand that it's been shown to be not what it's do what it's supposed to.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:14

Do you want to just share one last time the name of that group on Facebook?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:18

Yeah, uh it's called National Snake Bite Support and fantastic resource. One thing, the other thing they have on it too is um there is the and this is you can download this to your phone. There is the veterinary treatment algorithm for treating a rattlesnake bite and dog. So you you can download that right to your phone and you basically have in your pocket what every veterinarian should be following when it comes to treating, you know, assessing the dog right off the bat and then determining whether they need anti-venom or not. And it's like a you know flow chart sort of thing, or if it's experiencing these symptoms, go to this box, yada yada. So I'm not saying everybody needs to know all that, but if you read it even just once, you're a lot more informed than the average dog owner on how to treat a rattlesnake bite. And so you know a little bit more what to expect. And so instead of just going in blind and trusting the vet, you have a little, you know, background knowledge and can speak their language a little better. Um, and and also I think why it exists is I don't ever want to have people distrust their vets, but there are some out there that again don't know snake bite treatment very well, and so that's kind of why that's kind of why this group was created was to make sure that um not necessarily to expose those vets, but to help them like say, hey, this is what's current, you should be doing this. And you know, any good humble vet is gonna go, oh wow, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, we need to implement that into our practice. And so end of the day, it's a great group that's made snake bite treatment better. And it's it's just so you know it's the right one, um, it should have that treatment algorithm, at least some of that info in the banner of the the group. Um, and I think it's got like close to 300,000 members or something. It's pretty big. So but I think a couple other fake ones have popped up since just you know, scammer jumping on the popularity of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:01

But um, if it's the right one, you'll see all the files there and and uh and it'll ask, like, hey, do you recognize you're not allowed to comment unless you have like an active bite? You can interact with the doctors, but that's it, you're not allowed to comment on anybody's post. And they take that seriously, and it's not because it's a whole power trip thing, it's because they don't want all that fluff showing up. Yes, it's gotta be it's gotta be the right info, and that's it. So that's why it is the way it is, and I think it's a great resource for being a bridge between the veterinary world and everyday pet owners and helping them understand more about snake bite treatment and and you can you can ask questions on there too. So you're allowed to like start a new post and ask questions. So what I recommend is maybe don't ever comment or say anything. Like I said, you're not supposed to, but read through everything on there and you'll learn a ton of info and you have access to the studies and stuff to really really educate yourself on snake bite and uh both human and and veterinary. We have links on our website too, by the way. So if anybody has trouble finding it, if you go to our website, rattlesnakeready.com. Um there is uh I think it's under the toxicology tab. I could be wrong, but I don't visit my website as much as everybody else does. But if you scroll down, you'll see links with their logo, and you just I think you can just click their logo, it'll take you right to the page, and then you'll know that you found it. Um so anyway, great resource. I feel like every dog owner should should be a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:25

Awesome. Okay, well thank you, Cody, for taking the time. Where can we? I know you just said the website, Rattlesnake Ready, but how can people get uh get involved and connect to you with training and and what's the best way for them to find you and reach you and find out more about this rattlesnake ready training?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:43

Yeah, definitely. So we actually have two websites, kind of two things going on. So if you are interested in training, which I'm sure most of your audience will be, so if you're interested in training or have questions about it or want to learn more about it, yeah, the the website for the dog training is uh www.rattlesnakeready.com. Just all one word, rattlesnake ready.com. Um, we lay out the process step by step on there, it's pretty transparent, straightforward. Everything's there. There's a good FAQ section and uh pricing, all that info is is there on the website. If you're more interested in learning about snakes or our little zoo facility, where we have, as far as I know, the largest, most diverse rattlesnake collection in the country. Um, we have another website called rattlesnakeranchaz.com. So we call the property rattlesnake ranch. Um, rattlesnake ready is specifically the dog training. A little confusing, but we're the same people. And I partly did that because our reptile crowd and our fur baby crowd are very different. And so we have you know separate social media. I don't want to bombard the puppy people with snake photos, and you know, the the reptile people aren't as interested in the dog stuff. So two different crowds. So we have two different websites. If you want to learn more about rattlesnakes in general and uh or our zoo facility, the rattlesnake ranch az.com is the website for that. And there's they cross-link, so if you're looking through one, you'll see links to the other and stuff like that. But um, yeah, so those are both ways that you can learn more about us, and then uh yeah, and then you could always email us or call us as well. Um, those contact info um that's all on the website too.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:23

Awesome. So if you guys are interested in doing rattlesnake aversion training, I'd recommend that. Ryan and I are going to get that set up for us. But uh once again, thank you so much, Cody, for joining on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:39

Yeah, great. Thanks so much for for having me. Hopefully, I didn't talk too much.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:43

No, no, until uh until next time, guys, remember to get outside. Thanks for listening in. To help further our work, please consider making a tax deductible game. Visit us online at azquail today.com and be sure to follow us on social media for the latest information and updates. Till then, remember to get outside.