Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #2 Penny Wong, Angry letters and palette pleasing pickles
In this week's episode of ATA, Tami reveals the tangy tagline of her great-great-grandparents' pickle factory, Palata Pickles. Is "Penny Wong good or bad for Israel"? We examine the Foreign Affairs Minister's approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict. And, in the spirit of preparing ourselves for (nasty) audience feedback, we reprise one of Tami's all-time favourite pieces of hate mail.
TJI articles discussed in this episode:
https://plus61j.net.au/featured/penny-wong-raises-alarming-trends-in-israel-as-alp-prepares-to-vote-on-palestine/
https://plus61j.net.au/editors-picks/gareth-evans-the-case-for-recognising-palestine/
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/jewish-community-turns-inward-imprisoned-between-two-wars
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/what-can-we-expect-from-penny-wongs-visit-to-israel
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Hi everyone. It's Tammy here. I'm just popping in before we start today's episode to let everyone know that we are aware of the notifications that kept popping up in episode one. Thank you to everyone, and I mean everyone who's told us how annoying that was. We're so sorry. We don't know how that happened, but you know what? I'm just going to go ahead and say it was probably me, it was probably my fault, because I'm ashamed to admit technology isn't my strong suit. I'm pretty sure that you might just get one during this week's episode. I'm working on it, you know. We're just. We're dealing with imperfections, we're embracing them, but it won't be as bad as last week. Okay, enough apologising, tammy, and on with the show. Are you ashamed to admit that you're not across all of the issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? I know I am. I'm Tammy Sussman and in this podcast series I ask the Jewish Independence Executive Director, dash Lawrence, all the ignorant questions that I, and maybe you, are too embarrassed to ask.
Speaker 2:I'm Dash Lawrence and I'm going to attempt to answer some of Tammy's questions. Sometimes I might have to bring in an expert and sometimes I might have a few of my own questions that I need some help with. But together, tammy and I are have to bring in an expert, and sometimes I might have a few of my own questions that I need some help with. But together, tammy and I are going to try and cut through the week's chewiest and dewiest topics.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 2:Welcome back everyone. Thanks for listening in again. This is episode two of our first season of A Shame to Admit. I'm Dash Lawrence from the.
Speaker 1:Jewish Independent and I'm Tammy Sussman from that Unsuccessful Date in 2009. It's also very likely that I'm your third cousin.
Speaker 2:Firstly, thank you to everyone who's taken the time to give us some really nice feedback since we published Episode 1. Thanks for the five-star ratings, the positive reviews you've been putting online and sending through to us, and the reposts of our podcast on your socials with links to the show. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:And we should thank everyone for forwarding the podcast to your family group chats. I love hearing about that. We all know that the family group chats where it's at but Dash. After listening back to episode one, it occurred to me that we didn't acknowledge all the Jews listening from other parts of Australia. We were very Sydney Melbourne focused. So we should say, from Perth to Brizzy, canberra to Alice Springs, there are proud Jewish communities everywhere. We see you and we will do our best to represent you on this podcast as well.
Speaker 2:And Tammy, don't forget Adelaide as well. There are at least half a dozen Jewish people in Adelaide, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, to those half a dozen Jews in Adelaide. We see you and we'll make sure that your voices are heard too.
Speaker 2:And a bit of a quick update as well for you, tammy. Yeah, we have rocketed to the top of Apple's number one for Jewish podcasts in Australia just in the last week, which you know I'm going to take. It's not entirely surprising. There can't be a hell of a lot of us out there, and also in Turkey, believe it or not. So big shout out to your in-laws over that side of the world for keeping our numbers really strong in Turkey.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Love to you all in Istanbul. Okay, so, dash, we have another insightful and engaging show ahead of us today. But before I tell you what I'm ashamed to admit, there's a bit of an update, because I know how invested you are, dash, and I know how invested three of our listeners are in the pickle history. I come from pickle royalty, so last week I told you that I wasn't ashamed to admit that my great-great-grandparents had a pickle factory in Marrickville in the early 1900s. Do you remember that?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I do. I was fascinated. I wanted to know more, and the historian into me wanted more detail and just a little light on the detail. Tammy, that's true, I was ashamed to be you got the narrative right. I was cooked, and then I just wanted to know more about this pickle factory, which you couldn't tell me. So what have you dug up?
Speaker 1:I didn't know the name, I didn't know where it was Anyway. So my grandmother heard the first episode and she said I remember what it was called. It was called Palata Pickles and it was on the corner of Illawarra Road and Renwick Street in Marrickville. There's a Woolies there now, but I needed some corroboration. So my friend Marina, who you might remember from our first episode she's the one who coined the term passive wear. She's also a journalist. So she did some digging around in the archives and she found some ads in the old papers promoting lakes, delicious Jewish-styled pickled cucumbers, and she sent me a few of her faves and the one that I loved the most there was this tagline they please your palate purse and friends, which is essentially what people are saying about this podcast. I think we found our bio.
Speaker 2:So, Tammy, what are you ashamed to?
Speaker 1:admit today, right, penny wong. Penny wong, she's the current minister for foreign affairs in australia and I'm ashamed to admit I've just learned that she's also the leader of the government in the Senate and a senator for South Australia. I like the idea of a queer, non-anglo person in government, but last year my friend's rogue uncle kept posting about her not being good for Israel on Facebook and I'm ashamed to admit that I don't fully understand why. I don't fully understand why. So I know that many Australian Jews were upset when Penny Wong reversed Australia's prior recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. I know that this year there were some Australian Jews who were upset that she wasn't going to go south to visit the kibbutzim and communities in Israel, the ones who were impacted the most by Hamas terrorists on October 7th. And then people were really upset when she wanted to reinstate funding for UNRWA.
Speaker 1:Sorry, there's a lot. There's a multi-layered question, and do you think that you could help me unpack all of that? You're right, tammy, it is a big one. There's a multi-layered question, and do you think that you could help me unpack all of that?
Speaker 2:You're right, Tammy, it is a big one. Let's have a go at unpacking it now. So, Tammy, I think we need to go back to October 2022, when the freshly minted foreign affairs minister, Penny Wong, announced that the Albanese government had reaffirmed Australia's previous and longstanding position that Jerusalem was a final status issue that should be resolved as a part of any peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian people. And when Minister Wong made that announcement, she effectively reversed the Morrison government's recognition of West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Deeply disappointing an own goal. Counterproductive. Those are all the things that Jewish communal leadership at the time had to say about the minister's announcement. To say that they were infuriated with her and her government is probably putting up mildly. Now, Minister Wong preempted a lot of this and this is what she had to say at the time of the announcement to the Jewish community in relation to this decision.
Speaker 3:I would say I realise this is an issue of great interest to some parts of the Australian community and I would say this we are committed to international efforts in the responsible progress, responsible pursuit of progress towards a just and enduring two-state solution. I also wish to say to the members of the Jewish community Australia will always be a steadfast friend of Israel. We were amongst the first countries to formally recognise Israel under Labor Prime Minister Ben Chifley, and we remain. We will not waver in our support of both Israel and the Jewish community in Australia. We are equally unwavering in our support of the Palestinian people, including in the provision of humanitarian support, including in the provision of humanitarian support.
Speaker 2:So that was October 2022. Just over a year later, in August 2023, so a couple of months before the 7th of October, minister Wong announced in Parliament that Australia would be returning to the term Occupied. Now that's a small, but a very significant change in the language from the Australian government. That same month, she also warned of alarming trends in Israel's democracy. She described the acceleration of Israeli settlements as an obstacle to peace in the region and that the Australian government was raising these concerns, particularly about the settlement growth in West Bank, with the Israeli government. And in July, just a few weeks prior to that announcement in Parliament, minister Wong, together with the Foreign Affairs Minister of the UK and Canada, released a statement raising deep concerns about settlement growth and the loss of Palestinian lives in the West Bank.
Speaker 1:So in October 2022, when Minister Wong said that Jerusalem was a final status issue that should be resolved, Was that a way of saying that Australia no longer recognises Jerusalem as the Jewish capital, like the same way that there was outrage in the United States when Donald Trump said that he was going to recognise Jerusalem as the Jewish capital?
Speaker 2:So the Oslo Accords of 1993 set out a number of final status issues that need to be addressed if there's to be any future peace between Israel and the Palestinian people, and one of those questions is Jerusalem. So the Accords make it clear that both sides need to come to a resolution about the status of Jerusalem, and it's not for Israel to take Jerusalem as its capital without a clear negotiated position with the Palestinians. So because of that crucial aspect of the Oslo Accords, any decision by Israel and any other government to position Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is in effect going against the Oslo Accords.
Speaker 1:So when Morrison's government recognised West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, were they going against those Oslo Accords?
Speaker 2:Going against the Oslo Accords and going against where most international countries view. There's really only a handful of countries, less than a dozen, that recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. So it put Australia alongside a small number of countries that viewed Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Speaker 1:So then, in August 2023, Minister Wong announces in parliament that Australia would be returning to the term occupied Palestinian territories, and she criticizes the alarming trends in Israel. And then what happened?
Speaker 2:Well, what happened next was the 7th of October and everyone, quite rightly, was completely stunned by the events of that day. This is how Penny Wong responded in the days after that attack in the days after that attack.
Speaker 3:Australia unequivocally condemns the attack on Israel by Hamas. We unequivocally condemn the indiscriminate rocket fire, the targeting of civilians and the taking of hostages, a particularly distressing and egregious act by Hamas. These are abhorrent acts and I again reiterate our call for all hostages to be released. I have spoken over the weekend to the Foreign Minister of Israel, Foreign Minister Cohen. I expressed Australia's support for Israel, our solidarity and our support for Israel's right to defend itself. I want to say this time that Australia's thoughts are with those lost, those injured, those taken hostage.
Speaker 2:So, tammy, as you can hear there, penny Wong's defence of Israel was unequivocal at the time.
Speaker 2:She condemned Hamas, she condemned the targeting of civilians, she condemned the taking of hostages and she made it clear that she had contacted Israel's foreign affairs minister to express Australia's support and solidarity with Israel.
Speaker 2:But as the war with Hamas progressed, penny Wong's language was changing subtly. She was talking much less about Israel's right to defend itself and much more about the humanitarian situation that was unfolding in Gaza and particularly about Israel's obligations under international law. By the time we came to the end of the year, december just gone, the talk was all about the need for safe, unimpeded and sustained humanitarian access into Gaza and safe passage for civilians, and Australia, by that stage, did ultimately support a vote in the UN calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire, effectively a pause in Israel's campaign in Gaza. I think it's important to note that throughout all of this, penny Wong was continuing to call for the release of the hostages, of the hostages, and in February she did make a visit to Israel, her first visit to Israel since the 7th of October attacks. But for some, particularly in the Jewish community, that was seen as being too late. And, as you said Tammy, there were also others that were particularly critical of her for not visiting the site of some of those massacres as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, Because the way that her socials represented it, I assumed that she did go down south. So did just the families of the victims come and see her.
Speaker 2:She had a chance to meet with some of the families of the victims in other parts of the country. Chance to meet with some of the families of the victims in other parts of the country, but she didn't visit the site of the massacres in the Kibbutzim or at the Nova Festival.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I know that another big sticking point with the Jewish community in Australia has been the fact that Minister Wong reinstated funding for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, otherwise known as UNRWA. In January, the Australian government paused $6 million in funding. I remember reading, because there were serious allegations made about UNRWA's staff allegedly being involved in the Hamas terrorist attacks of 7th of October. So how was that decision made?
Speaker 2:So you're right. Australia was one of several countries to pause funding when those allegations came to light. But just last month, minister Wong, together with a number of other countries, including Canada and Sweden and the entire European Union, in fact announced that funding would return to UNRWA. At the time, the minister said that the Australian government would work with UNRWA in an ongoing basis to quote ensure its integrity and neutrality beyond reproach. That announcement really angered Jewish community leaders yet again, who said that funding shouldn't have been going to UNRWA anyway and in light of the allegations that had been made the allegations that have been made it just was not the right place to be sending funding.
Speaker 2:And Minister Wong had to say that it was really only UNRWA that had the infrastructure to receive and distribute aid on the scale needed in Gaza. And obviously, as we've seen in recent months, the humanitarian situation there has reached a really critical point, with a large percentage of the population now hungry, in dire need of medical support and in need of food. So what Minister Wong had to say was that the aid could only reach the civilian population if Israel let it into Gaza, and she implored Israel to allow this to happen. Now that particular comment also angered Jewish community leaders in Australia who said that Israel has been doing that all along, and they really pushed back and denied that there's been any attempt by Israel to not let this aid through. But that's not how many in the international community see it, and this is where again some of these tensions between Minister Wong, israel and the Jewish community start to surface again.
Speaker 1:So is it fair to say that it's not just the Jewish community leaders who've been frustrated or disappointed in Minister Wong. She's received some criticism from pro-Palestinian activists as well. So what's that about?
Speaker 2:Exactly, tammy. I think that's really important to recognise in all of this, that Penny Wong and the Albanese government are walking a tightrope, and it's a tightrope that looks like it's going to snap at any moment. On the one hand, minister Wong and the Albanese government have been trying to keep the faith with Israel and maintain what is a longstanding support for Israel the state of Israel but on the other hand, there is a growing tide of support and sympathy for the Palestinian position and you've got pro-Palestinian activists and supporters increasing in volume and they're pushing a lot of criticism and a lot of pressure in the direction of Minister Wong and the Albanese government, and that pressure is also coming up within Labour's ranks.
Speaker 2:So you've got Muslim parliamentarians in Anne Ali, senator Fatima Payman, and you've also got Ed Husik as well, not to mention Minister Tony Burke, who represents one of the largest Muslim electorates in the country.
Speaker 2:All of those members of parliament have been breaking ranks and really looking for more to be done and more to be said and for Minister Wong to be taking a stronger position with regard to Israel.
Speaker 2:Now, the other thing to add is that Penny Wong has been working really hard prior to all of this to rebuild Australia's reputation and standing in Asia, particularly in Southeast Asia, including in the Muslim-majority countries Indonesia and Malaysia. Obviously, those are two countries that do not have relations, or very good relations, with Israel, and they are two countries that have naturally been very critical of Israel's campaign in Gaza, and both of these countries would not be happy to see Australia, simply from their perspective, acquiesce to Israel's handling of the war, and they would expect Australia, as a middle power, to really push Israel for more restraint, for more humanitarian aid. So it doesn't really matter which way you look at it, minister Wong and the Albanese government are getting a lot of pressure from multiple sides internally, externally. How do you appease those sides? I don't know, and I certainly don't envy Penny Wong and her advisors right now.
Speaker 1:Just excuse me for a minute while I just Google Tony Burke, because I'm ashamed to admit that I've forgotten what position. He's the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations of Australia. Fantastic, all right. So Dash is my family friend's rogue uncle right when he says that Wong is bad for Israel.
Speaker 2:I've heard that time and time again. You also hear it in relation to President Joe Biden as well. Yeah, I hear it all the time this kind of measure somehow that a leader or someone in government is seen as being either good for Israel or bad for Israel?
Speaker 1:Or good for the Jews, bad for the Jews.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would say that this is not a binary choice. What is, on the face of it, good for Israel actually might not be good for Israel's long-term interests as a stable, democratic, liberal state in a sea of what is otherwise dictatorships and theocracies. So being good for Israel in the short term may not necessarily be good for Israel forever.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, thanks, dash, for unpacking that. That was really insightful and enlightening. Now I feel inspired to go back to the Jewish Independence website because I know that there are a few articles from last year and the year before addressing Penny Wong and the feelings around Minister Wong. I also wanted to add that Michael Vizonte published an article a few days ago on the website which I really, really enjoyed.
Speaker 1:It's called the Jewish Community Turns Inward in Prison Between Two Wars, and I know it's not strictly about Minister Wong, but I think that the theme that runs through the piece, which is adjacent to this topic, is, I guess, this inner conflict that the Jewish community has when these allegations have been made against UNRWA, but there's also the prospect or even the reality of famine in North Gaza. So, as Michael says, any decent-minded person, no matter how staunch their support of Israel is, would want that to come to an end. So everyone listening can check that out. Hey, dash, I know that there are certain people in our community who read certain Jewish publications just for the angry letters. So question does the Jewish independent ever get any angry letters?
Speaker 2:Oh no, I don't think I've ever seen a single hate-filled email or DM.
Speaker 3:That's not true, by the way.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, occasionally we might upset a few people in the Jewish community here in Australia and we might get the occasional, always very civil, always very respectful, but pointed letter or two.
Speaker 2:Fortunately, I've never copped anything. Personally, I think I'd be far too brittle to be able to handle that level of anger. But yeah, from time to time we might get something. I can think of one example in recent weeks among the stories we've published which has generated quite a bit of feedback and not all of it positive and that is our story looking at Jewish anti-Zionists in Australia. This is a piece that Michael Vizante wrote and it really took a look at who are the main anti-Zionist Jewish activists, and some of those people got in touch with us to express their frustration at the article. Some of them got in touch with us to tell us what they thought of the piece. Maybe that's something we can unpack at a later episode.
Speaker 1:I'd love to do that and I don't think that will put us at risk of being doxed at all. Dash, I'm glad that you mentioned that you'd be a bit brittle if you received any negative feedback because, as I mentioned in last week's episode, I do live in constant fear of being trolled or cancelled. It is one of the reasons why I stopped doing stand-up. But now that I'm defrosting, now that I'm a defrosting comedian, and now that we're doing this podcast, chances are that someone out there won't agree with what we have to say. So I thought we should preemptively thicken our skin in a new segment. I thought that in this segment we could have a practice run of receiving negative feedback. It's like exposure therapy, if you like.
Speaker 2:Tammy, this sounds like the part where you want me to read the angry letter that someone sent you all those years ago to the sounds of kitsch, klezmer music. Is that what you're getting at?
Speaker 1:That's totally what I want you to do. I want you to know that I'm doing this not to give the trolls more airtime, but to flip the script. I want to reclaim my dignity, so Dash, will you do me the honor of reading a comment posted to a satirical? Cannot stress that enough. It was a satirical article that I wrote in 2013 and it still haunts me 11 years later.
Speaker 2:So Gil writes Tammy. This post has sickened me more than most things Jewish I have read in a long time. I have no idea of your Jewish upbringing, but the superficial value system that you, as a young lady, so happily bring to the fore, your lack of knowledge or respect of your heritage, is to me just appalling. I wish your future husband, whoever he may be, the very best of luck.
Speaker 1:Gil. It was the as a young lady which was the kicker for me. Gil still hasn't accepted my invitation to Shabbos. Gil, if you're listening, come for Shabbos.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we've set the bar pretty high with that one. Give us your very best attempts at Gil. We welcome them one and all. Our email again is ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's almost all we have time for in today's episode, but before we go Dash, tell me what Jewish content you're consuming at the moment or have consumed.
Speaker 2:I actually should have mentioned this one last week, because I listen to this pretty much every week, this pretty much every week, although I think there was a brief hiatus there in the lead into the rebrand launch of the Jewish Independent. I absolutely love Unholy Two Jews on the News. Have you heard that one, tammy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you recommended it to me when we were in production meetings last year. Yeah, it's very good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So Yonit Levy of Israel's Channel 12 News is one half of two Jews on the news. The other is Jonathan Friedland of the Guardian, and if any of you are familiar with Jonathan Friedland you'll know just how erudite he is. Yonit Levy was new to me but she's certainly a very sharp, witty counterpart to Jonathan Friedland and, as the name suggests, each week those two hosts talk through the news with a very strong Jewish focus and obviously an Israeli focus and, since the 7th of October, their dissection of the conflict and of the implications not just for Israelis but for Jewish diaspora. I've really valued their insights and I don't necessarily always agree with what either of them have to say, but I'm always compelled by the different perspectives that they bring and, just like any good duo combo in a podcast, I think they're best when there's a little bit of friction and perhaps a little bit of tension, and that comes up most episodes. But they also have some fun along the way as well. So highly recommend Unholy.
Speaker 1:Do you think this podcast needs more friction? Do you think we need to fight more? Hey, we've just started. I was going to say Give us time.
Speaker 2:I was going to say We'll get there.
Speaker 3:Look they're fantastic.
Speaker 1:Okay, before we get complaints about this segment going on for too long, my recommendation this week is a book that I consumed back in 2023, which I enjoyed. It's called One Day we're All Going to Die by Elise Esther Hurst, as the next Sally Rooney, and she co-wrote the contemporary adaptation of Yentl, which enjoyed two sellout seasons at the Malthouse Theatre in Melbourne. I was lucky enough to see it. It needs to come to Sydney, so if you're a producer in Sydney, get onto that.
Speaker 2:Well, that's it, tammy, for the second instalment of A Shame to Admit, with Tammy Sussman and me, dash Lawrence. This is a TGI podcast. Today's episode was mixed and edited by Nick King.
Speaker 1:Special thanks to Yuri Wint and Sharon Berger at TGI HQ in Sydney for letting me take over their space to record this, and thank you to God for giving humans many openings and cavities.
Speaker 2:Links to the articles that Tammy's mentioned today are in our show notes. If you like the podcast, please do leave us that five-star review so that other listeners can find us.
Speaker 1:Please save your trolling for our DMs.
Speaker 2:But don't forget our email. You can contact us ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau or use the form on the Jewish Independent website to leave a comment, make suggestions for topics that we can cover in future episodes. And while you're there on the website, why not subscribe to the Jewish Independence bi-weekly publication? It's free. It lands in your inbox every Tuesday and Thursday.
Speaker 1:As always, thanks for your support and see you next week. Can you hear that?
Speaker 2:Yep, I got that.
Speaker 1:Loud and clear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what have you brought in this week?
Speaker 1:It's actually capsicum dipped in Pilpel hummus. It's actually capsicum dipped in Pilpel hummus. So Pilpel is my preferred brand of hummus because it doesn't have garlic in it. So you know it's good for the kishkas. And no, they haven't been approached yet to be sponsors of the show, but I think they'd be, you know, aligned. So if anyone out there has an in, let us know.