Ever wondered how to juggle multiple demanding roles while making a significant impact in your community?
In this episode, we sit down with Katie DeBoer, a remarkable woman who wears many hats – owner of a residential construction business, founder of the Faith and Freedom homeschool co-op, and Kent County Commissioner. Katie shares her inspiring journey from humble beginnings to becoming a community leader, balancing her roles in business, family, and public service. She opens up about the challenges she faced, the lessons she learned, and the importance of faith and perseverance in her life.
Join us as we delve into Katie's story and uncover valuable insights on leadership, resilience, and making a difference in your community.
Key Takeaways:
1. The importance of recognizing when you need help and seeking support.
2. How to transition between careers and find your true calling.
3. The impact of building a strong partnership in marriage and business.
4. Navigating the challenges of homeschooling during a pandemic.
5. The value of humility and learning before leading in public service.
THIS EPISODE IS SPONSORED BY: THE PALMER GROUP real estate team. The Palmer Group is an energetic team within 616 REALTY led by Eldon Palmer with over 20 years of experience helping people navigate the home buying and selling process in West Michigan. To support the channel and all of our guests, contact Eldon@ThePalmer.Group, drop a COMMENT, SHARE, LIKE or SUBSCRIBE to this podcast. You can also learn more at https://thepalmer.group/ Whether moving to Michigan or another state,, we can help and we would love to chat with you over a coffee or your favorite beverage on us!
HAVE A SUGGESTION? WANT TO BE A GUEST ON THE PODCAST? Reach out to Eldon@ThePalmer.Group or send us a DM.
WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOUR 5 STAR REVIEW
Ever wondered how to juggle multiple demanding roles while making a significant impact in your community?
In this episode, we sit down with Katie DeBoer, a remarkable woman who wears many hats – owner of a residential construction business, founder of the Faith and Freedom homeschool co-op, and Kent County Commissioner. Katie shares her inspiring journey from humble beginnings to becoming a community leader, balancing her roles in business, family, and public service. She opens up about the challenges she faced, the lessons she learned, and the importance of faith and perseverance in her life.
Join us as we delve into Katie's story and uncover valuable insights on leadership, resilience, and making a difference in your community.
Key Takeaways:
1. The importance of recognizing when you need help and seeking support.
2. How to transition between careers and find your true calling.
3. The impact of building a strong partnership in marriage and business.
4. Navigating the challenges of homeschooling during a pandemic.
5. The value of humility and learning before leading in public service.
THIS EPISODE IS SPONSORED BY: THE PALMER GROUP real estate team. The Palmer Group is an energetic team within 616 REALTY led by Eldon Palmer with over 20 years of experience helping people navigate the home buying and selling process in West Michigan. To support the channel and all of our guests, contact Eldon@ThePalmer.Group, drop a COMMENT, SHARE, LIKE or SUBSCRIBE to this podcast. You can also learn more at https://thepalmer.group/ Whether moving to Michigan or another state,, we can help and we would love to chat with you over a coffee or your favorite beverage on us!
HAVE A SUGGESTION? WANT TO BE A GUEST ON THE PODCAST? Reach out to Eldon@ThePalmer.Group or send us a DM.
WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOUR 5 STAR REVIEW
You know people. They don't realize that they need help, and I'll testament to that too. I like to figure it out myself and I don't always like to ask for help. But to be able to say, okay, I don't have this skill set, I do need to have someone at least compliment me or help me figure it out.
Speaker 2:Hey, welcome back. Today we have Katie DeBoer, owner of a residential construction business, founder of Faith and Freedom homeschool co-op, and also a Kent County Commissioner. So welcome, katie. Thanks for coming in.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Why don't we get started with talking about your history? What's your origin story? What was little Katie like? Where was she from?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I grew up in Kentwood and with good, loving parents we didn't have a ton of money, honestly, Pretty humble beginnings Went to East Kentwood, had all of my schooling there and I'm the youngest of three girls. Okay, I would say as a kid I was a good kid, Like I was obedient, Like I didn't challenge my parents a ton.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's my origin story, that's what everybody says, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm sure I challenged them in some ways, Because all kids are challenging right, sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:as a dad of three girls, they've been pretty good too, so anyway, so you, you went to east kentwood. Uh, did you go to college education? What was growing up like?
Speaker 1:yep, um, we were very involved in our church growing up, um, and I ended up going to uh cornerstone for my bachelor's degree. I got a social work degree, um, but I didn't stay in the social work field a ton. I I really have the heart for that and I have the heart for people and I like service, but my skills and my mind is more geared for, like, analytical careers, and so I ended up being in chemical labs testing active ingredients and drugs and then I ended up in an engineering lab as well so how do you, how do you go from social work to a chemical lab tech?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was pretty easy for me actually, like it was somewhat natural. I would say for the social work that my hardest time was just the level of emotional distraught in the industry. Yeah, like I interacted with these people that you know they didn't have food and so I would, I remember, at my internship I would go to through my college dorm and try to get food for some of these people who I was serving at my intern, my social work internship, and like just the amount of as a single woman, like at the time, the challenges of just trying to help, support and seeing and seeing a lot of these struggles. You know, I remember I had one resident who her sister was her mother, so her dad raped the daughter, dad raped the daughter and you know and and like those kind of horrible stories and like how, how do you help and serve people right where they have these deep, severe, you know catastrophic issues?
Speaker 1:For me when I was a young woman, like that was, that was hard for me and I honestly, I really liked the stimulation of the mind, like just the challenges of trying to figure things out and so, even though I didn't have a chemistry degree, I did end up testing at Parago and Amway's chemical lab and I enjoyed my time there and then I transitioned from there, got married during that time, transitioned into Steelcase and then I worked in the engineering lab there and then I ended up doing safety compliance at Steelcase Okay.
Speaker 2:So what did safety compliance involve?
Speaker 1:So that was basically we dealt with our compliance certifications for all of our basically smart furniture. Okay, so our smart furniture mostly that has electricity running through it right, and some of the other furniture that you just have. You know standards like, have you like UL, you know, like Intertech, all of those, those are US-based, but Steelcase provides for the entire world and so all of the other countries have their different types of certifications and sometimes, you know, they're consolidated with different countries, and so we had all of these certifications and at the time they were housed on hard drives. They were housed like sometimes people would have a shared file, like it was just all over the place, and so someone would be asking I need to see the certificate of compliance if we wanted to have a new, you know, if someone was interested, a new vendor wanted to see it, and so it would take forever to try to find all of these certifications.
Speaker 1:So when I was there, I said we need something, we need a database, and the IT department at the time couldn't handle the workload, and so I just took it upon myself and figured out how to make a database. So, and I had already experience in web development and so it wasn't too difficult for me because I had, like I had a little bit of coding knowledge, different languages, but so I got pretty involved with. I used Microsoft Access because it's a very accessible database system and you you know like a lot of people don't like it because it is a very like easy way to learn database structure. But so I used Visual Basic and then you know SQL for all of your search queries.
Speaker 2:So what time, what time?
Speaker 1:um, let's think I got married in 2011 and had my first daughter in 2013. At that time, I was at amway's lab um working third shift pregnant. That's hard.
Speaker 1:Um, I just did not sleep during the day with the kid, because the kiddo well during during the pregnancy was really hard working third shift because I just could not sleep during the day. I tried and I probably swore like, used foul language more than I had ever used during that time during that pregnancy. But so that. And then I had another child at 2015, my son. That was when I was at Steelcase. And then I had my last daughter in 2018, while I was still at Steelcase, and shortly after I had my third, I tried to find a good nanny and that didn't work out and I couldn't find reliable child care, so I ended up quitting steel case and stayed home with the kids and that was. That was a transition myself, like going from corporate world to yeah being a stay-at-home mom.
Speaker 1:But I was really thankful that I did that because I, in 2019, I left corporate world and then, if it happened, right, so there was no way I was going to be able to handle working and being home with the kids when schooling wasn't reliable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a tough. I mean coming home. I came from the corporate world, came home with my daughters after we had our second one, just for similar. It's just hard to manage both and you don't bring home out of extra money because daycare is so expensive and you drop them off and you just see all the things you would do better and so yeah so. So you went from there, you came home with the kids. So now your husband has a business at this time, or what's he?
Speaker 1:When we were dating, he started a hardscaping business, which is outdoor construction. So it's patios, retaining walls, outdoor kitchen areas, water features all of the hard stuff of landscaping and really it's a form of construction. And I here's my spiel about hardscaping. If you want a retaining wall, or if you want a patio or you want some type of outdoor construction, hire someone that knows what they're doing, cause landscapers really don't know how to do it. They don't. They're not building experts. If you want a patio or retaining wall, find someone that knows construction, because it's a lot more like construction than it is like landscaping.
Speaker 2:that's my little spiel about actually makes sense. You know, you don't think of that very often and people are often confused well, and then you see all of these failing retaining walls.
Speaker 1:Well, honestly, it was probably done by a landscaper that didn't have the construction knowledge and experience. So, but back to that. So in 2010, we were dating. He started that business. I was working full time and I was providing, you know, the money for us, because he was building a business and really didn't make any much money, you know, for the first couple years. But, um, it grew quite a bit. I mean, he's an expert craftsman, he's incredibly gifted, you know he's. He's a genius. He's a mechanical genius, construction genius, and he has a visual mind too, where he can see, like the beauty and I can't think in pictures, yeah, so, so I'm terrible at any of that stuff.
Speaker 1:But my husband is very gifted in that way and I I tease him sometimes that he's fancy because he likes nice things, like he just likes things. He likes quality, you know.
Speaker 2:So makes sense. So he's. He's kind of this old breadwinner at that point when you come home now he is, yeah, he is okay, and so you, the kids, kind of get off into school, did you? And this is what 2019, 2020.
Speaker 1:So you eventually kind of started working in this business with the hardscape business and we also had built our own house. I'm trying to think when it was In 2018, we had finished. We sold the permit, I think in 17, and then finished in 18. And I was like eight and a half months pregnant when we moved in.
Speaker 1:It was our goal to like get in before the baby? And I was. Maybe I was eight months, I'm not quite sure, maybe it was seven and a half, but I just remember being really big and moving all these boxes and people were like you're going to deliver that baby right in front of everyone. But it was fine and we got in and so we built our own house and at that time I had no idea, like, how to build a house. I mean, my husband knew how to build a house but he also didn't understand all of the regulations that's required and all of the permitting and all of the you know stuff that you have to know outside of just actually building the house.
Speaker 1:So for me, I started with the zoning ordinance in Cannon Township and I started reading it and my mind like went, like this is so much stuff right in here, like this is a crazy zoning ordinance.
Speaker 1:And then I find out, well, all of the townships are like that they have all of these regulations just about where you can put your house and you know all of like how tall it has to be, how many square footage, you know all of that stuff. And so that was really like my first interaction with government, because I was just kind of well local government. I would say it was just kind of mind boggling, like this is crazy, this is what townships do. They oversee the development of all of this property and acreage. And so that kind of sparked my interest a little bit. Also because we saw the equity that we gained by building our own house made sense financially and so I ended up getting my builder's license. I also ended up getting my MBA during that time of leaving corporate world. I think I got my builder's license actually while I was still at Steelcase, but yeah, so I got trained you to help out with a construction business a lot more business side kind of.
Speaker 2:So you know, kind of looking back to their, you know what kind of what lessons you learn, like building your house. You know I contracted my own house, a lot of sweat equity into it as well. Um, you know anything you do different there?
Speaker 1:or or maybe lessons that you know might want to share with people trying to do the same thing yeah, I honestly think my husband and I um, it was stressful, right, building your own house, but it was really rewarding and it was kind of refining in our marriage I think of like we have to communicate better, we have to be on the same page, like because there's so many things that overlapped, even though he was doing the actual construction and I was overseeing more of the business side of it.
Speaker 1:So I think that for us, like that pressure of refining our marriage and making it stronger was a really good situation to be in and it and it it's helped us because we are even more like related in business areas now, like we just have more going on and more you know the the business has developed over the years, and so to have that good foundational relationship with my husband, you know like it's required to be successful years, and so to have that good foundational relationship with my husband, you know like it's required to be successful, and so I think for me, just that building our own house was really the foundational element that we needed to be able to be successful together in business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, not everybody can work with their spouse in business, right? I don't know that. You know it's challenging right.
Speaker 1:I mean, my husband has a different communication style than I do, and so we have to figure it out and make it work.
Speaker 2:But it's helped us in our marriage too so, talking about that different communication styles, which is common I mean husband and wife often we're complementary, we're very different in some areas and shared values. Were there any books or educational things that you did during that time? You know, did you have a mentor? You know what did you rely on? Because self-awareness, just seeing that and understanding that you know that's important to be able to communicate and to be able to work together because it's not only a business, it's also a marriage, it's also raising kids, anything kind of that you leaned on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I would say during the time when I left corporate world, I kind of had an identity crisis because I was a stay-at-home mom. Nobody really knew anything that I was doing right, and I feel like a lot of stay-at-home moms are in that situation where they're like I've lost myself, especially when they were in corporate world and now it's all about the kids. And, yeah, I had ways to still be involved and to have a little bit of business work to do, which I enjoyed, but at the same time I wasn't seen right. I was behind the scenes. My husband was the one out in the field doing all of the real work and I was the one in the home office on the computer and then also, you know, over taking care of kids and stuff like that which is fine.
Speaker 1:But it was really difficult for me reconciling that, because I did kind of want to be seen you know a little bit and I did want I don't know, I wanted some more acknowledgement of all the work that I was doing than just my husband saying thank you, and that's a pride thing, right, it's my own self saying I think I'm worth more and not relying on the Lord, jesus Christ to give me my value, like it's something that it's incredibly humbling, right, not being seen, not necessarily being rewarded like overtly, I guess, for all of your efforts. So for me I would say that that time really started well. I think a lot of other situations humbled me, but that situation in particular, I think, was a humbling experience and it also forced both my husband and myself to adapt to each other a little bit better, because we all have jagged edges right and sometimes they hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And especially when you're working so intimately with someone, you have to learn how to adapt to them. And so and that goes for me and for my husband our jagged edges, you know, those have to be refined and we have to continue to try to, you know, make it a little bit more moldable. Maybe work together I think like humbling and just adapting. I think that answered your question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so. I mean, it sounds like faith played a part in that. You know, sometimes there's friendships and kind of you know, self-education type things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't really I'll be honest. I'm pretty internal as far as I want to figure it out myself. I can tell.
Speaker 2:Which is a great skill to have.
Speaker 1:And I don't mind like sharing honestly or being open with anyone. But I also have never well, I should probably, but I have never really sought a ton of mentors or a lot of self-education, other than me just doing it. And sometimes I think that's the best education right, because if I can't understand something like I remember I had to learn QuickBooks, I had to learn how to do a profit to learn QuickBooks, I had to learn how to do a profit loss statement, I had to learn how to build websites. You know, I'm just gonna throw myself in there and if I sink or swim hopefully I swim if I sink, then I'll find ways to figure it out, or I'll find another resource, or then I maybe I'll have to humble myself a little more and reach out for help of a mentor or someone. And so I yeah, I don't mind being open and honest, but at the same time I'm pretty stubborn in the sense of I want to do it myself, because sometimes that's the best education too, I mean sometimes there's not enough of that in the world.
Speaker 2:Frankly, like people constantly rely, I see that sometimes, often in kids are afraid to fail, so they're afraid to start.
Speaker 1:I'm not afraid of failing and honestly, that's why most people become successful, because I didn't grow up with money, I didn't grow up with any influence or any like I don't know power or authority or anything. I was just a nobody and city kid. And so to challenge yourself and to know that you can fail. I mean I tried to doing a couple business ventures myself and I failed royally at them.
Speaker 2:But what were they? Do you mind getting into that a little bit? Well, so I tried selling stickers okay on Etsy my kids have had bought tons of stickers over the years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah right, I tried selling stickers on Etsy and that didn't work out. And then in 2019, I did Rockford Riddler, which had mild success. But I would also say that came from a point of me wanting to be seen, and it was not the right mindset or heart. It was me being frustrated with my husband getting glory, honestly, and me not having someone or something to do outside of the home. And so I ran that in 2019 and it was mildly successful. But it also was too much for our family and I couldn't hire, I couldn't keep employees and it was just a ton of burden on us as a family and it was not right. And so I did want to run it again in 2020.
Speaker 1:I attempted, I worked at it and then COVID hit and then I was like, yeah, okay, okay, that's, that's. Uh, I already had felt convicted a little bit, but I didn't follow through with what I thought God wanted me to do. I wanted to do my own, pursue my own and and not humble myself right and not do what I knew was better for my family. So, um, but 2020 hit and so god said, oh you suck, you know like, learn this lesson now, do it now. And so since then, I've loved that little business, right I just loved it.
Speaker 1:I thought it was so fun. People really enjoyed it what is it?
Speaker 2:let's uh real quick time out for the audience.
Speaker 1:So rockford riddler is a little um, it's like an escape game escape room made in the city of Rackford and I hid clues all over the businesses and it also includes like clues that are a little bit different. So, like I tested in chemical labs so some of it is acid-based chemistry where, like there's a hidden message and you use a base and indicate. You know, like some of that is a scientific kind of clue and and they're different. You know I haven't seen a lot of them in escape rooms and stuff. So and I do a ton of escape rooms.
Speaker 2:I think they're fun.
Speaker 1:So that's what it is, so I let it go. I told God okay, yeah, that's your. That's a clear sign that you don't want me to do Rockford Riddler right now. But I've had it still in my soul like god, I really want to do this silly little business because I think it's really fun and really cool and it's honestly it's. I feel like it's my mind out there and I don't know. It's just something I can share with other people and so I let it go, whatever. And then I talked to my husband about it and I realized I can't do it on my own and that's not his thing. He doesn't like that stuff. He's not a person that wants to sit there and solve puzzles Like he really likes. He's the mechanical, hands-on type of person you know. He needs to stay busy with his body, like he needs to do things. He doesn't need to just sit and he's not a really a reader or anything either. So, um, so I said, all right, god, I need a business partner to do this again.
Speaker 2:And then you came along Alden, and so now we're doing it together, so, and yeah and it was interesting because of all people like I had a similar interest um, and actually started a little something that comparable that you know, several years ago, until both of you know, my partner and I just got um too busy with our, our core businesses to really take, take a hold of it and run with it. So I'm excited about it too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and yeah, I think like it's kind of like a side thing right. It's something that's really fun and hopefully will be profitable and great for the community, but it's also something that like it's kind of a side business. You know, it's hopefully not going to take over too much of our time and doing other things.
Speaker 2:Well, it's nice, it's a, you know I think we've streamlined some things with it. That'll be helpful. But you know it also has some areas that kind of, I think, serve the community in a sense that you know, quite often everybody's on their phones and just doing stuff at home alone, and I think the nice thing about this is it offers people an opportunity to get together, to get around town, get outside, use their brain, use their tactile senses, and I think that we kind of need more of that, and so I'm happy that we're going to be able to provide some of that opportunity, at least Definitely.
Speaker 1:People off of their screens and doing something active that's good for your mind and good for your body. You get a little exercise doing it too, so cool, so we have.
Speaker 2:So what do you? So you moved in, used to doing some of some of the business in your in your construction business, and you had to figure it out along the way yeah, I mean I, I hand calculated payroll taxes.
Speaker 1:When we hired our first employee like it, we didn't have the money yet to like hire an accountant and hire all of these professional services, and so I did it. I learned how to build websites, I learned how to do QuickBooks, I learned how to, you know, do payroll taxes so, and I still actually run payroll every week.
Speaker 2:Important to keep those people paid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah it, it's just me trying it and I I'm thankful that I I've learned, because I didn't know early on, when I was younger, that I was smart. I didn't believe it, I didn't, I didn't have that confidence or anything. And it really wasn't until my mid-20s, I'd say, where I realized I was smart and I would say, at that time too, I realized all of the things that we could do in life that nobody does right Because they're afraid of failing, and so to just kind of throw yourself into something and try to figure it out.
Speaker 1:It's a fun challenge, Like it's a really fun challenge, and I think that also is like you're disciplined enough. That's how you are going to excel and succeed and get out of the pits of day-to-day grind right Of. I have to do this job because I have to pay my bills, which, yeah. But then when you start to explore a little bit and use your limited time that you have to pursue other initiatives and if you can succeed at one of them, I mean, yeah, you're going to fail Absolutely, but if you can keep going and try, there's one of them. Eventually you'll succeed at.
Speaker 2:One thing I think is that's encouraging Like you were able to jump in but you were not. You didn't go to school for payroll taxes or for accounting or for all these basic business operations, and I think a lot of businesses and people get caught up on that. I see this in construction a lot, where you'll have some great craftsmen, very skilled, they can talk to people, well even they can build an awesome house or a hardscape or whatever project. But the business side, in terms of communicating with the clients accounts, payable, receivable they often struggle in that because it's a whole different skill set.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:And it also shows that you can just jump in. I still think there's a big need for that, Like from a business standpoint. I think there's opportunity for somebody to be able to come alongside people like that. But I mean, to me it's encouraging that somebody afraid to start a business or to jump in can just figure it out, Like you can get in and figure it out.
Speaker 1:I mean it's hard and some people don't have the skill set to just understand how to I mean it's not even understanding, but have the skill set to even learn it. Right, because my husband, he has dyslexia, pretty severe dyslexia. For him to do some of this stuff is incredibly challenging and you know there are different people and we all have different strengths. So if you, I mean my husband, if he has a weakness, which I have, a weakness where I'm not visual, I can't build anything, I can't understand how things work with pictures, like, don't show me pictures. I just I can't learn that way. Then you need a compliment, right, you need someone, someone. And I think, too, people are very scared to have business partners, um, to especially like outside of your spouse, right, because there's usually a pretty firm, solid relationship.
Speaker 1:They're already, sometimes not you know in their world, but you know people. They don't realize that they need help, and I'll testament to that too. I like to figure it out myself and I don't always like to ask for help, but to be able to say, okay, I don't have this skill set, I do need to have someone at least compliment me or help me figure it out so that I can actually I mean, we have, we have to, you have to rely on each other. That's, you know, you keep. It's like pushing yourself up with another person. You know what's the iron sharpens iron.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know partnerships. I've often over the years kind of been back and forth on them, you know you hear different things. You know they're a horrible thing. I mean there's a lot of tropes with with that but um, one thing that I found is I can only do so much on my own and by partnering whether it's even, uh, hiring people to help or whether it's fully partnering, uh, with somebody has complementary skills, somebody that's going to add some accountability and just keep motivation and keep tasks moving forward, like that. You know one plus one equals three or five. It can, and so partnerships, really, and and actually more recently, the books I've been reading and listening to the past couple years have really talked about that. You know the who, not how, and right uming. You know it really requires multiple people Right, and you get much, much greater results. You got to also refine those skills.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Of communication and working with a partner Like you got to humble yourself a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I think that's legitimate. Yeah, I definitely would never, ever, ever have a construction business without my husband. I can't do construction, I mean I don't have the skills for it. So to be able to support, you know, and you know, keep pushing yourself up with another person. Iron sharpens iron.
Speaker 2:So, moving on, we kind of covered the business here. We covered COVID a little bit kind of changing things a little Anything more. You want to talk about that before. We kind of covered the business here. We covered covid a little bit kind of changing things a little. Anything more. You want to talk about that before we kind of move into um, no, I I think that's, that's most of it.
Speaker 1:I, I would say. When I started um learning more of the business stuff, I just, yeah, I threw myself in there, think, think or swim, and then I got my MBA. And I got my MBA with finance concentration, mostly because I wanted that credential for a business to be like oh, there's someone that knows how to do business.
Speaker 1:They have an MBA. It really was not because I needed it to know how to run the business or the business side of things. I had already learned QuickBooks and all of that stuff. So I mean, I think higher education is great because it opens doors. But other than that, if you need it to open a door, then get it. But at the same time, higher education can limit you financially and to be able to just, you know, just jump into something and learn it, you don't need the credential or the education. Do it right. I mean, you can't rely on every, you can't rely on education to know how to do things. It gives you a great foundation and knowledge, but it doesn't teach you how to do things really. It gives you a great foundation and knowledge, but it doesn't teach you how to do it right. I don't know, that's my little spiel about higher education I guess.
Speaker 2:Oh, I second that. I mean I spent a lot, a lot of money back in the day, a lot of time and effort in a degree that you know I I use a small portion of it and some of that was super valuable and a lot of that was sort of a waste of time and money. So you take what you can and move on. But until you're out in the world, most things you learn change. Especially in today's world with technology and best practices.
Speaker 2:Things change within a year or two quite often. So until you're actually doing it, education can be that background, but you're going to always continue to have to educate, right? Right, tax laws change every year, right, so you got to learn. You know what's the, what's the, what do I got to do to change to. You know, make sure I'm in compliance with everything, right, so, anything you'd share with somebody else, like hey, just starting a business like that, you might start over any recommendations. Like even yourself five years ago, like you did a lot of stuff and you figured a lot of things, anything that might save somebody some time and heartache.
Speaker 1:I would say my husband is the skills and I'm more of like the smarts and like figuring out the business stuff, and you need both. If you have a great skill, you're going to have to learn a ton of things. It's not just about being an expert in a certain field. You have to be versatile and you have to understand all of the elements that go into running a successful business, because you have to pay taxes, there's a lot of moving parts and there's a lot of change in compliance and the continual education that you cannot just focus on one certain I mean if you're in like a service industry and you're incredible at the service industry, that's wonderful.
Speaker 1:You're an expert in your field, that's great. But at the same time you have to be quite well-rounded to fully be successful at a business, I'd say, or you're going to have to pay a ton of money for all the professional help. And even then, you know, sometimes you have good accountants, sometimes you have bad accountants. Sometimes you have good attorneys, sometimes you have bad attorneys.
Speaker 1:So, you know, just figuring all of that out. And we also, yeah, I would say that I provided a lot of legal support for the business over the years too, and I don't have any, you know, legal education, but it's just all you know, figuring it out as you go. Great, we did go through one business lawsuit. So not, we sued another business, but our business sued another. So yeah, but our business suit another. So yeah, that was another.
Speaker 1:Like refining, I think, encourage, like you know, you you have a difficulty or you have a hard situation and you're pressed, you're, there's pressure, right, and what comes out because your character is going to show, right, is it going to be good character, is it going to be bad character? And you can even say that about your marriage, right, so there's pressure there and you're having a hardship. What comes out is your, is your marriage solid, is it, is it gonna or is it not? And when that pressure happens, it refines us and it and it can make things better or it can make things crumble right.
Speaker 1:And you know, so many times, all of the hardships that we have are wonderful learning experiences and opportunities to become a better person and you know I'm Christian to become a better follower of Jesus, because those hardships, those are the teachers and those failures, those are what you need to succeed. So I don't know. I think just we need to remember that, ah, this is a horrible situation, but at the same time, I wonder what I'm gonna come out like. I wonder what I'm gonna learn, I wonder how god's gonna teach me and refine me to become a better follower of jesus, because that's that's what I want, you know. That's why, um, is it james one that says consider it pure joy. Whenever you face trials of any kind, because you're the testing of your faith develops perseverance. You come out better if you allow god to, if, if you let god use it for that absolutely like.
Speaker 2:All the best lessons of my life came from hardship. Right, I remember those, I recall all those, and I think that's the same for most people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you really look back, we're so anti-difficulty in our culture today and that's so backwards from what it should be. You know, that's yeah, I'll just yeah. Got my spiel there, I guess. Good, no, it's great.
Speaker 2:Great info. So you know that came along, and so now let's tell us a little bit more about faith and freedom. Your home school co-op okay, how did that?
Speaker 1:get started. So that got started. Um, well, covid hit right. And, um, that is so hard, it was so hard for any parent, right? And? And these hard choices of what do I do and how do I like, if you're working, how do I work, how do I, how can I educate my child? Still, like that just totally threw us all for a. That was a hardship, right, yeah, for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:And, um, my oldest child, my oldest girl, she's um, has sensory processing disorder and you would probably never know it anymore. She's, I mean, she's just a little quirky, I think, with things, but I used to have to physically restrain her every day. Oh, wow, um, and she was very violent and I remember this is probably TMI, so, but I'm gonna share it I remember when I had my last daughter um, my oldest was five throwing a tantrum and these are tantrums like she would throw up, she would punch walls, she would get like you had to do something. You couldn't just let her go to her room and scream it out because she would like hit her head or punch the wall you know like yeah and I mean it was like she.
Speaker 1:It was like she was acting autistic and you know, autism is a sensory type of thing too. So, um, but I remember, after having my daughter and I would have to physically restrain her, and I had a newborn and I would have to restrain and I'd wet myself, oh, because I had just had a baby and I had to like I can't have her hurting my newborn and my two or three year old. However, old Hunter was three? I think so, but it was just that was a hard situation again.
Speaker 1:Like that was difficult and, honestly, for those parents who have to physically restrain their children and I only have this much level of some of that difficulty like that's that's hard. It's hard and you so love your kids and you want them to excel and succeed and to like life and to I don't know just be good people and follow Jesus and all of the stuff that a parent wants for a child. So she's brilliant though, my oldest daughter. She's in pre-algebra and she's 10 in math, right now I'm schooling for the win.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, she's got a math mind for sure. Totally logical, like very.
Speaker 1:She's just really smart and and so that a covid happened. She had to wear a mask. And I had just gotten her, like we went through a couple years of occupational therapy and like how to help her learn how to brush her hair, because she would scream how to brush your teeth, she would, you know, like all of those sensory stimulations that she couldn't handle. And so then, when she had to wear a mask, like I had to cut all of the tags out of her clothes and, like you want my child to wear a mask Like that. Just it tore my heart.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And because I had just gotten through so much therapy for her. Yeah, and because I had just gotten through so much therapy for her. And then she's back into fading life and wants to die because she can't handle the sensory stimulation. And so that was what 2020, when they shut us down, and then 2020 to 2021. She wore a mask that school year and I got the doctor's note right. I did all the things that said that my child could take her mask off if she needed to.
Speaker 1:But I know my child and she likes to obey, she doesn't want to cause any issue or special treatment or you know, and the school didn't even know that she had sensory processing because she was obedient and she's brilliant. And then she would come home at the end of the day and she wanted to die and she would be irate and throw these tantrums and it was. That was hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just can't even know that's all right. Oh, it was a hard time for everybody, yeah, and you know I saw a lot of things during that time period that changed my thoughts on how, how the school systems run as well. So so the fall of 2021.
Speaker 1:Right, they pulled that last minute mask mandate and I said I cannot be a good mother and put a mask on my child again. I just cannot do it. And so I made the decision to pull my kids and I remember, like, like. My relationship with God at that point was so intimate. I'm crying again.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, oh, it's okay, no.
Speaker 1:Because I was so desperate, right. And when you're in that hard, desperate situation, God is loud, which is incredible. So hold on, I'm going to contain myself for a second.
Speaker 2:Now protecting your kids is.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not going to do any tears, I'm going to blink them back. Okay, so in 2021, they pulled that last-minute mask mandate. I pulled my kids, my middle child, my son. He was probably fine with a mask, but he is also ADHD and just has to move constantly, and so it was just hard for him in school to sit there, and I was at the time I was giving him Adderall because he just couldn't sit. Still, my husband has ADHD too. He's been on Adderall all his life. Well, it's like six, seven. So I pulled my kids and I was like I don't know how to homeschool. I don't know anything about the education system other than I've got a fancy degree, I've got a master's degree, but teach a kid how to read like I can do calculus, I like to teach calculus, but I cannot teach a kid how to read. That's scary for me, um, and so I was like God, I don't know what to do Like I cannot. I cannot put them in a school right now. I can't do it.
Speaker 1:I don't know what to do. And so God said well then, find your village right, find your community, find your support. And so it was totally a selfish reason why I started Faith and Freedom because I needed help. I couldn't do it alone and I knew I couldn't do it alone. And so freedom because I needed help. Yeah, I couldn't do it alone and I knew I couldn't do it alone. And so a bunch of moms, a bunch of parents, came together and started something. And we're still going to this day. Um, it's shifted a ton. We started at four days a week and it was honestly it was.
Speaker 1:Most of us all came out of the public schools and so it was a kind of a different culture than most of the homeschool traditional culture. It was public school kids that didn't fit into a compliance box for the public schools. So all the kids started the co-op. We started with 40 kids in my house.
Speaker 2:Wow, holy cow.
Speaker 1:I actually I was really nervous at that time because I know zoning ordinances now and I know I was breaking a bunch of zoning ordinances. But we found a church in a week and a half after being at my house and it's been I mean, it's been another like struggle here and there you know, with learning how to navigate through some of that, I've stepped back a lot and we've got some wonderful moms that know what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Jackie she's my good friend and um knows what she's doing and I'm thankful for her. I won't share her last name because she'd be mad at me but, um, yeah, so it's been and it's been a struggle for us sometimes, but it's also, at the end of the day, kids, it's what it's about. And you went to our homeschool co-op even that 2021 to 2022 school year and they were happy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Those kids like they had their childhood back, right, right, and you go to a public school, you can't even get in the door and they're masked and unhappy. And I'm not saying happiness is really what it should be about, necessarily, but for a kid like that's pretty important to be able to learn that you don't have so much hindering you right, learn that you don't have so much hindering you right, and so just that allows you to learn and grow. And allowed our kids to learn and grow, and I would say some of our kids, like my daughter. She's 10 years old. She would be so bored now in math if she was at the public schools, if I didn't push her in math a little bit. And she's at the level that she can handle now. She's incredible in that and if you, if I, wasn't homeschooling, she'd be bored out of her mind. Like she's got it, like she knows all of her timetables very quickly, like you know. It just makes sense in her head heads.
Speaker 1:So that's been a very good thing for us, the homeschool, and to have that support and that community we found we have a village, you know, yeah, that's awesome and all of those moms that we do it together. They're wonderful people and they care about all of those kids there too, and it's not just a mom thing right or me thing right or my kids. It's all of these other moms that love and love my kids and help them and teach them, and it's just cool.
Speaker 2:That's great. You know one thing I know there's a lot of great teachers in the schools, but they're often handicapped or, you know, their hands are tied. They have to teach to a certain test or a certain model where they're not able to pour into individual kids as much as they'd like. They're not able to teach the way they see, maybe best, and we found out during the same time. It's a very inefficient model. You know, my daughter was quarantined for so many different times. She was in school 15 days in a trimester and so we end up pulling them out for a bit and going online and by doing that, seeing the amount of curriculum and how little time it took for them to get through that, I realized at that time how inefficient the model is. Despite great teachers, they're not allowed to express that greatness, I guess Right.
Speaker 1:And we had wonderful experiences when we were at lakes with the teachers. There are good people in the public schools, and so I'm not trying to criticize the work that they're doing, but they are confined Like they. They can't. They can't serve all of the kids the way that they would want to, or teach all the kids the way that they would want to, or teach all the kids the way that they would want to, but for us it just it didn't fit any longer and I couldn't do it um, but I mean, we still have a lot of friends you know,
Speaker 1:in the public schools and I'm happy that you know a lot of those restrictions during the COVID time. Um is gone, but for us it wasn't just about a mask either. It was more about allowing my kids to the freedom right, the freedom to be themselves, the freedom to not have these restrictions or these regulations applied to them, even though they probably didn't realize it. But you are limited when you're a teacher in the public schools, just because that's how our education system is. So to allow them to be able to blossom and grow at their own level and at their own pace has been incredibly rewarding, I would say. And to have my daughter, my oldest, to like life sometimes and be happier and to not have to tolerate so many restrictions on her and just being like allowing her to kind of figure out and navigate her way, um, that's been good and of course I'm helping guide her and direct her and stuff. But I mean she's blossomed and grown and so that's probably like my.
Speaker 2:One of my major life accomplishments is helping my daughter to grow, that's awesome and at the same time I know some of the others you know that are there. I'm sure it's not just your family. You know it's 40. I think you're up to 60 or so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we started in this past school year with close to 60, but we lost a couple along the way, which it happens, sure but that's like.
Speaker 2:You know, you've been able to help and and the other parents that are involved, and many will help so many other kids. Yeah, it's a more personal way and they're good kids, right.
Speaker 1:They're just sometimes they're just a little quirky because a lot of the kids you know they just don't fit in that mold very well and so we're a little high energy. The kids are Okay, they're, they're a little quirky and high energy, but it's, it's great.
Speaker 2:We find that life early. I mean, none of us really fit into the same mold. Everything's not an all you can fit. You know all in all-in-one solution, so that's great. So is that something you're looking to expand?
Speaker 1:So we're down to. Well, we did three days a week this past year but we kind of have running into some legal issues being three days a week and so we're down to two for this following school year. So if you're more than three days a week or you're three days a week or more and you're a drop-off system, it's kind of more like a school than it is a homeschool co-op, even though the parent is still like a teacher, okay, oversees all the education. We just provide support. But it's a little bit tricky regulatory wise, because you know we got regulations. It would be nice if some of those weren't there. But yeah, so we're two days a week this coming school year. But we're kind of trying to figure out because we have a couple different experiences too, like we have different days that are devoted to different things If we should separate that into two different nonprofits, because we do have some families that want this and some families that want this and they don't do both sure so they're not like all.
Speaker 1:A lot of the families aren't all three days of the week. They'll pick one or they'll pick two or something like that, and so we're trying to figure out and navigate the way, and it's just a lot, of, a lot of legal work. That isn't always the funnest thing to learn and figure out, but I'm working on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they can hold you back sometimes, yeah, so again, is that something where you're looking to grow, expand, if people wanted to join or consider.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if they want to join or consider so they would get a hold of Shannon Hardiman. She's the one that does the intake for new families or prospective families.
Speaker 2:Join or consider so they would get a hold of Shannon Hardiman. She's the one that takes like, does the intake for new families or prospective families, okay, great. So why don't we move on to one other area of service? So you've kind of served your family, served the business, served the community through the co-op, and now what other? You know, you're also a county commissioner, so how did that come about?
Speaker 1:so back to those zoning ordinances. Right, that was back in 2017 when my mind exploded with all of these regulations. Um, it was 2017, yeah, and so I had no experience, no friends, no, nothing in government. But I went to my township and I just said, hey, I want to get involved. And they said, great, we've got some openings for the Planning Commission and for the Zoning Board of Appeals. So I applied and I started in 2019 or 2018 on the Zoning Board of Appeals, and that's just a board that hears oh, I can't comply to the zoning ordinance, so can I get an appeal and I can't? 2018 or 2019.
Speaker 1:I don't really remember, but I really liked my time at Canon and I liked helping the community and serving the community, so I ran for trustee in 2020. And I had no idea how to campaign.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:None. I was just like I'm a voter, what would I want to see? And so I did Facebook ads, which, if you ever want to run for office, do Facebook ads. I think it's a wonderful way to get the word out. I never knocked a single door, not for my trustee race, I did for my commission race but and I did signs and I built myself a website and a Facebook page. So that's what I did.
Speaker 1:I ended up winning against all of trustee. There's four trustees for Cannon. Sometimes local municipalities only have two, but so Cannon had four and there was five candidates running and I beat everyone. I was like what? How did I? Sure? That's crazy. So I guess I did okay campaigning, even though I I didn't know all of the laws about campaign finance and I didn't have my paid for by the bottom of my sign. So I learned that one the hard way. But oh well, so I um ran for office. I we had a resignation on the board, and so I ended up I think I was sworn in December of 2020. And then I served there 2020, 2021. And then I ran for commission in 2022. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's how it was.
Speaker 1:And I ran for office for county mostly because I was frustrated.
Speaker 2:I was frustrated by the last minute mask mandate, right I?
Speaker 1:was frustrated with people not really advocating for a lot of our kids, especially those that you know might not be able to wear a mask, and so I've been there at the county.
Speaker 1:That term started 2023, and it's 2024 now, so I am running for re-election. I would say that my time at the county has been incredibly challenging I wouldn't say I would say challenging with personal dynamics, with people involved in the Republican Party. I really have enjoyed the mental challenge as far as you have to learn very, very complex issues very, very quickly. Yeah, and I don't think people realize how complex even county government. Well, county government is an extension of the state, so at county government, you have to deal with some of the state stuff and then you have to deal with some of the, you know, township, city stuff. So it it's a very complex government system in my opinion.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know a ton yet.
Speaker 1:So I would say, when I started my term in 2023, I did not know much and I had assumed a lot of wrong things.
Speaker 1:I kind of thought that all politicians in the county were bought and paid for, which was not the case at all, and I learned that there are good people still in local government. There are wonderful people actually in local government and Kent County is pretty well run. Yeah, there are issues. Yeah, there's things that we have to fix, but for the most part it's a decent place and they really do try to represent, you know, the commissioners and even the county-wide elected. They try to represent the people and I get that it's a complex, overbearing government system, right, kind of like the education system. I get that. And I get that there's a lot of red tape and you have to figure out your way and it's incredibly complex and a lot of it is a huge learning curve. I get that there's a lot of red tape and you have to figure out your way and it's incredibly complex and a lot of it is a huge learning curve.
Speaker 1:I get that, but there is still good in our county government and they're not sure. There's probably a little bit of corruption here and there, but most everyone is pretty, pretty good. Yeah, I mean, and there's always people that I like a little bit more than some other people, you know.
Speaker 2:but that's how it is. So what are the roles of a county commissioner?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so as a county commissioner, you receive assignments, basically committee assignments. So when I started my role in 2023, my assignments were the overall commission, right? So that's your commission meeting, and that's what most people when they think of a county commissioner oh, they just go to this meeting, right, they go to one a couple of months. It's incredibly more than that. So there's the county commission meeting and then you're assigned to a standing committee, and a standing committee makes a ton of sense for our large county. So standing committee work is done before it goes to the commission. So it's very similar to how you have, uh, at our state, we have a house and a senate and things get voted on and then they're approved. Well, with a standing committee, we have the legislative and human resources committee and then we have a finance committee, so the work gets done on those committees. So those are, you know, 10 of us, right? Yeah, 10 each commissioners. And then we have a finance committee, so the work gets done on those committees. So those are, you know, 10 of us, right? Yeah, 10 each commissioners. And then those are also open to the public, right, because there's a standing committee. So all of the Open Minions Act applies and the work that goes to the commission gets done on those committee levels. Those are the two standing committees. So I'm on the legislative and HR right now and I've actually been chair of subcommittees from the LHR and I think that's fairly rare in the first term and so I've worked very, very hard to build bridges and to try to prove myself and I have gotten some you know side assignments from that committee Because you can always go, you know a subcommittee or you could always, especially for the Legislative and Human Resources Committee, we have tons and tons of boards and committees and different things that we need county or we need people to be involved in right, so you have, like a KDL board. You have all of these different boards all around the county and commissioners assign those members and so we go through all the applications and so that's been a lot of work for me on the LHR committee and a lot of other commissioners on the LHR committee. So that's been a lot of the LHR. And then you're also you also receive other committee assignments.
Speaker 1:So in in 2023 I was the assigned to the township county liaison and so I met with the township supervisors, tried to give update them on some of the county issues. They would let me know what's going on in the townships and it was a liaison between the county and the townships and I love the. A lot of the township supervisors are awesome, they're wonderful people and a lot of them are kind of like the old school, you know, like man, older man, you know, or older men that have a lot of experience and knowledge and I really appreciated hearing their experience and knowledge. And then in 2024 I was no longer the town, the county township liaison. I let that one go.
Speaker 1:Another commissioner took it over and I got veteran services and I was really excited about that one and I love veteran services. They are wonderful people and they're just, you know, like they're raw, right and they're not very political and they're just good people and they want to serve their country or have served their country and they want to keep serving their country and it's just. It's a really refreshing um breath of air for someone in government, because they've told me too that, like not every commissioner, you know, kind of fits in with us because some, you know, politicians or government people are just kind of staunchy and and not really genuine and kind of can just take the mask away and be just a genuine raw person, but I really enjoy that group. They're wonderful and I got to help out a lot with the Memorial Day Parade just recently. So, yeah, I've just really enjoyed working with them and helping them and I think they're okay with me now. They'll give me a hard time here and there, but it's fun and it's all in jest, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, if you can get a hard time or give a hard time, usually it's people that you like or respect, unless it's a real hard time, yeah, so I think we've covered a lot today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry, I am labbed I.
Speaker 2:What I'd say is you know, is there anything that you'd recommend for somebody that wants to help, wants to maybe get involved at a township or a county level? Um, what kind of mindset and you know what kind of first steps should they take?
Speaker 1:So all of your townships and cities I believe all of them have paid positions already, and usually there's some openings here and there, which is planning commission and zoning board of appeals. And it's a very, very small amount of pay and it's per meeting. Usually it's just a small stipend, like 50 bucks or something, but it's a way to start and it's a way to get your foot in the door. I think that's a better way to go and to learn than to try to get involved, especially right now with the county party, just because our county party is a little messy right now, I think. Going to your local municipality and learning government and just getting your foot in the door and serving on a committee, even the Parks and Rec committee, or something that you're passionate about. You know they want community members, some of them Parks and Rec, I don't think, is paid, but that's fine, but that's a great way to start. And then, once you get your foot in the door a little bit and start to meet people, run for a local office Trustee is only usually a couple of meetings every month in the evening and you get a couple thousand bucks every year too. I mean, it's not bad pay for what you're doing. Um, so yeah, I would just say go to your township, go to your city, go to your village and say, hey, I want to get involved. This is my, this is my experience, this is my skills. What do you think you need help with and learn?
Speaker 1:That's one of my frustrations in being involved right now is people get involved in government and they want to change everything right away. And I get it. I absolutely get it. But at the same time, you have to humble yourself and realize you don't know that much at first and you have to learn before you can lead. And that's been kind of my mantra, like the last year or two, of just step back and learn first and then try to lead. Because we've got a lot of wonderful, passionate people involved and I am grateful that people are fired up and they want to get involved in government. I sincerely that's what we need.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, if you don't have the good experience and knowledge, it's not even about experience necessarily. It's about knowledge and it's about humility, right to be effective. Um, you can't lead an initiative, you can't try to change the culture or the government system. It is complex, like I just rattled on about just network 180, and you have to approach it with humility, you have to approach it with a servant's heart. You know, I, if I were in government, for my own pride, I wouldn't be in government because it's a horrible, horrible job. Sincerely, people call me evil. They think I'm corrupt. I've had death threats, I've like it's the worst job.
Speaker 1:It's especially commissioner sure because I I probably put in. Some weeks I put in 20 hours, some weeks I only put in five to ten. You're paid for about 10 hours a week, um, and my pay is has no benefits. So I use all of my pay, which is 25 grand, for my health insurance. So I get like I think I get like a hundred or $200 every pay period. So I might make, I may, I might make $400 a month.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when people think that you know, I'm an elite politician getting all this money, no, I mean, I can make so much more money if I quit this silly public service job where everyone thinks I'm evil and hate me just because I'm in an elected office. That you know like I'm not doing this for myself.
Speaker 1:It makes zero sense for me, for a pride thing, and so to interact with people right away that assume I'm part of a corrupt political agenda or something, I mean it's really frustrating and it's really discouraging, and I get it. I get that there's so much corruption, especially on state, federal level. I get it and I'm there too, but I'm still a mom with three kids and a wife and I'm still doing all these other things.
Speaker 2:Business owner, co-op manager and.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to serve my community. That's seriously all why I'm in government. I want to serve my community. That's, that's seriously all why I'm in government. I want to serve my community and I think I have a good skill set and a good mind for it. I don't like campaigning. I have to campaign. Right now I'm running for re-election and I'm not a good saleswoman. I've never been a good saleswoman. I don't like asking people for money, um, but at the end of the day, I I don't care if I win or if I lose. I don't because I'm not doing it for myself. If I lose, that's a win for me.
Speaker 1:But I mean yeah, as far as like selfish reasons go, but if I win and the people want me there, then I'll do it. I'll do a good job. I put in the required hours, I put in the required effort, more so I would say like it's not just you sit back and you vote and you're done.
Speaker 1:You know, and a lot of people only look at your voting record and I do have a very conservative voting record, I'd say that but they only look at that and they don't realize all of the stuff, all of the other stuff that goes into doing it. So it's just, it can be frustrating, and I get it, that people are are discouraged and irritated and passionate and all of these things. But you know, mind over emotions, right. You have to be able to limit yourself of how reactionary you can be sometimes, or else we're screwed, right. I mean, you can't always use your react to stuff with your emotions, because yeah, there's so much deeper levels.
Speaker 1:There's always way more, way more to the story, and when there's two sides, there's often many in between sure, sure, and I will say to um, being involved in government on a little bit more deep level, especially more than city and township, you do see especially like, because you interact with the state a little bit. You do see some corruption, for sure, and you do have to make votes, because I don't think I've made a ton of votes, but it's honestly in my opinion, sometimes it's a vote between bad and worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you only have certain parameters, I imagine, to work within.
Speaker 1:Right, and sometimes there's no winnable consequence because you're choosing between bad and worse as far as like a good consequence, but I would say that discourages a lot of people, especially from being involved. Right and let's be frank, like I feel that way right.
Speaker 1:It's horrible to have to make a decision that you don't want to do, but if I don't make that decision, then something worse might happen. Right, right, and, and, and so it's. It's hard for me when we have this air of self-righteousness in the churches and they look at politics and then they have their nose in the air and they are not willing to get their hands dirty.
Speaker 1:Right, because I have to make some bad calls and and I'm human and I make mistakes too, so my hands are a little dirty just because they have to be. If you're involved in this but at the same time there's redemption in Jesus Christ, right, if the church believes that, then we can be washed clean continually. You have to wait in a swamp, right? Trump always says it's a swamp, right? Trump always says a swamp, sure, and it is, and it's murky waters and you can't see clearly. And you come out of the swamp and you've got swamp dew on you. And you're going to have swamp dew on you, especially if you're involved in the state, or even maybe a little bit with the county, but not as much. But people aren't willing to get dirty.
Speaker 1:They are so self-righteous and so against allowing yourself to fail, maybe back to that that they won't go in the swamp.
Speaker 2:It's a lot easier to be the person in the stands yelling and screaming at the man in the arena, to use the teddy roosevelt quote.
Speaker 1:Um, and it's so much harder to be in the arena yeah, battling yeah, and I don't think people understand that when you look at politics, everyone, even the people that you like, are in the swamp, right, I mean some of them. I hope after this next term it's a four-year term.
Speaker 1:I need to get out of it, just because if you're in that swamp for too long in my opinion you can kind of look bumpy, sure, and if you don't have time away from it and allow yourself to recenter and reestablish your foundational values and, you know, make sure your roots are solid and everything, you are risking your character a little bit and you have to be willing to risk your character a little bit to go into the swamp.
Speaker 1:But churches aren't really willing to do that and I get really frustrated because they say that they have this strong faith in God and then they're like, oh, I don't think I could do that, I don't think I could come out of that and be a good person and I'm just thinking, no, I don't know if I can either. I'll be honest, I I don't know. But I know that God's grace is sufficient for me and I know his power is made perfect in weakness. If my faith is strong enough, if my, if I know God's promises and I believe them to be true, then I can come out of the swamp and be washed, clean. Right, and it's not about your own self-righteousness, it's not about being clean, it's not about being able to always make the best or the good decisions. It's about relying on Jesus to wash you and clean you and to make sure that you can continue to wade in the swamp when you have to, but can come out clean.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I get really discouraged when the churches are so against getting involved because it seems like they are and then those that do get involved are very passionate, which is wonderful again, but then they have this expectation of I have to always be clean and I can't like this is so corrupt, I'm not going to do it. And they get really boisterous, in which I get it, I get it again, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I noticed. I have friends in California and their election system is interesting. They've had different challenges in how they open it up. They can ballot harvest, so you could go around the neighborhoods and just take ballots and do as you wish with them. Essentially Now, some of the churches have been very against that and some are actually now willing because they're speaking up for themselves as a whole or as a church or as a group. So I think they're starting to do some of that as well, because they've stayed out of it for a long time, not believing it's a a great thing to do, necessarily to be involved in politics.
Speaker 1:But yeah, well, they let the culture go to hell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with not being involved now they, they kind of have to in order to, um, you know, stand up for their own values, and that's great and that's wonderful, but there is still rule of law, right?
Speaker 1:so we do have to work within the restraints of the law. Yeah, and if you break the law, there's consequences, but when the law confines you to being, to making that choice between bad and worse, right, there's a no, there's no good solution. So I don't know, it's it's just. It's just frustrating to me when people don't realize how tricky the waters are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, hopefully we can you know, turn that around, get more people involved. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you got to learn. You got to learn, you got to like to be effective. You have to spend a couple years just learning the system and learning how it all works, because there's no way that you can make any gains unless you do the hard work of figuring it out first yeah, real quick before we wrap up.
Speaker 2:Is there anything? Do you think that a way to like shorten that learning curve because really I think that's scary for a lot of people is even like rules of how meetings are run? It just seems like there would be a way to be much more efficient educating people on how the systems work, um, how they can make a more immediate change. And again, whether it's intentional that government is so inefficient and so layered and broad, or if it's just by accident, because it's just been addition on addition, on addition, on addition, on addition, that never really has a, a master plan of efficiency, yeah, um, I think it's both um.
Speaker 1:I think the public has been incredibly comfortable and disengaged um really since I don't know Most of my lifetime.
Speaker 2:Frankly, I would say 70s or so. I'm almost 50.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then I would say there have been people that have taken it to their advantage and have made bad decisions. I don't think the intention for 99% of politicians is to be corrupt initially. It ends up that way because the swamp is swampy, yeah, um. But I think to shorten the learning curve there are like some educational like programs and stuff. I mean you could do like a political science stuff, but honestly, just go and do it. That's kind of been how I've lived my life a little bit.
Speaker 1:Just go to your township, learn, get involved. Any federal change starts at a local level, so you start with the most local and and hopefully that affects change.
Speaker 2:You know further up the line. Great, I think we're good. I want to, you know, wrapping up with a few things. Um, you know, what have we learned here? What have we learned? A lot, we've learned. We've covered a lot.
Speaker 1:We've learned all the intricacies, not all the intricacies with network 180, but a few um.
Speaker 2:So you know lifelong takeaways I guess lifelong takeaways, I guess.
Speaker 1:Lifelong takeaways. Just do it Get out there, throw yourself out there, fail and then throw yourself out there again and succeed. Get back up, piss yourself off.
Speaker 2:Ryan, I think that's great advice. All right, katie. Anything else on how people can reach you in terms of your campaign or to support?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or the co-op. Yeah, you can reach out to me. My number's on my website, anyone could you?
Speaker 2:can Google me. It's at katiedeboercom.
Speaker 1:It's Katie for Kent with a number four. Number four and then I'm on Facebook. You can call me Wonderful.
Speaker 2:All right, well, thanks for coming on. Thank you, alan. Thanks for the time. Thank you, guys for joining us. See you next time.