Embracing Sobriety's Tapestry with Shell Regini: Laughs, Reflections And A Campaign For Sober Toilets

When Shell Regini, the heart and soul behind the 'We Recover Loudly' podcast, pulls up a chair, you know you're in for an unfiltered trek down the road to sobriety. Together, we unravel the tapestry of challenges and laughter that stitches together our sober lives, musing over everything from the physical comedy of a broken toe to the stark revelations that come with mental and physical health awareness. Our candid banter traverses the unexpected, often humorous, side of life post-addiction—like agonizing over coffee choices and embracing tranquility amid the erstwhile chaos.

Have you ever wondered what it really means to recover loudly? It’s not just the absence of alcohol, but the growth that fills the void—becoming a human who can withstand life's discomforts without a crutch. Shell and I reflect on the sweet irony of our journey, from rubbing elbows with the rock-and-roll elite to relishing the simple, sober moments that now define our lives. We share our stories of connection and the gratitude that blossoms in recovery's soil, fostering camaraderie that transcends shared suffering into shared strength.

We wrap up this heart-to-heart with a nod to the people who walk the road of sobriety with us, where we invite you to become part of a community that understands the unique struggles and triumphs of sobriety. Shell's experiences in hospitality and her own milestones—like nearing a thousand days sober—underscore the profound impact of our choices. So, if you're ready for an episode that offers equal parts laughter and enlightenment, join us as we celebrate the authenticity and resilience that comes from living loud and sober.

Shell is a hospitality veteran with 18 years FOH experience, focusing primarily on operations, training, and business development. She has worked for some of London's best restaurant groups including Hawksmoor, Gaucho and Polpo. Having suffered a life changing burnout late 2020, she has changed her focus to improving the mental health working conditions of people in the industry by forcing difficult conversations out into the open, specifically concerning the hidden epidemic of addiction. Her podcast We Recover Loudly offers a platform for people with experience of drug and alcohol addiction, in the industry to discuss what we can do to change the systemic culture of excessive substance use we have. Shell is a chief ambassador with The Burnt Chef Project, and Low No Drinker magazine’s resident agony aunt. To get in touch with Shell, email her at hello@werecoverloudly.com, follow her on Instagram @werecoverloudly and LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-righin

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Sober Boozers Club podcast, a place where we can talk openly and honestly about addiction, sobriety and, strangely enough, beer. I'm Ben, I'm an alcoholic and for the last two years, I've been sampling some of the finest alcohol-free beers the world has to offer. Each week, I'll be joined by a different guest to discuss their own lived experiences on all things related to the world of low and no alcohol beverages. So pour yourself a tipple, relax and let me welcome you to the Sober Boozers Club. In today's episode, I talked to Shell Regini, who is the leader of we Recover Loudly. Now, that is, of course, a podcast, but it's also an online community focusing on working conditions and mental health within the hospitality industry, specifically related to drink and drugs. As I've mentioned, she's a podcast host, she's an agony aunt for Lono Drinker magazine, she's an ambassador for the Burnt Chef Project and she's so much more, and we're going to delve into a little bit of that, but mostly we're just going to chat absolute nonsense. This feels really strange.

Speaker 2: 1:11

It feels like I'm kind of interviewing my mom here because you, wow, is that an age thing?

Speaker 1: 1:13

well, like my kind of podcast. Mom, you know I'm probably older, am I older?

Speaker 2: 1:17

than you. I mean that's a compliment we're not going to go into the age thing how are you?

Speaker 1: 1:22

are you okay? Um? I'm incredibly insulted but otherwise perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:23

How are you? Are you okay? I'm incredibly insulted, but otherwise perfect. How are?

Speaker 1: 1:27

you. I'm fine, I'm enjoying life down in this lovely hole that I've recently dug. It's quite cosy, really. What I meant was you interviewed me for the first time on your podcast and now here I am desperately trying to live, to live up to that and I'm kind of like tell me if I've done the right thing. Have I asked good questions? Um podcasting, sensei right, oh my goodness. So you're on. What season are you on now? It it's season two, am I right? And season three is underway.

Speaker 2: 2:07

Yes, we are at the latter half of season two and yeah, I'm already I'm booking in season three. Now I made the potential error we'll see if it was an error of doing a load of recordings in a big block last summer or at the end of last summer, but I'm still releasing the ones that I've recorded back then because I recorded so many. I recorded like 30.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Wow, that's, yeah, that's pretty good. I mean, when I went into this I was like, oh yeah, it'll be great, it's just having a chat for you know, 40 to 50 minutes every uh, every other day. And then you realize that you've got to. I say you've got to plan the questions, knowing full well that I have absolutely nothing in front of me, uh, currently, and we're just winging it.

Speaker 2: 2:56

Um, but it's you know, talking to people is tough. Um, being nice is quite hard. Um, I think that, especially now that a lot of this remote work, um, I've forgotten social skills. Um, I don't really know how to dress anymore. For kind of the world shoe footwear, I went out wearing socks and sandals, not in an ironic way, because they weren't birkenstocks earlier, they're just the five pound flip-flops yeah, we're not at the age anymore that we can pull that off, as we've already established yeah, there's no irony, because you're right.

Speaker 1: 3:35

The reason I went for that look is because I broke my little toe and it's all that fits me right now apparently I don't know how true this is, but it was because I think this is an old wife's tale that you break your little toe like x amount of times every year but I don't know if that's absolute nonsense.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Yeah, rocking around breaking your little toe apparently. Trust me, this one was a different one.

Speaker 1: 3:56

Break this one, I noticed a proper break, but I heard as well and I don't know if this is nonsense and I've just believed it but your little toe is more important to balance than your big toe.

Speaker 2: 4:07

Oh, that's interesting. I think it must be nonsense. Well, my little toes are like kind of ride on my other toes.

Speaker 1: 4:17

Oh, okay, so.

Speaker 2: 4:19

I mean, I don't know what that says about my balance, but at the same time I am very clumsy. But I tell you what there's nothing worse than getting an injury in sobriety, especially like a stupid injury like a broken toe.

Speaker 1: 4:34

Yeah, because there's no fun story to go with it, it's just like I just did this because I'm broken.

Speaker 2: 4:39

Yeah, I just wasn't able to move around the space that is my home without causing chaos.

Speaker 1: 4:46

And yeah, I'm still sober, though since sobriety, my general health has, like gone to the dogs. That's not a very good sign, is it? Um, I think I'm just more aware of it, whereas before I'd feel terrible and be like, oh, it's probably just a hangover, let's have a drink and that'll sort it out, and then you feel like great. Well, I mean yeah, you do right um, do you?

Speaker 2: 5:10

know, what?

Speaker 1: 5:10

giving up booze? I'm just every little ailment. I'm like I'm very unwell.

Speaker 2: 5:16

Something's really wrong we exist at this equilibrium of peace and calm of which our mental health, like mentally, spiritually, physically, we've never experienced. Because, let's be clear, most people who are addicts, alcoholics, probably have quite turbulent times growing up. You know, when work relationship, so we're used to, even without the alcohol, a life full of like these peaks and troughs or troughs and more troughs and further troughs back down to that whole where you currently are. But there becomes this like magical thing around, like I'm coming up to three years where suddenly life becomes very equal and anything that kind of permeates that very fine line. It totally throws you.

Speaker 2: 6:01

The other day I forgot that I can't. I don't drink caffeine. I'm not a massive caffeine drinker, because it doesn't really do anything for me because of having ADHD and it's also not very good for inflammation, um, so it's not really something I drink because of having fibro and I have three coffees because I don't know who I thought I was. You know, like I don't know Led Zeppelin, who the fuck knows who I thought I was. I full-on thought I was having a panic attack. I had to go to the toilet and try and make myself sick, you know, like when you used to, when you had a hangover it's outrageous.

Speaker 2: 6:30

I know, and then I ended up just doing some deep breaths for about an hour and drinking pints of water, like that's how much we now get affected by things, which is ridiculous but also kind of cool yeah, like I, you're speaking about the caffeine.

Speaker 1: 6:45

It actually kind of ties into it. So the last time we spoke was just before I started my podcast and it was kind of a little. Let's talk about podcasts, how do you do it, how do you record, et cetera, et cetera. And I had my third coffee of the day during that chat and I was aware, as we were getting to the end of it, that my heart was racing and I was like and then I was like you're on a zoom call, ben, like just be chill, be chill. And as soon as we stopped talking, mad panic attack. Mad panic attack to the point where I couldn't swallow and I was like this is really bad. This is really. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's happening. And it's like man, like the amount of cocaine that entered my nostrils and like the amount of things that I have put in myself. Yeah, and now it's like a nice medium roast coffee will send me over the edge.

Speaker 2: 7:41

I get scared drinking functional drinks, sometimes because of the nootropics I had a nootropic the other day and I was like, oh my god, what's this gonna do to me? This is the same person who used to go into a toilet stall, wipe my finger along the back just in case there was some crumbs. God knows, you know, god knows what they were. Do you know? Like if I'd found something on the floor, I'm not gonna hand it in, I'm gonna like probably take. Now I'm like sorry, what? What new tropics exactly are we talking about? Is that is?

Speaker 1: 8:12

that is that reishi. Oh, stay away from reishi after five I've tried lion's mane before, but I haven't tried this strain and I don't. I need a. You know, like you have trip buddies, you could have mushroom buddies it is.

Speaker 2: 8:24

It's ridiculous. No, it's exactly the same and it's it's it's both a privilege to be so acutely aware of that sense of calm and clarity, because it's, it's precious. It's so precious and I can remember my first day, my day one, and um, I did 12 steps at the time and the girl who sponsored me saying what do you want, type thing, and I said I just want some peace, I just want some peace. My head is a gazillion miles an hour, which it still is, but I just wanted peace and quiet. I just that's all I wanted, and to feel that.

Speaker 2: 9:01

And so now that I've achieved that, you know yeah we do protect it preciously and I think that's kind of cool, but it is at the same time absolutely hilarious, like listening to addicts, kind of like I'll have a decaf almond frappuccino no sugar, because I don't want the high um, with an extra shot of reishi.

Speaker 1: 9:23

It's's wild, isn't it? I wonder how this happened. There's got to be a link somewhere, there's got to be a reason that this happens. Maybe we're just hyper aware of everything.

Speaker 2: 9:33

I think we are, and I think there really is something about the fact that I don't think and this is where there's a bit of a narrative around being and I say this understanding completely how being an addict is horrendous but there is some kind of there's a luckiness to being an addict or there's a, you know, when we hit we, we often hear in the rooms I'm a grateful alcoholic. You know, I'm really grateful, and the reason for that is because when you go through something so horrendous and you get to the other side and you get to the other side, however, not just on your own, you get to it like, kind of via a community and via a collective, um, almost like a collective response to the thing that you're going through, which is very much what it's like in, you know, not just in 12 steps any kind of recovery program. I think that you do get to experience life in a way that other people don't.

Speaker 1: 10:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:27

And I do think that that makes you appreciate it in a level that other people potentially never will, because until you've felt the devastating lows that life can hold all of your own creation, normally it's really difficult, I think, and in that respect I do sometimes class myself as, more often than not, in fact, quite lucky to be in recovery but to be, you know, an addict, because I have gotten to have those that, that experience of the way that the world is, you know yeah, there's a massive camaraderie there.

Speaker 1: 11:07

The amount of times I've heard from people within my social circle that are struggling but maybe haven't come to terms with their addiction yet how nobody will understand other than in this situation me, because I've been through it and it's true, nobody understands the process of addiction like an addict. And when you have got through it and you're at the kind of level where you feel like you're in sobriety for now, because you know it's always for now. But when you've got through that and you can relate to those stories and to those people, it's a beautiful place and you can relate to those stories and to those people. It's a beautiful place and to understand that kind of struggle, I think, is a real gift, 100%.

Speaker 2: 11:52

It allows you to connect with people in a way that, weirdly enough, I think we've always wanted to be able to connect One of the things that's a very common thread with people who are, who are addicts, um, alcoholics. Whatever you want to say is that we lack that community and connection. We don't know how to relate to people. Um, there's, you know the uh, the, the increasing statistics of correlation between neurodivergent people and addicts. Is is a massive indicator of that and um.

Speaker 2: 12:23

And we just spend most of our lives and again, I do know that I'm speaking for a whole community here but effectively we spend our whole lives feeling disconnected, alone, isolated, incapable of communicating conversation. Suddenly we're able to do so with people, not just kind of like, at face value, but we can really really sit with people and ourselves. We get taught how to sit with ourselves. We sit in discomfort more, I think, than anyone else, because, again, that's what we learn to do. We don't hide it with you know, a chocolate bar, a bar, a bottle of wine, a cigarette, chocolate maybe. So I think that the whole process of recovery is such a fascinating thing if you even look at it from an outsider's point of view, because it really isn't about putting down the substances. It's about the whole growth and everything else, and I do think that we do become better humans overall, in a way.

Speaker 1: 13:28

Yeah, massively. The way that I always looked at it when I was in active addiction was that alcohol, which was what my issue was. It wasn't the cause of all of my problems, but alcohol was the lubricant that allowed those problems to become everybody else's problem. So without booze I wouldn't have maybe you know. For example, oh, I feel sad because me and my ex have split up. I feel sad because I'm feeling insecure. I feel sad because I feel emasculated, and those are things that you can kind of process and sort of say, okay, you're being a silly boy now, but with alcohol it becomes well, I'm going to have a tantrum and that's just. You know, it's a never-ending process until you decide to break it.

Speaker 1: 14:15

Yeah, you know, it's two and a half years, I think. Yeah, it will be in June for me and it's still. You know, I'm still having to work through those processes. If ever I'm feeling a little bit triggered or a little bit upset, the impulse to light a fire and watch my house burn down is still there. But now that voice is a lot quieter than it was.

Speaker 2: 14:41

Yeah, and it's replaced by a slightly different voice as well, and I think one of the, again, one of the privileges in losing everything, and that's whether it's, you know, that's material as well as other things.

Speaker 2: 14:53

You know, because everybody's, there's no such thing as the same recovery story, the same rock bottom, the same journey to wherever like again.

Speaker 2: 15:01

That's why it's also quite beautiful, but I think that there's something about being in whatever your version of losing everything as well, that allows you to have that appreciation for what you've got and again creates this different voice that goes is it worth it? You know, a big part of 12 steps is making amends for the things that you've done wrong, and you know being the type of person that doesn't hold grudges and you don't kind of hold resentments, because when you live like that, when you live in that nasty state where you constantly think others are out to get you and that it's all that, it's not a nice way to live and that's often, you know, a reason that people might go and go off Screw this, I'm going to light my world on fire. And. And that people might go and go off screw this, I'm gonna light my world on fire. And again, you know, now I've got this voice that goes. Is it worth it? Do you want to have to?

Speaker 2: 15:49

because you know if you're gonna go down that rabbit hole, you're then gonna have to yeah, you're gonna have to apologize and you're gonna have to do all this, and I love that, because then I kind of go no, it's not worth it. No, that's, that's ridiculous this is a minor inconvenience at best yeah, whereas before you'd be like, fuck yeah, it's worth it.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Bring the popcorn, let's do this yeah, don't back down, double down the amount of like. If I really sit and think about the amount of times that I kicked off about things that are just so unimportant, it's like, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear and you know what you only you don't even realize how much you did it.

Speaker 2: 16:31

It's more, I've noticed reactions of others. So when other people say something and they do it in this really kind of reserved so shout, should we do this instead? And they kind of tiptoe around things and you're here and you're like why are they asking me in such a bizarre way?

Speaker 1: 16:46

yeah, it's a silly thing to be worried about I know, but clearly it's come from something you know.

Speaker 2: 16:52

These are learned behaviors from other people who are tiptoeing around I think a lot of people genuinely live like it.

Speaker 1: 17:00

Um, like I've noticed with my girlfriend. Um, she was never with me when I was an addict. Um, she, she knew me loosely when I was an addict, but not you know, we were just kind of like hello, hello she's like get away from that guy well, the first time, um, the first time we ever met she, um, she used to work with me and that's how we kind of met. I say with me. She worked for the same company but we didn't work together and I bumped into her in the kitchen one day.

Speaker 2: 17:30

Yeah, this is like the start of a Friends episode.

Speaker 1: 17:33

And I'll never forget this conversation. She'd only just started and I walked into the kitchen to make my coffee. She was like, oh, hiya, morning, you okay? And I was like no, I'm fucking hungover. And her response literally she turned to me and went but it's a tuesday, it was just, and that was the start of it, and I was still wearing the clothes from the night before. I had bright pink hair at the time and my response apparently I was pretty. But apparently my response was just yeah, it's industry night on mondays and that was it oh, my god, I wasn't even in the industry, man like I played in a local band yeah, which industry exactly?

Speaker 1: 18:14

yeah, in it, like but it's like I wasn't in in hospitality but I surrounded myself with people at work because I could drink, you know, my drinks on the weekend. And then on Sundays and Mondays I could go to industry night and get on it again and it was brilliant. But, yeah, just that response like oh, it's a Tuesday, oh God. But going back to the point, sometimes she'll be doing something like she'll be going to see friends or she'll be, you know, doing whatever, and she'll look at me and be like but that's okay, isn't it? I'm doing this and it's like yes, you ridiculous human, what a silly question. And but that comes from her past experiences of people being like no, because you can't go and drink, because drink equals bad. Yeah, I think we all have this inherent thought that you know, bad things can happen when people are drunk yeah, no, it's absolutely true.

Speaker 2: 19:09

And again, that whole kind of like the kind of the tiptoeing around the addict, it's something that you and I kind of openly discussed on an Instagram post like months ago. Um, and I do understand why family members and friends tiptoe around us. I think you know it's because of care and stuff like that. But I do understand why family members and friends tiptoe around us. I think you know it's because of care and stuff like that. But I do think that there is value in kind of allowing people to say things like who are in active recovery, to say I really fancy a drink. You know, I could really have a drink.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Today is a day that I could just have a drink. Now we say that and, understandably, alarms go off everywhere. You know it's like get this girl in lockdown, the shutters come down the windows and things like that. But let's be clear just because we're sober, it doesn't mean we don't still have those shit days and those moments where and and actually just having the freedom to feel safe enough to say do you know what? I fucking love a gin yeah I'm not gonna have one.

Speaker 2: 20:12

I think that's kind of important because it almost kind of like otherwise you because I don't know me anyway I know I do get those feelings all the time now not all the time, but I do get those feelings when I've had a bad day, you know, of course, or the sun's out, you know. Oh yes, I want an Aperol, aperol Spritz, please.

Speaker 1: 20:30

There are some elite drinks Like you've got your airport beer, that's an elite beer.

Speaker 2: 20:35

Yeah, I never did airport beer. I don't understand that.

Speaker 1: 20:37

But I know I'm alone in. You went, liv, give it a go just once. Ben said it was okay, oh my goodness. But I completely agree. There are certain drinking occasions that are amazing and although you can still have them with you know alcohol-free alternatives the fact is they're just not as good. And that's okay, man, like it's got to be, gotta be. Like nothing beats a two pint buzz. Nothing beats it. It's amazing. But for me, I can't do that, you know, and that's fine. Um, because I just, I just can't you know, and it's okay being able to sing, you know an amazing, an amazing opera piece.

Speaker 1: 21:22

But I can't do that, so I'm not gonna try.

Speaker 2: 21:25

I'm just not gonna try because I'd be embarrassed and everyone would shout at me because I can't speak italian oh, my god, the small part I was going to say small part quite a big part of me, which is I don't drunk ben um it's like I went to um a sober rave in the daytime House of Happiness, which was so much fun, and I was very nervous because I thought I hate raving.

Speaker 2: 21:50

And it turns out I actually don't hate raving. I hate drunk people, because when you're there and there's no other drunk people, it was glorious. The floors weren't sticky, nobody kept touching my bum. It was amazing. Nobody kept touching my bum. It was amazing. Um, but the sad thing in a weird way is when I went to the toilet I didn't meet my lifelong lost best friend and, you know, invited in my way, you know, because that's what girls do in the toilets we go for a wee and two hours later we've uh, we've got the.

Speaker 1: 22:17

you know, we've got a maid of honor all that used to happen to me was I'd leave with a massive penis complex. I remember leaving a toilet once with some guy that had befriended me and we walked out into the middle of this bar and I was playing a gig that night and this guy just turns around, he goes. We've both got really little willies and I was just like don't tell them all. I told him that in confidence.

Speaker 2: 22:41

Man, that's one thing actually is that what drunk guys talk about in the toilet? Do they just go in really woefully and go like, hey, I'm really drunk, anyone else got a small penis?

Speaker 1: 22:51

yeah, I mean, it's like I do, brother. It's you know what, like flaccid and urinating, they're all the same. Um god, what has happened? But no, I really do struggle with the whole toilet break, with pubs now as a sober person, like male toilets and female toilets I'm sure as well, but male they're the worst, barbaric, like we have to piss in a trough man.

Speaker 1: 23:19

It's the people stop going to hip cool places, the hip of the place, the worst even if, even if I opt not to use the trough and I go for the stool like stool is a literal word there like you don't know what you're gonna get and it's, it's abhorrent, and that's the one thing that I think we need to improve about. Sober pub visits, like the beers, are getting better.

Speaker 2: 23:42

Yeah, company is you know what what you make of it um the toilet situation.

Speaker 1: 23:43

I think we need to improve about sober. Pub visits, Like the beers, are getting better. The company is, you know what you make of it. The toilet situation I think we should have sober specific bathrooms.

Speaker 2: 23:51

I couldn't agree more. I think that we should have genderless bathrooms and then sober bathrooms.

Speaker 1: 23:57

Yeah, because that way People won't wash their hands and won't tell me how little my willy is. Absolutely, I've got my own friends for that.

Speaker 2: 24:07

No, yeah, I think you've hit something really important. I think we should start the campaign for sober, sober, safe toilets.

Speaker 1: 24:15

Well, you'd be the best person to do that, because you do have a little hand in the hospitality industry. So we should probably talk a little bit about that because it's very important and this is a platform for you to do that, rather than us just talk about my little Willie and your age.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Wow, right back there again, all right, well, while you're back down in your hole. No, I mean, it's interesting what you said about the whole industry night and hospitality, and indeed you know it's a really challenging industry to realize that you have an issue because largely everything that we do is in plain sight. And the other thing is that we don't do it alone. So we're in other industries although, like you know, the hospitality is not the other one, only one but we're in other industries, like your girlfriend pointed out. You know you come in on a Tuesday and the response is why on earth are you hung over on a Tuesday? Like what you know?

Speaker 2: 25:11

In hospitality you rock and hung over on a Tuesday and everyone's like bro, bro, industry night, right, right, how many hours? You're like one hour of sleep, they're like safe, like You're like one hour of sleep, they're like safe, like that's the conversation. And then you go have a cry in the walk-in and then you pretend that you're doing the stock count, where you're not really. You're just like hiding in a corner trying to get some sleep. And then you get to go home eventually and you go oh God, I'm never going to do that again. Then you normally have Wednesday, don't drink Wednesday, but then it's Thursday, because Thursday is the new Friday, which is the new Saturday, which is the new Sunday, and and and it all starts again.

Speaker 2: 25:50

And it starts again in such an open and accepted like arena that what we're fine, what we find, is that people can go for years having a problem, or what I love to call the oxymoron that is functional alcoholic. Because, let's be clear, there ain't no functioning, you know. But I do love that when people say I was a functioning alcoholic. So what are you? What level of functioning are we talking here?

Speaker 2: 26:22

Um, and I think it's just very sad that we lose a lot of people in our industry, firstly to other industries, because people think you know what, I don't want to do this anymore. Um, we lose them to mental health and we lose them to suicide, you know, because the problem, the thing about drinking and drug taking and again you touched on it earlier it's not about the substance, it's not about what we're consuming, it's about the reasons why. You know, alcohol was never the problem, it's the solution to the problem and our industry has got a lot of problems and that's really where we need to be starting to focus. It's not all about the kind of like oh no, let's put a good drug and alcohol policy in place, let's support team members. That's amazing, but why have we gotten to where we've gotten? And that's really kind of the focus of the work that we're doing.

Speaker 1: 27:14

Yeah, I think it's a common thing, isn't it? Within the hospitality industry? I mean, I think in every city you've got there's a common thing, isn't it? Within the hospitality industry? I mean, I think in every city you've got there's a scene, and it's, you know, consisting of a handful of people that work in these places, and they're all very similar. And that's not me trying to pigeonhole people, but it's kind of like certain people get and I need to be careful with my words here when I say people get stuck in hospitality, people get trapped by hospitality, because I don't mean that in a oh no, we do.

Speaker 2: 27:44

It's like a spider web, it is.

Speaker 1: 27:46

But it becomes. You know, it's a massive part, it's a social release, you know, and people kind of end up chasing that a little bit, or at least I did. You know, I used to hang out in these places and I wanted to feel like I knew the people that worked there, because there was an aspiration to it and that really just was surrounded by the drink and drug culture.

Speaker 1: 28:08

And it was like I want to be seen to be in this, and it's a really complex thing to kind of break down, because is it an individual thing, is it just are certain people just attracted to that, or is it, as you say, the industry that needs really rethinking?

Speaker 2: 28:27

again, it's so. As an industry, we attract a vulnerable young population of people, and what I mean by that is that we attract people who haven't necessarily gone the traditional school route, because we don't require qualifications to come and work for us. We'll invite anybody and anyone, and that's one of the best parts of our industry is the fact that we will take on anyone from any background that other places won't. That's the that's, you know, like stories of people beginning as kps, you know, who can't speak english, who are now operations directors. You know it's, it's the wonderful thing. But we attract a very vulnerable workforce. We attract a lot of people who are neurodivergent, diagnosed or undiagnosed, and people like that do require slightly different support, which not always are being given.

Speaker 2: 29:18

But the thing that the hospitality offers is community connection and often the thing that that type of person has been missing out. It's all about subcultures. It's almost like a subculture working in hospitality, and I worked in Birmingham, around your end of the world. Um, what was it maybe like 10 years ago now and it was at the time where there's a group called bitters and twisted and they had I think it was six or seven sites, but it was the monopoly of the city. There was nothing like what we have there now and it was exactly like you said. It was a crew and the crew moved through the town and moved through the venues as a collective and it was. There was safety connection.

Speaker 2: 29:59

Oh, you're one of the bits and twisted. But you know, suddenly you weren't alone and I think a lot of the times, the types of people we have coming into our industry are people that have spent a lot of time alone. We're the weird kid, you know. We're the one that didn't do great at school. We're the one that didn't do great at school. We're the one that can't catch a ball. You know. We're the one who used to go to school with different laces in our shoes and things like that. We're the one who likes alternate rock.

Speaker 1: 30:29

I feel so heard.

Speaker 2: 30:31

I know right, and as just human beings, as creatures. Community and connection is what we desperately seek, because without that we don't thrive. We're not built to thrive without that. So you've got a vulnerable group of people coming in, you give them all of the things that they've been searching for, and then, underneath that, there is this magical insidiousness, liquid called alcohol which does, let's be clear, make everything a little bit more fun until it doesn't you know like and let's not.

Speaker 2: 31:12

It's great fun, but you just never know. I put a post up a few days ago. This thing about addiction that people seem to think is that you know, you get to like I don't know age 30 and you get a owl through the window with a letter going you got to 30 and you're not an addict, you passed, it doesn't, it doesn't care, it doesn't creep up on anyone Exactly.

Speaker 1: 31:35

If you're vulnerable, you're vulnerable, you're vulnerable. Or if it gets you, it gets you. I mean, there are some people in you know I can talk for the music scene, which is very similar to the hospitality kind of scene.

Speaker 1: 31:50

And usually actually quite intertwined. But in the local music scene there are people that I could pick out, who I know of, that I could quite confidently say they are addicts. There's other people that if you saw them on a night out you'd be forgiven for thinking they're an addict. But actually their sound, you know, they just enjoy their drinks.

Speaker 1: 32:14

When they enjoy their drinks and it's kind of like, okay, you're I don't want to say immune, but it's like you've not got the bug yeah and those people you know this industry is, it's, it's fine, it works for them, but it doesn't work for everybody, and when it gets somebody it gets them bad. You know like yeah if the industry was to change, it wouldn't affect't affect John, who goes out on the weekend and doesn't have an alcohol problem but enjoys his drinks when he enjoys his drinks.

Speaker 2: 32:45

It would affect someone like myself in a positive way if the industry was to change goes out on the weekend and has a couple of beers and goes home, will feel completely disconnected from the entire community that is within that hospitality space, the music industry space, because john, it turns out, never gets invited anywhere, never doesn't make real friends.

Speaker 2: 33:09

John goes home, you know, pops his little microwave meal in, watches some rick and morty and goes to bed while everyone else is out connecting, bonding, because there's so much, you know, again, when you've got this vulnerable group of people, there's a lot of trauma bonding and there's a lot of trauma dumping and again that binds you closer.

Speaker 2: 33:30

So you add alcohol, traumas of either life or just even the evening John's at home getting his 10 hours or whatever, comes back in and John won't carry on working there because again there's an exclusion and there's a feeling of you know, we all know what it's like when you miss that night service where shit went off, and the whole next day everyone's like, oh God, I didn't remember so and so. And you're like, oh, fuck's sake, I can't believe I had a day off. They're like, yeah, you should have been there. You're like, oh, okay, and you and you couldn't feel more left out and more annoyed, instead of coming in from a day off and feeling like refreshed. You're like god damn me and my day's off. Why can't I not so again? It's almost like the industry doesn't allow for characters like john to thrive and to feel, because I think it's actually quite lonely.

Speaker 1: 34:20

Yeah, see, when you were describing that, you know John's scenario. Bless him. I felt really hurt then because for me again, I'm tying this into the music industry but my ex was within the hospitality scene in Birmingham and was very much one of those people. But for me I kind of live just south of Birmingham, so for me to get into Birmingham it would be a train ride or a drive or get an Uber and I never really felt a part of it. I knew of everybody but I was never like good mates with them.

Speaker 1: 34:56

So I was on the outside really trying to get in because I felt like that would be my next step to a better life um and then, when I started to kind of infiltrate a little bit that's a strange word to use, but we'll roll with it um, that's when I was like, oh, this is great, all of these new social events have opened up to me. Um, but actually it was just more drinking opportunities.

Speaker 2: 35:19

And then, you know, the rest is history, as they say and the sad thing is is what did you have to do to infiltrate, be the person that sometimes was the one that had the drugs, be the person that sometimes was there getting the shots in. So, oh, hang on that, they're cool, they're oh okay. And the currency, exactly the currency for that connection and that community is drugs and alcohol, yeah, you know. And so, again, it's just this self-fulfilling thing, and I think it's interesting that people are saying you know, there's all this chat about Gen Z and you know, gen Z not drinking and it's not going to be a thing, and I think it'll be really interesting to see what comes of that, because I think that there is a lot more isolation now for people Gen Z. I think they're far more used to being John, yeah, and I don't think that's a good thing, because you know we've got people that they, they were, they were locked down for you know what, like a quarter, a fifth of their life so far, and so we've create, you know, we've kind of got these different types of personalities coming through, and I think what we'll find instead is this whole narrative about gen z not drinking is that we'll probably find a lot more secret drinking and stuff like that. So even there, it's going to be quite interesting that, you know, they seem to think our kind of, the currency for, or the initiation to these groupings is changing.

Speaker 2: 36:49

But is it really? Or are we actually just going to have people at work all going home? You know, clock's finished, we've all done the clean down, we've all done a cup, we've all had a Coca--cola, and now 10 johns go home but instead of, you know, watching rick and morty with their microwave meal, it's 10 bottles of wine, it's 10 bags of coke, because what we haven't changed is the problem and the reasons for the drinking. You know, and it's almost like the industry can almost feel, like they can whitewash, um or get rid of their responsibility because, thank god, gen z has decided not to drink, so we don't have to change yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 37:27

That's interesting. That is interesting. Um, what do you think I mean? This is a massive question, but what do you think needs to happen, or what are the first steps, or what would you like to see happen?

Speaker 2: 37:38

um in hospitality, yes, the biggest. The thing that needs to happen is it's a top-down change and that's the biggest challenge. It's not the kids coming in, it's not the, it's not the youths that need to change their, change their attitude, um, and change anything um that they're doing. It's the top level and the challenging thing is and I can't remember the statistic there is a statistic about the higher up in management you get and the correlation between the higher in management and the more rates of addiction. It's like a nice little straight line because of the pressures, because of the lack of training, because of the lack of support. So the people that we really need to change, the people that are going to change culture, are the people that this lifestyle sometimes feels like the only thing keeping them together. So if you go to a general manager who is so stressed, who is unsupported, who literally can't tell you the last time they ate, had a wee, is living on cigarettes, monster crayons of drink um, a sandwich eaten over the bin um, alcohol, cocaine, and you say to them um, can you just change all of that please? Um, is that okay? Because what you're basically saying to them, will you please perform work naked from now on like, yeah, and it's a huge, it's a massive ask, but that's where it needs to change.

Speaker 2: 39:12

And the more people like myself, like the incredible people that I've interviewed so far, who are in these positions, the more organizations who are able to go hey, I'm a head chef and I don't drink. Hey, I'm a GM, I'm an ops, I'm an owner, I'm a whatever it might be and I don't drink. I think the better, because it's as always, it's. You know, we say in AA, it it's attraction, not promotion. Yes, the more we see these people living these incredibly successful lives without having to use substances to get them to where they are, and also the more we stop rewarding it. You've had a really good shift. Here's a bottle of wine yeah, you've done a great job.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Here's's some Prosecco or whatever. Like I think it just needs to be taken completely out of the narrative. I mean, we've discussed before on the podcast. You know how you would look up at managers, and managers would be like allowed an old-fashioned after work, whereas like you'd have a shitty beer and you would naturally in your head be like one day I will be a manager and I will have an old-fashioned.

Speaker 1: 40:21

One day I'll drink all the spirits.

Speaker 2: 40:23

A hundred percent, and again, also when we've got a vulnerable workforce. They are very impressionable. I say they, I we're very impressionable. Neurodivergent people are exceptionally susceptible to masking, which is effectively taking on others characters so when I see somebody, I want to be this person exactly.

Speaker 2: 40:46

So you see that happening. Of course, you then think, ah, what is a manager? A manager is somebody who shouts and drinks whiskey. Okay, I will start to be like that. Now, a neurotypical person might be like that's fucking stupid, but to us it's like, ah, that is the character I must be and you will do it.

Speaker 1: 41:06

Yeah, I had an ex once that told me that they wanted to get a little spoon, like a silver spoon, to serve their Coke with. And it's like where have you seen this? You've seen this on a TV show, haven't you? But I mean, I was as bad for things like that. I'd see someone outrageous and be like I want to be you, oh, 100%.

Speaker 1: 41:31

And that was it. I wanted to be the version of myself that I became when I drank. I just didn't want to be nasty with it. The version of myself that I became when I drank. I just didn't want to be nasty with it. Like I loved myself when I was an alcoholic to the point of narcissism, you know, absolutely loved the life I'd created for myself.

Speaker 2: 41:48

I just didn't love the aftermath there is a sweet spot which, exactly that you know, it's almost like you do become the thing that you wanted to be, and I think our industries in particular supported that. You know, when I was kind of like 18, 19 or actually younger 14, 15 all I wanted to do was move to London. I was massively into music and I was desperate to live in Camden because that's where all of my favorite bands at the time were playing and stuff and I wanted to be. I was obsessed with Courtney Love. I wanted to be. I was obsessed with Courtney Love. I wanted to be her.

Speaker 2: 42:19

You know this waif-like femme fatale, you know who wore night dresses as clothes and eyeliner. And fast forward to Chelle in her mid twenties. And that was me. That was exactly how I dressed. I used to stumble around Camden wearing Doc Martens and tutus and you know like it was. And I worked in a really cool bar that all the kind of bands hung out in and I created the life that I, like that young shell, thought you know, I'm there, I'm a cool kid. Finally. I'm the cool kid, finally. Everybody was new me and everybody you know had this vision of me. And that was when the whole romanticization of being an addict. In particular it's drugs. You know that romantic kind of portrayal of the drug addict was intoxicating. Oh pun, um and yeah, and you're right. You know there were moments within that that if you had floated up for myself I would have been like, oh, I've done it.

Speaker 2: 43:22

Yeah, look at who you are, you're so fucking cool yeah, yeah, yeah now this week, friday, I went to bed at about six and I started watching a show on netflix about your gut health. Oh, I need to watch that. Yeah, I did actually.

Speaker 1: 43:39

It's on my list.

Speaker 2: 43:41

I did actually stop myself because I was like all right, shall we? You might be fucking sober, but let's draw a line. It's a Friday night and you're learning about gut health.

Speaker 1: 43:51

It's not okay. Do you know what would fix me Humoric? Yeah, that's the shit, man. An act in a day, man, I, yeah, that's the shit man, man, I'll take two.

Speaker 2: 44:02

See what happens. Careful that equilibrium. And you know, and I'll think to myself sometimes like fuck, now 14 year old shell would look down and just be like what happened? This wasn't the plan, yeah what on earth?

Speaker 1: 44:14

is going on yeah, I feel like I can remember being being in a pub and winning a pub quiz when I was like peak party boy ben and I won the pub quiz and there were a load of like the chavs from my school there I'd say the chavs, like that's how I viewed them um they just want trainers and I remember I remember standing up and looking at them and screaming look at me now.

Speaker 1: 44:44

And like I was wearing like velvet flares at the time and you know I went from that and like you know playing some great gigs, like hanging out with fucking Robert Plant, et cetera. Like it's not me trying to name Robert.

Speaker 2: 44:55

And McFly right.

Speaker 1: 44:56

Yes, avoid McFly. But doing all of that, where my life was like yo, this is wicked, Like yeah, bump a couple of lines, it's fine. My life was that amazing, amazing, amazing Fire, and now this like, which is seemingly mundane if you're still party boy, but actually I'm more content now than I've ever been in my life oh god yeah, and I mean, that's what matters, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 45:26

it is. We've got peace, yeah, and I think if that, if that 14 year old girl was floating over my bed after I kind of got over the whole shock of it and being like what the fuck? Um, I would say to her yeah, this might look banal, boring, and you might be disappointed in me right now because you know this wasn't the plan, but do you know what you have got? For the first time, you've got real friends. You know it was my birthday a few weeks ago. Um, I went, I had like four. Thank you, yeah, I was 21. Um you, I had like four dinners out, I had birthday cards and it's not a material thing.

Speaker 2: 46:02

I actually had friends and you know I joked. I was like, oh, if only I'd known how to make friends. All you need to do is become an alcoholic. I'd have done it sooner and I've got in a piece. And when somebody rings me on the phone now, I don't hide, I go oh, someone wants to talk to me. You know like I don't have fear around being in front of my parents because I know I haven't lied about anything.

Speaker 1: 46:27

Yeah, and and that's taking time, trust me, I still get that kind of like oh yeah, I get the trigger response where it's like, oh, have I done something wrong?

Speaker 2: 46:34

100, but it's better than it was and that's great, and I my favorite thing about sobriety probably has to be that when I put my head on the pillow, I know hand on heart that I have done my damnedest to have a good, honest day. Now, that doesn't mean that I've eaten five vegetables, because, you know, that doesn't mean I've had my turmeric um, not yet but it does mean that I spent that whole day being honest, being um approachable, being present and making the best decision right there in that moment for me and for, you know, the people that surround me. And if that isn't what we should all be aiming for at the end of every day, then I don't know what is. That is what I would would tell my 14-year-old self and I would tell her to fuck off because she's freaking me out.

Speaker 2: 47:24

Stop floating over my bed.

Speaker 1: 47:27

One of my saddest moments, when I look back at it, mid-addiction was I just had a massive argument with someone and I was sat down outside a pub and I can remember I looked at them and I just said I'm fucking tired.

Speaker 2: 47:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:41

And their response was literally just I know, and that was it. Yeah, and I don't talk to that person anymore, but I look back at that and I'm like, oh Jesus, you fucking idiot. But I'm glad it all happened, because if I had successfully moderated drinking during my last bath with alcoholism, because mine kind of was like, oh, I drink a lot, I drink a lot, I drink a, I drink a lot.

Speaker 1: 48:09

Oh, no, I'm a little bit better fuck I drink a lot I drink a lot, I drink a lot, and it was like it would keep going. It was like a roller coaster oh god, yeah, exactly without my sobriety, I wouldn't have anything that I have right now um 100.

Speaker 2: 48:21

Yeah, I just wouldn't, so I'm, so we both could have had another 15 years of mediocre life, with meaningless connections with um, mediocre bank balances although mine is actually lower than other um, but we with with completely inauthentic relationships and connections with anybody around us, with fear in our hearts.

Speaker 2: 48:42

But do you know what we would never have gotten. And again, I think there's an episode that I did right at the beginning of my podcast called do you have to be an alcoholic to stop drinking? And it's like exactly that. At what point do you decide that you're sick and tired of how your life is running? You don't have to wait for everything to be on fire. I wish personally I had stopped years before, because you're right, if, if it hadn't gotten as bad, I would have just continued being a hospitality drinker, which, let me on it which is a seven day a week drinker without anybody really raising an eyebrow, and it means that I would have missed out on the most incredible last. I think I'll be a thousand days sober in a few, like a couple of weeks time, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:25

Might have to get that tattooed back on my lower back or something classy, right, and the things that I've experienced. I've been on holidays. I've never, ever been on a holiday with just like my gal pals. I've done a couple of gal pal holidays. I've never done that before. I've never had the finances, the time or the friends. You know I've been on family holidays and I've been able to be present and I've learned boundaries. You know I've been on family holidays and I've been able to be present and I've learned boundaries. You know I've managed to take myself away from situations that aren't to do with me and you know it's stuff like that. Like I can, most of the time, look after myself at a pretty decent level. I've got a sausage dog that I haven't killed, which I've got plants no I've got fucking.

Speaker 2: 50:07

Yeah, you've got a plant in the hospital right now, but I can see the rest of them. It's shit like that, you know.

Speaker 1: 50:12

Yeah yeah, I, I had a honest, heart-to-heart chat with a tory councillor that came knocking on my door um a couple of days ago and it wasn't just like a fuck off, it was an honest. You know, I vote labor, I always have vote labor. I am likely to vote labor, but thank you you know nice and I thought, I closed the door and I thought do you know what man you've grown?

Speaker 1: 50:40

you've grown too much like you might think this guy's a piece of shit, but you didn't tell him that and that's all that matters.

Speaker 2: 50:48

I mean, some people would argue that that's a shame, um, but you've lost that see, it's obviously it's local elections and I used to.

Speaker 1: 50:58

I actually stood for labor um once yeah, stood for labor in local elections, um, like just council elections, not, not as a fucking MP or anything. God, can you imagine that?

Speaker 2: 51:09

Oh my God, it wouldn't be a lawsuit.

Speaker 1: 51:19

I mean you probably didn't drink enough to be an MP is that the majority of the councillors Tory or Labour, and certainly in the ward that I live. They are just trying to do good things for local communities, so him being a Tory councillor it's just like the chances are. It's just your parents were just a little bit fucking backwards and that's why you vote Labour Not Labour. Oh God, don't quote me on that. That's why you decided to stand for the tories.

Speaker 2: 51:53

Um, you know, and that's just how it is, but yeah look at that you just accepted him well, you just accepted him to come as he is, and still didn't fucking vote for him, though did I, nope no, but you know, I think there is some semblance of growth there yeah, that's it. I didn't call him a cunt amazing, and that's look, if that's all we're aiming for this podcast as well. So that's, that's your accolade I know, yeah, I do still have quite a potty mouth, but you know oh, someone said to me at work the other day that's bad, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 52:26

but someone at work said do you realize how much you swear? And I was like no, um, yeah, you swear a lot. I was like oh, oh.

Speaker 2: 52:37

I love a good swear word. I love, I love language. I love the power of language. I love the fact that sounds and letters create such reactions. Yeah, I think that it's fascinating and it's a human construct.

Speaker 1: 52:52

How are you so triggered by this?

Speaker 2: 52:53

a hundred percent, and it's like everyone's all woke no, it is. I think it's absolutely fact and actually, you know, another great thing about being in sobriety is that you get shit like your vocab back. You know, like it's amazing that you can actually get your brain back. Yeah, like that was a big surprise. I didn't realise how low-functioning my brain was.

Speaker 1: 53:18

Yeah, and going bright red when you're confronted with anything. What's that about? Like you know, at work, when you're sat there and someone's like right, I need to talk to you about something and when I was a drinker, I could feel my ears burning. Yeah, now it's just like okay. What should we talk about?

Speaker 2: 53:34

I mean, I still get the shits. It depends on when it's. It's that classic, like you know monday, let's have a chat on wednesday.

Speaker 1: 53:41

You know great, wonderful great just to confirm.

Speaker 2: 53:44

I will be now having a mental breakdown for 48 hours, eating my body weight in quavers and probably not showering because I am in trauma response. But sure, sure, steve, I'll see you Wednesday.

Speaker 1: 53:58

Oh God, yeah, this is the side of sobriety that nobody talks about.

Speaker 2: 54:03

Well, that's it. Because you can't then numb it out, you have to sit in the dirty stickiness that is waiting for steve to say what the fucking wants from you, um, but do you know what's the sobriety?

Speaker 2: 54:15

that's a yeah, title isn't it but again, you know, I don't know about you, but like, sometimes, like I went to, I live by the sea um, I sat by on the sand the other day and I sat and I experienced happiness, and it's like we can name these emotions. Now I was like, wow, this is what happy feels like. This is what fear feels like. You know, this is what anger feels like, and it's it's literally. They say that you, when you stop drinking, you kind of go to the age that you were when you started drinking, type thing, which is really interesting. Um, and it is kind of you relearn emotions that you've spent your entire life pushing down and and it's quite overwhelming at times, but at the same times it's kind of you're almost grateful for it. You're like I feel anxious. Why do I feel anxious? Oh, this is why, and being able to kind of like pull apart those emotions instead of going, oh, I feel something quick, you know, it's a privilege.

Speaker 1: 55:15

It is a privilege. It is a privilege and I'm very pleased that you've been able to get to where you are, because three years is well a thousand days.

Speaker 2: 55:24

Yeah, I'll be three years in September, so I should probably stop saying I'm three years, because it's still quite a way away.

Speaker 1: 55:29

Well, who knows when this episode's coming out?

Speaker 2: 55:32

That is true.

Speaker 1: 55:33

Might be four years by the time I've edited it. Well, I was going to say All the penis talk and the toilet talk and the you know dropping the C-bomb talking about T tories, if it's anything like my timeline. It will be out in um november 2025 yeah, I cannot believe rishi sunak won that election. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me and for thank you the journey that is, you know, teacher to student to student to teacher or whatever it is there's a there's an analogy there.

Speaker 1: 56:09

I can't remember what it was, but I was on your podcast. Now you've been on mine.

Speaker 2: 56:13

The circle is complete the master has become the musty, something like that yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 56:19

Oh well, maybe the master has become the masturbator oh, always heck well on that note right I'm gonna go right now because I've got something very pressing to attend to amazing I'll catch you very soon, thanks.

Speaker 1: 56:37

thank you for listening to this week's episode of the sober boozers club podcast. My name is ben gibbs. You can find me at the sober booz Club. For more information on Shell and we Recover Loudly, head to wwwwerecoverloudlycom. You can listen to her podcast after you listen to mine. You can find her on Instagram. You can join the community and I really hope that it's useful to you and that you enjoy all of her episodes, especially the one with me in it. For now, thank you very much again for listening. My name's Ben Gibbs. I've already said that I'll catch you very soon.