Gabrielle “GB” Blackwell (on Leadership Lessons)

In this episode, Gabrielle (GB) and Ronen discuss leadership 101, management tips, and stories from GB's 5x leadership roles at mega-popular B2B tech startups (Gong, Airtable, CultureAmp, Lattice) in the world!

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 2:02 When GB worked for Barak Obama
• 6:00 Leading Through Huge Changes at Gong
• 8:40 Radical Candor (Kim Scott) & Brené Brown
• 14:01 Caring + Holding Employees Accountable
• 18:55 Don't Ask Why, Ask This Instead
• 20:34 The 4 Types of Motivation
• 24:02 Experience As a Minority & A Key Leadership Lesson
• 30:25 To Be An Excellent Leader, Do This Work
• 33:20 Growth Mindset (Carol Dweck)
• 39:31 Vulnerability and Openness

Transcript

Ronen (00:00.897)
All right, we are here live and I'm so excited to have a really special guest on today, one that I've been following and a big fan of for a long time, Gabriel Blackwell, better known as GB.

GB (00:14.998)
Yes, thank you for having me here.

Ronen (00:18.765)
Well, welcome. And for those of you who are living under a rock and not aware of the awesomeness of GB and what she's posted and talks about and all of her content, she is a multiple time leader at some of the biggest software companies in the world. She's worked at Gong where she led a team of commercial SMB SDR. She's been at Airtable and now Culture Amp. And you've got to check out her newsletter. I think it's called The One-on-One.

GB (00:45.598)
Yes, you got it.

Ronen (00:47.45)
That's it. And we'll be sure to share a link to that in the various places where you may or may not be listening to this. So without any further ado, GB, welcome. So thrilled that you're on.

GB (00:58.702)
I'm so excited to be here. I thought it was our first time talking like not in a clubhouse.

Ronen (01:05.328)
Can we talk about that for a second? I feel like I know you so well already. How is that possible?

GB (01:09.526)
I don't know. I feel like we've just like, we've all just passed, like been the same Slack channels. Like I've been a big time follower of yours as well over the years. And yeah, we've been in Clubhouse. I'm like, is this our first time talking one-on-one? Like an actual conversation.

Ronen (01:24.864)
Well, that's so much fun because everyone gets to witness this conversation. But I think to kind of like get to know you a little bit better, there's a fun story I wanted to ask you about. Something that I'm very curious about. How did you get to know the Obamas?

GB (01:32.631)
Yeah.

GB (01:41.262)
I was going to say, I'm like, what is he going to ask me? The short story of it is I was working at a summer camp when I was in college. I went to University of Chicago on the South side of the city and they had a super summer sports camp. I played sports. So like if you're an athlete, you could work there. And as I was in this summer camp, one of the things that I noticed was I was the only athlete who had...

Ronen (01:44.293)
Yeah.

GB (02:10.326)
two weeks off, everybody only had one week off. So I'm like, okay, well, I wanna make more money and maybe I can do like babysitting or nannying or whatever. Like we're in a very affluent community. Like these people got money and they can spend it on me. So I like went around one day at camp with all the kids and I just asked people, like asked the children.

Hey, are your parents looking for a babysitter by chance? And one person, one girl came back the next day and was like, hey, my mom wanted me to give you this and hands me a note, then asked me to be a babysitter. And I did. And later on, I realized that family, the father, Eric Whitaker, is one of Obama's best friends. They always go on holiday vacation together in Hawaii at the end of the year. And so...

part of me babysitting for them also meant an invitation to go and work, like babysit during that vacation. So yeah, so I ended up vacationing not only with the family I was babysitting for, but also with the Obamas too.

Ronen (03:02.259)
during that vacation. Wow.

Ronen (03:12.257)
Okay, you gotta share an insider take on what it was like to vacation with the former president of the United States of America and his family.

GB (03:24.47)
Uh, so, uh, I think the one thing I'll share is so we would play taboo at the end of the day or after dinner. Um, and, uh, so, you know, we get split onto teams and I would always get matched up against Obama. So we'd like share like a love seat couch, right? And if he got something wrong, I had to go, not today, Mr. President, right? And so, um, yeah, yeah. That was.

Ronen (03:52.073)
That's incredible! You would literally hit the buzzer and be like, Nope! Sorry, Mr. President, nope!

GB (03:54.678)
I was like, sorry Mr. President, you got that wrong. So that was a, that is a, that's a highlight for me. But no, I mean, they were super, super kind, super nice as well. Like everybody there was, the Secret Service agents, like cracked jokes with me, the staff. I can't remember what the chef's name is, but I feel like his name is, his first name is Sam, kind of a celebrity chef. But he like, he was like, hey.

Ronen (04:19.31)
Hmm.

GB (04:22.154)
Like we're gonna serve either lobster or like a filet mignon for dinner, but I'm gonna give you both. So they just treated me so kindly. Everybody there was so, so kind, so considerate.

Ronen (04:35.793)
I think that's a great segue into bigger leadership topics and principles that some of our listeners can take home with them. At least when I think about great leadership, forget the politics for a second. You have to appreciate and admire what Obama was known for in a lot of ways. But that piece you just said, the kindness, I think that's a major underlying factor for effectiveness in leadership.

GB (04:43.575)
Yeah.

Ronen (05:05.549)
you know, if you're running a team and your team doesn't feel like they can trust you, they have that kindness that maybe comes from you, or if they feel like they do have it, that could be one of the big underlying factors of like, whether or not you'll get that extra mile, that extra push. Tell us a little bit about, you know, maybe as you are up and coming and starting to get into your first, maybe second leadership role, you know, what were some of those lessons that you realized?

as you are getting your leadership career started.

GB (05:37.642)
Yes, I'm just like writing down some notes. I am prone to go on tangents. I'm like, let me get myself centered discretionary. So I think there's a couple of things that stand out to me. Like in answering your question, I'm gonna do my best that I can. But I think there was a big moment when I was working at Gong actually. And so the segment that I was in,

Ronen (05:42.688)
Yeah

GB (06:02.074)
We had made a lot of changes very quickly. Like when I tell you it was an overnight change, it truly wasn't overnight change that completely disrupted how SDRs did their job and nothing else changes, right? Like performance management expectations don't change. And so we come to find out that like two, three months later, like half of our segment is on a coaching or improvement or performance improvement plan or it's being exited out the door. That was very, very tough.

to be a leader in where you basically have a revolving door of people just exiting out on not good terms.

Ronen (06:35.469)
Wow. And this happened at Gong, which from the outside in, things were always probably, it looked like they were always perfect. Things were always like amazing, but no company is immune to change.

GB (06:47.506)
No, not at all. And also just know there's a difference between like, uh, market, like, you know, the brand of a company and what it's like internally, right? Like that there's always going to be most of the time there's going to be some separation that's there. Now, um, one of the so like, when's it happening is during that time, I think it became very, very clear all the ways that I could be better as a manager. And so that felt to me like the gauntlet of management.

Ronen (06:55.345)
course.

GB (07:15.842)
And one of the things that I started to do was I started to go and look for mentors, like internally as well as externally. Like I had joined Kevin Dorsey's Patreon group. I had joined Scott Lease's Patreon group. I'm like, let me just learn as much as I possibly can about leadership. I'm like reading all the books. But internally, what I had also done is I looked at leaders who I felt like could help me out a lot. And there was one woman in particular, Wendy Harris, who previously, the former.

GM of their EMEA office. And I had seen that in her previous experience, she had turned around the lowest performing team at Dropbox, I believe, and so one of the top performing teams. So I was like, Wendy, girl, you got to help me out because I am struggling and I want to do better. So first thing she recommended that I do was read Radical Candor. And then she's like, and then she's like, once you read it, I want us to have another conversation and talk about how you put this into practice.

And then she also had talked about the importance of, and this is a Brene Brownism, but clear is kind and kind is clear. So, you know, one of the best things that you can do is offer up people true transparency. So like as a leader, one of the things that I will do is I will tell people the things that are not being said. Right? So let's say if it's an SDR, they might be coming in, they don't know enough to know enough just yet in terms of what it means to be at a corporate environment. And the fact that it is,

Ronen (08:18.783)
Mm-hmm.

GB (08:39.534)
This company is, we are not your parents. We will not take care of you if you fall down and skid your knee. You're lucky if you have a manager who will help get you up let alone give you a bandaid, right? So you really have to control your career and take ownership of it. So like for me, I started to learn the importance of really telling people about this is the environment that you're in, right? We have changes that are coming. It doesn't matter how much you don't believe in it.

disagree with it, the sooner that you can come to accept it and learn how to operate in this new environment, not only will you set yourself up to be successful here, but anytime this happens anywhere else in your career, and it will, you will be better able to adjust and adapt and also, it'll make you a much better candidate for bigger opportunities that you want to go after too.

Ronen (09:21.946)
Hmm.

Ronen (09:28.369)
Totally, totally. And I want to call that out for a second. By the way, for those of you who are in leadership and have not yet read Kim Scott's work, Radical Candor, it, in my opinion, is probably the number one most impactful single idea in any leadership book that a leader can take from concept into practice quickly and see an impact. The whole idea of it is so powerful. It's this idea of, she calls it her four quadrants of the four different types of leaders, the most idealized type.

And this is a communication style too, by the way. So it's how to communicate. The most ideal leader is the one who embodies radical candor, which means caring deeply, authentically, but also not holding back on what you need to say clearly and articulately. And interestingly enough, Kim Scott will also say that the aggressive leader who is clear, but a jerk or an a-hole is actually the second best type of communicator.

which is shocking. She says that that's actually very effective, even though it's not a long-term culture ad, it detracts from the culture. That's the second most effective. And the third most effective, or second least effective style is what she calls ruinous empathy. You know, it's the person who is essentially, oh, I'm just gonna be kind and not really say it like it is because I don't wanna hurt your feelings. It's the empathy and.

GB (10:29.152)
Yes.

GB (10:45.143)
Mm-hmm.

Ronen (10:52.205)
That's the background I come from. So I had to learn how to go from ruinous empathy to radical candor. And I sense that with you, GB, as well. Like you probably came from that place of like, I don't want to hurt your feelings. Like, go rah rah, team, go you. So how did you overcome that and start to implement radical candor?

GB (11:05.302)
Yeah. You know, you asked me the question before we started recording, like, what was my big moment? I just remembered what it was. And it was, it was during that period, there was a rep on my team who absolutely ripped me apart, like ripped me apart. And, and it, and it was like, I just remembered this rep saying, um, like we, we had a one-on-one schedule for 45 minutes. They start the one-on-one one off saying they were leaving the organization.

Ronen (11:13.525)
Oh, nice.

Ronen (11:21.017)
Oh no.

GB (11:34.326)
It's like, okay. And then for the next 44 minutes ripped me apart. And I just sat there and by the end, but the things that I heard were, hey, as a rep, I was struggling. I was making mistakes that I didn't need to make. And you didn't say anything while I was making these mistakes. Right?

Ronen (11:46.459)
Mm.

Ronen (11:53.345)
Wow. You heard this rep say to you, you didn't tell me what I needed to hear. And I'm leaving. You could have done something about that.

GB (12:02.966)
Yes. So some people will be like, Oh man, they didn't take, they didn't take control of the situation, whatever. Like they're sure there's some semblance of truth to that. And also the magic that this rep gave me was, Hey, I want somebody who will tell me I'm messing up. Right? Like, so, so I, um, I remember when I was reading radical candor, like what you're talking about, it's almost like, what moment I said people

What I don't remember saying, I don't remember the words effective, right? But it doesn't mean they're not there. But what I do remember is reading the line. I'm paraphrasing. It was people would rather work for an asshole who helps them get better at their job than somebody who is nice to them, but doesn't help them get better at their job.

Ronen (12:51.405)
And let's state a really important thing, it doesn't have to be one or the other. There's a third option.

GB (12:55.466)
It doesn't have to be a- Yes. Yeah, yeah, so I just remember reading that and I was like, oh shit, the way that I'm approaching this is actually not what people want, right, or need. And yeah, so once I had that, so I was like, I know I don't wanna be an asshole, but I also know the way that I'm approaching this is not working.

And so I then went on a journey of really trying to figure out like, how do I manage that, like, what's that balance for me specifically? And I think the quadrant goes, you care, you care personally, challenge directly. Right? So like, how do I do this? And so this is where like my mentor, Kevin Dorsey came in big time. So I remember I finally get him to commit to being a mentor. Took a while.

Ronen (13:30.891)
directly.

GB (13:43.894)
And I remember one of the questions that I asked him was, like, how do I balance that? Like, how do I balance caring for somebody while holding them accountable? And he's like, it's not either or, it's both, right? You care about, like, by virtue of you holding them accountable, that is an expression of caring about them.

Ronen (14:02.765)
Well, and I found that if you go a layer deeper, people want to know the why. They want to understand reasons behind things that by explaining why you're holding someone accountable, why you're saying, hey, look, Johnny, you're the bottom SDR right now. And I know you're capable of doing more. And I know you know you're capable of doing better. But we got to talk about this right now. And we got to talk about what happens if it doesn't change, which is basically we're going to fire you.

GB (14:06.926)
Mm.

GB (14:18.722)
Mm.

GB (14:23.404)
Mm-hmm.

GB (14:27.242)
Yes. Yeah, that's the clearest kind, right? Listen, I believe in you. And also, if you don't do the work, here's what's going to happen. We have some time to redirect where the momentum is going right now. Do you want, is that, you tell me, what do you want to do? Here, I'll follow your lead. I also think there is, in going through this balancing care plus standards exercise, one of the things that Katie had shared with me was

So I think one of the biggest challenges that I had of going from the ruinous empathetic leader to now I'm going to be the radical candor leader is I still, there was something that irked me. I was like, it gave me the ick to go. So I had to figure out a way to help myself make that adjustment. And the way that I did this was actually gaining consent.

to be that radically candid manager with my reps, but also create a playbook for myself of what it would look like to do that successfully on a rep by rep basis. So what I would do with my reps is like, all right, we're gonna, of course we're getting to know each other, but I'm also, I'll ask them the question, what kind of performer do you wanna be? Or do you see yourself being? Do you wanna be somebody who's like, just hits 100%? Do you wanna be somebody who's like 110, 120?

Do you wanna be like the superstar, right? Like absolutely crushing these numbers. I was like the only answer that's unacceptable on my team is anything less than a hundred percent, okay? So like, who do you wanna be? And then we would talk through, okay, like why is that important? Like what's compelling you to do that? What does this mean for you? What it will be like when you actually get there? But then it also goes, now how do you want me to interact with you, right? In supporting you on this goal? So for example,

Ronen (16:16.584)
Hmm.

GB (16:19.49)
Let's say that you are pacing behind your goal. How do you want me to show up? Exactly, right? And then what does that look like? When you are pacing on the nose, how do you want me to show up? When you are pacing ahead, how do you want me to show up? When you've hit your goal, how do you want me to show up, right?

Ronen (16:38.265)
This is huge. This is huge. You're asking them to give you parts of their owner's manual. Like we're not born as humans with any owner's manual. You go to buy a car, you get a manual, you go to buy anything. You have instructions on how the whole thing works, but humans don't have it. So if you ask people, what's your preference? How do you like to be praised? How do you like to be held accountable? That is clear. And that also helps you as a leader specifically and individually show that when you care...

GB (16:44.747)
Yes.

GB (16:59.239)
Yeah. Yes.

Yes.

Ronen (17:08.457)
Also, you can be clearer with them on their terms.

GB (17:10.27)
Yeah. Yes. For me, if I, I'm not going to all of a sudden stop being like, I don't like the term, like it's not necessarily a people pleaser, like, oh, I need to please, I'm over that. But like, I was like, all right, I always want to be considerate of people. And so by having this, I call it consent. It's like gaining consent because otherwise, like, there's always the risk that managers have to violate people. Right? So like,

I'm pushing a little bit too hard and what ends up happening is this person starts deflating, they're discouraged, they shut down, they disengage because I did something that hit a button, right? Or completely dismissed them. So what I'm really trying to understand is, hey, we're going to be working together for a while. How do I make sure that when you, like when it's your time to be promoted or to move on to the next opportunity it is, like...

you are going to be in a position to have a much better career versus you're leaving my team traumatized and needing to heal. And it takes you two, three years before you can get back to where you were. Right. So I like for me, if ever, so yeah. So for, I felt like that. And so, and then when we, so when I think about like, when we talk, people talk about like, what's their why, what's their why, why do they want to make a hundred calls today? It's more about

Ronen (18:11.809)
If ever. Yeah.

GB (18:29.488)
I don't care about the why. I care, the question that I care the most about is, who do you wanna be, right?

Ronen (18:35.405)
Ooh, I like that, that's so good. Who do you want to be?

GB (18:39.35)
Not necessarily about your why, right? Cause some people will say, well, my why is I wanna, I wanna get a mortgage and I wanna, it's all these pictures of success for them, right? It's more about who do you wish to be? Like I had a therapist who really taught me, who embedded this into me of like, who do you wish to be? Like you, we're gonna fast forward and you are going for the opportunity of your fricking dreams, right? You know this is the right thing for you. You know you're the best person for the job. And the...

Ronen (18:52.145)
Hmm.

GB (19:08.886)
the person who's interviewing you ask you a question, which is, tell me about a time you were at work and you were faced with some unideal situation that you're facing right this very moment in time. What did you do? How you answer this question is what will influence whether you get that opportunity or not. And look at you now, the universe has blessed you with the opportunity to figure out how you will answer that question.

Are you gonna be the person who goes, wah, I hate this, and you shut down and you get let go, right? Or are you gonna be the person who goes, I got this, and you get it, and you figure it out, and you get even better, and you've got this beautiful story to go with you, and nobody can take that away from you ever. Who do you wanna be? It's your choice.

Ronen (19:57.265)
So good. And the research that's out there on motivation, and there's lots of it, there's one of the deeper forms of motivation, which is about your internal identity. And there's lots of different forms of motivation, but the ones that we often only see or hear about is external motivation, which is like money, right? Or getting an award or getting praise from a boss.

GB (20:09.021)
Mm-hmm.

Ronen (20:27.245)
It's not the only one. Intrinsic is like joy of the activity itself is the motivator, very, very hard to actually touch on. Usually you start to feel that when you actually master a skill and the mastery of the skill leads you to hitting flow. I mean, athletes talk about this form all the time. Like you lose track of time. But what you're talking about right now is very powerful. It's called identified. This is how does myself, my values, how do they align with how I'm acting?

GB (20:35.159)
Yes.

GB (20:41.474)
Mm. Yeah.

GB (20:57.495)
Mm.

Ronen (20:57.573)
So when you ask the question, the reason why that's so powerful, who do you want to be is because you're challenging them to go inside and identify what value is not aligned right now to who you wanna be. And how can we resolve that? How can we line them back up again?

GB (21:01.097)
Mm.

GB (21:05.802)
Mm.

GB (21:11.043)
Yeah.

GB (21:15.95)
And yes to everything you said. And there is, like, this is what I see and especially working with folks who, like everybody's coming in with a whole ass life with everything that happens in life. Like a lot of people come in masked all the way up. They've got all kinds of like survival instincts that no longer serve like their biggest potential and their power.

Ronen (21:33.1)
Oh yeah.

GB (21:45.354)
and then being high performing, high functioning, well adjusted human beings. There's a lot of things that happen in people's lives that can easily hold them back. And so there are times where I see people playing small and I'm like, all right, you're telling me that you wanna be this way. And to your point, the way that you're showing up though does not align. Help me understand what is holding you back from accepting your bigness.

Right? Like if you are somebody like nobody is having no managers really are having those kinds of conversations with their people and like this is what it means to both challenge directly and care personally. Like I care about you as a person Ronan and I just see that you are you could do the job you can hit 100 percent. However the way I see you got the skills to be like a 200 300

GB (22:44.078)
Tell me about times where you played small and why.

Ronen (22:49.245)
That's huge. I don't know if you're familiar with Gay Hendrix's book, The Big Leap, but he talks about this upper limit, which is basically we all get stuck by an upper limit that we hold ourselves to. And the reason why we get stuck by this upper limit is we start to believe these other things are baggage that holds us down. And so exactly what you're saying, hey, what's holding you back from being a 300% quota achiever from getting promoted in six more months because you are doing all the things.

GB (23:14.603)
Bye.

Ronen (23:18.477)
that we need to see for that promotion. Whatever the thing is, we believe all these stories that tell us we can't be successful all the time. Something has to go wrong.

GB (23:22.542)
Hmm.

GB (23:30.766)
Deep size, yeah. And I think also, like for me, my identity is I am a black woman and there have been all types of experiences that I've had where someone's like, you are shooting, you're aiming too high, lower your standards, right? Like whether people say that out loud or indirectly, like you start to pick that up. So I think especially for leaders, there's like Gen Z is the most like,

ethnically diverse generation ever, and they're quickly going to be the largest demographic in our workspaces, right? So if you have folks who have never managed and never led anybody, but someone who they can identify from all the demographics, right? Like it's going to be so, so important to bring in that, like to have those kinds of conversations to get real with people, right?

Ronen (24:09.934)
Oh yeah.

Ronen (24:28.209)
Oh yeah.

GB (24:30.286)
who might've grown up in a home where their parents were afflicted by substance abuse, let's say, right? Like they're gonna have, like there's gonna be things that are there, but we're gonna have to go there, personally. To me, it doesn't mean I'm their therapist, right? It just means that I have to hold space and recognize how it shows up at work and adjust appropriately. But I've also had people who come in and it's just like, it's clear to me that you were just consistently overlooked. So it's easier for you.

to not try super hard because to try hard and to still be dismissed is heartbreaking. You're not in that environment with me, you're not, we're not there, right? So I'm gonna need you to trust me that when you try hard and you achieve greatly, you will be recognized and praised greatly. So that like this, right? So I think they're still like talking about like as managers, there is always the risk that we.

Ronen (25:20.313)
That's awesome.

GB (25:28.178)
inadvertently or sometimes, I mean, sometimes people do this purposely, but there's always the risk that we run of like truly violating someone, traumatizing them, but we also have the opportunity to create and cultivate environments that help people heal, especially people with experienced workplace related trauma.

Ronen (25:45.797)
Let's go there because I'm a big proponent of being aligned and authentic to my strengths and values and one of them is I think I took a wrong turn because I believe the wrong people. When at an undergrad I was studying psychology and I was set on going into a PsyD program and being a therapist. I've talked out of it by a very important family member in my life.

GB (26:00.822)
Good.

GB (26:07.394)
Mm-hmm.

GB (26:11.286)
No, are you the same person? That literally happened to me too.

Ronen (26:14.578)
By the way, we might be out!

Ronen (26:19.029)
That is crazy. And you know what the basis was by this well-meaning relative of mine? He was like, you're not going to be able to support your family. Period. And I bought it. And I've had to work through this idea of what money means to me and this emotional, unhealthy attachment to like, is there ever enough? And by the way, this family member did very well for himself financially, but still it's never enough. No matter how many millions he makes.

GB (26:46.701)
Mm. True. Yep.

Ronen (26:47.173)
He's never gonna feel secure. And I didn't grow up like my, so this is my dad's one of his brothers, but I didn't grow up the way that they grew up in complete poverty. So they grew up with a different kind of mindset that they had. I was fortunate enough to have enough and not want, but I believe deeply, like very deeply that there is no separation of.

who we feel like we are, who we are, and the work that we do, it all comes together at the same place. And so great leaders do behave as therapists from time to time. Not clinically, and not in the sense of like, their goal is to actually help you heal. But in a slight variation of that, and maybe this is under like the industrial organizational psych world, but the idea is like, when you can help people emotionally unblock, their performance will unlock.

GB (27:18.776)
Yes.

GB (27:24.971)
Hmm.

GB (27:36.462)
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Ronen (27:40.857)
That's my new tagline by the way, I'm hanging around with it. Emotionally unblock and performance will unlock.

GB (27:50.574)
emotionally.

Ronen (27:53.753)
Thank you, GV. I'd love that I have your endorsement on that tagline. Throw that around.

GB (27:58.771)
That is powerful. You better put a team. You better, you better copyright trademark. That's tasty right there. I love that. I mean,

Ronen (28:07.397)
But it goes back to what you were just saying, right? Like people show up, maybe they grew up with like parents who had substance abuse. Maybe they grew up as like the seventh child in a poor family and like they had to fend for themselves. Maybe they had other kinds of abuse or traumas. Everyone does, everyone has something.

GB (28:18.379)
Yes.

Yes.

Like, if there's like so much that I've learned from, like there's the therapeutic work that like I, you know, I was doing or that I was consuming. There's like the spiritual work that I've done to help myself, like as did we're all just works in progress. So like if we truly just understand that the, it's like a Buddhist thing, right? Like the most basic or common human condition is suffering. Like we all experience.

suffering in its own unique and beautiful forms. But we also, while in communion with others, have the opportunity to, I would say, heal, right? But also know how to carry forward despite the suffering.

So, and managers, like the fact that, what we spend, the majority of time that we spend with people is at work. So it's like, I think there is such, there's such a, I think an urgency right now especially, but so much importance in people who are considering and who are in leadership positions to also consider like, right, like literally, it's not just, we're not managing projects.

Ronen (29:19.313)
That's right.

GB (29:39.958)
We're leading people, all right? Like people who come in with full stories, full human conditions. And I think one of the most important things that a leader or manager can do, people mean leader or people manager can do, is probably go to therapy. But I mean, just like literally like do your own work. Cause like as you're figuring out how, like if you're doing the work of understanding and becoming more aware of the things that are afflictions for you.

Ronen (29:41.966)
Mm.

GB (30:06.006)
the things that knock you down, and you find ways to overcome that and to learn from it and to take the magic from it, right, and move forward, like, this will help you be a much more effective manager and leader because you're going to have people who are life will be life and for them, right? Like I was talking to someone recently, a VP, and they were like, people are, it's always going to happen. Like you're going to have reps who are, who are going through a divorce, right? Who are losing a loved one who are

Ronen (30:12.9)
Mmm.

GB (30:34.122)
needing to take FMLA for whatever reason it is. You're always going to have that. So the better able that you are to understand how do you move through loss, how do you move through suffering, the better able you'll be able to support your people, coach them. There's a boundary that I, cause I'm like, all right, there's some things I don't know how to do. So if I don't know how to help you right now, I'm like, hey, I don't know how to help you, but we have these resources through modern health that could be really helpful for you.

Right? So it's also like the right.

Ronen (31:04.407)
Great. At least try to get them the right resources, right? Even if you can't help it. By the way, I think there's a moment of humility that occurs for every leader where you're like, oh God, I don't know what to do here. I'm way out of my pay grade. Like I didn't get that degree, the therapy degree. I actually can't help you through this, but let me go help you find some people who can or let me at least point you in the right direction.

GB (31:22.914)
Let me help you feel that. Yes, yes, yes. And there's something really powerful in saying, as a leader, I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know how to, I personally don't know how to support you directly in this way, but the best way I do know how to support you is getting you in contact with somebody who can't. I did an improv session yesterday and I learned the importance of yes and. Yes and.

Ronen (31:30.904)
Oh yeah.

Ronen (31:49.637)
I love the yes and that's a great improvism. Take that back to your team. Anyone who's got a team, just the yes and like keep it going. Keep moving. Keep moving. Not but not no, it's the yes and. Yeah, that's a big one. Well, Gibi, I know we don't have a ton more time to talk, even though I think we may have to do a second and a third to this episode, especially because I sense that we vibe on a lot of the same levels.

GB (31:52.374)
Yes.

GB (32:00.138)
Yes, and.

GB (32:11.561)
Okay.

GB (32:16.235)
A lot. I'm like, how has it been? Because I'm over here thinking, I'm like, okay, he knows cold calls and stuff like that. I'm like, dude, like the leadership, the psychology, literally just the human studies. I get it. Yeah.

Ronen (32:30.826)
Yeah, and I've been through like so many of the like famous self-help books that we all know of. And you know, it's funny because you actually just talked about one of the big things that I had to learn the hard way, which is, you know, Carol Dweck in Growth Mindset teaches us when you have an ego, you can't learn.

GB (32:36.44)
guys.

GB (32:46.542)
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Ronen (32:50.501)
So sometimes just saying, I don't know, is the way to continue your growth mindset and to be able to grow and learn even in leadership positions, even with soft skills, not the hard skills. It's like, just be okay to acknowledge, like, I don't have to have all the answers. And sometimes new leaders, I felt this way the first time I was in leadership, feel like they need to have all the answers. Like I literally have to answer every question and that's not being authentic to yourself. If you don't have a firm answer, don't make something up.

GB (33:10.36)
us.

Ronen (33:18.861)
See that, you know what? I can't get back to you on that. I actually don't know. Or.

GB (33:22.334)
You know, I had a moment. Like, so again, you asked me about these big moments. I'm like, mm, I don't know. And then you say something, I'm like, yo, I remember, I remember where I was at when I had this relationship. I was actually, I was interviewing for an SGR manager role and I was creating my presentation and I was kind, I was just, I was really anxious. I'm like, I don't know if this is enough. Like, I feel like I should have more. And so they essentially asked me like, hey, how would you run the team? And we want to have all the details.

Ronen (33:32.022)
Yes!

GB (33:50.998)
And I had this moment where I realized like, I don't work at this company. Like there's no way I would know. And like, if they expected me to know all of this, they're assholes and I don't want to work with them. And so I remember, I can remember giving myself the permission to go. It is. It's like actually the perfect thing to say, I don't know. And also I was like, and I want them to engage with me. I want them to ask me questions.

So like, I don't want to say everything that I know. I want to give them just enough for us to have a conversation. And I got the job offer. I didn't work for them, but it was a big turning point. Because this is pre-Gong days, all right? So you do have a nice brand on your profile. It does help you.

Ronen (34:28.801)
Not surprised, but awesome.

Ronen (34:36.336)
Yeah.

Ronen (34:46.893)
Oh, totally. And we could save that for another episode because that's actually a really big topic. How do you do personal branding and leadership without going too far, but then also building your... Totally. But that's awesome. And you know what? I think people respect humility. They respect people who say, I don't know, but I'll figure it out or I'll learn.

GB (34:47.919)
Here we go.

Yeah, it is.

Thank you.

You still gotta do your job. Yeah.

GB (35:08.927)
Yeah.

We could talk forever. I'm convinced, because I was about to go on a full-on tangent, but I...

Ronen (35:13.254)
Hahaha

Ronen (35:17.278)
I can sense that you wanted to go there!

GB (35:21.723)
I'll be very transparent with you, like very honest. So I've started working with a new coach, someone who was previously a Zen monk, like at a monastery. Yes, it's awesome. Rob, love him. If you want to know more information, let me know. And there's a method of meditation that he is teaching me, calls it dynamic presencing. And one of those things means like you hold the parts of yourself that need attention.

And you just hold space. You might even have a dialogue. And for me, what came up for me in my meditation yesterday was it was like I... There was this part of me that really never feels enough. Even reading all the information, and you probably feel like this too, there's some things that have happened in life that don't make any fricking sense whatsoever. And I was like, if I could just rationalize this and make it really logical, then I'll feel better. And it's like, nope!

No, no, this is just how it is. And so there was this idea of just like, all right, it's so important to just be like, you know what, like you don't need to know every single thing, you don't have to be perfect. And why that's important is you are deserving of fully embodying the idea of enoughness.

like right?

Ronen (36:37.301)
And when you are able to do that, your team can do that. If you imagine three circles in the middle is you, then it's your team, then it's the rest of the company. As a leader, you have to start with you. And the strength of the you in the middle of that circle will emanate further out to the other parts of the circle. So if you can give yourself that space, show up in our imperfect ways. Humans, we're so flawed, but when we can acknowledge that, show up with humility instead of ego.

GB (36:58.505)
Mmm.

GB (37:02.286)
Hmm.

Yes.

Ronen (37:05.845)
imperfection instead of hiding from our imperfections and just being like, Hey, I'm a mixed bag just like everyone else. I show up with it every day, but guess what? I show up trying to give what I can give today as my best self. I'm going to keep growing. When we do that, people are inspired. They'll do the same.

GB (37:14.829)
Mmm.

GB (37:19.7)
Oh my god.

GB (37:23.418)
Gosh, the people who've got to work with you. Wow. So man, powerful. I'm feeling, woo, hit by the whole spirit.

Ronen (37:27.675)
Ha ha!

Ronen (37:36.475)
Oh man, Jimmy, this has been an absolute blast. I hate to have to cut our wonderful time short, but let's do this again because I think...

GB (37:43.69)
Let's please, can we? And you gotta come, listen, I'm gonna bring you on to a virtual event because I've learned a lot. I, another conversation, I wanna know, what are all the books that, give me your good reads list on this stuff because you shared some things where I'm like, the big leap, okay, we're gonna read that now.

Ronen (37:48.185)
Let's do it!

Ronen (38:03.285)
You know what? I'll totally. I have so many notes because I used to take notes when I would read. So I have so many notes that I have to just like edit and release because it's all leadership stuff. It's all the books. It's all the big ones. But the big ones like the quick hit list, Radical Candor. We talked about that. A really good one that people don't know. Thank you to Seth Godin and the Alt MBA where I got this from. The coaching habit. It's tactical guide on like how to actually show up as a coach. Great for leaders, especially new leaders. The coaching habit. Huge.

GB (38:12.171)
Yeah.

GB (38:23.318)
Yeah.

GB (38:33.12)
Yep.

Ronen (38:33.865)
Carol Dweck's growth mindset, maybe just chat GPT instead of actually reading it because it's a little technical and deep, but the concepts are pretty big. It's like the difference between Tom Brady, how he became one of the best quarterbacks of all time versus the highly touted first round draft pick who went nowhere. It comes down to that mindset and it's a really hard one, but there's a lot of nuggets in there. And then I think the vulnerability stuff that Brene Brown talks about is big.

GB (38:42.049)
Yep.

GB (38:56.214)
Mm.

Ronen (39:01.349)
But there is a big risk, a big asterisk for leaders, which is know how to use filtered speech. Not everything has to get shared and there is oversharing as leaders, but usually it's not oversharing your personal vulnerability, it's oversharing company vulnerability. The unprofit stuff that you need to actually keep away and protect your team from. But her stuff is really good on like, how to show up without shame and how to show up in a vulnerable space that attracts people.

GB (39:18.26)
Yeah.

Ronen (39:31.385)
to that openness and vulnerability. Last one that I think like made a big impact on me. Ooh, it's tough to say, but.

GB (39:33.663)
Yes.

Ronen (39:42.865)
I don't know, I'll come back to you on that one. What about you, what do you recommend?

GB (39:47.37)
Oh man, I wish I had more books. I mean, Radical Candor can't recommend it enough. Mine are not necessarily leadership books, where you go into business leadership section. I would highly, highly recommend The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. That is something that I continue to come back to. And I espouse to every single rep on my team.

People have worked with me for the last three years. I've heard this over and over again. I will do enablement sessions on it as well. I think nonviolent communication is also a really great one, thinking about the communication front. There are podcasts. So Brene Brown's Dare to Lead podcast is the one that I found to be really, really helpful. And so she'll have a guest on. It usually is a leader, like a business or a corporate leader of some sort or a leadership.

management consultant kind of person. Right? So they'll come in, there's an interview, you get to hear from these different folks, they'll ask them all different kinds of questions. But also these are folks who are usually doing some kind of research or have a book or something like that. And so there's a lot of like further material, right, that you will be introduced to. So then I just like check out MIT and like MIT Sloan articles and then Harvard Business Review articles. So I'm like a little bit more micro content these days. But yeah.

Ronen (40:46.924)
Oh cool.

Ronen (41:14.213)
Hey, you got to find whatever works for your life and for your schedule I know a lot of people are just like give me the 10 15 minute version of this but

GB (41:17.112)
Yes.

GB (41:21.694)
Yeah, yeah. But no, I love the Dare to Lead podcast. Like I've learned so much from the leaders that she's the politicians, right. But it really is more so about like leadership principles and tactics. And then you get again, you just you get to find what resonates for you and then do like a choose your own adventure if you want to do further study on it.

Ronen (41:42.441)
That's awesome. Well, GV, tell people how can they reach out to you, connect with you, what do you want them to know?

GB (41:47.366)
Yes, I want you to know that I have a newsletter called The One-on-One. I drop weekly tips on managing sales teams, specifically for frontline managers, every Thursday at 1130 a.m. Central Time. Go to my LinkedIn page. You can connect with me there. Follow me, whatever you want to do. And then I also have a link to subscribe to my newsletter too. So that's the best way to get me.

Ronen (42:09.797)
Thank you so much for being on the show. It was an absolute blast having you and we're gonna have to have you back.

GB (42:15.274)
I'm so excited, like seriously. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful of having this time with you.

Ronen (42:22.193)
Awesome. All right, well, stay tuned and take a look at the links in the show notes. If you're looking for GB's newsletter, I'll also include a link to her LinkedIn as well. And stay tuned for the next one.