Episode 6: Curbing bootleg immigration law practice in Maine - Interview with Attorney General Aaron Frey

This episode of *Luc's Two Cents* focuses on curbing Unauthorized Practice of Immigration Law.  

 Luc Kuanzambi sits down with Maine's Attorney General, Aaron Frey, to discuss a pressing issue affecting the state's immigrant community: Unauthorized Practice of Immigration Law (UPIL). 

Attorney General Frey welcomes Luc and the listeners from Augusta, highlighting the importance of addressing this critical topic. The conversation delves into the complexities surrounding UPIL, emphasizing the necessity of educating immigrants about their legal rights and the legal services available to them. 

AG Frey explains that UPIL involves individuals who falsely represent themselves as qualified to provide legal services related to immigration, thereby exploiting vulnerable immigrants. He underscores that Maine law mandates that only licensed attorneys or federally authorized legal representatives can provide these services. Unauthorized individuals offering such services not only mislead immigrants but also potentially put them at risk of legal complications.

The episode aims to foster understanding rather than fear, with AG Frey providing clarity on what constitutes legal and non-legal support. He outlines the civil implications of UPIL and stresses the importance of community education to prevent such malpractice. The discussion also touches on the role of trusted community members in offering non-legal support, such as translation services and referrals, while cautioning against providing unauthorized legal advice.

Luc and AG Frey explore the broader impact of UPIL on Maine's immigrant population, highlighting the need for continued efforts to educate and protect this community. Through this dialogue, *Luc's Two Cents* seeks to amplify the voices of immigrants and ensure they receive the support and guidance they need to navigate their legal journeys in the United States.

Transcript

Ad Bridger: 0:01

This episode is brought to you by Xenos Communications Consulting, LLC, the company that facilitates your engagements with immigrant audiences. Stay tuned.

Luc Samuel: 0:11

I bring you greetings from Augusta, the capital state of Maine. Today is a tremendous opportunity for us to dialogue with the Attorney General of the State of Maine, Mr. Aaron Frey. Is that correct?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 0:24

That

Luc Samuel: 0:24

is correct, thank you. We've been tremendously honored to be received and welcomed into his office here in Augusta in order to discuss a very sensitive matter. There's a trending issue within the newly establishing immigrant community in Maine. It is the issue that has been summarized into the acronym U. P. I. L. It simply stands for Unauthorized Practice of Immigration Law. Recently, there's been some charges that were pressed against one member of this community. We will not disclose the name, but it is public knowledge right now. It's available on different news channels and websites. Today we want to sit with Attorney General Frey in order to try and dig deeper into this issue because we believe this issue requires education. A lot of us are coming here from outside of the U. S. with limited understanding of English and also limited understanding of immigration law, and not just immigration law, but legal implications that have come along with our presence here. And this is the right office for us to get some type of education. Today's episode is not intended to frighten anyone, but rather to try and nurture mutual understanding. We want you to hear his viewpoint. And, come to understand what nurtured his desire to tackle this issue. It is not necessarily a crackdown, but really a need to try and curb this malpractice within the community. Because, wherever the numbers are rising, there's always rising issues as well. First of all, I want to start by saying, welcome to this show, Attorney General Frey.

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 2:06

Well, Luc, thank you for joining me today. Thank you for your interest in the work that we're doing. And, I appreciate being with you r listeners, your watchers, and with you to talk about what is an important issue for New Mainers and for communities in terms of making sure they're being properly welcomed to the state.

Luc Samuel: 2:24

Thank you. I wanted us to start this conversation by defining UPIL. Could you try and open our eyes, because most of us are not savvy when it comes to not just the technicality of it, but also the legal dimension of it.

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 2:41

As New Mainers are coming into the state and are engaging in the legal process that's available to certify their citizenship, right? The work that they need to do to make sure that they continue to be in this country legally, it involves the filing of forms, it involves different court work. It involves the legal process just to make sure that literally all the T's are crossed and I's are dotted. And so what happens is if someone is looking for some direction there's a law that says who can and who cannot provide those services, those legal services. And so when we're talking about the unauthorized legal immigration practice the, or the unauthorized immigration legal practice. What we're talking about is those out there who are holding themselves out as somebody who can provide this legal service but really can't, right? So stepping back just a little bit, Maine law makes it clear what services need to be provided by either an attorney or an authorized representative, right? Somebody who's been trained to provide legal services. And so if somebody is providing legal services who's not an attorney. If somebody is providing these legal services who's not an authorized, legal representative to provide these services, they are engaging in the unauthorized practice of immigration law. And so that's what we're concerned about. What we are concerned about, what we saw happening was new mainers who were just trying to make sure that they were doing everything right, getting the right forms, filling them out properly, filing them where they needed to file them, dealing with their court process as the law provides. They were very worried about about making sure they're doing right. They were getting solicited by people who were saying they can help, but really were not authorized to. My office is concerned about that kind of behavior generally. We are concerned about those holding themselves out to do something that they can't. And so when we saw that this was happening, we know the law, we know what people have a right to. It was important that we make sure that we educate people about what their rights are, educate them about what they should expect, and educate folks about who they should be aware of, or be careful of, because they may be provided an unauthorized legal practice.

Luc Samuel: 4:59

I appreciate the feedback AG Frey. Now, I want to look at the size of the population Maine overall has got over more than one million people forming its entire population. And the 2020 general census has indicated that the immigrants represent anything between 3. 5 or 3. 8 percent. of the state of Maine as of those latest censuses. I know you might not have the specific numbers, but what's the scale of this issue in terms of number? Have you been tracking trends in numbers? What's the amount of the immigrant population that has been victimized by this malpractice? And also, what could be possibly the population of the people that are targeting these victims?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 5:45

So, I don't have specific numbers about how many people may have been impacted by the unauthorized practice of immigration law. What we've been working on and tracking for the last couple of years is we have had complaints coming in, from those who believe that they were victimized, from organizations who are working with New Mainers who they believe were victimized. We've received different different evidence, right? Different forms or different reports that, that suggested to us that there was a vulnerability that existed. There was a risk that existed that New Mainers may be at risk of a scam by somebody saying they could provide a service, provide legal immigration support that couldn't. So, I don't have a sense of the number but was hearing enough to know that it was important to educate the community about this being out there. Now here's what's important, right? We had enough reports, we had enough information to suggest that there was a problem. One of the challenges that we identified with how about the scam about the unauthorized practice of immigration law. There was a lot of people who were not reporting, right? This is a, this is why these scams can be so successful because somebody may be using a position of trust they may be, holding themselves out to, to do something. And just like many other scams that my office sees, those who are victimized don't always like to talk about how they were victimized, right? They don't like to talk about how they were taken advantage of. They don't want to talk about how they were in a position, they had somebody in a position of trust who took advantage of them. And particularly with the new manor community, many of these folks are escaping governments that were not concerned about their well being. Quite the opposite. They may have been persecuted by those governments. The last place they might look for help is the Attorney General for the State of Maine, right? In terms of the numbers what we saw was enough of a concern that there were, folks who are out there saying that they could provide services that they were not able to provide. We were getting enough reports from those who were victimized, from those organizations who were working with individuals who are victimized. It let us know that there was enough activity to be concerned about out there. Where we need to get out and educate people about their rights, what they were entitled to, what they should expect, let them know that they need to be aware that there are some folks out there who are looking to take advantage of them and hopefully make folks comfortable with calling the office of the attorney general or reporting when they may, when they believe that they have been victimized by somebody who is scamming them when it comes to the provision of legal services for their immigration needs. So that really, it was enough of a, so I don't have the numbers, going back to the beginning of your question, I don't have the specific numbers about, what's the percentage of those who may have been scammed. I don't have for you the specific number of, complaints that have either come in through organizations or through victims themselves. What I can tell you is that we had enough complaints to identify that this was an issue and we wanted to do everything we could to make people knowledgeable about the scam, knowledgeable about their rights, and hopefully feel comfort that we are here to support those who may have been victimized by somebody holding themselves out to provide legal services that they were not appropriately able to provide.

Luc Samuel: 9:16

Absolutely. Now, it points to a need within the community for legal education. And we're going to talk about it down the road in terms of what you're trying to do, not just to curb this trend, but also to try and bring people into the light, those who could potentially qualify to bring some sort of non legal, will not say paralegal, but non legal support some of the initiatives at least that are fledgling. I don't know if it's okay to talk about it so far, but I want to quickly go back to the nature of this practice. In terms of legal qualification, is it a crime? Is it a dismeanor? What's the difference between a crime and a dismeanor? That's a piece of information and education that we also need.

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 10:02

Yeah! A couple of different pieces that are important to that question. First this there is a law on the books here in Maine that provides what it, what the rights are when it comes to the provision of legal services or non legal services for those who are going through the immigration process. And so what is provided there is it defines what are legal services, basically anything that provides some sort of substance, some sort of direction in helping somebody work through the legal process and making their immigration legal application. Working to answer questions, identifying the forms that need to be used. To make an application helping answer the questions that, that need to be answered. Helping a person through the court process of making sure that their immigration status is secured. That's all in law as legal work, right? Yes. There is some work that, that a non attorney or and by the way, just on that, the law says that an attorney who is licensed in the United States, in Maine, or could be licensed in any other state in the nation, or in the District of Columbia if you're a licensed attorney someplace in the United States, under Maine's law, you can provide legal services for immigration, folks seeking immigration legal services, right?

Luc Samuel: 11:17

Has to be someone who is licensed to practice immigration law or any kind of law?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 11:22

Any kind of law. Any kind of law. Now, as an attorney, I can tell you that, every attorney needs to make sure that they can do the job that they're saying they can do, so there's, there is a competency, right? I totally agree. But it doesn't, there's no special training if you're an attorney. Now the second the second type of person who can provide these types of legal services is It's a federally recognized, federally authorized legal representative. There's a federal law that Maine looks to that says, Hey, if you're a person that has a special certification, you have special training, you don't have to be an attorney, you just have to have the special training. Maine says, Those people can also provide the legal services that are needed when it comes to immigration paperwork.

Luc Samuel: 12:08

And how far, if I may, how far does go the representation? Is it to the point of standing as legal aid, or what is it called, legal counsel during let's say immigration hearings? Or is it just limited to preparing the paperwork and getting the applicant ready for the hearing?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 12:28

So I know that for, so the attorney of course would be available through the entire process. What I'm not recalling immediately off the top of my head is whether or not the federally authorized representative would stand in court. I do know, however, that there are times where the law will recognize that somebody who's not an attorney is still able to provide services in court for different individuals. I'm suspecting although maybe as a footnote for your listeners out there, we can confirm. But the federally authorized representative, they are trained on how to assist a person through the whole process. So I'd be surprised if that federally authorized representative would not also be available in court. The point is because, because the non attorney representative because they're trained, they're gonna know exactly, or they should know, right? The law requires that they at least have the training to know, Exactly what needs to happen for a new Mainer or, somebody who's working through the immigration legal process. These folks are trained on how to help them through that. So the short answer to your question is both attorneys, regardless of where they're licensed and non attorneys who are federally authorized representatives under a federal law, they are able to provide these legal services, helping answer questions, helping pick out the forms to file, helping file. The forms with the court and helping a person through the court process. That's what Maine law recognizes as people who can provide those services. Now, Maine law does also provide for certain non legal services to be provided by anyone. And those non legal services include simple translation a number of folks who, are coming into the United States, coming to Maine from other countries. There's a diversity of languages that that folks have. And a person can can provide translation from what the form says, right? Provide word for word translation for what a, an applicant will answer, right? They can't change what the applicant is saying. They have to, it has to be word for word, what the applicant is saying. But you don't have to be an attorney or you don't have to be an authorized representative to, to just do that translation, right? Now, if you start to suggest, oh, you should say this or you should say that, you're getting into dangerous territory, right? Because that's when you're providing advice. But just a simple translation, that's fine. If you if if a newbainer or somebody who's like looking to apply knows that they need a certain form, they can ask somebody. Hey, can you pick up that form for me? That's fine, right? Just picking up something can't, the person picking up the form can't recommend which form should be used because again, that's providing legal advice. But Maine law says, hey, if you're just getting something for somebody, getting a form for somebody, that's okay. Maine law also recognizes that a non attorney, a non authorized representative, they're able to refer somebody. If if, say you, you were in the process, you use somebody and you tell somebody, hey, you should go see Aaron Frey about this. You can do that. That's not providing legal advice. That's just making a referral. Main law recognizes that there are some non legal things that relate to the legal process that can be provided. Now this gets to the point of, if you are providing legal services when you shouldn't be. Right? Maine law does say that's a violation. Now it's just a civil violation. And it's important here because there is a difference between civil and criminal law. So this is a civil violation the attorney general for the state of Maine is able to bring an action if we have evidence that somebody may have violated Maine's law, right? So if we have evidence that somebody provided legal services to a person who's seeking some relief through the immigration process, but they weren't qualified to provide those services. The Attorney general can bring a civil action to stop that from happening and to seek any other damages that might have occurred as a result of that unlawful act of providing immigration services when they weren't supposed to sell...

Luc Samuel: 16:26

When does it escalate into a criminal situation? Let's say, when does it make it a criminal charge?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 16:32

It'd probably only be if there was evidence of theft, or there was evidence of some type of misrepresentation that involved involved some exchange of money. But those are crimes no matter what, right? The but when it comes to providing some sort of unauthorized practice of immigration law, that would probably be in the civil realm. But, again, Unless we, we got evidence that a person was take, like taking money from somebody separately like picking their pocket or taking their banking information and draining their bank accounts or boy, I can't think immediately as to what other types of criminal conduct might happen. But again, what Maine's law says about people who are providing these immigration legal services, but they're not supposed to. Maine law's primary concern is to deal with this in a civil way, right? Not putting people in jail, not not getting them convicted of a misdemeanor or felony. It's really about stopping that person from providing this practice and, if there was like some service that was provided that, or paid for that wasn't provided, if there was some consequence to somebody who got services that were not appropriate services. Maine's law is concerned about making sure that victim is made whole. This the law that we're talking about that addresses the unauthorized practice of immigration law. That doesn't create a criminal action. It's also important for another reason, by the way, right? It's a lesser standard. So in, in the law a civil action a civil case has a lower burden of proof than a criminal action, which has a higher standard of proof. Why that matters is it makes it a lot easier if there's evidence of a scam to address it through a civil action than it would be to address it through a criminal action.

Luc Samuel: 18:20

Excellent. Now, I want to piggy tail to some of the things you said. This need for education that there is within this community, it's a fledgling community. That's at least how I view it because the traditional Mainers have been around and they're certainly familiar with the law of the land. But these newly arriving populations are just opening their eyes to English. On the one hand, but also to the rules and regulations that govern in this environment. Now, one way of massively reaching populations and educating them, it's by doing things like this podcast or trying to amplify your voice and making sure that we can expand your reach within the immigrant community. For people to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, if I may use the imagery. Now, what if a New Mainer comes up with, let's say a podcast, where they're giving step by step guidance to people about how to go about and deal with their immigration situation. Is that UPIL or does it not qualify for UPIL?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 19:28

So that's going to depend, right? So it's one thing to, to say. Folks who are just starting this process, it's important that you're attentive to the legal obligations that you have, right? It's important that you become educated about what you have to do to, to file and certify, to get your immigration process certified. You can say it's important that you identify. An appropriate support, an attorney or somebody who's authorized to provide the is a federally authorized representative to do this? You can recommend all of those things. If you put out there, this is how you should fill out your form. These are the forms you should use. This is what you should do in court. That's where, if that's what you're broadcasting, that's where if you're not an authorized, if you're not authorized to provide that advice. That's where that's where you could get into some trouble.

Luc Samuel: 20:26

No, I agree.

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 20:26

And, but let me add, by the way, we do recognize that, because you mentioned, those who may have more established, they've gone through the process. So they folks who have gone through the process will have a, an experience that they can share, right? We recognize that there are going to be some number of individuals who they've had the experience they're enthusiastic to help, those who are just beginning their application to secure their immigration status here in the United States, here in Maine. Who, may just in good faith provide some advice that they really shouldn't be providing but, they just they want to be helpful. They're not accepting money for it, they're not like, they're just trying to help somebody new out because they know how important it was that maybe they had some support. We're not looking to like target folks who are, in good faith, just trying to be helpful. We might tell them to, stop providing legal advice but those aren't the folks that we're talking about.

Luc Samuel: 21:22

Absolutely.

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 21:23

That we're focused on bringing in action. So to your point, if you have a podcast or, if you have some online resource, just, it's important to say, hey folks, it's, you have a timeline here, right? You have a process you're going to do, pay attention to that. Here are some, go to the, to ILAP the Immigration Legal Advocacy Project. Go to, yeah, Maine Equal Justice. Go, find your local non profit or find your local advocacy group, that can help direct you. ILAP, for example, has four, has guides in different languages on their website. So folks can go, hopefully in their own language, be able to, See what it is that they themselves need to be concerned about. These are provided by trained lawyers, by the way some, ILAP or, or Pine Tree Legal, right? Yes, Pine Tree. There's different forms that, or different guides that provide direction. My office also has a website you can go to the Office of the Attorney General website here in Maine. There's a section that we have dedicated to those who are. Who are, seeking advice on immigration legal process.

Luc Samuel: 22:29

And it's in different languages?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 22:31

We have five different languages right now that's available. We are working on more, but to get it up and running we started with five. And it tells you, what your rights are, who can provide different services, and links to who you might look to for a resource, right? Like the immigration, like ILAP

Luc Samuel: 22:51

I appreciate you saying that, A.G. I want, as a segue, I just want to indicate that there's a serious shortage of qualified immigration lawyers or lawyers in the state of Maine to tackle this growing population of asylum seekers. And, as of 2018, 17 or 18 if I'm not wrong, some of the local pro bono organizations put out a statement to let the newcomers know about the fact that they had a manpower shortage and therefore many of them will find themselves facing the deadlines of the court date without legal support. And that situation could have been part of what has triggered this situation as well of UPIL. I'm putting that out there to put things in perspective, not to be the devil's advocate. But just to indicate that This is an organic situation developing on the ground where people sometimes have to vie for themselves, fend for themselves, and it puts people in harm's way because either they're getting poor service because they're getting it from people who are not qualified, or on the other end, they just end up in the hands of the charlatans that would take advantage of them. Now what you're doing right now Is really important because we believe, this is just a quick feedback, you're trying to establish a working understanding with the community. On the one hand, it's good to hear that not just the non profit organizations that are working around this effort, this immigration effort, and to try and alleviate the burden to the state, also giving you feedback about things that they feel like are going haywire, but also whistleblowers within the community. I don't know how significant or small number, but these are good things because it shows that they know which door to come and knock to. And this is part of why we wanted this feasibility for your office through this podcast to make sure that people know where to go when they really need help, especially when there seems to be no attorney available because everyone is overbooked for a long period of time for them to really get support. Now, I want to talk about the education piece. Could you try and discuss with us if it's okay to disclose once again the arrangement you made recently so that a handful of folks may get some non legal education for them to be able to assist?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 25:18

So I want to pick up on something that you just mentioned that will also answer the question that you just asked. So First, you're right, so we're, what was important is that we educate folks about what their rights are when it comes to accessing legal services, immigration legal services. We did see that there was this unauthorized practice of immigration law that was that was a concern. That there were victims out there who were, losing money, had their immigration, legal processes compromised which, jeopardized their ability to remain here in the United States. We were seeing these things happening. We were seeing services provided by people who are not authorized to provide them. So you're right. That's what, so we can provide that education. We can hold accountable those who are scamming people. And by scams, by the way, again, I want to be clear, we're not talking about the folks in good faith who just offered a little bit of advice here and there. We're talking about people who are taking money. to provide services that they can't provide and don't provide. Absolutely. And so that's number one. Now you, but you identified exactly what we, the problem that we get to, which is, so we educate people about their rights. We educate folks what they have to be weary of folks, new Mainers. They still have to apply for their, to make their applications, make their immigration applications. And so we can tell them Don't do, don't use the person who isn't trained, but that doesn't mean there's then somebody right there who is trained to provide that help, right? That's what you identified, very accurately, which is, so we can say, hey look, don't use those people, but then somebody who's just looking for help is then what do I do, right? And two things, one, we are this goes to your question, my office identifying that there really is a shortage of individuals who are able to provide the legal services that are needed by the new Mainers who are making their applications to secure their immigration status. It's our hope to provide support for, people who are licensed as attorneys who want to volunteer some of their time but are not yet doing so. We're working to incentivize that so providing, because as I mentioned earlier, any attorney can do it. They don't have to have special training, but, there are some attorneys who want to make sure that they're up to speed, if you will, right? Yes, absolutely. Because, they want to be conscientious. They want to be good stewards of their client's legal needs. So You know we're incentivizing some training for them and for non attorneys we are working with, relevant groups, relevant immigration support groups to identify different community members who want to be available to provide these services underneath the non attorneys who are being federally authorized representatives, right? There's trainings that that we can provide scholarships to that can help train these, train some folks up. Not immediately, right? This is not an immediate, this will not be an immediate success, but what my office is doing is we are providing some scholarships for some number of non attorneys to receive training that will enable them to be federally authorized, legal immigration represent, legal representatives. We think that by doing that, it will help increase the capacity so that folks who are looking for trained people will find them. Now, it's going to take some time for that to happen and we're not, look, this is not the solution. There are a lot of really engaged, talented, meaning people across the board who are working very hard to help support those New Mainers who are looking to secure their immigration status. Let me add one other thing. During this time People might be looking for support for their immigration legal process that can't find an appropriate support. The answer is never going to be give money to somebody who's not trained to do it. I agree. So what this means is, do think about where you can go to get guides that will help you at least find the right form, like on the immigration legal advocacy project, right? Like on ILAP. They do have guides on how to represent yourself through these immigration proceedings. If you can't find somebody, if it's taken a little bit of time for us to work with others to help train people up remember there are guides that you can use to at least make sure you're doing everything that you can right to, that are again prepared by lawyers to do that. So that's a long way to say we're going to do what we can to help support. Increasing the number of people attorneys and non attorneys who are authorized to provide these legal services for those making their immigrant immigration applications. And we just want to stress that while that's, while that's coming online the answer is never going to be, give money to somebody who can't do it. But it, but that's, I am sensitive to the fact that means it's it is going to be a period of time before people are trained up to provide some services for folks who are looking.

Luc Samuel: 30:11

People are facing a situation that might require some of them to do self representation. In court or in any other proceedings where they have to change their legal status here moving from asylum seeker to becoming a permanent resident and potentially moving toward a path to citizenship. Now the education they need, they can certainly get it through those organizations who are helping but also one of the ways they can get education is by, getting access to mass media that are educating them about all basics. I want to go back to this issue of mass media and education. Would it be legal for someone who gets one of those trainings you mentioned to finally start a podcast or start any mass media communication venture or initiative that ends up educating the masses? And how far does it go with if it is legal or within the range of legality, or does it become illegal or criminal, or, let's say, becomes a dismeanor or anything else or UPIL if they start charging monies for such education?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 31:26

I guess thinking through that. So if you are. If you are an authorized, if you're an attorney, or if you're an a federally authorized representative, that can provide certain immigration legal services, there wouldn't be, you would not be pro, you would not be engaged in the unauthorized practice of a law if you are, if you're, providing guides or providing information on a website or on a podcast. About what people should do. I will say that just like any attorney can provide advice to people about if they get stopped, if they, if there's like a traffic stop, or if they've been arrested, or if they've been charged, or maybe, advice about a land dispute, right? An attorney could, do a, like a website that says this is what you're Yeah. But every case is fact specific, right? Yeah. Absolutely. As you indicated in the question, you have folks who are looking to get their status changed from like asylum seeker to a permanent resident. Yeah. Each person has their own story. Each person has something very specific that they need to present in order to secure their status. While somebody who is authorized could provide their status a guide or could provide information about what a person should do without running a foul of the law, without violating the law. There really isn't going to be much that a person could do who's authorized on a mass basis to really get down into the facts that matter for filing a, for filing an application. Now, and I just want to give an example. I mentioned ILAP. ILAP does have guides up that, that walk a, an applicant in an immigration legal process. They will walk an applicant through what they should expect And, what forms they should be looking for and what those forms are for. That's providing advice. ILAP is able to do that, right? ILAP has the training to, and is, a number of attorneys there who can provide that guide that is educating people on what their legal situation is. My office is able to provide You know hey, this is what the law says about what you can expect, right? We are providing legal advice in that sense. It's general legal advice about what the law says. We're not, but, so just getting back to your question, somebody could put up, hey, this is how the process works. These are the forms that you should look to in order to make a certain application. This is how court's going to go. This is stuff that probably would be legal advice, right? Yeah. If they're authorized, they can do it. But probably just ethically and because there's really no way that they could do it in a meaningful way, you really won't see, to a mass population, advice on how a person should specifically answer questions.

Luc Samuel: 34:05

And as a wrap up, when does one need the Office of the Attorney General? What are the services? What's the range of services you provide outside of trying to curb this issue of UPIL?

Atty Gnrl Aaron Frey: 34:19

Yeah, so the, basically the summary of what we're doing is, we're, making sure to provide information about what the rights are for people, right? Get them educated about what they should expect and what they can be protected from. We want to provide a resource to direct people to where they can, get accurate information, right? What that way, so like our website, right? Provide some direction as to where you can go or what you should ask for. And we want to let people know that if you believe that you have been the victim of a scam that somebody who is not authorized has, charged you money or has, said that they can do something and you know they can't. On our website we do have a complaint form. It can be filed anonymously where we will receive complaints about what people are doing. If if there's some merit to the complaint if there's something about the complaint that gives us concern, maybe we call somebody up and just say, knock it off or maybe we bring a civil action to stop the activity, right? So in terms of my office, in this, by the way, this is very generally what my office might do for any consumer, right? Because this really is about consumer protection. Yeah. We want consumers to be educated about what their rights are. We want consumers to know what they should expect. We want consumers to, to have good direction. And if they receive bad direction, we want them to know that they might be able to make a complaint to my office and. We can address that, right? We can help protect them from a violation. We can help address the scam activity. Specifically to the unauthorized practice of immigration law, we want people to know their rights. We want people to know what they should expect and be directed to the right place. We want people to know that if they think that they've been scammed, they can make a complaint to us. And we want them to know that if we find that somebody has been, unlawfully providing immigration legal services, they that we will take action to protect the community from those actions. So that's really the range of what we provide there. But we do that for a lot of other consumer things too, right? So it's it really we hope people will feel comfortable if they believe that they have been the victim of a scam, that they will give us a call.

Luc Samuel: 36:23

Attorney General Frey, we really appreciate your time and thank you indeed. As a wrapping, I just want to tell all of our listeners and viewers that There's a Kongo proverb, a Kongo saying, that goes like this, He who has ears has to listen." This has been extensively detailed and crystal clear. I hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you.

@Nathy: 38:30

Have you ever craved a thought provoking podcast that tackles today's issues with an even hand? Look no further than"Luc's 2 Cents," a podcast created, produced, and published entirely by Luc and his independent venture, Xenos Communications Consulting, LLC. Luc, an immigrant with a passion for fostering understanding, has poured his heart and limited resources into developing this pilot season. Luc's 2 Cents strives to bridge the divides of today's political landscape. Luc believes in open discussions that don't shy away from complexity and welcomes listeners from all walks of life. To ensure ideological neutrality, Luc refuses to compromise his vision by accepting funding that might influence the show's content

Luc: 39:17

Thank you Liany Media for your role in filming this episode.

39:23

This episode was brought to you by Xenos Communications Consulting, LLC, the company that facilitates your engagements with immigrant audiences. Till next time.