Raising a laugh sharing insight: A dive into the world of non alcoholic brewing with Jordan from Mash Gang

When laughter and lessons collide, you get a unique peek behind the curtain of the low and no alcohol beverage industry with my guest, Jordan from Mash Gang. This week on the Sober Boozers Club podcast, we share candid tales from the trenches of business, revealing the often-overlooked chaos of delivery mishaps and the delicate dance of balancing cost against quality packaging. Jordan's wisdom illuminates the hidden costs that shock consumers and the importance of sturdy containers in protecting our precious cargo – all with a dose of humor over the absurdities of their trade.
 
 Navigating the choppy waters of addiction and recovery is no small feat, and this episode doesn't shy away from the darker currents. From the email disaster that wreaked havoc on our inboxes to the experience of battling nicotine's tight grip, we offer a raw, unfiltered glimpse into the reality of recovery. The conversation shifts from the serious to the silly, with anecdotes that span the spectrum from cultural brew quirks to the whimsical (and pretty dark) world of Fanta, all while exploring the personal boundaries we set and sometimes struggle to maintain.
 
 Finishing off with a toast to collaboration and innovation, we discuss the future of alcohol-free brewing and the quest for the ultimate non-alcoholic brew. Reflecting on the recent leaps in quality, we raise a glass to the relentless pursuit of the perfect sober sip. Gratitude is the undercurrent of this episode as we acknowledge the grind and the glory of hard work, giving a special nod to Jord for his contributions to the community. So join us, pour a drink (alcohol-free, of course), and let's raise a chuckle, share a sigh, and celebrate the journey of the sober boozers among us.
 
 Mash Gang are one of the most recognised brands in the AF/NA beverage industry. To find out more about Mash Gang and to get yourself some life changing beer head over to: https://mashgang.com/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Sober Boozers Club podcast, a place where we can talk openly and honestly about addiction, sobriety and, strangely enough, beer. I'm Ben, I'm an alcoholic and for the last two years I've been sampling some of the finest alcohol-free beers the world has to offer. Each week, I'll be joined by a different guest to discuss their own lived experiences on all things related to the world of low and no alcohol beverages. So pour yourself a tipple, relax and let me welcome you to the Sober Boozers Club. In today's episode it's a MASH gang doubleheader, and that can mean only one thing. In fact, I'm pretty sure it would be illegal for me to have a sobriety and beverage podcast without inviting this man on as a guest.

Speaker 1: 0:44

He's a multi award-winning beverage specialist. He's the CPO and co-founder of Mash Gang. He does have a last name, but if I told you it I'd have to kill you. It's Jordan. Now, this could have been a beautiful story into Jordan's journey into the world of low and no beverages. It's not that. Instead, it's an hour inside Jordan's brain, which I'd say is better. So I hope you enjoy. You've not been very busy, have you recently. You've had a lot of leisure time.

Speaker 2: 1:11

No, it's been the most relaxing time of my life. I have so much recreation, I'm wealthy and well-rested and I don't need a holiday.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Do you know I had to have a chat to myself recently because the amount of times that I'll just message you and be like, hey man, and then I forget that like it's a weekend or it's a bank holiday and I have to be like, no, come on, calm down, leave them alone. Like I had a um, an order issue that was DPD um recently, shoe that was dpd um recently, and they just decided to fucking send the parcel.

Speaker 2: 1:48

no one, no one understands, right that not dpd don't do this bit, right, right, but that there is no, there is no secret menu, but for, despite, like there is no one you can talk to client side that can do any more for you, and I'm so surprised as a customer that that's the truth, you know. But basically UPS in the States have got to the point now where they're actively rude about it and it says on their website there is nothing that we can tell you that isn't shown on the tracking already.

Speaker 2: 2:23

And I'm like wow, like wow, okay that's wild you know we're at that point of late stage capitalism now where it's like, hey you, fuck you, you can't do anything. Hey pig, hey me, then fuck off. You know it's unreal. Like service is gone. You know the days of customer service are gone.

Speaker 1: 2:47

I was trying to figure out what happened to it and it was just like oh, requested return. I was like I fucking didn't.

Speaker 2: 2:53

Nine times out of ten, if your package is getting returned, it's because someone's damaged it, and what I try and explain is that 12 beers weighs about seven and a half kilos right.

Speaker 2: 3:09

So, it's like just over seven bags of sugar. And even if you had a metal box, that you put it in a carbon fiber box, you know, and you drop it on the corner like it's it's breaking. You drop it on the corner like it's it's breaking like it's. It's lucky that we have less than I think it's 0.3 breakage rate across the whole thing. It's magic if you think about it. Most of the time things get there.

Speaker 2: 3:36

The other thing is that that a good box. So if you go and look, if you're a real nerd like I am, go and look up whale pods in in the States and they're a box and it basically holds a 12 pack in the size of a 24 pack, but it individually holds in foam each can. But the thing is, is that packaging and all of that that costs money? So in a world where everyone would like continually lower prices because the customers never asked for a product to be cheaper, you know postage and packaging already is looked upon as a con to people that I but other places do. Free packaging it's like free postage, it's like they don't just put the price.

Speaker 1: 4:18

Yeah, you're just paying for it. Somewhere else You're paying for it somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 4:22

It's like the DFS sale, you know never ending never ending dfs sale, you know, and it's it's like, um, don't even even those, you can still get damages and you've got at the end of the day. There's some poor dude that has like 6 000 packages in his van and he has like three seconds to deliver every single one of them and the one that we're sending happens to weigh you know, quite a lot. And then you know, of course they're not going to calmly and nicely put things down in the back of the van and I have to live in some kind of reality and make peace with it that you know things do get mistreated. You know there's stuff we see in customer services because you know the business is growing, but we still have eyes on every day, at everything and the photos. You get one one dude that just had.

Speaker 2: 5:14

Well, these are my dpd top top three, you know. Number three is where someone had thrown it over the fence, like, and it had like hit itself on the corner on the patio so it exploded like a bomb, like you know, and he had thrown this package around 15 meters over a fence so he'd almost landed it next to the sliding patio door. Number two is the customer that opened the package and the package was full of paint, but not paint in tins as in it, and they removed the can and it was our branded box, but just full of paint, um which, which was still got delivered by the way, leaking paint out of it Like they. Uh, then there was my personal favorite. My personal favorite was someone received two cans out of their order but then ice cream mix from pan and ice and, being a mash gang customer, they just fucking made ice cream out of their beer.

Speaker 1: 6:35

No, that's fucking outrageous.

Speaker 2: 6:38

These are all real things. Also that the the customer themselves is cursed like things happen to them that are weird the whole time. Less of a customer, more of a friend now, because that kind of thing bonds you like glue. That was my favorite. We get some stuff. We obviously get photographs of when the product is delivered. It's like is this your doorstep? Yes, is that you standing there? You know we get some stuff like we obviously get photographs of when the product's delivered. It's like is this your doorstep? Yes, is that you standing there? Yes, but I haven't got it. Okay, I mean, unless someone stole it, like the second you were there, like I don't understand, but honestly you would. We have about the same amount of problems with couriers that we've ever had. It hasn't gone up with the size of the business growing, so objectively, it's got better.

Speaker 1: 7:32

Yeah, well, that's the thing I think. Do you get people that don't kind of realize that these aren't people that are working for you?

Speaker 2: 7:38

Yes, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: 7:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:42

I've, you know, things like it's out for delivery at the moment but I'm out. Can you just phone up the driver and say to deliver it later? Or to my mum's house, you know. But I get problems with couriers. I work remotely so I have to send, like Fierce, send me samples like every week of stuff that's in tank and that, and the postcode I live in is so vast that if I walked from one end of the postcode to the other it would take me nearly three hours to get there. So so there and back could take about six hours. Right, and a delivery went to. It went so far that it was in like at the actual edge of the county and was like nearer to my mother-in-law's house, like. So she just went and got it because they just guessed a different address, like the postcode was right but everything else was completely different.

Speaker 2: 8:36

So I get choreo issues like everyone and they. It frustrates me greatly because you know there's. I kind of feel like eventually you're just going to get pushed into the amazonification of everything. It's like we just have to put everything through amazon because at least it just gets delivered and it. I'm just as bad for that sort of thing like the other. The other night I bought something like relatively ben. It was something like oh, it was Szechuan peppercorns for making Szechuan for Mapa tofu right, and I ordered them at 10 o'clock and then it got delivered 8 am the next day. I ordered them just before I went to sleep and then I got woken up by the guy delivering them and I was like this is peak capitalism.

Speaker 1: 9:22

Yeah, yeah, this is like there them. I was like this is peak capitalism.

Speaker 2: 9:26

Yeah, yeah, this is like there's no going back when you get no going back when you get to this point and I, I, I shouldn't dream of a day when someone thinks I'm gonna get some fucking mashgang beer tonight, like orders it, and it arrives the next day like in the morning, like that's a really sad dream of mine, but that's where I was going back to this um, this little narrative, with my missing dpd delivery.

Speaker 1: 9:48

I emailed customer service because I'm not going to message any of them because they're fucking relaxing. It's their evening. So emailed your customer service, um, and by the next day I had new, new beers. So it was very good. And that was around Easter.

Speaker 2: 10:09

I mean, our customer service guys were insane. They take everything personally and it's really unusual. Normally customer service is combative, isn't it? What have you done wrong? And their attitude is like like we sort it out first and then we sort the customer out first, and one of the core tenements is never make anything your customer's problem to solve, apart from the stupid password on the website the other day. I'm like can you just try this and this and this and this and tell me what works? But usually it's like this and this and this and tell me what works.

Speaker 2: 10:45

But usually it's like don't send the customer off on a side quest to solve your problem. Your job is to get the product to them. They've paid for it, they should get it. And the more companies that see it like that reverse engineer the solution later, make good, then go backwards and kind of put things back together and that's kind of how they operate sort it out and, in the worst case scenario, right. You know I don't want to be giving away free beer left, right and center, but I would rather that I accidentally sent someone too much than deliberately sent them too little and short, change them you know well, especially when your stuff's in fucking such demand.

Speaker 1: 11:24

Um, in fact, it's been a very good day for me today because omp5 have just put out um some d like trains and I literally, I don't know how they ended up like that's, that's alex and raul on some bullshit, isn't it like?

Speaker 2: 11:40

yeah, I, I saw that earlier.

Speaker 1: 11:42

I was like what I saw it and I put I think I put 25 in my basket and then just sat and looked at how much that was going to cost me and then slowly started reducing the number how much it cost me to make that.

Speaker 2: 11:57

That was so expensive it was like it was, so it was three and a half times more than it costs to make a beer normally that's wild it was really kind of shit, that people that drink it and they're like I'll do that all the time yeah, I I normally say like I normally say I would if I could, but it we worked out that if we sold it to a distributor, who sold it to a retailer, who sold it to a customer. So if you're looking like a abc style thing, so it goes to a distributor, then it goes to a pub, they sell it. It'll be 15.75 a can with normal margins and it's like oh, and I'm like bet, of course it is like it's so expensive to make.

Speaker 1: 12:42

I feel like that's just blown the whole. Like argument of alcohol free should be cheaper.

Speaker 2: 12:47

It's like no, it should be everyone should be doing the job proper. But, oh god, I there's like, there's like a handful of beers in my career that have been and they are they're some of the most popular. There was soft scoop we did with gypsy hill. That cost something like 10 pounds a liter to produce and we didn't work it out until it was already done and we costed it. We're like, well, we're all losing money on this. Oh, it was a really good beer. Uh, I I would say low lux with verdon, an absolutely catastrophic loss on that. But did we care? No, no one cared, because it got done, because it was trying to do the impossible, was trying to really dig uphill with things like that, and I didn't want to be the person that fucked up a verdant beer yeah, that would be.

Speaker 2: 13:32

I don't want to get a bed with that, um, you know it's so. Yeah, quit circling about the customer service guy. They really, they actually do care. It's not like some ai or some funny, you know, like voice and also they tend to ring people up funny, you know, like voice. No, no, no it really, and also they tend to ring people up. Do you know that they just ring people up and say like oh nice yeah, like, like if they have any problems, they just ring people.

Speaker 2: 13:52

They're just not shy about it and and I think I think people we don't, we don't spend any money on marketing, so we better have pretty good customer service yeah, that's the thing, like if you, if you're relying on word of mouth, and then you're all like that'd be a good word yeah, if you.

Speaker 1: 14:08

If you're, then just absolute bellends to deal with. It's not going to go very far, is it we?

Speaker 2: 14:12

mess stuff up. Sometimes you know like, like. You know, you know like. But I think people give you a little bit more patience if you demonstrably normally pretty good. Um, there's times when I've been short-tempered with people, but it's. It's normally like. Look my guy, I'm replying to you at nine o'clock on a sunday night. I'm obviously trying to fix it like.

Speaker 1: 14:34

So please just stop being really mean to me how many messages did you get when, um that weird email went out? You know the email um about subscription. Oh, how wild was that. Do you know what? They never came, so, so context, that weird email went out. You know the email about altering your subscription.

Speaker 2: 14:46

Oh shit, how wild was that. Do you know what? They never came so context An app we used to use in Shopify to manage subscriptions that we stopped using because it was shit. We un like we. We deleted it from the website. It was no longer part of the website. It never had access to anyone's details. It's really just a a bridge, you know, from our data to our data.

Speaker 2: 15:11

So the messages came from inside the house as well, which made it even worse, and it emailed everyone that had ever had a subscription with us or had placed a pre-order. It emailed them all on Was it a Saturday? It was like a Saturday night, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, it was Sunday. It was Sunday. It was a Sunday. And it emailed everyone who had ever placed a pre-order or had a subscription with basically, like we are readying your order, but you have this much to pay. We'll take it from the card.

Speaker 2: 15:41

And it was stuff we hadn't made in like two years. So the percentile of people that there was, a percent of people that were out on sunday night and drunk, that were like yeah, you fucking take my money, I'll take you to court. I bought nothing, you know. Then there was a percent of people of like this is obviously wrong because you haven't made this beer for a year. There was a percent of people of like you want't made this beer for a year. There was a percent of our people of like you want to check this out? This looks wrong. And there was a percent of our people that are like this is clearly hacking scam from Nigerian Prince. You can't take my money. I'm calling the police, you know.

Speaker 2: 16:17

And I was like, uh, what, what had happened as well? It was like typical. It was what, what had happened as well? It was like typical it was. It was like a weekend where we'd worked three weekends in a row and I gave alex, chris and james time off and I was having time off. I had sat down, like I cooked like one of those dr oka pizzas, which is like my reward, and I just got hell divers 2 on steam deck and a bottle of like mountain dew from the states and I had it like all lined up and my phone just started going dig, dig, dig and I looked down.

Speaker 1: 16:53

I was like oh man, and dr oka pizzas are the elite freezer pizza yeah, do you know he was a naz as well?

Speaker 2: 17:03

I just found that out. No, yeah, like, so, no, like they actually like. They renounced their, like you know, they renounced the company, the German company renounced it. Right, okay, otherwise, I don't think you know it's not like you. They don't do, they don't do like caroni, or like you know.

Speaker 1: 17:26

Like there you were, sat in your hugo boss suit with a bottle of fanta ready to enjoy.

Speaker 2: 17:28

I don't want people thinking I'm a neo-nazi, so whilst I tucked into my dr rocker pizza, my fanta in my hugo boss watching lenny riefenstahl's triumph of the will, like every sane non-Nazi person you know, I heard the alarm go off on my Volkswagen Beetle, so I've run out of knowledge about Nazi companies.

Speaker 1: 18:00

But no, that aside, Dr Oetker's pretty good.

Speaker 2: 18:03

But aside from that, yeah, you know, I think that I think that they actually like dealt. I think that they brought it up and dealt with it as well, like we uncovered this from my past, sort of thing. But I do love dr oka pizzas so much yeah, I do, I do.

Speaker 1: 18:21

It was actually when I um it was a staple in my freezer when I was like proper bottom-out alcoholic, do you?

Speaker 2: 18:30

know what, and it was. It wasn't for me because it was too expensive. I used to drink. I used to like drink so much of the 70p ones from asda, the ones with the holes in them like a jacobs cream cracker with a sneeze of cheese on top. A sneeze of cheese, a sneeze of cheese.

Speaker 2: 18:49

You've beat me then that was, oh yeah, 8p noodles when I man you were unlucky that you missed peak early 2000s alcoholism, you would have loved it. You know you would have loved it. You know you would have loved it. Two bottles of wine for a fiver love no you would have loved it.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Screw tops suave, so you would. You know what I? There's a lot of times when you know I think about you know people who have passed away. You know from that and I look at, like amy winehouse and I think she would have loved lost mary. She would have loved vapes, wouldn't she? She would have had a song about vapes oh yeah, 100, 100.

Speaker 2: 19:33

That's the one thing I'm still clinging on to is um, it's just vapes, and I know it's gonna probably be worse for me than everything that I've ever done oh, you know what it was when I was in drug rehabilitation, the people I felt sorry for were not alcoholics and heroin addicts or crack addicts or people were like abusing, like pain stuff or anything like that. The people I felt sorry for people who had like gambling and shopping addictions and stuff like that, like, but what they all had in common is that they were all scared to give up smoking. Like you know, you're talking to people who had, you know, gone like, had been in like smuggling rings and done heinous things in like like gang crime and stuff because of addiction and, and people who come from terrifying affluence had long lost millions of pounds at gambling on stuff. Yeah, yeah, but everyone was scared about giving up smoking yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1: 20:36

I don't think I could have done it at the same at the same time as stopping booze. If I'd have stopped fags at the same time, I think I'd died. It was just like.

Speaker 2: 20:48

I think people are hard on themselves. You probably succeed at it, but not at the cost of everything else.

Speaker 1: 20:56

Yeah, that's the thing. I was miserable enough.

Speaker 2: 21:00

I got really overweight when I stopped drinking. My sweet tooth endures. Like a decade later, my sweet tooth is still bad, yeah, mine's still up there.

Speaker 1: 21:14

Like I have to have a belgian bun every day otherwise, oh yeah, probably like you said.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Do you, do you like the outside of the belgian bun or do you like the sweet meat in the middle?

Speaker 1: 21:28

Oh, that's a difficult.

Speaker 2: 21:30

I just assemble it, you know.

Speaker 1: 21:32

Okay, okay, I don't like it when it's too dry so that suggests that I'm more of an innard kind of guy.

Speaker 2: 21:40

I'm actually to this point the same with pan or raisin. If you get the ones in the co-op or the spot, the serve-yourself ones, I always pick the ones that are not very cooked.

Speaker 1: 21:52

Yeah, I prefer a medium-rare pastry.

Speaker 2: 21:55

Yeah, I prefer a medium-rare pastry as a sign of either bisexuality or active addiction being pushed down. It's like if someone's autistic you don't need to send them to a psychiatrist. You just ask if they like trains, and if they don't like trains you say do you like planes? And if they don't like that, see how many Pokemon cards or other interests they have. You can skip the whole thing. Everyone in MASH gang really fucking likes trains. Dude, Like, really likes trains and planes. Like, really likes trains and planes and any high-volume people transport, it says.

Speaker 1: 22:30

But most people that have gone through addictions kind of are on. Yeah, they all tend to really like, like you say, one of the two trains or planes or maybe boats.

Speaker 2: 22:41

Or boats, yeah, or like there's a lot of like. I would say that the alcoholism and drug addiction are symptomatic of a like I think, for for me, a load of it was like self-medicating to fit into the real world, right, and it's like when you get older and when you're kind of in, let I don't like saying sobriety or anything, because it's not really true, because everything like I like say that and then I'll have like a beer, or I have like fucking eight coffees in the day and like, glad I'm sober, me like ripping on a phc, the devil's flash drive, until it's blinking and going. I'm glad I'm sober now. Do you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, I think, like let's, let's say that we're just in the better place, you know. And it's like well, yeah, it's like, and I'm still there clawing around looking for the medium, rare fucking pad of raisin, you know, and it's, it's like you're in the better place and your other interests.

Speaker 2: 23:41

Just you know, and I think I think loads of people who have like addictions like that, there needs to be counseling about your your I talk to specifically about your good boy spending spiraling out of control. I would have spent this in the pub, so I'm buying myself a new sampler, I buy myself new guitar because I would have spent that much money. The thing is, when you're an addict, you have side quests that generate more revenue than your regular job yeah and you go without other things.

Speaker 2: 24:12

But when you but you I'm, I have to stop the good boy tax. You know like I can buy these shoes, because at least I'm not on crack anymore bloody like I anymore.

Speaker 1: 24:23

I feel like I'm being given a life lesson. Because literally today, when you messaged me to ask if I was free today, I was literally in Dunelm looking at curtain pullbacks. Just like ooh, this one's got a monkey on it. I don't need them.

Speaker 2: 24:43

I bought BMX today, oh okay, yeah, okay. I'm coming clean, although I did tell my wife that I was going to do it Okay.

Speaker 2: 24:55

Well, this is progress, so it's like not hiding that spending. It was on sale. That doesn't make it any better. It was money that I shouldn't have spent, but I bought it because I wanted it and I wanted it for more than three days, which is you know, it exists in your mind. Then it's more than three days. It's a tangible item. You're allowed to do it, but it was a good boy tap. There's no way I would have spent 150 pounds on even drugs and alcohol over a weekend, maybe.

Speaker 1: 25:23

I was about to just say no same.

Speaker 2: 25:24

And then I was like, yeah, capital one bag. Yeah, there's a 400 pound limit on a capital one card for taking money out of the cash point, because that's as much cocaine as you're allowed to buy every month on a capital one card.

Speaker 1: 25:42

I was just thinking, thinking how many beers in? I think at three pints in I'd be willing to get a little baggy between a few of us.

Speaker 2: 25:53

Six pints in. I'm not sharing, no fucking chance.

Speaker 1: 25:58

Ten pints in it's on me.

Speaker 2: 26:00

Ten pints. It's on me For real. I actually got offered drugs for the first time in a long time in in uh, in the city the other day and I was like wow, free drugs. That's bizarre, like that's never happened to me. You truly don't know what I'm like because because those free drugs are going to become my drugs really quickly if I, if you let me at those, and you know I'm like no, it's wild being able to just go like now, yeah, and then think, fuck well, personal, I only took a decade for personal growth. Damn, I thought it'd be better. I thought like it would be quicker than this yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Well, I do know how I'd say no, but I don't know how strong that voice would be now.

Speaker 2: 26:43

It's pretty loud, like it's really easy. Yeah, like honestly, like it's like as easy as you like something that someone taught me, like it's not, like you don't you never like rationalize things and it's like I don't, I'm not allowed to. You can say sorry, I can't do that because I'm not allowed to.

Speaker 2: 27:09

I don't let myself I'm blah blah, if you, if you like, I don't do that anymore, man, I'm like retired. Yeah, you know, it's like nah, come on, it's like nah, man, you, you, you knock yourself out quite so much for you. Go on, go ahead, go and do it now. If you want to do anything like, why don't you buy me a pizza, dr oka dr ox plane Dr. Ocker, dr Ocker, plane, that's plane.

Speaker 1: 27:25

Do you want a Hugo Bosch suit?

Speaker 2: 27:28

and some Vant.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Subtle hints to get people to go away.

Speaker 2: 27:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:31

What are you into? Volkswagen Vant Dr Ocker.

Speaker 2: 27:34

Dr Ocker marching music. Lenny Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Wheel Marching music. Marching music. But what are you doing this weekend? Burning books, marching music, marching music. But what are you doing this weekend? Burning books? Like what books? Uh, probably best not to go into that.

Speaker 2: 27:51

a lot of books lots of books and it's no, it's yeah. Uh, getting people to go away in bars, uh, mckenzie Maneuver easy, yeah, you just like when everyone's really drunk, you just say I'm going to go to the bar, going to go and get shots and get you guys a bag in, yeah. And then you go up to the bar when everyone's not looking you just, you did you go. Then the next day you ask him for 50 quid for the Coke you bought and they say I got you that round of shots, you're paying for breakfast. That's brilliant, because I bought the shots. Well, I'll let you off that 50 quid. What 50 quid? Oh, fucking hell, man, you've got to get yourself together, you're a real state.

Speaker 1: 28:33

These are the unexpected joys of being sober.

Speaker 2: 28:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Just being able to gaslight your friends into doing shit for you.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah, gaslight. You see everyone talks about the positives of sobriety. They don't talk about what it's like when you're a real piece of shit and you can weaponize it to be so narcissistic and spy on your friends my main reason for sobriety was just to defeat my enemies and to live longer than them my biggest enemy was drugs Jordan.

Speaker 2: 29:00

I had to defeat him. He was so powerful. Also, I had to retire from it. I worked at a professional level for almost 20 years. So you know you gotta you gotta let it go. You know you gotta know when to quit the game quit while you're on top while you're on top, they.

Speaker 2: 29:19

I stopped doing drugs because there was none left. I'd done all of them and basically got a letter from the president of Bolivia that said Mr Jordan, I'm afraid there is no more cocaine left. You have done all of the cocaine and the harvest has not been very good. So there's a short Thank you for your service.

Speaker 1: 29:41

It's a Hugo Boss suit.

Speaker 2: 29:42

It's a Hugo Boss suit with several medals on it, and don't ask why loads of Argentinians speak German. I am not doing a podcast without ruining it for you. I love that this has become. You ruined mine, I'm ruining yours.

Speaker 1: 29:59

Yeah, we're even now. We're even now. This is just a payoff.

Speaker 2: 30:02

No one's going to listen to a podcast. That's just everyone being nice to each other. It's ridiculous. No one likes that. No, jamie, pull up that video of the ape pulling someone's head off and ask me sign cows please, before I I do. You know, I I tell you what I have the most colossal urge for fan or I wish you hadn't said fanter, like like everyone goes on about pellegrino being like tory fanter. It'd be really good, better version of fanter. But you know what? The best version of fanter is the one we're not allowed in the uk, the really orange one. Have you seen it?

Speaker 1: 30:38

yeah, yeah, yeah, I had some in new york oh oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:42

So there's two types of fat. You get East in Europe as well. It's like super, super orange fan. It's like really. And then there's shock, to which it the labels upside down. It's luminous blue and taste of elderflower. Oh my God.

Speaker 1: 30:57

I would not put those two things together.

Speaker 2: 30:59

No, it was. I will find a picture of it later and send it over, and it will I. If I pronounced it wrong, everyone in eastern europe. I'm really sorry, but I am coming into bat for you guys. You got that right. Uh, also eastern european jinx. I like a pp and cockta, because pp and one's cock that sounds like a fantastic acoustic duo pp and cockpee and Cocteau.

Speaker 2: 31:24

Are you going to Scarborough Fair? No, yeah, pee-pee is like it's like Pellegrino. Actually it's like a nice orange drink. Cocteau is like Eastern European Coke, but it's kind of like, don't do that face when I say Eastern European Coke.

Speaker 1: 31:45

No, no, no, nothing. Never have I dabbled.

Speaker 2: 31:51

And it's kind of like a herbal. It tastes a cross between Angostura bitters and an off-brand Happy Shopper, coca-cola. So, as you can imagine, it's fantastic.

Speaker 1: 32:02

That's my kind of beverage.

Speaker 2: 32:03

It's really good. Um, yeah it, it actually. I think that if alcohol-free beer didn't exist and alcohol-free, I think that that particular beverage would be something I would drink that would be the drink that would be the drink of alcoholics yeah, the drink of alcoholics. That would be.

Speaker 1: 32:22

Yeah, it would you know, it would be, I think you know when you started like when you started, when you got into the kind of the beer industry was for any level of like anxiety in your brain for being around beer all the time could be super fucking trigger yeah, it's like, uh, take what fenomen used to call it when they were like doing the work on the atomic bomb.

Speaker 2: 32:46

It's like tickling the dragon's tail because it's kind of adjacent to it. And it's like I, I, you know, I'm at the like, I don't want to endanger myself too much and sometimes I do, you know, I, I'm pretty honest, but I do think it's like sail too close to the sun, like in that kind of thing. I guess I'm lucky that alcoholism isn't my problem. I'm I'm a drug addict, so it's as long as I stay away from that, you know it's. The thing is, alcohol is like a cascade.

Speaker 2: 33:17

If you end up getting really fucked up, that's when you want to do drugs because it takes away the inhibition of stuff. Like to want to do drugs because it takes away the inhibition of stuff, like to, you know, and it and I, I would say some people, my, my mom specifically hasn't, but some people age out of their addictions. In my opinion, like, if you have a lot going on, like and you have a kind of a naive addiction, like I have a big city addiction, like I live in, I'm not saying you couldn't find drugs in the country, that's ridiculous, but I have a lot to lose. I've got like a great business. A wife, kid rely on me, so there's a lot to lose.

Speaker 2: 33:54

When I was in active addiction, I had nothing to lose, so it was like I could be an absolute fucking gargantuan train wreck of a person and it only affected my shitty friendship with shitty people and my shitty life and myself and I just lose jobs and things like that. It didn't matter like, but now, like I don't think. Well, it's dangerous talk to say like I don't think that would happen now, but I wouldn't let that happen now, you know, yeah, I wouldn't you know it in yourself?

Speaker 1: 34:27

don't you like that, you kind of?

Speaker 2: 34:29

I've turned my my eye of sore on to like another obsession. You know like running a business takes up all of your time and it's it's obsessive and you never put it down. You drive people insane about it and it's that kind of thing. But the other, the other, the other thing is like addictions, like paving over a lot of cracks in my body, like like loads of accrued injuries mean that I was in pain quite a lot of the time and they never were properly rehabilitated. So it's like doing drugs and drinking alcohol is like dull down those like pains you know like, and then like other like more psychological pains and stuff you say you're anxious, like anxiety, like alcohol is really good for paving over anxiety.

Speaker 1: 35:19

You know I've never been more anxious as when I stopped drinking, I think I I think a lot of people as well, like like you.

Speaker 2: 35:26

You, I don't know if you flip, but I would flip, like I would be super anxious. Then I get drunk or de-drugged and I'd be like then I'd be so confident and annoying and I would say things to annoy people, like I'd be rude to them and stuff like that, and I think that that's that flip. It's just the. It's almost like the like the polar opposite, you. You have two people that are both insufferable one of them so shy and so anxious that they're annoying and one of them so overbearing and and stupid the you. I was just such a rotten person in addiction, just like, just so, so scared and so afraid that I had to put on this big suit of armor. But the suit of armor is like cum at the cost of it was just shaped like a colossal dickhead. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 36:21

yeah, yeah, no, absolutely like it.

Speaker 2: 36:23

I think when I stopped drinking that was the only time that I kind of had the clarity to then deal with all of the shit that was making me a real anxious, like insufferable person like I papered over the cracks to a degree, like, but then there's other like I'm so, like a decade on, like rehabilitation takes really long time to get in your head, like, and you can do like cbt and stuff like that and you can go to therapy and it works for some people, but me it just like it started with ownership and and the next stage was going back and trying to repair some of the damage. And the problem is the people that you try and repair the damage of has heard it all before and they're like yeah, you've said sorry before, you've done this. Some people, it's like they don't even want to be approached by you, like going back to an ex-partner and saying like I treated you really bad. They're like do not contact me again. It's like understood, have a nice day. You know, understood, have a nice day. You know like?

Speaker 2: 37:22

One of them said um, what are you trying to do? And I said I'm trying to apologize. Why? Because I want you to feel better about. And they went no, they, you want you to feel better. Do you know what? You don't get to know how I feel about this. Right, you don't. You don't deserve to. You will never get to know whether I accept your apology. And I went. I totally and utterly understand. I didn't take it on board for five or six years and I was like, yeah, do you know what I was doing? I was going around ticking off the boxes of yeah, I'm sorry, go on, say it's okay. Now it's not. Yeah, but I said I was sorry, so now you have to. It's like no, no, you can, I can say I accept your apology and and nothing else.

Speaker 1: 38:04

Wow, okay, this is really unfulfilling, so I'm stopping doing that I felt really slighted by a few people that just that didn't want to talk to me afterwards and it was like how dare you? I haven't had a drink for a month yeah, where's my fucking parade?

Speaker 2: 38:22

and it should be forgiven and then you come back and you're like, uh, you know. And a few years later you're like, ah no, absolutely understandable. Yeah, yeah, you, I don't get anything. This isn't how it is. Um, some, some things are never repairable. Some things are some things. You don't want to repair them anyway, and it wasn't worth it, and it's all a big tangle of spaghetti really, and people are very complicated, very fractured human beings and it's best to just do the best you can in the situation.

Speaker 1: 38:56

I agree. So we've got a very limited period of time left, so well. I mean, I didn't want to get into the whole mash gang what mate? Because people didn't listen to other podcasts for that.

Speaker 2: 39:06

And you know, we all know about the pineapple beer and we all know we've all heard the same thing, you know, and it's like, like it must be true, because I've said exactly the same each time it's like james watts from brew dog and he said that I should do it. Okay for clarity. That isn't true. I just made that up.

Speaker 1: 39:26

I was going to say I thought you were owned by them.

Speaker 2: 39:29

Dude, that happens, I still get it today.

Speaker 1: 39:33

Still.

Speaker 2: 39:34

Still get it today, and I think it's fairly clear that if we were owned by a much bigger company, we'd be far more profitable, we'd be far more successful Company's house. Yeah, jesus Christ.

Speaker 1: 39:50

Yeah, what's exciting you at the moment, beer-wise.

Speaker 2: 39:57

The great thing is the beer industry always moves forward. Um, oh, you know, the great thing is the beer industry always moves forward, um, and I, and I should say like I actually like the um, you know that the beer industry, the full-alc industry, is finally taking, you know, notice of the afn. I don't give a shit, like, I don't give a shit about that. Like it's like we're here regardless. There's a load of people like doing good stuff, um, and like I've been talking a week and be friends about doing this fucking stupid project, like there's like clearly got to be done at some point. You know, just waiting for them to get off holiday and I've got a really dumb idea.

Speaker 1: 40:33

So that's, that's really what that kind of brings together. Three episodes I've done. I did that. I was going was gonna say I'm glad that you got my uh, you got my email earlier, but so we had did he say nice things about me? Well, I was talking to sam and sam was saying that he really wants to do a collab and, um, he mentioned mash gang multiple times alex told me, so I I love that alex calls from um.

Speaker 1: 40:59

Can we be friends? It's just. It's like, you know, when you say something right, I do it too. I do it too now, because he's got it in my head but it's when you say something wrong once and you're thinking right, it's not the other thing, it's the other thing, it's the other thing I think that he does it to me deliberately because he knows he can get it to stick.

Speaker 2: 41:19

And then I will say it to someone. And what's worse is that even in my head, looking at the label, I could still say it wrong, because he's drilled it into me incorrectly deliberately. Because they talk quite a lot Sam and Alex talk quite a lot.

Speaker 1: 41:35

So, I was speaking to Sam about him wanting to do collabs and then in another episode I was talking to Rob from Below Brew, formerly Low Tired, and we were on about collabs and he said he can't think of any alcohol-free alcohol-free collabs. It's all been full-alcohol.

Speaker 2: 41:57

I've never done an alcohol-free.

Speaker 1: 42:00

I don't think with someone and I mentioned that sam had said that he wanted to do one with someone.

Speaker 2: 42:07

And now here you are oh no, it's too late now.

Speaker 1: 42:10

Now he's going to do one with below before me no, well, I want I wanted below to do I am a love honey collab that was oh my god, you started on that, did you? Yeah, well, it just makes sense, doesn't it?

Speaker 2: 42:21

the um. Yeah, I had like an idea and I didn't know. I didn't know like um, I didn't know I wanted to do something. Then alex brought up and I was like I'll just send the text and just say like I asked what. I normally just say here's three things, right, but I've got three things. You give me three things and I, but I've got three things, you give me three things, and I'll tell you if any of them line up. And two of them did, and one of them I said save for later because I've got something else for that that you will want right, okay.

Speaker 2: 42:50

You know, there was something else. But I was like I am doing that with someone else, like at the moment, so let's not do that. And then when I told him who I was doing it with, he was like oh no, that makes sense. Yeah, do that one of them. I was like we can do, but we can't do it now because we need access to something to do it and we can't. And then the other thing lined up and he's like the one that lines up is the one I want to do. Anyway, it doesn't sound as exciting, I, so we next week we'll go and work on that. Take it away, and you should see something from us together in the next couple of months it's gonna take a while to do it, but we'll do that.

Speaker 2: 43:26

Um, what's exciting me at the moment? Um, I'm just trying to think of really good things that I've like. Like really good things I've had recently because there's a bit you know, it sucks because I've been like I've been, I've been in the States loads. Yeah, and there's like a lot of the stuff that I've been having there. Um.

Speaker 1: 43:45

I feel like over the last, like in terms of your beers and I don't know if this is just in my head or it's rose tinted glasses but it feels like over the last like six months maybe like the quality has gone from like fucking good to fucking like yeah, I, I, I try, I continually strive to want to do better with things.

Speaker 2: 44:13

But there has been stuff relatively recently where I'm like, oh you know, this is you know, this banger after banger when it's like oh, this is this.

Speaker 2: 44:24

You know I'm picking holes in some, like there are things that I want to be better all the time, but there's like, finally, things that are like actually how I want them. Oh, it's like how I want it, I don't want to change it. Um, the only siege perilous. I just wish was clearer and we got.

Speaker 2: 44:40

We really worked on it. We held it for longer in tank and it's just, sometimes, without putting them through like sterile or fine filtration, it's hard to get things really, really bright, so we have to wait until it drops, otherwise you start stripping out loads of the flavor and it's like quite a pronounced flavor and we had it exactly where we wanted. So we held off, like me and fierce was sending back bottles of like just look like piss, sample competition, you know, like just bottles of it going backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards, you know um, but we just couldn't get it fully, fully clear, and that's the only thing I have. Like I wish.

Speaker 2: 45:16

I wish that some of our lagers were a bit brighter and it's something that we've worked on, but if it comes at the cost of removing like pulse how I wanted it, do you like trains is how I wanted it. Um spiritual industrial complex is how I wanted it. Now, um, like I would say, the siren collab we did, the nitro one was like 75 percent of the way there, which is way further than I usually get with things that I like do. Do you like it?

Speaker 1: 45:39

Oh man, it changed my whole opinion it's not sweet, no, I think it's perfect and I'll be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of Rain and Blood. I'm not really a stout lover.

Speaker 2: 45:51

Rain and Blood's way too sweet for you, right.

Speaker 1: 45:53

Yeah, yeah, like I fucking hate porters. Okay, I hate them.

Speaker 2: 45:58

Fair enough.

Speaker 1: 46:02

And hate porters okay, like I hate them. Um, and stout, like even guinness. When that came out it was like it's very sweet, this is fine, but, and every stout I've had I've been like okay, okay, but it's just not my my thing. That siren one.

Speaker 2: 46:15

I ordered more after I had it because I was like fuck, this is like oh you can't see it because of video, but it says the Arambora wood that we use in it. So it's like that's drilled from the cask and it's um. It doesn't smell like anything else, like. It smells like it smells it's like trying to try and describe.

Speaker 2: 46:39

So what I'm trying to work on at the moment is vegan stouts, like no lactose in stouts. Um, one of the problems is one of the ingredients that we used to use for um, for the um, for vegan stouts, I think you know um, anxiety saint, uh, raining blood, help wanted night. So we're like vegan. But one of the ingredients we used I think it was something that was very rarely used in stuff like it's not a brewing ingredient and I think we were buying a very large amount of it and it's not a popular ingredient. So I think we used all of it and then the only way we could get more of it was importing it directly from the producer in germany, and they wanted to sell us like tens of tons of it and it's like we don't have our own brewery. I can't rock up to fierce and be like yeah, so I've got 10 tons of powder that must be kept dry and at the right temperature or it goes off and it's really expensive. Um, so we've managed to secure some more, but very much.

Speaker 1: 47:39

So we're going to do a couple of stouts as soon as the weather warms up, which Noel will say I've got Cinnabone in my fridge at the moment that I haven't tried Because I feel like I've been super busy.

Speaker 2: 47:57

I hope you really like Cinnabone. It's really Cinnabone. I did it to my taste. Some people are like've been super busy. I hope you really like cinnamon. It's really. It's really cinnamon. I did it to my taste. Some people are like it's too much. It's like fireball whiskey cinnamon.

Speaker 1: 48:06

I like fireball whiskey.

Speaker 2: 48:07

And aftershock, which I both love. So I'm sitting there like, yeah, and it's 50-50. People are like I don't like cinnamon, so I don't like this, and it's like wow. But kind of the foil to that is, if you didn't like cinnamon, you might still like a cinnamon bun or like a chai latte, but this is really like it's like fireball whiskey or something I'm like it's in a barn.

Speaker 1: 48:32

It's like the ITPA, like I poured that up first time and I don't like iced tea. I fucking hate iced tea and I poured that up first time and I don't like, um, ice ice tea. I fucking hate ice tea. And I poured it up and then I can went and did the washing up or something and it wasn't warm enough, it wasn't cool enough I should say wasn't cool enough when I drank it and I was like oh no, no, no, no, not for me oh, but then it's.

Speaker 2: 48:53

Uh, considering it's a pale, ale it needs to be really cold to drink yeah, yeah, yeah it's also an iced tea I had had, like I think I got a four pack of them.

Speaker 1: 49:02

Why did I get a four pack of them when I don't like iced tea? That was fucking stupid, but I did it. And then the following night I had another one out the fridge, drank it straight away.

Speaker 2: 49:10

I was like oh wait, no, it's good, yeah. And then I went and poured up instantly. It was just like I dream about exporting the us beers to the uk and the uk beers to the us. I'd like to do that so that people could have that also. The like they're 16 ounce cans, so they're actually an american pint, so it's like slightly bigger. It's really bizarre. They look the same size, but when you see them in the real they're like there's one there's one beer within the mash gang family that isn't in the UK.

Speaker 1: 49:38

That infuriates me.

Speaker 2: 49:39

Why Sam?

Speaker 1: 49:41

Because I can't remember it's an Australian one. I can't remember the name of it, but it's so like pale, what's it called. I was going to do my head in.

Speaker 2: 49:53

Is it a relatively recent one? Yes Are you looking for that?

Speaker 1: 49:58

Literally.

Speaker 2: 49:58

Regulate.

Speaker 1: 50:03

Okay, I will send you this. Oh, you're a fucking legend that's it.

Speaker 2: 50:05

That's what. That's why I got you on the last ever one like no yeah, well now, what do I do?

Speaker 1: 50:08

do I drink it? Do?

Speaker 2: 50:09

I know you have to yeah, you have to drink it. Um it's, it's great, uh, it doesn't.

Speaker 1: 50:13

It's like anything else like ever, like ever um I saw it and I was just like fuck man, these guys need to like become a household name so we can just have these beers across the world.

Speaker 2: 50:25

It's shocking, this one it's really. It's God it's. When you have these like new world hops, they're very, very different from what you're like. A load of the beers in the UK that we have are all us hops and they're great, you know Um. We have are all us hops and they're great, you know, um, and you can do amazing things with them. But the new stuff out of the southern hemisphere is is so different to what we're used to that it's. It's finally like something exciting in beer. What trent's doing over in oz just amazing. Don't turn that, don't tell him.

Speaker 1: 50:55

I said that I'd never watch never was.

Speaker 2: 50:56

No, fucking no. I love engineers. So yeah, this particular one. Yeah, I will send those. That was my dog asking for a walk because it's five o'clock.

Speaker 1: 51:08

Like an alcoholic waiting for a. There was a saying about being by a water cooler, so I can't fucking remember. But we don't have time for me to remember.

Speaker 2: 51:17

So I'm going to, yeah, what I'll do is I'll I'll send it to you. Yeah, so I sent out some to people like for fun, and I thought I'd sent them all out. But I literally my father-in-law pulled it out of the fridge the other day. I went oh, who's this? I went, no, no, no, that's the last one I think so. And I, I was gonna, I was gonna drink it myself, but actually, no, I'm gonna give it to you well, what a fucking honor.

Speaker 1: 51:43

So thank you for the beer and thank you for coming to uh to chat shit with me I love it.

Speaker 2: 51:48

I love it was. It was a it's been a beautiful contrast, yeah thank you for having me on and, um, I mean, I talk to you every week anyway, so I'll catch up with you soon.

Speaker 1: 51:58

I've missed you, um've been so busy.

Speaker 2: 52:01

It's really like there you are, peter from Hook, because I look tired, but it's worth it. It will all come right by the summer. I will not resent doing all of the work.

Speaker 1: 52:17

Good, because it's good work.

Speaker 2: 52:20

Thank you, man. Appreciate it Not very good with praise For an only child. That's unreal.

Speaker 1: 52:26

Should be your whole kink, shouldn't it?

Speaker 2: 52:28

Yeah, it should be.

Speaker 1: 52:30

Well, you're a very good boy.

Speaker 2: 52:32

I am a very good boy. Thank you Actually. Can I have that in writing? Take care, ben.

Speaker 1: 52:40

It's always a pleasure and I'll catch up with you soon. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the sober boozers club podcast with jord, or, as my girlfriend calls him, mr mash gang. Now, if you want to catch up with jord more, you can head over to mash gang socials. He's kind of the main guy you're going to see over there and he's also the man who brings you hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of amazing beverages every year, every month, every week. For more information on Mashgang, head over to their website. Check out some of the beers they've got going at the moment. You won't be disappointed. For now, my name's Ben Gibbs and I'll catch you very, very soon.