Knott's Scary Farm | Behind the Screams w/ Daniel Miller & Gus Krueger

Pillow Fright Besties Kay and Ama speak with haunt masters Daniel Miller and Gus Krueger in this very special bonus episode! Listen along as they chat about their first horror movie experiences, becoming top scenic designers and maze engineers, and unveiling their creative process behind iconic mazes such as  Asylum, Wax Works, and new mazes Widows and Eight Fingers Nine: The Boogeyman! 

Knott's Scary Farm runs from September 19th to November 2nd in Buena Park, California. 

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Transcript

Welcome back Pillow Frighters. I'm Kay And I'm Ama and we're two out of your three besties bringing you all things horror.

Today, we have with us two of the masterminds behind Southern California's most original haunted attraction, Knott's Scary Farm. While other events drop obscene amounts of money on buying up big name iPs, these gentlemen work tirelessly to create wholly unique and original visions to terrify your scream season.

Let's welcome Daniel Miller and Gus Krueger. Thank you guys so much for joining us. We start every interview with a couple of questions we ask everyone. What is the first horror movie you remember ever seeing? And which is the first horror movie that ever scared you? Probably most definitely for me, it was Halloween.

And it was before my time to see it actually in the movies. For the first time. So I think Halloween 2 was the first film I saw actually in the movie theater. Scary. And I remember Friday the 13th as well as my brother's birthday. He was like 13 and I was like, you know, 11 or something. And Yeah, so Halloween definitely is the one that really got me into horror.

My mom was a huge horror fan. She loved it. It would take us all the time to, to see, you know, everything. So that period in the eighties, my brothers and I just loved horror, so big, huge fan. Wow. For me, probably. I can't remember exactly, but it was either Rocky Horror Picture Show, which is not technically horror, but it fits the genre, right?

For us theater kids, it's horror. I saw that on a bootleg VHS when I was about 10, so that was fun. And then that and Evil Dead was the first two that I can remember. Yeah, so, you know, just a perfectly normal start. But I don't I don't remember ever really getting scared, though. It was more like, this is cool, and just watching and taking it in.

I think the things that scared me were like, you're all gonna die in nuclear war! Well, that sounds hideous. So like, so like these boogeymen in the woods are like, yeah, that's not so bad. So I do have a little amendment to that. My dad never took me to horror films. He thought it would be too freaky.

So he decided, he knew that we loved horror films. He decided at one point to take us to Amityville Horror. And I was like, oh yeah, that's fine. And then all the way to it, everyone kept on telling me, oh, it's real. It's real. Oh! And that scarred me. So I couldn't, I basically was at a drive in, I just hid under a pillow, I couldn't see it.

I just remembered this pig floating in the window, Jodi, I think her name was. And it just freaked me out. That was the first one I was really terrified of. Ah. I feel like that movie still scares me as an adult sometimes I'll just put it on and when they're like, Get out! It's it actually gets under your skin.

So yeah, I see that. Perfect. So, another, you know, fun, silly question. Do you have a first horror crush? Jamie Lee Curtis.

Oh, man.

Not really. I mean can I come back to it? Yeah, sure.

He can go down his list. We just did an Elvira art show. And I just remember as a kid watching Elvira and just kind of being totally enamored with her. And now I work with her, so it's kind of cool. Yeah, my upbringing was kind of weird, 

So my, my brain was a little different, because my dad had I grew up in a, a long chain of, he had bookstores and he had adult stores, so it was like, I kind of just wandered around. Like porno all the time. . So it wasn't like, wow, I'm really attracted to all these women. I'm just like, that's just normal

And so I, you're like desensitized, , it kind of, yeah. So that, that's gonna sound great on this. I'll be like, wow, he's really selling the farm . But no, we had adult bookstores and things as my dad grew up in in the book and, and then, and moved in the comic business. So it was really, if anything, maybe that's why I was so desensitized to that just kind of weird or adult content.

It was just normal. It's just, that's just another thing. So I, you know, it was more like, yeah, that lady's attractive or whatever, but it wasn't a matter of oh, this is the one, my hyper fixation on this kind of thing. Just digging my own ditch. All right, well, let's talk all things Scary farm and let's take it from the very top.

How did you guys become scenic designer, maze engineers? You wanna start or ? Yours is so much more traditional, you start. Oh, sure. I went to UC Irvine and I became a theater major. And I actually started my horror journey. They had a maze, like the sci fi club of UC Irvine, had, they, they loved making haunted houses.

So every year they would make a haunted house for home, it was this tiny little thing, and I loved being a monster in it, and I kind of got into the creation of it, and I switched majors to theater and to set design. So from that point on, we went to New York University. I got an MFA for that. Actually in between, I took one year and I was a monster here.

I was in Uncle Ernie's Madhouse. Which is sort of a hillbilly thing at the time. Actually it was House of Maniacs. I was Uncle Ernie as a layover character from Madhouse. So I was a deranged hillbilly. But I really love set design, so I continued in New York University, but one of the first places I applied to 26 years ago was Knott's Berry Farm because I knew about Knott's Scary Farm, and when I heard that the job actually entailed original creations of mazes, I bit in, bit in hard.

I loved it. So I've been here for 26 years. I've probably created around 26 to 27 mazes that are original and worked on. Dozens more. But it's, it's a great job. Every day is a dream, or nightmare, come true, so. Yeah, mine is not nearly as traditional as his. I actually I didn't study scenic design, I studied TV video.

So I was like a, on the path to be an editor basically, working bum jobs here and there. And a buddy of mine kept bugging me to come work at Scary Farm. And I tried, one year I auditioned and it was like late in the run and they, whatever I had wasn't what they were looking for. They said Get outta here. So I was like, ah, whatever.

And then a few years later he's nah, come do it again. You know, they're not doing any of that stuff again, they need people. I'm like, okay. So I applied and I started working as a seasonal talent. Like him, my first gig here was as a monster. I was I was just some random skeleton in Elvira's Nightmares.

So that was the maze I started in. But from there, even though, you know, with the little bit of the I had done some theater classes as well, but it was really focusing on that. So, 

, I was studying TV and film and I had been working a little bit with some buddies on an improv show and I was just doing set design for them, not set design, but more build because it wasn't design. It was just we have trash and I can put it together. So, but from there, I, I, this, the second or third year I was working as a talent here.

I got under the carpentry team and wound up working a season there. And for the next year, I got recruited to work on the props crew, which is the props crew here at Knott's is different than a props crew on like a movie or it's more like the, the, the scenic package, the art direction type, the set decor, as opposed to just hand props.

I always like to clarify it because props can be, it's, it's the everything, right? It's the look. So I started doing that and then I had a couple seasons off, and when I came back the people running props at the time, they asked us, they asked me to come back, and you know, probably within a year and a half of me coming back, I was running the props crew.

You know, it just, I just worked hard, and I didn't shoot for it, just sort of fell into my lap, and I, I went with it, and then I ran the props crew here, working closely with this guy. And kind of like, like I said, it's more like we're are directing in his absence when he's not there, at least as far.

That's how I looked at it. So I, he, he trusted me a ton to help him bring his stuff to life. So. But I ran the props crew for about five or six years and I kind of was getting, I felt a little complacent and at the time one of our designers had left for another park and there was an opportunity there, there was a maze that didn't have anyone assigned at the time.

So I went to the head of entertainment at the time and I said, Hey. You know, if nobody's overseeing this maze and you need somebody to just do it because it's just sort of this prop heavy thing, I'd be happy to just do that because I'm, I'm kind of getting antsy doing what I'm doing. And she just looked at me and said, Oh, so you want to design, huh?

Here design this sign. And I was like, Huh? Oh, okay . And it was just like these weird jumbled wagon camp graphics that the guy going out and just sort of thrown in. And so I just placed them together and I'm like, how does that look to you? And she goes, Oh, yeah, that's great, fine, thanks.

And she's, and I was like, okay, she's yeah, we'll, we'll talk about what that is. I was like, okay. You know, just a few days later, basically, she's just, maybe even two days, she's Oh yeah, you're gonna do, in addition to that, I'm gonna have you do the log write and the mine write overlays because we're taking talent out and it's gonna just be more prop stuff.

And the other guys are busy. And I was like okay, and she's yeah, just come up with some stuff. Okay. And I was like, okay, so we'll do skeletons over here and ghosts over here and it'll be fun. And, you know, I came up with the stuff and did this to her. And then we had another venue at the time that was being moved from inside the park.

This was Endgames, that was moved backstage. And all I just thought was, And I don't know how they're going to fit that into a warehouse. And then I literally a week after I thought that, she's like, Oh, hey, I need you to move this into this warehouse. And I was still running the props department at the same time, so it was just kind of like so I don't know, I don't know how I did it, but I managed to survive that season and then got through that season and she just said, Oh, by the way, we're just gonna, I'm just gonna move you over to pro or design full time.

And it was weird and wild. And it really was just a matter of working hard. And doing it for the right reasons, and just taking advantage of opportunities, so. And at that time, that was more the typical way of how, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually weird that they actually hired a MFA designer. Yeah, and honestly, if I came with that story and tried to get my job today, I mean, if I didn't have my experience, they'd be like, Get out of here.

Yeah, which, but I guess I'm doing okay because I've been doing it for 10 years now, so. That's awesome. It's a real trial by fire. Yeah, it was. Oh, it just sounds so tiring right now. I couldn't imagine. Well, this year we've got two new mazes. Widows and Eight Fingers Nine Boogeyman. Yes. Lovely. Where did these nightmares come from? You want me to go first this time? Okay. Well Eight Fingers Nine Boogeyman, he's I just had been wanting to, this idea I probably had about five years ago and it just been kicking around it went through various iterations and never was really fully fleshed out.

It was just sort of like a page in one of my pitches, you know, hey, here's this one, but it This year it really, well last year, because you know, that's our cycle of these things, we start working on it at the end of last year, but It really started to come together in my mind, and what I wanted to do is I wanted to create something different and unique for Knott's based on Grim Fairy Tales along that.

But I wanted to create our own Boogeyman. I wanted to do a Boogeyman maze, because I haven't ever really done just a primary evil protagonist. Or antagonist, I guess it depends on your point of view maze, but I wanted to create our own character. I didn't want to borrow anything, and I wanted to make something that, you know just was strong and creepy and unique to us and, and could be a lasting legacy character.

And really the vibe came from a couple of his things where he had done before with just the, the Tooth Fairy maze he did and Peter Pumpkin Eater. They were these strong characters that drove the narrative. But like I said, I wanted to create something new. So I really dove into what that is And what I wanted to be, I wanted to take it to colonial times.

So, when you go into the maze, it's like you're walking into a storybook. And stylistically, it's not like anything else we have here. It's completely different. I kind of, I grew up around theme parks and just loved wax museums and things like that. So I kind of wanted that, like you're going through a dark ride type vibe of, Scenic where you have tons of murals, but you also have some relief stuff on the waltz to break it up But then a lot of 3d so it really felt like you're in this weird vibrant world of a storybook so That was the push of the maze and to just tell the story of this poor kid Who's abandoned in magic woods and left to die?

And he's brought back to life by a kindly spirit, but because of the circumstances of his death and how angry he was and his hunger, he taps into all the negative evil of the woods when he's brought back to life and he transforms into this monster that is immediately empowered with all of the power of nature in these woods and all of the knowledge of the woods.

And he's driven by hunger and revenge to go back to town and, Oh. That's dark. I love it. It was a lot of fun to put together. So, Widows started creating last year. I was just shooting the breeze with a couple of painters, Glow Haro she's the witch on Ghost Town Streets. The Bride. The Bride, sorry. The Bride on Ghost Town Streets, she's the one with the candle.

Her and I were talking about what scares us and previously that night I was walking my dog and it was the time of year when spiders were everywhere and they were just spinning their spiderwebs and I was walking through and I just got a face full of web and I, I hate that feeling. I read somewhere that that was like the number one fear for men is, is walking through spiderwebs.

So I don't know if that's true or not. I'm just saying that that is Written by a man who hates spiders. So she said one of her favorite mazes of old was The Asylum. I designed that several years and she's always creeped out by hospitals and she was like, I really also hate like hospices and convalescent homes just because it's like such a weird reminder of death.

Yeah. And I just kind of like a little light bulb. I pop in my head, it's wow, what if we smash those two together? Well, if we have like spiders and grandmas together and how would that work? So the name came first, which was Widows. So I was like, Ooh, black widows and widows. It's kind of fun, you know, to smash those together.

But we came up with this concept of demonic spiders burrowing underground and into a convalescent home, taking over. The patient's skin, so like they would go into the grandmother's skin and they would be spiders, but they would be sort of in the bodies of these grandmothers. And I thought that would be horribly creepy.

Now, I think I said before, I'm a huge horror film fan. I also right at the time was seeing a movie called X. Yeah. Which has this extremely creepy scene where Mia Goth, I believe her name is. She's she's like an elderly she's made up to be an elderly woman. Pearl. Okay. And she's seducing this man.

I think he's paralyzed. And it was just this creepy scene where this elderly woman's licking the, this. And I thought, well, what if part of a, a substory of it is these grandmothers were seducing the victim so they would have to give birth to a clutch of eggs before the night was out. So. Half of the maze is inside of a convalescent home that's pretty hyper realistic.

Sort of in, in, I like to put a lot of action into the scenery so everything tells the story. So the whole thing's kind of been torn apart by these large spiders that are everywhere trying to burrow into the skins of these grandmothers. And then the second half is in the spider caves. Now we love to do Easter eggs here.

And I also want to do another layer. There's a lot of layers already, but I want to do another layer. We used to have a maze here called Voodoo. So I figured, okay, I'm going to tell this story where one of the voodoo priestesses actually was put into this convalescent home. And. She, and it's the same venue, actually, so she was so upset by that, that she cursed the, the convalescent home, and she created a portal into this under chamber, and invited Arachne, the goddess of spiders, to, to come up and send her sisters into the convalescent home.

So she is the reason that all of these spiders are up there attacking the elderly. And you, the second half of the maze goes into the hierarchy of the spider. So there's all kinds of different, there's a venom pit where they all collect all their venom and they serve it up to the goddess. And there's priestesses and there's all, there's, there's kind of the orb weavers who are just sort of the workers.

It's pretty complex, but in fact tonight is going to be the, when the talent sees it for the first time. I have to explain all this, so this is kind of good practice for me. Happy to help. He has some dark stuff going on, isn't that great? So some of them, some of them just play backgammon, and the rest of them do magic spells.

Yes. That's the difference between them, right? I'm wondering like what's the path that happens in these retirement homes? Well, one of the things to consider when you're designing mazes is some, some of the ideas are so far fetched that it's like, how do you actually make a talent able to do that?

So, we couldn't hire just elderly patients. We wanted them to move fast, so it was like, okay, that's why the concept of them having a spider inside of them, you know, being able to move jerkily back and forth and move like the spider is kind of important to this, and they can choose because they can kind of go back to their elderly form and then startle out as a spider, so.

That's, that's terrible. Like in a good way, but yeah. Thanks, thanks for the new phobias. What goes into building a maze from original concept to execution? I can start. You can start, yeah. This is around a year, maybe even a year and a half process a lot of times. Right now is when we're starting to prepare for next year.

So we start with the one page pitch, which is basically we, pitch it in one page. We get all these together and then we're going to call a meeting and all the designers and some of the managers come in and we just pitch all the original ideas that we can. We already kind of know that we already know the places that we're going to replace.

So we kind of geared towards that place. We'd like to do that, especially within the side of the park. We'd like to match a theme to a theme area. That's why Origins is in, you know Ghost Town, and sort of Mesmer is in the Clown area, as well as Cinema Slashers in the, kind of the Clown Boardwalk y area.

Beyond that, then we we get approvals, and then we'll go to our storyboarding. And so we storyboard everything. And we get approvals on those. Ground plan. We kind of, I, I like to do both at the same time. Ground plan and storyboarding. We have basically a quick turnaround where that gets approved.

And then we move on to all of our elevations. Usually around, what, 60, 70 plates of original elevations. I think mine this year was 80. Go into the package and then usually by January of, January they, it gets finalized and then it goes off to production. We also have lists, so every discipline has a list.

Props, paint video. Not really carpentry, because carpentry is the package. And effects, lighting, costuming. Yeah. Am I missing anything? I don't think so. Everything you see. On that design phase of it, basically these, the way that we do it is, it's crazy because you, we, they say we're maze designers, but we literally design every aspect that you see.

So, we, you know, we, we will get help with some things once in a while. Obviously, we ask other people. People opinion in work, but ultimately we are the creators of these venues and we literally do it all like we write the scripts for the talent. We write story of the maze. We photoshop the storyboards. We.

We draft the entire maze in 3D, and then we create the technical drawings from that, and then we create the paint paperwork from that. So, so it's a pretty all encompassing job. The design end of it, they, we usually say it's about three months, but honestly, there's still pickup work that, Takes us through so we've been working on these since you know the start of the year.

You got a jumpstart before I yeah My duty was there. Yeah, I had to basically work through Christmas Yeah, and then once we get it once we get it all there it all goes through All the paperwork gets vetted through proper approvals They do all their budgeting process and then they just start building the thing, you know We do have the crafts that build it.

We have a great carpentry team that goes in and does it Obviously we have and this is all done in house. Like everything that we have here is done by people that work on our production teams here, but yeah. This is fairly unusual. I don't know of any other park that does that, right. They mostly go outsource all the construction and stuff, but that's one of our secret sauces is like, it keeps it super unique because you'll rarely see a store bought product in the maze.

So sometimes you will, obviously, because it's just, you know, What I'll say is we, you'll see something, but you'll never really see a store bought product that hasn't been altered or tweaked to fit, better fit our design. And basically it goes up to this point where, you know, we art direct all the disciplines that come in.

They usually have two to three weeks each, you know props, lighting effects. And they, they get to a point where we call it the red line where his red line yesterday, my red line a couple of weeks ago, but that doesn't really stop it, the process. It's more like a, an optimistic date where they hope everything's going, but then they use that as in okay, this is where we really need to refocus.

And this is a, If anything, they, they want to be, it's supposed to be, we did it guys, but it's more okay, this is really where we're at. And if something is like a glaring, oh my gosh, like that's, they know that that's a place to. But yeah, we're, you know, there's still little bits and tweaks, they're still working on the technical end of mine now, so.

And mine. Yeah, we're, we'll get, but gosh darn it, we'll get there. And they have to put up all the other mazes as well. Yeah. So, I mean, that's a huge process, and that shouldn't be overlooked, because it's an amazing team out there. Well, and you did share a little bit of the story of your inspiration for, for the two mazes that we have today, but, In the past, or what are some other inspirations that you've had, or some things that have really, you know, sparked that?

It's funny for me like I said before, I think I'm weird in that I don't have any crazy phobias so much. I just something will startle me or get me out of it, but I don't really have anything that I just see and I'm like, Oh, this is horrible. What scares me more than anything is people.

Because they're the most evil, horrible things on the planet. So so really to me, it's just, how do you take what is it that you can find and create a creepy, weird, eerie atmosphere and just we've had a very I think it's a understatement that we have very active imaginations. So but it's really like, how do you, you could, to me, you can take just about anything, anywhere.

And make a really messed up maze about it. Like you could have grocery store maze and we could turn it into the most hideous thing ever. So, It's really just finding, for me, it's like, what's the story? What's the hook? What do I want to tell? What is it that drives me to do this? Because when we commit it to paper and we put it out there, if somebody looks at it and goes, that's the one, we've got to believe in that thing.

Yeah. Because now we've got a year that we're married to it, and we've got to see it through. And once you have this job, you, you see almost everything through the lens of, hey, would that make a good maze? Yeah. Or hey, would that make a good haunt? Mm hmm. You know? So, you, you know, even the most, you know, benile thing would be really like, oh, that would be good.

And it's funny, the one, the downside of that, which I've learned in the past too, it's just I've had mazes that are more like people or the, the enemies, like people I think, but When people are, when the talent is people, and they're kind of tired, it's oh, it's a guy, right? So there's always like, where, how do you make it a monster, right?

Because no matter what, you got a tired monster, and they got an imposing profile. Like you walk around oh, you walk around, oh, hey guy, how's it going? That's not quite. For me, as weird as it seems, I get a lot of inspiration from nightmares. So I have I don't have a lot, but every once in a while I'll get up in the middle of the night and just write it all down.

Oh my gosh, what was that? I mean, completely irrational. But usually there's something in there. from, you know, I'm always in search of something as a horror junkie, I'm always in search for something that is completely messed up for me. I want to be scared, you know, part of the spiders thing is it's a phobia of mine.

So it's sort of cathartic to go and design this thing, walk through it every day. And, you know see these giant, massive spiders eating these, these patients and I'm like, now I'm kind of numb to it. Yeah, you get there. It's funny, people were asking me like, oh, what's your favorite room in the maze?

And I was thinking like, well, when I was designing it, this one that they built first was like my favorite, but now I've seen it. So because it was like the first one built, I'm like, Oh, that's last year. That seems so long ago. Yeah, you do you do kind of get, it is a way to sort of get over it, because we're stuck dealing with it so long, they kind of become friends with it.

Whatever it is you're afraid of, you're just like, yeah, the goal is really always what would be really creepy? You want somebody to turn a corner and go, Aah, you know, like that. Just, we want them to have that reaction, because, and it did, when you're walking through, our job is to create, these atmospheres where people get lost in right because ultimately, you know You're about to walk seven minutes through a place that a bunch of people wear a rubber mask on ooga booga, right?

That's the bottom line But we want to take you out of that so that you forget all that like so we try to create this world that as You walk into it you get the music you get the sights you get the lighting everything so that you're transported there and and that's really in the last ten years or so not just done such a We've done such a great job in taking that just transformative aspect of these environments to feel like.

It's not just walking through a hallway that has a thing happen. It's just you're in this place. So if we can create these environments with all these horrible things on it, and we lose you in this moment, that's when we can really get you. We can really just have that talent come. It's about the storytelling, too.

Yeah, it's just about, I mean, that's maybe what differentiates us. We, we tell, we try to tell a complete story, and we, we try to make every prop tell that story. Yeah. And any time you go through, then it will be kind of unique to that character, too. So we tell each of the characters that backstory. And that actually does translate.

I know, I'm, I'm a realist. I know 75, maybe 90 percent of the people who come through just want someone in the corner and screaming at them and, and jumping out. But there's a good 10, 15, 20 percent that want to see the atmosphere. I mean, I love when people walk out, go home and go, what did I walk? What was that thing that was, you know, what was that about?

And I think that's when we've done our job. Yeah. We're those people though, that we're like, can we take a little longer? Go faster. You're a little slow down the line. That's okay. Yeah, it's really, it's. To, to his point there, when, when I'm creating these things, and this is something I've told people before, it's really, how do you tell a story in 13 rooms?

So it's really 13 chapters of a story, like you want to see that progression so that when you go through, you're always like, here we are at the start of the thing, and then it's just what the hell, we're dead at the end of it, right? So it's, it's, how do you find out what your story is and then help progress it, everything pushes it further along until the finale.

So it's, it's just a, you have to approach it like that. Well, you know, I guess you don't have to, but I have to approach it like that. And I think that just shows because you feel, especially for our pass holders, the guys that go through and through and again and again, you start to see, oh, this thing early echoes this thing later.

You know, stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, you've almost made a little interactive horror play. Everything but none of them. I mean, that's, that's really the idea. It's just, you know, We treat them in a sense like we respect the story like you would respect a movie. It's, it is, you know, it's our big sort of dollhouse and we're placing these things and we're taking you on this journey through it.

How do you keep legacy mazes, is that what you call it, like from the previous year? Or, I don't know if there's a better term for it. I've heard the term legacy maze, like our We actually have a legit legacy maze this year. Or I guess what do you, from the mazes that you carry over from the previous year, how do you keep them fresh for people coming back?

And then, what goes into the decision when you're like, it's time to retire them? You're saying for retirement, it is time and If people like it or not. We do do surveys at the end, and if it's just not a popular theme, then we'll usually Okay, let's move on. So it is somewhat of a mystery even to us.

Sometimes they decide, and we kind of scratch our heads going, Oh, that's a little Yeah, generally, mostly it's just time. It's really, you know, we have the luxury of some of our backstage venues that we're able to build it and, you know, we, we built it in a way that the fire code allows us to just shut it up.

So the wear and tear on those aren't quite as bad. Some of the ones that are more of the in park things like we have Origina and things that require a rebuild every year there, there's an absolute toll. On the, you know, just, you can't keep taking something apart and put it back together and have it be pristine.

So there is, there's, you know, all of these things, like he said, there's time, there's that shelf life where you have to make that decision. It's the time to go. So we usually do two to three new mazes a year. Last year we did three because it was the 50th and we had a big push, but it's generally so. So there is that factor of, okay, what are the oldest mazes here?

They do make exceptions sometimes if something is extremely popular. Paranormal had a very long run. It's amazing. Yeah, and then, you know, Trick or Treat had a very long run. And going back to Vampire Mazes and the Asylum, we do have mazes that have that, just, guests can't get rid of. They can't get enough, and they still score so high that they stay around.

So, yeah. It is, it's, it's time, you know, it's metrics and surveys and things like that. And it's just sometimes an idea comes along that's just too good for that particular venue. And sometimes it means the thing that's there, maybe it loses a year of its life because some. And to answer the first part of the question I'm a little different than most.

I really want to pour my blood and guts into the first year, make it as complete a story as possible. I usually don't like to revisit and re, you up a maze, but every once in a while, it's necessary, maybe a room, like in Cornstalkers, they just couldn't, they couldn't buy all that corn. It was just like, it was in California for some reason, it wasn't feasible.

So I changed it into a rat room. You know, for the last year of the Pumpkin Eater. Things like that. We do sometimes like to market that in plus up mazes. You know, every once in a while. For me, I think, though, most of the time the guests don't even notice it. You know. But for, because push is the major theme of the maze.

Yeah, you know, usually, though, you may see some elements for the second year that were wish listed for the first year that didn't happen. But they were far enough along the pipeline that just resources or whatever. So sometimes for second year, and you even see a little bit of that, like we're able to get some of the things into Cinema Slasher this year.

Yeah, like Cinema Slasher now. Chilling Chambers has, there's you remember Room 13? All three of last year's new mazes do have a little bit extra this year. But usually, yeah, we're, we're, we're so crazy ambitious with what we're designing for the new mazes that it just sort of, They're very demanding children, so they need a lot to, to, to grow.

The Slasher thing was, there was, on the marquee, there's a big Slasher that they just put it up. So, it's actually really important. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, and in Chilling Chambers this year, because Chilling Chambers is sort of the repository of all the mazes of Knott's's history, I was able to get new tombstones for Dark Enemies and the Depths, which were retired last year.

Those are both great. Thank you. So, we, we put You know, in the nature of Chilling Chambers in itself, it's just, I think, as long as that maze is a staple of Scary Farm, when a maze goes away, I'll probably be looking at I can take that. I can take that. So that, that's what that maze is about, you know, Knott's's history living on.

So, I've got to think about what I'm going to add to that next year.

So, is there one particular maze that you, you know, really close, near and dear to your heart that you kind of want, should you bring back? Oh, gosh. I had so much fun doing, doing Trapped. The third year of Trapped was really the first couple years I didn't work on so much. The third year of Trapped I designed.

All of the rooms, I did the scenic design, I worked with Jeff Tucker to come up with some of the story. I designed all of the puzzles, and it's such a unique experience. And I know that there's logistics of Trapped as an experience that we can't really do it. Without thinking about the way that, above my pay grade decisions to be made there.

But I would love another crack at it. I would love another crack at an experience like Trapped, yeah. So, do you know what Trapped is? Okay, so, the VIP, that's why. For me, I have so many babies. That's my theory with horror films is if it was not great. I would love to see a sequel. I hate when people do sequels of movies that are just classics or great.

Yeah. And I just don't appreciate that they try to redo it. That said I wouldn't want to take a bad maze and redo it. You know, that'd be bad. Asylum was one of my favorites especially because the talent can just cut loose and just You know, it's the same kind of genre as clowns. And and we just kind of also got to the theming where it wasn't even appreciated or appropriate to do.

The Asylum. So It was definitely a favorite. It was all based off this movie called Plan 9. Not Plan 9 From Outer Space. No, Session 9. Yeah. That makes more sense. That was just a creepy old Asylum, where the patients were sort of still, kind of stuck in the walls. Disturbing little story that I loved.

If I had a choice, I'd have you redo Hatchet High. That was the same year. Hatchet High, Go to College. Yeah, I know. I like telling the story because it was Asylum and Hatchet High was the same year, and one was deadly serious and the other one was kind of tongue in cheek about an asteroid that hit high school.

And everyone knows high school, so it's great. So everyone kind of knows all the tropes that go into the high school genre. There's so many horror films based in high schools that it was, you know, Great. I wanted to, I knew that Asylum was going to be great. I almost immediately, after I designed it, kind of abandoned it, and just said, Hey, I want Hatchet High to be great.

So I went to the, you know, to the mat to get Hatchet High as good as it can be. And he was in it. I was in it for its third year, but I did do decor for it the first year. Yeah. So, were you like in a thug or something? Oh, it was a hall monitor. And then on Halloween, I did promptly. Oh, so that was, that was good.

Yeah, people were very flirty until they got close. Aww. And then I changed the tune. But yeah, I really wanted to touch on something he said there. We talked about just the themes earlier. Because, like he said, high school, everybody knows high school. But just going back to the design of it. When we're coming up with something, finding something that everybody already immediately understands and relates to, like high school or hospital or this, that, whatever.

Yeah. That's half the battle because if you have this crazy idea that you have to explain no seriously We're on this other planet and everybody walks upside down if you have to have half of it do this Find that theme that everybody where's your? Grounded and then bring that horror and just slam it on top of it because it's so much easier to say Oh, I can see this happening to me as opposed to what the heck There's so much emphasis on making Knott's a really immersive experience from mazes like Special Ops Infected where you're basically putting laser tag to Trick or Treat with the flashlights and now these interactive lanterns.

How do you come up with these ideas and more so what are the challenges of making Knott's? He'll cover most of this, but I will say, because he's really into the interactive stuff, I will say that there was a point when we had a leader, his name was Ken Parks, he almost was like, okay, one, I like the fact that you're giving us a creative concept for a maze but can we push the industry?

Can we actually make it like another thing where we are the the leaders of this industry and we are creating something as interactive or that will be changing how mazes progress from now on even in small ways? Or large ways. I think the lanterns and the lights are large ways. Yeah. Yeah, so actually last year with the the interactive lantern, I was sort of the point person for all the design on that.

Me and Winston, our lighting designer, he did the implementation of it. But we, I worked with all of the designers on the mazes and said, hey, what do you want, where do you want it what do you want it to do? So I drove that and I was sort of the liaison with our merchandise partners to get all of that going.

Yeah, so with the lanterns, it really is and we do have a 2. 0 lantern coming this year. It's got a spider on it, so I mean, spooky, scheme, scheme to your maze. But I, I wanted them especially, well, I want them to be something that adds to the experience of going here, but it's not just, you know the only thing you're doing in a sense, like there's this, my my opinion, the best way to use technology is to enhance the effect.

Not be like, Hey, look, I've got something here, but more oh, I'm exploring and this is helping me get more out of the world I'm in. So sometimes I get a little I, I think there's a, there's a future where there's some sort of ar. aspect of what we do, but I also don't want people looking through a screen.

I want people to, this was great about the lantern is you were there, and you know, so as you go through the scare zones it should certain areas it'll change color to be in tune with the scare zones. Every maze when you go in will have its own unique color or it'll be like, you know, when you go in it turns to green and then this room it'll turn to red.

So, The goal for me was with the lanterns to not turn our mazes into a hide and seek or like a seek and find kind of event. Because I don't want people looking for things to trigger because the lanterns do trigger elements out in the entire park. That's so cool! There's, you know, there's and it's all the proximity sensor, this that.

But the lanterns will trigger activations in park decor, Jeff Shaddick and his team, Mason and those guys. They're, they've done some incredible stuff out in the park that are triggered by those, and that's the perfect place for that kind of thing. For the mazes, I wanted it to be more subtle so that instead of them trying to find something to trigger, which is ultimately gonna take away from the experience because you're trying to play the maze like a game and then you club, or a talent in the face.

'cause trying to come around a corner that it's more like. Okay, how do we turn a lantern into a lighting instrument there for you? So there'll be moments where it'll pulse like a heartbeat or it'll do this things and there are a couple small things in my new maze that because I Worked so much on the lanterns that I do have a couple moments where some things will like The lights will chase as you go through the lantern with the lantern.

So there are some things there, but it's really just My Maze very much in the sense of it is sort of a different way of looking at things and it's kind of like you're walking into, but I, there's, we've got projections, we've got tons of fog, obviously tons of light, we've got the lantern things, I wanted to use all of that in ways that reinforce and tell the story and don't become, hey, look at this gizmo doing this thing as I go through, so.

How we find out about it, you know, it's, it's just, It's all out there, you know, some people come to us, some people we find, some things we find out about, it's, it's just, we look at all of it, and we just think, how do we make this work with what we're doing, and, you know, can, can we, can we, I don't want to say can we afford it, but is it something that's feasible for this, or does that, trying to implement this one thing come at the expense of so many other things, it's, it's, it's always about finding the right way to make the event better And not make something be a bigger star than any part of the event.

So has there ever been, you're a huge horror fan, Has there ever been a movie, horror or not, that you wish you could design a maze for?

He actually has done a couple movies. Yeah, The Grudge, right? The Grudge, and Beowolf. But Oh golly. I, I mean, I, Hellraiser to me is kind of something kind of funny. That'd be so cool. I'm, I'm, I love to do Cthulhu esque type of things, or body horror, or Cronenberg stuff. That I would love to see.

They're very dark, though, and a bit extreme. So, I'm not sure how much I can get to that, I mean Wax Works has a little bit of body horror in it. It's beautiful, though. It's, it's almost Like sculptures. I think there's a, there's an aspect to it that because we, we do create, we don't, we don't do IP at all, but we're so influenced by these things that we take, there's so many elements of just the way the monsters work in so many movies that I like that have, I've translated into what these things are that I've sort of in some ways scratched that itch by making that type of monster or getting that vibe in a sense.

So you're not left with this, oh, oh man, I'd love to do that. It's well, I did it in my own way, in my own story. Yeah, I mean, what would I like to do a maze on? Gosh. If I could do just the weirdest thing ever that no one would appreciate, I'd probably do a Twin Peaks maze. That would be amazing.

Are you kidding? But it would be like the Bananas Lynch stuff. It wouldn't just be the coffee shop. It would be like the weirdest stuff. Was it the Dark Lodge? What was that called? Yeah, the Dark Lodge. Oh, Black Lodge. But yeah, like that would be that would be so much fun for me. And then they'd be like, what, what, what did you do?

I would, I would die. Try to find a way of doing something like that. Like a Delirium or a Nightmares maze where it's okay, anything can go. Yeah. And you go through the things we create and there's so many of those vibes. So like I said, like we, we don't get to do the thing, but we're influenced by the thing and we're creating our own version of the thing, which is in some way a lot more satisfying.

Yeah, for sure. The other, it's a forbidden fruit here is, I mean I'm a huge fan of The Exorcist and that freaks me out. To no end. And just to do that pseudo religious thing. You know. But, we're a company, and a lot of times they frown about that, so I have to at least do it in a different form.

Ancient gods, or something like that. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay, so this is such a personal question, because the Forsaken Lake Scare Zone is particularly the funeral procession part of it is my absolute favorite thing of all the Halloween things ever. I know this is something that you came up with in like around 2018, right?

But like was that, was that earlier? In 2018? I thought it was a little earlier. But, John Cook was the one who really conceived it. I co designed it with him, yeah. Yeah, I was just gonna ask, like, how, I mean, it's, it's so cool. Yeah. How, how did you come up with it? How did you get this atmosphere under a roller coaster?

Yeah, him and I are both huge fans of John Carpenter and The Fog. And that whole sense of this New Orleans town where the, the tide comes up. And also, how's that, Stephen King Creepshow where there's this great something to tide you over. Yeah, like the creatures are all kind of waterlogged So I think that was a lot of the inspiration that went into this, you know, along with the New Orleans aspect of it.

There's this kind of this creepy, moonlit scarism that's all just underwater, not underwater, but swampy crypts. And It was definitely a feel to it, and of course that led to, okay, how can we reestablish the story? How do we do a processional? You know, that, that would make this unique, and at the time Ken Parks, brilliant director of entertainment, he wanted to do very creative ways of maybe keep it secret.

So, lots of no one knew that there was a processional. Yeah, that's So it just happens. And that just started everyone. He's And everyone At first, there was a lot of people who were kind of mad I wanted to see that. Why it wasn't announced. I was like, that's the whole point. Yeah. It's the fact that you have to discover it.

Yeah, shock and delight. Yeah. But that's It's a wonderful theme park concept of a guest's discovery is so much more important than them just finding it on the map. And and going to it is organized. That's more logical, but You're just stumbling upon it. It's wow. And that was my experience. I think maybe that's why I love it so much.

I remember last year you know, immediately going to find someone who works here, and being like, what time is it at? Where are you guys still doing it? And I know in all of our newer times, or scare zones, we kind of incorporate that. The Gore-ing Twenties has this great cyclical notion where there's a music piece, That plays and then all of them die.

They relive the moment. It actually was one of the first concepts in, in Projection Lake. Where there was tide. There was like a high tide and a low tide. And you'd hear this bell toll and then this The foggers were all supposed to go off at the same time. Ah, that's funny. There's this really cool thing we didn't do.

I think so, yeah, I think. But, we also want to give the freedom to the monsters, too. So they, you know, maybe too much of that is, is too much. So they do a lot of character building. I mean, on all the street zones. They bring in their own creative forces. And that's actually, is another, another The secret sauce of Knott's Scary Farm is that we give that freedom on the streets.

And there's a lot of creative people out there and they are so impassioned with what they do because they feel like they've created this and this is their this is their bit of horror. I even I do try to do a similar thing when I try to train talent because I know most of the people, even in the mazes, they don't, we're not really getting actors.

We're getting guys that. You know, just love to come and scare it. So I try to see if I can get them to connect with what version of you lives here. So, put yourself in this space. Find the you that's here and then bring me that worst version of you. Right? Because they're not actors, really.

If you're in this apocalypse or whatever think of you being in this space. How would you react? Like, how do you bring that to life? If you're on this ship and you were the, you know, you're the engineer of this ship and then these aliens came in and they killed everyone. And now you're still the engineer, but you're this weird mutated version of you.

What are you, how do you react? Find the you, because when I was a performer I like studied improv and things like that. So I, I found my own way to be me, the version of me in the space, but also a performative version. And because we're not actors so much here, you know, I can't say that they're, generally speaking, there's some really talented people, of course, but I try to get them to find, find the you that exists here, ground yourself in that you, so that when you're not always performing, at least you're feeling that vibe, and I think that's just a way of giving more of that ownership if you're in your room and you're tired, in your maze, and you're tired, you're not just tired, you're still 

in there. Yeah, because it's possible to be an imposing presence In the space as opposed to a guy standing there. It's an important concept. We call it idle action as well. Where an actor will be wandering around. In most, most mazes they'll go, they'll boom and they just walk backwards and hide again.

Yeah. But that's not, you know that's not, that's not being a monster. That's not thinking about what that character is. Yeah. So we come up with idle actions. What are they doing when no one's there? Are they just constantly fiddling with the, you know, the bees and Wax Works? Are they tending to them all the time?

And then you are intruding their space. Yeah. Cool. So, that's why, I mean, we try to imbue that with all the talent. And I think that gives us a little bit of an edge. It's a lot of work, and we have a very talented directing team that goes through and, and, and tries to teach that. But I think it actually shows in the end.

So you're not supposed to see them resetting. You're supposed to see them, you know, You know, always being in a character. Right, right. I mean, if you're relaxing in your room and you yell at somebody because they just left the door open or you don't go back to, you don't, you know what I mean?

You're still in your room, right? That's, that's kind of the vibe. You've got to be, you're in this space, and then you go back to being in the space. It's just, that's kind of how we hope that they perform. It prevents them from breaking character. Because there's nothing worse than a guy, and then he slaps you.

You lose the shoulders, and you're like Are you gonna go to Denny's later? There's nothing worse than that, you know. Is it my 10? Well when it comes to your, monsters, your creatures, your scares there's a lot of the collaboration that you talked about between your different departments, your effects, your makeup, your costumes.

Can you go in a little more of, you know, these are your creatures, and, That's bringing them to life as well. Can you go into a little more of that? Yeah, absolutely. Well we do, we write basically what we'll do. I can speak to my experience. All of these characters are very fleshed out in our head this is the world they live in, this is what they do, this is all of this, so we'll write what they are, give them a description, and then we will, we will meet with them at their scare school, go over their characters so that they understand the world, and then we kind of just present them to our great team that runs the event.

So we have each venue has its own supervisor that oversees the way the talent interacts. And you know, we're there, we are not, I'm not here on a night to night basis because we're already working on what's next. But we, that doesn't mean we don't check in. So we'll check in and you know, make sure things are going and if not, we'll give notes to the appropriate people.

But yeah, we, we prep them as best as we can. We write all of the information they have. They have the maze story, they have their character history, they have all of this stuff and we present it to them. We meet with them, we talk over, answer any questions and then we, we hand it off to the teams that run it.

And you know, wardrobe, does their part and we work with them and they do a great job with, you know, costuming and makeup and. Yeah. For the first part, the writing, I remember during COVID, I was working on my Mesmer Maze, and I, it started with Asylum, where I really wanted each of the characters to have individual backstories.

But Mesmer, I went crazy, it was COVID. So, I literally wrote like a page, maybe two pages of backstories, single spaced, of each of the characters and how they met. Mesmer and how they were So they're also so unique though. It was a really interesting backstory.

So each of the posters kind of led into what those backstories are and they all like Spidora Spider Boy. He was a regurgitator and he was challenged to. Swallow on stage, anything. So, he said, this one guy goes, Hey, how about this big spider egg? And he, he swallows the spider, it bursts into his stomach, and then he's just covered in these spider welts, and he dies.

But Mesmer hypnotizes him, and basically he's sort of a zombie in the maze. There's all this backstory. Do I intend everyone to know that when they walk through? I know that that's a bit much, but I still think it tells the character what it is and hopefully it will translate to a certain aspect. We write so much more than anyone will ever see.

But it's good because it is, it's for us, but it's also for that, when people ask questions or a performer asks questions, the more that you know You know way more about your life than you're ever going to tell me in this podcast, right? You're probably not going to tell me anything. But, that all informs the person you are, right?

And how you interact. So that's what we want them to know. We want them to know what this is. Know who you are, know what it is. So that when you are, if that's in the back of your head Oh, yeah, no, I'm this person in this place. And I swallowed the thing and the spiders came out. Yeah, so, oh, did you?

So from, sorry, from that the backstories, we would create character sheets where we basically either draw or do a bunch of research. And that will go over to costuming, and then they will create the costumes from that look. So either guidance from us, but sometimes we like to let them go on their own.

Sometimes they don't want to see any of that, they want to do it themselves, which is perfectly great. I mean, I, this is a collaborative field. I want to see them come to us with as much creativity as possible, because that's really what's going. I mean, I haven't really even seen the spider costumes yet, fully.

So I'm kind of anxious tonight to see them. I'll be peeking out the door. We'll get at them. But, again, that said, we want the characters, we want the actors to come in and bring their own, you know, And that's sort of where I, I go, if it's a specific thing, like his, oh my gosh, Mesmer, they're all so unique and so crazy. I try to keep it, if it's not a specific, hyper specific character, like if you're just townsfolk, I'll just sort of come up with, this is the general scenario, this is what's happening, who are you and what are you doing here?

How are you reacting? So, you know, it's, it's just, it's all this weird combination and that's how we empower them to bring that aspect to it, to make it better. So, we know that both of you got your starts as scare actors. Yes. Do you ever sneak in your mazes and do a night here or there? Once in a while. I did.

I think I do more than you do. Yeah, around five, six years ago, it was a rainy night and I went out and I, Unfortunately did the splits. Oh no! Completely on accident because it was like, and my lower back went, and I had to have a heat pad for like around six months, not six months, you know, a couple months.

But here and there. Sometimes, you know, I I would love to be your grandmother, . I would, we should do it. We should . I was a, I mean, I was castley at one point, which was the people in charge of the at one point in charge of the maze. I would constantly would be dressing up. 'cause most time someone would call out and I go, oh, I'll do that.

And right in there, Tooth Fairy. I love doing Tooth Fairy . Yeah. I liked, I didn't do any last year. It really depends on. If I have the time because we're so busy. It is a lot of fun, but it's also a lot of work and there's also a lot of You have to let everybody know and it's hey I'm gonna be doing this here because you know They see somebody if said like the one guy that didn't get the memo is like whoo.

There's a weird random person and I did have that happen to me when I worked as a talent I did a night in carnival and people were like, who are you and what are you doing here? I'm like, no for real. I'm me nobody told me. I'm like, good grief. But Yes, it is fun. I do like to do it, but being in the position I'm in now, it's so nice to do it for a couple hours and be like, well, that was great.

See you later. It's hard work. It is a lot of work. Yeah, I, man, I, I worked hard. I was a bit, I had a lot of high energy when I was on Monster, and I could not do that again. One night only, kind of, I think. Yeah, one night only. For an hour. Special appearance, until he gets tired and he needs a soda.

So, what advice do you have for those monster makers and nightmare creators that want to do what you two do? For me, it's I think I've already said several times, tell the story. Tell your story. And Make that story be the core of what guides you throughout the process. So the story should, you know, tell you how the buildings look, how the props look, how the monsters are.

And if you stick to that, then you're, you're solid. Yeah, I think even in that just goes for like your home haunt setup, right? If somebody's just doing this simple thing, if it all works together, you know, if, if it all feels like it's telling something together, it just If that's, if you're going for a theme, just stick to the theme and you're, you're already halfway there.

But if you really want to keep doing this, I mean, study, go learn theater, right? Learn the basics. Be prepared to make all of the mistakes in the world. And don't get upset that you made the mistakes, learn from them. It's really just be open to collaboration. None of us have all the answers.

Like we, even what we do, like we're bouncing ideas off each other all the time. It's hey, does this work? Does that we're Collaborate, find like minded people who do what you do and don't be afraid to share and grow the experience and just Have fun. This is not a job.

This is so much fun. I mean, this is the best season. We get to do the coolest decor. We're so lucky that we, like I said, we get to create these massive houses, and we get to put the dolls where we want them. And the dolls are real people! And they're scaring people because of our crazy stuff. We're so lucky, but it's never taken for granted.

You know, it's just, this It's such a blessing that we are able to do this and, and you know, just put your heart into it, have fun with it, always be open to learning. You know, you never know everything. I, I still try to learn something new all the time. Not to put a downer on it, but the, the one thing is also You'll always have a vision, and it'll never be what you envisioned, the reality of it.

Just kind of accept that, and go with the flow. Because sometimes it actually is better than your original vision. I mean, Wax Works is a perfect example. I can show you the maquette of Wax Works, and I think, Letting the sculptor go on their own was far better than actually him following my maquette to the T.

So these things will surprise you. This is actually what makes you excited, is that the fact that this collaboration's coming together of all these ideas is going to give you something superior. Yeah. Yeah. And find a way to solve it. Whatever it is, find a way to solve it. There's nothing that's going to sink the ship.

It's always just going to be what's the board that repairs it and gets you forward. 

What new Frights can Scary Farm attendees expect this year? Beyond the mazes that you just built? Is there new scare zone attractions or anything like that? I think the Gauntlet is getting some cool new decor this year. Is that it? Yeah. There are some new characters out in CarnEVIL

Trying to look at what that pallet is and so the clowns are evolving a little bit. That's kind of fun out there. But yeah, I mean, more of what you've come to expect when you visit and just, brand new year of fun. And scares. Obviously she is a huge fan. I don't know if you were able to tell from her talk today.

You're like, I think it's terrible, but she's a great figure. I've actually never been. Oh! This is going to be my first year. Okay. But we did go to the the opening. And Oh, the announcement fest? The announcement fest. Going into this with, you know, knowing, okay, it's Scary, Elvira and I've always wanted to go, so it's oh, this is perfect, but being in the, the crowd when you were doing the announcement videos that, you know, we got to see, you know, the concept art, which was stunning a little performance and having you know, a very, very hyped crowd, but just being around that and hearing the audience, this is my favorite thing ever, I love, I, I'm so glad they bring this back, I hope they bring this back, I've never heard that level of, of just sheer joy.

With any other haunted attraction and that's something that you know, you've created an atmosphere a legacy as you know as you call it, but also that it is if people are coming here, I mean like people literally screaming yes he's here when that slasher appeared on the screen and I I mean, this isn't even a question this is just something to say that that's really magical.

I'm so excited to go because I want that feeling I want that for next year but you've created something really, really special. Thank you. Yeah, it's it's tough to not, you know get a little emotional. You gotta hide it though, you gotta be cool. But yeah, it's tough. It is, it's very satisfying to be in there and hear that applause and all that stuff.

It's, it's not a bad feeling. One of the reasons why we do it. We do it for the fans. Yeah, I It's we are fans. We are fans. I love I go all over the place like I Couldn't imagine I love this place. I love getting it started. I love creating all these nightmares and getting them going and checking in on it and I love seeing what everybody else does because I'm just such a fan of it I try to hit as many other things as I can during the year just And it's not even so much as oh, we can do that better, it's just, I love the vibe of it.

There's so much fun, I love going to see all the worlds that everybody creates. Although we tend to be very analytical. When we go, it's not very fun to go with us to Yeah, yeah. How do they do that texture on the wall right there? I think that's just cement. I mean, my wife hated it. It's oh, you're just staring again at the walls.

But yeah, I do love opening night. It's really watching people come out of your maze and seeing their reactions, it's, it's great. So I didn't know you did it too, because I do it all the time. The first night going out to your probably, like I'll be out at the exit of Widows and just kind of seeing how people leave the maze and talking about it.

And it's sort of a thrill to especially strangers, people you don't know, and they get it. They got the story, and they got all the scares, and yeah, it's a bit of a very special moment. It can certainly turn a rough night around, that's for sure. Yeah, I, for Asylum, the very first year, it was a little startling because I did it for a couple years, and I would get good reactions, but for that one, people were quiet.

And people were like, you know, somber, and I was like, What is happening? And later I found out that they were, because it was the first time that they really saw a maze like that, they were kind of stunned by it. So, I mean, because I got great reviews of it. And I was like, oh, okay. So They were amazed at how good the talent was that year.

You're in all my mazes, what the heck? I know, I did this, I jumped maze to maze, I did Nightmares, and then I did Malice in Wonderland, and then I did Blood Bayou. Not mine. And then I did Asylum, and my last year in a maze was Hatchet High. So, I did a few. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today.

We , very excited to be seeing you in the fog. Are you going to be there first night? We are, yeah, we are. Excellent. We sure are. Knott's Scary Farm is open September 19th through November 2nd in Buena Park, California.

Come check out Gus and Daniel's Nightmares if you dare. We will be attending the opening night events and we have all kinds of fun coverage for you. So keep your eyes peeled for the latest Scary Farm content. And until next time, sweet screams everyone. And whatever you do, don't fall asleep.