HipHop Talks Podcast
Greatest Rappers vs Greatest Albums Pt. 2
We take a nostalgic journey through NBA history, celebrating legendary teams and players. From Magic Johnson's unparalleled career to Steph Curry's game-changing victories, we debate what defines true greatness on the court. We don't just stop at the highlights; we dissect pivotal moments, the impact of injuries, and the defensive genius of players like Dennis Rodman and teams like the 1996 Chicago Bulls. This is a must-listen for any basketball aficionado.
Switching gears to hip-hop, we analyze the careers of icons like J. Cole, Kendrick Lamar, and the legendary Wu-Tang Clan. Ever wondered how modern artists stack up against veterans like Scarface and KRS-One? We emphasize the significance of historical knowledge and the impact of classic albums, drawing parallels between the competitive landscapes of hip-hop and basketball. This episode is a rich blend of sports and music nostalgia, filled with thoughtful critiques and engaging discussions that will leave you craving more.
We take a nostalgic journey through NBA history, celebrating legendary teams and players. From Magic Johnson's unparalleled career to Steph Curry's game-changing victories, we debate what defines true greatness on the court. We don't just stop at the highlights; we dissect pivotal moments, the impact of injuries, and the defensive genius of players like Dennis Rodman and teams like the 1996 Chicago Bulls. This is a must-listen for any basketball aficionado.
Switching gears to hip-hop, we analyze the careers of icons like J. Cole, Kendrick Lamar, and the legendary Wu-Tang Clan. Ever wondered how modern artists stack up against veterans like Scarface and KRS-One? We emphasize the significance of historical knowledge and the impact of classic albums, drawing parallels between the competitive landscapes of hip-hop and basketball. This episode is a rich blend of sports and music nostalgia, filled with thoughtful critiques and engaging discussions that will leave you craving more.
let's go what's good bro what up, man? Good to actually see that you're at home, fam I literally just got here, like about an hour and a half ago, just got here jet lag.
Speaker 2:Don't feel bad. I just woke up about an hour ago, so it's a beautiful thursday.
Speaker 1:Man feels good outside. I'm glad to be back home yo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good day. The struggle to grind is a beautiful thing. Like I I don't know about you I appreciate my grind more in my 40s than I did when I was in my 20s and 30s. I look at it differently. You know what I'm saying. Like I'm more appreciative. First of all, I'm appreciative to be here because a lot of us, as black men coming from the circumstances we come from, are not here or in more dire situations than you and I are, if they are here, has been incarcerated, haven't left the neighborhood or just not doing well, you know what I mean, and so I always like have the perspective. I was even telling, I was telling this OG.
Speaker 2:I met, matter of fact, one of the guys I work with. He's from the Bronx, he's from Boogie Down, he's in his 50s, me and him was just talking it's like yo, I see you tomorrow, coop. I'm like, yeah, I was like I just need to wake up and get it. I don't really need anything else, I just need the opportunity to wake up and get it. I don't think I thought that way when I was just so busy trying to get something. It's like I just really wanted to get out. You know what I'm saying Now. I'm so far removed from being out, it's like now I just want to get up. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you appreciate things different now than you did back then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, totally. I was working to remove myself from my situation and now I'm looking at it, it's like 20 years removed from my situation. What the fuck am I doing?
Speaker 1:Right right, right right. You live in your childhood. You live in your childhood.
Speaker 2:This is a glorious time. We're going to have some fun today. Shout out to AG Stacks, andrew Taj, home Team Shit. We got content coming this weekend coming up, it's about to be good.
Speaker 1:We got so much we have to break it down in three parts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, possibly four.
Speaker 1:Really four.
Speaker 2:Think about it, might be a four-peat. They haven't been a four-peat since the Celtics. We've seen a four-peat Might be one of those situations.
Speaker 1:Four-peats since the Celtics Bill Russell's Celtics by the time we've seen a four-peat.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Might be one of those situations. Four-peats are nasty, four-peats are hard to pull off Facts, facts yeah, I think Golden State had a legit shot if KD doesn't tear his ACL. But other than that, we haven't had any legitimate threats in our lifetime, except for Mike and the Golden State Warriors. Those are only legitimate threats because the Lakers and Boston and Detroit weren't going to let each other win that many.
Speaker 1:No, not at all, not during that time. They were not about to let that happen.
Speaker 2:And the 76ers? They were not about to let that happen. You know, those four teams won all of the titles in the 80s. Four teams won all the titles. They were going at each other, yeah, and Magic won half of those. Magic won half of those, like Magic won five of those ten.
Speaker 1:You know it's crazy because we don't talk about Magic enough in that discussion. Magic came out the gate winning and we don't talk about it.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is just for me personally. I still think he's the second greatest basketball player of all time. I can see that Like people having the Magic Johnson like Steph Curry conversation. First of all, that's not even a conversation for me. No, it's not, it's really not.
Speaker 1:It's really not. It's not a conversation, it's not. Magic was 6'8", 6'9" playing point guard running the floor general at 6'8", 6'9". He wasn't a small 6'8", 6'9".
Speaker 2:He was actually a broad Magic. Yeah, you Pauls, he was actually a broad. I mean you have to understand, from the time Magic stepped on the NBA basketball court he could blow by you or post you up Absolutely. When he got a jump shot it was pretty much over.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. He could play every position on the floor.
Speaker 2:Every position. I mean people understand this. It's like no, he has five rings, he has three MVP awards, he has three finals MVP awards. He has the highest assist average in NBA history to this day. Like how about this? Kobe's closer to Mike at the shooting guard position than any point guard is to Magic at the point guard position.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:Isaiah and Steph are not that close to Magic, Absolutely Magic.
Speaker 1:He could have actually averaged a triple-double if he really wanted to.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, he's not only the assist leader, he's the best passer of the basketball in NBA history. He literally Showtime, yeah. And I mean, and as far as his basketball IQ, he's only rivaled by LeBron and Mike. As far as his actual on the court IQ and understanding of what to do with the game, I mean this is a guy that could dominate a game, scoring five points Right.
Speaker 1:Right On both ends, right Right.
Speaker 2:On both ends. On both ends. Yeah, like LeBron can't do that, mike can't do that, kobe can't do that, kareem can't do that, magic can do that Magic can do that I think the only person that I've seen like that in his prime Jason Kidd could do some of that in his prime. Like Jason Kidd would have like nine points and be like, yeah, but he just totally controlled the game.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 2:That's a fact.
Speaker 1:He did in such a short time. I think because his career ended pretty fast, if you think about it, because he hasn't had that longevity if you want to compare it to the other greats, Even Larry Bird, Larry Bird didn't have a lengthy career. Those guys did what? Eight, nine years maybe at that time, Maybe I mean people don't understand.
Speaker 2:I think Magic played I mean 79 to 92 and then came back 95, 96. So he actually only straight played a legit 12 years straight 12 years yeah. Yeah, and he made the finals eight of those 12 years yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. Nine, nine, he's 5'4". Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So nine of the 12 years he made the finals and I think, if I'm not mistaken, mistaken of those three times he didn't make the finals, I believe he was in the western conference finals another two of those times. So there's only like one time that he played like, officially played like in his prime, where he wasn't one of the last four teams standing like.
Speaker 1:Nobody can say that except for bill russell, indeed, indeed, he's one of the family now. He had a good team. He had a good team, but still he was the best player.
Speaker 2:Kareem was without Magic for five years and didn't win shit Right, but an MVP award or two. He won a couple of MVPs without Magic, but he didn't win anything that mattered in a team sport without Magic. That's why I have Magic ahead of Kareem, indeed. Yeah, kareem needed somebody like Oscar Robinson early and somebody like magic in the middle and late.
Speaker 1:Like kareem couldn't do it without those guys, absolutely, and you got magic on your number two list, right as far as one of the greats. Yeah, he's number two on my list. Okay, okay, I deal with that, that's good for me it goes mike magic.
Speaker 2:It's just too absurd what LeBron is doing to have him any lower than three. So I'd have to have him at three, kareem would probably be four, and if it's a team game, bill Russell has to be in your top five.
Speaker 1:You got to put Bill Russell up there somewhere, man.
Speaker 2:He got to be in the top five.
Speaker 2:Well, here's another thing people don't understand about Russell. You know he'd have 12 rings had he not got hurt in one of those finals. Right, he got hurt in one of those finals, like they were up 3-2. He got hurt in game five. They lost the next two games without him. That series was over, if he doesn't get hurt. So he actually would have won 12 out of 13. That's crazy, yeah, so it's like it's the nuances of it. That's why it's like, well, I tell people, it's like Golden State was about the three-peat and then KD ruptured his Achilles and that's why you can't ever tell me Steph is better than KD, because when KD got hurt he couldn't beat Kawhi in the Toronto Raptors, right, right right Right right.
Speaker 2:Right, like you couldn't beat Kawhi on a team that he hadn't even played with for a year without KD, but I'm supposed to believe that you're arguably the greatest point guard of all time. That discussion ended for me right there. It's not even the two finals MVP awards, it's the fact KD went down.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you couldn't even get seven games out of Toronto.
Speaker 1:You couldn't. The only reason and I'm a big Steph Curry fan, the only reason we put him up there is because he changed the way the game has been played.
Speaker 2:He's more revolutionary than.
Speaker 1:KD, he's not better.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's more revolutionary.
Speaker 1:That's the biggest thing because remember when he first came I think his first seven to eight years he's been injury prone. He's always had ankle issues. Really couldn't get through the playoffs. That's when we had Monte Ellis and those guys during that time in Golden State and he finally took that next step, that big step, that big step he made it together.
Speaker 2:Not being funny, it's, you've played in six finals. You have one finals mvp. None of the other greats that played in six finals are walking around with one finals mvp. They walking around with about two or three or four. That's true. It's just a fact. Everybody in his in his realm that has played in that many finals that's considered to be an all-time great player. They're walking around with more finals mvps than that they are. I think Wade might be the only one, but I think he's a greater all-time player than Wade. Like Wade's, right outside of that discussion. But as far as like Larry Bird, magic Johnson, shaq Kobe, tim Duncan, hakeem, will Bill Kareem, like KD, like all those guys that have played in four finals or more, all those guys are walking around with at least two finals MVPs. Like at least.
Speaker 1:At the very least. Yes, yes, yeah, mike got six. They dominated yeah.
Speaker 2:Mike got six. Yeah, lebron has four. Yeah, bird has two. Magic has three, kd has two, hakeem has two. Tim Duncan has two. Hakeem has two. Tim Duncan has three. Shaq has three. Yeah, yeah, kareem's got two. Kareem has two. Mvp award is named after Bill Russell. For God's sake.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think Olajuwon has two, doesn't he?
Speaker 2:Hakeem got two. Yeah, he went twice and he got two. That's why he has two, i't he? Olajuwon has two. Yeah, that's what he said. Hakeem got two. Yeah, he went twice he got two.
Speaker 1:That's what he has two. I'm sorry he went three times. He went three times.
Speaker 2:They lost to the 86 Celtics.
Speaker 1:That's what they had on. It was the Twin Towers back then. It was him and Raph Sampson. Yeah, that was a young Hakeem as well. That was a young Hakeem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean young Hakeem was good for 25 and 12. Yeah, he had also Ralph Samson with him, but that 86 Celtics team was something different.
Speaker 1:It was a cheat code, man.
Speaker 2:That team was a cheat code. That team, that 82 Sixers team, 87 Lakers team, mike's 96 Bulls, those are probably the best teams that we've seen in this modern era.
Speaker 1:The 96 Bulls was a special team bro.
Speaker 2:You had four of the guys who started made all defensive first or second team. People always look at Mike's scoring. It's like no, the 96 Bulls might be the best defensive team ever.
Speaker 1:Mike ever. I think the average score was like 75 to 80. They were giving up in a playoff.
Speaker 2:People struggled to get past half court in 10 seconds against them. They would come out in the third quarter and be like so this is over. I remember watching the game it was probably maybe Kobe's second year, the 97 version of the team, maybe and the Lakers were up by like 24, maybe at like halftime and Kobe was like talking shit to Scottie and Mike and I remember like Scottie was just like you should slow down, right, and they just they just locked everybody down, including Kobe, like yeah, so like y'all are done scoring points here, and that's with Shaq, like y'all are done scoring points here Prime Shaq, not just any Shaq, that's prime Shaq, you're done.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, you're done. Scoring points, big man's going to get his 30. The rest of y'all are getting nothing. They were like that defensively. They're the best defensive team I've ever seen.
Speaker 1:Ron Harper, scottie Pippen and MJ that trio at the top and Dennis Rodman yeah, dennis Rodman on the backstop.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm saying. So you get past Scottie Pipp. Dennis Rodman is waiting for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's guarding every man on the court.
Speaker 2:Well, he changed everything for them, because it's like no, we're not doubling Carl Malone, we're not doubling Charles Barkley, why would we? We have Dennis Rodman. We're not doubling Tim Duncan, we're not doubling KG, we're not doubling anybody. We got Rodman. So all we need to do is lock down the wing.
Speaker 1:That's it, and that was easy work to lock down that wing.
Speaker 2:Those guys are going to get their points, but he's about to make them work. They're going to be tired by game four or five of this series. That's really what happened to Utah.
Speaker 1:And Utah was technically a better team. Technically, they were a better team Team.
Speaker 2:They ran a better offense, they had a better system, they had been together longer. Yeah, but look at the Karl Malone in the fourth quarter of those games, past game four yes, lift on the legs, ain't the same when Rodman's talking shit to you. Yeah, all that, he was different. Yeah, rodman doesn't get enough credit. He doesn't. No, rodman's a better defender than anybody who's played NBA basketball in the last 20 years, like Draymond, ben Wallace, all these guys none of them are better than Dennis Rodman defensively.
Speaker 1:He didn't take plays off like that. He had a high motor and he took pride in playing defense. He didn't care about the score and Rodman could score. People forget Rodman, with the Pistons, could score. He took more pride in rebounding and doing the other things he was a double-digit score for the Pistons.
Speaker 2:They had a team full of scorers, and he was a double-digit scorer.
Speaker 1:Think about this it's like Joe Tumars Isaiah.
Speaker 2:Thomas and Vinnie Johnson took most of the shots.
Speaker 1:Yeah, make no mistakes about it, he had better pride. He wanted that pride to play defense and get rebounds. They don't have that today. Today's NBA, everybody wants a score People understand.
Speaker 2:Young Dennis Rodman was fast enough and agile enough to actually guard Mike Like he would guard Mike sometimes when he was with the Pistons, like he would guard Mike Like one-on-one. One-on-one yes, yes, yeah, he was different Special guy, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I met him.
Speaker 2:I met him when I lived in Cali. I had a beer with Dennis Rodman once.
Speaker 1:I bet that's a story right there within itself.
Speaker 2:You want to know what's crazy. He's actually one of the quietest and nicest stars that I've ever met. Oh, wow, he is extremely quiet and mild manner, like it was actually tough pulling words out of him. And I'm one of those people when I get to like meet stars or like sit down and break bread with them, I don't ask questions about like oh, I was watching you, I don't do that shit, I just really kick it. You know what I'm saying. So I just kind of kicked it with him. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:I was like what you about to get into today, type shit, because he was at my bar. You know what I'm saying. So when I got off, I was like yo, I was like I'm going to pull up and have a drink with you, sat down and chopped it up for about an hour. But really nice guy, actually Really really nice guy. Him and Mike Tyson actually are two of the nicest people I've ever met. I met Mike in the same spot that I met Dennis at. They both used to hang out at the same spot that I used to work at.
Speaker 1:Mike was the same way that was in Cali right, yeah, this was in Orange County. Orange County okay.
Speaker 2:You know them niggas had money by the time I met them you know what I'm saying. They wasn't like chilling in fucking.
Speaker 1:Englewood or no shit. You know what I'm saying? Not at all.
Speaker 2:They'd be in Orange County chilling. But yeah, you could like pull up on them and talk to them. You know what I mean. They just didn't like all the groupie shit. So it's like if you walked up on oh Mike, I remember when you knocked out Michael Spence Stars don't like shit like that. You know what I'm saying. They like it. When you're like yo, what up, trying to knock one back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I actually left him. He was still sitting at the bar when I left. I had shit to do. It's like I'm not about to sit here and kick it with fucking Dennis Rodman all day.
Speaker 1:I got a, you got shit to do. They're being there chilling.
Speaker 2:Look, there's one rich motherfucker at this table, and it's not me. Gotta make moves, brother. It's been real. No doubt I've always been that way. I met Earth, Wind, Fire in that same spot too.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, and they're wild. That's the big spot for the show. Yeah yeah, this was a hot spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a hot spot, it was a hot spot. Yeah, it was a hot spot. Yeah, tim brown, eddie george, uh, when they used to record their sports show there, I remember the fox sports show that they used to do yep, I worked at that bar.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh, so that's, that's the real hangout bar. Yeah, that's what they yeah I used to.
Speaker 2:I used to take care of them before and after the show okay eddie george is a nice guy too.
Speaker 1:I met eddie george. I met eddie george in nashville actually, yeah, nashville a couple of times. He actually frequents the uh, the cigar shop out there next to the uh stadium okay yeah, I can see that eddie's a nice guy.
Speaker 2:You know I'm a notre dame fan. Tim brown's a fucking asshole, and I say that as a notre dame. He looks like one, he is, he is. He's not a nice guy, he's not a good person.
Speaker 1:He looks like one that's like Sterling Sharp man. Those guys like that man.
Speaker 2:They just, I've heard stories about Sterling because, okay, so when I sold life insurance, my upline your upline is kind of like they don't like to call it your boss, but it's the person who you report to and takes a percentage of your earnings, so that makes them your boss. My upline lived in one of the more affluent communities in Columbia and actually used to golf at the same course that Sterling used to. Sterling's like a big golfer and shit talker that's why I met him.
Speaker 1:I met him in Columbia yeah, he lives in Columbia he won't leave.
Speaker 2:He won't leave. He loves the cost of living. He's a big, big fish in a very small pond. Yep Talks a lot of shit on the golf course. Yeah, I believe it, but people don't understand this too. While Jerry Rice was in his prime, sterling Sharp's the only person that could say they were a better wide receiver. He was like that. Sharp's the only person that could say they were a better wide receiver. He was like that. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame Absolutely, and he was better than.
Speaker 2:Shannon. Shannon would be the first person to tell you that he was better than his brother, and his brother is one of the five greatest tight ends ever, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:And that's why Shannon talked about him a lot when it comes to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, had he stayed healthy, the conversation would be Jerry Rice, randy Moss, terrell Owens, sterling Sharp, marvin Harris, like he's, he was one of those. Yeah, he's one of those guys. He's not a Hall of Fame wide receiver, he's one of the Hall of Fame wide receivers.
Speaker 1:He's not just a guy. He wasn't just a guy. No, he's not just a guy. He was one of those. Ronald Tree had the Italian Ronald Tree on lock.
Speaker 2:Brett Favre has about 50 more interceptions to his name without Sterling Sharp. Big facts, big facts.
Speaker 1:Big facts yes, sir, yes, sir so where are we at?
Speaker 2:Where?
Speaker 1:are we sliding to next? I want to take you to your boy, cole, because Cole got this guest verse on the grippy joint. On the grippy joint, and I want to get your thoughts on it, man, because I don't know, man, this is that Kurt.
Speaker 1:Cobain joint that he's featured on Cash Cobain. Cash Cobain, I'm sorry, cash. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, so I'm a little. I'm not not surprised. I told you this before. I think this is what we're starting to see from Cole. I think we're at that part where Cole is trying to figure out exactly what he's going to do before this album comes out. I think that we might be in for a treat on the opposite side of that with Cole over the next couple months leading to this album, bro.
Speaker 2:Whoever's handling the project. None of this shit like this needs to be on there. I mean, it's like I was telling you behind the scenes. It is the worst verse I've heard from him in the last four years, without question, like period as far as the 2020s are concerned. This is the worst that I've heard him sound.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think people are immediately going to go to the legendary what's now considered a legendary battle between Drake and Kendrick. It's funny how stuff becomes legendary so fast now between Drake and Kendrick. It's funny how stuff becomes legendary so fast now the legendary battle between the two of them. But I'm going to be honest with you and I think people look at me as somebody who doesn't like Kendrick, which is not true. He's proven himself to be the man in this generation, but he's also proven me right in the sense where I'm like well, your competition is not tough enough, because I'm looking at how these guys are performing under pressure and I'm not loving it.
Speaker 2:I'm not liking how Drake reacted to this pressure. I'm not liking how Cole is reacting to the pressure musically, even though he bowed out, like if you're going to bow out, and this is the next thing that we hear from you after the bow out, it's like somebody around him should have been like no, like you got to give us some of that flame, like we need some. You know what I'm saying. We need, we need, we need a Johnny P's caddy verse. We need a first person shooter level verse from you. We don't need this. No, we don't need this from you at this time.
Speaker 1:Not this, no, no, not this. We don't need this from you at this time. Not this, no, no, not this.
Speaker 2:We could have given this a hall pass and kind of slid it through the cracks about a year ago. But now that all this happened and it's like no dude scrutiny and pressure is on. It's like game time. You bowed out of the battle. It's time for an album from you that is probably going to be a litmus test of your career as a whole. You know what I mean. This is the tester plate. You know what I'm saying. This is the one that's like yo, he still got that dope Right. Or you know what I mean. I told you like a lot of his legacy is like. His legacy for me was the one that stood the most to gain and stood the one to take the biggest hit, and I said that from the beginning.
Speaker 2:It's taking the biggest hit, Sean. It's taking the biggest hit and this is another hit and, quite frankly, he needs a hit, as in a hit record, a hit boy and a hit album. Like you need a hit boy to produce it, I like that. You need a hit boy and a hit album. You need a hit boy to produce it. You need a hit. You need a hit boy. Shout out to Hit and Big Hit and Al the album drops tomorrow, we'll probably be back here we got to talk about that.
Speaker 1:I heard it already. Cool, we'll talk tomorrow.
Speaker 2:We'll talk tomorrow. Yeah, we'll talk tomorrow about it. But I'm not joking when I say he needs a hit, a hit boy and a hit album. And this album just doesn't need to be a great album. There needs to be some hit records on this album. He needs a hit boy, hit records on this album. He needs a hit boy. Maybe, even if it's not hit boy, he needs somebody that's going to guide his project the way hit boy guided Nas' projects. People got to stop acting like. Drake and Kendrick and Cole are like 26 years old. These niggas are in their late 30s.
Speaker 1:They're knocking on 40 real soon.
Speaker 2:They're in their late 30s. Yes, y'all aren't young anymore. No, no, you need some direction, no, right. But what you mostly need is for this album to hit hip hop consumers and listeners where we got it. You want to know what? I don't mind him stepping out of this battle. If he's going to make an album like this, yeah, and anything less is not going to do. This verse is definitely not about to do. It's not about this, ain't it? And Rhapsody just dropped, arguably album of the year. I know a lot of people have been going back to Richmond Hill by Master Ace, which hasn't been getting enough pub, and telling me that that's better than Rhapsody's album. I think on some. How about this? I mean not to be funny. If you're from New York and you love that classic Trapped in the 90s sound and I'm saying Trapped in the 90s in a good way when it comes to Master Ace, absolutely Of course, it's your album of the year. It's just hip-hop's bigger than that. Now I'll try to look at it through a wider lens.
Speaker 1:Today's sound is totally different. Now, yeah, I love the sound of the album.
Speaker 2:I love Richmond Hill. When we do our mid-season review, it's probably going to crack my top five. Indeed, it's going to crack my top five as of right now. Yeah, I don't even know if you're the best rapper in our home state right now. I don't know. I would have to give that to Rhapsody and Sean. I said this on my former show. I've always said Rhapsody is more indicative of the North Carolina hip hop climate than any MC we have, and that includes Cole. I can see that and she's proving that right now. I can see that Because we are very much New York South Like. I know people from Virginia think it's them, but Virginia is kind of like New Orleans in the sense that it's like they kind of do their own thing.
Speaker 1:They do. They have pockets in Virginia. Yeah, they have pockets in Virginia Because you still have, like traces of that New Jack swing in Virginia. Right, it's really there. So you have a lot of pockets in Virginia depending on where you go.
Speaker 2:If you're talking about the Clips and Re-Up gang, I did feel like in the early 2000s and in the mid-2000s that Re-Up gang as a whole did better East Coast music than most East Coast artists outside of 50. That was also, and correct me if of 50. But that was also and correct me if I'm wrong that was a lower point for New York hip-hop music. Yeah, I mean it was 50 and Dipset I mean I love Dipset, but I think Re-Up Gang makes better music than Dipset Maybe not the traction in terms of cultural relevance and influence.
Speaker 2:But if we're just going song for song, album for album, bar for bar, reup Gang was better than Dipset. So I'm out of 50.
Speaker 1:Right, the Dipset movement was bigger than the music in my opinion, because the movement you got to compartmentalize both entities. The movement was stronger than the actual musical output because they had one double album, diplomatic Community. Diplomatic Community, yeah, it was a wave, it was a vibe at that time. But then you had Diplomatic Community Part 2. That came out a couple of years later and that was a dud, that was bad. Yeah, it wasn't good, it wasn't good.
Speaker 2:It wasn't good at all.
Speaker 1:It was horrible. I mean really Cam's hours were good.
Speaker 2:Come Home With Me and Purple Haze were good.
Speaker 1:Come Home With Me was good. Purple Haze was good. I think Purple Haze was better than Come Home With Me, in my opinion. I agree, I agree, totally Purple Haze. He was in his bag. I think Come Home With Me it was like okay, this is Cam's back, because we thought we was going to get the original version of Sports, drugs and Entertainment. Yeah.
Speaker 2:SDN.
Speaker 1:The other portion came out of it. It wasn't that great. Then he took a couple years off and came back with Come Home With Me.
Speaker 2:Get Em Girls and Killer Cam were probably two of my five favorite Cam run records. Get Em Girls is probably my favorite Cam record. Actually he went crazy. I get on Extra Gron. What did he say? I get on Extra Gron. Puckipsy to Pepperdine. Jeff Hamilton, genesis, leathertime bitch. You say I'm the man. I tell him, never mind. Yeah, that was Killer Cam slang at his peak. Jeff Hamilton, genesis, leather Time Bitches say I'm the man. I tell them never mind. Yeah, that was killer Cam slang at its peak.
Speaker 1:We're going to have to talk about Cam one day, man, because Cam reinvented himself like three times and people don't talk Cam's skin. We went from when Cam you know Confessions of a Fire right and he was ghostwriting for Junior Mafia at that time too, I'd say people forget that Cam was under Big's wing.
Speaker 2:First he was, he was under Big's wing. Yeah, and Cam was somebody that early on that was capable of going back and forth with a prime DMX on a record, pull it, absolutely, absolutely. He was also capable of stepping on a record and holding his own with a prime big pun and kissing Styles on Band From TV.
Speaker 1:On an.
Speaker 2:MC level, not on like Cam started killing people with style during the diplomat runs. Lyrically speaking, he could hold his own with those guys. X pun Styles, kiss. That's some of the best he's rapping for Biggie while Biggie's making life after death.
Speaker 1:Right, he's ghostwriting for Kim at that time. He's ghostwriting for C's at that time. He has a lot going on.
Speaker 2:He wrote for Charlie.
Speaker 1:Baltimore, charlie Baltimore.
Speaker 2:He was the one that was Remember. Un had Ununitas Entertainment. The main artists were Charlie and Cam. That was.
Speaker 1:Big's doing, that was Big and Un's doing.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:They were the first two by the cannon.
Speaker 2:He was Un's flagship artist before Mase became Puff's flagship artist. When Big died he was on his way. I never thought for me. When I heard the early Children of the Corn stuff, I always thought it was first of all. I always thought L was better than Cam and Mace. I still feel that way.
Speaker 1:It wasn't close at that time. I still feel that way today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I did think that Cam was third on the totem pole because I thought the murder mace version of mace was better than killer cam's version of killer cam mace man, 96, 97.
Speaker 1:Mace was different, bro, I'm not gonna you know when that harlem world dropped again, people forget about those things, man. That that Harlem World album was ridiculous Did like four mil, don't forget that. Look, don't forget, mase was going toe-to-toe with Jay at that time.
Speaker 2:Did like four mil. Yeah, Imaginary Players is about Mase. That might be my favorite Jay record. That's one of those records. See, this is the tough thing about a diss record is that? Well, is Imaginary Players a diss record? Because if it is, it's up high.
Speaker 1:Right Like high. It's up there. It's up there.
Speaker 2:Like. I think Imaginary Players is better than Long Kiss Goodnight. If we're calling those diss records, imaginary Players is better than Long Kiss Goodnight.
Speaker 1:I don't know bro, I better than Long Kiss Goodnight? I don't know bro, I don't know man, long Kiss Goodnight just checked the boxes for everything for me, bro, even the beat. Yeah, that's RZA on the beat.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, that's RZA, that's RZA. Here's what I will say On Life After Death. I don't know if I've heard producers from other camps ever give somebody from outside of their camp the heat that he got on that album he got Last. Days Out of Havoc. He got Long Kiss. Good Night out of RZA RZA yeah, primo Picking the Door.
Speaker 1:Ten Crack Commandments, ten Crack Commandments. He was getting all the door. Ten Crack Commandments, ten Crack Commandments. He was getting all the heat. You know, it's funny because I think it was Ray and Ghost, or one of the two. I think it was Ghost who stated that he was upset that RZA gave up that beat too big.
Speaker 2:I would be mad too. Imagine listening to the beats on Iron man and hearing him give that beat later that year or early in 97. It's like where was that beat when I was doing Iron man? Because the problem with Iron man was the beats that were on Liquid Swords and the Purple Tape, which are some of the best beats ever he was in between.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was right after that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but Long Kiss Goodnight sounds more Purple Tape Liquid Swords like Liquid Swords.
Speaker 1:yeah, because you had Liquid Swords, then you had Only Built for Cuban Links. And then you had Iron man and then in 97, you had Wu-Tang, for you had Peak RZA at this time and he gave big Long Kiss Goodnight during Peak.
Speaker 2:RZA. I think that might have been to help squash some things too. You know he had to be.
Speaker 1:Capadonna was actually supposed to be on that hook for Long Kiss who Capadonna was supposed to be the one. He was the reference track for Puffy. Remember Puffy was in the back talking crazy.
Speaker 2:I can kind of see that. No, no, no, but even when I hear the now time for you to die.
Speaker 1:I can see Kappa singing that better kid I can see.
Speaker 2:Kappa singing that. Totally, I can see Kappa doing all that.
Speaker 1:Kappa was supposed to do all of that and he was actually supposed to do all the shit talking. They ordered talking that Puffy was doing that was supposed to be Kappa doing all of that. Yeah, puffy didn't want Kappa on it. He of course he wanted himself to be on it, but that was part of that, yeah. But I don't know how that was played out because you think about having Kappa on that album at a time when Ray and Ghost and Big had issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but also, too, meth didn't have issues with Big, that's what I'm saying. That might have been the beat. Might have been the olive branch that we never got to see. Have been the beat. Might have been the olive branch that we never got to see. We might have seen some biggie like. Imagine if we would have gotten, like Biggie and Ray and Meth on a track together. I think that was where we might have been headed with that, because I can remember I think the source covered it like they asked Ray. You know, I don't know how Ray and Ghost were one of the first people to get a copy of Life After Death and Ray said he was like man, he was like son, was because Koop in real time, there was a two-year gap between Cuban Link and Life After Death where there were some issues between that time.
Speaker 1:So Big was really addressing everybody in a two to three-year span. Everybody that had an issue or said anything about him or to him or whatever issues that were going on. He addressed it in 97. He never addressed it beforehand. There was no mixtape, but there were no, no other tracks, no lucys or anything like that that came out beforehand. Junior mafia joint yeah, you know, you know get money a little bit here and there, uh, with pop, but it was nothing that. Or even with jay and him and jay did brooklyn's finest, but he didn't address a lot of people until life after death and that's a two-year span. He didn't really get into anything else.
Speaker 2:He just took some Tupac shots, the Brooklyn Finals. If they have twins, you probably have.
Speaker 1:Tupac, he kept it real light, real light jabs here, and there Guns are mostly problems, but my wife don't discuss them. It's light stuff. It wasn't like he was going full throttle on anybody at that time. He was just throwing some loose ends here and there until he actually got to his own album.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because kicking the door is a shot to everybody, everybody. He literally starts off. This goes out to you and you and you and you. Yeah, those are when the shots start getting fired the first time.
Speaker 1:your ring looks like it was short like leprechauns.
Speaker 2:That's the Nod shot. That's the Nod shot. That's the Nod shot. It starts off with a shot at Nod.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because remember it was written on promo there's one life, one love, so they can only do one king. That was the promo in New York. That was the promo at Times Square.
Speaker 2:I've always told people that Niggas Bleed is the response to the setup on. It Was Written. It's the same storyline, it's just Big's like oh, you can write the crime story like that. I can write it like this this is how my story's going to end. You know what I'm saying? Big story ends on a comedic note. Nas' shit ends on a serious note. That's reflective of the personalities of the MCs, but the songwriting level and the style and the actual Think about it. Both final scenes take place in a hotel.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's responding to everything and everybody, not just personally but lyrically. 96 Nas is like no, no, no, I'm responding to 96 Nas on some beef shit and on the storytelling shit. It's like oh, you're telling me stories, I can tell these stories too. I can tell stories too, right.
Speaker 1:It's the response I miss. Tell these stories too. I can tell stories too. It's the response I miss those days bro.
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful time. I was about to say it was a wonderful time.
Speaker 1:It's a wonderful, wonderful time.
Speaker 2:We used to sit back just like this and talk about this shit for hours. It would take up our whole night. I can remember being in the dorms at A&T First of all, I didn't go to A&T. Being in the dorms at A&T First of all, I didn't go to A&T. I can remember being in the hallways at the dorms of A&T and I'd be arguing with niggas outside. They dorm for hours. Niggas, be like Coop. You don't even live here. Get the fuck out, nigga. Take your ass back to the other side of greensboro.
Speaker 1:Nigga, fuck you I know that feeling. I used to argue with brooklyn.
Speaker 2:So much the brooklyn awards for the crazy times I'm gonna tell you, like some, some new york niggas that was going to t like we really almost got into an altercation one time. It was some brooklyn niggas, but I told them that lyrically I thought jay was better than big. Like I've been saying this since like a long time, I've always said I think big is better at jay than everything else, like literally everything else. I think big is better than jay. I was like, but no, I'm gonna give the lyrics to jay. Like on a lyricism level I don't't know bro.
Speaker 1:I told you. I couldn't agree with y'all on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, aj asked me about that too. So here's my thing when I say that when Jay says stuff thinking back when we first learned to use rubbers he didn't learn, so in return I'm kidnapping his baby mother I don't know if Big has that in him or when he does stuff like Time to Separate the Pros from the Cons, the Platinum from the Bronze, the Ballast Off shit from that Leather on the Fonz. When he does shit like that, I'm like no, that's A1. I get it bro.
Speaker 1:I get it when he raps like that lyrically, I get it.
Speaker 2:When he raps like that. Lyrically, I only feel like when he raps like that, the only guys that I feel like lyrically are better than him is like Prime Black Thought, prime Nas, prime Rakim Insane when he raps like that to me. When he raps like that, he's a top five lyricist all time to me. I don't know if I've ever looked as big as a top five lyricist all time maybe top 10, not top five.
Speaker 1:Blasphemer when he says stuff like make your mouth peace or peace like that Reese. When I release you lose teeth like little C's Nigga, please. Blood flood your dungarees and that's just a half of my warpath. The transition is just a half of my warpath.
Speaker 2:Hold on as far as transitions from bar to bar. Nobody's ever been better than big at the transition and the wordplay on the transition as you're switching the speed. Nobody's ever been better at that. See but that's what I mean. To me, that's more flow, delivery cadence. That's not necessarily the lyrical aspect. The lyrical component is playing a part, of course. It's just I don't know if it's the same thing. What's that shit where he's like if I shoot you, I'm brainless but if you shoot me, you're famous.
Speaker 2:What's a nigga to do when he says stuff like that?
Speaker 1:I'm like yo, let's go. I've always said this Conversational Jay is the highest level of Jay. Conversational Jay. Hold deep, Des. You don't have to go through that Conversational Jay. When he talks to you, it's over.
Speaker 2:When he talks to you, it's over. When he talks to you, he's a top three MC who ever lived.
Speaker 1:Easy, no debate. Easy, easy, no debate. I understand what you're saying there. When you're saying the lyrics, where it just connects, it lands better because you don't have to put a lot of thought into it. When you listen to Prime, yeah, when you listen to prime big, you listen to a prime nas. You have to rewind a couple times that's fair.
Speaker 2:The rewindability factor is more there with nas and big than with jay. You have to understand what he's saying.
Speaker 1:You understand what he's got, even when nas is being simplistic in 96 when he says fake thugs, no love. You get the slug. Cb4 gusto your luck low. I didn't know till I was drunk, though you had to go back and talk to me. It's deeper, it's deeper. They make a mad cash as clay. What are you talking about right now? No, no, no.
Speaker 2:That's deeper See, but you're talking about the guy that is lyrically the best guy in that year, in that moment, absolutely. But this is what I'm saying jay jay is the. Jay is the supreme lyricist that everybody understands. That's why everybody loves him so much, like I can't lie like the ending. The ending to the evils might be the best bar to end a rap song ever when he says even if je witness bet he'll never testify.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he makes it simple enough for you to follow. That is frightening.
Speaker 2:That is frighteningly good it is. It's frightening that he thought I told Jules and Spit Hyman more cherry like Hyman. When I'm rhyming, with Remarkable Timing, caviar and silk dreams, my voice is linen, spitting venom up in the minds of young women Mink thoughts. When he's rapping like that, it's like, oh my God, it's like nobody's. That was the thing about it. You know what he is. He's the first person to be super like. It's like oh my god, it's like nobody's. That, that was the thing about it. You went on. You know what he is. He's the first person to be super lyrically inclined and make talking about that type of lifestyle digestible because it's like cool g rap wasn't digestible like that no, no, no, no, no, it was too intricate man it was, yeah, yeah and a little too.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm too. You know what I'm saying, Like you know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think he had a hip hop quotable back in 90, was it 98, 99 with murder music. Yeah, the realest, the realest yeah.
Speaker 2:I could listen to that several times. Like what in the world did he just say yeah, when the gats reveal you cats get peeled and that's the deal. Fucking bitch-ass, black-ass niggas who like the real.
Speaker 1:Bullets ain't racial kid, they only hate you, my nana seem like it's a time machine.
Speaker 2:Be seen they chew. Stop it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Talking different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's Corona.
Speaker 1:Queens in the house he talking real, real greasy on the realist.
Speaker 2:But no. G-rap is like that, though, that's what I'm saying. Jay took what G-Rap did and he put a coat of wax on it and made it shiny. I like that. I like that, Kool.
Speaker 1:Every now and then you bring one of them zingers out, you bring one of them coupe zingers out.
Speaker 2:You right, yeah yeah, you like that.
Speaker 1:I don't agree with you on the Jay thing, but you're right. I can see the fact that you have a great point, AJ you see this, I'm not conceited, I'm just saying he has a great point, he's articulating himself very well right now.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I know we went on a little tangent, but it's like, yeah, the cold verse sucks and he needs to step his game up and make the album of his life, absolutely, absolutely, yeah At the end of the day. Because I mean, because here's the thing, them being down Kendrick is up so big that it makes it seem like he's a top 10 MC all time. Because when you have the best MC from an era which most people already consider Kendrick to be and has now been validated with this victory and with Cole's bow out and now this whack verse, well, when your tops form an era, you typically make the top 10, don't you? You have to. That's how people feel. That's why I understand how people feel about Kendrick. I'm like, no, I can just name you 10 guys.
Speaker 1:Better, right, but I get what you're saying, and that's the trick point, because now this album is more important to his career than anything else Before that and after this. This is the one, because this comes exactly off the heels of him bowing out of a battle that we had him placed in because he deserved that.
Speaker 2:He earned that spot to that point now, on the other side of that, if dot actually makes an album, I don't think good kid Mad City is realistic, because although I don't think that's a top 20 rap album, it's probably top 25. Yes, so I'm not expecting a top 25 rap album, yeah. But if he can make something in the realm of a damn word to pimp a butterfly, yeah. Oh no, I'm probably going to have to objectively slide him into the top 10.
Speaker 1:Because it's a conversation that needs to be discussed. Yeah, it's a discussion.
Speaker 2:Right, right, because my whole thing about sliding him in the top 10 was like no, no, no, give me one more project that's like that Indeed. Because here's the thing about it and people don't really talk about this much Section 80 is a really good project, but it's not holding up very well. People aren't running back and listening to Section 80 like that.
Speaker 1:Cool. People hate to have that conversation about what age? Well, and what doesn't. People hate to have that conversation, but it's a real thing, it's a reality. It's a reality. We still talk about Illmatic and it Was Written and Ready to Die and Life After Death.
Speaker 2:We just talked about JD Reasonable Doubt verses. I'm still playing. It Was Written. And Reasonable Doubt.
Speaker 1:Yes, it came out when I was 15. As you should, we still talk about Q-Berlin. We celebrate these albums on their anniversary for a reason they held up. They held up.
Speaker 2:Ready to Die held up. It held up, ready to die. Held up, it has to hold. What you have is something that goes great in your catalog. If it doesn't hold up, no, it's great for your catalog because I can remember what it was when it came out and how we all felt. I remember that summer I was in Cali I couldn't go anywhere without hearing Section 80 because it had just came out.
Speaker 1:And it was everywhere.
Speaker 2:No, no, no.
Speaker 1:I remember that movement.
Speaker 2:I remember that feeling. Are you playing it today? The answer is no, and that's always been my thing about Kendra's catalog. Is it a great catalog? Yes, how many of you niggas is running around playing to Pimp a Butterfly? And Section 80, though? You're not. That's why I always said Good Kid Mad City was the best album, because it's like oh no, I'm still playing Money Trees, I'm still playing Backseat Freestyle, I'm still playing Bitch, don't Kill my Vibe, I'm still playing Real, I'm still playing Compton.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know what I'm saying. I like that Because if you look at that like the Greeks called it, the Kairos moment, everything, like Martin Luther King's speech, was a Kairos moment. It was a moment that we can remember because we go back in the visionist history. You can say, wow, that was a time when everything just stopped around it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Then you get the Kronos moment when everything is still starting to matriculate. Everything is still in order. Everything is still in order. I think you have a sprinkle of that in all of these apples that we talk about all the time, when you think about the moment that Illmatic or In a Reasonable Doubt and Life After Death, it was a moment. Everything stopped when those apples came out.
Speaker 2:But here's the thing the moment still stops, though. This is what I mean. So let's go to what our bar seminar is. Yes, ag chose the second verse from Feel of Damn, which I think is the best verse on Damn and it might be the best verse of his career, and it might be the best song on Damn verse of his career and it might be the best song on damn. No, I still play feel, I still play element. I don't. I still play love, but I don't play that album the way I play. It was written a reasonable doubt, or the purple tape, or liquid swords, or into the wu-tang or the low end theory. There's a difference from making a great album that has songs that stand the test of time, that carry on than making an album that stands the test of time and carries on.
Speaker 2:There is a difference. And so when I look at his catalog, I'm like no, you made one album like that. So when people are talking about you or like like you, like you made four, I'm not hating, I'm providing some real, objective commentary to the situation. That's why I always ask niggas, oh, it's like that, what record are you playing? Because I'm going to tell you what happens to me. Sometimes I just want to hear the shiznit off a doggy style, ok, but you know what happens when I end up playing the shiznit it makes me go damn, let me go ahead and just start from the top and play this whole thing. Sometimes I want to hear Ice Water off the purple tape, which is how the second side starts, and I'd be like you want to know it. No, no, no, no, no. Sometimes I want to hear Take it In Blood, but I end up going run it back.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I want to hear Politics as Usual, but it makes me go run it back. Sometimes I want to hear politics as usual, but it makes me go run it back Everyday. Struggle on Ready to Die, but no, run it back. Because the album is like that. When I listen to my favorite song on there, that's like that, it reminds me and jogs my memory. It's like yo, this whole album like that, it's just my favorite song. Run it back.
Speaker 1:Because it sticks to your ribs. It's different. It's different, it's different.
Speaker 2:He made one album like that. There are other great MCs that have only made one album like that and have a great catalog. You know what I'm saying. This is why I would still put somebody like Ghost slightly ahead of Kendrick. Ghost got two albums that stick like that. Absolutely Iron man and Supreme stick like that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Iron man and Supreme stick like that. Look, Iron man was special when it came out. It still is to this day.
Speaker 2:Iron Maiden's one of my favorite Wu-Tang joints period. I love Iron Maiden.
Speaker 1:I love the bone. I love Marvel Black man, watch out, she's saltwater trout. Come on, man, I mean.
Speaker 2:Faster Blade, assassination Day. Fish Boxing, hand we eat fish, fish.
Speaker 1:You master, woo, you master. Winter Wars is on there. Motherless Child is on there. Don't get me started, don't get me started.
Speaker 2:After the smoke is clear, like Daytona 500. That's what I'm saying Like when the smoke is clear, daytona 500. That's what I'm saying. When an album is classic, it's like no, iron Maiden is my joint. I think that's actually one of the best start-offs to a Wu-Tang album too. When I play Iron Maiden, I'm like oh yeah, there's about eight or nine other classic songs on this level on this album.
Speaker 1:It's back-to-back. There's no stopping it. The it's back to back, it's back to back.
Speaker 2:There's no stopping it. The only problem with Iron, you know, the biggest problem with Iron man is that it came out after Liquid Swords and the Purple Tape.
Speaker 1:That's the only thing, that's the only thing. But and if you think about the theme of it, iron man also I think Iron man came out like in the summer of 96. It did like it was August.
Speaker 2:August 96? I feel August because I heard Daytona 500 right when school was ending, which was like May, late May, early June.
Speaker 1:I know it's somewhere in 96, but then you have something like Cuban Link and then you have Liquid Swords. It felt like it was a cold time when it came out. It's just the soundscape that RZA was playing with during that time in a two to three year span was ridiculous.
Speaker 2:What I mean. Purple Tape is literally, I think, august of 95. Liquid Swords is like first week of November in 95. And then you get Iron man right after that and think about the carryover coup.
Speaker 1:Everything was a carryover because Liquid Swords was still carrying over into 96.
Speaker 2:People forget this and I think Return to the 36 Chambers is like March or April of 95 and Takao is December of 94.
Speaker 1:You have to understand.
Speaker 2:In a literal two-year span they made three all-time classic albums a really dope album and a borderline classic album consecutively. It is the best moment in hip-hop history for a crew.
Speaker 1:And they had their own unique sound. Every single album had its own unique sound to it, its own chamber, if you will, and everything carried over. Method man album was still carrying over into 95 as we were ramping up for Cuban Link and for Liquid Swords, and both of those are carrying over into 96. Iron man carried over into 97. So these are.
Speaker 2:Iron man is so good that it got us to Wu-Tang forever. It got us to Wu-Tang Forever. It got us to Wu-Tang Forever. But cool. Iron man got us to.
Speaker 1:Wu-Tang, forever, human Lake and Liquid Source got us to Iron man. We were still playing.
Speaker 2:Damn right, I was still playing both of those albums when I heard Daytona 500 for the first time. Yeah, Both of them Like regularly. Like I think I was already both of them like regularly. Like I think I was already on copy number two of my Purple Tape CD when Iron man came out. It had been a year. I'd already fucked up the first CD. I was back at the record store in July. Right like those are moments yes, mega moments.
Speaker 1:yes, those aren't regular albums, those aren't regular Like. Those are moments.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, mega moments, mega moments yes, those aren't. Those aren't regular albums. Those aren't regular moments Like no, not at all. And we're having this ghost talk, and this is what I'm saying. We're talking about Iron man. Supreme clientele might be his best album, sean.
Speaker 2:It gotta be it's yeah, listen to how we're talking about Iron man. Yeah, like Ghost. Ghost for most New Yorkers. Ghost is in y'all's top five, absolutely. He's my personal top two. He's my personal top two. It's not Ghost to me personally, absolutely. Like he said on the champ back east, I'm an MC King. He is Since Cuban Link, pretty Tone, iron Bullet, proof and Supreme.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely he is but to the rest of us, oh, he's top 10 and it's because of Iron man and Supreme, supreme. You can't look at me. You cannot tell me with a straight face that Kendrick has two albums better than Iron man and Supreme. You cannot do that.
Speaker 1:I don't think.
Speaker 2:Good Kid. Mad City is better than either one of those projects personally. But if you want to say it's better than Iron man, I'll let you have it, but it's not better than Supreme.
Speaker 1:No, and I might be just being biased, but I don't see it.
Speaker 2:So when I'm talking about him not being in the top 10, it's like you understand. He has to hurdle somebody like Ghost.
Speaker 1:He has to leapfrog Ghost. In my opinion, he has to leapfrog Ghost.
Speaker 2:Ghost. That ain't no easy feat. Think about this. We're talking about Ghost's two classic albums, oh, and the fact that he is the co-starter of a top three rap album all time album. All time. Don't get it twisted. Yeah, and it's on another one of the top 10 rap albums of all time. And enter the Wu-Tang. Yes, I don't think people understand.
Speaker 2:And he's the best MC on Wu-Tang forever yes, best storyteller. You're telling me that I'm supposed to put him ahead of him. Show me the music Fuck how you think I feel of him. Show me the music Fuck how you think I feel about it. Show me the music where you're going to realistically tell me that his shit is better than Ghost.
Speaker 1:Again, that's my opinion. You can't.
Speaker 2:You can't realistically do that?
Speaker 1:You can't. It's tough. It's too tough. Your arms are too short to box with God. Dick facts, dick facts, big facts.
Speaker 2:It's too tough, and so he needs another project. In my opinion, better than Dan. Better than to Pimple Butterfly yeah, like, not as good as Good Kid Mad City, but better than Dan than to Pimple Butterfly. I'm not putting you ahead of Ghostface Killer. Ghostface Killer is the co-star of the Purple Tape. He's the author of Iron man, supreme Clientele, bulletproof Wallets and Fish Scale. He's on Enter the Wu-Tang 36 Chambers. He's the first person you hear on Enter the Wu-Tang 36 Chambers. He's the best rapper on Wu-Tang Forever, which is one of the best lyrical pieces ever created, and he's the best lyricist on there. And you want me to just slide this guy ahead of him? With what evidence? He's the best member of the best rap crew who ever lived.
Speaker 1:More consistent than all of them.
Speaker 2:What are we talking about? And you want me to just slide Fam into the top 10? No, it don't work like that. You want me to slide him ahead of the top 10? No, it don't work like that. You want me to slide him ahead of scarface, who literally has never made a bad album in a 25 year rap career.
Speaker 1:That's a phenomenal segue, because this is what we were talking about. This is our segment that we are going through. We're going through the greatest rappers versus greatest albums and by the time that people hear this, this would be whatever episode we decide to make it, as far as whatever order we decide to make it, because right now we're killing, we're not on our bullshit right now and I know people want to ask that question because I know how you feel about scar face and we have to keep it funky, even with emem, so how you yes, so how you feel about Ghost is how I feel about Face.
Speaker 2:Like and that's probably some regional shit. You know what I'm saying. Like Ghost is your number two. We have the same number one, yep, but as far as like my guy, it's like oh no, if we're talking personally, it goes to Scarface and Tupac after Nas.
Speaker 1:What would you consider to be Face's top three albums?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's easy. The Diary and the Fixer is two best albums.
Speaker 1:Mr.
Speaker 2:Scarface's back is probably third.
Speaker 1:You guys said Mr Scarface, mr.
Speaker 2:Scarface's back His first solo project. His first solo project is one of the hardest rap albums ever. How about this? Mr Scarface's back is the South's version of it's Dark and Hell is Hot. I've heard it before. I've heard it before. It's the one with A Minute to Pray and Second to Die, the actual song, mr Mr Scarface like that one. Yeah, he's got the Untouchable which is up there. That would probably be fourth on my list. But I mean, where Face really takes the cake is the late half of the catalog, the shit like Emeritus Made Deeply Rooted. This dude is literally 20 years in making four-star, four-and-a-half-star albums and he's rapped with everybody. Think about it. No, like whoever your favorite MC is from your favorite coast, they fuck with Face and have done records with Face, because Face is like that. Who are the best two MC's to come out of New York? It's Jay and Nas, yeah, who he done, did work with. Is he not on I Am? Yeah, is he not on the Dynasty album?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was the first one.
Speaker 2:Who'd you rap?
Speaker 1:Who'd you rap?
Speaker 2:Fucked with Face. Nas fucked with Face, jay fucked with Face, snoop and Pac fucked with Face. Too short. Everybody down here fucked with Face. That's a rite of passage. That's a rite of passage. That's a rite of passage, wayne ti, you name it like. Name them, name them. They fuck with face. Ask them who their favorite. Go ask your favorite rapper who their favorite rapper is. They're gonna tell you scarface, my favorite rapper. Ask mop, yeah, face. Ask jay face. Ask nas face. Ask pock. When he was here face. Ask MOP yeah, face. Ask Jay Face. Ask Nas Face. Ask Pac. When he was here Face. Mm-hmm, he's working.
Speaker 2:Bun B literally said when he heard the diary by Scarface, he knew he could only come in second place in his own home state. That's Bun B talking up in this motherfucker. Mm-hmm. Bun B literally said out of his mouth. I knew the best that I was going to do was second place after I heard the diary. Do you know how revered this man is by his contemporaries? He is, probably he is. He is revered in a manner that no Southern MC has ever been revered outside of and inside of his region.
Speaker 1:No doubt.
Speaker 2:No doubt. When people tell me Andre is the best MC to ever come out the South.
Speaker 2:The first thing that I always tell them, as soon as he makes the diary and the fix and Mr Scarface is back and the Untouchables and does a record like smile with tupac and does a mac and brad with beanie seagull and does a favor for a favor with naz and does, if this can't be life with jay, and I guess who's back with jay as soon as he does those things. Yeah, because you're talking about talent. I'm talking about who actually the fucking man is down here. He is the fucking man down here.
Speaker 1:No doubt he's real. I mean, no one has any issues with face. Never I don't think we've ever had anybody had any issues with face in any part of rap In any part.
Speaker 2:He's been certified from day one. He is the author. The main writer has in three of the four verses on one of the ten best rap songs ever. He wrote my Mind Playing Tricks On you, except for Willie D's part. He wrote Bushwick Bill's part in his two verses. That is essentially his fucking record, with a Willie D guest appearance. Is my Mind Playing Tricks On Me as a top ten rap song for you? Right? I would assume so, or is it?
Speaker 1:close. I think, bro, it's top five. For me it might be top five, I'll be honest. It might be top five.
Speaker 2:It's top five for me, and so it's like who else got a catalog like this? Who else got a guest appearance sheet like this? Who else is revered like this parent sheet like this? Who else is revered like this, like nasa's trajectory of classic albums is greater, but from beginning to end, nobody has a scarface catalog, because scarface doesn't have a lull in this catalog. There's not an untitled or nostradamus or nasir or lost tapes to floating around scarface's catalog. Do you understand what I'm saying? Talking crazy?
Speaker 1:cool. You might be right, though, talking a little nasty right now, yeah there's no Magna Carta Holy Grail in Scarface's catalog. The fuck are we doing? Or Kingdom Come?
Speaker 2:Right, and so you want me to put Kendrick ahead of face, like has it goat or scar? How about hell? No, how about hell, no, no. How about talk to me when he's 10 albums in the way scar face was 10 albums in still making great music. Talk to me about him being top 10 when he's 10 albums in the way faces 10 albums in. Face was 10 albums in, and most of Face's albums are solo missions. Sean, yeah, my Homies is the only album. The double album my Homies is the only album he ever made that really had heavy guest appearances.
Speaker 1:Yes, Do you think because Face is so humble that it stops him from people having those conversations like we're having right now? Because if you ask Face who's in his top five, what he always says Nas, Nas, Nas, Nas Nas. He's always said that he's so humble that he doesn't even want to be in that conversation as being one of the GOATs or in the top five or anything, or top three. He doesn't want that?
Speaker 2:Because Face is a thinker and Nas says shit and face is probably one of those guys. Only top guy, him and ghost. It's funny, we're talking about the two guys that are willing to admit it, both star face and ghost face think naz is the greatest mc of all time. What more do you need to hear? But you want to know why? Because they know the level that they operate on, they know what their catalog looks like and they know that man says shit that they're not capable of saying what the fuck does that say about that guy? Absolutely, absolutely. They know, like Face literally will tell you, like you bitches ain't fucking with me Like Face, tell everybody else you niggas ain't fucking with me Like y'all not
Speaker 2:rapping with me. Y'all not making better albums than me. You niggas don't make better songs than me. Better songs than me, you niggas ain't real. In the streets as I am, y'all can't walk around your fucking neighborhood. The way I can walk around fucking Houston by myself and pull up you dudes is none of that. But about Nas he's stopping Paul's. Ghost probably got the best catalog in New York outside of Nas and Jay. But about Nas he's stopping Paul's. He was just on Stephen A Smith's podcast talking about every time I see Nas, I call him the golden child.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, since inception they said it about Nas being the golden child. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2:But look at who's saying that. Look at their catalogs. Those are top five catalogs. Ghostface and Scarface, to me, are holders of top five hip-hop catalogs. I can't put Patrick ahead of them. I can't do thatrick ahead of them.
Speaker 1:I can't do that. Look, man Kings on the Kings. It makes perfect sense For me personally. I can't put Kendrick over that. I can't have him leapfrog. I'm just trying to understand. I know people are going to be tearing this up and I'm all for it. I'm just trying to understand why it's not universally known. Are we trying to erase what someone like a face has done Just because we want to prop him up more than anything else? And it's not hate. I'm asking that question for real.
Speaker 2:Some of it is education and information, sean. So I'll tell you what this is going to seem funny. This is about to be a major sidebar.
Speaker 2:Did your mom watch Oprah Like 80s Oprah, like 80s, early 90s Oprah? Did your mom watch Oprah Like when Oprah was actually on syndicated television Before she took over the world? Did your mom watch oprah a little bit? Yes, one day my mom was actually off work and she she didn't used to catch oprah, so when she'd actually had get get off, she would sit down and watch oprah. Oprah used to come on like 4 30. My mom used to not get home to like seven o'clock, eight o'clock.
Speaker 2:If I was lucky, I ended up watching the episode with her one time, but they were talking about the Holocaust, sean, and they were talking about how one out of every three to four Americans didn't know that the Holocaust had happened. This is like 1990. It's like 40 years removed, right, right. So let's take that piece of information about how America operates and understand that a class of people had genocide inflicted upon them to the tune of six million people and one third of America wasn't even aware that it had happened when it literally it just happened 40 years ago. Okay, how old is Illmatic in the diary by scarface? How old is iron man? It's 30. It's going like those albums are 30 years old this year. I mean the diary is going to celebrate its 30th anniversary this december. Iron man into the wool tank is already celebrating this 30th anniversary.
Speaker 2:What's happening is is that when you don't educate and inform people properly, that's true history gets lost period.
Speaker 2:It's not just rap, it's history period. That's why it's important that we have these conversations and remind people. It's like oh no, you're not about to wipe enter the wu-tang only built for cuban links. Iron man and supreme from my memory. You're not about to wipe mr scar faces back, the diary and the fix from my memory. You don't get to wipe it from my memory. You're not about to wipe Mr Scarface's back, the diary and the fix from my memory. You don't get to wipe it from my memory just because it's your fucking turn. That's what we're not doing.
Speaker 2:You know I've had people try to argue with me online that Good Kid Mad City is better than Paid in Full. It's like, first of all I didn't know you guys were still in dealing with the crack cocaine era, like Eric B and Rock M were in 87 when it came out. That's when crack cocaine was a big thing. But apparently it's still a big thing because you actually think that these albums are comparable when Paid in Full has arguably four or five of the biggest 100 rap songs ever and Good kid mad city may have won yo bro, that's crazy I thought cracking cocaine.
Speaker 2:I thought cracking cocaine ravaged us in the 80s. What you're telling me is that in 2012 in compton it's still going on because people have rationalized their mind and tried to make it seem like paid in full and good kid. Mad city are comparable albums and, respectfully, it's like what the hell are you smoking? Mad City are comparable albums and, respectfully, it's like what the hell are you smoking? Because it's not marijuana, it's got to be crack cocaine. Methamphetamine, I told you, niggas, is on this 1985 Angel Dust shit. They're doing LSD again and hallucinating. Are you putting?
Speaker 1:mushrooms in your marijuana and rolling it up, are you?
Speaker 2:chopping up the mushrooms and smoking. I used to do that, you get high and you hallucinate for days. When you do that, what are you doing? Those albums are not comparable.
Speaker 2:The air is president, just the legend of that one song it's bigger than everything. On good kid mad city yeah, my melody, the actual record paid in full. I know you got soul. I ain't no joke, we having a conversation I'm having conversation with these punk ass kids who need to get off my lawn about talent, trying to tell me the good kid Mad City's better than paid in full. I'm like niggas is high.
Speaker 1:So cool we got to cut that and put you on the solo joint. Get off my lawn. That feeds into our theme here over the next couple of days greatest rappers versus greatest albums. Because now what you're talking about is we need to occupy a space where they occupy their own space. Because when you're talking about Rakim and what he's done for hip-hop and how he transitioned everything, who has the master list out of the two? And just being totally unbiased, who has the greater impact in hip-hop? Who pushed hip-hop forward the most? Who had the longest tail, if you will, or balls?
Speaker 2:Okay. So people need to understand this about Rakim, and this is a culture thing. If we're talking about hip-hop culture, nobody on an MC level as far as an MC is concerned, has pushed the culture forward the way Rock M has. Because I've always said this, it's like, you know, when you watch the scale of how man evolved, rock M is like three versions of the man morphed into one. It's like, oh no, that's when you know how like it shows how man used to crawl and then he had a hunch and then he stood up and then he walked and then he ran. No, rakim is like all of that in the one. It's like no, he came through the door, he said it before and he stood up and he walked and he ran all in one fell swoop. Generationally, he pushed the craft of emceeing ahead three generations with one swift stroke of his pen, which was paid in full. He's when man stands up. He's when the emcee stands up, walks and runs all at once. I don't think people understand that, right, right.
Speaker 1:Because he predates a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now.
Speaker 2:LL Cool J had to change the entire way that he rapped. Run BMC Curtis Blow. All those guys became oblivious. Everybody, everybody.
Speaker 1:Everybody.
Speaker 2:He literally ended the first half of the rapping era of the 80s. He ended 1980 to 85 with a couple of records. With a couple of records he ended everybody's career Because he got up, walked and ran all at once. You know what I'm saying. It was like before we was crawling, we was hunched. It's like no, this nigga stood up and ran and the only person before that was even close to that was KRS, and the albums are so close and Rakim's just that far ahead of the curve.
Speaker 2:And so this was the conversation that I was having about the 18th letter that people need to understand. By the time he had taken five years off and came back in its 1997, 10 years removed from his first albums, the only people that had proven themselves to be lyrically on par with them on a consistent basis was Nas in an emerging Jay-Z in a 10 year gap. Do you know how serious that is? Because the lyricist that Biggie was on Life After Death, he was not on Ready to Die, so Big's not even there yet. Big is not on a rock and rhyming level on on ready to die no, not at that time.
Speaker 1:No, no, he was raw. Pause, he was raw two and only one.
Speaker 2:It's actually one in a possible, because the 18th letter in volume one came out on the same day. Yeah, so we didn't even know that jay was rhyming at that level consistently until that day. So you're telling me, in a 10-year stretch only one guy came along that proved to be able to rhyme on the same level consistently as this guy. It literally took the rest of the rap game 15 years to catch up to this guy. Don't tell me that that's not more influential than any MC. It took the game 15 years. It took a few MCs 10 years.
Speaker 2:But it took the game 15 years to catch up to Rock M.
Speaker 1:I like you to go with that. When is it taking?
Speaker 2:15 years to catch up with anybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like you to go with that.
Speaker 2:Let the rhythm hit them is still a top three mic performance, all time by a solo MC. That shit came out in 1990. Lyrically speaking, the only thing comparable to let the rhythm hit them lyrically from beginning to end by one artist is probably it was written, and life after death a reasonable doubt, depending on how you feel no doubt.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think you're going with that, you're right, you're right. Even with that, he changed, like you said, reasonable doubt. That's when jay changed his entire flow and style, because he was on that, um, the fushnikin style of rapping during that time too, because it was that rat-a-tat flow that everybody was doing during that time. You know in what, the late 80s, mid-80s to going into the early 90s, it was that Fushnikin style, that tongue-twisting stuff, and you're right, bro. So let me ask you this, let me ask you this, let me ask you this, because now we're talking about Ra and his influence what does his tree look like? Who are branches of his tree in comparison to K-Dot?
Speaker 2:The tree that Kendrick Lamar sits on is Rakim's tree. He's sitting on his tree. That's what I'm trying to get people to understand is that all of you guys post-1991 that call yourself lyricists, you all sit on that tree. You do understand that, right. Big and Jay are anomalies because you all sit on that tree. You do understand that, right, like Big and Jay are anomalies because Jay is more Kane and G-Rap and Big is more Kane and Ice Cube. The rest of you guys that are high-level lyricists are really off Rakim's tree because none of you guys are socially conscious like KRS-One or Chuck D. That's what you're saying. So all of you dudes like Eminem has a lyricist is on Rakim's tree too. It's just he's off of Redman's tree too. It's a blend of trees, it's like cross pollinization. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:But no rapper has been cross.
Speaker 2:No rapper has more trees, has more branches on his tree than Rakim or has cross-pollinized more. It's like oh no, nas, that's Cool G rapping Rakim. It's like Eminem no, that's Rakim and Redman. You get what I'm saying. Kendrick Lamar it's like no, that's Rakim and Andre 3000. You, no, that's Rock M and Andre 3000. You get what I'm saying? Like all these dudes who claim Black Thought straight off the Rock M tree, he'll tell you he's straight off the Rock M tree.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all these guys, the Supreme Lyricists, all off that tree because that's when we stood up and walked and ran.
Speaker 1:So All of them With that, because we got Rock here. Hold all of them With that because we got Rod here.
Speaker 2:Hold on, hold on. The entire Wu-Tang Clan will tell you that. Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Ray, ghost and GZA in particular. Yeah, and Deck, deck and GZA are Rock.
Speaker 1:M yeah, master Killer yeah.
Speaker 2:Master Killer, yeah, rock him, yeah, hold on, rock him. New album coming out. Guess who's on the first single with him. Master Killer, yeah, off the tree, off the tree, yeah, yeah, he's got the largest tree, just like kind of like you know how they do like the coaching trees in football, mm-hmm, how they do like the coaching trees and football. It's like no, he's Bill Walsh and Bill Parcells put together in terms of how large the tree is. It's like no, no, no, I got everybody. Yeah, I got everybody, no doubt. Yeah, I got everybody. Like Nas and Ghost are your one and two. Rock him, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no doubt.
Speaker 2:Nobody has it like that. Nobody in rap has it like that.
Speaker 1:No, not at all.
Speaker 2:Not at all. Nobody, Because nobody did what he did. Nobody was 15 years ahead of the fucking curve. That's true. It's like pulling up in a Model T Ford in 1895. It's like oh hold on. It's like hold on, when the fuck you get that from we riding horses around this bitch. You got here in how many minutes. You got here in 20 minutes. I've been on this horse for two hours. You got here in 20 minutes. Somebody robbed this nigga.
Speaker 1:No, you're right, You're right. I'm thinking it through because, again, I'm trying to defend the other side of that. But I can't, because, now that you're saying that, when I think about where we're going with all of this entire series, we've got Face, we've got Rob, we've got Jay, we've got Nas. We have Eminem as well, who's dropping another single tomorrow for his new album. Does he lean on Eminem at this point? Because I'm another single tomorrow for his new album? Does he leak on Eminem at this point Because I'm not a huge Eminem fan? I can appreciate Em's catalog. I can appreciate Em's contributions to hip-hop. I can appreciate Em's pen. Now that you're saying all of these things, I don't know if I can put him over him. I'm struggling with it. I'm going to be honest with you Objectively more conversational.
Speaker 2:I think we as black men enjoy Kendrick's music more. Because we're black men, we can objectively say well, yeah, kendrick has a better catalog than him but does he M's first?
Speaker 2:three? That's what I'm trying to say, because how about this? The replay value of M's first three? That's what I'm trying to say, because how about this? The replay value of Em's first three albums is higher than the replay value of Kendrick's first three albums. Kendrick's first three albums might be slightly better. First of all, let's take Section 80. Are we counting it or are we discounting it?
Speaker 1:I don't know, because it's a studio. Is it considered a studio album?
Speaker 2:If it's a studio album, as much as I like Section 80, marshall Mathers LP is better it is.
Speaker 1:It's more complete, it is.
Speaker 2:Marshall Mathers LP Good Kid Mad City. I'm giving it a nod to Good Kid Mad City. Yeah, now listen to what I'm giving it a nod to. Good Kid Mad City yeah, now listen to what I'm about to say.
Speaker 2:The Eminem show is not as important as To Pimp a Butterfly, right? But there are more songs that have stood the test of time, yes, that have replay value, that are more indicative to the high-level artistry that that man is. Then you see, on To Pimp a Butterfly. To Pimp a Butterfly is what I like to call a stylistic classic. It's like no, no, no, you liked what he was putting down and you enjoyed the way that he put it down. But Em got some shit on the Eminem show and it might be his best album, and so it's not as far fetched as people think for it to be a conversation.
Speaker 2:Here's what else I'll tell you. Do you think Kendrick is lyrically better than him? I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't have Eminem in my top 10, but I'm supposed to put Kendrick in my top 10 and I can't say with total clear conscience that he's better than Eminem. Like not with a clear conscience another album that's somewhere between Good Kid Mad City and To Pimp a Butterfly in terms of the level that he performs. That's what I mean about him leapfrogging into that 10. It's like, oh no, now I can put you over in Eminem, I can put you over a red man. Does he have four albums better than Red's first four albums? Are his first four albums better than Red's first four albums? Because I don't think any of these projects is better than Muddy.
Speaker 1:Waters. You're going into dangerous territory right now. You're going into a weird space right now.
Speaker 2:Like what the album's better than Section 80?
Speaker 1:That album's that's a dope album. There's a Dark Side is better than Section 80.
Speaker 2:That's a dope album. There's a Dark Side is better than Damn. I think Muddy Waters is better than Good Kid Mad City, or it's comparable, or it's a wash. And he's got Docs to Name to back him up. I know y'all love him, you sure? He's better than Redman, are you sure?
Speaker 1:I think sonically.
Speaker 2:He needs another album to prove it. That's all I've been saying for the last seven years. Give me one more album so that we can have a real conversation, because then I can be like okay, now that he's Leapfrog the Jada Kiss, the Black Thought, the Redman, the Eminem, frog, the Jada Kiss, the Black Thought, the Red man, the Eminem, now we're in literally Supreme clientele. Now it's like, okay, ice Cube, scarface, ghostface, big Pop, jay Nas, how you Stacked Ben, not now when you make that next album. That's like that, because here's the reality of the matter.
Speaker 2:None of these albums are Illmatic it was Written Stillmatic or Lost Tapes. None of these albums are the Blueprint, the Black Album or Reasonable Doubt that he's made. None of these albums are Ready to Die or Life After Death. None of these albums are Me Against the World, all Eyes on Me, or Machiavelli. None of these albums are America's Most Wanted or Death Certificate. Like, you get what I'm saying. None of these albums are Supreme Clientele or Iron man Close Conversational. But you know how much other material these guys have to back it up on top of their all-time classics. Do you know how many classic guest appearances they have? Then you got to start getting into it. It's like you want to have a Ghost and Kendrick conversation. It's like show me his impossible verse. He doesn't have one, doesn't have one. Show me his fourth chamber verse. Let's just go to Wu-Tang guest appearances. Ghost God, show me why is sky blue?
Speaker 1:Why is water wet? Why did?
Speaker 2:Judas grab the Romans. Why Jesus slept? Stand up.
Speaker 1:You're out of luck like two dogs stuck.
Speaker 2:Iron man be sipping rum out of Stanley Cups, unflammable when.
Speaker 1:Where's his?
Speaker 2:Glaciers of Ice verse to close out a classic rap song like that Criminology, criminology. Yo, that's ghosts we're talking about. It's like. No, you don't just get to leapfrog our legends because you new niggas say so. No, that's ghosts we're talking about. It's like. No, you don't just get to leapfrog our legends because you new niggas say so. No, that is not how this game works. Krs-one is he better than KRS-One? Krs-one?
Speaker 1:got it he's better. Let AG tell it he's better. Look here.
Speaker 2:This is what I mean about. People got to be careful about what they say. Where is he better? Is he better lyrically than KRS? No, no. Is he better live than KRS? No. Does he have more classic songs than KRS? No what is his number one song?
Speaker 1:in your opinion, what is like the bitch, don't kill my vibe is his best song in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Bitch don't kill my vibe are real okay or um, how much a dollar cost? How much a dollar cost and bitch don't kill my vibe are my two favorite Kendrick song but, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Like is that better than South Bronx? The bridge is over, my 9mm goes bang. Love's gonna get you Jack of spades. Sound of the police. Um, I'm a blunt. Get like I can keep going. Step into a world. Uh, mcs act like they don't know. Rappers are in danger. Like where is he better than chris? He does he have more classic albums than chris? Where is he beating KRS-One? You get what I'm saying. Like KRS-One is somebody that's kind of slid to the back of our top 10. It's like show me where he got Chris. He don't have him on stage. He don't have him lyrically, he don't have him on the songs. He don't have me on the albums. Where does he have KRS-One? Like where?
Speaker 1:But, cooper, that's only because, like where, that's only because, like you said earlier, because we so far removed from the time, as we move away from the time, people forget. People forget how pivotal KRS-One was during that time, during the 80s, the 90s era, even into the early 90s era. He was important to hip hop. You can't, you take him out of hip-hop. There's a big gap there. You know pause. There's like a huge missing piece there. It gave birth to a lot of different. That's why I always ask about the tree, I always ask about the influence tree. Who did KRS influence? Who did Rod Kim influence? Who did Kendrick influence?
Speaker 2:That tree is important. I mean, if we want to talk about social commentary, kendrick, how about this? Kendrick, lyrically and content-wise, is more Rakim and KRS-One with Andre 3000 style, because he has some of KRS-One's social commentary sensibilities with Rakim's lyricism but with Andre's style. He's a nice hybrid, don't get me wrong, he's a phenomenal hybrid, even coming from the West Coast.
Speaker 1:that makes it to me, makes it that much more, even on a higher tier, because he's not influenced. That influence is different on the West Coast as opposed to the East Coast People understand this.
Speaker 2:Tupac is off the Chuck D, krs-one and Ice Cube part of things. He's actually one of the few guys that came after Rock M that's not off the Rock M tree. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely, and even he quoted Rock M. Yeah, saying Absolutely. And even he quoted Rakim. Bear witness to the dopest fucking rhyme I wrote, taking off my coat, clearing my throat. I got my mind made. Come on, like even Pac quotes Rakim. Come on, right, right, don't do this. That's why I be telling cats it's like stop calling me a hater and know your history first. They're going to hate you on this one.
Speaker 2:No, you need to know your history. Don't talk to me about Kendrick being better than KRS-One. So you can name KRS-One's first four Boogie Down production albums in order, so that I know that you actually know what the fuck you're talking about. You can't Right. So since you can't, don't dance with me, your steps ain't right yet. The quote Jada Kiss on checkmate don't want to dance with me? Your steps ain't right yet, no doubt. So it's not me hating, I'm just informational.
Speaker 2:I'm not moving on to it, I'm aware of it, right, I'm aware of it, that's all. I'm aware of it, that's all, because we live through it.
Speaker 1:We're not looking at old footage. We live through that.
Speaker 2:Kendrick's better than a lot of guys. Kendrick's better than Mos Def, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, you'd have to put him ahead of a Lupe. You'd have to put him ahead of a Lupe and Mos Def. You get what I'm saying. Yeah, you'd have to put him ahead of a Lupe and most deaf. You get what I'm saying. Like he jumps a lot of great guys, you'd have to put them ahead of Kane and G rap just off the catalog.
Speaker 1:The catalog you got to put them ahead of in my opinion ahead of black thought as well, because of the catalog you have to he's. He's ahead of a lot of grades. That doesn't make that other tier.
Speaker 2:As much as I know that Black Thoughts is superior MC to Kendrick, it's like, well, black Thought got cheat codes and all the root stuff and that's not enough to leap somebody like a Kendrick at this stage. But how about this? That's more conversational. To me, though, sean, it's like Kendrick better than Black Thought. That's more conversational. But Black Thought is, lyrically, in everybody's top five, but not in everybody's top ten overall. No, but it's because.
Speaker 1:It's because of the catalog. It's the catalog, and he was part of a group. All those things matter. All those things matter.
Speaker 2:Like Ghost got the group work and the solo classic Scarface got. We Can't Be Stopped with the Ghetto Boys. That's a classic.
Speaker 1:That's true, that's true. Again, that pyramid as you go up that pyramid, it gets a little bit more lean. Right, and it's okay.
Speaker 2:It's okay, everybody knows how I feel. And if they don't, I mean don't confuse me taking Drake in this battle with the fact that Pusha T has been my best rapper since post-Godson, pre-king's Disease, magic Run. My favorite guy in that gap was Pusha T. Is he ahead of Pusha T? Yes, he is? Yes, he is. So it's like, don't tell me I'm not being objective when I'm putting him actually ahead of my favorite guy of the last 15 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you said it, you said it many times, when I'm putting him actually ahead of my favorite guy of the last 15 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you said it, you said it many times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's true. No matter how much I like somebody, people think that my personal biases take over with this. It's like no fam. I just listen to the music. When I hear rock and rap on Let the Rhythm Hit Him, I'm like hell. No, kendrick can't rap like that. Rap on let the rhythm hit him. I'm like hell. No, kendrick can't rap like that because he hasn't done it yet.
Speaker 1:No, no, not from beginning to end no, not, not like that, not like that like, like, how about this?
Speaker 2:people need to understand this. If you don't understand what I'm saying when I'm talking about, let the rhythm hit him, since feel, versus the bar seminar, the way kendrick is rapping on, feel that one record. Rakim has a whole album where he's rapping that way. Excuse me, excuse me, the whole album is that way, absolutely. I literally go listen to that album sometimes and I still find stuff that I didn't catch before. Like damn, I don't believe he said that.
Speaker 1:Like oh my God, this guy is nice, even his lightest songs like Mahogany he's taking it there.
Speaker 2:First of all, Mahogany is better than everything on Kendrick's last two albums Everything.
Speaker 1:Mahogany is light work. He's just coasting, he's relaxing.
Speaker 2:That is the slight work. That's also the song that New York State of Mind by Nas came from. That's your slight work.
Speaker 1:That's also the song that New York State of Mind by Nas came from.
Speaker 2:That's your slight work, hold on. His slight work inspired what might be Nas' greatest song, absolutely. You know who? Not better than that guy? No, not that guy. Respectfully, respectfully, I think you know of the guys that we've mentioned.
Speaker 1:Face M Raw.
Speaker 2:It's hard to put him up ahead of those guys how about this, the next album being what it needs to be? We'll put him ahead of him.
Speaker 1:But check it, m got an album coming out too, so what if this album and it may come up around the same timeframe?
Speaker 2:So down here in Atlanta, when you go to the King Center, there's a quote that's on the wall from Coretta scott king that says I'm just going to paraphrase it you have to fight for freedom in every generation. Yeah, the same thing applies to legacies. Yes, with this rap shit and with all things, it's like, oh no, you have to fight in every generation. So you have to understand there are people that are ahead of him or right there with them that are still fighting. Rakim is dropping an album in July. He's dropping an album. These are people who are ahead of him that are still defining their legacies. Yes, and that is why I bring up the five year break, because it's like, oh no, rakim took five years off. You know who he was when he took five years off.
Speaker 2:He was Michael Jordan. When he took those two years off, the very fucking best. When he left, yes, you were never the very best fucking best. When you left, you were still supposed to be defining your legacy. Michael Jordan couldn't afford to leave. I got three MVPs, I got three rings, I got a defensive player of the year. I got seven scoring titles, I got a steals title. I done beat Magic. I done beat Barkley. I keep beating Ewan.
Speaker 2:I got Malone up out of here.
Speaker 1:I got all these guys up out of here.
Speaker 2:I can go. You can go when you got it like that Right, not when you're still supposed to be defining your legacy. People forget that when Michael Jordan was playing Clyde Drexler during halftime, they were having discussions in 1992 whether Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time, like on live television. Yes, yes, is Michael Jordan the greatest basketball player we've ever seen?
Speaker 1:And let's not get it twisted. If you want to talk about the competition level, they were talking about Clyde Drexler being somebody special. Don't forget. Clyde Drexler was on the Dream Team for a reason.
Speaker 2:Clyde Drexler's the top 10 shooting guard all the time. He was on the dream team.
Speaker 1:For a reason Matter of fact, mike Miller got second tier, third tier.
Speaker 2:He got second tier because of that finals loss. Then it was like I mean, kobe and Wade hadn't showed up yet, but it's like if you were picking shooting guards, it would go, mike Kobe and Wade hadn't showed up yet, but it's like if you were picking like shooting guards, it would go Mike, kobe, wade, jerry West, and then you could talk about Clyde with some guys. So he's like fifth at best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Easy, yeah, easy.
Speaker 1:But Mike did that to him because people thought it was like yeah, mike was like the playing field was different, the pool was different and that's what Kendrick up against. Right now the pool is starting to shake up a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like. How about this? Like not all, not all rings are the same.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying Kendrick's championship rings, and it's like you know and this is nothing against him, because he might be the most dominant player ever Look at who Shaq played to get his rings at the center position. Yeah, oh, you better average 38 and 15, and that's exactly what he did. Don't give niggas credit for doing what they're supposed to do. You're supposed to average 38 and 15, and that's exactly what he did. Don't give niggas credit for doing what they're supposed to do.
Speaker 1:You're supposed to average 38 and 15.
Speaker 2:Right, you're supposed to average 38 and 15. Look at the climate Right, you're supposed to be Right, because here's also the reality of the matter. When it comes to Shaq, it's like, oh no, akeem got that ass. Yes, tim Duncan, tim Duncan Got that ass. Competition yeah, he did Paul, yeah, like no, no, no, when you lost, you lost to equal competition Absolutely. And that's what I keep saying about Kendrick. It's like, oh no, y'all looking at him, oh, look at those numbers, he got 38 and 15. It's like Talk to me, absolutely, that's all I'm saying. Talk to me when he plays Tim Duggan, talk to me when he plays somebody top 10 like him.
Speaker 1:Because, coop, what you're saying right now is no different than the year 94 to 96. Big Nas, pac Jay, it's different.
Speaker 2:It's different Prodigy. Prodigy Redman.
Speaker 1:Method man Young's different Prodigy Redman. Method man Young.
Speaker 2:Andre 3000 that we thought was on Ice Cube is still around. Yes, scarface is still active.
Speaker 1:Snoop's the fucking man. Snoop's, the fucking man. Snoop was still the man, regardless how you want to look at it. Right, the plane, the hip hop was active. That's different. It's like.
Speaker 2:This is what I'm saying, regardless how you want to look at it. Right, that's different. It's different, Like it's like. This is what I'm saying. It's like Nas's verse on the Truth, where he's like doggy style. Cd turned that murder was the case up, Thinking when my first shit drop I'm going to leave a face scrunch. He's comparing his shit to doggy style. Yeah, Like he's making Illmatic listening to doggy style.
Speaker 1:That's competition. And what did Big say? He was like Snoop oops. You know that's competition.
Speaker 2:He said heavy hitters. Interscope telling Tupac to wait because Ice Cube is the man is competition. Yes, tupac album got put on hold about Ice Cube running the fucking rap game. Yes, yes, interscope told him you can't release that album. Ice Cube's the man. We actually want your album to sell, so we're putting it on pause.
Speaker 2:That's competition it's competition, it's competition when has he even had enough competition that people have been like pause or what? Where? Where is? Where is the doggy style to his west coast? Illmatic, that is good, kid mad city. Where is the group that made it into the wu-tang? I can't where. Where are they? Who are they? Where is the purple tape at? You get what I'm saying. Where is a Southern artist making something comparable to Scarface's the Diary in this era? Where?
Speaker 1:Because, coop, he came at a time when everything was died down. Again, that's not to say anything ill about him, because before him, who we was talking about? We were talking about Wayne. We were saying is Wayne a top five hitter alive? It's like this.
Speaker 2:It's like this. I don't think he's ahead of Wayne, just so we're clear.
Speaker 1:That's an adult conversation. I don't think he's ahead of Wayne.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm not even the biggest Wayne fan, but Wayne deserves his flowers and his respect. Wayne's been rapping just as long as Nas and J have. People don't understand that.
Speaker 1:He was just much younger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he's just not 50. He's closer to our age.
Speaker 1:bracket Matter of fact, he is our age, I think 98, 99, when Wayne started really ramping up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but this is what I'm. How about this? Let's look at it like this Boston Celtics are back in the NBA Finals. I got to slide in a second. Boston Celtics are back in the NBA Finals, sean. They got what? 18 titles? 17? 17. 17 titles.
Speaker 2:You know, nobody talks about those two titles that the Celtics won in the 70s. They talk about Bill Russell's Celtics. They talk about Larry Bird's Celtics. Do you want to know why the competition they face? Because Bill Russell had to beat Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor.
Speaker 2:People forget when Bill Russell is winning these rings. Him, wilt Chamberlain, elgin Baylor and Jerry West are the greatest players who would ever live. Right, he was beating the other greatest players that had ever lived to win his rings. Right, he was beating Wilt in the Eastern Conference Finals, who most people considered to be the best player him and Wilt. And then he was beating the guy that was considered to be second best player him and wilt. And then he was beating the guy that was considered to be second or third in the finals in jerry west. Every year jerry west is one and nine in the finals. There are there are laker fans that literally do not like bill russell because of what he did psychologically to jerry west. Oh, and oscar robertson oscar robertson would be the other guy in this conversation. Elton Baylor, oscar Robertson, jerry West, bill Russell, will Chamberlain that's your top five players of all time. During that time, bill beat them all except Oscar with regularity, and that's because Oscar's teams weren't good enough to get there Exactly.
Speaker 1:Larry.
Speaker 2:Bird, celtics had to beat Isaiah's Pistons, magic's Lakers, dr J and Moses Malone 76ers. That's why the Celtics fans talk about those teams and don't talk about those 70s teams, because they look at it like who they beat. It was a watered down era because the ABA came into play and siphoned off the players. Those Celtics teams didn't get to play a prime Dr J in the 70s or a George Girvin. They were in the ABA. Those two Celtics titles that Dave Cowens won. They never get talked about. It's not because those teams weren't great, it's because the competition wasn't great enough. It matters it tapered off.
Speaker 1:You came at the right time. It't great enough, it matters. It tapered off, you came at the right time it tapered off.
Speaker 2:It matters, yeah, the competition matters. And so when people look at the Celtics championship rings, it's like, well, they grade Larry Bird as the toughest because Larry Bird had the toughest road. Yeah, and they go to Russell. They don't talk about them. 70s teams they look at it like it's like oh, all you want is two. Larry won us three in the toughest era ever. Yeah, bill beat Wilt Chamberlain with regularity. You know a guy that literally averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds in a season.
Speaker 1:It's like no Bill Russell kept beating that guy.
Speaker 2:People don't understand this. You know how many people have a higher scoring average to this day in NBA history than Jerry West? Like scoring average to this day in NBA history than Jerry West like in history in his 14-year career. Let me name them for you Michael Jordan, wilt Chamberlain, lebron James and Kevin Durant. That man has not played basketball in almost 40 years and there are only two people three people that have come along since that have a higher scoring average than Jerry West. Jerry West is busting people's ass. He is the name of the logo on the NBA. That's who Bill West would be for titles.
Speaker 1:He's a logo. For a reason, he's supposed to have titles under his belt.
Speaker 2:That's different. He has one. He should have like five, right, but Bill Russell, he was a stopper. Competition matters, oh, because all that shit Jerry West was doing going? Oh, because all that shit Jerry West was doing going in the lane against everybody else yeah, not against Bill.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Better stop right there and pop and make all those shots. Bill was not in the lane. He won a finals MVP where he lost. Yeah, that's how cold Jerry West is. Jerry West is the only man to win a finals MVP and lose the only one.
Speaker 1:The only one ever done it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So competition, that's what real comp looks like. It don't matter what area you do it, it matters what the comp looks like. It's like no Akeem's rings. Akeem's two rings are greater than almost everybody else's two rings because Akeem didn't play with another Hall of Fame player and he beat David Robinson, shaq and Patrick Hewitt. Boom, boom, boom, the end. I'm the man. I'm the man in this era. Slide me into number two, right behind Mike. I'm the man, david, you got nothing for me. You need Tim Duncan to win your rings. I don't need a Tim Duncan. You give me Tim Duncan. We're running the table, and that includes on Mike. Probably If you gave Akeem Olajuwon Tim Duncan, mike wouldn't have those rings.
Speaker 2:No no not during that time. Not during that time no, like Tim Duncan came out in 97, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 97. That's when he won.
Speaker 2:That's the difference between Akeem Olajuwon and David Robinson. If Akeem Olajuwon has Tim Duncan in 97, Mike not getting that ring. That's how bad Akeem is. Akeem outplayed Shaq in the NBA Finals when Shaq literally averaged 28 points and 12 rebounds, and he still outplayed him.
Speaker 1:He made Shaq look crazy on a lot of those plays, made him look crazy. He was just a winner at that time.
Speaker 2:He undressed David Robinson the year David Robinson won MVP in the playoffs. He did. He's like that's my award. He took my award from me. That's what he was telling his teammates.
Speaker 1:He took my award from me, that's what confidence is yeah, no doubt, bruh, you got to get up out of here. Man, let's call this one, let's call this one man. Good one man. I mean, we still got more to go. It's almost two hours. We still got more to go.
Speaker 2:I mean we on our trilogy, shit this weekend, you know what I'm saying. We may have a bonus cut after this. You remember Dexter Trilogy Killer? Yeah, that's what we on. We on our Trilogy Killer shit this week, yes, sir.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, Yo shout out to the team, man Shout out to the team. We know AG wanted to be here, but we had to do a one-two punch on this one. We're going to come right back at you, though. This is a trilogy, so just stick with us everybody. We got some more to come. We got a lot more to come. This is the 10th episode, so we got to do it big for the 10th episode. This is a milestone, Big milestone. Yeah, bro, let's call this one bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's what's up you know sunny day in Atlanta, sir.
Speaker 1:Indeed, indeed.
Speaker 2:Yeah.