What is Occupational Therapy?

The Therapod podcast features insightful discussions between pediatrician Dr. Jay and experienced occupational therapist Banu Balaji. Banu has a special interest in developmental trauma and supporting children in care.

In this episode, Banu provides an overview of occupational therapy and explains how OTs work with children and families to promote independence, self-care, and participation in meaningful activities. She emphasizes the importance of considering the person, environment, and occupation (the PEO model) when setting goals and implementing strategies.

Banu shares practical advice for parents navigating long waitlists and managing expectations, encouraging a child-centered, collaborative approach. She highlights the value of making small, manageable changes in the home and school environments to have the biggest impact on a child's development and well-being.

This podcast offers accessible, expert guidance for parents, caregivers, and professionals supporting children with additional needs, sensory processing difficulties, and neurodevelopmental conditions.

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Or email us at therapodpodcast@gmail.com. Thank you for listening !!

Transcript

 

, Welcome to Therapod. Therapod podcast is about breaking down what we've learned and what we practice as therapists into easy to understand and accessible information.  We know that parenting and caring for a child, especially one that has additional needs, can be challenging, if not overwhelming. We are here to break it down for you. 

We're a group of experienced clinicians, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, psychologists, and pediatricians, and we will be chatting with parents, teachers, and other professionals working with children. We will also be reviewing books, toys, and equipment so you can make informed decisions. 



Our information is not clinical advice. These are useful insights and information. So please seek professional help if you need it. 

 Hi, I'm Jay.  I'm a pediatrician. Today, I'll be talking to Banu about occupational therapy.  Banu Balaji is an experienced occupational therapist and now turned entrepreneur and CEO. She began her career in adult mental health and then moved into child and adolescent mental health within the HSE.

She has worked in both community and inpatient services. She is currently in private practice with a special interest in developmental trauma and children in care.  Banu also runs parent and teacher training workshops focusing on regulation and sensory processing. She is passionate about helping adults supporting the child they're caring for so that they can feel confident in their caring role.



 Hi Banu. , would you like to tell everyone a little bit about what is occupational therapy and a little, little bit about what you do?

Hi, Jay.  , occupational therapists are allied health professionals. So, um, kind of in the same category as speech therapists, um, uh, psychologists and all the other allied health. Um, and what we do is, um, really help people to, um, live an independent life.

That's kind of the occupational therapist main goal. What we want to see is that they're able to overcome any illness, injury, impairment, or disability, and get to a place where they are able to do the things they want to do, and to do them well, and kind of striving towards independence. And When you talk about occupational therapy, because it's such a, it's so broad, like an occupational therapist can work with children, they can work with, you know, even in NICU, there's occupational therapists there in neonatal  ICUs.

Then there's occupational therapists working in orthopedics and neurology and, uh, long term aging care. Um, hospices, there's, you know, the, the, as many medical, um, branches are there, occupational therapists work there.  And just with regards to, um, specifically with, uh, for parents to think about, okay, these are the, some of the symptoms I'm noticing in my child, and maybe a occupational therapist might be useful in helping me work that out.

So watch with some of the. Uh, what would you think would be some, or what would be some of the referral questions that you might actually receive on a day to day basis?   As I was saying, because we're striving towards independence and to, uh, doing when a query comes in with a child who isn't able to Manage in the environments that they shouldn't manage.

And so it could be a school environment, their home with their peers. It could be things in the routine that they're not able to complete. They're not able to complete self care or what we call activities of daily living.  So those would be indications to go to an occupational therapist to see is there any difficulties in their underlying, um, what we call as performance components, , is there a sensory component or a motor component, or is it psychosocial, what's happening that is Um, uh, uh, that is stopping this child from being the best that they can be.



It might be that maybe the environment that's set up for them isn't the most conducive, but your occupational therapist will be able to tell you that. So some of our goals, even though it is towards independence, it's also about seeing what the child is able, what they're interested in. what their motivation is.

So it's not like you're going to be dragging a horse to the water, but it's to see whether or not it's the right fit that occupation is the right fit.  Occupational therapy uses occupation as its core and not just its core goal, but also it's our medium of therapy. So we use occupation, we use activities, meaningful activities to bring about Um, change and bring about adaptation and bring about that skill development. 

That that's really interesting. I liked the way you explained it because even for myself working alongside, I think I have such a clearer picture now by the way you described it. So thanks. That was even useful for myself. And I thought just, you know, you mentioned about environments and I think that's really, really important, especially when we're thinking about, you know, our young children and then they kind of, you know, quite young going to school, kind of, um, school like environments, and we see a lot of young children.

Do well at home, and then they struggle within school, and then they, then you might, you know, get a consideration for a diagnosis like ADHD or sensory, uh, uh, processing disorder, etc. And I'm just thinking it's really interesting, you know, evaluating, you know, what's that environmental impact and, and as you said, you know, you know, maybe just explaining a little bit about even how important it is about the environment. 

Environment would be one of the three pillars that an occupational therapist would consider. So there's person  that is that person's own ability and their motivation and all their intrinsic qualities. And then there's the environment, which could be biological, psychosocial. Um, physical environment, all of that.

And then occupation is what the task demands of them. And this is a lovely, and I love explaining this model to parents. It's called the PEO model, because what  I encourage parents to look at is  from all those pieces, the person, the environment, and the occupation. Where is the smallest change you can make to make the biggest impact?

So for example, if you have a wheelchair user and there's no ramps in the building, , you know, are we going to put that person, uh, through the torture of learning how to get up the stairs and to get into the house? Or is it a better idea to look at how the environment is 

um, is, is being disabling for that person.  Um, you know, maybe putting ramps in, in the long term is the best  idea. Um,  because putting all our energy into getting that person to walk is not,  might be something that they might never be able to do or have, um, uh, it, it might take a lot of time for them to do, but what do we need to do is to get that person into the building  or, um, the occupation side of it is, does that person need to go into that building at all? 

That's a good point. You know, it doesn't need to happen. And it's a really good way to think about it because when we look at children and we. Like  the goal might be we want our child to sit down and listen to teacher and write down what the teacher is saying and really need to think about is that really a necessary goal for that child?

Is that the right goal?  Um, that's very profound. You know, just even you saying that really strikes me as it's something I don't even know if I've even considered, you know, because it's such a, um, There's such an expectation. And often I, um, you know, there's such a focus on, you know, level of functioning and, and, and your ability and, and achievement.

And I just think that, you know, I once read this, like this little saying thing, do not focus on, you know, what school results are. An artist doesn't have to be good at maths. Or, you know, a mathematician doesn't have to be good at it at all. So I'm just, so just what you're describing is so profound, you know, in that way that, you know, that does this child even need to go into that environment and just even thinking about some of our children with sensory issues and  possibly, you know, issues on the spectrum, you know, just thinking about forcing them into a 25, 30 person class.



 

That, that makes, you know, that makes so much, um, of sense, really, what you're saying, and it's really something to think about, really.  Um, I suppose, you know, this is probably another question that you get. all the time, you know, thinking about the waitlists and thinking about the number of children that are waiting to access services.

And just maybe telling us a little bit about your experience within the Irish healthcare system.  What  is that like? That's a big, loaded question. Yeah.  The waitlists are something that, um, I know it's very stressful for parents, but  what I would like people to understand is it's also, stressful for therapists, because that is one thing that burned me out very, very quickly, just thinking about how many people I haven't seen and the guilt that that I carried with me, and having to spread myself very thinly.

Now, in Ireland, there is private, um, services available, but I understand that that's also thin on the ground, and it is expensive for parents. Um,  The wonderful thing is when you do get seen by a system, whether it's early intervention or whether it's, um, the CD& T team or, um, the CAMS team, once you're in and you're engaged with a professional, things can really, really take a turn. 

And what people need to understand is a lot of the work that needs to be done  needs to be done in the home and school environment, which is the child's natural environment.  People think that by having, um, any number of clinical sessions, they will change the child's presentation, their behavior, their, um, abilities.

It's not true. It is work in progress. It's every day. It's the little things that  That can happen every day for that child. For example, um, you know, um, getting your child to butter their own toast. It's just a small goal. It's really, really small that you can do, you know, every morning or just every weekend when you're not in a hurry, but that improves your bilateral coordination.

Um, so it's the little strategies that you can use. that make the most impact. And it's also really , good to think about what goal do you want to meet for your child? Do you want them to be independent and getting dressed? Do you want them to be independent and getting their breakfast ready? Do you want them to be, um,  uh, comfortable in an environment that they have to go into?

Maybe it's a new childminder.  A childcare facility. Um, but that's going to be a long term thing. Like this is how it's going to be is. So it's about working towards goal and really, really small steps,  rather than thinking, okay, six sessions with an occupational therapist or six sessions with a psychologist is going to change  all of it.

There's really no magic wand.  And that's so interesting because I often get the question of, um, my child been attending your service for X amount of time, and they haven't received any individual therapy. And I think that's so important to know that within, you know, the, you know, thinking about The specific needs of a child and adolescent and how that's different from an adult when you're thinking about that individualized therapy.

But just what you're describing is that, you know, working in the natural environment, that maybe one to one therapy may not necessarily be the ticket. So what do you think about kind of those?  Um, it is very useful to have very targeted goals. Yes, but  goals are collaborative. It's made with the parent more than with the child because the parent is their carer.

So as the child is, you know, as they get older, if they're at an age where they can be involved in the gold and be collaborative in the goals. Yes, we do engage them in that goal setting process. But when they're younger, it is very parental goals. So who knows the child best? Yeah.  is the parent. You know them, you see them day in and day out.

When they come into clinic, we don't see all of that.  We don't see things like, um, the morning routine when things are really hard. Um, you know, maybe your child isn't ready to get up in the morning for maybe sensory reasons, or they're very disorganized and hasn't been able to get dressed. But it's the person who sees that is the parent and the person who's setting the goal is the parent. 

Um,  and when you go to a therapist, an occupational therapist, you're probably given a big document, which is 10, 15 pages long with the recommendations, you know, work on core strength, work on bilateral coordination, work, work on sensory, work on any number of things.  But the person who needs to start to think about where do I need to start, what do we need to change, is really, really the parent.

And which is led by the child, you know, to see are they ready for that or not.  . I think really important information, even for parents to understand that. That's such a, there's such a huge focus on the parental child as a unit rather than that individualized model, which might be appropriate in some cases, but every case again is individualized as you, you know, as you put it. 





So even if people were getting group.  Um, contact,  um, which again, group groups have a huge evidence of being really valuable because one thing it doesn't make you feel quite so alone. And the thing is, you do get a chance to meet other parents and other people who have not just similar problems, but they might have solutions to your problems that even the therapist hasn't thought of. 

Right. Um, so if they're getting, if you're getting group interventions.  Go for them because you do get  a wealth of information to help you set the right goals for your child and to progress them. 

So when you're thinking about goal setting and achievement and you have certain expectations, how do you match that with like the developmental age of the child? What do you, how do you go through that process of just working out how to prioritize? The goal setting, um, is based on assessment. So when a child comes into us and we're doing an assessment, so it could be a standardized assessment for, um, you know, DCD that we've done or sensory processing that we've done.

Um, or it could be, uh, an informal assessment to look at, where are they at their functional levels? What are they able to do and what are they able to not do? What is, you know, The parental expectation, what is the other environment expectations like schools, but we take all of that into consideration.  And then when goal setting happens, it happens with the parents if the child is too young.

Um, and it is a little bit of a, um, a negotiation process. So they might say, I need my child to be eating with a knife and fork. And I might say, actually, let's just try the spoon for a while  for a few weeks. Um, or we might even say, actually, if your child is sitting at the table for mealtimes. For the next few weeks, that much goal is enough.

So we,  I suppose goal setting is also about managing expectations. Um, now it might be developmentally appropriate for that child to sit at the table and eat with a knife and fork, but that child mightn't be there yet. So, are we going to ruin entire mealtime and put that child off that, um, experience of having dinner with the family in exchange for working on a goal that is going to be, um, a little bit long term and need to be broken down into steps? 

I would advise the parents no,  um, and we would start with a smaller goal, which might be to sit at the table. Or to use a spoon for a couple of minutes and then maybe they can use your hand. So just really starting small and building from where they are to the next level.  And I think just even listening to you describe that and just those individual stages,  it's also You know, while you are looking at the functional and the doing, it's also about building this young child's confidence. 

You force this child to sit there and for whatever reason, sensitivity or, you know, whatever, you know, reason they have for being unable to sit or not having the attention span to be able to sit at the dinner table and finish that meal.  You know, you could nearly do a bit of harm and inadvertently by forcing this child to sit.

in this fixed position. I think if you kind of look back to the time when, you know, we've quite been working in this service for quite a few years, when the initial interventions for even ASD came out with the ABA, that was very controversial and was very restrictive practice. And obviously we've seen how things have evolved, but just even thinking about,  you know, you may not be, you know, physically restraining a child, but even emotionally restraining a child.

Absolutely.  And the repercussions of that are huge because if that child then starts to refuse to eat at all,  we've gone a good few steps back. Um, and then for the whole experience to be so unpleasant for the family and stressful and as it is, I know parents are stressed. I know parents are overwhelmed, but then to put a cooked meal on the table and then to have this massive screaming match,  is it in the best interest of anybody?

No.  No, so really it's about managing expectations. So while goal setting is collaborative with parents, it's also about managing expectations.  And it's about being child centered rather than,  um, you know, the therapist, you know, it's child centered first, family centered next.,  I love the way you break it all down and the way you describe it.

And I think it's so interesting, even for somebody who doesn't have much experience with occupational therapy, you know, to really, truly, I think you make it, you simplify a very, very complex field, I guess. And I think that talks to your experience, 

I think you really do bring that piece of information.  And I think people do get frustrated when they, they get recommendations, they get the home programs and, and it is frustrating. I can see it.  I can see it in their faces. I can see it in their body language, but the truth is that's what is going to work in terms of function.

And then imagine this, if your child is able to achieve that  small goal, whatever we've said, you feel good, your child feels good. And overall, you have a nice, relaxed child who's feeling confident in themselves. And then we can start to progress on the next if we need to. Um, but it's very difficult to force someone to,  um, do something that they don't want to do for any number of reasons. 

What they can't do.  And, and I think that just even having a little think about, you know, your initial coming back to that environment piece, just even having a think about even not necessarily meal times, maybe after, after dinner, you know, when, when the family's winding down and you have a child with lots of energy who, who needs to run around, who needs to release that probably before bed, or you're having that struggle.

To get into bed, you know what, you know, often I think that would be probably one of the biggest issues because what I've experienced is sleep or sleep initiation being the toughest. So we will definitely do a whole whole podcast on maybe a few, a few episodes on sleep alone. Oh yeah. I just, I was wondering just even just not even looking at interventions and what advice would you give to that frustrated parent who's just, I think what's in it just says, you know, I can't do this anymore.

I can't do this anymore. And I would say if you can't do it anymore, you need to go get some rest somehow. I know it's easier said than done. Um, I, I have been that parent and now my, I don't know, I don't want to say as much neurodiverse  or not, but I have been a parent with no sleep for up until three or four years.

And it is  exhausting that you can't even think  straight. Um,  it is so disabling for the parent.  Why, what I would say is  sleep sometimes, you know, you see, you see issues in sleep, but the issue might not be in the sleep. It might be coming out at that time. So it's really important to explore what's going on through the day as well.

Um, and we'll talk more about sensory processing and sensory, um, strategies, but they work well only if you have them through the day.  Um, and little and often. So you, if you have had a child who's, um,  uh, either stayed, um.  regulated in school because they've had to. They've worked really hard and they've masked and they've really worked very hard to put it together in school and then they come back home and maybe there's lots of activities and then you have a really overtired child who's finding it hard to go to sleep.

Then we need to kind of do lots of steps back to see what's happening from the morning time till the evening time. Are they getting enough sleep?  Um, enough of their sensory regulation taken care of so that they can stay regulated when it comes to sleep time, or you might have a child, and we find this during holidays, um, increased screen time causes, you know, sleep disturbances.

So it's really going into different factors that could be affecting the sleep. And I'm not saying that  they're all the answers. Sometimes you could do everything right, and there's still, you know, Finding it hard to sleep, and I think that's where maybe some advice from you might come in handy.  Um,  but, um, when we look at goals for that child, we need to think of how the family goals also, the family's own, um, routine. 

Is being managed. So maybe that time if there are a few multiple children and there's lots going on, it might be hard for your child to wind down. So is it, is it something that you put into say, actually, after eight o'clock, we're going to have no devices, no loud music, no TV, and we're all going to wind down because that might be helpful.

So it's thinking about strategies that work, not just for the child, but also for the whole family that makes it  makes regulation easier, makes predictability and that routine easier.  It looks like. What you're describing is that if you think back even in our own childhoods, like a lot of what you do in occupational, your strategies would have been so useful.

So not even necessarily having a diagnosis or maybe having a diagnosis or not yet, but just looking at just what you're describing  really what, what it sounds like to me is really having your needs met and you know, you don't need to have a diagnosis for that. You do not need to have a diagnosis. And I think it's my OT training that I brought into my parenting that has made that different, for example, my, my boy, um, couldn't come back home from primary school and do his homework straight away.

He was too wired. So he would wait until eight o'clock, which is bedtime, really, to do his homework.  But once I relaxed into it.  And I said, right, eight o'clock is when you want to do the homework, we'll do it and we'll spend a half an hour and then we'll start bedtime. Things got better because what was the barrier there was my own  , the homework needs to be done this certain time.

Yes.  Not understanding them. Like, like at that time I didn't have as much information or experience around sensory processing, but I didn't really understand, like from a sensory point of view, he just wasn't able to concentrate. Mm-Hmm. or do his homework. Um, and it's breaking down your day and making it predictable, making it, um,  organized that helps that child. 

And that's hard for me because I think I'm dyspraxic, I'm not the most organized and I say to people I work with, especially the, the, the, the young people I work with, like I am not organized, but  that doesn't mean the end of the world that you can get somewhere you can still, there's lots of ways to work around it. 

And I think that's so interesting when you describe that, because if I think about young people, I found in comparison, if I look back, To the day when I was in school and, you know, just looking at how oversubscribed some of the young people have. So they would be finishing school, but there'd be this myriad of after school activities that if I remember back when I was younger, I just had school and that was it.

And I'd come home and do my homework. And that was all I had to do. However, now I see there's this after school, there's this tennis, there's soccer, there's GAA, there's all of those things. And I think if you have a child who's. You know, finding it difficult to process or plan that day, you know, it can be very dysregulating and then coming home  and having real, you know, sleep affectation and unable to focus on. 

Attention, just all that attention focused on just trying to schedule those, those activities.  And, um,  and, and that's, that's for another day for a bigger conversation around activities, but we'll definitely touch on it. But yes, the busyness of the day is, can be overwhelming. And I also think when you go back to when we were growing up after five or six, there was no TV.

There was nothing. Yes, that is true. There was no mobile phones. It was, it was completely cut off. It just happened naturally because there wasn't anything  there to do. And then you got the chance to wind down. And I'm not saying don't have access, don't let your child access anything, but to be really mindful that we, they do need a wind down time when things are quieter, when the lights are dimmer and that, you know, it's more gentler, um, just to go into that circadian rhythm, the biorhythm, isn't it?

 I suppose I might ask one question. Last question, I'd say. Any advice that you'd have for parents that are at the moment just, you know, there's a lot of parents out there sitting, you know, waiting on a waiting list, you know, dealing with a lot of difficulties and just any advice that you have for them with just being able to even manage it.

Their own emotions and managing you know how they feel about a lot of it because a lot of our focus is the child, but I think a lot of the focus is also just, you know, by the time the parents actually gets you.  They're so exhausted with doing the best that they can. So what advice would you give to that person that's been waiting, you know, for ages. 

What I would say to them is take a step back. Um, and I'm going to put up a video on this person environment and occupational model. The reason I'm going to do that is very important to think about whatever you're wanting for your child, what your goals are, are they realistic or can we achieve them in a different way?

Um, because,  you know, as I was talking about, some goals  might be too high up there for your child to get there, but that doesn't mean that they're never going to get there. Okay. Bye. Or that they're never going to be able to complete that task. Um, and the best example I can give, if your child has a lot of difficulties tying shoelaces.

But you have other things to work on. You know, you have the self regulation, you have the sleep, you have the food. So, I'd say throw  the laces out the window, get the Velcro and make your life easier. So, take a step back and think, what will make my life easier here? What kind of expectations do I need to pull back on? 

Um, I remember one of my friends saying, actually, my kids are having cereal for dinner today and I, you know, for a few seconds, I was like, you can't do that. And then I was thinking, yeah, why can't you do that? You have to feed them something. It's a balanced enough meal. They've eaten.  Why not? Yeah, no, that's a really, you know, valid point about just the expectation, not what you put on a child, but also what you put on yourself and society puts on you, because there's a lot of judgment, um, you know, in particular about parenting style, that I don't think any parent If looked upon by another would be correct, you know, and I think there's a lot of that pressure and that guilt and a lot of that comes out in your parenting style inadvertently.

And just, you know, and, and I think it's a lot for us to hold if you got, you know, a nine to five job and you have all these other additional needs and you have to actually just manage everything. It's, it's really high expectations. for these high expectations. And I think sometimes social media drives some of those high expectations.

Oh, I'm feeding my kids organic. I'm feeding them this and I'm doing that. Actually  when COVID came around, it was one of the best things that has happened to a lot of families because. So much of those expectations were pared back, starting right from getting to school at a certain time, having to do homework, having to deal with the school system, you know, the number of activities they were engaged in, the pressure, when the pressure came off, actually, a lot of kids did thrive  from Um, Pulling back on the pressure and I think there's learning there not saying that's the ideal scenario, but there's learning there We need to see what pressure are we putting not just on the child but ourselves  And I suppose one question that I have coming up and that I do observe a lot in is You know, there's a lot of expectation on parents to really plan their child's Of time or the weekends, you know, there's a lot of play dates and there's a lot of organizing of activities,  you know, is that you is that useful or what would you say?

Because I suppose if I think about my childhood, you know, I just had to kind of figure it out a lot of it myself. Yes. There's a real high pressure on parents to actually map out every piece of the day for their child.  Um, there's, there's pros and cons and it's, again, we need to look at a child centered approach.

Is this working for your child  or is it something that you're doing for the sake of it? Um, if you lived in the middle of nowhere and maybe you did want your child to have more social connections and your child is seeking it as well, yes, 100 percent schedule a few things in. And I think the trouble comes in when you have multiple children and you have to do different things.

And I, you know, I would be a taxi driver here as well, you know, dropping and picking up. But then it's really driven by what my child wants, but also what they're able for. So at some stage you have to say, actually, we've done too much this weekend and we can't, you know, we've done AB, we can't do the C because. 

That's too much. Yeah. Um, and even for yourself, that might be too much, uh, not just for the child. So it's kind of making sure that you have the balance  of meeting your child's needs in a way that, you know, is practical, realistic, and doable within your own ability and your capacity. Because if you've had a 40 hour week.

Monday to Friday, and then you need to be driving people around.  Is that good for your co regulation?  Um, but for the, for that co regulation between you and your child.  Yeah. And I suppose one last question,  you know, the, um, this kind of, I suppose we could dedicate a few podcasts to, you know, just what is the value of just allowing a child to be bored?

Do you have to always be the one responsible to prepare things for your child? A hundred percent, let them be bored.  100 percent let them to be bored and um, let them whine about it and whinge about it, let them complain, it's okay to be  not happy with it, but actually you find that after a while they do find things to do.

And  I, uh, and I can see parents, I can already hear parents of children with neurodiversity coming back and saying that doesn't work for my child. And yes, that could be true. Maybe your child has, you know, um, is, um,  does need more of a routine where they know what's going on, but they can also know that this time space, there's nothing there.

So you can plan for boredom too.  boredom is good. Lack of stimulation is good. It does help your brain wind down. It does help it kind of refocus on the things kind of like a little bit like sleep. You know, the way sleep helps your brain to pare back all the unwanted.  You helped me here, Jay. You know this better.

It helps to process all the information of the day. Exactly. Um, so for a child who is neurodiverse, who has probably, um, who might have autism or traits of it, and they need a very structured routine, they need to know exactly what they're doing, and you need to be  very, very rigid. You can schedule off time there. 

You don't have to fill it in with things that you're doing for your child. Um, and it is a little bit of trial and error, so you mightn't. Be able to say, right, we're going to spend a whole hour doing nothing. Actually, for two minutes, we're going to do nothing and start there.  I think that was so useful. I think I learned a lot about what you say, even with use utilize on strategies for myself.

. But absolutely, I could use a lot of that in my personal life as well. So thank you. It was lovely to have this conversation with you. Thank you, Jay. Um, we'll be talking more about all these issues  . And before we finish, it's always good to hold in mind that if there's something that has resonated with you and that it's staying with you, or maybe leading to a big feeling that you want to talk about, contact your GP, who's your first port of call.

And don't be afraid to reach out to family and friends to have a chat. Follow us on your favorite podcast platforms for updates. We also do book reviews on Instagram. So make sure to follow us on theropod. podcast  for Instagram. If you have any topics or queries you'd like us to address, email  theropodpodcast at gmail.

com. That's T H E R A P O D P O D C A S T at gmail. com or DM on Instagram. Bye.