Kevin from Muskoka Landscapers shares his journey from high school dropout to successful business owner in the landscaping industry. He discusses his transition from working in the golf industry to starting his own business, the challenges of entrepreneurship, and the importance of relationships in business. Kevin also provides insights into project management, equipment management, and the use of software for organization and communication. Kevin's wisdom is from another world!
Muskoka Landscaping Website: https://muskokalandscapers.ca
Muskoka Landscaping Instagram: @muskokalandscapers.ca
Takeaways
Keywords
landscaping, entrepreneurship, business growth, project management, equipment management, software, relationship building
Kevin from Muskoka Landscapers shares his journey from high school dropout to successful business owner in the landscaping industry. He discusses his transition from working in the golf industry to starting his own business, the challenges of entrepreneurship, and the importance of relationships in business. Kevin also provides insights into project management, equipment management, and the use of software for organization and communication. Kevin's wisdom is from another world!
Muskoka Landscaping Website: https://muskokalandscapers.ca
Muskoka Landscaping Instagram: @muskokalandscapers.ca
Takeaways
Keywords
landscaping, entrepreneurship, business growth, project management, equipment management, software, relationship building
Enmanuel Tejada (00:01.275)
So we're recording, pull this up. Cool. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Digital Toolbox Podcast. This is a podcast where we bring on owners of businesses in the hardscape, landscape, and lawn care space. And today we have a very, very special guest. We have Kevin from Muskoka Landscapers. Kevin, introduce yourself.
Kevin (00:13.678)
Yeah, hi. Kevin Scott, Muskoka Landscapers. I've been in business 17 years and we're all about Muskoka and landscaping in Muskoka.
Enmanuel Tejada (00:33.659)
Yes sir, yes sir, and Kevin, I mean, I gotta ask you, you've built quite an empire, quite an empire, so before we even talk about how you started this thing, who was Kevin Scott in high school?
Kevin (00:46.669)
In high school, Kevin Scott was worried about three things, girls cars and the odd beer. I honestly, I didn't finish high school. I quit high school in grade 12 and began working in the landscape industry and actually in the golf industry, golf construction. But I played a lot of sports. I played lacrosse until I was 21, still play hockey now.
loved to golf, but a lot of that started in my high school days.
Enmanuel Tejada (01:21.435)
Wow, that's awesome. That's awesome. And when you say that you were working in the golf industry, what were you doing specifically?
Kevin (01:27.276)
Golf construction, so that was mid to late 90s where there was a large golf boom in Canada and certainly in Ontario there was a lot of new construction going on all the way up to about 2008 which is when we started in business 2007 -2008. So a lot of new golf course construction, so a lot of the shaping, the clearing of the earth, sodding, irrigation, seeding.
Some maintenance, usually we were trying to turn them over for maintenance, but Club House Construction, that was kind of a site super that looked after a little bit of everything.
Enmanuel Tejada (02:04.955)
that's interesting. And you know what, Kevin, would you mind if I ask you, because I didn't think about it, but yeah, those golf courses do need irrigation and a lot of it because they're huge. So how does that work? Like how annoying is it to do irrigation for a golf course?
Kevin (02:13.675)
Right?
Kevin (02:19.115)
Well, it's easier than you think. I mean, if you picture a residential project, you know, an existing city property and multiply the size of it by hundreds and hundreds of acres. But, you know, big retention ponds, big main lines, smaller lines in the fairways around the greens. And it was amazing the evolution of irrigation and golf as golf became more and more prevalent in the 90s and just how pristine everybody wanted them to be.
Irrigation really was kind of at the forefront of making improvements for maintenance and quality of turf and quality of the green surfacing, how well they would receive a ball. There was a lot of technology that went into it. But honestly, very similar to residential irrigation, just bigger pipe.
Enmanuel Tejada (03:07.355)
Bigger pipe, wow, that's super interesting actually. You made me think about that for a second, like, you're right, there is irrigation, and a lot of it, because it has to be perfect. Man, and so Kevin, so how did you go from, okay, you dropped out of high school, you started working in the landscaping and the golf industry. How did you transition over to start in your own business?
Kevin (03:15.562)
Right, right?
Kevin (03:28.489)
Yeah, so I worked for a company. I actually went back to school and got a horticulture degree through an apprenticeship program that was offered in Ontario. And when I came out of that program, I got a job with a company called Gate and Malloy that was heavily into the golf construction boom. When I started there, there was roughly 90 employees. It grew to about 400 in the 10 years that I was there. But...
because I was kind of thrown in, I shouldn't say thrown in, but I became a site super because the company grew so quickly, probably earlier than I should have. But once I became a site super, I was managing 80 to 100 people on site, a lot of trades. But then I was also starting to manage budgets, doing more scheduling, more long -term scheduling, and working with the office more. And that kind of, I really liked the...
Enmanuel Tejada (04:04.283)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (04:24.712)
I really liked the challenge of the goal setting towards a budget or towards a price. And that was kind of where the bug kind of got started for me. And then kind of 10 years into that, we had a young family. We were living in Toronto. My family all lived in Muskoka. My wife's family had recently moved to Muskoka. And I just knew it was something I always wanted to do. And I was kind of at that, I always think I was 33, 34 years old. And...
in a very good position. I had an excellent job there and I loved it. Good pension, truck, you know, all the things you'd want with a good job. But I wanted to try it. And I think, like I said earlier, when I did try, it was more because I thought I would make more money. It wasn't necessarily that I thought I would have more freedom or become a business owner or, you know, get into all the other things that I'm into business -wise now. But after three, four or five years of being in business,
I slowly started to collect and learn and really got excited about being an entrepreneur more than I was a landscaper.
Enmanuel Tejada (05:29.275)
Wow, that's super cool. That is super cool. And at the time you were 33 years old, so you already had your kids, you already had your family set in a way. Were you scared in any way or did you feel more pressure because you had that in place?
Kevin (05:40.774)
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think my oldest was five and my youngest was two. But again, like great company to work for, great wage, great truck benefits, pension, like everything, you know, dental, like all of it was was tough to leave. But fortunately, the company that I worked for, we were doing a golf project in Muskoka.
There was a private lake at the back of the golf course. I had built a great relationship with the owner through the construction of the golf course. So when I started the business, we were able to land some great projects right out of the gate on this private lake with people that we already knew who paid well. So the transition was very scary, but the scariness ended very quickly.
Enmanuel Tejada (06:32.827)
Cause projects started coming in. Yeah. So that fear was almost like, wow, okay, cool. And how different was, cause you were already working with the office, you were working, you were already managing projects. So how different was that for your own business? Did you, did you still struggle or was it rather easier for you?
Kevin (06:50.98)
It was a lot different when it's your own money. It's a lot tougher to make decisions. But funny, I say that still now all the time at the office, it's easy to make decisions when you have money in the bank. And you tend to make the right ones. But yeah, it was definitely a learning curve. And there's a lot of ins and outs with taxes and how do you pay yourself and do you pay yourself and...
Enmanuel Tejada (06:54.971)
Hahaha!
Kevin (07:20.196)
How much money do I leave in for this? And what's the backup fund? And especially when you're a new business and you're buying new equipment and vehicles. And I can remember like the first few checks we got were like for 16 to $20 ,000 every couple of weeks from this first project we were doing. And I thought, man, this is incredible. Look at all the money we're making. And then as time goes on, you start to realize,
Yeah, you had no overhead, you weren't paying yourself. A couple of the guys were using their own trucks. There was all these things that made it seem greater than it was. And again, that's part of the learning. When you start doing things well and having proper systems and the right insurance and the right trailers and the right trucks and equipment, those costs add up.
So you gotta know your numbers. And I would say for the first four or five years, I was just lucky enough that we were always busy, never really trying to grow, it just kinda happened. So a lot of it was pretty organic and so was my learning. More out of necessity, not because I was trying to.
You know, which isn't ideal because I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes along the way as well.
Enmanuel Tejada (08:38.299)
Wow, that's fun.
Enmanuel Tejada (08:45.755)
100 % and that's kind of that's the fear about entrepreneurship. It's something that I think about because I like I'm 24 and I'm relatively new in my business compared to yours, right? And I always listen to mentors and they always say, you know, it's scary because you're doing things and you don't exactly know if it's gonna work or not until a couple years down the line and then you find out so it's fucking scary, you know, it's like damn this is gonna work. Am I doing the right thing? Did you ever feel like that when you were running your business at first?
Kevin (09:01.314)
Yeah, lots of times. And I mean, I can't tell you how many times our first five years or six years, we were always in our line of credit, right? We were always overextended. We were way too courteous about waiting to get paid. You know,
Enmanuel Tejada (09:22.843)
Mm.
Kevin (09:28.513)
out of fear of upsetting somebody rather than saying, like, it's time to pay, or I'm not coming back until you pay. That kind of thing gets easier as you move forward. But yeah, it's a scary thing. I've been in business 17 years now and you still have moments, I wouldn't say scared, but.
Enmanuel Tejada (09:35.835)
Right.
Kevin (09:50.433)
you're protective or you anticipate, you know, right now I'm not sure what it's like in Jersey, but our market here has really slowed down. Certainly outside of the Muskoka area where we are in a little bit of a bubble. But you know, as recently as yesterday, I had other contractors that I know calling me looking for work because they're very limited on what they have right now. So I'm thankful to have been proactive. Pardon me.
Enmanuel Tejada (10:16.603)
Why is that happening right now? Why is that happening right now?
Kevin (10:22.464)
Well, in Canada, our interest rates are through the roof right now. Inflation was through the roof. It's slowly coming down, but interest rates haven't. So you have this large portion of the population that's not spending anymore. So, you know, there's a lot of companies as an example in the city that during COVID were specializing in two to $300 ,000 backyards where they would do fiberglass pool, little cabana.
some interlock patio, fire pit, maybe an outdoor kitchen, and that was their gig. And they were pumping those things out everywhere. Well, now there's none of those going on, right? Because people in that market have pulled back because their interest rates are so high. You know, and depending on how you're mortgaged, it can make a big difference.
Enmanuel Tejada (11:13.883)
Wow, yeah, I could, 100%. I mean, yeah, it's kind of similar here because now they're saying that fast food is like a luxury item. Like even that getting more expensive and that the people with higher incomes, a lot of them are starting to shop at things like Walmart, which are more expensive, more cheap, more affordable. Before they would go and shop at higher, more expensive places. Now they're coming to the cheaper, more affordable places. So that's kind of.
Kevin (11:22.847)
Right.
Kevin (11:32.607)
Right.
Enmanuel Tejada (11:39.003)
Interesting and you're absolutely right. I mean and also hardscape being it's really not a necessity, right? It's it's it's a want so people are going to put necessities on top of that So man, yeah, I can imagine but I mean you guys being so big. I'm sure you guys are already booked out for quite some time So so how are you guys how booked are you guys right now actually?
Kevin (11:45.438)
Right.
Kevin (11:59.998)
We're booked for the season. We've got a little bit of room in the fall that we could probably fit in another project or a small project. But I would say that's not unusual for us to be booked out a year, year and a half, even longer for some projects, depending on what stage we get involved at. But we're definitely seeing like a lot more price checking, not as frequent new estimates coming in the door. And certainly,
Enmanuel Tejada (12:07.195)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (12:29.469)
projects that are smaller or on projects where people may have a mortgage because, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of the big projects that we do, properties that are in the 10 to $25 million range, there's likely not a mortgage. If there is, it's minimal. So those types of projects are still forging ahead because the people have the money to do it. It's more of the people that have bought, say, like a $3 million cottage, had to mortgage some of it.
they're now not spending an extra couple hundred grand on fixing up the landscaping. So those jobs have kind of dried up and I think that's why we're seeing kind of that slowdown for some of the guys that specialize in that type of work.
Enmanuel Tejada (13:13.595)
Wow, that's super interesting. And right there, you mentioned that depending on what stage you guys come in at, you guys are able to move things forward. So does that mean that you guys don't always start from the very beginning, from the initial site visit consultation? You guys sometimes pick up projects that are left over that weren't finished by other contractors?
Kevin (13:32.379)
No, I mean more because we still do get calls on projects that are maybe half complete, like as far as the building goes. But locally in our municipality, you now need a site plan agreement before you can get a building permit. And the site plan agreement is basically a design of what you're going to do landscaping wise, where you're going to replant, what sort of vegetation, what part of it's native, what type of trees are you using.
Enmanuel Tejada (13:41.787)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (14:02.171)
So we're getting a lot more building architects and builders coming to us to help them through that process with the township. So now we're getting involved before the building's even started. So when that, you know, and then you build a relationship with the customer through that process, help them get their building permit, and then that typically rolls right into landscape design. And then, so now you're forecasting stuff that you're not even going to start for a year, right, until the building's farther along. So it's...
Enmanuel Tejada (14:12.699)
wow.
Kevin (14:31.674)
It's been a bit of a new process for everybody in the past three or four years, but I would say for forecasting and for business, it's been good for us because we do design build. We are fortunate that we get a lot of people come for help with design.
Enmanuel Tejada (14:47.739)
That's beautiful. Like imagine, like I know a lot of the contractors that are listening in, like guys, just like imagine like you're, you're getting calls before the building is even done asking for help. How do we do this? How do we do that? And like, like Kevin said, you probably end up a lot of the time building a relationship with them. And when the building is done, they're going to call you to handle the landscaping because they're going to be, that's the guy that helped us out. Let's go with them. So that's all of them.
Kevin (15:09.049)
Right, yeah, it makes it a much easier conversation, that's for sure. And it's a lot easier to negotiate as well, you know, like it's your job to lose.
Enmanuel Tejada (15:21.691)
What do you mean by that? It's your job to lose.
Kevin (15:23.513)
Well, if you've already built the relationship through the site plan approval process and the landscape design, you've already got a connection. So, you know, unless you really botch the estimate or try and overcharge, you're likely going to get the project because you already have that connection. You understand their vision, what they're after. We've probably had them do a few sites to look at scope and understand how things are budgeted and how things are priced.
Enmanuel Tejada (15:29.691)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (15:52.184)
Because here, like in our market, in the projects we work on, you know, a lot of our stuff is anywhere from say half a million to two million for a landscape project. So it's really nice to get customers out. Because I think, and I'm sure you know this in your business too, like people get sticker shocked if you start showing a bunch of pictures and saying, you know, this is what we're going to do. I love that. I love that. I love that. And then you build your estimate and they're like, wow.
That's five times as much as I thought it was going to be. But by getting them out to projects and being able to show them this job was 700 ,000, this job was one and a half million, they kind of get a better sense of what they're doing on their property, what they like and don't like, speeds up the design process, but also they don't get that holy shit factor when they get their estimate, right? They've already got a sense of where they're going to be.
I think it's a mistake a lot of small businesses make is they don't, they don't, not that all customers need to be educated, but you need to walk them through the process of how things are priced, what they're going to cost, what they're worth and why some things are better than others, you know, or why things are more expensive than others. And I think that holds true for any business, whether it, you know, you're selling jeans or you're laying stone.
Enmanuel Tejada (16:51.931)
God, that's a great thing.
Kevin (17:21.078)
I think preparing them for where their estimate could be is a good thing to practice.
Enmanuel Tejada (17:30.299)
I agree with you a thousand percent and you actually just give me the idea because you're right. I do get a lot of sticker shock and it's like, you're going to charge me this much for a website and for running these ads. and then I have to kind of work on, okay, well if you spend 10 ,000 to make a million dollars, would you do it? So like I have to break it down there, but you're right. If, if, if I was to start incorporating,
Before we even get to the see them seeing the price. I'm just mentioning all this caused this or this project was that so how early on do you start doing that with your customers?
Kevin (17:59.509)
Pretty early. I mean, I would say if we haven't been through the state plan process with them and say they've got a project on the go, it's half built and they call us to get involved with design. We just, you know, inevitably every first meeting before you've even started the design is like, so what do you think it's going to cost? You know, they want to get a sense of what it's going to be. And I usually just start with like, you know,
Enmanuel Tejada (18:12.955)
Mm -hmm.
Enmanuel Tejada (18:24.475)
for her.
Kevin (18:29.717)
We roughly looked at about 3000 feet of flagstone today. That's a hundred bucks a square foot. Then you got planting, you got irrigation, you got lighting, you got the spa, you've got stairs, you got the outdoor kitchen. Like, and you know, things like.
I try and keep it a little bit vague because there's a lot of variance and when you say outdoor kitchen, it could be 30 grand or 200 grand depending on what they want. So often what we do now when we're building our estimates is we have templates for different kitchens and different appliances within the kitchens. So they pick the budget. We don't, you know, cause inevitably I could say, your kitchen's going to be 30 grand.
but then they want a Kalamazoo grill and you know, it's a big wraparound with a seating area and barbecue and a pizza oven and you know, it's a hundred grand. And then I, you know, we look bad because we didn't budget enough. So now we have them pick the budget at the beginning. You want to carry 30 ,000, 50 ,000, 80 ,000. Because inevitably you take that same person to a few kitchen suppliers and they pick the nicest stuff.
You know, so it's, it's, and I'm sure it's the same with your business. Like you start telling people what you can do for them and how you can do it. And they're like, yeah, I want, I want to do that. And I want, I want to make a million bucks and I want all the stuff that comes with great marketing. but man, I didn't think it was going to be that much. So if they, if they have a sense of it, at the get -go, I think it just goes much smoother. They, they built, they trust you a little bit more. You're honest with them.
Enmanuel Tejada (20:00.827)
Yeah.
Kevin (20:12.146)
gives them a little bit more input on how to control things. Yeah, I think it's a good tool that's underutilized by a lot of businesses.
Enmanuel Tejada (20:22.363)
I agree. I agree with that. And you just want to be dinged back. Actually. Do you know who Alex Ramuse is actually? He's, he's a, he's, he's an entrepreneur, a serial entrepreneur. He's actually, he's like a multimillionaire and he, his business is now acquiring other businesses. So he puts out a lot of free content so that business owners can.
Kevin (20:29.105)
I don't.
Enmanuel Tejada (20:42.619)
Implement the content and then grow their business so that one day he can acquire them. That's his play and He's a wise guy and he beat that example that you mentioned made me think of him because he has an example where if you think of like a frozen yogurt or like an ice cream shop if They have the ice cream bowl in their hand and they fill it for you They put you know that you have tell them all I want chocolate and they put chocolate in there and then they tell you it's eight dollars They're like wow eight dollars. That's a lot of money. But then if they give you the cup
Kevin (20:47.345)
Okay.
Enmanuel Tejada (21:10.587)
And then you walk around and you pull the levers. I want this, I want this, I want this. And then you come up to the front and you say, they tell you, it's $8. They're like, shit, you know, it's worth it though, because I picked it. Like I had control over it. I put it in there, so I should pay it now. Yeah, it made me think of that right there. That's funny.
Kevin (21:21.52)
All right.
Yeah, it's a good analogy. I like that.
Kevin (21:29.392)
Alright, nice.
Enmanuel Tejada (21:31.131)
And by the way Kevin I was looking at your website earlier and you guys have the stages broken down very very professionally I must say so can you guide us through like let's say that I'm a customer and I want a project done Can you guide us start to finish how that looks like for you guys? Just so that because because a lot of the contractors here They're a little bit smaller and they may not know how the big guys that you guys are doing it So like let's walk through an example right so like I want an outdoor kitchen. I want a patio. That's all you know
Kevin (21:49.136)
The next step is to visit the site. I always like to go to the site and meet with the customer. And I think from there, you really get a good sense of what they are, what they're looking for. You can tell what the building's like.
Enmanuel Tejada (22:01.147)
What's the next step?
Enmanuel Tejada (22:09.019)
Hmm.
Kevin (22:18.415)
If you meet inside, it's always nice to get inside and have a look at kind of what's in the house to get a better sense of their flair, what sort of appliances they have, and just get a better sense of them. And then through conversation, you can usually find out a lot more about kids and the ages and how much do you entertain and what sort of space are you looking for and how do you think you'll use it? And have you seen things in the past that you've liked?
So it's more of a conversation just to try and figure out what to suggest to them and where to start. And then from there, it's really, you know, we roll into design. We get a design contract set up for what we think the design is going to be worth. We get that approved and paid. You know, we go through the design process, which is usually a little back and forth, you know, a couple reiterations of change this or I don't like that or make this bigger.
And one of the things, you know, for a kitchen and a patio, I probably wouldn't go through this part of the process, but if it was a full landscape job, we would then take them to sites before we started the design. Cause then you can really get into the nitty gritty of, this is a five foot pathway. These are quarter inch joints. Do you like the size of the joint? This, these ones are poly, these ones are quarter inch chip and get really into the details so that now your designers aren't doing things that they're not going to like.
You know, they've already picked it. They've got a good sense of the size. Do you like the feel of this size of patio? How much furniture do you want on it? So taking them to other projects and the same on the kitchen and patio idea, I would still take them to our kitchen suppliers because then now they're really in charge of, you know, what sort of cabinetry do they like? Is there going to be some masonry components? What are the appliances that are going to go in? How big are they going to be? Like, do we need a
Enmanuel Tejada (23:47.707)
I see.
Kevin (24:16.941)
36 inch grill or a 54 inch grill. And here's the associated pricing. And then yeah, basically once all that research and collection is done, we pump out the design, get that finalized, get the quote prepared, get a contract, get a deposit, schedule the work, and then at some point execute the work, get them paid, get the customer happy.
Make sure they know how to use everything and maintain everything properly And then we do you know, what once it's all done and kind of the handshakes are finished the projects over often projects get extended and things get added and you know, so it doesn't necessarily end with one project but We always like to do a one -year inspection as well So whenever we've completed the project the project manager on the job will put into his phone the date that they completed
and then they'll put a one year reminder in for site visit at, you know, Manny's place. And then we'll just set that up. We'll go back and just see like, is it working out the way you want it? Is there anything wrong? Would you change anything? If their patio, maybe a stone's moved or something, we'll tweak that up for them and free of charge, yeah. Yeah.
Enmanuel Tejada (25:33.691)
free of charge or is there a fee for that?
wow, that's amazing. You see, and something like that, I can imagine, really reassures a client knowing that the company's gonna come back. And if something's wrong, they'll take a look at it, because they don't want to feel like, they just took my money, now they're gone, and now I'm screwed. Nobody likes to feel like that.
Kevin (25:50.73)
Yeah, nobody wants to feel like that. And I think it just reassures them that you're, you know, you want to make sure that they're still happy with it and that your work is held up well. And I also think it just keeps you that much fresher in their mind when they're at the next dinner party and somebody is looking for a landscaper or a new kitchen or whatever it might be.
Kevin (26:17.226)
Relationships. Relationships.
Enmanuel Tejada (26:17.371)
100%. 100%.
Enmanuel Tejada (26:23.003)
Relationships relationship relationship that is correct and talking about that Kevin. How do most of you guys's leads come in? Are you guys like mostly word of mouth or you guys getting leads from ads from your website your social media? I know you guys are putting out a lot more content. What does that look like?
Kevin (26:41.641)
Yeah, we do get a lot of leads from referrals, I'd say probably 90%. And often it's an email to me from a previous customer introducing a new customer. But we do get a lot from social as well, a lot from Insta. And those are generally like new calls or cold calls. And I'd say that, yeah, it could be 10 or 15 % of our business.
Kevin (27:11.785)
Did you catch that?
Enmanuel Tejada (27:13.563)
Okay, one second Kevin, I'm breaking up here. Okay, can you hear me?
Kevin (27:17.801)
Yep, yep.
Enmanuel Tejada (27:21.275)
Okay, perfect, perfect. Can you share that last part one last time? One last time, sorry about that.
Kevin (27:21.481)
Good.
Enmanuel Tejada (27:44.699)
Okay, can you hear me?
Kevin (27:44.869)
No. Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah, it's... What was the last thing?
Enmanuel Tejada (27:53.979)
Alright, I think it was, yes, how are you guys getting projects nowadays? You mentioned a lot of them are introductions from past clients.
Kevin (28:01.285)
Yeah, sorry. Yeah. So yeah, I would say like close to 90 % is referral base, where it's a customer, you know, sending me an email introducing another person or to their project manager if I wasn't involved or to one of the designers. The designers build a lot of great relationships as well. And then, yeah, probably 10 or 15 % of our work comes from Instagram, you know, or random people looking us up or finding us on socials.
Enmanuel Tejada (28:31.483)
Gotcha, man, that is awesome.
Kevin (28:31.684)
Which is great. Which is great. Yeah, it's huge. It's probably been like that for the past eight or nine years. And it's, yeah, it's the best setup you can have because you've already got a connection with the customer through your other customer.
Enmanuel Tejada (28:49.883)
1000 % Yeah, and there's nothing more like especially if it's a like a three -way introduction where like they're on the chat to like hey This is my friend and then her friend is you know, like this this person must be good. They're being introduced This is good. So I think it helps a lot more weight And talking about that Kevin actually so I know there's a lot of other Landscapers and hard capers in Canada that are doing amazing work and you guys are one of them, right? So how do you think that you guys stack when you look at somebody like Cardinal?
Kevin (28:57.891)
Yeah.
Enmanuel Tejada (29:18.331)
landscaping or one of those bigger guys.
Kevin (29:22.051)
Yeah, I mean, I think we're in a much different area. Their volume is likely much higher than ours. We tend to deal with, and I'm not saying that they don't, but our projects are relatively technical. There's usually pools and spas and saunas and kitchens and outdoor masonry and a large hardscape component, maybe even some buildings. And we really are lakefront, like that's our...
Enmanuel Tejada (29:46.779)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (29:51.778)
That's our niche is we're working the main three lakes in Muskoka. Often we're on some of the smaller lakes as well. But yeah, I think in comparison, we're just in a different market. You know, they're a lot more similar type of work in city properties and likely more volume than us where we tend to run with 33 to 35 people.
And we've kind of stuck to that for the past four or five years. It seems to be a bit of a sweet spot for us, plus sub trades.
Enmanuel Tejada (30:30.043)
Gotcha. And so that's 35 employees.
Kevin (30:32.385)
Yes. Yeah.
Enmanuel Tejada (30:34.427)
Wow, that's awesome. And in the majority of those are those field guys or are they back office people?
Kevin (30:39.905)
We've got three designers and then three other people that do accounting administration, our GMs in the office. And then the PMs are kind of in and out as their days go on, depending on what they're working on or if they're working on estimates, they're usually in the office. But yeah, the balance would be field staff. So likely 26, 27 in the field.
Enmanuel Tejada (31:07.163)
That's amazing, man. That is awesome. And what does a typical project, cause the things that you guys do, like, like that's the one thing I've noticed too. You guys tend to have like more or less, you guys tend to have more things in one project than other companies that I've seen. Like you guys, when, when there's a patio, there's probably going to be outdoor kitchen. There's probably going to be a pool. There's probably going to be a spa. So you guys have a lot going on. So what does the average job, how many employees does it take?
Kevin (31:26.944)
Right.
Kevin (31:33.408)
Yeah, it can vary and a lot of it varies on schedule. We generally operate with three person crews, but often we'll double up or triple up when we can, depending on the scale of the project. One of the things that we run into a lot in Muskoka because of elevation or logistics and trees, because most of the areas that we're working in are fairly forested, is we're working our way out of an area. You know, we're starting at the boathouse, working our way up to the cottage and around the cottage.
Enmanuel Tejada (31:56.251)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (32:02.943)
So access is often an issue. So it's not every project that we can put multiple crews on. Just logistically, there just isn't room to work without cutting yourself off. But yeah, I would say most projects are three to six people and then sub trades. We sub our masonry, we sub our concrete work, we'll sub the outdoor kitchens, irrigation and lighting we do in -house.
planting and everything we do in -house. Sometimes we sub it depending on the scope. Like if it's a really big planting job, we'll sub that in. And a lot of that depends on what labour we have available too. But yeah, that's kind of it in a nutshell.
Enmanuel Tejada (32:42.299)
Mm -hmm.
Enmanuel Tejada (32:52.155)
And what about tools Kevin? That's one thing I wanted to ask you about I know that you guys always have the option to rent tools But when do you guys know when you want to buy some sort of big machinery or whether you want to rent it out? What's how do you decide that?
Kevin (33:07.55)
We don't often rent. Every crew has a site trailer or container and it's kind of outfitted with everything that they could need on just about any project. And it's got a fridge and a coffee maker, microwave, that kind of thing so that they're self -sufficient on site, battery chargers and stuff to charge tools. But yeah, I think...
Enmanuel Tejada (33:23.483)
You
Enmanuel Tejada (33:31.675)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (33:37.789)
Yeah, rentals, the only thing we would really rent often is like a big bull mag to like compact a court, a tennis court or something like that. Maybe a big hammer drill if we had to drill a bunch of rock. But we have two or three of those in house, it really depends on where they are. So we don't really rent too much. Sometimes a larger excavator, we might need like a 20 ton or something to move some rock or set a big wall. Barges, we rent a lot of barges for island work.
Enmanuel Tejada (34:03.131)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (34:07.676)
But that's about it. And it's not very often. Like, I bet you we don't spend more than 100 grand a year on rentals.
Enmanuel Tejada (34:16.891)
wow, that's cool to know actually that's a that's a that put a big visual on it. So that's cool So you guys pretty much have everything and like you said like you may have for example Three of those big jackhammers to like, you know split rock big rocks But you have three of them and even though you're not using them You can you know, maybe have a guy go pick it up or maybe have them drop it off something like that So you guys quote it? Internally like that and that actually leads me to my next question. How do you guys all stay on the same page? Do you guys use any CRMs or any software?
Kevin (34:32.028)
Right.
Kevin (34:44.443)
Yeah, we use a product called LMN, Landscape Management Network is our software program. So we do all of our estimating, all of our time tracking, job costing, time sheets, like all the guys use it for their time sheets and payroll. But that's about it, to be honest. We have a couple of little things that we do. Monday mornings, everybody meets at the yard. And that's usually when there's a safety talk.
Enmanuel Tejada (35:02.747)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (35:13.467)
Guys restock their bins, whether it's paint, filter cloth, any specialty items they might need from the yard. They get restocked on like coffee and cold drinks and protein bars and stuff like that for their bin. We have a person at the yard that kind of gets things ready for each crew based on what they like. And then we have Tuesday morning scheduling meeting every Tuesday at nine o 'clock with the office and PMs.
But I tell you one of the biggest things we've ever used and this is free and anybody who's not using it in the construction world is Missing out. It's called the for it. It's called the for it for we call it the for it free But it's a it's an app that the guys can download and it it's four questions every day It's and so this is them answering these questions and sending it to their project manager. I get them and our GM gets them and it's
What did I get completed today? What am I doing tomorrow? What do I need from you? Meaning like what they need from us from the office or operations and what's blowing you down. So with those four questions, they've kind of already answered what they, we know what they need, if anything, they know what they need for the next day. We know what they've done. So when we have eight or 10 projects on the go, those four at threes alone,
Enmanuel Tejada (36:19.995)
Right.
Kevin (36:39.259)
I can spend a week in my office if I am, and I still know exactly where we are in every project. Right, because I'm getting four or five pictures of what they've worked on and of the site, and it's a very useful tool, and it's a free app.
Enmanuel Tejada (36:46.683)
Wow.
Enmanuel Tejada (36:57.243)
So how does it work? You download it on your phone? How does it know to send it to the project manager?
Kevin (37:02.683)
Yeah, so it's called the four at four. We call it the four at three because we felt like four o 'clock was too late in the day to get it in case they need something in the morning. So we at three o 'clock every day, all of our site supers sit down and fill that out and take some photos of what they've done. Or maybe it's a problem area or something they're struggling with, or a broken machine or could be anything in the photos. But yeah, they send that in every day at three o 'clock.
Enmanuel Tejada (37:21.947)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (37:29.371)
our operations manager, because it's usually him dealing with the answers for them. He tries to be in the office at three, and then he can start if he needs more delivery trucks or he needs to move a piece of machinery for somebody or somebody needs a chipper or an excavator or whatever it is, he's there to deal with it. But that is a very useful tool because it keeps between the Monday morning meeting and then the four at three every day, everybody's in touch all week.
Enmanuel Tejada (37:57.627)
Wow, that is super cool. That is super cool right there. I've actually never heard of anybody ever even mentioned that. But that's a great way to stay on track. And then what would you do? I guess you would update any information that you can on Element, and then that way.
Kevin (37:59.451)
Yeah.
Kevin (38:13.467)
Yeah, well, we do it right through the app. So like we can because it comes in an email, like an email form. So everybody that's on it can respond. Hey, looks great. Or I'll look after that for you or I'll be on site tomorrow to help you with that. Or the machine's going to be there at two o 'clock, whatever it is. So all that correspondence happens right away. So they have the answers they need. We know what they need. And then the next day, there's another one. So every day that they're working, we get one of those at three o 'clock.
Enmanuel Tejada (38:18.651)
Mm -hmm.
Kevin (38:44.219)
from every job.
Enmanuel Tejada (38:44.507)
Man, that is a beautiful way to stay organized and a beautiful way to go about it. I love the fact that you guys are using software, by the way. It's super cool. Super cool.
Kevin (38:53.659)
The other thing that it's very helpful with is the project managers then take the photos and put them into the customer file. So now we've got a, you know, four or five photos a day for the entire project. so at the end we've got hundreds and hundreds of photos, if not thousands that a year later, you know, the plumber hit the whatever, or somebody dug through the electrical line. We can probably have a photo that shows exactly where it is.
how deep it was, what was in it. So it's a great tool. It's a nice tool for as built too when a project's done. If you do as built, it's a great tool to show people where certain things are. So yeah, I can't say enough about it. It changed our business. We probably started using it seven years ago when it first came out, seven, eight years ago. And I would say that that is one of the, like it's free. It takes them two minutes to fill it out.
Enmanuel Tejada (39:36.923)
That's beautiful.
Kevin (39:52.091)
and you know exactly what's going on on their job, even if you're not there for a week or two.
Enmanuel Tejada (39:56.539)
Dude, yeah, 1000%, 1000%. And it's a great way to stay organized too. Those pictures for documentation purposes are worth, you can't put a value amount on that. That's super helpful, super helpful.
Kevin (40:10.331)
It's nice for the customer too, because on Fridays the project managers will send a customer update. So they'll include some of those photos from the week. You know, this is what was completed. This is what we need from you. This is what we're waiting for. Kind of get, it's kind of like a four and three for the customers on Fridays.
Enmanuel Tejada (40:27.119)
Man that is amazing and then one last thing Kevin because I do want to be respectful of your time here But if you were to start over what are some pieces of advice that you would give to yourself like a younger landscaper That's coming into the business Wanted to make a name for himself. Maybe he's just doing landscaping right now, but he wants to get into hardskeeping He wants to be doing those large projects one day. What advice would you give to a person like that?
Kevin (40:52.907)
I've been asked this before, I think I've got a few. I would have hired office staff sooner because I think I was working ridiculous hours. I wasn't good at it. I wasn't fast at it. And I'm talking like accounting, administration. You know, as the owner, your time is much better focused on other things. And when you hire somebody who does that all the time, even if it's a subcontractor.
They do a way better job and do it in half the time. So that would be one. Don't be afraid to hire. I think everybody gets afraid to hire office staff because they think of the cost rather than the savings or the accuracy that they'll bring. Yeah, I think that's one. I think honoring your work is a big one. Whether you lost money on the job or you're not gonna get paid to fix something that broke on you.
Honoring your work goes a long way. And I think just on a personal level, you just feel better. Even if the customer and you didn't get along or the problem caused an issue with you and the customer. I think going back and fixing it regardless of the relationship, there's a lot of value in that.
Enmanuel Tejada (42:10.491)
love it.
Kevin (42:13.115)
Yeah, and then I think too, I think one of the bigger things that's really helped us too is just more focus on staff, focus on the team more, like teams, number one, not profit, not customers, teams, number one. And if your team's strong and you have a great culture, you'll have happy customers and you'll make money.
Enmanuel Tejada (42:35.227)
Man, I love it. I love it. So let's recap on those. So you said, you mentioned, don't be afraid to sub out work. Don't be afraid to hire staff. You know, think about the savings, not about the cost. Value the work and value the relationship. Man.
Kevin (42:51.995)
Yeah, all those things are key. I mean, there's lots of things that are key, but those are some easy ones to do just by focusing on.
Enmanuel Tejada (43:02.619)
I love it man, I love it. And Kevin, man, you've been a pleasure to have on this podcast. Like you've dropped some serious gem for us and a lot of the landscapers are sitting in, maybe even some, some future customers that are maybe listening in as well. So I really, really appreciate your time, Kevin. How about amazing rest of your evening and, and, Kevin, if the audience wants to reach you, how can they, how can they reach you?
Kevin (43:22.011)
Yeah, my email is on social media if you go into our info, but I'm pretty easy to find, kevinatmoscocallandscapers .ca. But yeah, don't hesitate to reach out, happy to chat and thank you for today. It was fun, always love doing these things and love listening to your other episodes as well. It's a good thing you got going, it's awesome.
Enmanuel Tejada (43:42.171)
Thanks Kevin. It was a pleasure. My goal is to bring on guys like yourselves here so it's definitely working. So Kevin, I really appreciate you man. Take care, stay safe. Yes sir.
Kevin (43:51.407)
All right, Manning, cheers.