Designer, illustrator, socialist small business owner (okay, it’s a co-op), and Father of Bud Paul Zappia discusses why it’s good for socialists to know how to do accounting, the privileges and perils of owning a business, and how creatives can use their skills to build the movement.
Paul recently helped design “Unite and Win: The Workplace Organizers Handbook.” Check it out here: https://www.haymarketbooks.org/books/2434-unite-and-win
—
Thanks for listening and supporting left media. If you’re interested in conversations about the intersections of creativity and social change hosted by a socialist organizer, please follow along for this 8 episode “Season One”. I am also so grateful for comments or shares that help us reach more people!
Here’s some links to your favorite websites. I’d love to hear from you.
- Jordan
And Roses Website
Youtube
Instagram
Twitter
Designer, illustrator, socialist small business owner (okay, it’s a co-op), and Father of Bud Paul Zappia discusses why it’s good for socialists to know how to do accounting, the privileges and perils of owning a business, and how creatives can use their skills to build the movement.
Paul recently helped design “Unite and Win: The Workplace Organizers Handbook.” Check it out here: https://www.haymarketbooks.org/books/2434-unite-and-win
—
Thanks for listening and supporting left media. If you’re interested in conversations about the intersections of creativity and social change hosted by a socialist organizer, please follow along for this 8 episode “Season One”. I am also so grateful for comments or shares that help us reach more people!
Here’s some links to your favorite websites. I’d love to hear from you.
- Jordan
And Roses Website
Youtube
Instagram
Twitter
All right. Welcome to and roses. I'm Jordan. And I'm here today with Paul Zappia, who is a designer, illustrator, and partner at down the street designs, a design and illustration studio in Los Angeles. How are you doing today, Paul?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:I'm doing alright. Yeah, doing alright. There's a lot going on in the world. There's a lot going on at work. So you know, just taking it day by day. But I'm doing okay today, thanks for asking. How are you, Jordan?
Track 1:Yeah, I'm doing really, really well too. Yeah, lots, lots of things. How, how do we keep up? How do, how do we balance them? Those are maybe some good ideas to talk about today. But first I did actually decide for starting this interview that I want to go into like the most click baby way possible. Like I already have a YouTube thumbnail in mind and I want to ask you about the fact that you are a socialist. Business owner. How does, how does it work? Tell me about your, tell me about your socialist business. I, we don't need to joke about this. You can give me an actual answer about what it's like to own a business, but you're also a socialist.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yes, I can, I can joke and answer, I think. I, I mean, I'm wearing red, you know, as a socialist we have to wear red, so, you know, you're clearly not a socialist, I can tell by, by looking at your camera.
Track 1:I blew it.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Ha ha ha, you blew it! Yeah, so I, that is true, I am a socialist and a business owner you know, As you mentioned the, the company that I have with a friend of mine that I went to college with is called Down the Street, and we do design, illustration, animation. And, you know, when I started the company, I wasn't, I actually didn't consider myself a socialist at that time. I, throughout college, was moving very rapidly left. I grew up in a very conservative family, but like, I Several experiences, you know, coming out, like meeting, going outside. You know, I moved very rapidly to the left and, you know, coming out, I went through design school at Cal State Long Beach through their design program. And I think mostly what they tried to do, So what we did with that education is just plop you into the workforce um, just get you to work for a design studio. And for myself and the friend of mine that I started the company with, we didn't really want to do that. We kind of thought, well, let's see what we could do by just starting something ourselves. And so what we did was we, right out of college, maybe wasn't the best idea, but we You know, left the jobs that we had at the time and then we just decided that we were going to start a small creative studio, and I think, again, wasn't a socialist yet, I didn't consider myself one at least, but, you know, what we, what we did, you know, when you start a company, first you answer these questions like, oh, how's the company gonna be set up, what's the structure, who are you gonna work with, and for us, I think it was very important that we didn't operate necessarily like a traditional company, so, We don't have employees. It's just you know, the, when I started the company with my friend named Colin, just Colin and I just were like, we're going to have a totally egalitarian setup. It's just going to be two partners. We both know how to design, do illustration, animation. And so we just started a company with the two of us, and it kind of operates, you know, it is like sort of a co op. It's just two folks who, yeah who do all the work and own the company together, have an equal partnership and that, so we don't have any employees. And so I think, like, that, I think my values as a person, I think sort of have roots in, in like, decisions like that, you know,
Track 1:I think it, it is always so interesting when it comes up. You know, many people perceive socialism and socialists as like pure idealists, but there are so many of the, so many of the ideals that are compatible with socialism that just emerged because they're like practical solutions to everyday problems or social problems. Like, yeah, you don't want to get into a weird, you know, power struggle with your friend and partner. So just make the business as a co op.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right.
Track 1:Talk to me a little bit about like, co ops are interesting and I know can be maybe a little like controversial in terms of different people have different ideas about the importance of co ops in building a socialist society, but just in your experience, what had been the benefits of running a business that way and what had been the limitations?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:That's a great question. Yeah. So I think the benefits one certainly simpler on your taxes. When you don't have employees I think, you know, in terms of our company, the benefits have come with one Because we do all the work and the decision making we're a pretty nimble company. We don't really need to worry about you know, dealing with folks who are either in supervising positions or in, positions where we're kind of having to manage folks doing work. It's also allowed us to, I think, Be very or I should say a lot more selective about the kind of work that we're bringing in. Sometimes like, you know, if, if we have a lot of extra like costs that kind of come in we probably would, would not be able to be as selective with the kind of work that we're accepting. I also just like, quite frankly, like I've never felt super great about the relationship between an employer and an employee. Again, even before I considered myself like a socialist, like. Because essentially, you know, I just didn't feel comfortable with like scraping money off the top and having someone else do this work for me. And so I guess the benefit there is like I can sleep at night. That's a nice benefit. But I think in terms of the limitations of it, you know, I think because we've you know, through just having only a couple of folks on the team, it certainly sometimes limits the amount of work that we're able to do at once. You know, it does kind of limit the amount of projects we're able to take on, the amount of output that we have, so there's definitely that limitation. Also because, you know, because we are only two people and we both like doing all the creative work, sometimes we gotta deal with a lot of admin stuff. That are that are not super fun. Having to deal with like, you know, taxes and keeping up your website and all these, you know, sort of administrative tasks that you know, in a lot of other companies, there's like a team of people to do. So yeah, I would say probably those are some of the drawbacks there and advantages.
Track 1:I think it's, it's, this was a conversation that I was looking forward to because I think that a lot of people who are drawn into working class movements are folks that have only known what it's like to be an employee. And a lot of people, lots of people have known what it's like to just work for a shitty boss. And in a lot of cases, like these are the driving factors that, you know, like convince people, like we need to, to change the situation. I, I work and I create value and I deserve a piece of the pie. And so it's. You know, I think just worth wrestling with and reckoning with, you know, there are people who also live in this society who share our values, who you're a socialist but you're, and you're not on the other side of the aisle. I'm not interviewing somebody who's a boss, but I am interviewing somebody who is like owns a registered business and like pays taxes as a business. And yeah, I, I think that I dunno, do you feel like that gives you like a different perspective on anything when you think about like your own politics and You know what what you wish for, you know when you think about the society that you want to build.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:That's a good question. I think because of the, it's really funny when people learn that I'm like a business owner. I, I kind of like go above and beyond to be like, I don't have any employees. I'm not a boss, you know. But I think part of it is that a lot of times when we sort of hear the term business owner, I think a very particular kind of person comes to mind. And I think like me having this job and being able to operate as a business owner, but not necessarily someone who operates in like a traditional business, but one that I would say, you know, we've had a lot of success in the creative world. Like, I think it's really opened up my mind to like what business ownership can be. And it's, you know, I think, There are a lot of times where I've heard folks who believe in maybe a more traditional business model that have said like, Oh, it's just impossible to run a business with your values, right? They'll say things like, Oh, well, you know, like You know, socialism sounds great on paper, but, you know, that kind of sort of egalitarian setup can't really function in, in reality when, you know, our company kind of, it is small, but, but our company does do that every day, like, we do operate in a world where we still live in a very capitalistic society our clients are obviously, you know, like large companies that are beneficiaries of the system, but like, we're able to operate a business, so, I think in that way, it's sort of, you know, Broaden my horizons of like what, you know, being a business owner can mean. And when I'm talking with people, I think sometimes they're actually kind of surprised that I like have a business and, you know, we like do business taxes and we, you know, file with the secretary of state and all those fun things right
Track 1:I there's
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:that like, I want them to put in a class.
Track 1:Yeah, yes. Well, so there's this article that I think like I don't read a lot of like I'm not as well read on socialist theory as, as many, many people I know are, but there is this one piece that I think is just like, so fascinating that was written by Che Guevara, like after the Cuban revolution, when their movement that, you know, they were rebels, fighting to free their people from this dictatorship and they won, they took power and they're actually trying to figure out like, How to, how to run a country. And so it's this article, it's called something, I think it's called like cadre, the cadre is the backbone of revolution. And basically what he's describing for making this call for is like for, their movement to educate and invest in developing more people who just like. know how things work. Who like actually know, what are functions of business and society? Because it's like, historically the people who have access to this role, those roles are, you know, more upper class or they're not necessarily people who are sympathetic to, to this workers movement that Shay was involved with. And I, I feel like, yeah, there's so many Online revolutionaries who are, you know, always chatting about their, big ideas about how we need to, like, stop participating in bourgeois democracy and focus instead on, like, overthrowing the, you know, corrupt American system. Which is a valid goal to have, but it's just the, the idea of what, you know, the change that some people, you know, recognize, or believe is needed, and like, their ability to like, actually implement that are just really miles and miles away.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Oh yeah
Track 1:I think that Yeah, there's there's this sort of like meme that you see going around sometimes Or it's just like what would be your job on the on the communist like? Self sustaining farm or something and it's just everybody wants to say oh, yeah, you know, like I would be the The storyteller.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Right, I would be, I think I saw one that was like, Oh, I would do gardening and in my free time make lattes for my neighbors or something like
Track 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which it's, it's a, it's a beautiful dream, but I, I think, you know, if I, like, I want to have the show, cause I want to have, you know, like real conversations about like intersections of like, how, how do we as artists and creative people actually be involved in bringing about the world that we want. And I think there are some limits to the amounts that simply are pure, like imagination. Can contribute to that. There are, there are, and will be, if we want to talk about actually changing the world, some very practical realities involved, and I feel like understanding how just to do accounting is a very important one.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Oh yeah, 100%. I mean, and I think like, A lot of it too is like, you know I think a lot of times, I think people can assume, Or, or do assume rather, that, you know, if you decide to in any way, shape, or form, partake in the current system that we have now that you're sort of like selling out, or like, Oh, you don't believe in the same things as I do, and I, I, I don't really agree with that at all. I think that like, we can, as like, we can materially say like, this is the reality we're in now, and we all need to get by, we need to survive, like, we need to have an income so that we can pay for rent, and things like that, and there are ways that I think we can, we can like, live our values while also understanding that we are operating in like a particular system, like a very capitalistic system,
Track 1:Yeah. Well, and, and.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:the day to day to get from sort of here to there. Right.
Track 1:mean, speaking of that, we, we were chatting earlier today and you were telling me a little bit about, yeah, we're having this conversation now and it's like, yeah, the, the socialist small business owner and it's awesome to be independent and you can do that without having any employees, but the, the people that are willing to pay for your time and work are not always Companies that you're necessarily, the most proud to be working for.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yeah. Even if you're somebody who can say like myself and my business partner who can say, you know, we have this sort of independence. You know, that, that independence really only goes so far because we need to be doing work that generates us income so we can pay for things you know, that we need to have to get by on a daily basis, healthcare, housing, and so like, yeah, definitely, like I, I would say where tension does come up in sort of my values and then the work I do is that, like you said, we do a lot of times work for clients who are like these big corporate baddies who are not You know, don't have necessarily the best interest of the world in mind. You know, we've done projects for, for Google, for Amazon, for Facebook, you know, all of the, really just the best and, and most morally upright companies that have ever existed. But I think the, you know, where there is some tension around that, like I think at the end of the day as you sort of mentioned, you know, those are the folks, like, when we're, We, I wish that in this world we exist in now, we could get by, by just doing like projects for more independent entities. You know, we've done illustrations for the Emergency Workplace Organized Committee. organizing committee, which is like a, is a organization of organizers around the country who help folks organize their workplaces and form unions, which is incredible. And, you know, we just did a project for them that I'm really stoked about, but those can't be all the projects, unfortunately. In the, in the current world we live in, because, you know, we, We need to be making enough to get by and so yes I think that's the way that I've squared with doing the work that we've done for particular companies. It's just needing to make that income and throughout the pandemic you know, we like, quite frankly, one of the scariest things as someone who like runs your own sort of business. I understand for employees, you know, there are other fears that come along with that. Came along obviously with the pandemic outside of health, but you know, like when the pandemic started, we lost almost all of our work, if not all of it, I think at the beginning of the pandemic. And Amazon was the first company after the pandemic started because they you know, they benefited from folks having to be inside, needing to order things remotely. And so they started asking us for work during the pandemic. And we just, you know, we're like, man, we got to make. You know, we, yeah, we need to do this, like, because we need to make we gotta pay rent, girl gotta eat, you know, so um,
Track 1:I I feel, well, yeah, and it's like, Yeah, I guess you wouldn't judge, you know, a driver for driving for Amazon if that's the job that you can get. It does seem like it could be, like, a slippery slope, though, you know, just that, you know, justification of, like, I'm doing this because it's what pays. Has there ever been a time where you've had to, draw a red line and say, No, I'm, I'm not going to do this, even if it would pay me well?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yes, yes, there have been a few times yeah, and I should say, you know, with, this is one of the cool things about having your own business, is like, it can be very contextual, so like, in that moment where we lost a bunch of work, you know, I, we were making one decision, and, But in a, in a place where we are now, for example, where there's a lot of projects coming in, we're doing a lot of work currently you really can't, you do have the luxury, which I'm very grateful for, of, of turning folks down that don't align in a particular way. You know, we've had clients in the past, just about a month ago, actually the U. S. military like, asked us to do a project with them, and very quickly we were like Thanks, but no, thanks, but no thanks. You know, for reasons I probably don't need to get into, but we were able to say no to that project. We've had like, you know, one time I remember a couple years ago, we had this consultant group for landlords in Orange County come to us because they wanted some like branding and illustration assets. And we were like, nope, nope, no, thank you. Not going to help the landlords. So yes, absolutely. Like. You know, I think, I think we can, we can both say that, you know, in times where, where you, there's an income that you need, like, we understand that you make certain decisions, but also, one of the advantages is, is when I am feeling insecure about that, like, yeah, we can definitely turn stuff down, and we will yeah, and we will turn stuff down if, if they fall into those sort of categories.
Track 1:Yeah. Well, it, yeah, it sounds like, you know, the business is at a great place, and I know that you, you've been able to do work for, like, yeah, you were just mentioning the Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee, and we'll, at the end, I'll, I want to plug the, the, the book that you were working on a little bit more. But you've been able to do stuff for, like, the Postal Service, or, yeah, for, like, LA Metro, and that's cool, that's really cool.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Thank you. Yeah, I mean, so for, yeah, I mean, for the Postal Service, we did a series of stamps for just their stamp series in 2023 and so they came to us in, if you can believe it, they actually came to us in 2020. And they said, hey, we have this idea for stamps. We want to do these illustrations for historic railroad stations around the country. And we saw that the work that you did for Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf we illustrated, if you like, go into a Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf, or even like a Target, and you see coffee bags from Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf, they have these little illustrated labels on them. So we did all those. And you know, they saw that actually the art director just randomly happened upon that work, just, I'm not sure, maybe a coffee bean and tea leaf or a target or something, and she actually figured out who did the work. It was us, and she reached out and she wanted to do stamps, and so, yeah. Doing projects like that are super cool because one, like, we love our you know, postal workers. We love our the True Boys in Blue, you know, and we love, like just those services that are super important for keeping this country going and also are just, like, I mean, really incredible services that we take for granted sometimes, but also that kind of work, like, so many people see it and experience it and get to use it. And I think one of the things I like most about the work that we do, whether it's for Metro, for USPS we've done a lot of stuff for the Lakers, like LeBron James, for you know, even like TikTok. Like this is stuff that people are experiencing in their daily lives very often. And so that's super cool. Especially when you see like news reports about it and stuff.
Track 1:Yeah,
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:so yeah.
Track 1:cool. Yeah. I want to kind of switch it up because you're at this like great place. And I think there may, maybe some people listening who are interested in following a similar career path as you whether or not They're specifically interested in design. I do just think it's it's a really At least for me even yeah enviable position to be in to be able to do what you love To be able to make a living off of that And to work on some really cool projects Tell me just kind of like let's, what's, what's the Paul Zappia story? Born and raised in Pasadena, California. You mentioned a little bit about, you know, pretty conservative family. How is it that you started taking steps towards, you know, when did you first know that you were interested in graphic design and illustration?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yeah, I mean, I have been, I think like many people sort of in my line of work, I have that answer that's like, I've been drawing since I can remember. And I've, I've always really liked illustration. I got into design actually more recently, but with illustration you know, I was the, like, really annoying eldest child who used to ask my mom to draw. Power Rangers over and over again so I could color them in. Thankfully my mom discovered what a copy machine does and made a bunch of copies of that so I could color them in, but
Track 1:Did your, your, your mom was like, though, capable of just freehand drawing Power Rangers?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Oh yeah,
Track 1:I feel like that's not a, you, you said it as though that's like a really relatable thing, like, that everyone is asking their mom to draw Power Rangers, but I feel like having, having a parental figure who can actually already draw, you're already kind of getting a leg up on a lot of folks.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:ha ha Yeah, I mean, maybe something that I've taken for granted that my poor mother, by the way, who had to just sit there and draw these characters over and over again for a demanding child, and I'm one of four, so so yeah, she absolutely, I think, I got a lot of inspiration from her, who, who were able to do, was able to do these things, and, you know, I have other family members as well who are in the creative field which I think was a great start my parents were not as excited when I got to college, and I decided, you know, hey, I wanna think, I think I wanna pursue this as, like, a career, they, you know, We're not super convinced that that was
Track 1:What did they want you to
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:we are. Oh my God. I mean, it was like, my dad's a banker. He was like, Oh, maybe you should do something that business or and then I think my, I don't even remember what my mom wanted me to do. She was just like, don't do art be a doctor. So yeah, I think what I started doing was I've always been really into drawing and illustration. And I actually in, in college, I started with illustration. With the emphasis in animation and then I, they used to make it, it was like hand drawn animation too. It was like with the light board and the paper that you put on top of the light board and you flip back and forth. So it was like old school. And you know, then I, I got a graphic design job on campus at Cal State Long Beach and I just fell in love with this ability to create work that a lot of people not only saw and experienced in their everyday lives, but it was actually like. helping them navigate the world around themselves, solve problems. We were creating, you know, signage for our student union. We were creating you know pamphlets and advertising for our student organizations on campus. And so that was, that to me was super cool, and I love that ability to, to take something that you know, just being able to create something that people can use and is very useful for them. Not just something they can enjoy, but that is actually very, very useful like practically. And so, um, so yeah, I, switched, yeah, go ahead.
Track 1:to interrupt? Just the, it's Little subplot. It's for a lot of folks you because you mentioned yeah, your family was like pretty conservative And I think a lot of people in that situation It is like going to college for the first time is when you kind of start like changing your views a little bit Or becoming more, you know progressive was is that your experience or like what? What were some of the events that also led to you kind of stepping away from from your parents political leanings?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:That's a, yeah, I mean, wow. So, I was, I, I don't know, you may or may not be surprised to hear this, but like, you know, for, for me I identified because my parents are not only, especially my mom, they're not only conservative, but they're, they like talking about politics, they have always been into politics, and so they, they talk about it all the time, I always say to people that like, To my mom, who is a Catholic Jesus Christ is actually not her number one, it's definitely Ronald Reagan. And, you know, so what ended up happening actually before getting to college, I think, my, the slippery slope into leftism was, was, you know, realizing that I was, was gay. You know, at a pretty young age, I realized that I was gay, and like, I very rapidly started seeing how that did not align with the values that my family had, particularly like, being religious conservative folks in, in the U. S. So I think that was really the catalyst for me to start moving very rapidly leftward was kind of coming out, and then, you know with the back in 2008, there was the marriage equality ballot measure that came up, Prop 8, um, and that was the first time I had ever, like, organized, you know, I say organized, I'm using that term very liberally, but, you know, that was the first time that I'd ever, like, come together with folks for a particular, like, electoral cause and I think, like, that was the first time for me I was like, oh, wow, like, the state. It can have, like, this influence over my personhood without me doing anything, like, I, it's not even just about me working hard, like, that actually has very little to do with the discussion at all, and so, that was really my beginning of moving toward the left,
Track 1:Yeah, that bit about, like, you, you might not care about politics, but your boss does, your landlord does, and there's sure as hell, like, a lot of conservatives who do and are very interested in using the political apparatus of this country to ensure that people are subject to their prejudices.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Right. Well, and then a lot of times, you know, conservatives in California, I think they try to do, you know, I think they try to deploy, you know, You know, they do this all over the country, but you know, they, they try to use as well issues you know, against folks who are more marginalized and who make up smaller parts of the population. They try to, like, really make those like the issue of a particular election in a way to distract everybody from, you know, kind of all of the. Like, awful things that they're also doing that impacts sort of everyone and in 2008 that was kind of, the playbook for sure was like, trying to get kid, you know, people scared about the kids, and
Track 1:Yeah, at the time as this was going on and you were getting involved, like, were you out to your parents yet? Did they know?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yeah, oh yeah,
Track 1:Okay.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:I came out when I was 16 still in high school and yeah, it wasn't, it was kind of a crazy experience. I mean, they, they did not take it well. They definitely you know, I was like one of those kids, you know, thank goodness this is not legal anymore in California. But, you know, they sent me to what would be called reparative therapy. You know, sent to a therapist trying to convince me that I was not gay. I was a total brat to the therapist, which, you know, I'm like, Don't feel guilty about and, and was definitely a brat to my mom through that period of time but, you know, even when the Prop 8 thing came up, interestingly, like, my stepdad is actually, like, he's still very conservative, but he was very much on my side at that point, and that actually caused a lot of tension with them, like, I remember my mom wanted to put, like, a yes on Prop 8 sign in our yard, and my stepdad was, like, so upset about that. Even though, yeah, even though he's also conservative, so. So yeah, definitely there was like, there was tension there. Wasn't, wasn't great, and I was out to them at that time, yes. And I think like, since then I've just become like, I think to them, they've gotten used, like, they've come a long way, about, in regards to my sexuality. I joke around sometimes though with my friends, like, at post Bernie in identifying as a democratic socialist, like, I've had to come out to them again as, like, a democratic socialist, and you know, it's funny, it's like, now they're going through the five stages of grief with that revelation so yeah.
Track 1:they're still, they're still in the stages. That was a while ago, Paul.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:I know, yes,
Track 1:processes at their own, at their own speed. Actually, Yeah, I can, my, my parents are also processing many, many, many years later that I'm, I'm no longer you know, at a church going nice young man. That's just how it goes. Yeah, I still go to church all the time. I'm just not nice. So, so, okay, going back to the main story, you're at college, you're, you know, realizing, you're, you're loving, the work that you're able to do to kind of, like, support your friends, do meaningful projects and at that point, had you, you know, declared, had you, you know, form a lot, formulated the, a vision about, like, you know, a future career in illustration?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:You know what? No, I really like, I think I sort of did. I guess the answer would be sort of, I didn't really know what that looked like at all. I, I was sort of, when I was in college, I was still very much like living in that world of just kind of existing on campus. I didn't like dream too far ahead of what that might look like. And, you know, when I got into my when I. I applied to the design program and then got in a lot of the like, a lot of the classes were, which were great by the way. I learned so much, but as you get to sort of later, at least at, you know, at the Cal State Long Beach where I went you know, the, the later you got into your design education the more they sort of talk to you about being a designer, the more, not, not as someone who's doing your own creative work, but as like a worker, right? Like as someone who fits in a creative agency somewhere or like works for someone else. And I think that was the first time where I decided, you know what, and I decided this actually with my friend, Colin, who I started the company with. We just had randomly started doing projects for fun together for classes, like group projects. We were creating little like music videos together. We were like. doing various design projects and we just That had sort of started us really thinking about like, oh, I think we could you know, maybe we just try working together after school So yeah, that's what we ended up doing was we like we just decided that hey, we're gonna See how this goes. We're gonna work together We're called down the street actually because I used to you know, he and I used to live on the same street in long beach and I would just ride my bike down the street to his apartment. That was our first You and yeah, yeah. So that's down the street was the was the name. That's how we came out with that name. And, you know, yeah, I think, really, I would I would encourage folks who are thinking about doing this to have a little bit more of a game plan than we did. Which I'm happy to go into if we get there but, you know we did, we were, we were flying by the seat of our pants a little bit when we first started because there was really not a, a roadmap for us to start the company right after school,
Track 1:I do really want to like go into that because that was a situation that I was in once upon a time yeah, trying to do a kind of creative marketing business, but having, I, I had no contacts. I knew I had some skills, but how would it be? Do, who do I sell them to? Theoretically people can benefit, but yeah, you're starting out. You're not like coming from an agency with a Rolodex. How, how on earth were you able to like start finding your initial clients?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yeah. So when we, when we started the company there were a couple of ways that we sort of, that we started getting projects rolling in. The first one was, you know, when we were in school, there were a couple folks who we had through various connections, we had done like very small projects for like video based projects that we worked with, and we continued to do work with them after school. But that was actually like not that was nowhere near enough work to like sustain us for living. And so I think like the first way that we really started bringing in projects in a sustainable way was we you. really just leaned on our friends that we went to school with. And what I mean by that is that, you know, when you're going through school, and this is why I always encourage people to be nice. Don't, just don't be a dick, like, with people that you're working with whether it's in school, whether it's in work, like even if there's a disagreement, try to bow out gracefully because those folks, you never know when those people, especially in the creative world, right? It's not as big as a, of a world as you might think it is. And so you never know when you may have to work with those people down the line. And for us, you know, we, we were very good friends with all of our cohort of folks and all the folks who were a little bit older and younger than us in our design program. And so when we all got out and we started our company and they went to work at either ad agencies or design studios. We basically, or even in house at various companies that's actually how we landed our Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf project, was one of our friends worked at Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf, and basically what we did was we reached out to all of our friends. We sort of did a map of like, You know, who are we really close with and who and where do they work and we asked them like hey or told them basically Hey, you know we started our own company We understand that your companies may or may not need extra work in the future And if you need like X services like please feel free to hit us up like we'd love to Work with you guys and create some work for us and that actually was really helpful We started getting a lot of projects from friends are like, oh, hey Yeah, like my art director mentioned that we need some you know design or illustration And so, you know, I recommended you guys and so just keeping up those relationships is really important And that was like a really big way that we started getting work And then the the second route was we took There are a lot of artists out in the world who have big followings which we did not have. And, you know a lot of their work is like still work though, whether it's typography or even illustration, it's like still. And so what we did, because we knew how to animate things, is we with, with permission we took some artists like work that we really respected and basically took their still work and animated it and we sent it out to them and they shared it on their much larger sort of like social followings and their websites and things like that. And then from that point, we also started getting some inquiries and they were really grateful for us to like, kind of take their work and, and bring it to life. So those are, I think the two main ways that we really. Start again at work.
Track 1:I love the, the, the mapping exercise. It's like you were already. I already had this, the, the organizer mindset.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Create a power map of your friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, right.
Track 1:Is there, is there, you know, like, I'm sure that the journey since launching the business has not been a straight line from, from A to B. I'm sure there have been some ups and downs. Can you tell me about like, what have been some of the more challenging moments you've had to go through? Did, was there ever a time that you felt like quitting or thought that you might have to give up the business, anything like that?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:My gosh. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean certainly when we were starting out I mean that was pretty tough like, you know when we we a few months into the company, you know This is like just as we're starting to think about oh, man, you know, why don't we just reach out to our friends and see? You know, for the first few months, like, we were really not getting a lot of work, and, you know, we were, I remember, like, very vividly, like, really, really budgeting, because I wasn't, I didn't really have an income, and I was, like, selling some of my stuff to, like, make money for rent, and, you know, I, I was really worried that this wasn't gonna be a sustainable practice for us to keep this work going. So definitely at that point right at the beginning was really hard and we maybe got, I want to say it took us maybe like six to eight months to like really start to like lift off and do sustainable amounts of work. So that was really tricky. The pandemic was really hard for sure, because, just like I mentioned a little bit earlier, like, you know, it's, unfortunately, there was just so much uncertainty around it, and we lost a lot of work for quite a while, and you know, I, I feel so, like, for a lot of other folks who, you know, aren't these, like, giant corporations, you know, who really struggled throughout that time, like, I really feel for them on that front, because, you know, we also got hit really hard from the pandemic, so that was really tough. And, yeah, I think those would probably be sort of the biggest moments where, where things were really, really tricky was just like because the income wasn't necessarily reliable for certain, like, unpredictable periods of time, yeah.
Track 1:can I ask, and I don't mean this, I, I don't mean this as like a, a gotcha by any means You sometimes hear these stories about like, yeah, look at this person who's in a creative field and they're doing these really great things and against all odds, they managed to make it. And then it's like in the article, it's like, yeah, with just a small 200, 000 loan from their parents. And I'm just kind of curious, like If you're willing to say, is this, like, something that's, that other people can, can repeat? Was your family, like, really backing you up, or were you just really, out on your own winging it?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yeah, you know, when we started the company, my uncle, Jeff Bezos, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah really we, we, we we did not have any sort of investment or infusion of cash in the beginning at all. It was really just the money that my business partner Colin and I had at the time. So it was really all our own money. I remember my dad very specifically my banker dad. Kind of like thinking I was crazy because I was starting a company without any investment or like sort of any like upfront capital or whatever. So really it was just our money that we had currently in our bank accounts. You know, that's, I think one of the reasons why we were so worried when we were first starting out that this wouldn't be sustainable is just cause like we, When we didn't have work in the beginning we were like Running running out of money really fast and we're like we gotta eat we gotta pay rent so yeah, I mean this is definitely something that we were able to do without that The the big like asterisk i'll put there is that like I would highly recommend for folks who would want to do the same thing to while they're still in a job that gives them a paycheck every two weeks Hopefully that's how your job is set up or even like monthly. That they're able to start building up like client work before they leave that job security and sort of transition out of the current work they're doing as an employee, and then into their creative work. That would be, I think, my biggest advice to folks who are trying to do that, because that is not what we did, and at the beginning, it was really, really rough.
Track 1:That's I think really good advice. Is there any, any other advice that you would share with people who are, you know, like, yeah, I wish I could, I, I'm in college or I'm, I'm floundering in my career. I wish I could be doing something independent. I wish I had a co op with my friends. What's, what's what's, what's your best advice you can share with us, Paul?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:This is like the million dollar question. So I, I, I'm just like cutting to people in my head of like, I listened to this podcast and he lied to me. No, I'm just kidding. So I think one always, always, always just be nice to the, to the people around you, your set boundaries. Definitely like stand up for yourself, but like when you're working with the people around you, I, I, you will probably work with them again, even if you think you never will. So just try to always be nice to people. Because the world is a lot smaller than it seems. I think that's one of the, I think, most important things to just try and do all the time. Even if someone is annoying you, like, just try to be as diplomatic and graceful as possible. The other thing, I think, in terms of, like, doing this work like, the transition I mentioned that, that would, I think, be extremely helpful. I also just think, like in the beginning, Right? When you're kind of getting started, chances are, there's probably going to be a lot more you're probably going to have to be working a lot more than you will once things get to be a little more sustainable. In the end, I know at that time that we were starting the company, like, I, you know, I wish, like, we, I feel like we worked a lot when we first started the company, and I think unfortunately, like, One of your biggest tasks when you start a company, or start even just your own independent thing, one of your biggest tasks is to let people know you exist, right? And so, doing that up front takes a lot of work, and you know, I think you want to preserve your mental health, preserve your emotional well being, make sure you're like, getting your time outside and having a good time with your friends. But in the beginning, I promise you, if you can like, get through that hard part in the beginning of not having as much work, you'll, you can make it and you can do it. Because especially like the more that you do this stuff, the, the easier it becomes and the more sort of it becomes like the back of your hand and then the more as you continue to be nice and continue to get more work it becomes a lot more sustainable and, and sort of recurring and organic. So I think those would probably be the main things about it. I also will say to like, for your own sanity, like, you do not, you know, your client is paying you for things, but you are allowed to set up boundaries with people, and you are also allowed to say no. There have been plenty of times when we've been very busy, and we've gotten work from a client. Maybe the project is, you know, kind of cool, or maybe it even pays well, but we're already doing so much work. That I know if I take on that project, that it's gonna just look and be bad, and, and, you know, that isn't good for anybody. So, you know, it's, it's also okay to say no if you're, if you're doing a lot. Cause if you wanna do this for long haul, you don't wanna burn out.
Track 1:Yeah. It's okay to say there's a limit on the amount of revisions that can be made.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:That is correct. In our contracts, this is like one of the things we learned so early on, okay? And this is like maybe, this is maybe like boring feedback so that all the people who are like really thinking about this, they've made it this far on the podcast, so it's like the
Track 1:Everyone else is gone.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Everyone else is gone. No, I'm just kidding. So I think, try to set expectations up right away, like up front. Set up timeline expectations up front, set up revision limits up front. If you don't put revision limits on things, they will revise things infinitely, set that up in a contract beforehand just get that out the gate. Save yourself lots of headaches, you know?
Track 1:Yeah, okay, Paul, I want to I don't want to, but I'm going I don't know if I'm going to. I might, I might embarrass you by pulling in something,
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:you.
Track 1:something that I think is an interesting point of discussion, which is the, in, in researching this show, I just decided to check out your LinkedIn and I don't know how many years ago you wrote this. Maybe it was two weeks ago. Maybe it was eight years ago, but there's a line on there that says something about like you believe in, and this is the quote I wrote down. Design. As a vessel for positive change and I think that that's a interesting thing to sort of unpack. I'm not saying that that's not true by any means. I, cause I do think that it is very possible, but yeah, I want to talk a little bit about just like, yeah, so you are a person who like cares really deeply about the world you live in. You are personally affected by things that go on in the world. You have dedicated yourself to trying to make the world a better place. And yeah, it, what is the role that like. Illustration and design can, can possibly play in bringing about positive change.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:The, as you read that quote, I'm on the other side of this conversation, gringing. I don't
Track 1:I'm sorry.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:the lo No, no, that's okay. Like, I don't
Track 1:not a bad quote. It's not bad.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:No, it's okay. It's just, I just, it's so funny, cause like, I always joke around about LinkedIn, cause like, I haven't thought about LinkedIn in so long, and, you know, I, to be fair, like, I did, I did really believe that at the time, and I do believe that to an extent still in terms of, you know design, and, and just creativity in general for a vessel of positive change, but, you know, I think when, when I. wrote that I truly did believe that like just baseline right and I think I mentioned this a little bit earlier but just I really loved design because of its ability to solve Problems like I had, you know, when I first had my job on campus as a designer, you know, we were Creating stuff for student orgs. We were creating things for the campus itself and we were creating work that enabled people to Navigate the campus to learn about really cool events to Learn about really important Student programs that we offered on campus and in that way like that it was a very helpful tool for students to interface with but then sort of starting my work, so I jumped into the workforce, or I should say into my studio like as a working person with that mentality of like, oh, this is going to be solving problems as like by default, right? But I think where my, where my perspective has changed a lot in the years that we've had this company is, you know, like when, when, when a big, you might be solving problems, but they're not necessarily like problems that are benefiting most people. Like, if you're doing illustrations for a giant company or design for a giant company, Really, the problem you're solving is, like, creating work that makes their product look more attractive, or makes their product easier to use, or enables them to sell things and make more money for people. I think I've learned, really, that, like, creativity has the, the ability to solve problems and be a vessel for positive change when it's partnered. With the right like, you know, clients or organizations or task or goal, right? So if, you know, I'm doing illustrations for a particular, like, really inspiring candidate, or design work for them or even design for DSA by and large, like, that I do believe is, like, solving problems in a way, and, and being a vessel for positive change in a way that I think is really meaningful in a way that, like, it doesn't necessarily, it's not always a, a vessel for positive change. So I, again, it really depends on the intent of, of what you're, what you're doing that work for, right? So I think, Yes, it can be. I still believe that it can be and it has been, but just not all the time.
Track 1:No, yeah, I, I, I really appreciate that because I think that sort of mirrors a lot of my own kind of like development and understanding of this idea that like, yeah, oh yeah, just that I can make beautiful, thoughtful things as a, as a full living human and things that I bring into the world are, you know, contributing to a better world. And I think that's sort of true, but it's also Yeah. Not if like those, the skills, the time, the energy, the gifts need to be properly applied. And they need to be applied in the context of, I think, like a larger project. If we want to talk about solving social problems, that's not something that like any individual is going to, to accomplish on their own. And and so Paul, for you, like, you know, on top of like all of this This kind of success and growth that you've had in your career. I mean, the way that I know you is because you're also a person who like makes time and I think makes a lot of time to volunteer and just like donate your energies and your skills to to organizations like, like the democratic socialists of America. Yeah. Talk to me like a little bit about that. I don't know. How did, how did you come to get involved with democratic socialists? Oh,
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yeah, so I, I think like many people, I came to be involved with Democratic Socialists of America through Bernie, through Bernie Sanders. You know, I, I actually in 2020, 2016 as well, but 2020 in a, in a pretty like time intensive way was volunteering for the Bernie Sanders campaign. Directly, and, you know, I helped them a little bit here and there with creative work when they, when they figured out I knew how to use, like, Illustrator and Photoshop. They were like, oh, you know, we've got a lot of stuff that we need made. But before that, I was mostly just doing canvassing and then getting folks to turn out to canvasses for Bernie. And when he folded his 2020 presidential run, that's when I decided that I wanted to be a part of something larger that was building toward a future that works for everybody, and I think, like, one of the most I think, meaningful or at least for me personally, one, one of the greatest things about DSA has, is that it's taught me that, like, in order for us to win this better future, it needs to be part of Like, a movement that we're building together, and we need to be organizing together for a better future rather than kind of just doing, I think at the time I was like, oh, if we do these one off electoral campaigns, like, you know, we can kind of win our way slowly to, to a better future, but I think DSA has really taught me the power of us, like, you know, building power together in the long term. And so that's how I got involved with DSA, was, was through Bernie. And initially when I got involved with DSA, it was both on, like, electoral work but because the pandemic happened you know, we had to fold up a lot of our we weren't really doing in person stuff, so it sort of, I sort of defaulted to doing a lot of design for DSA that could be shared digitally.
Track 1:cool. Yeah, that, that is actually what I was going to ask about is what, what sorts of projects have you been able to work on? What sorts of, have you mostly been able to contribute as a designer and illustrator, or do you feel like there's other skills that you've had that have been equally in demand?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:I have been involved with DSA in lots of ways. I, I've been, like, I think on the organizing side I'm definitely most comfortable doing electoral campaigns. You know, canvassing, phone banking getting out the vote, those kind of things I love to do. I love talking with people, meeting people, interfacing with people. Also just like labor solidarity stuff. Has been really impactful for me. But I've also done a lot of design and illustration for DSA. Particularly our local chapter. You know, really like one of the, of the coolest things I think about creative work and in particular, quite frankly, design is that it's like something that everybody needs, right? It's like corp, you know, of course, like, you know, companies and corporations, they use design all the time for their work whether it's applications, advertising, whatever. But, you know, like democratic socialists, like, also use it. And interface with design all the time, whether we're talking about our candidates, whether we're talking about programs that we're doing, or, or just even like, about our message, and, and the, you know, the work that we've been involved in, like so I feel like with DSA, I've done like everything under the sun. I've done, you know, I've advertised, I've done like comms around various campaigns that we're doing, advertising for events merchandise all those things. I even, for DSA, which I think this is probably like the funniest thing, is I just one day was asked to create a t shirt for our local chapter, DSA Los Angeles, and Out of that idea, I was like, oh, you know, it'd be kind of fun. We have the, we have like, we do a little character. We'll have a rose with sunglasses, maybe. He's like walking down the street, cool guy, maybe, vibe. And I just created this little character that we cheekily named Bud. And now it's so funny because that, that character, that character just blew up within DSA. And, and
Track 1:It went, it went, kind of viral.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:it did go viral. I was seeing, you know, It was kind of, It DSA viral it was sort of sort of out of, out of body experience for me to like log onto Twitter and then see this bud character photoshopped with various like signs in his hands or knives or, you know, like random stuff in his hands and then see people talking about it and see how funny it was. And then there were people that I don't even. It was, it was really kind of cool. Like I actually got randomly reached out to in 20, I guess it was 2022 or 2023 from, from folks who had from other parts of the country who were like, we love bud so much that we want to make bud the rose, like the national mascot. And so, you know, you cut to our. National convention where all of our delegates from all of our chapters who are elected come out and vote on all these like consequential things for the organization and for socialism in the United States and like, one of the items on the, was like, do we want to make this rose, this walking rose of sunglasses our national mascot? And, and we did, so.
Track 1:because we did and it was ultimately, you know, nobody really made a big stink about it or tried to Deeply organized against it, but not not everyone was on board there. There was some there was some discourse about you know Should bud be the national mascot and
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:like,
Track 1:and that's all just coming back from a t shirt that you made.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Right, exactly, yeah. Or even like, there was some, it was just really funny watching. I, I, okay, so I think part of what you learn to do as somebody who, at least I think, I think this is a skill that you should try and foster. It might sound a little cold, but like, one of the things that's really gotten me through work as a creative for clients is that I try not to, I think the phrase in, in our line of work is like, don't marry your work. And what I mean by that is like a lot of times when you create stuff for clients, they're going to have a lot of feedback and it's going to like water it down and it's not necessarily going to be what you originally envisioned it to be and that's okay. And so I think like I'm able to laugh at work that I've done when other people talk about it because I try not to attach myself to it, but it was just really funny Just like, watching this discourse about Bud, this rose, um, where people were like, you know there were some people like, Bud's so cool, that's great, but then there were a lot of people who were like, what, we're wasting our time on this, like, this is such a waste of time, like, we, we have so much more important things to talk about why are we
Track 1:were kind of right
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:I mean, it was one of those things where I was like, yeah, you know, they're like not, it's not that important to talk about the mascot versus all these consequential things for sure, but also, we could just like, approve it and move on. But there was a lot of, there was, there was, that, it got really heated, the discourse about Bud.
Track 1:Yeah, you're just like in the middle of this, like, firestorm. I, I, I will say, yeah, just the, the amount of design that you've contributed both to the chapter and to the national organization is like incredible. I don't know if you, if you all don't know who Paul is already Paul is like become kind of like a national hero in DSA just because of the amount of time and energy that he contributes. But I want to say as much as we're grateful for Paul, I do wish that there were a lot more people who could take some of the burden off of Paul. And please consider this a clear call to action and an invitation if you are a designer or illustrator. If you are a good designer or illustrator, please contact your DSA chapter or the national organization because, like, your help is needed. I think, yeah, the, the language of design and beautiful illustration can absolutely be one of the tools that helps to convey a message, that helps, you know, make a meeting look interesting to attend, makes a canvas look appealing to attend. It's certainly not everything, but it's, I, I think it's important. A very important part of, of building a national movement. Yeah, Paul, I want to talk about just the, the amount of time that it takes and that it requires of you to be, to be involved. A lot of people I think feel possibly validly that being involved with an organization, volunteering on top of everything else they have going on, you know, work, family friends, other obligations. It's just, it's just too much. Is that, I don't know, do you think that that's like a valid reason not to be involved? How, how, how do you navigate it?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:I mean, I think, really, with, with so many things, it's, I feel like, tuning a guitar a little bit when you first dive into getting yourself involved with volunteer time, right? And so, you'll probably start by jumping in and maybe doing a little too much, and then you tune it back a little bit to be a workload that's sustainable for yourself. I think one of the Ways that I've learned to be able to really manage my time that I'm working, and like, I need to be working and then Jumping into DSA is really just trying as much as I can to compartmentalize the time that I'm working on those things. So what I try to do is, like, when I'm at my office, and I have stuff to do, I try to, like, really lock in, do not disturb is your best friend and get that done, and then be able to switch over to The work I'm doing for DSA, I think for everybody, it's going to be different. Right. And so for me, you know, for some folks who maybe they have like a really demanding job where they're working all the time and they have two kids and you know, like and maybe they're organizing something else, obviously they're going to have way less time to dedicate to to organizing with a, with a org like DSA. But for myself, You know, basically my obligations are work, I have my, you know, my partner, we have our little cat and then obviously I want time to see, you know, all my loved ones, of course, but just figuring out ways to compartmentalize those things, I think, enables you to I think more effectively, like, during your free time, but you also have to really, like, and I say this, like, you really have to continually set boundaries too, because I've fallen into this trap, Where things start as like a tiny ask and then they get bigger and bigger and then by the time you look back, you've piled on so much work. That you're feeling just really overwhelmed and so like, it's okay to say no. It's okay to start by just taking a little bit on and like only adding a little bit more work as you go along. Because really like, we're in this for the long haul. Like, this is a long term project. Both your creativity. Is, is long term, and then, you know, organizing for a better world is also a long term project. So, you know I knew, know so many great people, whether organizers or creative folks who've like burnt out because they just did too much too fast. So just, you're allowed to be protective of your time. Yeah.
Track 1:yeah, thank you. That's, I really appreciate that. That's really well said. Just as we start to wrap up, thank you for Being so generous with your time to, to come on the show. Before we go, is there anything else that's just been on your mind or that, you know, you'd like to share with the audience, just kind of related to these big picture themes of creativity and social change,
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:Yeah, I mean, and thank you so much for having me. This has been really cool. This is officially the first podcast I've ever been on. So,
Track 1:you're a natural.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:we're making it one. Wow. Thank you. I appreciate that. You know, I think just really in terms of like just creativity and kind of what I've been thinking about a lot recently is like, I really appreciate the fact that, you know being somebody who does design and illustration like with You know, particularly the world I think that we're building you know, even in just like Los Angeles, like we've been making a lot of, like, there have been a lot of really cool folks who have been taking office here who've been doing a lot of really cool labor organizing, and I've just been really grateful about the fact that, like, My work has allowed me to interact with those folks, not just like canvassing or things like that, but, you know, creating work for our organization and those people like who are really making moves and, and making a world better place, like how my work and just creative work in general is able to really you know, interact with those folks, but also. Like I think what's really cool about making creative stuff or like illustration design music even things like that like We I think have this really cool ability to make these ideas that might seem sort of foreign or strange to people or maybe a little scary because it involves a lot of change. We are able to make these things cool and we're able to make them digestible and we're able to make them you know, a part of a world that people can actually see themselves in, right? So I think, I think that's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately when it comes to creativity and how it sort of meets this change.
Track 1:Cool. Well, thank you so much, Paul. I really appreciated having you on. Hope you have a good night. Is that
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:you. too, Jordan. I really had a great time.
Track 1:Wait, did you How long have you been for those simply listening, Paul's Paul is adding some video filters. We got some fireworks, now there's confetti.
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:we, you know, Apple just keeps adding these, these features, so you know, we're just, I'm just going to keep using them.
Track 1:Oh, are you gonna work for Apple next, Paul?
paul-zappia_1_04-02-2024_192757:ha ha ha!
Track 1:Thanks again. Have a great night and thanks everybody for listening to and roses.