To find out more about the wonderful world of AF/NA Beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
To find out more about the wonderful world of AF/NA Beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club
This episode is not brought to you by any sponsors because nobody wants to sponsor me.
Welcome to the Sober Boozers Club podcast, a place where we can talk openly and honestly about addiction, sobriety and, strangely enough, beer. I'm Ben, I'm an alcoholic and for the last two years, I've been sampling some of the finest alcohol-free beers the world has to offer. Each week, I'll be joined by a different guest to discuss their own lived experiences on all things related to the world of low and no alcohol beverages. So pour yourself a tipple, relax and let me welcome you to the Sober Boozers Club. On today's episode, I'm joined by Alex Loveday, who is one of the founders of Mashgang. Now, mashgang are a legendary provider of alcohol-free beers, and if you haven't heard of them, then where even are you? And this conversation takes a more serious turn than one would have expected, where we kind of talk about the struggles of setting up a business during lockdown and the difficulties in becoming what is essentially a household name for alcoholics like me. So let's have a listen and see how we get on. Oh my god, did you hear that?
Speaker 2:Recording in progress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, AI is taking over, so hello.
Speaker 2:Hello mate, Thank you for having me on potentially your first dipping the toes into the podcasting world, which is the same for me. I think this is the first one I've ever done too.
Speaker 1:Oh, really, that's a surprise. Actually, as famous as I am, I can think of no one better to dip toes with than yourself.
Speaker 2:I mean that can be a start, can't it?
Speaker 1:You've done a bit of running, haven't you?
Speaker 2:Hey, honestly, I've stopped the running recently, but it was a real passion and obsession of mine and, yeah, I went through a bit of a start of this year of going for it and thinking that I can run half marathons really quickly. And it turns out I did it, I completed it, but I nearly died, and that's not just an exaggeration.
Speaker 1:I really did crawl over the line but yeah, no've, I'm somewhat of what I would call a runner well so so tell me, tell me about how that kind of started for you, because there was a bit of a medical incident. Yeah, so in your younger years yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah. When I was 17, I basically, um, I used to skate a lot. So you can kind of guess from the whole of the MASHCAN kind of background it's all very skate focused and heavy metal music focused and that all comes from a love of what we all used to do and miss doing now. So I used to. When I was 17, I used to skate quite a lot and you couldn't write it really.
Speaker 2:The skate park I was waiting for to open for about a year opened and the day I went down I was just skating down I basically tripped on a stone on a curb and I smacked my back on the curb. Ouch, and when you're that age and you skate a lot, you're kind of made of fairy dust. So I picked myself back up and thought nothing of it and started getting chest pains and really strange, nothing of it and started getting chest pains and really strange and I just carried on skating to the skate park and, bit by bit, like like a, like a real stroke in your brain, I started losing sort of function of my leg and, oh man, really bad chest pains and I thought this is this is this is not good. So, um, being 17, I went back to my own dad and cried and called mum and said I really don't feel very well. And she came back home and we went to the doctors and he said I think you've trapped a nerve, which makes sense. I thought, okay, I feel a bit numb everywhere. It's a bit strange, like it's definitely that, like it can't be anything worse, and, uh, went back home, laid down for seven hours which is probably the worst thing you can do when you're having a stroke and went to get back up and just couldn't walk at all. Oh my God, yeah, I mean, that's a very short version of the story. Two months later they kind of worked out what was going on and said look, you've had a spinal stroke. These are really rare, but the consequence is pretty harsh. The chance of you walking is pretty low, and I think at the time it was um, there's one of those things when you're younger and you think, oh, you know, I'm gonna be fine, I'm gonna be fine, um, but it's harder, I think, for your family to to watch. I feel more sorry for them through that kind of scenario. So whenever anyone says to me oh, wow, you went through a lot of shit and stuff. I think when you're that age, you kind, yeah, it was tough and it was shit, but at the same time I think, looking back at it now I feel sorry, for I think my parents aged a few years, along with my brother, quite a few years on being 31.
Speaker 2:Now I kind of run out of hobbies. I haven't got any hobbies apart from mash gang. Mash gang has been a massive focus. I guess you can't really call it a hobby anymore, it's a business, as much as we enjoy doing it still, and um, my incredible fiancee, george, just said like, look, you, you can do it, you you can run.
Speaker 2:Um, and quite often, you know, going out on nights out or drinking especially, you know, my leg gets a lot weaker and I end up limping around. So no matter how much I gym or do weights on it, it doesn't seem to respond very well. So I just took, took up running and it was really hard at the start and I started getting better at it and enjoying it and noticing that my walking was getting better. So naturally it just became a bit of a positive hobby of mine.
Speaker 2:I think the whole process itself was a real eye opener to how far you can push your body and also how, how fucked your body can be doing something. You know, as I was doing it, I couldn't believe that. You know the feelings, that every part of me was just screaming to say stop. And you know, I genuinely say you know, I felt like I was going to die. It was to the point that my body was just like you're going to pass out in a minute and just collapse, um, but, that being said, got over the line. It was probably the best feeling for many years and getting that feeling of achievement and having a hobby back was quite emotional, to be honest.
Speaker 1:I can remember when you finished and you kind of messaged and it was like, did you die? And you said, you know, it got quite emotional at the end because it is a big thing, isn't it, when you've been through something like that, to then, all these years later, go okay, that wasn't on the card. For me and for your family, I suppose it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a big deal yeah, absolutely, and I think just my life's changed so much. You know, since, since um, having the accident, being in and out of relationships and being single and not being very happy, and it kind of there was two things linked together. You know, about to get married, my fiance was with me, supporting me in every part of it, which I've never really had out of a relationship and completing that was all a bit of a and obviously that you know taking a picture in front of the mash gang van, you know so much has changed. That it was was. It was the first time and we'll go into this probably later but even with our business, we're very numb to anything that good happens. We always focus on, you know, either fixing stuff or making stuff better, and you, you miss the big wins. So I think that was kind of like a weekend where I wasn't working. It all kind of was like my life's changed so much, and not not in a monetary way or anything like that, it's just so much richer in everything that I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you look at kind of the journey versus the destination. Um, yeah, and it's something that you, you mentioned quite a lot to me when, um, whenever we kind of do these little chats, um about you know the origins of mash gang and the people behind mash gang all coming from council houses, you know there's no investment in money initially, except for what came from your own pockets, which, in terms of a business, wasn't a massive amount no, no, it was really.
Speaker 2:It was really nothing and I think that's that's the thing. You know, we always strive to push the best out of what we do, because we had fuck all and we still have fuck all. Um, so we really had nothing. We really still do have nothing, you know, and everything we do is is really for people and it's not just a corny thing of saying it, and you know you've got these businesses that say you know, I made it, and then you've got rich money or, daddy, it really was. You know absolutely nothing and and it it comes through with everything that we do. And it's also very honest.
Speaker 2:When there's mistakes you know often the website's broken or this isn't working. That isn't working. The reason why is is because we haven't got 30 grand to drop on a good website. We will get there, but everything that we've built has been from from nothing, and the initial investment was was about £5,000, which was a hell of a lot of money for us, between a couple of friends, and we made it into what we're doing now, which is unheard of and incredible. And I think, because all these things happen and it's grown quite quickly for us, we forget to enjoy the successes of where we are, because unfortunately, with business it never stops. It's never an end goal, really it's. You've just got to find those moments in yourself. It might be, you know, and sitting down. It might be a weekend going for a run and doing a half marathon, that you sit there and say, wow, actually what I've achieved is really special. Um, so yeah, that's, that's that bit well it is.
Speaker 1:It is a creative industry, isn't it like it's? It's very similar to the music industry, um, kind of what you're doing, because you are constantly creating new things and I suppose there's a fine balance between like the art versus the, the corporate side of business growth. That's really difficult to to juggle, especially when it is such a small team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's difficult when you've got fans of the brand, for the right reasons as well. You know we have fans because you know we've done everything the way we've done it from the start, and that's why they're fans of us and we're so grateful for them. We wouldn't be here without our fans and the people that regularly buy from us or shout about us. So to do discredit to them by, you know, taking a load of investment and changing our model and saying, you know, actually we're we're going to do a lager and we're going to do it cheap and we're going to sell it into all the supermarkets, wouldn't be the right business decision, morally or probably financially, to be honest, and I think it's always important to to remember that and that you, every decision we make we have to really burden ourselves with. If we do this, is it going to have backlash? Is it going to upset people? You know is it. Is it going to propel us forward? So, yeah, it's definitely.
Speaker 1:You know a lot of things that go in our head when we're doing stuff so what was kind of, would you say it started as a passion project and then became something that you realized very quickly that people would be interested in. Was for a particular reason why you wanted to go down the kind of low and no route um, and in particular really so because you you target yourselves at the craft beer market and you know the proper craft breweries was for a reason that made you want to go for those people rather than kind of the sober community as a whole yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:To start off with, I think it was very divided to 50 50. I think jordan always had the dream he knew it was going to get to this point. He was absolutely obsessed with getting to this point and this idea. Nothing was too big for him. You know, he would have said two years ago we're going to be in America, we're going to be doing this, we're going to be doing that. And when we first started it was very much a non-option for him. It was I have to do a business and I have to make it work and this is what I want to do.
Speaker 2:For me and my brother James, it was very much a hobby and just an enjoyment of watching something grow that quickly changed to wow, this is actually something. So when we first started, we did our first run, we did a launch at BrewDog and we turned up and we thought nobody would turn up. But we've spent five grand on beer. Let's just see if we can have some people that turn up and they'll accuse out the door. And I think that was quickly a realization and a lot of those people that came to that are still customers now. That was a realization of wow, this is actually something, and I was working a full-time job at the time and that quickly became a focus of mine. I wasn't really enjoying where I was at, so MashBank was definitely the happy place, um. So, yeah, I think I think, with, with the idea, it never was an outset from the start to be like, right, we're going to create a business and this is what we're going to do, it was sort of it's lockdown. We want something to do. We're all smart guys, all beer idiots at the same time. We can do this, um, and, and it just grew from there. It grew rapidly, um, very quickly, which was also tough because there's no initial money there. So every run that we did of beer, we had to put any profit that we made it back into making more beer instead of wages, for example. We just grew it from there, um.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think that that was a, that was a point that it was kind of 50 50 split, and I think as we grew, we got taken on by the likes of northern monk under under their wing to kind of help us out, and we quickly realized that there's a gap in the market for craft low ABV, um, and true to craft, that is, you know the a lot of the mash ground guys, including myself, we drink full ABV beer and I think there was a gap in the market for people that drink to be educated on.
Speaker 2:No and low can be fun, it can be good, but there needs to be the right person doing it and with the right love, care and attention, and we could have easily have made full abv beers and low abv, but I think there's there's quite a lot to be said for somebody that specializes in in it and does as much work as what jordan does. On the r&d side of it, and I think you know we want to be adjacent to the craft shelf. You know if we were to go in supermarkets we'd want to be on the full ABV section. Yeah, because we don't see it as an ABV arms race. It is just a product. That's the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something that I really kind of resonated with me when I first got sober, because it's been just over two years for myself and I think the first three breweries that I came across with yourself um, low tide and sheep and wolf's clothing yeah um, and then you know, it was a new thing for me.
Speaker 1:I was exploring alcohol-free beers because I didn't think I'd ever get to enjoy a beer again, really, yeah, um, to the level that I used to. And then, reading your kind of your narrative and what you've just said there it's not an arms race it was like, okay, these guys understand where I'm coming from as a customer. Yeah, let's, you know, let's, let's delve into it a little bit more. And it's just grown and grown and grown. Um, it's only really been recently, but you're not kind of seeing beers sell out before you can sell them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely yeah, it's. Um, it's changed quite a bit recently.
Speaker 2:You know and I think going back to there's quite a personal thing, as you know from me why I get so passionate about the whole abv thing and we set out this company.
Speaker 2:Basically because you know, we thought it's just a fucking discredit to people that are sober that you get served what you do and the lack of care and attention from the macro breweries is an afterthought at best. You know, whether it be a marketing exercise, whether it be a tick box exercise, I'm extremely passionate that there could just be somebody out there that fucking puts some effort in and does it properly, um, and cares about it and loves it, and it's a discredit to the full abv breweries. You know, when some of these, some of the bits that we were trying before, it's like oh, palo, where fucking this is disgusting, like what. There must be a way, like there's always a way, albeit, you know, jordan has some wizardry in what he does, but there must, there must be somebody out there that can do this, and and we just decided to do it ourselves and variety is a massive thing, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, we could have started off with a lager and a pale ale, but instead we've released 70 different styles of beers and we continue to keep making more, because I think it's all well and good having your lager pale, but I think the excitement of anything is the discovery of something new, whether it be a, you know, pipey a, or unlucky charms, or chocolate vanilla stout, you know, if you're, if you are sober, that's quite an exciting place to be, because if you weren't sober, you've got all the options in the world.
Speaker 1:So why is there nothing out there?
Speaker 2:that has those options. And yeah, by hook or crook and financially we probably did ourselves over. We certainly put the R&D into making various different beers.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing, because now, if you look for alcohol-free breweries, google search, you're up there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the branding that you've built and not just the branding, but the customer base and the actual quality of the liquid is just getting better and better and better and better and better, and the last few that you've released have blown my mind it feels almost when I talk about mashgang beers it feels like I kind of have to pull my punches a little bit, because it is it. You know, I talk about you guys a lot. But there's a reason for that yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, we're not. We're not by any means. You know, um, we don't think well, so we don't think we're the best. It's not. It's not that at all, it's. We're very aware of what's going on around us and there are some really great breweries out there. You've got low tide, you've got can we be friends? You've got other um craft breweries that we've worked with in the past and taught them processes like northern monk or vocation or siren. You know, all these people are learning from us and we're learning from them too. And a lot of people say to me you know you guys are smashing it and you know there'll be somebody coming along soon. I said I fucking hope so, because it's very lonely doing this. You know and I know that sounds really arrogant, it's not lonely at the top yeah, I didn't really want to say that.
Speaker 1:I know, I know what you mean.
Speaker 2:I do know what you mean it sounds really arrogant, and you know it's all people's preference, isn't it? There's a lot of people that say they don't like ash green. That's great, but the thing is.
Speaker 1:You've been doing this since lockdown and that was you know before I stopped drinking. I can speak for a sober person who is desperately searching for more alcohol-free beers. In the last two years alone, the amount of new breweries that have popped up and the amount of new beers that are popping up, it's growing and growing and growing and growing and growing. But you guys have been doing this for years now. So I think it is fair to say that if you're not at the top, you're certainly there or thereabouts, and I don't think that's an egotistical thing to say.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely. It never was the aim to do that, you know, it was just to keep doing what we're doing and enjoying it. And I spoke to the guys from Can we Be Friends and they're really sweet, you know. They said you know, we started this, we looked on the back of what you guys are doing. It's really great. We want to kind of do what you're doing, and I just said you just got to stay true to who you are and just keep producing good stuff.
Speaker 2:Um, and don't get me wrong, there's some stuff that we've released, that this we've either had to bin or it's failed or it's not come out right, and that's unfortunately the the burden that you have with contract brewing. You know, it's not like we have our own kit in our own brewery where we can pull a tank sample before we release it. Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to release the beer and I try it last and I go. Actually, we could have done that one better. I think the beauty is now is, whatever we produce, jordan wants to do better and he's so self-critical and everything he does he will not stop until he's got the best product that he possibly can do. So it isn't the fact of. You know we've got stoop chug, all that and that's it. It's right they're, they're good, but we can do this better.
Speaker 1:How difficult is it to seem like you're doing very, very well? And I'm not making assumptions here, but this is. I'm comparing it to the music industry again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because growing up I had friends in bands that would go on world tours and support you know, really, really famous people, yeah, and you think, okay, you've made it. You know you're almost a household name and yet the lifestyle doesn't match that image. Yeah, how difficult is that when you have people think that you guys are, you know, a massive corporation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's really tough and we had some customer service I won't mention any names and we've done a live before where I've kind of mentioned this instance but it really hurt us as a team. I had a comment of oh, I can see you guys are focusing on the us now you're obviously not concentrating on the uk and there was no kind of context behind that at all, apart from, I think, late delivery from dpd, which obviously isn't our fault. But anyway, that really hurt us because I think as a team, as you grow, you're obviously're obviously going to gather people that don't like what you're doing or you're widening the net of people that are discovering you. So let's say, we went into supermarkets that would then widen the net with what I call a downer and it would be all alcohol through no fucking point mate, and then they would post that on the internet. I think as you get bigger and as you grow, you'll always get people who are naysayers, and I totally get it.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of people that grow and deserve that, because their origins of their business aren't quite true to what they're doing. It doesn't quite match what they're saying, but we genuinely did come from nothing and we've got to here and by no means it's successful. You know, we've just opened up the US. Us, it's a lot of financial burden on us and we're doing that because of demand, not because of we can make loads of money out of this. We're doing it because there's other businesses out there that were exporting our beers and and spending hundreds of pounds on packaging to get them over there and we thought, well, there must be a better way for christina and her bottle shop to sell more at more of a profit.
Speaker 2:And again, it's who you know. We've made lots of friends along the way and and thankfully you know, they've helped us out, and we've had friends in america that said actually, you can go with us and we'll start brewing for you. Nice, yeah, I think. I think you know, as you grow, you get that, don't you? Um, by no means. I think the public hopefully don't see us in the light that we're a massive corporate company. We are growing, don't get me wrong, but there's still only four of us working there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so easy to forget that you know, it's kind of it does take over your entire life. I mean, I had this with George. I messaged him like I think it was this Saturday like, oh, are you free in the week to come and have a chat? And he was like I'm staying away from my diary, it's for weekend. I was like, oh, yeah, it's for weekend, isn't it? You forget that you guys aren't just entities that are always online and always available.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's been a real tough one for George as well, because his social presence is quite high on MASH Gang. I think people assume there's this free time. It really is To grow your business. You obviously have to be relentless at it, and I feel for Jordan and the whole team really including myself, to be honest because it does not stop. Yeah, especially with opening in the US. Now our days are getting a lot longer, but at the end of the day, we all came from nothing and we want to create something. So I think it's almost nice, being from a background where it is tough, to look and go actually like, yeah, this is tough but it is going to, there's going to be an end goal and it's going to be good one day. And if it never happens, that's, that's fine. But you know we are very much.
Speaker 1:We're still just four blokes doing our thing how does it feel without giving the kind of cliche it makes you feel humble? Um, how does it feel when you have people come to you that literally will say to you know, what you are doing has changed my life?
Speaker 2:I think scary yeah, it's, it's. It's scary and incredible at the same time. It gives you no better feeling. I went to Brighton last week on a night out and I saw a bottle shop in the train station. I said to my fiancée I'm just going to have a look just to check. And I walked in and I said, oh, it's good that you're stocking MASH game. And she said, oh, yeah, we get through loads of it.
Speaker 2:I walked in and I said, oh, it's good that you're stocking mash game. And he said, oh, yeah, we get through loads of it. And I said, oh, I'm one of the co-owners, nice to meet you. And he was like, oh my God, wow. And that wasn't a vanity thing. For me, it was more just to hear the bottle shops are doing well out there. It wasn't a case of me going in in and you're with your mates and you go like there is or even a friend's message saying you know, I've just been to the toilet and there's this flag in there and it's our flag, you know, yeah yeah, the weirdest place I found mash gang branding was in a like an American style slice shop, like pizza shop in worcester and um, where they keep like the the forks upstairs and all the knives and all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was like an old tin and they'd stuck a um, a chug label across it oh really okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's. That's the weirdest place I've ever seen a like an unsolicited mashgang tin. Yeah, you're right, you do see mashgang tins everywhere. Now, yeah, once you know that you're looking for them Exactly, they're everywhere and it's wild. I had my first ever Colt on tap. It would have been New Year's Eve, and being able to drink it from from the tap, like knowing you guys as well now, it was like I kind of I felt so proud yeah, thank you mate, and I think that is another like thing that your community that you've built, you know we're all in it for you guys as much as we're in it for ourselves when we enjoy the beer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we, we want you to do well, because you deserve to do well yeah, I think you know, I appreciate that and I think it's it's everything's.
Speaker 2:Everything's happened very fast but also very slow. You know to we have no money on marketing and we still don't. We've put all of our money that we've got recently back into more production. So I think marketing's hard. It's not like we can have posters everywhere. We can't, you know, do facebook ads every five seconds. And it is nice if it's organically done like that, if it's just a sticker that somebody's put on a side of a pot yeah, a flag into faces, you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's it's the best form of marketing. You know you haven't paid for it either. You've earned that. You know you've not only sold the can or the flag, but they've actually decided to present it as well. So that is the best feeling in the world. And as we grow, the boys did Furnace Fest in America, a huge hardcore festival, and to see our banners alongside Budweiser, liquid Death, mash Gang all on the main stage banners was a real surreal moment and that would cost companies thousands to do that. And we somehow managed to rock up and make the right friends and they just stick it on there anyway.
Speaker 1:I think that's where you come from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that point that you made with. People just want you to do well, and I think you know, at the end end of the day, the same with how we do customer service here if you're nice, it will come back around. You know, if there's something wrong with somebody's order, we'll just send them double again and not argue it because it's about cans and hands and it's about that community. It's not. It's not a money grabbing exercise and it really isn't.
Speaker 2:I'm not just saying that that sounds really cliche but it really isn't. Obviously it's a business we have to operate. But at the same time, if somebody's a decent bloke and he's like, oh, I had somebody knocked off their bike once and there was a kind of chug blessing that split, like of course I'm going to send him a pack. I mean he survived it, which is the main thing. But yeah, you know we hear these amazing stories and and 99 of the time you get decent customers just saying that this has been busted or dbds charming, you've had stuff chucked over the fence before yeah, yeah, um, but did I?
Speaker 1:did I send you the video? Was it on a story? But he literally like and it wasn't just a throw, it was like an overhead, he lunged yeah yeah, it was a, it was a good and I think I've got a few. I've got a few dents, but they were fine. Um, but again, that's. That's another thing that people don't understand with delivery drivers, but you know they don't work for you. Yeah, like yeah it's the delivery drivers do.
Speaker 2:You are not responsible for yeah, it's a real challenge for us, for some, for some customers. You know some, some people again not saying any names, but will be like oh, this is unacceptable. I've got my cans and they're a dent. I was going to give them as a present. It's like I'm going to get you out some fresh ones for a start, if they don't turn out perfect there's. You know, there's really not much I can do unless I personally deliver them to you. It is tough. I think that's one of the challenges with the beverage industry as a whole. You know, getting your packaging right, doing it in a cost-effective and conscious way, that you're doing the best for your product, but at the same time, sometimes you could wrap it a million times and you've got John the delivery driver who's just going to drop, kick it through the fucking door, and we've been um, I personally, you know, made videos just taking the piss out of that, because it gets to the point that what can you do?
Speaker 1:you know, yeah, you've just got to roll with it, haven't you? Yeah, like it's just one of those things. So what would you say, like, since I mean, there's going to be hundreds of them? But, from setup to present day, what have been the biggest difficulties?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest difficulties for us is doing stuff third party. So it's probably the easiest thing in terms of we can set up anywhere in the world fairly quickly and start producing beer. But it's also the biggest challenge. You know some breweries we set up with. They did our logistics for us and then we outgrow them. So we had to move quite quickly and in the course of a two year period I think, we moved logistics sites three times to get it right and we were with a partner that just wasn't working for us and people's packages weren't leaving on time. And now we found a really good one touch wood.
Speaker 2:But I think the biggest challenge is managing a team. You know, yes, there's four of us, but there's also a team of eight or nine people in the warehouse making up your packs and doing all of that. So you're not managing your own staff as such, but there's a lot of moving parts to do that. And I think the other challenge is just the fact there's four of us. You know you've got somebody to have to make the beer, somebody to have to manage all the website stuff, somebody to have to manage all the social media, custom service, sales, cash flow. The list goes on, I could keep going. So I think the biggest challenge is people and keeping the business lean, and and trying to do the best job you can at the same time, and and third party elements are tough.
Speaker 1:There's no easy feat yeah, because you've you've kind of you've got a system where you've basically got one person doing four, five, six people's jobs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely I think I feel sorry for chris blessing. You know, he's touring with barry tomorrow and then he comes back and he's required to do customer service, system stuff, sales. At the moment, where we are, we all work really tight as a team and it all kind of just flows. But don't get me wrong, there's stuff that's missed. You know, at the end of the day you'd be like, oh damn it. Yeah, I've got to do that, or that's just human right, and we are getting better with systems and luckily, james is very tech savvy. So there's, you know, we've got a system for everything now, um, even our customer service comes from a central portal, um, so yeah, I think every everything's a challenge.
Speaker 2:I think every as you grow, everything's new and we had a chat the other day and it's not going to get any easier. Even if we got to the size monster energy drink, the target's still going to get bigger. The problems are going to get bigger, if anything yeah, of course it's just got to get moving, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, you just got to get comfortable in, in being uncomfortable. I think that's it's a important thing and I think one of the the best things my brother ever said to me when I first started. His help isn't coming and that sounds like a real arsehole thing to say, but actually it was. Uh, it was a really good thing for somebody that's never done it before. You know, I I would call him and say I've got export paperwork and, being your bigger brother, you just call them and hope for the advice back. And he came back to me with that. He said, oh, help isn't coming and basically like hung up the phone and I thought, well, fucking, what an arsehole that's charming.
Speaker 2:And I went straight to georgia and had a moan and went oh, bloody hell, nobody's helping me. She actually looked to me and went look, help isn't coming. You just need to man up and get on with it, and it's probably the best bit of advice. You know that we we've got the internet around us right, so there's always a youtube video to show you how to do something yeah, yeah and I think because that's, that's another thing that we like.
Speaker 1:We just we see the liquid and we see the people that make the liquid and sell the liquid and that's kind of really, really condensing down what actually goes on in terms of running a beverage company yeah there's so many things like being a business owner for one. Yeah, like wouldn't even know where to begin no, and there and there's so much paperwork.
Speaker 2:You know I don't have to deal with it, luckily too much of it. But you know even setting up in the us and stuff for legal. You know I don't have to deal with it, luckily too much of it. But you know, even setting up in the us and stuff for legal, you know requirements, they're huge and that that's, you know, a month's worth of work just to set up, I think. I think somebody from the outside and rightly so would see us being this company that just makes bit of sales beers and takes all the profit and enjoys. It really isn't that. You know that there's costs everywhere and there's breweries really struggling out there and we can certainly see why now. You know everything is tight.
Speaker 2:It is tough out there, sales aren't as great as we expect and I think it's just you've got to look at where you can tighten up a bit and and just be smart. But I think that's where possibly it helps, with us being from a background where we've got nothing, so we're comfortable with kind of having nothing too. So any win's a win. If I could have a budget to have more people, then that would be the biggest headache off of my mind, but at the same time I enjoy it. I enjoy the chaos.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I bet there'd be a part of you that would be lost without it if it was to all suddenly go away or not. If you didn't have as much responsibility within the company as you do now, I bet it would be really, really difficult to let go of yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, we're always, you know, welcome, for we're always. We're all aware that there's going to be somebody out there better to do our job. You know, whether that be from james's level as a a CEO to mine doing sales directorship, you know there's definitely going to be a sales manager out there that's going to absolutely smash it better than I do. We're all very aware of that, which is quite nice as well. You know, if it grew and somebody came in and we had to go you know what actually this is for the better of our fans and the people that buy it then great, we'll do that. But for now, it's just good old us, I'm afraid.
Speaker 1:Another thing that I don't think is maybe talked about enough is obviously the narrative of your origins is set up during lockdown, which was great for coming up with an idea for a business and coming up with the very, very, very early prototypes, but in terms of actually launching a business in a post-lockdown economy, yeah that's like the worst time yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know, we didn't know how it was going to go. Um, I think it was a scary time. I was buying my first house with georgia and she was like, what are you doing? This is mad, um. But I think also, lockdown gave everyone well, not everyone, a lot of people the fuck it button option and I think, yeah, the spending, the evaluating what you're doing with your life you know we've gone through exactly your story, ben um, and I think it was such a shit time. Anything that you did that took you out of doing that was enjoyable, and by no means it's been easy. It hasn't. It's been really fucking tough. But you know what? It's been worth it. And I think lockdown was a good starter to logistic nightmares, to uncertainty, to all of that made every everyone who went through it and took something positive out of it, a bit stronger.
Speaker 1:On the other side, yeah, I think it's kind of like maybe maybe it's fair to say, maybe it's not, I'm sure you'll tell me but without the kind of lockdown fuck it button. You know, I mean, my lockdown fuck it button was let's get all the bags in and get get absolutely smashed every day, um, but you know, for you guys it could be fair to say that without lockdown and getting to that kind of state of mind, it would have just stayed a concept and not been like fuck it, I'm sick of this, let's do it, let's just I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think we would have done it. We wouldn't have had the time to even come together as a group of friends on a telegram chat to to have the ideas. Yeah, it wouldn't have even been a second thought. Um, we would have just continued drinking filet bivy beer or jordan being sober, and that would have been it. I think jordan's an extremely creative guy and he would have always have done something, but I think without each oven, none of this would have worked. And I'm not not saying that, you know, I couldn't have done it without James and Jordan. James and Jordan couldn't have done it without me, you know, just without everyone, it wouldn't have been what it is today. And yeah, absolutely Without lockdown, it wouldn't have happened, no doubt.
Speaker 1:Well, that's an incredibly beautiful story, yeah no doubt. Well, that's an incredibly beautiful story, yeah thank you, so aware that we're getting to our time limit although I don't really know what time limits are on these things because I'm new to it, so maybe there's an algorithm. I'm not sure. What would you like to happen in the future?
Speaker 2:In the future. I'd like to get to the point and this is just, you know, I think this is the team's vision, but mine as well I'd like to get to the point where we have really good distribution in the UK for Europe, which is happening. I would like America to be fully set up so people can just buy at ease in most states over there and Trenton, australia, to just be doing well. For me personally, there's no sort of end goal of where I'd like to get to. I just want to continue growing it and see how far we can go. Um, I want to see more options out there from other breweries, to be honest. So there's a bit more. You know, competition, would I say. It's to keep us all going and pushing forwards, which is happening. Um, but yeah, certainly to just get to the point where all of our systems are working properly, it's effortless for people to order it and it just be going out constantly to people, and that's that would be the dream right now as a short-term thing happy for dream for me as well.
Speaker 1:Is there anything that you think I have missed because I'm a shit interviewer?
Speaker 2:no, not at all, man. I feel like it's all been on me. To be honest, I'll have to do a separate one about you, but I guess it's your podcast, so yeah, people don't want to hear about me. It's like terry terry wogan over there doing his well, thank you for coming on. Thank you, mate it's been a very serious one. We usually fucking joke and yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I'm, uh, what I'm going for with this. Maybe I'm growing up finally have you considered?
Speaker 2:but no, I appreciate it, mate, and keep doing everything you're doing. Obviously I feel a bit guilty because you've asked me all the questions. I haven't asked you any. But, um, I really do appreciate you having us, or me, on board, and I'm sure you've got some of the other team that can give you a bit more of an interesting insight to stuff.
Speaker 1:This is just I think this, this sort of stuff, is. It's kind of what fascinates me. It's like, you know, when you're, when you're really invested in a product, you kind of want to know everything about it. You know, did you know that he had a stroke in his back when he was skating?
Speaker 1:oh, I did yeah, I know, I know him well enough to text him oh well, I went into a bar the other day and they had um cloud water on tap and it was like, oh, and any alcohol free on tap is just like. Oh, I feel like a real boy, yeah, um. But then the guy at the bar was like really excited about oh well, if you like that, you should try this. And it was stoop and I was literally just like I know them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was proper like yeah, yeah, yeah, mash can get up in there. Yeah, no, no, I'm all no, I'm personally got one of them yeah, no, I appreciate all the support and you.
Speaker 2:You know this. This journey's been absolutely mad and without people like yourselves and and all of our fans, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing, and doing it ultimately just as a job of our fans. We wouldn't be doing what we're doing and doing it ultimately just as a job that got got us all out of doing shit, jobs that we hate doing. So you know from from the bottom of my heart. You know people might see it as being a successful business and stuff like that. It, it. We wouldn't be where we are without where we started, and we're all very aware of that as well. So I appreciate just doing bits like this and talking about it again.
Speaker 1:Well, keep doing it please, because otherwise I'm fucked.
Speaker 2:We've got more stuff coming out. Don't worry, I'm sure you do. It's relentless.
Speaker 1:I can't keep up with Jordan, yeah we don't think anyone could keep up with Jordan.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I struggle, I struggle, but we love him at the same time.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, lots of love to you and thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, Enjoy your week and hopefully the podcasting goes well.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Sober Boozers Club podcast. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me at Sober Boozers Club on the Instagram For more information about Mash Gang. Then go to their website and have a look at the beers. They also offer an exclusive subscription service where you will get an array of gorgeous liquid every single month. So get on that if you haven't already. But for now, thank you very much for listening. I'll see you very soon and I really hope you have a lovely lunch when you next have lunch.