Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #5 Ultra Orthodox army exemptions, bicycle curses and unpunctuated feedback
In this week’s episode, Tami and Dash ask TJI’s Jerusalem Correspondent Ittay Flescher all the questions you’re embarrassed to ask about the Ultra-Orthodox exemption from the IDF, which could end in the coming months. Plus Jewish Anzacs, a family curse and we receive unpunctuated feedback from a ‘passionate’ listener of the show.
TJI articles discussed in this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/haredims-refusal-to-fight-a-moral-stain
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/election-2024-looks-likely-but-dont-bet-against-bibi
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/ittay-flescher-hidden-anzac-grave-sparks-hunt-in-israel
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
(You can also email voice memos here).
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Are you ashamed to admit that you're not across all of the issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? I'm Tammy Sussman and in this podcast series I ask the Jewish Independence Executive Director, dash Lawrence, all the ignorant questions that I, and maybe you, are too embarrassed to ask.
Speaker 2:I'm Dash Lawrence and I'm going to attempt to answer most of Tammy's questions in the time that it takes your family to fight about who sits where at the Seder table, Because, you know, Boobie has brogas with Ruthie.
Speaker 1:Sometimes Dash might have to bring in an expert and sometimes he might have a few questions of his own.
Speaker 2:But together, Tammy and I are going to try and cut through the week's chewiest and jewiest topics.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us. Episode five, Season 1 of A Shame to Admit. I can't believe that we are already halfway into this, our maiden season. I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1:And I'm the owner of the car that you dented in the narrow streets of North Bondi before driving off. Tammy Sussman, have you been to North Bondi in Sydney Dash?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have on a few occasions.
Speaker 1:Those streets. They should be one-way streets. That's all I'm saying. If you park there, expect to get your mirrors smashed off and don't expect anyone to leave a note. Okay, we're recording on April 24th it's the third day of Passover. Lots of secular Jews are already telling me that they're ashamed to admit that Vegemite is their preferred spread for matzah. So this episode will be released on the last day of Passover. So to everyone listening who keeps Passover, enjoy your cinnamon babka this evening and, with any luck, that babka will have a hair in it so you can return it to the shop or the bakery and you can go up to the server and you can say excuse me, you sold us a hair with a cake around it. Do you know what that's referenced to? No, that's a Seinfeld reference there.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, right.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're off to a great start today, dash.
Speaker 2:Well, we've got something that's going to uplift the spirits in a moment. Tammy, before we get to your Ashamed to Admit questions for this week which you have presented to me and to TJR's Jerusalem correspondent Itai Flesher, I believe we have potentially the very last of your family history pickle juice story to squirt out all over me and the audience.
Speaker 1:Okay. So for those of you who are only tuning in for the first time today, here's what you need to know.
Speaker 2:Oh, you need to go back to episode one.
Speaker 1:You do. You need to go back to episode one, okay, but brief recap. In episode one I said I was proud to be a descendant of pickle factory owners based in Marrickville in Sydney in the early 1900s. So, so, so proud. Dash said oh really, what was the name of this factory? And I said I have no idea, which I think is a very Jewish, millennial thing. Like the Gen Xs and the Boomers, they know all the details and, like the millennials, are just like yeah, my grandparents had this deli, it was amazing, but have no idea about the name. Okay, dash was disappointed in me so I went back and I called my friend Marina, who's a journalist. She did some digging around. She found the name of the pickle factory which I shared in episode two. The name is Palata Pickles and it was run by Leon Lake, my great great grandfather. Great, great, great, great, great grandfather. Okay, one of those like he's really, he's old, he's dead now, but you know what? I great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather.
Speaker 2:Okay, one of those Like he's really, he's old, he's dead now, but you know what I?
Speaker 1:mean, okay, he was really great. Whatever he was, he was really great.
Speaker 2:In episode three, dash, you revealed that they'd been issued a five pound fine, for I don't recall the exact charge before them, but it was some violation of local council health and safety laws with regard to their onions that were putrid and stinking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. Apparently they hadn't kept their premises clean or whatever, because they were rotting onions in their backyard. Rotting onions, whatevs.
Speaker 2:That had sweated. That's right. I didn't realise that onions sweat until I read about the Lake family.
Speaker 1:The official term is schvitz, okay, and the fact that it was not reported that way is anti-Semitic, okay. Then last week we just had such a fleshy show that I didn't have time to reveal this next little part of the story. And I should say also that this little bit, this pickle bit, we did not plan this. I just thought I'd make a reference to it in our very first episode and then we'd move on. I thought these episodes were going to be 30 minutes long. They've since become 40 minutes long because of this shtick. I really want to wrap it up, but then Marina keeps finding these like amazing little tidbits, so I'm going to send you an image for you to read. I'm going to text it to you, but I just turned my phone off, building up the suspense yet again.
Speaker 2:Is it weird that I said that we're going to squirt pickle juice over?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's great. I think a podcast without squirting is boring. Okay, can you please read this?
Speaker 2:Yet another news report I see before me. So the headline is stole a bicycle, oh boy. Oh Leon, it's not Leon. No, it's not Leon, it's not Leon.
Speaker 1:No, it's not Leon, it's someone else.
Speaker 2:Keep reading Someone else in the family. At the police court today, edward Lakofsky was charged with the larceny of a bicycle valued at 10 pounds. The machine was taken from a shed at the central mine where it had been left by a miner with other bicycles. At the conclusion of the hearing, the police informed the bench that complaints were made every day of bicycles being stolen. A fine of five pounds with costs or two months imprisonment was imposed. I'm assuming this is from the Barrier Minor Truth. I think it's called.
Speaker 1:It's from. Well, does it say it there?
Speaker 2:No, but I know this is the newspaper in Broken Hill. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is Okay. So here's some more information that you need to know. How are you all over the newspapers in Broken Hill?
Speaker 2:I lived in Broken Hill. It was my first journalism gig.
Speaker 1:I had no idea. This is really spooky.
Speaker 2:And I live just around the corner from the synagogue.
Speaker 1:Okay, which I've been to. We'll have to talk about this in another episode. Okay, so before they lived in Marrickville, the lakes were in Broken Hill. Yes, there were Jews in Broken Hill, and before they were lakes they were Lakofskis.
Speaker 2:Quite a few Jews in Broken Hill, by the way. Sorry, Tammy, I just wanted to add a little bit more historical detail there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, so I've heard. Okay, so that article was published in 1911, and Edward Lakofski may or may not have stolen a bicycle worth £7.10. Did I have to look up that little full stop forward slash currency? Yes, I did. I assume you knew what that was because you're a historian, Anyway. So I looked up this guy, Edward, to see if I was related to him.
Speaker 1:It's unclear, but I think so because he had the same journey to Australia, perth, kalgoorlie, broken Hill. Anyway, I look him up and then I see that he's actually he was one of the Jewish Anzacs, which was like really spooky, because Anzac Day is tomorrow, the day after we're recording. So I just thought that was worth mentioning, because I know that on the Jewish Independence website there's a few articles about Jewish Anzacs, including one that I read which was beautiful. It was an extract from Mark Dappen's book Jewish Anzacs, which tells the stories of Jewish soldiers who served and died at Gallipoli.
Speaker 2:I'm still puzzled. Do we know yet the connection between Edward and Leon?
Speaker 1:No, I'm pretty sure that they were related. Yeah, so he's not part of the Pickle Empire, but he's a relative.
Speaker 2:Okay, you've got me intrigued. Now I'm going to go and do a bit of my own sleuthing and find out who Edward was.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you, because I'm still waiting on a family tree, but like they'd have to be related, they have the same journey over the same surname. Also, I've never been able to ride a bicycle, so I think it was like cosmically punishment, like got. You know, it skipped a few generations and then it came to me. So I'm one of those people that you know it skipped a few generations and then it came to me. So I'm one of those people that you know they say once you ride a bicycle, you never forget. I forget, dash your love. You think that this is a bit, but it's not I don't know, have you?
Speaker 2:have you seen the coen brothers film?
Speaker 2:a serious man yes, I have and that wonderful scene at the start where I mean, we don't know that it ends up being the protagonist's relatives, but it's somewhat alluded to that the main character who ends up having terrible bad luck befallen on him, that he's somehow been cursed by the actions of his ancestors in the shtetls of the 19th century Eastern Europe Okay, in the shtetls of the 19th century Eastern Europe and a de Buc appears and casts a spell, or casts some bad luck onto this character. And so, as the viewer, you're left to wonder whether there's been this curse that's run through the generations. And so now I'm thinking did a de book appear in the streets of Broken Hill and chase down Edward and, by virtue of his criminal activity stealing the bicycle lead you to be unable to ride a bicycle, which, incidentally, is amazing I didn't realise you were incapable of-.
Speaker 1:Let me clarify. I'm capable for like a few minutes, and then I forget to the point where I even went to a course for adults to learn how to like be safer on a bicycle. City of Sydney funded that. Thank you so much, City of Sydney. Potential sponsors of this podcast. I went to the course and I nailed it and then I got overconfident and then I had a really bad fall at the course. I haven't gotten on a bicycle since. Anyway, Dash, it's clear that what needs to happen is that the Jewish Independent needs to send you and me to Broken Hill for a special me to Broken Hill for a special yeah.
Speaker 1:We can like, bring a medium with us and we can maybe, yeah, do something about this spell Wake aboard. Yeah, I promised you that this episode would be 30 minutes this week and the way we're going, that's not going to happen.
Speaker 2:So Okay, Tammy. Well, as promised, I will go away, do some more sleuthing and see what I can find out about your late criminal relative, Edward Lukowski.
Speaker 1:Thanks, dash, and I'll go off and talk to the executive director of the Jewish Independent to see if there's any funds that can go towards this trip. Maybe we can be flown business class. You just never know your luck.
Speaker 2:I don't think they have business class on the regional express flight from Sydney to Broken Hill.
Speaker 1:Let's move on.
Speaker 2:So in recent weeks, with Iran's bombardment on Israel and Pesach being on the horizon, I am ashamed to admit that what I'm about to say slipped under my radar, but maybe it also slipped under your radar as well. Now you may be aware that only a small number of ultra-Orthodox Israelis enlist in Israel's defence force and its reserves, preferring instead to devote their lives to Torah study, their families and their communities. Only around 10% of Israel's Haredi population volunteer for the standards for years of military service. That's just 1,200 ultra-Orthodox volunteers a year a tiny number compared to what is estimated to be 170,000 active soldiers and nearly half a million reservists in Israel. That military exemption has been in place since 1948. And it's a fact that in recent years has been the subject of much criticism by other Israelis who resent having to shoulder the security burden.
Speaker 2:But at the end of March, Israel's Supreme Court handed down a ruling that could see a funding freeze for ultra-Orthodox or Haredi educational institutions whose students are eligible for conscription. If that funding freeze were to occur, it could end the 76-year military exemption and have enormous ramifications for Israel's ultra-Orthodox population. One of Israel's two chief rabbis, yitzhak Yosef, recently said that if they force us to go to the army, we will go abroad. So last week, when we spoke with TJI's Jerusalem correspondent, ittai Flesher, we asked him to explain the ruling. Ittai was once a teacher at Melbourne's Adas Israel School and, as you'll soon discover, he's a secular Jew with a genuine empathy and respect for Israel's Haredi population.
Speaker 1:Here's our chat with Ittai. So, ittai, I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't actually realise that there was a special status for the ultra-Orthodox, the Haredim. That has apparently endured as long as the state of Israel has, until Dash told me, like last week. So can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so when the state of Israel was formed, there was what's called the status of pro agreement that David Bingray, on the first prime minister, made with the leadership of the Haredi community at the time, the Chazonish and many other people that basically said that students who study new yeshiva so a place where you learn Torah full-time don't have to serve in the army. Now that exemption initially was given to 400 men and there was an understanding, at least by Ben-Gurion, that that is a very, very small community and he also thought that Haredim would cease to exist with the, you know, secular nature of the modern state of Israel. And so for him, you know, allowing 400 people not to serve in the army wasn't a big deal, except, of course, there are not just 400 Haredim in Israel today, there are one in 10 Israelis are Haredi.
Speaker 1:Hold on Ittai. I know that for many listeners Haredim is just like 50 shades of black. Is it an umbrella term or is it like a different branch of ultra-Orthodox Judaism?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so ultra-Orthodox in Hebrew means Haredi. The word Haredi actually comes from the word Hared, or to fear God or to tremble, meaning that you're someone that is in awe before the creator of the world. Within Israel, I'd say there's three different types of Haredim. There's what's called Mizrachim, so Jews that come from mainly Muslim countries and they mostly vote for the Shas political party. There's Hasidim and that's various different groups that include Vizhnitz and Tol, Dotharon, Slonim and Chabad and Vizhnitz and Belz and Gor, and they are all followers of a rabbi called the Baal Shem Tov. And then there's Litvak or Lithuanian Jews. Their main leader in Israel was was Rabbi Chaim Kaniewski. He died two years ago, but his funeral had over a million people attended and so he was very much the leader of that.
Speaker 3:In between those different groups there are different attitudes towards the army. So you know, 10% of the Haredim do actually serve in the army and they tend to be more from the Mizrahi Haredi families do that. There's even a unit in the army called Netzach Yehuda, which is a specific unit for Haredi Jews. Some of those Haredim have smartphones, most of them don't. Some of them do secular education, most of them don't. Some of them do secular education. Most of them don't.
Speaker 3:Some of them, you know, have more gender equality. Some of them have none. So, yeah, I think you know, whenever you're talking about a million people, it's hard to you know categorise all of them the same. I think the things they have in common are obviously an Orthodox Jewish belief and practice, but within them there are many, many differences, but Haredi is often used as an umbrella term for all of those differences. But, yeah, there's more than 50 shades of black. There's probably a thousand shades of black and it's important to even though when we talk on this podcast, I'll talk about them as a collective it's important to understand there's a lot of differences between them.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you, so continue.
Speaker 2:Well, the question I was going to ask Isai was about the significance of this ruling, because it has been, let's be frank, something that no previous government would have dared touch this longstanding exemption from military service.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the government didn't want to touch it. There's been court rulings for the last sort of 10 years already basically telling the government all citizens of Israel have to be treated equally and that means including the army service or national service. And they've thrown it back to the government many times and say you have to find a way to make sure there's equality regarding the issue of army service. And then on the 1st of March there was a deadline I'm sure obviously well past the 1st of March now, but that deadline said that if the Haredim do not go to the army then they issue. What the places where they learn Torah have to can't get funded by the government anymore. What the places where they learn Torah have to can't get funded by the government anymore. And a lot of people that learn Torah full time you know what they live off partly is the stipends that they get for the learning Torah, and so that created a lot of protests. Sorry that quarrelling was the 1st of April, not the 1st of March. And then the government's been given now like a month of extension to come up with some sort of solution to draft the Haredim. The Haredim are basically saying that they are not going to be drafted. There are some small numbers of Haredim that maybe, in light of this issue, will be drafted. We're talking about a few hundred or thousand people, not the masses, because for the Haredim, I think serving in the army is not just, it's not about protection. I mean, they want Israel to be protected, they want Israel to be safe. They just believe that there's another way to keep Israel safe, which is through prayer and Torah study, and they feel like and I'm not saying this as a cop-out, like they genuinely believe this that the Torah study and prayer is what protects Israel, and they also feel it's what protected Israel from the attack from the Islamic regime as well, on April 14th, and they believe they are no less important than the Iron Dome, you know, in protecting Israel at this time. I think many secular Israelis find that argument infuriating, because nothing happens to people that you know study in yeshiva and a lot of bad things happen to soldiers that go to war. They get killed, they get injured, andhiva, and a lot of bad things happen to soldiers that go to war. They get killed, they get injured, and so there's there's a sense of the risk that you take, for studying Torah is not the same as the risk that you take for putting on a uniform, and that's unfair, that only one part of the population has to carry that burden for for the other part. So you know, I understand the views of both sides there.
Speaker 3:I just want to say something else about the 7th of October. I don't know how many people know that 7th of October touched every segment of Israeli society except Haredim. So there were no Haredim kidnapped on October 7th, because Haredim don't go to the Nova dance party or don't live in the kibbutzim around in Gaza. And there was also no Haredim killed October 7th. And since the war has been happening where there's been, you know, over 600 soldiers have died there's also no Haredim there.
Speaker 3:So whilst the Haredim feel the pain of this war and pray for Israel's success and all that thing, the war doesn't directly affect their community and they're the only community that's not affected. Bedouins have been killed, arabs have been killed, religious Zionists have been killed. Secular Jews have been killed. Haredim are the only ones at the moment that haven't been touched by October 7th. You know in a personal way. You know, when I go to the Free the Hostages rallies, I've never seen Haredim there. Now, freeing the hostages is a Haredi value. You know, pidyon Shulim is like a super important thing but like so it hasn't touched them in a way that it's touched everyone else. But there has been a lot of ultra-Orthodox Jews who have been volunteering in different ways to help soldiers packing them goods, sending religious items to the battlefield. Soldiers that are religious, obviously prayer, torah, study, giving charity, all the things that Haredim do. So they do support the war, they do want Israel to defeat Hamas. All of those things are very clear, but not to the extent that they want to serve in the army.
Speaker 2:Okay, you've lived in Israel for six years now.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In that time and given just how catastrophic the events of the 7th of October were and just how, in some ways, it feels more existential than ever before that people are just saying you have to get out there and fight and be on call and not exempt from the same service that the rest of the secular population, that the rest of the Israeli population, has to commit to.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I'll say, just for some historic context, from the start of 2023,. You know, israel had this whole national civil dispute over the judicial overhaul, over whether the court should be reformed to give more power to the elected government in selecting judges and less power to the court, which was seen as sort of a secular liberal Bastion for overruling the government. But that really was not never about the court. It was. It was a war between the secular and religious. It was like so, because I went to the rallies on both sides like it was so clear that everyone that wanted to protect the court was a liberal and everyone that wanted to give more power to the government was an orthodox or religious or haradi jew. And within that dispute over the court, obviously came up the issue of the army. And then that whole dispute, you know, ended on October 7th, where everyone put all those differences aside and we have to fight a war.
Speaker 3:Now, six months into the war, I feel like we're back on October 6th, you know, in terms of that dispute is very much on people's minds again and I think a lot of people realize this war is going to go on for a long time and something that happened, I don't know if you're aware of this. About two months ago, the government changed the law of Miluim. Miluim is reserve service, so at the moment, every Israeli who served in the army has to do 30 days of Miluim, and they've changed it now to 45 days of Miluim, so you have to do an extra 15 days of reserve service a year, because Israel needs more soldiers now during the war, and there's a lot more units that have been fighting that maybe need to be rotated, the soldiers need to rest and etc. And there's also been an extension of the time service. There's been various units brought in that haven't been in combat before, and Israel needs more soldiers and this war, for better or for worse, is not going to end anytime soon, and so someone has to fight it, and so a lot of secular israelis are like, if this war is going to go on for a lot more time and it's going to need a lot more soldiers, then it's not fair that there's one segment of the population that is exempt from that and that causes immense anger among secular israelis, almost to the level of the anger that people feel towards hamas and uh, for october 7th, like some secular Israelis feel that towards Haredi Jews and I see it all the time when I go to you know demonstrations or say, you know the way people speak about Haredim and they they almost like curse the fact that they have a lot of children, or they curse the fact that they study Torah, or there's you, you know, there's a very, very deep level of animosity which I find again as a person that believes in peace and unity, very troubling.
Speaker 3:But I can see that. Let's just say, if we didn't have a war with the Palestinians, it wouldn't surprise me if we had, you know, a civil war, not a violent civil war, but a very intense civil war about the identity and character of this state that's sort of been on a low flame for 76 years but is just kind of waiting to explode. And then I think issues like this of more people being drafted into the army for longer but only one part of the population having to do that is, you know, a lot of people feel that's immensely unfair.
Speaker 1:So, itay, if I'm following you and just circling back to how we started this conversation. So the State of Israel was created. There was an exemption on ultra-Orthodox Jews and at that time there was only 400. Now one in ten people identify as Haredi or are Haredi, and you said that previous governments, like no one, wanted to touch the idea of making it compulsory for the Haredi Israelis to be drafted. Why is that? Why did no one want to touch them? If the majority of people aren't Haredi? In my mind, wouldn't the government be more worried about the larger percent of the population protesting, rather than this one in 10? Why have they been so scared to touch it?
Speaker 3:So they haven't been scared to touch it. They've touched it in many ways. There's been lots of laws made about Haredim and there's been lots of attempts to change this already from the 1990s onwards. The issue in Israel is to do with coalition politics. So in Israel, unlike in Australia, we have two large political parties in Labor and Liberal, and one of them basically governs on its own right.
Speaker 3:In the lower house In Israel, all governments no parties ever won 61 seats. So all governments always are formed of coalitions and in many of those coalitions there are ultra-Orthodox parties and so they will say whether they're with the right or with the left I mean, the right has been in power for a long time now they'll say we won't vote for x, y legislation that you want to pass if you draft us into the army. So I think a reason why a lot of governments haven't dealt with that issue is because they've had Haredi parties in the coalition and they've made those, those demands to to do that, and sometimes they've even done that from the opposition, like the last government with Naftali Bennett. It was a very short government, lasted sort of just over a year, but they didn't have any Haredi party so they could have legislated that, but they also didn't why, so what I'm saying is that there's been opportunities to do this, um, that haven't happened for various reasons.
Speaker 3:I don't want to give like a whole history lecture about Israeli politics, but it's a really it's a really really hard issue, and I don't know if it can be solved by legislation though, because there's something you can legislate to make someone pay more tax and people pay more tax. You can legislate regulations on water don't know water, electricity, roads, like they're things governments do. Legislating to serve in an army that you don't want to is, I mean, you can make that law, but if the people aren't going to follow the law, then the legislation is not going to be effective and it has to be implemented, and so there is now so much opposition from bulk again, 90 percent of harem don't to serve that I don't know that legislation is necessarily a fix for this problem.
Speaker 1:It's really an ideological shift that needs to happen to make it work, wouldn't it?
Speaker 2:So there's already been speculation that this could be another thing that might bring down the Netanyahu coalition. Another thing that might bring down the Netanyahu coalition, of course, enjoys a coalition agreement with a number of religious parties, including, I think, the biggest one is Shas. Is that right?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So what's your speculation about this? Do you think it is the sort of thing that could bring down his coalition? Or so you said that there's been a month extension has been given, so what rabbit might he pull out of the hat to ensure that this is not the undoing of his coalition?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I'll just say at the moment there's three issues that threaten Netanyahu's coalition. One is the inevitable October 7th inquiry, which I'm sure will find him in some way responsible for not listening to intelligence, and that inquiry does find that I'm sure there'll be a lot of calls for him to resign, as there are already. The second is the issue of the hostages which are, at the time of this being recorded, have not been returned to Israel and a lot of people hold him responsible for that. And then the third is the Haredi draft issue. Of those three, look, I don't have a fortune teller ball. I don't know which is going to hurt him the most or which is going to bring him down first.
Speaker 3:I know that Netanyahu stayed in power for a very, very long time because he has an incredible ability of always pulling a rabbit out of the hat in the last moment and taking a very hot button issue and then just diverting the country's attention to another issue, and then that what you thought was this sort of hot button issue just became the third or fourth story on the news.
Speaker 3:And who knows, that could be an issue with Iran, an issue with the United States, maybe a change in the US administration. There's lots of issues that could happen that could take this issue off the front page and then leave it as one of those unresolved issues that Israel should resolve by, in my opinion, writing a constitution. So you know, every time I write off Netanyahu, he always manages to bounce back. But I'd say all those three issues really threaten his leadership in very fundamental ways, and probably I would say the Haredi issue even, maybe more than the first two, because that's an issue within his own coalition. The other two issues, his coalition, I think, would stick by him, but this third one is an issue that can break up literally the people that support him in their power. That you know, if they decided to vote on a no confidence motion, if he did pass a law that forced them to be drafted, then that would be the end of his rule.
Speaker 2:So we're recording on the 18th of April. I think we can expect any decision from the Israeli government on this not until the start of May.
Speaker 3:The court has given them extension yet to the end of the month to kind of come up with some sort of solution. I don't think they will, but probably what will happen is I don't know. I don't want to predict the future because I'll be wrong and I don't want to sound stupid. So I don't know. I don't know what the future is. I'm a history teacher. I talk about the past.
Speaker 1:As a secular Jew, but someone who has taught at an ultra-Orthodox school I believe you taught at ADAS in Melbourne how do you feel about the exemption? Do you support it?
Speaker 3:So I'll just say firstly, just personally, I do not hate Haredim and I know many people that are like. I'm very secular. I go to the LGBT LGBT pride march. I vote for very left-wing parties. I want to go out on Shabbat. I believe there should be public transport.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm a classic secular Israeli Jew but unlike most secular Israeli Jews, I have a lot of respect for Haredim. And because I'm a pluralist and I think pluralism means respecting difference, and I think a lot of secular Israeli Jews are very pluralist on a lot of issues except Haredim, I think that Haredim is where they draw the line and that's where their pluralism ends and their compassion ends, because they see something in Haredim that is so opposite, you know, I guess, to our liberal, democratic way of life. And then they say I can't tolerate that, I can't tolerate the gender segregation and the lack of academic study and all of those sorts of things. And I'm of the view that if I want someone to respect me and to, you know, not try and stop me from having a pride march in my neighbourhood or do something on Shabbat or whatever, then I need to respect them. And there's obviously a lot of people cross lines and a lot of people cross lines and a lot of people do you know, go into each other's neighborhoods and do things to stop them practicing one way or the other.
Speaker 3:When I was a teacher at Adas in Melbourne, which is is a school for many different Hasidic streams of Judaism there, I think the boys that I that I taught were sweet kids and they, you know, yeah, they don't have mobile phones, you know they're not, they weren't on the internet and they didn't read really any books that were not, you know, books authorized by the school. But they're, they're still kids and they still laugh and joke and play on their scooters and ride their bikes around and they're kids and I saw, I think there's something beautiful in their, in their way of life that I respect and I honour. It's not how I want to raise my children, but I don't believe that it's my place to tell them how to raise their children. In the same way, it's not their place to tell them me how to raise my children. Now, on the issue of the army draft, I extend that same principle to my views on Israel. So they have a religious belief that means that they can't serve in the army, and something that I respect. They believe that they're protecting Israel by studying Torah and by praying, and I don't want to impose my beliefs on them, and personally I believe and I know this puts me in minority in Israel but I think all army service should be optional in Israel.
Speaker 3:I think serving in an army raises a lot of moral and ethical questions, especially regarding Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, which I personally find very troubling. I also believe that serving in an army can sometimes put a risk to your life and I think it should be optional for everyone, and everyone should have a choice to either serve in the army or do national service. But I don't think anyone should be punished for the choices that they make or they don't make, as in if someone wants or do national service, but I don't think anyone should be punished for the choices that they make or they don't make, as in if someone wants to choose national service or choose tourist lady or choose to serve in the army. I think people should have those choices, because I know that's what exists in Australia and exists in the US, and a lot of countries in the world have very strong armies and don't have mandatory service, and I think Israel could still have a very strong army without mandatory service, and to me that's how I'd like this issue to be resolved, because I think once army service is not mandatory, I think actually more Haredim would serve than do currently because no one's forcing them to do it. Then the ones that want to serve can serve, and you're not serving it because you don't want to be put in prison or you don't want your yeshiva stypan to be covered. You serve because that's how you want to serve the country, and if you want to serve the country by volunteering in Zaka or Hatzalah or many other Haredi organisations that do wonderful things, the community should be able to do that too.
Speaker 3:But I don't believe government should compel people to serve in armies. I feel very strongly that that's not something a government should do. I understand Israel's at war and I think the alternative to that is to strive for peace. If Israel doesn't have enough soldiers, if Israel feels like it can't maintain ongoing wars forever, then I think we should invest more time and more effort into making agreements. I think that started with Abraham. Of course, we have peace with Jordan with initiative, and I think that they're things that we should explore in terms of you know the way to deal with this issue is not to have an army that is strong, that is, you know, filled with more and more soldiers that spend more and more of their time fighting wars that that seem to never end, that we should be striving for a different reality, and I think that when Israelis and Palestinians make that choice to take the path of peace and not the path of violence, then all of our lives will be much, much better.
Speaker 1:That was beautiful, though I am hungry and I'm thinking it's the Adas community in Melbourne that they do Yumi's dip, don't they?
Speaker 3:They do the Yumi's dip and the Yumi's dip is it's like heroin. There's something in the yummies dip not, I don't take heroin, I just want to clarify. But uh, I I understand. Some people that take it have told me it's somewhat addictive and I think yummies dip has heroin in it, because once you start with a little cracker in yummies dip, you just can't stop you know, I tell you what it has yeah it's they've got.
Speaker 1:This is my fetch of the week. There are two fetches of the week actually. The first one is that yumi's trout mousse and tuna dip are amazing and addictive, but they've got sugar in them. That's why it's not heroin, it's sugar.
Speaker 3:Ah it's the sugar, that's the okay yumi's.
Speaker 1:If're listening, you need to come out with a sugar-free version. That's my first kvetch. Second kvetch is it's actually really hard to get Yumi's trout mousse and tuna dip in Sydney. So I don't know if there's some kind of rivalry they're a bit over us but it's been really hard to get them. Yumi's fried fish balls haven't seen them in ages. Them Yumi's fried fish balls haven't seen them in ages. That's my other kvetch, and I should say that Yumi's probably a good sponsor for this show potential sponsor, don't you think?
Speaker 2:Just point of clarification, isai, are you suggesting, after all these years of living in Jerusalem, that you still rate Yumi's hummus that highly?
Speaker 3:Yumi's hummus is terrible and I get much better hummus than Yumi's hummus, but Yumi's hummus that highly. Yumi's hummus is terrible and I get much better hummus than Yumi's hummus, but Yumi's trout dip is a one-of-a-kind and the other thing is the other thing that's one-of-a-kind is Glick's challah. Now, there's obviously a lot of challah that you can get in Israel. I don't know how much sugar Glick's put in their challah as well, but there's nothing in the world that tastes as good as Glicks challah. So there's two things I miss from Melbourne. One is your liberal democracy. The second is your yummies and your Glicks challah. But aside from that, I eat much better here on so many levels than I do in Australia, because Israeli food is just awesome.
Speaker 2:I've always been impressed by the fact that you can generally still have a slice of Glicks challuller four, five, six weeks after having first purchased it. It's got amazing staying power.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think it's a cake. I don't think it's actually bread. I think if there's ever a nuclear war, I think the two things that will survive will be the cockroaches and the Glicks Huller.
Speaker 2:Cockroaches and Glicks Huller. Good. Well, I can see that Tammy's frozen, which is always a good sign. So, Itai, thank you again for talking us through Israel as you see it from your lens, from your perspective in Jerusalem. It's been great to learn more about the ultra-Orthodox part of Israel's population and this very hot-button topic of whether or not they should be exempt from military service.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to be a part of the Jewish Independent family and let's hope our next conversation is about happier occasions and happier things so, tammy.
Speaker 2:that brings us nearly to the end of episode five of A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1:But first, before we go, I received another angry letter, so I think it's only appropriate that you read this letter, dash, and then we'll play it to some Kitch Klesma music.
Speaker 2:Only appropriate for me.
Speaker 1:I just think that because a male person sent it to me and the tone was quite patronising, that it would tonally be more appropriate for you to read it to me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for clarifying Okay, more appropriate for you to read it to me. Thank you for clarifying Okay. I salute your engagement in this podcast, tammy, but could I just say that the question of Jerusalem is not as the Jewish capital, as you say in your ep two, it's a question of the capital of Israel. We Jews live all over the world, tammy, in many capitals.
Speaker 2:I really believe that conflating the cultural identity of being Jewish with the national identity of Israeli is a real problem and part of the confusion that spurs worldwide generalized anti-Semitism amongst the majority of the population, who are not and never will be across the complexities and the notion of quoteunquote. The Jewish state is also part of it, I admit, but it's a dangerous confusion, key epistemology that affects every Jewish person, regardless of where they sit in the current debacle of this interminable issue, which is and had always been more a national issue than a religious one at its core, despite that national struggle being hijacked and misappropriated by both Hamas extremists terrorists and Messianic Israeli religious extremists, who are pretty much also actually terrorists. Let's be honest. Just my two cents, martin.
Speaker 1:I didn't even realise. I was referring to Jerusalem as the Jewish capital, not the Israeli capital, anyway.
Speaker 2:The lesson to take from this is that people will often hear into what you say, what they want to hear or what they have already decided, you think. So I'm not sure whether you said that or not, but thank you for that bit of fan mail, martin. So keep them coming. Just please, if you are going to write in, punctuate your commentary so as to allow me a bit of time to breathe as I read. So that really is us done for Episode 5 of A Shame to Admit, with Dash Lawrence and me, tammy Sussman.
Speaker 1:We're keeping that in. This is a TJI podcast. Go Dash.
Speaker 2:Today's episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1:Special thanks to Itai Flesher once again, and to God for inflicting the plishtim with hemorrhoids after they stole the Aron HaKodesh following the Jews' defeat in battle as referenced in the Book of Shmuel. A riveting read.
Speaker 2:And if you like the podcast and Tammy, I've had one or two people now telling me that they have binged our podcasts. Wow, I don't think I've ever been binged before in my life. I love the idea of being binged. Please encourage others to binge us and, you know, jump onto Apple Podcasts and give us a five-star review, and thank you to all of those who have done so and left sparklingly positive comments. We really appreciate it. And if you're like me and you like following up on all the things that you heard in the podcast, dive into our show notes and you'll see the articles that Tammy and I and Itai referenced right there in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Mum. You just have to scroll down a bit and then you'll see the show notes with links. You can also have a kvel or a kvetch via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website, or you can email ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau. You can also make a voice memo on your app on your phone and email that in too, and we'll play next week or the week after, as always. Thanks for your support and see you next week. Do you know what this is the sound of?
Speaker 2:Do you know what this is the sound of?
Speaker 1:This is an empty container of Yumi's premium moose dip. Why is it empty? Because Yumi's dips are only ever in two states. They're either full or empty. There's no in between.