Ashamed to Admit
Episode #10 One word: Ryvchin
In their Season One Finale, Dash and Tami are joined by the Co-CEO of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry and internationally acclaimed author Alex Ryvchin … and his better half Vicki to talk about their life post Oct 7, including Alex’s glow up. Plus a new litmus test for friendship and an angry instagram comment.
Articles mentioned/ adjacent to the ideas explored in this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/a-parents-perspective-i-dont-feel-safe-anymore
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/no-place-for-this-in-australia-or-anywhere-else
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/watch-antisemitism-since-october-7-australia-and-beyond
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
(You can also email voice memos here).
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_writer_celebrant and dashiel_and_pascoe
X: TJI_au
YouTube: thejewishindependentAU
Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU
Instagram: thejewishindependent
LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
In their Season One Finale, Dash and Tami are joined by the Co-CEO of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry and internationally acclaimed author Alex Ryvchin … and his better half Vicki to talk about their life post Oct 7, including Alex’s glow up. Plus a new litmus test for friendship and an angry instagram comment.
Articles mentioned/ adjacent to the ideas explored in this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/a-parents-perspective-i-dont-feel-safe-anymore
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/no-place-for-this-in-australia-or-anywhere-else
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/watch-antisemitism-since-october-7-australia-and-beyond
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
(You can also email voice memos here).
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_writer_celebrant and dashiel_and_pascoe
X: TJI_au
YouTube: thejewishindependentAU
Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU
Instagram: thejewishindependent
LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
Ooh, yummy, pickle-licious, pickle-flavoured cucumber Crunchy, and ready to eat.
Speaker 2:I went out especially yesterday to buy these for our season finale Yep.
Speaker 1:And do they? What do they taste like?
Speaker 2:Like a pickle chip Mmm chip they're really good, dj and a picklelicious they really are crunchy and they really are ready to eat. There's no false advertising here. Are you ashamed to admit that you're not across some of the issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? I'm Tammy Sussman and in this podcast series I've been asking journalist, historian and TJI's executive director, dashiell Lawrence, all the ignorant questions that I and I suspect you are too embarrassed to ask.
Speaker 1:I'm Dash Lawrence and I'm going to attempt to answer most of Tammy's questions in the time that it takes you to perhaps locate your SUV the first time you leave it in a new Westfield car park. Sometimes I might have to bring in an expert and sometimes I will have a few questions of my own.
Speaker 2:But together, Dash and I are going to try to cut through the week or month's chewiest and jewiest topics.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast podcast. A shame to admit. Thanks for joining us. Episode 10, season one the finale of season one. I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 2:And I'm Tammy happy to swim in your urine, sussman.
Speaker 1:Whoa, where did that come from?
Speaker 2:So I've been keeping this one for the season finale like a big reveal. The big reveal is that I have autoimmune arthritis.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Basically, I can't run half marathons like you.
Speaker 1:I can run full marathons, by the way. Okay, I can't even, I just can't run full stop.
Speaker 2:I can't run. The only exercise that I can do is swimming, and now that it's getting to the cooler months, I have to move into the indoor pools. You know, a lot of the chat that I'm having with people is that they feel uncomfortable with the indoor pools because you know they're a lot warmer and everyone pees in the pool.
Speaker 1:Do you pee in the pool?
Speaker 2:Do I pee in the pool?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:My pelvic floor isn't what it used to be Okay. So yeah, I'm not ashamed to admit that I have peed in the pool on occasion, not necessarily on purpose and what a lot of people don't know is that urine is sterile. What I have a problem with is when I see people cleaning the mucus or the snot from their nose and mixing it around, stirring that in the pool water because that is not sterile. Do you reckon we could still be friends? This is a bit of a litmus test to friendship.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Are you comfortable with, like, if we were ever to swim laps together or jump into the ocean? Would it be okay with you if you knew that I might have a little bit of a piddle?
Speaker 1:Well, I can't swim, tammy, Really, I mean, I can swim, but I couldn't do a 50-meter pool. I couldn't, really. I could do 25 meters, oh, I'd be coughing and spluttering.
Speaker 2:I wasn't expecting that.
Speaker 1:No, I know I just be coughing and spluttering. I wasn't expecting that. No, I know.
Speaker 2:I just assume marathon runner like slash triathlete.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love riding a bike, which you can't do. No, but I can't. You've got that one on me. I'm okay with it, but in a country like Australia, where we're all expected to have some level of swimming competence, it's something that I'm not proud to admit, and it is something that I would like to change over time.
Speaker 2:All the big revelations. We kept them for episode 10, season one.
Speaker 1:So maybe this is something when I'm up in Sydney, you take me to your best pool, obviously outdoors. Now that you've, in fact, I would love you know where I'd love to go? Where? To the Bondi Iceberg.
Speaker 2:No, we're not cool enough to go there.
Speaker 1:Why not? What do you need to be?
Speaker 2:You need to be like you need to be a 10. And as I've, said before, I'm like a strong six on a good day.
Speaker 1:You need to be an Alex Rivchin.
Speaker 2:You do.
Speaker 1:Or a Vicky Ruvchin.
Speaker 2:Funny. You should mention that name. We'll just leave that little C there for a minute. So I know that it's kind of counterintuitive. I should be ashamed to admit that every so often I pee in a swimming pool. But actually there are some other things that I am ashamed to admit, and I've been holding these back from you for 10 episodes and I feel like, because this is our last show together before a break, I need to come clean. So every week I introduce you as the executive director of the Jewish Independent, and I still don't know what an executive director is Like. What do you do?
Speaker 1:Well, Tammy, look, I'm ashamed to admit that I have no idea either.
Speaker 2:Okay, a few episodes ago, I referenced Attorney General Mark Dreyfus.
Speaker 1:Yep, the Dreyfus Aff affair, as I now call that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the new Dreyfus affair. I'm ashamed to admit that I don't know what an attorney general does.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that is entirely acceptable, because it's an odd one, right? Like all the other ministers in a government are called foreign affairs minister or Minister for women, yeah, so on, right, but the attorney general is given this name. He or she are essentially although not always, they're usually a lawyer, usually someone that has some understanding of the law as it pertains to Australia.
Speaker 2:Are you doing a cheeky chat? Gpt search Are you ashamed to admit that?
Speaker 1:Look, yes, I am. I'm ashamed that I can't tell you off the top of my head what an attorney general is. I know that they're kind of like the lawyer for the government in any given whether it's the federal government or the state government and they're kind of the person in the government that deals with all the. There you go, wikipedia, charged with overseeing federal legal affairs and public security, as the head of the Attorney General's department. Now, that's the Attorney General at a federal level. They're Attorney Generals in all of the states.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're generals in all of the states, are they? Yeah, who knew? And then, finally, I'm ashamed to admit that actually I'm going to play something that a listener has sent in, because he has brought something to my attention which has caused me great shame.
Speaker 4:Dash and Tammy. There is something that I need to fetch about. If you were going to have a segment dedicated to the pronunciation police, then at least please get the pronunciation of the word pronunciation correct. It is pronunciation, not pronunciation. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Well, I've been saying pronunciation patrol, but it's pronunciation patrol.
Speaker 1:Yeah pronunciation.
Speaker 2:I'm not embarrassed to let the world know that I'm comfortable swimming in my own and other people's urine. But when it comes to pronouncing words, wrong.
Speaker 1:That's episode 10 of season one. We've given everyone plenty of heads up about the fact that we are taking a break over the next couple of months. Over the next couple of months. For those listeners that would like to know where they can hear your voice in the meantime, tammy, please tell me where we can find you over the next couple of months.
Speaker 2:So I'll be a panellist. At Limwood Oz, presented by Shalom in Sydney, we'll be exploring the creative landscape post-October 7.
Speaker 1:Well, funny, you should mention Limwoodos, tammy, because the TJI family will be there. We sponsor Limeros each year and Editor-in-Chief Deborah Stone and Commissioning Editor Michael Vizante will both be moderating sessions there, and our publisher Yuri Vint as well, will also be delivering one of his own sessions. So if you are in Sydney over the King's birthday long weekend and you have any plans to get to Le Moroz and you really should if you haven't before it's a wonderful part of the Australian Jewish community calendar Keep an eye out for sessions featuring Tammy, of course, and now members of our team.
Speaker 2:I'll also be coming to Melbourne in August for Melbourne Jewish Book Week. It's in your calendar, dash, just remember that you need to pick me up from the airport. And look, I'm not famous enough for Cameo or Swish.
Speaker 1:Potential sponsors of this show.
Speaker 2:But look, if you want me to leave you a boring voice memo to put your kids to sleep, I'd be willing to do that for the right price. Before we introduce this week's guest or guests, a clarification from last week. I referred to Design Down Under's Georgia Ezra and Richie Morris as proud Jews and you might recall Dash I said oh, proud Jews. Now, if I'm saying that out loud it sounds a bit like a bikey gang, like Proud Boys or Bra Boys, but it turns up I got all my boy bands mixed up so I went and just Googled it the Proud Boys. Have you heard of Proud Boys?
Speaker 1:Unfortunately.
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, you have. So the Proud Boys is an exclusively male North American far-right, neo-fascist militant organisation that promotes and engages in political violence, and they are classified as a terrorist group in many countries. Now, the Bra Boys are an Australian surf gang, so not a bikey gang, and they are based in the suburb of Maroubra in Sydney. Now, the Bra Boys do not associate with Proud Boys as far as I know, and Georgia and Richie are definitely not affiliated with either.
Speaker 1:So Tammy.
Speaker 2:On the topic of power couples, so Tammy on the topic of power couples, today's guests, like our power couple from last week, also have very big, proud Jewish energy. Earlier today, dash and I spoke to goddess queen Esther, not Vashti Eshet Chayil the one and only Vicky Rivchin and her husband Alex.
Speaker 1:Alex Rivchin is the co-chief executive officer of the Executive Council of Australian Jury, otherwise known as ECHA or ECADG. He's the author of internationally acclaimed books of history and politics, and even one for children, which he authored in 2020. In 2023, Alex was recognised as one of 25 global Jewish visionaries by the Jerusalem Post for his writing and advocacy.
Speaker 2:Vicky is Alex's better half. I could have prepared a bio, but mystery is hot.
Speaker 1:So enjoy this week's wide-ranging conversation with Alex Rivchin and Vicky Rivchin. We have to clear this up once and for all, and that is is it Rivkin or Rivchin?
Speaker 5:Rivchin.
Speaker 2:I win.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm so glad that we can set that straight for Australian jury.
Speaker 2:I've been saying Rivchin the whole time, just for the record. But then we've had some Russian friends who say, well, in Russia it's Rivkin.
Speaker 5:And it probably was, it apparently was, and then it became Rivchin, like during the Second World War. So we're like the only Rivchins in the world. Rivkins are a dime a dozen, but Rivchin is a unique name.
Speaker 2:There you go, okay, vicky.
Speaker 6:Yo.
Speaker 2:You're a small business owner, a mother, a friend, any other words you'd like to use to describe yourself. A poor cook? Okay, a poor housekeeper? Yeah, it's just interesting. You didn't use the word wife, wife, wife wife, wife.
Speaker 6:I'm a good wife. I'm a good wife. I'm a good supportive wife. I got him when he wasn't this good-looking stud muffin. He's aged like fine wine.
Speaker 2:I've got a question about that coming up soon. Vicky, I mentioned you in our very first episode wherein Dash dissected all of the Jewish organizations representative bodies, advocacy groups in Australia and I said that I was projecting. But I said you're probably sick and tired of community members telling you how hot and brave your husband is, when you probably just wanted him to get off the phone to that journalist and come back and stack the dishwasher. I owe you an apology, because some listeners have told me that that's actually a euphemism for stooping, stacking the dishwasher, Not at all no, no, you hit the nail on the head.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's true then.
Speaker 6:You couldn't imagine. Get off the phone, get off the interviews, get off.
Speaker 5:It was amazing insight because it's like you crept into our home and observed our nightly scene. It's exactly what happens. You know. My media guy is on the phone to me at all hours, or some journo and Vicky's lamenting how poorly I stacked the dishwasher. And I tell her it's not within my immediate skill set. I've given it my best go, but I can't do better, you know I put the bowl this way.
Speaker 6:Well see, that's the thing. So I ask him to stack the dishwasher, but he claims to not know how. Like he'll literally put bowls like on top of each other. Like he'll literally grab a bunch of bowls and just put them in there. Are you doing this on purpose, so that I don't ask you to do it?
Speaker 5:I'm not that strategic.
Speaker 6:It's just the best I can do His parents babied him very much.
Speaker 2:That's good insight. I think I was making that comment, you know, more broadly, we haven't, in this season, yet acknowledged all the people, the partners of people, who have been very involved in the community, and especially so post-October 7th.
Speaker 5:You know, since October 7th it's consumed every moment, every waking moment of my life and the waking moments are like 20 hours a day. And when you've got a wife and three kids and you pride yourself on being a husband and a father and being there for them and participating in their lives, like it places a very heavy burden on everyone. So you know, vicky's been incredible. Her mother, my mother-in-law, has been world-class. My parents step up Like it's tough. It's also tough kind of psychologically because the work, there's no segmentation, there's no compartmentalization between the work and the rest of your life. Like a week ago I was at my daughter's netball training at Moor Park and then I get a call from my media guy saying stay where you are.
Speaker 5:Channel 7 is coming with a camera, there's some hummus-themed cupcakes in West Sydney. Like what the hell are you talking about hummus-themed cupcakes? But this is my life now. So suddenly plans have to be made and changed and people have to come and take the kids away. So it's a great burden but it's nothing. When I look at my situation and our family's situation, it's a privilege and I've enjoyed every moment of it, as difficult as it's been, and it's brought us all closer. When I say us, I mean from a community level, from a family perspective. Everyone feels tied up. We all feel a sense of mission and purpose, but it's a team effort, like people see me on camera, but my professional team at DCAJ is world class and the things that Vicky does, you know, and, as I said, my mother-in-law, my parents. Nothing would happen without all of these people.
Speaker 2:Well, vicky, I'm usually very sarcastic on this show, but I just wanted to say genuinely to you and to all the people who are actually making households function and you are a business owner in your own right, so I'm sure that there are lots of personal sacrifices. I just wanted to say to you and to other members of the community the families just thank you, and we see you and we see the toll that this would take on you as well. I was going to ask you if, now that Alex is a B grade celebrity, has he become a bit of a diva at home? But you've already answered that question. You've told me that.
Speaker 5:I've always been a diva. I was made. For this moment, nothing's changed.
Speaker 6:That's the honest truth, that nothing's changed. I don't think he's loaded a load of laundry once in his life like that sort of stuff that hasn't changed. So maybe it's almost made easier from that perspective. But because now there's a valid excuse.
Speaker 5:That's right. I can justify now. No one bugs me as much as they used to.
Speaker 2:You mentioned that a media team just came to your daughter's netball courts. So do you strategically choose your outfits every day, like keeping in mind that there could just be a spontaneous media appearance?
Speaker 5:I should have learned by now that things you can't plan anything and things pop up at any moment. I should have learned that, but I haven't, and so like I've done. Abc interviews from tennis practice in a hoodie okay, um, you know, I did channel seven by the netball courts in a t-shirt, so they make it work okay, but you're quite well groomed in general. I like to think, so I take pride in my appearance when you got the job at ECAD.
Speaker 2:that's what everyone calls it, but you called it E-C-A-J. Well, is that how we should be pronouncing it, please, okay, e-c-a-j.
Speaker 5:Apparently the old guard of the organization resents e-cad for some reason.
Speaker 2:Okay, so community announcement public service announcement. When you got that job, did you think right, I've got to go get some Botox now.
Speaker 5:It didn't really come into my reckoning Okay, but it just when you do a job that requires, like this, much output, like it takes stamina. So I started kind of getting in shape. I broke a couple of office chairs literally they collapsed under my weight, you know and that was the final thing that prompted me to kind of take better care of myself. Okay.
Speaker 5:I thought I can't take expensing chairs. I'll be accused of embezzling Um but uh, but it helps. You know, like when, when you don't really sleep and you can't focus on your diet and and you know, and mental health and all those things I think being physically fit, it helps. So, it gives you some also stability, some in the life, in the day. It's important.
Speaker 2:I wanted to ask you about your workout regime, sure, but then you've told me you've only got 30 minutes and I've just remembered I'm not Gwyneth Paltrow, so I'm not going to do that. I just thought if you wanted to just name drop a brand of moisturizer or face wash that you use, we could. Perhaps they could be a potential sponsor of this show moving forward I do.
Speaker 5:The one thing that I use is a keels face wash. That's my one thing, okay you know self-care is important.
Speaker 2:Dash I fully taken over this interview. Did you want to add anything at this point?
Speaker 1:I I'm loving where the conversation's going Good. I didn't necessarily want to interrupt the entry into Alex's face wash regime, but I did just want to add one thing. When you know, I don't want the listeners to get the impression that you do shirk your domestic duties, Alex, I wanted to recount one particular moment. I think it was late last year. I was in Sydney for some work and it was on a Saturday and I was traveling down one of the main arterial roads in the eastern suburbs and happened to see you walking along the street with your children, Alex, and as a fellow father of young children I recognized the scene very well. You were corralling them and they were, like you know, little monkeys bouncing off each other and you and you looked exhausted, you looked absolutely shattered. But there you were, out on a Saturday making sure that you were having time with your kids and they were safe.
Speaker 5:Thank you. Thank you for acknowledging that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah, it's not always pretty, it's not, it's never easy, but, as you and I both know, dash, it's joyous. And again, I think, the harder that you work and when you go through a phase of life when things are just totally tumultuous and unpredictable and hectic and stressful, kids become all the more vital and it's the one way that my brain can really switch off, one way that my brain can really switch off. You know a lot of the things that I used to use to disconnect, like you know, watching shows or watching a ball game. They don't really work anymore, but the time spent with kids is the one thing that does kind of keep me grounded and give me some reprieve from the you know the grind, so it's great.
Speaker 6:But also he doesn't really have a choice on weekends because I work most weekends.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's most weekends. Yes, that's what I was going to say. What's your choice of reprieve? You're like you're palming the kids off to Alex. No, I'm working when I'm doing that. A glass of wine, she's the unsung hero. We've just had a little sneak peek into your workout regime, which I guess it's only natural. It would be journalistically irresponsible of me if I didn't mention your biceps at this point.
Speaker 5:It would be downright unethical, Tammy, if you mentioned them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would Vicky. Yes, the image of Alex slash his biceps holding the flag at the Sydney Mardi Gras earlier this year turned a few heads slash, turned a few people gay. For our international listeners, the Sydney Mardi Gras you'd probably call it your pride parade. So was having a husband who was a queer icon on your bingo card for 2024?.
Speaker 6:Look, I took that photo. I was there with him as we marched down. It was a really amazing moment, as we, you know, walked and marched with the Jewish community, but there were a lot of bystanders that were trying to get a kiss with Alex.
Speaker 5:I learnt a lot that evening, a lot about myself, but it was a beautiful experience, really well.
Speaker 2:I've heard that Alex Greenwich is a little bit pissed that there's a new hot Alex in town.
Speaker 5:I think he's got me licked anyway. Alex Greenwich. He's a very fine-looking man. If you know Josh Burns, I've often lamented that he usurped my position as the best looking male Jew in the country.
Speaker 2:No no, there you go. There've been polls in WhatsApp groups mother's groups, father's groups.
Speaker 6:I was just in Israel and we're sitting at a dinner table having a deep and meaningful conversation about Israel, and then someone's like something I need to tell you, vicky, I need to show you, rather, and she shows me whatsapp groups, family chats, and then it was like, woman after woman after woman showing me their whatsapp chats, sharing photos of my husband that must get really old.
Speaker 2:I enjoy it and you're like. You should have seen Alex when I first met him in the KFC car park when I was 16 years old.
Speaker 5:How'd you know about KFC? I worked at KFC.
Speaker 2:Dash, who's a proper?
Speaker 6:historian and journalist has done a bit of sleuthing Dash we didn't meet in a KFC car park but he worked in KFC with his mate, who was the mutual introduction.
Speaker 2:Is that something you wanted to keep under wraps, Alex? Is that not good for your personal brand that you worked at KFC?
Speaker 5:I don't think that would damage me. I think the fact that it ended with my dismissal might be, you know, not great, but I didn't have the same work ethic I do now. You know, and I was the one guy that worked at the front, like all the men were put at the back, the boys were put at the back cooking chicken. I was always too delicate for manual labour so I was at the front, but it didn't work out anyway.
Speaker 2:You were always the face of the spokesperson, weren't you?
Speaker 5:Of the chicken industry as well. That's where it all began, dash.
Speaker 1:Back to the mardi gras. Alex, I think you must have been one of the first, if not the first, jewish communal leader to participate in the mardi gras parade. Is that fair to say?
Speaker 5:you know, like the way it all came about. I had no sense of that, I wasn't aware when I went. I assumed there'd be other jewish communal leaders there. I've never been to mardi gras before, let alone marched. But it was just it't sit like people were thanking me afterwards, you know, like as though it was some heroic deed, and to me it was the easiest thing to do and it was the right thing to do, because what happened beforehand was, I mean, the way it all came about.
Speaker 5:I was contacted, as I am every day, by a journalist wanting to cover a story about this kind of hard left group within the LGBT movement that was trying to push the Jewish float out of the Mardi Gras because of their Zionism and all that sort of stuff, and that really awoke me to this issue and really, to my shame and discredit, I was really disengaged from the Jewish LGBT community. I just I wasn't aware of their issues, I wasn't in great contact with them, but this prompted me to speak with them more and understand their issues and it just dawned on me that they have fought for acceptance within the Jewish community for so long because of their LGBT identities and now they're being pushed out of the LGBT community because of their Jewish identities. I thought this is a scandal and I thought what can I do? And I asked what can I do? And so I offered because they felt unsafe, physically unsafe.
Speaker 5:There were police measures that were put in place evacuation points which was just again a scandal Like this is their day to march with pride and the fact that those measures were necessary, and I thought, if I can physically be there to make you feel more secure, then great, and you know a kind of awareness that it was a big deal for community to do that. I had no consciousness of that at all and I think if others want to follow suit and march in future years, I think that'd be a terrific thing. This is a beautiful segment of our community and they need our support. So I think everyone should offer it. I mean, it's the least we can do.
Speaker 1:Your path to leadership of ECHA in some ways was conventional because you came from a law firm. So if you've not worked in a law firm, you're not allowed to be a Jewish communal leader. No, I'm just joking. There's lots of other accountants that have also reached the leadership. But all jokes aside, the path that you have had is not conventional in that you were born in the former Soviet Union.
Speaker 1:You came here with your parents in the late 1980s as refuseniks. You were refugees in this country and you've spoken publicly about this before. Your family had virtually nothing when they came to this country no money, not a word of English, didn't have any friends or contacts here at all. So you came here with nothing. Yet Fast forward 30 years, I think, probably would have been from the date or the year in which you arrived, and there you are, the leader of the ECHA, the representative body for the Jewish community in this country. So really a remarkable turn. What motivated you to choose the path of leadership? Because you could, I'm sure, have stuck it out in law and pursued a very successful career there.
Speaker 5:Well, firstly, thank you for framing it in that way, dash. I'm flattered and I've never really reflected on that kind of life's journey. It's been my life and it seems simple and natural, but I guess it's unconventional. As you say, one of the things I observed when I joined the ECHA in a more junior capacity was that, you know, people would come to me and say, finally there's a Russian, you know, jew of Russian ancestry, working for the community and they set about this project, this mission of bringing the Russians in.
Speaker 5:There was this perception that the Russians were somehow roofed or detached from the rest of the Jewish community. I was going to set the example and I thought it was a nonsense from the get-go, because Russians, you know, they came here with immense barriers of language and poverty, a lack of Jewish faith, an understanding of tradition. There's this photo that the Jewish News took. It was our first Seder as a family, a month after we landed in this country, and I was looking at this photo and it's my family, my grandparents, around the table, my grandfather reading from a Russian language, haggadah, and then right in the middle of the table was a huge loaf of Russian rye bread on Pesach, on a Seder. We didn't have a clue, we didn't know what the hell we were doing. And so it was weird, because on the one hand, this community fought for us to liberate Soviet Jewry and to bring families like mine here so we could live freely as Jews and contribute, but on the other hand, they probably looked down on us to some degree as these kind of savages from behind the iron curtain.
Speaker 5:I didn't have a Jewish education. I went to public schools, then I went to Sydney Boys. I wasn't active in orgies, I wasn't a member of youth movements, but the thing that set me on my path was a deep sense of identity, a deep sense of being a Jew, knowing who I was, without necessarily knowing what that meant, but knowing with absolute certainty that I'm a Jew. And then you have certain formative events. There was an incident when I was a kid. We were living in an apartment in Randwick. We just moved in and the neighbor above us he saw my father, who's very blonde and fair blue-eyed and he was very genial and friendly offered him tools, whatever we needed to help settle in. Then he sees my mother, who's a classic jewess, as it were, of the tammy sussman mold pronounce it sussman.
Speaker 2:But okay, yeah, continue is it sussman. Yeah, you've, it's fine, it's whatever. This is your story, okay go on hiding her jewishness.
Speaker 5:Yeah, with my dad, it's unclear with. With her, all doubt is is extinguished, it's whatever. This is your story. Okay, go on. It was motivating her Jewishness. With my dad, it's unclear With her, all doubt is extinguished. And then he would stand on his balcony night after night and he would bellow at us in this like deep guttural roar. Hitler didn't finish the job. I will finish it for him. You know, and I was a kid of 12, 13 at the time, and it was like sincerely terrifying, you know.
Speaker 5:And when you face moments like that and all Jews have like this is a unique story. Every Jew carries stories like that. And when you hear the stories from your parents and grandparents of what it was like to be a Jew in the Soviet Union, you have a choice. You either hide your Jewishness, you become ashamed of it, maybe you side with your oppressors, or you embrace it and become determined to fight, and I've chose that latter path. I always wanted to be a lawyer. I became a lawyer, but I was wholly unfulfilled Because I had this yearning to give back and to advocate for something that I believed in. And that's what happened, and the CAJ gave me the vehicle to do that, and I've worked with extraordinary people there who are as devoted to the cause as I am, who are wonderful, who have nurtured me, and so that's kind of been the path.
Speaker 2:I noticed you just slipped in the fact that you went to Sydney Boys High, which is a selective school. That was a little flex that didn't go unnoticed. I've actually heard that Vicky's the smarter one out of the two of you. I just wanted to know has she ghostwritten your books or do you write them yourself?
Speaker 5:She's the inspiration, the muse. But funnily enough, Tammy, I know you're a published kids author and my kids love your book. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 5:They truly do. Thank you, it's a wonderful piece of work. But my kids' book on COVID that was all Vicky we were were sitting there and she said you should write a kid's book about COVID, and she laid it out for me and I listened to it. I said you know, that's a pretty good idea. I went down to what was then my office and I punched it out, you know, and I wrote it.
Speaker 6:So that was a Vicky production there's a lot of things that are a Vicky production. I'm definitely not the smarter one, it's definitely him, but I have some of the ideas. I've got the ideas.
Speaker 2:She's the one that gets shit done.
Speaker 5:She does, she's a doer. I like that.
Speaker 2:And I know we're not meant to comment on women's appearances in 2024, but I also have to say, for all the people out there talking about how hot Alex Rivchin is, vicky, let's just say that Alex is punching above his weight.
Speaker 5:I've always been punching above my weight, always.
Speaker 1:This next question, alex, is about what it has been like since October the 7th. You've given that you were leading ECIJ since 2018 and you'd been in some form of advocacy for the Jewish community for a number of years prior to that.
Speaker 5:Like you say, I haven't done anything that I haven't done before over this period. Really, broadly speaking, I've done media before and I've written and I've given speeches and I've debated, but to do it when the stakes are so high, to do it with this level of intensity and this level of scrutiny as well, in all forms. I mean there's the good side of it, where I feel really the love of the Jewish community, and when I meet community members and they tell me that something that I've said has made them feel better, like I can't tell you how that makes me feel. And it's not a matter of ego or whatever, or receiving compliments, but just knowing that at a dark time for our people, something that you've done makes someone else feel good. It's the most beautiful thing and that's what bolsters me and strengthens me to keep going and it offsets all the hatred. There's a lot of hatred as well, and so people scrutinize every word. There've been some really nasty incidents.
Speaker 5:I gave this talk for the Mariah Foundation and I was asked a question about how do you debunk the myth of genocide, and I gave an answer which I've given before and I said something along the lines that you know. I spoke about the definition of genocide, and then I spoke about how the same people that accuse Israel of genocide will say that Gaza is a concentration camp, an open-air prison, that Israel has every intention to annihilate the Palestinian people in Gaza. So if that was all true, given Israel's military might, a genocide would take about two days. So next thing I know is that there's a headline in some rag saying Rifkin complete genocide in two days. You know Israel should complete it and that went all over online, you know, and most people won't hit the link and listen to the audio and hear what I actually said, but to them it looks like Alex Rifkin is endorsing genocide.
Speaker 5:You know it's psychotic. So doing things with this level of scrutiny and pressure like it's new. But it's been fine. It really has been fine, because I believe in every single word that I say. I believe in the cause. I love this community. I've never felt so close to other Jews, either in Israel or here. It's been the greatest privilege of my professional career and I'll continue for as long as I'm able to and for as long as I need to, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Vicky. What about you? Has it worn down on you and really affected you this period? And, being alongside Alex, as he's, you know, had to play the role that he has within the community.
Speaker 6:I'm a lot more affected by a lot of the negativity than Alex is, and thank God he is the way he is. Well, I'll run to him, like did you see those comments? Did you see this person write this? He's like just turn it off, it just doesn't matter. He's like let me do what I do. You don't need to read all the crap and all the nonsense. And he helps me through that, because I am a lomber. I'm reading all the things going on all the sites, all the social media is really impacting me, but his attitude helps me come back down to earth.
Speaker 2:Alex, is it easier to pacify the Jewish community or your wife?
Speaker 5:I mean, they're all crazy. The more that I meet the community I realize that they're entirely Meshuggah. But I love them. And I love my wife in the exact same way. I love her craziness, you know she has a fire within her. She has a tolerable degree of psychosis which makes life exciting and I wouldn't have her any other way, you know. But also, like I've noticed with myself, my media director is the same way, you know, like he'll call me up in the morning and I'll be like how are you? And he'll be like not good, alex, not good. And the more kind of agitated he gets I find, the calmer I get. I just laugh at it.
Speaker 1:I know there are a lot of people in the community, be they in the Jewish community in Melbourne or in Sydney, who even think this week are feeling a heightened sense of vulnerability and insecurity in light of a relatively small but nevertheless disturbing form of graffiti across Mount Scopus school. So I can see how, for you, there is a very important need to feel grounded and to, I guess, maintain some perspective.
Speaker 5:In some ways I feel it's easier for me than for other members of the community because I have an outlet, I have a platform, whereas others, I think, feel this fury within that they have something to say but nowhere to say it and they will shout it online and no one listens and it's drowned out. I don't have that feeling, but you know, things aren't good out there and I saw it through the doxing, where I spoke to dozens and dozens of community members who were taking down Mazoozas and removing their online presence and changing addresses and spending all night in a police station because they were too afraid to go home. Just so many things have happened in the last seven or eight months. And then you have this terror plot in West Sydney and you hear that they were talking about stabbing Jews and the community doesn't even know what to do anymore. Like, what do you do with that information?
Speaker 5:And some have, I think, done things, perhaps rashly, taking their kids out of Jewish day school, like I said, taking down Missoula's, thinking that will somehow protect them, and others just simply have no idea what to do. I keep doing what I'm doing, like on the security side, like I see the chatter and it's dark and it's menacing and it's fixated and it's horrific. But I just carry on, you know, and I encourage members of the community to do that as well.
Speaker 1:So obviously, both you and your co-CEO, peter Wertheim, have regular briefings with, and contact with, the federal government and with leaders of political parties. Do you believe that both sides of parliament have the same level of commitment to Jewish safety?
Speaker 5:Yes, I do. I sincerely do you know. If you would ask me, do I have the same commitment to Israel and things like that and policy matters, then we could have a long discussion about that. But when you talk about commitment to the security of the Jewish community, I'm 100% sure that it's bipartisan, it's beyond politics and that's not based on an impression. It's based on relationships I've had with ministers in key departments, conversations I had them reaching out on October 8 and 9. You know, publicly things are volatile politically. Every word omitted is scrutinised. So I understand those dynamics. But in terms of their concern for the security and welfare of the community, I have no concerns about that at all. I know they're 100% with us. I have no concerns about that at all.
Speaker 2:I know they're 100% with us, vicky. Last week Alex posted a picture on social media he had received a hamper from members of the Jewish community to thank him. I'm just curious to know like what other cool free shit does Alex get sent?
Speaker 6:Once he received a very kind gift of chocolate coated strawberries. I think Okay. From, I think. Okay, from, I think, the same people, so not that much. Not that much, I mean we. I can't speak on behalf of Alex, but you know be welcoming to receive a bit more.
Speaker 2:Maybe some face wash. What was it? Was it Kiehl's, kiehl's, kiehl's?
Speaker 6:Face wash. I mean, I don't know, hair products.
Speaker 1:It'll have to go into the gift register, but hey.
Speaker 2:That's a good idea.
Speaker 5:We want nothing and we need nothing. No, I know I was joking. I know you were joking.
Speaker 2:Vicky, is there anything because the name of this show is Ashamed to admit? Is there anything that just you're ashamed to admit?
Speaker 6:like just in general, look, I think my biggest thing I mentioned earlier is I really don't like to cook. I really hate feeding the family, but every day they're hungry, everyone's constantly hungry and it just doesn't stop. I hate that and I am ashamed to admit that I don't. You know, I don't bake, I don't make fancy meals.
Speaker 2:A cup of steak.
Speaker 6:That's the extent of it.
Speaker 2:Bolognese maybe. Okay, so you're not a balabusta, and that is a source of shame, unfortunately in the Jewish community.
Speaker 6:I'm very sorry.
Speaker 1:What about you, Alex? You've been pumping up your tires for the last 40, 45 odd minutes, so is there anything that you can admit to being ashamed of I have?
Speaker 5:no shame. I'm in many ways like I'm George Costanza. I may not be stocky, short and bald, but I'm George Costanza in every other way.
Speaker 6:I feel shame about nothing it doesn't mean that he doesn't do anything that might be shameful.
Speaker 5:No, I don't think I do anything shameful.
Speaker 6:He doesn't feel the shame.
Speaker 2:You were so happy to share the fact that you do fuck all around your home.
Speaker 5:I know, but I feel no shame. That's the thing. I accept my limitations. Okay, I embrace them. Good, no, I don't feel any shame. I wish I could give you something I really do.
Speaker 2:Are you ashamed that you feel no shame?
Speaker 5:A little bit yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, you've got a meeting to get to Alex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he needs to get to Pilates His guns. Don't grow themselves, Tammy.
Speaker 1:And Vicky, no doubt you've got dinner to prepare for tonight. That you're resenting already. But yeah, thank you guys so much for your time today and just like for the generosity that you've given to Tammy Schtick, which is I like it and obviously others do too, but it's, you know, it's it's great that you came here with that spirit of rolling with us. So thank you for.
Speaker 5:It's a pleasure, it's a real great pleasure.
Speaker 1:For playing along.
Speaker 5:What you guys are doing is awesome. Yeah, absolutely. And, as we've said, you know, as you guys pointed out, the community, you know, is kind of teetering at the moment and they need respite and they need to be uplifted and what you guys do is so important and, personally, it's just a pleasure to chat with you guys. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you. And just to be clear, vicky has to go prepare dinner, restack the dishwasher that Alex bought. She has to go work on her very, very successful and busy events business. She's got sick kids at home and she just has to. She's the glue that holds everything together.
Speaker 5:It's the straw that stirs the drink. Thanks so much, mate. Great to chat to you. Take care.
Speaker 2:We'll see you soon.
Speaker 1:Thanks, guys, take care.
Speaker 2:We'll see you soon. Thanks guys, take care, dash. It's time for angry feedback to Kitsch Klezmer Music Time, and I'm a little bit nervous about this because I'm scared that.
Speaker 1:I'm going to instigate our very first on-air beef. No, bring it on. We've been looking for an opportunity to beef. I don't think people just want to listen to. You know people that agree and are totally aligned. Forever right, like it runs its course you want a bit of that tension.
Speaker 2:I don't have access to your personal email so I'm not even aware if people have been sending you angry emails or angry letters. But what I do have access to is the comment section of the Jewish Independence Instagram posts, so I went trawling through, went scrolling back in time.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And I found this comment was posted underneath a tile on the Jewish independence Instagram. The headline was the growing panic about Antisemitism Isn't a Reflection of Reality, and it was written by Jay Michelson. It was published on the 8th of April 2024. Sue had this to say what a tone deaf article. It's just TJI's way a little bit of outrage porn. Bit of outrage porn. Because you know, the rest of the media is so balanced and fair that it is important to have at least one article explaining why Jews experiencing antisemitism are not really experiencing antisemitism. And we really need to hear that anti-Zionism is not because of antisemitism, because you know what else is slapping us in the face with all this, all the bloody time. This journo is not only unoriginal but deeply uninformed about what antisemitism is and how it operates. No idea why TJI keeps publishing just pieces for balance inverted commas, eye roll, emoji, dash.
Speaker 1:Love an eye roll emoji at the end of a roasting. Thank you, Sue.
Speaker 2:Is Jay Michelson a journalist?
Speaker 1:He's a journalist, he's a rabbi, he's a meditation teacher. That article, I believe, was originally in Forward, the US-based Jewish publication.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I don't think that was a TJR original. Okay, not that that really matters ultimately. You know we republished it because we felt that his was an important voice to add into the conversation. I don't happen to agree with everything that's in that article and I think he's writing very much from a particular perspective as an American Jewish voice.
Speaker 2:Well, now that you've told me he's a meditation teacher, perhaps he had just been like on a retreat for 10 days. You know those retreats where you don't speak to anyone and you can't access any social media. So he just he gets home and he's really like zen and he's like yeah, you know what? This world's a pretty good place. Anti-semitism doesn't exist. Wrote that piece and then bang.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's what he said in the article. I think you should read it, tammy. But yeah, that's fine. I think it's disappointing if people just disengage, stop reading because they read one or two or maybe even three or whatever. However many articles they read that they seriously disagree with.
Speaker 1:Like hopefully you will be challenged, Hopefully you will be tested, Hopefully you will have to re-evaluate some of your ideas and maybe you end up keeping them, maybe you end up actually doubling down on them, but at least you've done the work. We don't want to be offending people through what we publish.
Speaker 2:I guess the goal right now is respectful dialogue. That's it, that is the goal.
Speaker 1:Civil discourse.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where we can agree with each other, sometimes with very strong difference of opinion, but do it in a way where there is a genuine desire to understand the point of view of the other and to understand where that person comes from, an ability to respect that. That person has a set of experiences and has formed these ideas based on their own life's events and experiences and a willingness to actually hear them out before making a whole lot of assumptions and ideas about who they are and what they think. But I hope we haven't lost you, sue. I hope that you're still reading TJI or perhaps even still downloading A Shame to Admit and I hope that you continue to tell us when we frustrate you or piss you off or challenge you. Don't go, because I think that would be a shame.
Speaker 2:So I feel like you have great fetch potential. I feel like you have great kvetch potential and I just think that the next time you have a comment like that within you, please channel it into a fantastic voice memo and email it to ashamed at the jewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1:Well, that is it for Season 1 of Ashamed to Admit. With Tammy Sussman and me, dash Lawrence, this has been a TGI podcast.
Speaker 2:This season finale episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with music by Donovan Jenks and Gus Goldblatt.
Speaker 1:Links to the TGI articles mentioned today and some of the theme-adjac adjacent pieces are in the show notes.
Speaker 2:If you've thoroughly enjoyed listening to this podcast, leave a positive review. Tell your friends, tell your urologist. Make a post in the infamous Jews of Sydney Facebook group.
Speaker 1:You can, as Tammy said earlier, have a Kvel or a Kvetch via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or email ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2:And you can also leave some suggestions for topics that we can cover in Season 2. As always, thank you really all of you for your support. We can't wait to spice up your ears and your lives later in the Australian winter.
Speaker 1:We'll see you again in August. Bye, Let us say I'mrael Chai Shalom and Chag Shemek.