007 - Nora Meek

Nora Meek is an LA-based storyboard artist and writer who has worked on shows such as The Patrick Star Show, Animaniacs, Disenchantment, and more. Nora is also a rank and file member of The Animation Guild - IATSE local 839 - where she is involved with the CREW reform caucus.

This episode is a fascinating peek into the world of entertainment labor and the ways workers struggle for dignity as they navigate and build their unions while trying to maintain a ‘dream career.’ Enjoy!

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Thanks for listening and supporting left media. If you’re interested in conversations about the intersections of creativity and social change hosted by a socialist organizer, please follow along for this 8 episode “Season One”. I am also so grateful for comments or shares that help us reach more people!

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- Jordan

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Transcript

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 0:24

Hi, everybody. Welcome to and Roses show about the intersections of creativity and social change. My name is Jordan and I'm joined today by Nora Meek, who is an LA based storyboard artist and writer who has worked on shows such as the Patrick star show, Animaniacs, Mau Mau, heroes of pure heart, disenchantment. And more Nora is also a member of the animation guild, IOTC local eight 39, where she's involved with the crew that's capital C, capital R, capital E, capital W reform caucus, which we'll talk about today we're, we're going to talk about Nora's journey from being an artist, an artist with a dream to being a union activist. With a cause and we're going to talk about what the hell is going on in animation and in Hollywood and why you should care. So how are you doing today? Nora,

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:18

are you doing today, Nora? Uh, You know, I'm

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:22

you know, can't complain here on a beautiful, warm, sunny day recording and roses with a person who embodies the ethos of the show as somebody who is, you know, creative and artists and also involved in fighting for social change.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:38

So sweet. I'm

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:40

I try. I try.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:42

kind.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:42

I, I want to start by talking about Hollywood and what's going on in, in the industry. I think what we're going to talk about, you know, some, some labor negotiations, a potential strike. And I think some people who are not like working in the industry might be hearing this and thinking like, Wait, I thought, you know, we just heard about, we had a bunch of big strikes last year, didn't we? We heard about like workers organizing we heard that they, they won. But now we're also hearing that it's like, things are still pretty bad. Like workers got a lot that they were organizing for, but Things are still really slow. People are still having a hard time finding work. Yeah. What's, what's going on, Nora?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 2:23

on, Nora? Yeah, yeah, it's, it's tough in the motion picture sector. Yeah. And in entertainment in general, right? Like, think, any kind of content and then, video games, everything else it's, it's really tough. Studios are, are shrinking, production companies are conglomerating The company I just most recently worked for, Paramount, which owns Nickelodeon, just announced a merger with Skydance for 8 billion, you know, spending all of that on just consolidating the amount of options that are, like, available to the public. So there's like very little work going on right now eliminating all of this like content and the need to make it means that they don't make it. And so, you know, where other sectors in IATSE like live events and stuff. You know, theater are doing a little better. Motion picture is really kind of suffering right now. As well as and that includes animation too. I think animation is usually sort of, last one in first one out when it comes to consideration, right? Like we our budgets are often like half of what it takes to make a live action show. And we're Not paid as well. And we're considered kind of last. So we've also kind of been experiencing that squeeze even before the strike started though, as well.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 3:59

Yeah. Can you share sort of like a overview of, yeah, for people who aren't working in the industry, yeah, you hear about there's, there's the, the writers are on strike or the actors are on strike. And then people maybe have also heard about IOTC, which yeah, represents so many different people. Yeah, how, how do all the, these, yeah, sort of unions work together and who does IOTC represent?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 4:22

a union and what do they do? Who does Ioxi represent? The content mill of, like, making movies has become almost like a factory in a way. So, we've got a lot of what we would call craft based unions. So, the WGA and SAG AFTRA are unions that cover a specific, like, type of worker, which is writers and actors. And IATSE is this interesting blend of a bigger union that covers a lot of different types of workers. That is, we are kind of like, sectored out into these different kind of sectors. So we've got you know, people who work in theater and sagecraft and live events and even to like, movie workers, like movie ushers and ticket takers and projectionists. We cover all those people, but our biggest sector is like motion picture workers, the crew that creates the stuff that the writers and actors touch. And we're segmented into these different crafts. So, for onset workers, you've got like, boom mic operators and like, camera operators and directors of photography art directors, and then You know, off sets, you know, you have people like us who are animation workers. But broadly we're all kind of like segmented into these little locals that like cover the kind of work that we do and we call those like crafts. So, we think of unions as fighting for better working lives with better working conditions. But also sometimes unions are kind of put in this place where they're fighting to be able to work at all. The WGA and SAG AFTRA strikes, they took place because unions and their members, like, saw how urgent and prescient the need was to make sure that their careers stayed careers and didn't disappear entirely or become gig based or, you know, get swept up and eaten by robots. And workers right now are fighting this sort of uphill battle against conglomeration, not only of, like, entertainment, but like all media, including like even tech. So despite, you know, the success of these strikes in these very craft based areas, there are so many different areas of work where workers are being squeezed for like every last cent. And in order to keep up the gains that the WGA and SAG AFTRA got, other workers in all these different kinds of sectors are going to have to follow suit. It just, it can't just be the WGA and SAG AFTRA that are kind of like dragging everybody across the finish line. It has to be also the crews and what we call, what are called in the industry, below the line workers. So people who aren't deemed to be like. high up creatives or in front of the camera, but are more behind the camera. In, in some ways it's a, it's a fuzzy distinction to make, but it's, it's sort of an industry term. But we're going to have to start fighting as well. So

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 7:36

and the actors, they, you know, did one of the most dramatic things possible for, for an organized group of workers to do last year. They, they went on strike for a pretty substantial amount of time. And so now what's happening for it for those, for those. in the know IOC, is also in negotiations with the same producers that that the writers and actors had to negotiate with yeah. What, what is the situation? In these negotiations right now, is it a similar kind of like tooth and nail fight for survival that may lead to the crew members going on strike? How is that, how is the negotiations going?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 8:18

It's hard to know, as a rank and file member, and especially as an Animation Guild member, because we aren't privy as much to the goings on of those negotiations as maybe a lot of us would like to be. But broadly we've seen kind of, like, the work of SAG AFTRA and WGA very well. Like, in terms of what it will possibly get IATSE members, for very little effort on the part of IATSE members the studios do not want us to strike. And They're exhibiting that in, in ways probably where they're acting a little more amicably than they did with the WGA and SAG AFTRA, but also in other ways where they are withholding a lot of work. And that is not only because they are. conglomerating, right? Like, they're trying to make, have to make less content for, and, and when they make content, they want to make it for less money. They want to make it overseas. They want to make it for, with non unionized workers that they can pay less. So they are putting the squeeze on us in those other ways, right? So that

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 9:40

can they just do that? Can they just go to non unionized workers? What's, what's stopping them from doing that if it's cheaper for them?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 9:47

for them? What's stopping them from doing that now? We see it happen quite a bit, right? I think, there are a couple of, like, European countries that have, like, very you can produce live action film quite cheaply there. And we have seen some, like, production go over there. But, you know, broadly, I think what's keeping what's keeping them from doing that entirely and moving that entire industry over there is the same exact thing that kept Folks from, or the studios from moving production to During the WGA strikes, writing and acting is elsewhere, right? It's that like, this kind of content and this kind of quality there's a certain like bar that that the studios can't race to the bottom of or go very far underneath before they're not making enough quality content that will get them like the, the money and income that they so desperately want

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 10:45

yeah.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 10:45

order to keep up with the CEO paychecks. Right. So, I think what's stopping them is also, workers, right? Any sort of time where, you know, especially in the States when folks are working on a non union production, they can go union at anytime, and that's like up to them, right? That is like a way that workers are taking back kind of control of the industry. We are seeing it in VFX, especially right now in IOTC2. And even in, in games, there's an upsurge in unionizing to push back against this, like race to the bottom to make content cheaper and of lower quality or of the lowest quality that a customer might accept. That's sort of like the way that workers are keeping everything afloat, is by

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 11:32

If, if, if you have, you know, they're obviously Yeah, it is cheaper to, to go to other places, but the, but the quality is, is here in, in the USA and in America there's, there's a tradition of craft that's been passed down. But for, for workers who are in this union, like, yes, you, you already have a union already and you are downhill of these wins from, from the writers and the actors and the the studios don't want. Another strike. But so, so what is it that, you know, what is the fight this time around kind of like centered around? What are some of the things you're fighting for and why is it that those things aren't necessarily a given?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 12:10

what are some of the things you're fighting for, and why is it that those things aren't necessarily given? the bone and they have been for a very, very long time that it's come, it's become this sort of like expectation on movie sets of like 14 hour days that will go further and further into like, you know, shoots will end at 2 a. m. 3 in the morning, 4 in the morning and Shows that are shot with no breaks or weekends. So, folks who are working on like, 80 days at a time with absolutely no Saturday or Sunday. And these are kind of like, Conditions that are almost like a given a lot of the time especially on American productions. And that is like the main sort of like fight of I think a lot of motion picture workers is an end to these insanely long days on set that often cause like, just the worst kind of accidents, right? Like, Spike Osorio from local 728 died on a marble, marble set falling from It's like wooden catwalk that the studio didn't maintain and Rico Priam recently died as a result of a car accident while driving home after a 14 hour overnight shift. And IATSE members are surrounded by death. They go to a movie set, you know, every day in these like far out locations trying to make wages to pay bills that are stacking up because You know, and thanks to all these, you know, companies withholding work, and they accept these conditions wherein they could just die or be severely injured and disabled on set at almost any time because of this, like, sort of race to the bottom. So that is, I think, the main fight of IATSE workers right now and that's sort of what they're expressing. And then as well, like, sort of the It's the same kind of fight that's linked with WG and SAG AFTRA, which is like the fight for retaining careers at all, where like, if folks are replaced if actors are replaced by AI artificial intelligence or, or any kind of generative technology, If artists or writers are replaced, then so are these crew workers. If there are no sets, there are no onset workers. And so that is also sort of the existential fight, right? And that crosses over into animation work where we are not surrounded as much with like the threat of death or, or things like that. you know, falling on us or killing us or these sorts of things. But we are faced with the death, the potential death of, of our entire art form and livelihood. What is the

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 15:14

So, so negotiations are ongoing at the moment. What's, what is the timeline here? When are, when are we going to know if it was a, is it a win for workers or a loss for workers?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 15:30

I I, folks have been kind of expressing that Things are moving along. Basically all these Hollywood unions come together to negotiate the Hollywood basic agreement. And then they and they get some time to negotiate their own sort of, terms that are based on their own crafts, like the editors have to do editor specific stuff. The, the set medics and grips have to do specific to them. And then they all come together to work on, you know, overall wages and working conditions and protections and that kind of a thing. And then The area standards agreement negotiations take place, which is everyone else outside of Hollywood. Those are folks working anywhere from like New Mexico to Chicago to Atlanta to New York on all these different kinds of film sets. They're very impacted by this big contract that they actually weren't able to vote on until 2021 for area standards folks. And where are we at? What are we expecting? A lot of the time as, you know, I'm a rank and file member of IATSE. And I am an animation guild worker, which the animation guild contract isn't negotiated during these negotiations. We negotiate afterwards.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 16:48

Is that?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 16:49

Wow, that has a big history behind it. But as, as that kind of worker, you know, broadly, I don't, I, I don't necessarily know how, how things are going to go. But man, that's, that's a fun little history. We used to negotiate with with the Hollywood Unions. We, the Animation Guild came from radical roots. We, we came from this union called the Screen Cartoonists Guild. We were originally allied with this union called the Conference of Studio Unions, CSU. And we struck Disney in the 1940s. And then when CSU was striking Warner Brothers, which for labor heads out there, Hollywood's Black Friday IATSE colluded with the producers and Strike Broke CSU. So after an unsuccessful strike against Terrytoons the Screen Cartoonist Guild was sort of, like, subsumed into IATSE just as CSU was. And we came, we became what we are today. We eventually got the name the Animation Guild after the Motion Picture Screen Cartoonists Guild. That was a little too long. But our troublemaker roots, we kind of remained strong with that, right? In 1982, we struck as the Animation Guild over outsourcing of our work. And IATSE actually, our parent union rescinded its support for the strike of the then Little Union. We were very plucky. IATSE members of, like, sound and editing departments crossed the animation workers picket lines. And after that, in 1985 we were then summarily removed from the tandem negotiations with the other Hollywood

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 18:38

Oh, wow.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 18:39

Yeah, so now IATSE negotiates health and pension benefits for 839 that we traditionally kind of bind ourselves to accepting but 839 members when, when those health and pension benefits are, are negotiated at the Hollywood basic level, we don't have a vote and how

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 19:01

I hope you don't mind my saying it, it just, it, it's so interesting. Yeah. There is of course, like all of this, like. This history and, you know, these, these stories are going back like decades and decades of like why you are in this situation that you are in. And of course, That's that's everyone we didn't fall out of a coconut tree But you know as a as a member who's in this union and you're just trying to figure out how to you know Fight for you know, good working conditions and and fight for a living how how do you like obviously you've become like very well like versed in all of this But it it just does seem like very complicated and very difficult to navigate. Like how how do you as a You As a member, a rank and file member like navigate and find your way in all of this.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 19:48

your way in all of this? It's been a lot. It's at times I felt like a little bit, like, crazy. Like, am I the only one who, like, is going through this? And then actually, like, broadening my, like, labor community has like really helped. Like, I realized that like a lot of different union members from all different kinds of unions whether you're talking like a grocery store union worker or a grad student worker or an electrician all these folks like go through kind of similar like, kind of, mazes of of, of, of a design that was, is kind of a symptom of an organization generally. Like, I think any organization that is this old or organizations that are the this old, like, are going to have these, like, eccentricities to them. That are like difficult to navigate and kind of unapproachable sometimes. I think a lot of union members try, I think folks want to be involved. They want to make a change to their, to their working lives and livelihoods. And sometimes it can be a little intimidating because we're using a lot of, like, very, like, formal, like, processes and, and it's hard for people to understand, like, how those things work. And so, a lot of my work that I try to do with folks is teaching them like how their unions work and kind of the process of like raising their expectations of like what a union can be because the way that unions have kind of had to shrink over the terrible Reagan years has created this sort of like, very unapproachable system that Doesn't really serve union members that well and doesn't really meet workers where they are and the process of, like, getting involved in your union and doing things in it, that's what makes the union, like, do things that that do get others involved and that do make powerful changes to your working conditions. Thanks. Well, let's,

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 22:05

a little bit about raising expectations because, yeah, you're in this situation where, yeah, we were just talking about like, there are reasons to be optimistic about the current negotiations that are happening. And you're in a position where you're not necessarily, you don't, You fully even know what's going on, but you're maybe a little bit hopeful. But at the same time, you are very, very heavily involved in some efforts for reform inside your union. Why is that? If, if there are, you know, negotiations that seem like hopefully they're going well, what is there, what is there to reform? Tell me a little bit about CRU what it stands for first of all, and then what, what it's all about.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 22:45

about. Right, yeah. So CRU is the Caucus of Rank and File Entertainment Workers. It was born out of kind of three desires, I think one for transparency, one for more involvement and, and one that kind of looks at the way that the union works. So it started back in 21. I think folks may remember you know, a lot of IATSE telegraphing this sort of We might strike, you know, strike authorization vote

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 23:18

Hmm.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 23:19

And then the T. A. The tentative agreement came down. A lot of IATSE members and Motion Picture saw that as like a lackluster contract, and the Hollywood locals actually voted it down by majority. But their electoral college system that they operate under, that we at the Animation Guild are no longer subject to because of what happened in the 80s. Negotiate our own contract, but it, the, the system kind of chewed up the votes and spat out a yes vote, but it was a majority no vote for the Hollywood unions and members kind of saw this union use the strongest tool available to it. And then they saw what kind of contract it was. It got them because the connection between people and their power wasn't made between our community and the consumers of the content we make and their power and then also between like politicians and their place in empowering workers. None of that was kind of like made or tapped into so with transparency, kind of Unions work because people do. People work when they understand what's at stake. We hear all the time from IATSE members. They come to our caucus and they say, what's going on? What are we fighting for? We are just a rank and file group of folks who have come together and kind of, like, seen that there are a lot of, like, information disparity, right? So members can't be there to fight for what we need if we aren't informed. Members want to know even what our proposals are. The W. J., for instance made its proposals clear to its members by allowing them to vote. vote on them to ratify a pattern of demands is what they call it before they even went to this table. But at this point in IATSE, the AMPTP knows more about what IATSE is asking for than IATSE members do. And, you know, how is a union member going to talk to their local politician or their community leaders about their contract and what's at stake if they don't know? And it sort of also goes to the involvement aspect, like, how do unions fight? They fight with people. People get involved because if they know the strategy and people people understand the strategy because they help develop it. IATSE members you know, in this sort of like period of, of low work feel kind of like lost and they're in a contracting industry and haven't been given tools to, to make IATSE's fight stronger. We don't, we haven't been taught that those tools exist, but if we were invited in to strategize on how we want our union to move during these contract talks and given, given like opportunity for meaningful feedback, you know, then we'd see that participation matters. Right now, we don't see that. So CRU is about sort of, raising expectations about the way the union could work.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 26:14

I mean, this, this all sounds, you know, it, it, it all sounds like, okay, yeah, obviously there should be transparency. Are there, is there some sort of, like, faction or a competing caucus that is, you know, just saying like, no, we actually don't need all of that? What sort of, like, opposition are you running into?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 26:31

Not a lot. I mean, I, I think broadly union members are on the on the side of being more well informed, more well educated and more involved because that is the default for a worker unions. In any organization that is as large as an international union, by its nature there are some, like, bureaucratic aspects that kind of create a disengagement, right? But we can un teach that and we can create a system that, like, that doesn't kind of see that as the default. For a long time before this, and many For many unions all over America, this sort of amicable system of bargaining worked. It got us through the 80s, which was a terrible time for workers. But now studios are not just studios, they're corporations. We're fighting against Amazon, who's making content for Amazon. But also delivering packages. We're fighting against Apple, who I've worked for making peanuts cartoons, but like someone else in Maryland is unionizing at an Apple store. You know, Hollywood isn't just in Hollywood now, it's national and it's global. So as these companies are like, eating each other, getting bigger, gaining more control. We have realized that this old way of bargaining where we prized labor peace isn't working for us anymore. We're making, you know, billions for entertainment companies that are just slaughtering our jobs and somehow we're still supposed to feel lucky if we work for Netflix or Disney. So we know that our current system, just like our electoral college system, doesn't serve Hollywood motion picture workers anymore. And this sort of means of bargaining is now outdated. But there are some folks who, you know, believe in the, the tradition of, of sort of an amicable relationship with the studios. And you know, that's something that we have to kind of like, contend with, is like, kind of like telling people, like, you know, it's possible for your union to do more than just, you know, the same kind of like raises that don't keep up with inflation, like every three years. It's, it's possible and, and it's only possible through your involvement. We kind of have seen, and again, because it works, right? We, we have taught people that their union is like a, a vending machine that you put dues into and then outcome like. Basic protections or, you know, if something goes wrong, it's the kind of an insurance company that comes and fixes your problem, but that's not really what unions should look like. But it's what we've been taught because of all of this sort of like, just the government, just being a total shithead, just like in the eighties. And I think unions can look more like. a community garden where like some people are doing tending, some people are like watering, some people are thinking about like what's going to happen next season, but we're all looking at like the plot of the garden. We're all like working together, communicating with each other, and sometimes our jobs are moving around but we're all working on it together instead of just kind of like waiting for the same kind of of results every single time.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 29:51

I really appreciate the way that you sort of framed all of that. Sometimes, I've heard from some people who are involved with or, you know, care about union reform, and I feel like it can be a fine line. It can be quite easy for, you know, your frustration with, you know, you know, some of leadership to almost veer into just repeating like right wing talking points about, you know, like your your corrupt union bosses And creating this sort of vilification of leadership, but to just reframe it as Emphasizing the desire for the transparency, emphasizing the desire to bring members into the work. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about, like, how you see the ideal relationship Between rank and file and leadership, because I mean, due to the structure of a union, you, you do need to have some of that hierarchy. You do need to have some sort of leadership. But, but in your ideal world, what is the relationship between, you know, paid staff and rank and file members look like,

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 30:51

The thing about Being a worker is that a union is the fastest way to get you what you need, right? Like, everybody sort of wants the same things. They want a say in their workplace, they want protection when something goes wrong and they want, you know, to be able to, to have a job that gets them enough money that they can live off of and also have a good health and pension. None of that comes without. a union contract. And the beautiful thing about unions is that they put workers on the same legal footing as as their bosses. And union negotiating is like what builds the union the most. It's incredibly empowering to, to be able to be, you know, in the room with your bosses and, and like have the law and this organization and your, your people behind you to, get what you want and what you need. In the workplace. So what unions really should look like is more participation on every single level. You know, we're told that forming a union will solve our problems, but it's actually acting like a union that will solve our problems. We need to be able to gather sort of like, like minded people, see what they want, and then That's the ethos of a union, right? So, what we need to kind of look at and think about is that Our unions shouldn't look like our workspaces are at work, you know, you don't elect your boss and you don't expect to have any say in anything. You don't get to vote on things at work and that's why unions are great is because they don't look like like our workplaces. But if your union kind of looks work like or feels work like where there is a sort of like, people who you don't really get to talk to making decisions at the top, and then you're not really taking a lot of like democratic kind of votes or, or you don't feel considered. Maybe then, you know, your union isn't operating to the, like, best that it could, right? And, and that's not, you know, anyone's fault. It's really just, honestly. Again, Reagan. I, I think that building that space for rank and file members. Kind of comes from building community ones that allow people to cross these craft barriers instead of separating, you know, prop makers from the boom operators from the grips who are all in separate locals and don't get an opportunity to hear each other's issues. It looks like making a union A place where secrecy and confidentiality aren't the norm because secrecy serves the boss. Transparency and information being readily available. It brings people together. So it looks like building spaces where people could talk to each other people where people can learn from each other and then also teach each other. Right? Because the, at the end of the day, the person who is the foremost expert of how their union or how their working conditions should change is a worker. And it's, it's not anyone else. It's not the boss. It's not anyone. It's not a fancy lawyer that the union hires either. And it's not the staff. It's, it's the worker. And so, a space where, where the worker's voice is sort of like, work, we reconvince ourselves that we actually matter and that our voices, are the expert voices is, is the way that I think unions are, are making themselves the most powerful that they could be.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 34:29

how did you get involved in all of this or actually like even going back a step further, yeah, I I have a friend who just, he recently broke into the industry. He got his first job. He dreamed for his entire life of becoming a illustrator and that involved, you know, just like passionately, tirelessly working on his craft, improving his skills, trying to network, moving to Los Angeles and just like. Knocking, knocking, knocking, knocking at the door before he finally got a job. That's like a very, very difficult thing that a lot of people think like, Oh, that sounds cool, but you know, we'll never actually like make it in that way, I guess. But that's something that you've been able to achieve. Yeah. How, where did for you kind of the, the dream of, of working in animation come from and what was your sort of like journey to Hollywood? Like,

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 35:21

yeah, I mean, that's, that's like such a common experience, right? This is just like a hustling, hustling, hustling. It's like this hustle grind site culture. That's like the, the other one that you don't see on Tik TOK where we're like always constantly just trying to like hone our craft, improve our craft. When it comes to like artists, you know, cause like our, we tie our, Like worth so so much to our creativity and like those things are inextricable, you know, like um So yeah, I mean I feel like I was pretty standard, you know, like I loved animation all my life like comics and cartoons heart and soul that was my like bread and butter just like growing up so that was the dream. And I went to school in New York and moved out was basically I, I had no idea what a union was, right? So I, I, I should have stayed there and unionized like my friends at Tipmouse Los Angeles, shout out did eventually do. But what I did was I just moved. to Los Angeles because a lot of the story was taking place there. I did a lot of freelance, a lot of gig based stuff. I worked in a warehouse when I came out to LA. Then I tried like working at like, It's like, I was like, I'll work at this dog rescue place. I realized it was actually like a front for like a dog breeder. And I was like, I would come home. I

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 36:45

my God. Oh my God.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 36:48

boot up my tablet and then I would work on freelance. I would do drawings. And this was like the tail end of like when animation was still done in house at Union Eye Studios. So when I got my first I kind of leveraged enough freelance to leveraged like an unpaid test to go work as an animator. I you know, kind of a frame by frame drawing, but on a, on a tablet. Worked in pretty bad working conditions. You know, like, ceilings falling down, like, this

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 37:17

Oh my gosh.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 37:17

like, they call it the, a bullpen. I was, like, sexually harassed at work. I was threatened with, like, termination if I didn't, like, speed up production. But, I was in a union. My, my union I, I kind of was like invited out to these, like, Oh, do you want to come to the general membership meeting? I'm going there in my car. You can come with me. Okay, cool. I don't know what that is but

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 37:39

So, so you weren't really like even a, you weren't even really a super like union aware person before all of this, you were kind of just focused on you, you just had your art that you wanted to do, and then you find yourself in this moment where it just sort of is like, Oh, I guess this is part of the experience, this, this union is sorry to interrupt, just, just wanted to verify that.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 38:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got it. It's like, I was just kind of dropped into the, you know, I a lot of artists in animation have that same experience where they, they didn't unionize their shop. A lot of studios in Los Angeles are already union, or they'll come because they, yeah. Like the fact that we have really good talent, they'll come and they'll like, sign a union agreement, like, as they're making the studio, right? For instance, Wild Brain which I did the Peanuts shorts for when they opened a branch in Los Angeles, they went union immediately. Like, no contest. Like, if you're in Los Angeles, and you're in animation, a lot of it is union. But. Their Canadian studio was not Union. And those workers had to work really, really, really hard to flip their studio, which they just did. Shout out to the Canadian Animation Guild, you know? So yeah, so I didn't have to really work that hard, but realizing, sort of, These kind of like conditions that I was working in like weren't that great and like realizing that I could change them with my union was like really cool. My union actually gave me access to like free skills building classes that taught me how to do stories. So I got From animation to storyboarding in 2017, and from there I did writing on and boarding on cartoons. Not only do they treat you better in story, they pay you better. But turning my focus now to these sort of like foot in the door jobs Similar to what I had production workers, for instance, at Nickelodeon were making the same wages as fast food workers, but they were producing Spongebob, a 13. 7 billion property. And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was 17. 4 billion, like, and these folks can barely make rent or get groceries. That's sort of like, They are, are now turning to, to our union and creating that, that organization within themselves and their structure and joining in with our union and that being able to see other people do it like firsthand and witness that is like just amazing, like super galvanizing.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 40:17

So just like for you to have these experiences and then you sort of start you, you're in the union, you're seeing kind of the benefits of it, the power, power, the meaning, but what was it? Was there sort of like a tipping point that convinced you like, Oh, actually, like, it's good. I'm glad we have a union, but I think it can be better. I got what, what was that for you?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 40:41

Animation is very separate from the motion picture on set locals, so we are in motion picture. local, but we are working in offices very siloed away. So I don't work with people who are on live action sets. I don't know what their conditions are like. And why would I have cared? No one told me, but I started doing stuff with the young workers. at my local, at the Animation Guild, which connected me with the other Young Workers Committees at these other Hollywood locals. And I started hearing things like, you know, about all these, like, on set conditions, like how terrible, like, the hours were and how long you had to work to even make a decent enough paycheck. And it made me appreciate, like, how you know, Well, I had it in a way as an animation artist, you know, not to downplay our own issues. But it made me care a lot about the, the way that they were suffering, right? I wanted to help out. And so I did, I worked with them a lot. And then, you know, when, I tried to sort of get involved at the kind of like national level, right? So, so the way that kind of like, All of our locals come together it's like kind of district by district, so we have these kind of like amalgamations of like different states that come together so that we can like do the business of the union. I started kind of seeing the inner workings of like, our systems and then realizing like, How more the more further up kind of like, you went nationally, the, the more and more minuscule, like the voice of the worker was able to be and that kind of manifests in the fact that like, I didn't know this as an animation guild worker, but I had no ability to even vote for the president of my union. And neither do any of the other Hollywood workers, right? We don't cast a ballot for it. What happens is you have to be elected as a delegate. You have to go kind of in this sort of like Congress type system to a convention that you can only attend in person. So that leaves out, you know, anyone who's Disabled or immunocompromised can't get on an airplane to travel or can't make arrangements if you're a caretaker to travel. So these delegates are entrusted with the vote for anything at the national level. It's

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 43:11

Are, are the delegates elected?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 43:15

The delegates yes, are elected. Yes. Oftentimes so, so delegates are apportioned based on this is, you know, getting into the, like, the weeds here, but they're apportioned

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 43:24

This is actually what I'm interested in. I'm going sicko mode right now, too.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 43:30

Put this on right before you go to sleep. I will lull you to bed. The delegate apportionment is based on the size of the local the, the, and the charter of the local and other per capita taxes paid to the national. What

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 43:46

though, is like, because, I mean, yeah, so it's not, you don't get to directly cast a vote for the president. But there is still, I mean, that is kind of a democratic structure if you're voting on who the, delegate is. Isn't that theoretically somebody who is like going to represent the interests of the people that voted for them?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 44:04

It works out? Yeah, the, the in practice part is is the kicker. I mean, It's tough when you're talking about sort of democracy, right? Like, what does that word even really mean and how, you know, jingoistic are we getting with it, right? Like, when we're talking about a democracy that mirrors the American one, it's not the best, right? We're not modeling ourselves after the best kind of democracy, but that's sort of what we kind of. Almost reflect in a way with our delegate system and with our contract sort of voting system it's not enough just to sort of, just how it isn't enough to just like sit back and then like vote for a president every four years in America. It's not enough just to sort of sit back and vote on a tentative agreement every three years. And in the same way that that it's very difficult for Americans to get a hold of their representatives. It's also, there is no sort of like, system for our members to sort of tell our delegates what they want and the, the actual practice of like how that voice manifests itself in delegate votes and delegate sort of movement is hard to see play out you know, in a uniform way. It's, it's not really clear to, to the average rank and file member how to tell their delegate who they want to vote for, for president. And so for a lot of unions lately, it makes more sense just to vote for on a majority kind of like basis. So the UAW, the United Auto Workers recently won the right to vote directly for their president. And they voted in the rank and file voted in a president that was, one of the most radical in the UAW's history and led them through these extremely successful stand up strikes that we did, and, and a resurgence in sort of unionizing across the U. S. And we see this again and again. every single union that wins the right to To more democracy and to direct democracy. It infuses that union with this sort of passionate and fire where the disengagement is gone. They believe that their union, now that they have this direct voice, they believe that they, they can be in the driver's seat of their union. So they do participate. They come out and they use what the power of the union is, which is people.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 46:44

Yeah. I I think the work that you're doing is, is very cool. I wish you all the best. I guess what I'm sort of wondering is, you know, I mean, I, I think probably if somebody is like listening to this show, they think already probably like, okay, union's good, But it is just interesting when you really like dial in on, yeah, just like some specific craft, because at a certain level it's like, yeah, you're going to all this. You know, trouble in your organizing, fighting the bosses, but it feel, it could feel like, okay, this is just mostly benefit, like, this is the people who are already have jobs in the industry, who are just trying to like, reasonably get better conditions for themselves, but Yeah, like, how does this benefit society? And I know that it does, but I'm just kind of curious how you see sort of like your role as a union activist as something that's not something that's bigger than just you.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 47:41

just you. Right. I think that unions absolutely are kind of like the kind of practical way that we are able to leverage the power of just average workers to get benefits that are Not only that are in our working sphere, but all of the things that cross and intersect those spheres. So when we're talking about our working lives, we're not just workers, right? We also have health considerations, health care educational considerations and access to education and work is intersected by race and by sexuality, and work is also intersected by the fight for climate justice, and for and, and as you kind of widen that lens, it, it work is intersected by prison industrial complex, right? We are pitted against low, as workers, low wage you know, workers who are imprisoned right now, working for like below minimum wage and terrible conditions, right? And then in the global sort of like fight for, for against, you know, war and things like that. We touch that, right? As, as the UAW is, you know, and all these other sort of manufacturers covering weapons manufacturer, right? So, so as we kind of like expand this idea of what what our work kind of like means and what it means to be a worker. We also expand the, the realization that like we have more power than that. We have more power than just a certain percentage of a wage increase every three years, right? We have more power as Groups of people, not just unions to make lasting change and we don't just see that you know, play out statistically when. You know, workforces are unionized. We see all across. That same workforce, even in non unionized areas that those workers benefit we also see, kind of like in the person themselves in the worker, like, acting and being a union or acting like you are in a union, acting together, acting concertedly, talking to each other until you get a big consensus, and then acting on that consensus, that gives the individual a power that they have been told over and over and over again they don't have by, you know, whoever it is, the powers that be, the bosses, the government, whatever. And so. It's, it's sort of this process of doing it practically makes you say, Oh so I do have power. I have this special power. So you, at the end of the day, you don't need a union to act like a union.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 50:40

Mm hmm. For you personally, like, Going on this journey, you know, starting out as somebody who just, you wanted, you were inspired by the cartoons and shows that you grew up watching. You dreamed of like being able to be involved in that spending the years kind of like honing your creative craft. But now here you are all these years later and it's like, you're going on podcasts to talk about why people should, you know, organize and form a union. Do you, do you feel like I mean, yeah, we all sort of, you know. Our dreams and our desires can change over the years. Do you feel like, I don't know, your creative energies that maybe you once thought about, just like, I want to, you know, I want to make shows. Is that kind of like fulfilled through the work that you do organizing now? Or, or do you feel as though like this work is maybe like more of an obstacle and it's just something that is like a necessity and you just, you wish you had time to just make the shows, but. This is, unfortunately, what you've gotta do. Mm hmm. Mm.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 51:45

animation is this like special, like, Art form, right? That is so like, compare it to comics, compare it to painting, or, you know, anything else animation is this special art form that's like, especially industrialized, right? We have almost this, like, pipeline factory process and, you know, In that way. It's also been corporatized, right? We, we have our roots in like, Disney which is this huge, like, conglomerate power now and I think When people start out in animation, they don't necessarily, or maybe they see that as kind of like a benefit, you know, like, you know, if I, if I just work hard enough I'll get my, you know, show idea noticed by this big corporation and they'll, they'll put the money forward to make it because animation is very expensive. It's difficult to make and it is, you know, that pipeline process and it takes a lot of people to make it. For now. I mean, if robots don't have a say in it, but realizing that and, and realizing that, like, you're not just kind of like this, this like siloed artist. You are this kind of like, you are a worker in every sense of the word is kind of, in a way a little bit different. of disillusionment sometimes, but like also like very exciting to see yourself as like included in the the labor wave and the labor movement. I like to call creativity, like by another name, I call it generative power. Because I think that workers inherently have different kinds of power, right? They have like, you know, people power, the power to come together and, and withhold labor, but they also have generative power, the power to come together and like make things together. And that's where I see like, Art playing into like sort of the labor aspect of my life is that I get to see people have a vision and then execute it creatively together. Like at Nickelodeon we brought people together in a way that was like incredibly more transparent than, than it ever had been in our union before as we were negotiating this contract. And we said, what do you think will work? To scare the bosses, and they had so many ideas. We did things, labor actions that we had never done before. And seeing people go, Oh, but we have these chalkboards all over Nickelodeon. What if we papered them? What if we, we drew on them? No, what if we you know, used sticky notes to just pepper them with all of our demands? And what if we did it? You know, there's this big company corporate event coming up in Nickelodeon. What if we planned it and executed it at that event and sort of forced all of these executives and CEOs to look at our demands as we're negotiating this contract that they are dragging their feet on? And seeing people just add Generatively onto this idea feels like working in animation where you're collaborating with people together on these, like, these projects, you're bouncing ideas off of each other, just like you are in a writer's room. And that I think, like, has been so fulfilling because not only, you know, You're not doing it anymore for for the company, right? You're not writing a funny joke that Patrick says on, you know, a Spongebob show and then like giving it to them to make money off of. You're doing it for yourself. And you're doing it for your colleagues and your coworkers. And that's a more exciting, like power to like, realize that you have and like instill in other people. Well,

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 55:36

of the generative power, but it is, like, the very first thing that it makes me think of is, like, generative AI, and because you mentioned it's like, we can, we can do, and it is, that's not the only thing it makes me think of, I think it is a great concept, but I was, I was kind of already thinking about that a little bit, because you had just said, you know, it's like,

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 55:55

you know, animation

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 55:56

Animation is extremely labor intensive unless it is something that like robots can replace. And it feels like maybe that is something, like that is a new battle that we're going to see how much we need to contend with over the next few years. We don't know. We don't know what the future holds and what new fights it's going to hold. But, I mean, there are certainly challenges, like, on the horizon. In addition to The challenges that are already all around us. Are you somebody you feel like it's possible to

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 56:29

to make

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 56:30

make the world a more beautiful place while, you know we still struggle our,

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 56:34

we still

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 56:35

our lives against capitalism? Or do we just need to, to do, we need to burn it all down and, and start over?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 56:43

Oh, that would be beautiful too! You could make art with the ashes! No. Yeah, I mean, there is an aspect of you know, kind of like, burning and rebirth that, that we kind of, do every day kind of as artists and creatives but is it possible, you know, to make the world a better, a beautiful place? Yeah, I think so. I think, like, I, I often, I used to tell myself the, the last time that art mattered was in the 80s, you know. Cause we were going through sort of like the The AIDS epidemic and a lot of like, of the protest of that era you know, the protest of the 70s mattered and the protest of the, of, like, decades before mattered. But like, the 80s were the last time I felt like sometimes that it mattered that like art had an impact on like politics and on society. But, but I think art still matters. And it's mattering more to people. I think people are realizing the impact that art has in their lives and how much we need it. And I think the pandemic, like, Almost triggered that for a lot of people. People, like, looked at their work and the things that they had to do to survive and said, like, this is not, like, me. Like, and we saw this, like, resurgence of, like, Not only just like new, like, independent, like businesses and stuff that people were starting on their own, but also like, people pursuing like their dreams and their crafts and their passions more. And that is what kind of got us closest. That I think we ever got to, to a general strike. We called it the Great Resignation, I think it was called. Where like, a lot of people were resigning from their, their jobs all at, en masse. And it, it made wages go up. It actually worked for a brief moment, you know? And then, you know, there was the crackdown, right? And that's sort of like what we're struggling against. And there's always this push and pull of like us discovering our power, using it. And then like, Of course, like the powers that be and our bosses and, and the sort of like upper class kind of like realizing where they can push us down even more. And so, I think the beauty is in the struggle a lot of the time because there's the energy that comes from the anger, it really is an energy, right? Like, I think realizing and struggling together makes you connect with people that you never would have known that you can connect with, right? Like, I have been I helped organize and build these, like, protest prop puppets for Unite Here Local 11, which covers the a lot of hotel workers in the area while they were doing their 60 plus hotel strike across Los Angeles. And, like, those boundaries, like, wouldn't have crossed, we wouldn't have crossed those boundaries unless there was a fight and a struggle for me to, like, be involved in. So I think, like, that, like, is the beauty. You, the beauty is in, like, finding ways to help each other in that way.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 59:55

Yeah, you made me think of two things just now, one just that, you know the, the emptiness of, of life without sort of like art and beauty, which is, I think about you know that, like, They made a bunch of movies in the 90s where it was just sort of like the main theme was just like a guy who had like a super comfortable like life, you know, big house in the suburbs, some cubicle job or and just like hated the monotony of it and that was like a big thing that there was a lot of cultural commentary about at the time and yeah it was just this idea I think in this moment in history where like Yeah, people like had everything and even like aesthetically like have some art sculptures or whatever pieces of art on the walls, but, but just the emptiness of, of a life that is just a little too like sterile. Yeah. We'd look back on it now and we're like, are you kidding me? You guys have no idea how good you had it, but, but yeah. And the, cause the second thing is, is that it's like, that's sort of the. The, the beauty that brings fulfillment is not just like aesthetic. It's, and it's not just content. It's not just like something that is nice and pleasing to, you know, music to your ears or whatever it is. I think what's really especially meaningful is things that are forged out of, out of struggle, out of community out of building something with. And yeah, and so I think that that's if we want to talk about intersections of, you know, creativity and social change. I mean, I think that's, that's where the fulfillment in life lies is exactly at that intersection. I do. Okay, I'll say the third thing.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:01:35

thing.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:01:36

In, in the phrasing, the framing of that question about do we need, can we build beauty under capitalism or do we need to burn it all down? I would like to clarify. I am a socialist. I do ultimately think that we need to completely reconsider. Reform our economic system in this world. I'm not suggesting that we should just try bringing about some beautiful reforms under capitalism. I just want to be, I want, I want that on the record.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:02:05

Just so, so everyone, stop writing the Google

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:02:10

not clip that other bit. Nora, I, I loved having you on the show. I'm just curious. Is there anything else we've covered a lot of subjects, but anything else that we didn't get to that's, that's been on your mind or anything else that you'd like to share?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:02:24

I mean, yeah. Just such a wonderful, like, conception, right? To, to think about, like, art as, as connected to to the struggle kind of for, for, better conditions in life. I think that's so powerful because as artists we, we don't see ourselves connected in that way. We see kind of like, ourselves apart from the labor movement, first of all, because you know, this isn't, we, we, the conception is not that like we have, like, real labor, right? Like it's a labor of love. We, we do it because we love it. You know, like,

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:03:05

Mm hmm.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:03:07

I, you know, I don't think that's a right way to look at it anymore and that's exactly the way that companies want us to look at it and the power of the Zepi want us to look at it. It's like, you're doing yourself a favor by being able to create, but Really, it is, like, something that human beings desperately need, and we wouldn't have a society without, and we would be sort of stuck in this sort of sterile loop of, you know, in a very depressing life without and we have power in, in recognizing that, that we are we, the value we bring is, is not, like, something that we're lucky to be able to be paid to do. It's something that we're extremely underpaid in doing and mistreated in doing, and and we shouldn't have to do to survive. But yeah, it's, it's and that's what makes kind of, like, I guess, like, that struggle beautiful. And it'd be so nice to have, you know, A nice utopian society. We'll get there eventually, you know, right?

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:04:14

We're working

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:04:15

like, maybe like three more podcast episodes, I think we'll get there. Like,

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:04:19

I think so. Three more. And my call to action. joined the Democratic Socialists of America, which is the largest socialist organization in the United States and is a group that connects people across all sorts of struggles from labor to climate to racial justice and immigration justice. That's one thing that people can do. Just, you know, Personally speaking. Nora, you have any plugs? Any other competing socialist organizations you want people to join?

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:04:49

Well, no less than 12. No, yeah, I think it's great. And, and I saw a little shout out that DSALA did of, of a little video that even animation workers put together on their social media that they call animation workers ignited. People making art to kind of, Hype up the, the struggle, right? Like, so all of these things are so wonderfully connected and just so happy to, to be connected on this.

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:05:20

Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciated having you. Good luck with negotiations and reform efforts. We're wishing you all the best.

nora-meek--she-they-_1_06-04-2024_152920: 1:05:31

Thank you. Good luck, you know, not getting canceled. I'm so sorry. You know,

jordan_1_06-04-2024_152926: 1:05:37

They're coming for me, the pitchforks are already coming out. Alright take care, Nora.