Ashamed to Admit
Are you ashamed to admit you're not across the big issues and events affecting Jews in Australia, Israel and around the Jewish world?
In this new podcast from online publication The Jewish Independent, Your Third Cousin Tami Sussman and TJI's Dashiel Lawrence tackle the week's 'Chewiest and Jewiest' topics.
Ashamed to Admit
Episode #18 Israel and Hezbollah on the brink, with content creator Elhanan Miller
Are Israel and Hezbollah on the brink of an all-out war? We confront the escalating conflict between Israel and Hezbollah with Arab affairs expert and content creator Elhanan Miller. Elhanan sheds light on Israel's recent intelligence and military actions, the influence of Hezbollah's leader Hassan Nasrallah (who was killed in the days after the episode was recorded), and the intricate ties between Hezbollah and Iran. Lastly, we explore the complex cultural and political landscape of Lebanon and its impact on the wider Arab world. Elhanan provides insights into the sectarian divisions and historical alliances that define Lebanon's political scene, examining the role of Maronite Christians and their historical ties to Israel. Despite ongoing turmoil, he shares a hopeful vision for future peace and the role of education in achieving it.
Special thanks to Ivany Investment Group for sponsoring this episode:
Articles relevant to the issues discussed:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/israelis-on-war-alert-lebanese-fleeing-their-homes
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/was-the-pager-attack-sophisticated-targeting-a-war-crime-or-both-north-gaza
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/a-draining-duty-explaining-the-israeli-side-to-arab-media
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/the-future-three-options-remain-after-a-year-of-fighting
If you'd like to see Elhanan speak while he's in Australia:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/events
Email your feedback, questions, show ideas etc: ashamed@thejewishindependent.com.au
(You can also email voice memos here).
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Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in Australia, the Middle East and the world at large? But a little bit ashamed that you haven't done the background reading.
Speaker 2:Well, you've come to the right place. I'm Tammy Sussman and, in this podcast series, author, historian and TJI's executive director, dashiell Lawrence, and I call on experts and each other to address all the ignorant questions that you might be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1:Join us as we have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast. Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 1:Hello to our Australian listeners in Canberra, port Douglas, pearl Beach, and hello to everyone else around the world, be it in Berlin or in Buenos Aires, argentina. You're listening to A Shame to Admit. I'm Dash Lawrence, from the Jewish Independent.
Speaker 2:And I'm Tammy If it's not moist, I won't eat it, sussman.
Speaker 1:Oh, you've got a preference for moist food.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you knew I was talking about food. No, I was talking specifically about honey cake. It's Rosh Hashanah, of course. This episode comes out, I believe the day before Rosh Hashanah, and I have some strong opinions about honey cake. Some public service announcements If it's not moist, don't bother. Straighten the beard.
Speaker 1:Can you ever get too moist Like? Can you ever get to a point where it's just it's gone too far in that direction?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, if it hasn't been cooked properly, that's not ideal. If someone's serving you batter that they haven't even bothered to put it in the oven, that's no bueno. Let's talk about cinnamon for a minute. I feel in my heart that, like cinnamon is neither here nor there. It's a non-essential ingredient for a honey cake. But if you're partial to cinnamon, by all means put it in the cake. Just don't put too much.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Got to be careful with that stuff.
Speaker 2:A lot of people are talking about the fact that their secret ingredient is coffee or tea. I think that affects both the flavor and the color. Just keep in mind that if there are children coming to your home and you're serving this after dinner, if there's caffeine in that cake, that's going to be a little bit probo, as my funny friend Jess would say for the children. If that's your prerogative, go ahead, but perhaps use a decaf coffee or tea. If you are considering putting raisins, sultanas in your honey cake, you need serious help.
Speaker 1:Who's putting sultanas in a honey cake?
Speaker 2:People do it. I'm ashamed to admit that I come from a long line of extremely average to below average bakers and my grandmother, granny Betty, who's still alive Granny Betty, I love you. She used to put sultanas in all her cakes, which were then overcooked in the oven, and so memories of my childhood was of having cake that had had the top and the sides cut off the burnt bits, and then picking out the sultanas.
Speaker 1:As the Anglo-Australian in this conversation. The inclusion of sultanas in a baked item is 100% a product of early 20th century Australian Anglo cooking. Like that was my experience growing up with my grandmother.
Speaker 2:Is it?
Speaker 1:I mean, she was an excellent baker, so I didn't ever have to deal with issues of charcoal, but from a young age I'd be eating sultanas in all sorts of baked treats.
Speaker 2:I was recently Googling a honey cake recipe and I came upon one which suggested adding pecans or walnuts for a bit of extra crunch. Now you're nodding your head, dash.
Speaker 1:I quite like the sound of a bit of crunch with my honey cake.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure that we can be friends anymore.
Speaker 1:Not in every mouthful, maybe just at the top, like doesn't need to be in the body of the cake, like a little walnut here, little walnut there, pecan on top. Okay, anyway, I shouldn't be commenting on what's appropriate to be eating at a Jewish high holiday dinner.
Speaker 2:Are you ashamed, then, that you've just tried to contribute to this conversation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe a little bit ashamed. Okay, as someone who has quite literally a seat at the table and I contribute to the food as well in other ways.
Speaker 2:You're Jew adjacent. It's fine, but clearly you're not aware of the fact that on Rosh Hashanah, you're actually not meant to eat nuts at all. Do you know about this?
Speaker 1:No, no, I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2:I'm about to explain something to you which is refreshing. We've had a lot of listeners say that they're growing tired of you having to explain things to me and that I need to step up. So here I am. I'm enlightening you with some information Now. Some Jews avoid eating nuts during Rosh Hashanah for a few reasons rooted in tradition and symbolism. So the numerical value for the word nut egos is 17, which is the same numerical value, I think, for the word het, which means sin. And so, since Rosh Hashanah it's a time of seeking forgiveness, spiritual renewal, some believe it is best to avoid associations with sin, sin these nuts no walnuts, no pecans, no, no almonds.
Speaker 1:Who's nuts?
Speaker 2:deez nuts. So what I'm actually really ashamed to admit is that my biggest stress right now in the lead up to Jewish New Year is just how I'm going to transport my Jewish Indian fish curry to my sister's house for first night. I am using a recipe from Alana Benjamin's cookbook and we'll be interviewing Alana later this season. And another big stress in my life is whether or not it's appropriate for me to smuggle nuggets into the Ayelet HaShachar Rosh Hashanah service.
Speaker 2:Now, the Ayelet HaShachar Rosh Hashanah service is like the beautiful service where musicians and community sit in concentric circles, and Ayelet HaShachar exists to offer a place of inclusion, especially for people that don't feel represented by other institutions within the Jewish community people of diverse backgrounds, genders, sexualities, abilities and cultural identities. Donnie Jenks, who makes our theme music, is a central figure. What I'm yet to find out is whether or not they're cool with toddlers eating maccas from the third concentric circle. So the reason I feel ashamed or guilty is probably a better word is because our family and friends in Israel have really more legitimate reasons to be stressed right now. They've got bigger fish heads to fry.
Speaker 1:So, in case you've been living under a rock these past few weeks, or perhaps on a silent retreat, you may have missed the fact that Israel's slow boil conflict with Hezbollah, which began in the days after October 7th last year, has taken a dramatic turn.
Speaker 2:First, we had the stunning attack from Israel that saw thousands of handheld pages and hundreds of walkie-talkies used by Hezbollah operatives explode simultaneously across Lebanon and Syria, and some of these attacks happened in public spaces like stores and cafes, leading to the tragic loss of life among non-combatants, including health workers and children.
Speaker 1:And in the days since that attack, targeted airstrikes from the IDF have seen key Hezbollah leaders killed and military infrastructure destroyed. In turn, hezbollah has launched its own counter-offensive attacks, including missiles, which have been directed at Haifa and Tel Aviv in recent days. We're recording this on Thursday, the 26th of September, and by the time this episode comes out, it's very possible that Israel and Hezbollah will have entered an all-out war.
Speaker 2:Now back in season one, we discussed the background to Israel's ongoing conflict with Hezbollah and the role of Iran in all of this, but this week we wanted to bring on someone with another, unique perspective.
Speaker 1:Elhanan Miller is an Israeli who is fluent in Arabic and a former Islamic studies student. He is a former Arab affairs reporter for the Times of Israel and is the founder of People of the Book, an initiative that harnesses the reach of social media to educate a new generation of Arabs curious about Jewish faith and culture.
Speaker 2:Since October 7, Elhanan has become a regular commentator on international Arabic news channels, including BBC Arabic and Sky News Arabia.
Speaker 1:And if that wasn't enough, elhanan is also an ordained rabbi and each year visits Canberra's Jewish community to conduct high holiday services. If you live in Sydney, melbourne or Canberra in the coming weeks holiday services If you live in Sydney, melbourne or Canberra in the coming weeks you'll be able to see him speak at events hosted by the Jewish Independent, and I'll give you further details about those events after the interview, but for now we hope you take something away from this week's wide-ranging conversation with Elhanan Miller. Thank you for joining Ashame to Admit.
Speaker 3:It's a pleasure. Dash and Tammy, Thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 2:There is a humongous fly in this room. I might have to mute myself so as not to distract you, and I'm going to try as much as possible not to derail the conversation with that Dash.
Speaker 1:So around a month ago, hanan, you said that you didn't believe that Israel wanted a war with Hezbollah. In the past 48 hours, israel has struck over 1,600 Hezbollah targets, and by the time this podcast will be published, no doubt it will be even more. Who knows how much further those attacks could have gone in that time. Is it still your view that an all-out war with Hezbollah is something that Israel is trying to avoid?
Speaker 3:Well, it seems like we're in sort of a middle position right now, at this very moment where we're speaking, where, on some level, it seems like an all-out war because there's rockets flying very significantly on both sides. Just about an hour and a half ago, hezbollah fired its first rocket at the center of Israel, at Tel Aviv, which was just intercepted. And, yes, things are escalating and are very, very significant right now, but a ground operation has not happened yet. So whether that is will happen by the time you listen to this podcast or not is anyone's guess, I think.
Speaker 3:But when we think about all out war, that's really what marked the beginning of the Gaza War in a significant way is that Israeli tanks entered Gaza and occupied parts of well all of the Gaza Strip, and we're not there yet with Lebanon. So theoretically, we could step back from the brink or past the brink pretty easily in some way by signing an agreement with Hamas, having a prisoner versus kidnapped hostage exchange, and theoretically that would end the war with Lebanon, because Nasrallah in Lebanon said from the beginning that the only reason why he was engaging Israel was to defend the people of Gaza and to support the people of Gaza, and theoretically, if we ended Gaza. That would end Lebanon. But it seems like the Lebanese front has now taken on a life of its own in some ways, and that's definitely at the moment where most of the engagement is and the attention is. So I'm not sure that a full war with Lebanon is a foregone conclusion. I think we can still step back, but yes, at the moment it's looking very significant.
Speaker 2:Who's Nasrallah? Sorry.
Speaker 3:Hassan Nasrallah is the I don't know what the title is he's the head of Hezbollah, the CEO, you could say, of Hezbollah, and he's been in that position for, I think, almost 35 years, I think from about 92 or 93, if my memory is correct. So he's very much an icon and very identified with Hezbollah and at the moment he seems to be almost gloriously alone at the top of the command because Israel, quite amazingly, has eliminated, has assassinated most of the senior echelon of Hezbollah in a very, very short period, sort of within three or four weeks, including yesterday when it killed the head of the rocket launch project of Hezbollah. So it seems like Israel has very good information, very good intel on Hezbollah and on Lebanon and right now Nasrallah is kind of on his own, almost at the top. The reason that Hezbollah gave for firing rockets at Israel from day two of the war from October 8th 2023, was that they were assisting Hamas in its fight against Israel.
Speaker 3:Okay that they weren't doing this as a purely Lebanese project, but they were supporting the Palestinians as part of what they would call the axis of resistance, which they identify with, which is the organizations and countries that are opposed to Israel. So Nasrallah said from the beginning that once Israel and Hamas reach an agreement, meaning a prisoner swap, which was one of the goals of the kidnapping and murder of October 7, then he's out of the game, meaning he doesn't have to continue engaging Israel. But Israel has avoided, or Israel and Hamas have not managed or weren't willing to reach that agreement yet. So an astrologist continued firing until Israel decided to take him on in a more significant way in the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you, I will mute myself again.
Speaker 1:Elhanan in series one of Ashame. To Admit, we spoke with a security expert, someone who understands the situation in Lebanon very well, a gentleman named Draw Duran, and Draw talked us through the longstanding connections and alliance between Hezbollah and Iran. What's your take on how Nasrallah might be operating now? Do you think taking his orders directly from Tehran, or is it likely that the actions that Hezbollah might be taking in the coming weeks are going to be his alone?
Speaker 3:So that's a really good question, because I think there's constantly a dilemma for Nasrallah and for Hezbollah. On the one hand, they are an Iranian creation. They were set up and created by Iran in the early 80s and they're very aligned with the policies and foreign policy of the Islamic Republic of Iran. But on the other hand, there's always a question of is their loyalty total? And I think the answer is no. I think they're also a Lebanese player. At the same time, it's their family members living in the south of Lebanon and that's where their support base is, and there are elections and there is a sort of a shell of a democratic process in Lebanon and they need support from their people.
Speaker 3:So at the moment they've avoided going beyond the brink, I think, and risking total war with Israel, although now that's questionable again, because they fired at Tel Aviv just now and that sort of always seemed to be the prelude to Israel firing at Beirut, and then that's it, and then all hell breaks loose. But I think essentially, lebanon today is in a different place than it was in the previous Lebanon war. Lebanon is on the brink of bankruptcy, on the brink of collapse as a country, almost. There are power shortages, lebanon doesn't have energy, doesn't have money. So entering a full war with Israel right now would be extremely risky for Lebanon as a whole.
Speaker 3:And I guess it's a moment of truth. It's a kind of test for Hezbollah whether it's still at all loyal to Lebanon as a country or whether the resistance project, as I kind of phrased it before, this total loyalty to the access of resistance and to Hamas and to Iran's agenda, is total and whether they're really willing to sacrifice Lebanon as a country for that ideology. And I don't have an answer for that yet. We're sort of in the middle of this and I think we'll know in the next few days what the case is.
Speaker 1:I wanted to first get your take on how the rest of the Arabic-speaking world is looking at this current conflict. You speak Arabic, you're regularly engaged on Arabic media. You have a huge number of connections in the Arab world and a huge number of followers as well on your various social media channels. How have Arab countries in the Middle East responded? Let's start first with the Pager attack, the stunning attack last week that Israel launched, killing at least a dozen and injuring over 2,000 people. How, initially, did the Arab Middle East respond to that attack?
Speaker 3:Right. So I have to say first that you know my access to the Arab world is mostly virtual. So I have to say first that you know my access to the Arab world is mostly virtual. In other words, I kind of watch it through a little bit of a broken prism of social media X and the questions I get asked on TV channels. So I'm not sure that that's sort of the best way to gauge. You know the mood, but because I don't have neighbors, guests, you know, friends who I can speak to about this, so I don't know how accurate my view is, but I feel like it's been a mix of shock and amazement and maybe anger, depending on where you sit, vis-a-vis Israel.
Speaker 3:There are so many elements that are at play here. I mean there is, on the one hand, admiration for Hezbollah and what it managed to do to Israel over the years. You know, humiliate Israel, harm Israel. On the other hand, there's a within the Arab world there's a Sunni Shia tension where many the majority, I would say, of Arab Muslims are suspicious or even hostile to Hezbollah as a Shia organization with a very different religious worldview than most Sunni Arabs. But I think, just like in Israel, there was a sense of amazement at the accomplishment of managing to target so many Hezbollah people in one day.
Speaker 3:We sometimes forget that Hezbollah was engaged in war in Syria, in the civil war in Syria for a decade or so, in the civil war in Syria for a decade or so, and Syria as a country feels completely betrayed or harmed by Hezbollah because Hezbollah aligned itself with Assad, who killed tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands, of Syrians.
Speaker 3:So, at least among the Syrian rebels or the Syrian opposition, you have a huge feeling of contentment and pleasure at this and, I think, also a sense of failure and inadequacy that they haven't managed to do something that Israel managed within such a short period of time with such technological and intelligence supremacy to accomplish. But on the other hand, you know, now Israel is significantly bombarding Lebanon and a lot of people are becoming refugees and having to leave their homes at a time where Lebanon was already at the brink of collapse. As I said, and I'm also hearing other voices saying, you know, we're all Lebanese the country as a country is being attacked. Israel is our first enemy. So there's this kind of sense, I think, of duality and ambivalence. But again, I haven't been speaking personally to friends, so I'm sure it really depends on where you stand, on Hezbollah and on Lebanon and on Israel, as to how happy you are about what's happening right now.
Speaker 1:What about some of the other Arab states and I'm thinking here of Saudi Arabia and the UAE who have been described by some as silent partners in this war?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that that also plays very much into this Sunni-Shia axis where, the more, of course, saudi Arabia is at the forefront of this Wahhabi kind of fundamentalist, in a way, sunni conservatism and very happy to, you know, deal blows to Iran and its allies, foremost among them Hezbollah. But you know, I think there's also a question that many Israelis are asking themselves about what the end game is meaning. What is Israel's end goal in all of this and once it finishes destroying Hezbollah and Hamas in Gaza, what's next? What's the plan, what's the strategy? And that's a question that even moderate what we would call moderate Arab countries don't have an answer for, and we Israelis don't have an answer for. We don't know what the end game is. So we see a lot of sticks right now. The carrots are still kind of vague and I think Sunni and Shia and Israelis are all asking themselves what comes next after this war.
Speaker 2:Can I ask a few questions at this point?
Speaker 3:Sure Tammy go ahead.
Speaker 2:That was more to Dash.
Speaker 1:Yeah, please go ahead, Tammy.
Speaker 2:You mentioned the Syrians before. They're not friends of Israel, right.
Speaker 3:No, none of the Arab countries if you're talking about populations are friends of Israel.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. So even though Israel f***ed up Hezbollah, can I say f***ed up in front of you because you're a rabbi.
Speaker 3:You said it.
Speaker 2:Okay, sorry.
Speaker 3:This is an Australian broadcast.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. So Israel f***ed up Hezbollah. Some of the Syrians were like f***. Yes, you know we wanted to f*** them up, does that?
Speaker 3:mean that, like my enemy's, enemy is now my friend or still? No, not. No, I don't think so. I mean, I think some of the Arab countries have, in the course of the Arab Spring, meaning over the last decade, been awakened to this lie of the axis of resistance what I just called the axis of resistance to Israel and realized and especially in Syria, realized how the slogan of resisting Israel was really used to oppress them as citizens and not really to do anything to Israel. So for decades, for example, bashar Assad was using Israel as a kind of rallying call, but he was doing nothing to Israel. He was never attacking Israel and instead he was just using this kind of to rally, support and oppress his own people.
Speaker 3:And during the Arab Spring, israel was actually treating Syrian rebels and Syrian civilians who were being bombarded by Assad and Hezbollah and the Russians, and they were being treated in Israeli hospitals. I visited Israeli hospitals where children who were victims of barrel bombings in Daraa in southern Syria were being treated as well, of course, as rebels and fighters. So those people, I think, would be happy to be allies of Israel. I think they would be happy for Syria to enjoy the stability that Dubai and Morocco and Egypt have gained through peace agreements with Israel. I think they don't want war and displacement. There's millions of Syrian refugees and now, amazingly, we're seeing an opposite move of actual Lebanese refugees heading back to Syria for safety, which is insane because of the situation right now.
Speaker 2:And you mentioned moderate Muslim. Sorry, what terminology did you use?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I use the term kind of with reservations because, yes, Syria sorry, Saudi Arabia is moderate in terms of peace with Israel, but it's a pretty authoritarian, very religious country, as are Gulf countries, you know. So they're moderate, as in, they're aligned with the West and the United States, right, but domestically they're not democracies and their people are not pro-Zionist or pro-Israeli or have any understanding of the Jewish link to this land. But you know, they want a decent life. They're very hyper-capitalist in many of these countries and they enjoy McDonald's and, you know, shopping malls and things like that, and they don't want their lives to be completely beholden to an endless war with Israel that will never end. So in that sense they're not friends of Israel, they haven't adopted Herzl as their role model, but they, I think, see a better future in peace with Israel.
Speaker 2:Okay, last question you also mentioned a stick and a carrot, and I'm pretty sure that's a really intelligent analogy, but it's gone right over my head, so can you explain that please?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what I mean by that is that if it were clear to the world, israel's allies, the West, that the outcome of the war with Gaza was would be replacing Hamas with a moderate Palestinian authority that would lead to a two-state solution at the end of the road, after rehabilitation and negotiations, then I think people in the West would be much more willing to understand Israel's war and the high number of victims on especially the Palestinian side, and the same now goes for Lebanon.
Speaker 3:If it were completely clear that there is a peace plan looming on the horizon and that Israel is vying for that peace and just needs to eliminate the terrorist elements that are blocking that peace deal, then I think we would have much more support in the West. What many people are arguing now is that Israel is like a rogue state that is just out there to do wars and Israel is not doing enough to dispel that impression. Because we're in this belligerent mindset for the past year because of the shock and trauma, which are justified for what happened on October 7. And we are not able and politically our government is not able to put forward a peace plan because of political considerations, and that's really devastating, I think, for Israel standing right now diplomatically in the world, because when I say carrots I mean sort of a promise of peace, the promise of integration into the Middle East, and Israel is not articulating that or offering that to the world and it's making it more difficult to defend Israel's wars right now.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you, I will mute myself again.
Speaker 1:Elhanan, some of this ground was covered earlier in Season 1, but I won't expect that all listeners will have heard that episode, so let's go over it again, because it's very apt and important question at the moment, and that is around the diversity of Lebanon. So can you help our listeners understand just how divided Lebanon is religiously, ethnically, politically and what those differences might currently mean for the ways that the Lebanese people will be looking at Hezbollah? Because there will be some Lebanese people that regard Hezbollah as an organisation that they just want to see the back of, and then others that, as you said earlier, will be seeing this as an attack on Lebanon and will be given reason to want to kind of unite around Hezbollah. So help us understand the diversity of Lebanon.
Speaker 3:Right. So what I find is the tragedy of Lebanon, or Lebanese-Israeli relations, is that Lebanon is by far the country that's most similar to Israel in the region Lebanon and Israel are almost like twins if you look at the circumstances of how they were born.
Speaker 3:Lebanon was carved out of greater Syria by the French and sort of got its final independence in the 40s, a couple of years before Israel, in order to have a country that would be a safe haven for Christians, the Christian Syrians, right. But it carved out too much land. It carved out too many provinces that included Shia Muslims those are the ones in southern Lebanon Sunni Muslims right in the north and cities like Tripoli and in Beirut. In addition to the Maronite Christians, you also have the Druze in Mount Lebanon. So you have it's an incredibly diverse country in terms of sectarianism, but it just meant that pretty soon they realized that the Christians were not a majority and that meant that Lebanon, from the outset, was a very weak country and a very divided country, and it went from civil war to civil war as these different sects were vying for power and control and they put in a political system in which they divided power, where the president would be Christian, the chief of staff would be, I think, druze, prime minister is always a Sunni Arab, and this sectarian system has been very fragile, but it became clear just like I mean. Lebanon over the years experienced a huge brain drain because of this endemic state of war. And that's why in Sydney you have the biggest Lebanese community outside of Lebanon, because over decades people who had had capabilities and you know education just didn't want to stay in a country that was ravaged by war all the time. So you have now a weaker Lebanese state and you have just like a weak body virus kind of attacking it, and these various viruses were sometimes Israeli occupation in the early 80s and Syrian occupation in the 80s and 90s till 2005. And now you have essentially a Lebanese occupation of a sect of Hezbollah, which is an Iranian organ which has kind of superimposed itself in Lebanon and Lebanon.
Speaker 3:I see it as sort of the nightmare scenario for Israel. I know people don't make this comparison often, but sometimes they do and they say that if Israel finds itself in this endemic state of war with its neighbors and we're starting to experience a brain drain, unfortunately, and some migration out of Israel because of the situation, then if Israel doesn't solve its issues politically, then it could find itself going down a very dangerous road where all its vital productive powers are leaving because Israelis are very educated and they could find themselves somewhere else in the world and you would be left with the poorer, less educated and maybe more radicalized segments of society staying in Israel. That would be the failure of Zionism. For me, that would be a very bad outcome. So when I look at Lebanon, I see sort of a warning sign for Israel. I'm like, wow, this could happen to us if we're not careful. And that reflects on Hezbollah. I mean people who are more poor because the Shiites were the poor segments of society historically and less educated, are going to be gung-ho Hezbollah supporters.
Speaker 3:And you see this now in footage coming out. You see people leaving their homes with their very bare belongings or with no belongings and saying, yes, we will support you, hasan Nasrallah, forever, because we have nothing in this world and we're just waiting for the afterlife, because this world is meaningless, which is something you would never hear from an educated, more secularized person. And it's very hard for Western people to understand that mindset. What does that mean? To be loyal to a person or an ideology to your detriment. But in Israel, you can kind of understand that mindset because there are people in Israel who have left their homes and are refugees now for a year in a hotel and are still saying we will support Netanyahu regardless because of identity politics or because of whatever. And yeah, so we're not that different at the end of the day, there are actually a lot of similarities between us and our neighbours of the day.
Speaker 2:There are actually a lot of similarities between us and our neighbours Elhanan. On that note, my friend works with a Lebanese Australian who has told her that Hezbollah has actually done some great things for the country. Is she living la vida loca? Is she cooked or is there something to that?
Speaker 3:No, of course there is, and Hezbollah very sophisticatedly set up a chain of charities and social welfare networks that I think primarily helped their own Shia population.
Speaker 3:I don't think it was distributed to all Lebanese equally, but where the state failed and Lebanon as a very, very weak country, but also a hyper capitalist country that doesn't have healthcare, like universal healthcare or social services, hezbollah stepped in and provided those services to the impoverished people, just like Hamas did, by the way, and reached so much support. And I will say in Hebrew, not to make facile comparisons but we have a party in Israel called Shas, which is an ultra-Orthodox party and again, I don't want to make because Israel is a very different country but we have a party that has an education system and has a social welfare network for impoverished Mizrahi or Sephardi Jews in development towns and provides warm meals for them in schools and a free education, and they gain political support through social and educational endeavors and it's kind of the same thing. So no, she's not living in La La Land, she's actually. That's an accurate reading and that's why Hezbollah still has a lot of support in Lebanon.
Speaker 1:You mentioned earlier that you have this very particular insight into the minds of people in the Arab world because you speak to and engage with so many of them through social medias. So have you heard voices from Lebanon who feel deep down that they want to see Israel crush Hezbollah? Because that's something that we hear, but of course, no one's publicly going to do that in Lebanon right now, or even in times not of war and crisis.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so again, my personal social media project is about religion and faith and you know I have almost 400,000 followers across the Arab world between YouTube, facebook, tiktok, instagram. But I don't engage in politics there. I'm trying to keep that as sort of a pure cultural space, so I don't think I get all the political stuff on the reactions there. But I do follow you know X and Facebook and I see engagement. And, yeah, you see a very you know X and Facebook and I see engagement.
Speaker 3:And yeah, you see a very radical sort of gloating anti-Hizballah sentiment on the one hand and a lot of memes and cartoons and caricatures of Hizballah being pummeled because there's a lot of animosity and sense of revenge, right. But again, I don't think that manifests itself as pro-Israel sentiment necessarily. It is a bit my enemy's enemy issue and yeah, it really depends on where you're standing. If you read a Saudi or an Emirati or just an adversary of Hezbollah within the countries you know, a Sunni Iraqi or a Sunni Lebanese, then you can see a lot of anti-Hezbollah sentiments. At the end of the day, yes, the Arab countries are frameworks but at the end of the day there's a lot of sectarianism, tribalism and often you'll be defined much more. Your positions, I guess, would be determined much more on what your faith is and whether you suffered from one form of religious violence or the other, and that would kind of depend on who you determine, who you support.
Speaker 1:Something we haven't heard much about, or at least I don't hear much about them anymore, is the Maronite Christians in Lebanon and, of course, their alliance with Israel during the first Lebanon War of 1982. What I'm wanting to know from you is the role of the Maronite Christians today in Lebanon and, to what extent they like, where is their positioning in this current stage of the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel?
Speaker 3:Right, so I'll start with an anecdote. In 2012, I was doing a fellowship in London which was this peace fellowship called the Atkin Fellowship and I was paired with a Lebanese Christian woman student and we both were writing research. And this was my first real interaction with a Lebanese Christian woman student and we both were writing research, and this was my first real interaction with a Lebanese Christian or a Lebanese per se. And I came with all these expectations right that she would hate Hezbollah and love Israel because she was Maronite, and I was completely taken aback when that wasn't the case. She hated everyone equally, meaning she disliked everyone who destroyed Lebanon in her mind, and that included Hezbollah, but it also included Israel that bombed the bridge leading to her small city, historic city of Jbeil or Byblos, which is north of Beirut. So I think we come in with these assumptions that if you are X, then you will think Y. Right, but that's not always the case.
Speaker 3:But to answer your question, dash, I think that I guess the former elite of Lebanon, which was the Christian elite, is significantly diminished in today's Lebanese political makeup.
Speaker 3:At least, they might still be a cultural elite, they might still be the ones producing a lot of the music or the literature, but I think you'll find more Maronites outside of Lebanon being influential than inside, and it's a little bit like the social like.
Speaker 3:I keep making these comparisons to Israel, but I feel like it's kind of similar to the social secular elite that founded the state of Israel in the kibbutzim and, you know, socialist Zionism, which maybe is still celebrated in parts of the world, like in Australia, right with Habbo or Hashi and right the various socialist secular youth movements. But in Israel their position is much diminished today and they are not as influential as they used to be. And I feel like the Christian Maronites have less power and influence over what Lebanon as a country will do, because Lebanon isn't really in control of itself. Now it's really Hezbollah that has much more power and hard power, military power, than the country of Lebanon, and I think they're a bit helpless to affect any change. And if they can, many of them are just leaving Lebanon because it's a hopeless situation for them.
Speaker 1:And clearly Israel can no longer count on them as being an influential ally in the country and a useful pawn.
Speaker 3:I made a little bit of a political video early on in this war on my channel where I said you know, lebanon and Israel are so similar. When I look at Lebanese hipsters and at the culture coming out of Beirut, beirut and Haifa are so similar. Like you have secular, westernized, french or English speaking elites creating culture, and I don't think anywhere else in the Middle East you have as many woke people like you do in Beirut versus Tel Aviv or Haifa. But it seems like politically those people are just inconsequential. They're just not the ones calling the shots politically, which is a tragedy. Because I think if, like there were no borders, like in the song Imagine, then we and these people in Lebanon could be best friends. I think someone from Tel Aviv could find themselves more feeling more comfortable in Beirut than they would in Jerusalem, where I live. But the tragedy is there's a border and they just can't go to Beirut and people from Beirut can't come and party in Tel Aviv because the powers that be are just stronger.
Speaker 2:I even know personally, just being an Aussie in Sydney, and my Lebanese friends it's really hard to describe, but it's like you know, brothers, sisters, just this really special bond, yeah, and I don't know where it stems from. I instantly connect with them, yeah.
Speaker 3:You know people sometimes talk about this Mediterranean culture because you know Lebanon, israel, just share the same coast. You just keep driving north and you're in Lebanon. Or you know the temperament between Jews and Lebanese is similar, I think. I think it's intuitive and that's the tragedy. It's really sad that we can't get along better. Really, really sad.
Speaker 1:Elhanan, it feels like your mission in life is to help the perhaps help the Arabic-speaking people of the Middle East better understand Israel and the Jewish world, and also for Israelis in the Jewish world to better understand the Arab Middle East. You do that through your content creation, which we've talked about, and your appearances on Arabic-speaking television, and your education and your initiatives like People of the Book. But I wanted to know from you we're coming up to the 12-month anniversary since October 7th how much harder has that mission been for you in this last year?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been much harder. The first dilemma was how political? Do I want to get engaged in my project, which, as I said, was always non-political, and I made a decision very early on to make videos about the hostages and make videos that had to do with humane treatment of hostages, because I felt like my channel was reaching places that many Israelis couldn't reach, including the Gaza Strip, and that maybe my voice could contribute in saving lives and maybe even helping end this sooner by people there denouncing Hamas somehow. Unfortunately, I wouldn't say that that was so successful. I had a lot of hopes, specifically in the release of Hirsch Goldberg Polen, who is the son of my colleague and a neighbor in Jerusalem, and tragically that ended with his death and the death of five others who were kept with him in that tunnel, as well as so many other hostages who had died since the beginning of the war. So things are looking quite grim.
Speaker 3:I think on the hostage front and, amazingly, my channel. There was a spike in views of hundreds of percentage points at the beginning of the war. People seem to be sort of completely engrossed and fascinated with Israel and Judaism. In a way way I profited, so to speak, by this spike in interest. But another amazing thing happened, which was I started getting phone calls from TV channels which I was always being interviewed in on a very kind of low level, and since October 7, it's been between, I'd say, three to six interviews a day nonstop for a year. I don't know of any other story that stayed in the news cycle for that long. I don't think Ukraine and Russia have been the top of the news cycle for this year. I don't know of any other story that stayed in the news cycle for that long. I don't think Ukraine and Russia have been the top of the news cycle for this long. So the world is completely engaged in what's happening and the Arab world is as well. So I've kind of had this split personality On TV.
Speaker 3:I speak about hard politics and about Israel and about my views and even about the need to go to elections and change our governments, and I try to keep my people of the book project that I've been working on for seven years, which is a cultural project, as non political as possible.
Speaker 3:And even when I talk about hostages, I try to speak about it from a religious and spiritual standpoint. You know the religious significance of not taking children and women as hostages and how you're supposed to treat them. But the reason why I'm keeping my project as non-political is that I don't want it to be seen as a Hasbara channel that is meant to just defend Israel always. I want it to reach people who are not sold on Israel but that are interested in Jewish culture and in Islamic culture and want to see us as Jews in a different light and maybe a more positive light. Then the news will make us appear, and that's why it's so important for me to not mix politics in it, because I want it to be a safe haven of positivity about Judaism. So that's my hope that it still is that even after a year of war.
Speaker 1:There's been so many, countless examples of people that have disengaged. We've even experienced a Jewish independent. Some of our Palestinian readers, or readers that come from the Arabic speaking world unsubscribed from us, don't want to hear from a Jewish publication. Has people of the book suffered from a loss of followers?
Speaker 3:Not that I can tell. What was really interesting to me is that, as far as I did do more political content, I recently put up a series of interviews, which I thought were very meaningful, with a Palestinian guy from Gaza who I filmed in Germany last month, and I put up three interviews with him where we actually did speak about, you know, life in Gaza and how we can interact, and I thought this was a very positive kind of contribution to understanding. Very, very low viewership, almost no interest. They come to my channel to learn about tefillin, about kosher food, about what I think about a verse and just to learn about Jewish culture and I feel like that hasn't suffered so much. And maybe that means that there's a whole segment of the Arab world out there that we just don't hear about, that is just disengaged from everything happening with the war or not as involved, and it's just curious. And people can be curious and see this stuff in the privacy of their phones or their laptops. They don't need to tell other people what they're watching. There's captions. They can watch it silently if they want. Yeah, I think we're a little bit self absorbed and we think everything maybe just revolves around us meaning politically, but maybe people are just interested in other things than we think sometimes.
Speaker 3:I'm actually an optimist.
Speaker 3:I think that wars inevitably end and sometimes, when they end, they bring just like scorched earth.
Speaker 3:Something new can grow sometimes and I always see wars as ending as an opportunity for something new, and I'm a little bit hopeful as we speak now that something completely different will come out of this, because we've been stuck politically and the Palestinian issue was at the bottom of the agenda in Israel and in the world because it was easy to ignore, and now that it's back at the front, I'm hoping that it won't just fester as a tragedy but that new ideas will be able to emerge, and this interest sort of in regeneration has kind of made me hopeful that hopefully the world will try to re-engage with us and solve this issue, because keeping it this way is untenable and I think we need to be the leaders on this and not the followers.
Speaker 3:We don't need other people to impose a solution. We need to be the ones coming up with the ideas and I hope in some way I can be one of those people, to be the ones coming up with the ideas, and I hope in some way I can be one of those people who is engaged in coming up with those ideas, because I very much believe in Israel integrating into the Middle East. I really believe in the potential that we have. So I really hope that this war ends quickly and that we can, as Israelis, in our ingenuity, we can invent something new that will help us come out of this better.
Speaker 2:Shkoyach, and actually a lovely way to end the interview.
Speaker 1:But we're not going to.
Speaker 2:Are you fans of Marvelous Mrs Maisel, the TV series?
Speaker 3:Well, I know I should be, and I started watching it twice and I never managed to get through it.
Speaker 2:Shame on you, Dash Marvelous Mrs Maisel, are you a fan?
Speaker 1:I think I gave it a go once, or maybe twice as well.
Speaker 2:So it would be journalistically responsible of me not to ask you how you feel about the American Lebanese actor Tony Shalhoub being cast as the Jewish patriarch of Marvell. Mrs Maisel Abe Weissman, Do you have any strong opinions on that?
Speaker 3:No, this is actually the first time I hear about this, but it doesn't surprise me because I think again this Mediterranean thing. I think Italians, greeks, lebanese and Jews especially in the American experience right this melting pot, actually all kind of are similar and maybe that just means that we're not so unique as Jews. I mean, we're so we do navel gazing and we're so self-absorbed sometimes, but actually immigrant experiences in New York were probably quite similar.
Speaker 2:So yeah, but if Bradley Cooper had been cast and they'd put a fake schnoz on him, that would not be okay.
Speaker 3:No, no, that would be very wrong. Okay, even if they taught him the accent.
Speaker 2:Okay, this is his third candy bar. In case you weren't counting, he's four. A four-year-old shouldn't have to fast not to lose bar mitzvahs. When I was a boy, I fasted, and you know why I fasted? Because we had nothing. Every day was Yom Kippur. Moish, please, I'm atoning for the things I'd like to do to that man. I apologize.
Speaker 3:Bye, sweetheart, let it out.
Speaker 2:Anything else, you're just ashamed to admit, like in general.
Speaker 3:Outside of Australia. I'm ashamed to admit that I like eating vegemite for breakfast on us you don't have to be ashamed to that or yeah, crumpet no, I meant a crumpet, I don't know why. Okay, with butter. That's one of the things that I've assimilated into as an australian um wannabe.
Speaker 1:So going to buy some Vegemite when I come to Australia and stock up on it, yeah, Well, listeners to this show will give all the dates and all the information about your events coming up in Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra next month, just after the Hagim People are also instructed to make sure that if they do go to those events, you're to give your vegemite hand it over to.
Speaker 2:Elhanan, the ones in the tube are travel friendly. Just a little pro tip, Elhanan Miller. Thank you so much for joining us at A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Tammy and thanks Dash, and I hope to see all my friends in Australia very soon.
Speaker 1:We'll see you soon, Elhanan. Thank you.
Speaker 2:That was our chat with Elhanan Miller.
Speaker 1:And if you'd like to see Elhanan while he's in Australia, you can catch him at three live events in Melbourne on the 9th of October, in Canberra on the 10th of October and in Sydney on the 13th of October. All the details, including tickets, can be found at our website, thejewishindependentcomau. Head to the events tab and you'll find all the details. You need to get along and see him speak and we'll put the details in the show notes.
Speaker 2:That blowfly in my studio. I should have pretended that it was a bee so I could have reincorporated the Rosh Hashanah theme.
Speaker 1:Ah, the honey theme yes.
Speaker 2:What a devastatingly missed opportunity.
Speaker 1:That's it for today. You've been listening to A Shame to Admit, with Tammy Swissman and me, dash Lawrence. This is a TJR podcast.
Speaker 2:This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King, with music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1:Our episode this week was made possible by the support of our sponsors, Peter and Sharon Ivany of Ivany Investment Group.
Speaker 2:Links to the TJI. Articles relevant to the issues discussed today are also in the show notes.
Speaker 1:If you like the podcast, leave a positive review, tell your people, encourage your mates with that excellent business to be our sponsor.
Speaker 2:And you can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the contact form on the Jewish Independent website or email ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 1:As always, thanks for your support. Look out for us next Tuesday and Chag Sameach.
Speaker 2:Good one, chag Sameach yes.
Speaker 1:Chag Sameach.
Speaker 2:I'm Israel Chai and Chag Sameach. Yes, chag Sameach. I'm Israel Chai and Chag Sameach. Thank you.