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Explore our website to discover our comprehensive course and training schedule.
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Agile Beatrice podcast today. Now, today, we're taking you on a journey into the heart of agile transformation, and we've got a powerhouse guest who is ready to spill the beans on all things agile. So get ready to buckle up for a rollercoaster ride of insights, wisdom and actionable strategies as you sit down with none other than Kemi Raji, a true trailblazer in the world of Agile, with a resume that reads like a love letter of Agile itself. A board member of the Agile Alliance, assistant to leadership coach and Agile coach extraordinaire and certified in more coaching methodologies that you can shake a backlog at. Kemi is here to share an unparalleled experience and first-hand experiences in adult transformation.
Temi:So we are diving deep into the trenches, exploring the challenges, the triumphs and the secrets to success in adult transformation. From navigating resistance to fostering the culture of continuous improvement. Kemi has seen it all, and she's here to spill the beans on how you can overcome any obstacle standing in the way of your dreams of agile transformation. So what am I telling you today? Grab your headphones, grab your favorite beverage, grab a pen and paper and get ready to take notes, because this is one conversation you won't want to miss. Kemi Raji is in the building and she's about to drop some adult truth bombs that will leave you on the edge of your seat, so stay tuned. Welcome Kemi. Everybody say hi to Kemi. Nice having you on with us today.
Kemmy:Thank you so much, David. I couldn't help but smile. I couldn't get the smile off my face.
Temi:Thank you, I'm sure you like the intro right. It's just what I got that, looking at your profile and seeing different spaces. You've been around for a while, you've done this stuff, you've handled it really well, so I'm hoping that we're able to you know, know, drop some nuggets for our listeners to learn, because there's so much to learn from you thank you very much.
Kemmy:Um, I'm still learning myself, so um, as much as I people learn from him, from me, I also learn from others, because you, you never know everything true, true and like I always tell the people I speak to, as a scrum, as an agile coach, you have to always be curious.
Temi:There's always a better way to do stuff and you always have to keep searching and because when you look at it in the complex space, right, the target is always moving. Oh yeah, I assume that, yeah, I've gotten it all. No, it's a complex space. It's always evolving.
Kemmy:Absolutely, and because you're working with people, people are very dynamic.
Temi:Okay, perfect, so let's go to our question. So can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Tell us about, tell us who is Kemeraji? I thought you already introduced me, no, but I couldn't possibly top that introduction okay, let's, let's make an attempt.
Kemmy:Let them hear from you who you are and all and what you do well, all right, okay, I I'm not the person that can freely and easily introduce myself. I need to kind of like, uh know where to start, but I, I would give it a go.
Kemmy:So okay yes, so where do I start? Um, I'm based in? Uh, toronto. No, I used to live in toronto, um, until december last year. Uh, I'm based in canada, uh, ontario, and I moved to windsor. Windsor is like 20 minutes away from detroit. We can actually see detroit, uh across the uh, yes, across the river, detroit river. It's a beautiful place. Um, I, I've worked as an Scrum Master I still call myself Scrum Master, but anyway, let's leave that.
Kemmy:Worked as an Agile coach for some time now and I love what I do. I got into Agile some years ago, haven't been a project manager for some time. I haven't been a project manager for some time and was getting really frustrated with the long process of delivery software or delivery products and services that I was working on with some other team. And got introduced to Agile, particularly Scrum, and I thought that's interesting. You mean you could deliver in small bytes, as I called it back then, and you deliver value. And I said yeah, and I started to look into it.
Kemmy:So I'm this sort of a person that if you ask me for something and I don't know, I have to get to the bottom of it. Something and I don't know, I have to get to the bottom of it. So I started to look into what scrum is, realized that there was even an umbrella called agile and some other spaces as well. So I focused on one thing at a time, got a job as a scrum master as well. So basically, um, loving what I do in supporting the teams, uh, and then, because I'm I always want to look for something new. I heard about agile coaching.
Kemmy:However, I did want to become an agile coach and that's why I still call myself a scrum master okay um, but I wanted to become an agile coach because I was working with this particular person and they were called senior, senior scrum master, chief scrum master I think that was what the title was chief scrum master, and the person was so bossy they would question every single thing the other scrum masters and myself because we were about four of us on that team. It was a large team and it was splitted into teams. We were building one single product but splitted into different teams and it was just chaos and I said, okay, so this is the job of a chief scrum master to push people around.
Kemmy:I don't want to push people around, but I want to do things differently. I want to be people around, but I want to do things differently. I want to be more empathetic, I want to be more welcoming and change things, because I didn't feel listened to and that's the whole reason I've become an agile coach. Yeah, so what else about me? I volunteer a lot within the community. You will find me speaking conferences. I haven't done that lately. Um and um. I'm on the board of agile alliance, um, and I review some. I review the coaching path, which is a ctc of scrum alliance. I'm one of the reviewers. What else do I do in the community? Um, I train and um. There is this initiative that I partner with some other folks who do, which is called agitemics. Ag Demics is one of the initiatives of Agile Alliance and what we tend to do is get youngsters you know, young people, students to speak at conferences but, most importantly, to start to share the word of Agile in classrooms and with their peers, classrooms and with their peers um.
Kemmy:I'm I'm not fluent in introducing myself so I have to pieces everything. So whatever your view, listeners want to know about me.
Temi:They should just send me a message. Yes, don't worry, at the end of the podcast we'll. I'll in the in the notes. You have all your links there, so they can.
Kemmy:Yes, yeah, I've worked with various organizations. One question that I do get a lot is how did you get into Scrum as a role without any technical background, because I have a management background. That's a really good question and I just brought in my transferable skills basically, and I've worked in several sectors like the manufacturing, the hospitality, the telecoms marketing team, so I haven't had a problem where my technical or people will say I have technical knowledge because I can use the computer. So that's technical. Yes, yes software background.
Kemmy:Um, and it's. I was just able to speak the language after some time, or to understand the language after some time. So knowing the right questions to ask to ask. And another thing which I did, very which I did and back upon, was to go on and do uh, coaching, certifications, training, certification. So being able to ask those questions and comfortable about not knowing what software I developed, my leads I think there's something, that two things that you said, that actually brought something to my mind.
Temi:You indicated the fact that, okay, yeah, you're not technical, but you know it's one thing to say, because to agree or to accept or to understand that wasn't what isn't technical means you've done a measurement, so you've said but this is what, this is what people are saying, this is what people need and this is where I am. That's my own self-awareness.
Temi:And I think also you said something about bringing your transferable skills, because being technical alone is not enough to be a great scrum master and idol coach oh, no, no but what you're saying now is that you bought the skill that you know, the one that you have your management skills and your people skills and you brought that into the role. So what I'm hearing that you're not saying is that, even though you're not technically savvy, but you appreciate tech, but you focus your strengths on the people part and you're not afraid to ask the questions, to go what does?
Temi:it mean yeah. So that means most important, you're very curious about what you do and who you do with and all that, the team, which is a very good I think it's a very good, very, very good skill for it.
Temi:Because even if you're technical, I've seen people argue on both sides of the equation where some people say technical scrum is actually dangerous because the person could then focus on. You know, I had someone at an interview asked me once that oh, we're wearing someone that was a data scrum master and I was like why? And her statement to me was so that the person can ask the developers why that is taking too long. That's micromanaging yeah exactly, so you know.
Kemmy:so in that case, if it's taking too long, it's taking too long.
Temi:You know. But there's something you said. You said you moved from being a traditional project manager to being a scrum master. How was that transition?
Kemmy:um, it was hard, you know, from telling, quote, unquote telling people what to do because as a project manager, you're responsible for for the task being completed. So you find people waiting on you for some information and if you didn't give them that information they couldn't move ahead. So you literally have to tell or walk them through. Or if you have a good team, they would take the initiative and just do it. And because a lot of the times you're doing front loading requirements, things change right. So when things change you find people waiting for you. Um, and so that mindset was still with me when I um, I became a scroll. I didn't know why people didn't have information or why sometimes people will be taking in the initiative. It was just the case Because for project management, you all make the decision, you all have to be there. It is one meeting to the other talking about the same thing.
Kemmy:no, no, disrespect to project management uh I mean project management still works for a lot of things, right. So it was switching the, the mindset um of completing a task within two weeks or within less than a week or a month, versus we still have some time, we have a year or we have six months, right, and we're gonna have to wait for the stakeholder or stakeholders you know they're the. The mindset was different. So it is switching that mindset. That was harder for me. I remember when I went for my training, these certified scrum master training, even though I had read, name it all what I could find around scrum, I was still questioning how do you think this will work? I don't think it's going to work. Yes, until I myself um in that environment and yes, it does work yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very true.
Temi:I remember I I read a book or is it an interview that lisa atkins did and she mentioned her first foray and she actually pointed out the same thing you said, which is in fact what she said. She told her team that I'm recovering. She kind of like you, like a recovering alcoholic. In other words, I'm recovering recovering project manager yeah, that was she said whatever yes yeah.
Temi:So she told them that if you find me operating the command and control, pull me back and go. Lisa, you started again and she said several times they will remind her. You're like okay, okay, okay, I'll step back, I'll step back.
Kemmy:Yeah, the mindset that change trusting people to do the job right. Yeah, you're trusting the people to do the work without your daily involvement, right? Uh, it's just different okay.
Temi:So now into the topic of agile transformation. Yes, let's go dive into that. Okay, so you have extensive experience in agile transformation and all that. What would you say along the way? What are the key challenges you've experienced when it comes to agile?
Kemmy:transformation in organizations. There are quite a few um like quite a few, and it is hard to kind of like pinpoint which one was the hardest, because when you look at the organization where they are, what their goals are, um, it is kind of how do you then measure it against the other places that I've worked? It's where I'm saying it can be hard to sort of like say this was the hardest, yeah, but I can say personally, certain ones were for me because of a lot of pressure there were on it, for instance me, because of a lot of pressure there were on it, for instance I. I work with um, an organization, and I'm not gonna try and even name where they are or what?
Kemmy:yes yes, um, or what sector it was. However, one thing that was mentally challenging for me was the availability of the people I was supposed to be supporting. There was no buy-in.
Kemmy:The leadership and I've I've heard this couple of times the leadership heard someone talk about aja, or they've been to a, an event, a conference, and they heard about it, or some training- come back to the uh, to their people, and say we're gonna be agile and I'm guessing that's what happened with this particular organization's uh organization I'm talking about, because they've got books for us to read and say this is the model that we want to follow, without thinking if it was going to be right for their own business or not, or what is even their strategic goals.
Kemmy:Anyway, the availability, or lack of it was a big pain in the backside. I couldn't get them to commit. I couldn't even. I requested one hour every week. I didn't get them to commit. I couldn't even I requested one hour every week. I didn't get it. I didn't get that. However, yes, the leaders were saying to me um, we don't have results yet. I say yes, we don't have results yet and that's because I I can't get this people attention and it's not because they don't want to be, but they're ever on the roads yeah because that's the nature of their job.
Kemmy:So that was not factoring, the expectations were just factor in. The expectations were just not reasonable. So when I realized that they were asking for a unicorn, I left because there was no way I could have done anything with those people the teams I was supposed to be changing to agile yeah, I think you know I've had a similar experience.
Temi:I want to realize I love leaders. Like you said, they go for a conference. They see the pretty powerpoint slides, you see it organizing. I went, three x's went agile and they go, that's it. So they come and then they hire us and they say, yeah, go make them agile.
Kemmy:Yep.
Temi:They're not part of it. They're just outside the equation. They're meant to be in the equation sponsoring the move, but they go go make them agile. And then the people that you're trying to work with they have their own targets regarding work.
Temi:Absolutely, and they can't stop, and the person that's telling you make them agile is also asking them about their work. So they're like you are a consultant, you've come independent. They're like I like you, what you're saying makes sense, but they're being asked about their work. They're like I don't have time for you. And then they go on.
Kemmy:Yeah and and that's where I often said that an agile coach is it's hard for an agile coach to be a coach in the. In most settings you have to be a consultant or a contractor, because if you're coaching people or coaching a team or organizations, one, there has to be time given, goals plotted in, milestones and measurements in place. So, and you have to be realistic they need to understand their capability, strength, weaknesses, right. But if you are a contractor, then you know you're a contractor because you know that you're going to get in there, deep, dive into it and do everything like a contractor or consultant does. Um, another of a challenge which I've seen is organizations focusing too much on frameworks we're gonna do say, oh, I shouldn't mention names, okay, we're gonna do this scaling framework, and they have not even perfected if whatever they're doing for one team.
Temi:And they want to scale.
Kemmy:You have to learn how to cook for yourself before you can cook for a group. So if you don't know how to cook for one person, it's going to be hard to cook for a group of people. And we know, if you're in Nigeria, that you might know how to cook for a group of people. And we know, if you're in nigerian, that you might know how to cook for a large group and not know how to cook for one person, and vice versa true, true because you there are different skills, that that is involved and you have to learn those skills.
Kemmy:So, similarly, when you're doing agile transformation, it is not about what you've seen done somewhere else. It is about what your team needs to learn, where they are and what the gaps are. I went somewhere in part of Canada I was consulting at that time and, similarly, the leaders went for a training and they were like oh wow, we're gonna be doing this. However, I went into the company and then they had three products of owners. Three product owners. That's conflicting and I didn't went. Yeah, it is. Have you thought about having them as a subject matter expert? So you only have one product owner?
Kemmy:and then the other people can be, maybe stakeholders or subject matter expert, whatever you want to call them. Yeah and it. They went for that, which was great. Their meetings were chaotic as well, because it was just one conference that someone went to and you you mentioned about them and us that. Can you make them agile? Yeah, that's sometimes difficult too. They don't think that them, as leaders, needs to be involved. Yes, you need to make changes from top sorry, from bottom up, but at the same time, the top needs to be agile, involved in the changes that you're making, right? Um, I work with a company whereby the only time the leaders show up is when something is wrong. So all the operational teams let me just call them operational teams all the delivery teams, are on one floor and the leaders are all of them on another floor. Because that's the way, um, the hierarchy thing well, that's the hierarchy.
Kemmy:You was, yeah, but then I, I don't know. I think that's the way it's just designed, that the delivery teams will be on one floor, and I don't know if they could have done it differently and mix it, but maybe that's the way. Uh, because sometimes you have to think about the lease and everything like that.
Kemmy:The okay, okay, the building yeah, yeah yeah, I'm guessing that's probably what happened, but by default it went into the delivery team at the bottom and then the all the leaders at the top, but they never go to the floor of the delivery team. They didn't, they didn't, so it would have been different if, yeah, they are separated by floors, but the leaders naturally will flow into. Yeah, but it didn't happen until we pointed it out to them and say have you realized that you're actually hierarchical?
Temi:you know, in every aspect yeah, yeah, yeah, I was very interested. You know, those days I worked that those days were on the floor. This is me with the teams and all that we're doing our work. I just looked and I was like who is that guy in that corner wearing the nice shirt and the and the chinos and all that, looking neat for doing his work? I'm like, oh yeah, that's a ceo. I'm like, oh really, it was just on the corner on the developers, so we had a massive floor for developers and the scrum teams and all that. He was just just. It just took a corner of a table. He didn't take take a whole table. So there are people across him doing their work and just sat there but it looks different too.
Kemmy:Yeah, so the leaders, they need to be more involved in the agile transformation. But where I have slightly see it worked, but then. But where I have Slightly seen it work, but then there were still some, you know, spanners in the wheels, but they did try Was an organisation when I worked and they tried to follow Some of the things that Were suggested, for instance, you know, in the scrum guide. Try to follow some of the things that were suggested.
Kemmy:Uh, for instance, um, you know, uh, in the scrum guide, or even some of the thought leaders okay for instance, we had a team select themselves, right, oh yeah, so they form a team, or they form teams. And then you did, I think the product owner and the scrum master is decided and, um, they would go over the product goals, uh, what the deliverables are, and then ask people to form a team. So they pull in one. Uh, if I know that a team topic works very well with me, whatever, I will pull that person but the downside of it is that they're not brought in their friends right.
Kemmy:So we didn't put in um some criteria for team formation. But it worked really well. But the other downside about that was that they were having to change too frequently. So it's getting the balance. We eventually delivered the product and services within a short space of time because people were working with people that they like and on products and services which they are invested in. So talk about building products around motivating people Building individuals.
Temi:yeah, yeah, yeah.
Temi:That's very true, you know. You remind me if I was writing that. I need to find that video. I watched an interview with Patricia Kong. I was talking about the Nexus framework. The person she interviewed talked about how they deployed Nexus in the organization and they mentioned what you just said, which is self-selection. But I think what they did was they had to create criteria. So they said you know, I think something like two SMEs can be in one team, but they said it took them like three trials and everything was set up. So that's very interesting. What I'm hearing from you now is that part of the issues or part of the challenges of agile transformation is the more executive involvement, then also availability. So obviously that also ties to executive sponsorship, right? It's one thing to say, don't do this.
Kemmy:It's one thing to say it does do.
Temi:This is another thing to say. We are doing this together yes banking the time, because some of these things will take time. Then I'm also hearing structure also has to be there, because it's one thing to say, you know, we're going to transform. I think the other part that that I've also observed that doesn't normally happen, is the transformation, is that isn't as the end goal, but actually transformation so that we can do something.
Kemmy:Absolutely yes, and even recently, some organizations don't even want to hear the word agile because it's a tricky word for them. So you would often hear new ways of working, different ways of working yeah, change management of course, I call this change management. True, you always looking for ways to improve it's a continuous improvement.
Temi:That's change yeah, yeah, okay. So one question now. Obviously you've had some success stories, your agile transformation journey. Can you share one? Obviously not going to specifics of names and all that, but can you share how you were called, what you did when you started, how the organization responded and what the end result was?
Kemmy:I'm thinking because, honestly, when you look at the organization as a whole, it is not something to transform because it's big. But when you compartment them and put them in smaller chunks, you can then measure the transformation okay, okay um, I I haven't worked in spaces whereby it is gold runs from the organization and I'm still trying to look for someone that asks okay I have worked with big organizations um provincial governments in canada. Uh, I've worked with federal establishments or agencies. So think about that. I don't see how you would transform.
Temi:Okay, so maybe let me rephrase the question, so maybe in sectors, how it has been in the sectors you've been involved in.
Kemmy:But if you look, if you break them down, and if it was a small organization, perhaps, yes, you could say, well, I went in and transformed the organization. But some you could say, well, I went in and transformed the organization, but some people might say, well, the organization is a small chunk Organization can be yeah, so it depends Depends on how you define it. But I don't want people thinking it's a whole of the organization. For instance, the provincial government I work with, I could not possibly have transformed the provincial government.
Temi:Okay, okay, so in the way you've been involved, yeah.
Kemmy:Yes. However, when you talk about perhaps a unit or some unit or multiple units working together, know those kinds of things? Yes, um, and then when you now go to the microcosm of what is it that, even under the atlias, we have right. Yes, you can measure that okay, okay so to your question, I just needed to clarify, clarify that.
Temi:Thanks for that. Thanks for that um.
Kemmy:So which? Where have I seen success? I think places where they're not prescriptive, and they're quite a few of them. Uh, they're not prescriptive. I work with the bank and it was just you, you do this, you do this, you do this, which is okay because they're bank and they're regulatory, but then there is a limit to uh the the prescriptions that you give before you start uh seeing some, you know, backlash or resistance, yeah, where I've seen it work, um, I think about three or four um actually being able to measure, yeah, and that's another thing you need to measure. Put measurements in place. When I first started of uh as an agile coach, I often miss out measuring my progress uh because remember that your work as an agile coach is not always at the surface.
Kemmy:People don't see what you do.
Temi:Yeah yeah, it's through people, so yeah yeah, they don't see what you do.
Kemmy:And I don't even take credit for what I do, because my job is to guide, to make suggestions, to create that environment. If people don't want that to happen, I can only suggest yeah, you can't force people, right? Um? So places that I have had success story in my own opinion again, this is not me, these are the teams I've worked where I have basically asked them to do what they want to do. I said go ahead, you do it and then we will learn from it. And they've come back. For instance, there was some teams I work with and the goal I was given to when I was a contractor was can you help turn the scrum, daily scrum around? And I thought daily scrum. And the way I look at things is that you have to ask yourself the five why's so? Why is your daily scrum not working? Why is it that you want a daily scrum to work, kind of a thing. But anyway, I was a contractor and I was being paid to do what I'm told to do.
Kemmy:I went to um and the daily scrum wasn't so great, which was quite all right, but there were other factors which made it not all right. Other factors which made it not all right and I think three or four weeks into the it they were the people that brought me in were already asking camille, what are you doing about the, about the daily scrum? Because it's still not working. So I had to take it upon myself, rather than coaching them, to do some visible things, and that's when I started to put things into perspective. So here is what I'm doing, here is what I've said, here is what the outcome were. But the turnaround for me was when the developers are not developers, um, develop development lead or technical lead, I can't remember what they were called okay uh said to me that came in.
Kemmy:All these meetings are waste of time. I'm like, oh my gosh, I've lost my job I've lost my job. Yeah, yeah, yeah all these meetings are waste of time, okay, I checked for understanding? Do? You know what this meetings are? A waste of time. Okay, I checked for understanding. Do you know what these meetings are supposed to be? Why is the thumbs up coming up? Do you know what these meetings are meant for?
Temi:Yeah.
Kemmy:And they were able to explain. So these are how many teams? Six teams, right, and each of the development lead or technical lead were able to explain to me what all the meetings are for. So they know they have an understanding. Um, and then I said, so what do you want to do differently? And they explained to me what they want to do differently. All right, so what happens if it doesn't go as planned? They told me. So it seems to me that they had already thought everything through, and I said okay, I just have to do this.
Kemmy:So when do you want to start not doing any meetings? They went tomorrow. I was saying my job is gone, I know, but I I have to listen to these people versus listening to the leaders yeah so, um, they said, well, we'll start tomorrow.
Kemmy:I said, okay, no worries, but coming, we will come and give you a report and the product owner so that was a technical lead saying that they will. I said, okay, no worries, no worries. Uh, let's do this. I was just joining it as I I used it, everything that was happening yeah and then the second day um the technical leads came and I was asking some questions because obviously I needed to feedback and the product owner was also asking questions.
Kemmy:They went oh no, we, we have to go back to the, the developers and everybody else. I said, okay, that's fine, that's fine. So there were no meetings at all scrum meetings I was I'm referring to and there was no working together with them. So the product owner, the scrum masters, nothing like that. And then the third day they came back and it was at this, the same scenario. They, they, they couldn't answer the questions. Let me talk about the third day. They all came back. This is not working. What's not working?
Kemmy:yeah and that was a turning point. It was just. It was a relief in an eye-opener to that. Why don't you leave people to uncover the purpose or the benefit of what the leaders are trying to get them to do? Because if I was just pushing on what I've been told to do, which I initially was, and they were not agreeing to it, I would have lost my job because they are not happy. They will keep complaining about me telling them pushing or whatever they felt I was doing, but they discovered themselves. Why scrum?
Kemmy:and those meetings yeah yes, and they even suggested how to make it more productive for them, because it's all about them yeah, yeah so that is one and just look at the smaller thing and six teams. Yeah, it cascaded to the rest of the teams, right, because they are now um, go look at those things. They're doing their scrum meetings very well.
Temi:You know, what you just said right now reminded me of something that we tell people that as a scrum master, we exist. All of our work exists in the transitory states. There's what you meet and there's what we're trying to do.
Temi:And we spend all our time here trying to get them because, like one of the podcast interviews I had with one professional scrum trainer, samadhi sugar, he mentioned something that, as a scrum master, when he gets an organization, a scrum, as agile coach, that the first thing you, your first stance, is to understand that you know they've gotten to a certain extent intelligent people. They don't know everything, so you start from where they are. Like we say in Canberra, start from what you do now, yeah, and then you coach them in the right direction. Like I read someone yesterday. The guy said stumbling upwards.
Kemmy:Yeah, makes an exponential change.
Temi:Yeah, exactly, you know it might be that little change. I think one thing I really loved and I struck my nerve when you said it was you know it might be that little change. But I think I think one thing I I really loved and I struck my nerve when you said it was you know, it's one thing to come in and say you have to do this. It's another thing for them to understand.
Temi:Yep, and when you're, one thing you should hear is that once they understand, they take ownership and design it for themselves yes so, like you said it's, I say, oh, this has to make you work, which is the essence of your role, to get them, like you said, it's like saying, oh, this has to make it work, which is the essence of your role, to get them, like you said, create the environment where they then take ownership of the types of design and make it theirs, and that way they then get the benefit of the event it then becomes something they're looking forward to.
Kemmy:Absolutely. I didn't even say well, I thought you wasn't going to work, I didn't even. I just said right, Okay. So what do you want to do? Differently and they told me all the things that they want to do differently and because they were committing to it. Yeah, the leaders had no choice.
Temi:And you'd be surprised to ripple through. Wow, that's powerful.
Kemmy:I had some scrum masters come in to observe and say, how did you guys do it? So that's how you transform the organization and not compelling people to do stuff, yeah, yeah.
Temi:In fact I was telling this on just before this call that you can make people do what you want them to do and people are generally obedient. They will, but the second time they won't. They may just do the first out of shock, but the next opportunity they're going to be like no way.
Kemmy:You know what I say. If you're telling me what to do, I will listen to you. I might pretend I'm listening, but guess what I stopped listening at? Some point. And I will still go ahead to do what I want to do.
Temi:And that's how it is. So yeah, I see, and one thing you said is really powerful, because when you look at it, we use the big terms, the transformation and all that and all that, but really it's it's the little things that go along going, because eventually they cascade, they multiply. You said something. You said the multiplier. You know there's. There's this math equation I saw sometime ago online and it's 1.01 raised to the power of one, I think, or something like that, and then that raised the same number, raised to just a little higher, but it's like 200 times increase in the value of the increase in it?
Temi:Yeah, so it's just that little thing. So what I'm hearing now from you is that, as an adult coach, if I'm involved in anything, what I should be looking at is those little changes, because they multiply. It might not necessarily be, I think no. Let me recap. You said first things, first measurability. You have to measure, you have to take a snapshot of where you started from and then be able to track what you're doing and what the impact is, since the impact of your coaching is actually through people.
Temi:So, first things, measurability. And then the first thing is measurability, and then the second thing is focusing. No, rather not forcing them, but creating the environment where they can pick up what they need to pick up to improve. So that also means at the first instant, when it's something that is wrong, you don't act shocked and go oh no, you can't do that.
Kemmy:No, you yeah, but but when you think about it, damien, just as you're saying it because, we've been told as a scrum, as a coach, go, fix this yeah as human, you naturally want to fix it.
Kemmy:But when you, after going through all my coaching, certifications and training and practicing and kemi has a lot of them I have realized that people don't need to be fixed. Yeah, when you see everybody has a problem, you want to solve that problem. So when we're going into, uh, even if you've been told can you fix the daily scrum, you know that you're not there to fix it. You need to ask the people. Tell me what's going on, what is my role here? I mean, someone has told me my role was a pin in the backside and they said oh right, I know.
Kemmy:So you can just imagine, so it's not like people don't want to change, but there are different ways and, yeah, first is listen to them, but guess what? You don't always have the time, um, because some people would I pressure. Where are the results? When we're paying you, we have to justify it and we're looking at a budget cut and they roll over scrum as the agile coach is the first to go.
Temi:You want to be seen doing something yes, so that's where the measurability comes in, because you have to demonstrate the adding value. Yes, I've actually suffered the consequence.
Kemmy:Yes, so that's where the measurability comes in because you have to demonstrate the adding value.
Temi:Yes, I've actually suffered the consequence of what you're talking about. There was a rule I had that when I started. Their team was in bad shape, really bad shape. So the person that brought me in was like I need you to help me make these guys better. And I was like, yeah, that what I? What I plan to do is pick up one of the teams, create a community of practice where, in my observation of the teams, I then go oh, these guys don't know how to do a, b, c, d, e, f, g and I'll create like a learning plan. So I'll pick up a team and as we are progressing, I'll be exposing the other team, the other scrum masters, to what we are doing, also teaching them the commentary of practice.
Temi:But the environment was so toxic that for some reason, they assumed commentary of practice was going to be a place where I would then clobber their heads, because that's now me and them alone. You know, like you're bad, you're bad, you're bad. So when they came for the commentary of practice the first time and I said so, what do you guys want to learn the first time, and I said so, what do you guys want to learn? It was crickets and I was like it's actually for you. I want you guys, I'm going to teach you guys some stuff, but I need to know what you want to learn. So I put a mural board in there. You know, buy and sell. I want to learn this, I'm willing to teach that.
Temi:And we started and I think I made the mistake, you, which is what you said I didn't have some measures at the start, so the guy that had me kept on asking, like you said, what's going on? What's going on? And I'm like, oh, I'm doing this, I'm doing, but like nothing is changing. Yet I kept on telling him that it doesn't work that way. No, it's switched because. Because I've had to think that what you are seeing is not the problem, is the symptom.
Temi:The problem is deeper yeah you know, like you said, if the daily scrum is ineffective, it's not because they don't want to talk. There's something making them not share either the structure, either the values are wrong, either the environment is toxic. So you have to fix all those things first, and sometimes it takes a while to find the the roots yeah so after a while I just said no, do you know what?
Temi:I can't do this anymore. I'm out, I'm trying to do the work, but you're always interjecting with where is it, where is that? And I was like no, no, no, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. I'm not going to switch on transformation.
Kemmy:That is so typical. Yeah, it's not a switch. You can't flick it, uh, whenever you like yeah, yeah, okay.
Temi:So I'm thinking now, with your years of experience and agile transformations being a scrum master coach, now you have a lot of these skills and certifications that are actually golden in the era that we exist in today. So if you're going to speak to a new scrum master or new agile coach or someone has been there for a while, maybe not as experienced what would you say? You've gathered that. Or I asked this question once. If you could go back in time and you met yourself as the upcoming Scrum and Agile coach, what would you tell yourself?
Kemmy:Gain the experience first.
Temi:Okay, so gain the experience first before.
Kemmy:Yep. However, the real world we live in, they ask for certifications. The certifications is just the tip of the iceberg. Uh, you might as well be reading podcasts and things like that and gain valuable advice, suggestions, ideas, because when you look at the role of a scrum master or that of an agile coach, you learn from others. So if you are talking about Certification and just because Some organizations have certification but your mind and soul is not in the class, it's a waste of time, right? Some people get the certification or certifications Just because it is a certification. It might as well be a certificate of attendance, but there is a quality uh to it. Uh, there was a period whereby that that was a period that was often on linkedin, where you would see some congratulations, you, I got my, or whatever, and you look at it and think, okay, what was that? Even the certificate is? The certification is not worth whatever it was printed on, so you want to move away from those kinds of things. So that's what I meant by getting certifications just for the sake of it.
Kemmy:Yeah, you are better off getting experience and people will say, well, nobody wants to give me that experience, create it. Experience, create it. If you want to be a scrum master, find a volunteering role. Transvariable skills are there in a lot of roles like events manager, events planner, those kinds of things, or project coordinator, um even marketing assistant, those kind of places, or um outreach whatever. There are transferable skills hmm, because you can actually use scrum.
Kemmy:You could use agile in those spaces too, if you are an event planner or events coordinator, whatever it can be. For example, you're working on this mini project because there is an event coming up yeah right, um, okay, who has the vision? That's a product owner. Who's going to be coordinating the logistics? So that's you. You're the coordinator. Yeah, so you're the scrum master. Who are the people working on this project?
Kemmy:they are the vendors so they are your developers, yeah that is your scrum team so you can find opportunities in anywhere. Some people will say the red car syndrome, right, you would find opportunities. You don't see the red counter. You start to think about red car in every car.
Kemmy:You suddenly see, is that exactly so look for opportunities, whatever role is it. How can you find your product owner? And there's always a product owner, even at home, right at home, who makes the decisions so well. Most of the time is a woman that makes the decisions around the house. The men tend to think they do but when it?
Kemmy:comes to shopping, the woman makes the decision. When it comes to food, the woman makes the decision right. And those are the kinds of things I'm talking about, not, you know, not that they make all the decisions no, no, I get, I get, I get, yeah, the day-to-day decision yeah which is what you want, right? So who's the product owner in our house? And it could be maybe another person, not necessarily the woman, but that's the what I'm used to, so I give you an example, so um. So who are the developers?
Kemmy:maybe you have kids so they could be the ones that are suggesting. Can we have cookies today? Can you come and taste this food I used to have when my kids were younger? We would have a task board and it was around cleaning.
Kemmy:It was around cleaning because I found myself always shouting yes, so let's do the task board. Uh, we do a planning session. What are we going to be doing this week? We'll put it on a list. What is it, when is it going to be done? By put it on it on the uh thing as well. Great, what does it mean to be done?
Kemmy:we define what it means to be done and I will have a peace and quiet because the next time I take will be the date we said we're gonna check yeah, the review I could be assured that they've done it right. So all this experience comes in various shapes everywhere. You just have to find it. So gain that experience and then go do the certification. But for certain people, training let me use the word training they want to go and they want a training first because it boosts their confidence okay, that's fine too, right, um, but experience is the best, and at least you're all your transferable skills.
Kemmy:You'll be surprised that you can become a scrum master. I mean, take, for instance, someone doing customer service. They have the skills. They listen to people every single day. They have empathy.
Temi:Yep. And nobody calls customer service to be happy. Everybody calls like it's not working.
Kemmy:They know how to still be diplomatic even if you raise your voice voice because they know that you're raising your voice not towards them. So you don't need to have a technical background Well, I don't. One last thing that I would suggest to new Scrum Masters coaches is that expand your horizon. The knowledge of Scrum, agile Frameworks, approaches, name it is maybe 5% to 10% of what you need is maybe 5 to 10% of what you need. However, your communication skills, your leadership skills, influence all those skills mix up most of the time of the skills that you need, because 80% of your time is spent facilitating things, and I don't mean meetings. You facilitate conversation. You facilitate workshops. You facilitate removal of impediment. You facilitate leadership. You facilitate removal of impediment. You facilitate leadership, you facilitate.
Kemmy:So you know enough of everything that you could say I don't know and I know what to call, or I don't know, but I I have an understanding of what you're talking about and I could do this.
Temi:And that's it there, listeners, bringing us to the end of another exciting episode of the Agile Metrics Podcast. And before we part ways, let's take a moment to extend a heartfelt thank you to our incredible guest, kemi Raji, for gracing us with her wisdom and insights on parallel expertise in agile transformation. Kemi, you've left us with inspiration. We are ready to tackle any agile challenge that comes our way with the right mentality. And to all our listeners out there, don't forget to hit that subscribe button and join us on this epic journey of exploration, discovery and transformation. We are committed to bringing you thought-provoking guests, actionable insights and game-changing strategies that will take your Agile journey to new heights. So thank you very much. Stay tuned, stay hungry and keep chasing that Agile dream. See you in the Agile Matrix no-transcript.