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"Kraftwerk are more influential than The Beatles." But is that true?

June 01, 2024 Ian Forth
"Kraftwerk are more influential than The Beatles." But is that true?
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Vinyl Maelstrom
"Kraftwerk are more influential than The Beatles." But is that true?
Jun 01, 2024
Ian Forth

Tim Sommer in LA Weekly sums up the debate: 

“It is not just that Kraftwerk invented the future of music; it is that a startling amount of the music you hear today, from the most obscure indie rock to the most mainstream pop to literally everything in between, bears the impression of their invention.

Until the moment “Autobahn” hit the airwaves in the autumn of 1974, nothing like it had ever existed. Kraftwerk placed cheerfully familiar pop modes within an entirely synthetic and rhythmic framework. Today, the idea of synthetic pop is so common that it seems odd to consider that one single artist indisputably did it first; but that’s the case. 

None of this is meant to diminish The Beatles' leviathan achievements; it’s just to say that although the pop century has been dominated by the goliath shadow of Mount Beatle, they are no longer the most influential pop band in the Western world. Kraftwerk are.”

Is he right? And what exactly were The Beatles' "leviathan achievements"? Join me to discuss who really is the most influential group in musical history.


Be expertly briefed each week on a wide variety of intriguing musical topics.

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Tim Sommer in LA Weekly sums up the debate: 

“It is not just that Kraftwerk invented the future of music; it is that a startling amount of the music you hear today, from the most obscure indie rock to the most mainstream pop to literally everything in between, bears the impression of their invention.

Until the moment “Autobahn” hit the airwaves in the autumn of 1974, nothing like it had ever existed. Kraftwerk placed cheerfully familiar pop modes within an entirely synthetic and rhythmic framework. Today, the idea of synthetic pop is so common that it seems odd to consider that one single artist indisputably did it first; but that’s the case. 

None of this is meant to diminish The Beatles' leviathan achievements; it’s just to say that although the pop century has been dominated by the goliath shadow of Mount Beatle, they are no longer the most influential pop band in the Western world. Kraftwerk are.”

Is he right? And what exactly were The Beatles' "leviathan achievements"? Join me to discuss who really is the most influential group in musical history.


Be expertly briefed each week on a wide variety of intriguing musical topics.

“Kraftwerk were more influential than The Beatles.” Is that actually true?

“It is not just that Kraftwerk invented the future of music; it is that a startling amount of the music you hear today, from the most obscure indie rock to the most mainstream pop to literally everything in between, bears the impression of their invention.

Until the moment “Autobahn” hit the airwaves in the autumn of 1974, nothing like it had ever existed. Kraftwerk placed cheerfully familiar pop modes within an entirely synthetic and rhythmic framework. Today, the idea of synthetic pop is so common that it seems odd to consider that one single artist indisputably did it first; but that’s the case.

All synthetic pop, each and every occurrence of a synthetic drum or synthetic bass pulse in a song, can be traced back to one freaking group. It’s like finding out that Adam and Eve really existed.
Every synthetically thumping rhythm section you have heard since then — and think of how many you hear, every single day — can be traced, without fail, to Kraftwerk’s amazing innovation.

None of this is meant to diminish The Beatles' leviathan achievements; it’s just to say that although the pop century has been dominated by the goliath shadow of Mount Beatle, they are no longer the most influential pop band in the Western world. Kraftwerk are.”


Not my words, but the words of Tim Sommer in LA Weekly in 2017.

Is he exaggerating or does his verdict hold water? Who’s more influential – The Dusseldorf Duo or the Mersey Moptops?

It’s time to take a medium-sized dive.

The Medium-Sized Dive

Let’s start with Kraftwerk who take their name from the German word for a power plant. They’re an electronic band formed in Dusseldorf  in 1970 by Ralf Hutter and Florian Schneider and were originally part of the country’s experimental so-called “krautrock” scene. Since the band's formation, it’s seen numerous lineup changes, with Hütter as its only constant member. Florian Schneider died in April 2020.

On albums such as Autobahn (1974), Trans-Europe Express (1977), The Man-Machine (1978), Computer World (1981) and Tour de France Soundtracks (1981), Kraftwerk developed a motorik style that combined electronic music with pop melodies, sparse arrangements and repetitive rhythms, while adopting a stylized image including matching suits. The band continues to tour, indeed I saw them with my friend Mark at the end of last year in one of Melbourne’s soulless arenas – which actually suited them very well.

NME wrote: "The Beatles and Kraftwerk' may not have the ring of 'the Beatles and the Stones', but nonetheless, these are the two most important bands in music history". 

So, in we go to an entirely reasonable discussion.

The Entirely Reasonable Discussion

Now you might say – well, there was electronic and dance music before Kraftwerk, so how can we be sure that it was Kraftwerk doing the influencing?

It’s absolutely the case that there was electronic music before Kraftwerk. There was musique concrete in the 1940s; John Cage and co in the States at the same time; Stockhausen in 1950s Cologne; as we discovered in the last episode about movie soundtracks, the score for Forbidden Planet in 1956; Delia Derbyshire and the BBC Radiophonic workshop in the early ‘60s, alongside other computer-generated music. And by the end of the ‘60s, The Doors had a synthesiser on Strange Days and The Beatles introduced a synth on Here Comes The Sun. And there’s no doubt that Jamaican dub music of the ‘60s and ‘70s has had a profound effect on the electronic music that we still enjoy today.

So - what was so different about Kraftwerk?

The Sum of Their Influences

1977 was, as you may know, the year of punk rock. But in the same year David Bowie released a song called V2-Schneider as a tribute to Kraftwerk’s founder. Bowie’s pal Brian Eno was also influenced by Kraftwerk that year as was Giorgio Moroder, who produced the Number One I Feel Love by Donna Summer - spacious, trippy, relentless and unending. It in turn helped create techno music and the modern club scene. Meanwhile in Detroit techno pioneers like Juan Atkins, Derrick May, and Kevin Saunderson were happy to acknowledge the inspiration from "Autobahn" and "Trans-Europe Express."

Over the next few years, Kraftwerk's use of synthesizers, drum machines, and sequencers laid the groundwork for Moroder-produced music such as Sparks’ Number One Song In Heaven, but also the new genre of synthpop. Listen to Just Can’t Get Enough by Depeche Mode, Don’t You Want Me by The Human League or the biggest-selling 12-inch of all time, New Order’s Blue Monday, and you’ll hear the idea that Kraftwerk came up with. They themselves had a #1 with The Model in 1981.

Before we leave dance music, let’s talk about what used to be called “House Music”. (Is it still?). Early Chicago house producers like Frankie Knuckles and Larry Heard were influenced by Kraftwerk's repetitive, danceable beats. More recently, the genre of Electronic Dance Music can trace a lineage directly back to Kraftwerk. Modern EDM producers and DJs, such as Daft Punk and Deadmau5, often acknowledge Kraftwerk’s pioneering role in electronic music production.

Then there’s hip-hop. Afrika Bambaataa, now accused of appalling behaviour, produced the seminal track "Planet Rock" in the mid-80s which sampled Kraftwerk’s "Trans-Europe Express" and "Numbers," Subsequently the use of drum machines and electronic rhythms by Kraftwerk has influenced innumerable hip-hop producers in their beat-making techniques.

A completely different genre influenced by the band was the open-minded musicians of post-punk. Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Associates, early Simple Minds and many others were drawn to the band’s mechanical rhythms, as were groups in the adjacent genre of industrial music, like Throbbing Gristle and Nine Inch Nails. Aphex Twin and Autechre have cited Kraftwerk’s experimental approach to sound as an influence on their ambient works.

Further down the track, Madonna and Lady Gaga have acknowledged Kraftwerk’s influence on their electronic elements and visual presentation. That last point’s significant as Kraftwerk were arguably the first to fully integrate their music and visuals into an artistic synthesis. The Germans have a word for this, you may not be surprised to hear. Gesamtkunstwerk.

Listen to any pop music station, visit any gym and you can’t escape that beat and that sound. Can the Beatles match them for influence?

What was The Beatles’ Influence?

Go to a football match and you’ll hear the crowd still singing their versions of Hey Jude and Yellow Submarine. Take a holiday anywhere in the world and see if you can find someone who hasn’t heard of The Beatles. Is there another band that is universally identifiable from their first names alone? No, there isn’t. Only one in a hundred can tell you who’s in Kraftwerk.

But fame is not the same thing as influence. We’ve heard the case for Kraftwerk, but do today’s artists still owe anything to what The Beatles pioneered?

The first thing to say is The Beatles made it OK to experiment.  Yesterday, Strawberry Fields Forever, Helter Skelter and Within You, Without You sound nothing like each other, whereas it’s obvious what the Kraftwerk sound is. The bewildering variety of songs by The Beatles legitimised a band’s right not to stick to the formula. Then consider the following:-

They reimagined recording techniques. Between 1966 and 1969, not touring and stuck inside the studio, alongside producer George Martin and engineer Geoff Emerick they pioneered looping, flanging, tape manipulation and backmasking amidst much else - all techniques which we take for granted as standard tools in the modern producer’s kitbag. Moreover, it was an analogue world back then – tapes were literally cut and spliced.

Then they changed the concept of what an album actually is. Prior to the Beatles, most albums would contain a few bankable singles with the rest as filler, frequently covers, and they were recorded more or less live in the studio to save time. The Beatles quickly arrived at no-filler albums where every track was their own composition, thanks largely to the extraordinary work ethic and talent of Lennon and McCartney. And then once they stopped touring, they had the license to create a sound that was not reproducible on stage and instead became effectively the world’s first studio band. It’s now the norm for pop and rock bands, at least, to write their own material, play it themselves and even deliver a concept, Sgt Pepper-style. 

Next, album covers. Artistic album had existed since the 30s, but it was The Beatles who spearheaded the evolution of the album cover to function as a marketing tool in its own right. Sgt Pepper and Abbey Road’s iconic covers meant that graphic design became inseparable from the music’s identity. And to underline the seriousness of the album as concept, all the lyrics are printed on the back of Sgt Pepper for you to fully engage with the album.

Then they were the godfathers of MTV with the films Help!, A Hard Day’s Night and the cartoon Yellow Submarine coupled with early videos for Paperback Writer, From Me To You, Penny Lane and Rain. They opened up collaborations with the world of film.

But, these factors, though important, are not enough per se to trump Kraftwerk’s claim to be more important than The Beatles. Above and beyond everything else, there are three huge reasons why The Beatles can justify the claim to be the most influential band of all time.

Recall the famous verdict from the Decca executive when he rejected The Beatles. “Guitar bands are on the way out”. Looking at some of the biggest selling artists from the year before The Beatles’ breakthrough hits in 1962, you can see his point. Kenny Ball’s Jazzmen, whistling Acker Bilk, Chubby Checker with his twist, pianist Russ Conway, comedians Bernard Cribbins and Rolf Harris, cabaret star Frank Ifield, family-friendly Cliff Richard and a newly sanitised Elvis. Basically, The Beatles changed music for good. Once rock’n’roll had come and largely gone, pop music was going nowhere at all. They revived it, at first almost singlehandedly.

Then they invented what we understand as a pop group. Sure, there’d been groups before. But not one like this. A funny, cheeky, relatable one synched with other changes that were dissolving the centuries-old hierarchies. “Those in the Royal box, rattle your jewellery” as John Lennon said at The Royal Variety performance. Michael Caine and David Bailey were making cockney geezers aspirational for the first time. The Beatles did the same for the industrial working class.

And that bleeds into the final point. Before the ‘60s, boys went to school, left it, started their apprenticeship and became a man. Women worked briefly and then became a housewife when they started a family. The new economic boom of the ‘60s allowed The Beatles to pioneer a credible youth culture to occupy the freedom years between puberty and marriage. Even more significantly, for the first time, arguably in history, The Beatles meant that young people were  taken seriously. Just because they were young didn’t mean their opinions were any less valid than those of a high court judge.

Summary

So, to sum up, the Kraftwerk sound can be heard everywhere, more so than any other group, in 2024 as a result of their invention of synthetic pop music. They directly influenced techno, hip hop, house and rap music, but also post punk and industrial music as well. Their legacy is inescapable.

It may not be so easy to hear The Beatles sound in 2024. But they did pioneer experimentation, how music is recorded, the modern concept of an album, what its artwork looks like and the music videos that support it. Beyond all that, they revived pop music when it was dying, defined the concept of a modern pop group and created a culture where youth has a legitimate and valid voice.

The final verdict comes down to whether you see the question in purely musical terms, in which case, yes, Kraftwerk have been more influential. But in terms of creating pop culture as we understand it, then for me it remains The Beatles.










Introduction
The Medium Sized Dive: Who are Kraftwerk?
The Case for Kraftwerk
The Case for The Beatles
Summing up the Whole Case and a Conclusion