Boundaries and Balance with Cherlette McCullough

In this must-listen episode, we get into the world of boundaries with Cherlette McCullough LMFT, a relationship therapist, author, and advocate specializing in helping women and couples take care of themselves emotionally and mentally. Cherlette shares her expertise on why setting boundaries is crucial for our well-being and how to navigate the challenges that come with asserting our needs, especially as women. She emphasizes the importance of self-connection, emotional awareness, and the power of saying "no" without guilt or shame.

Join us as we explore the intricacies of boundary-setting, from identifying your core values and personal preferences to effectively communicating your limits in various relationships. Cherlette provides practical tips and real-life examples to help you build the emotional muscle needed to advocate for yourself and maintain healthy, reciprocal connections.

Episode Highlights:
[2:03] - Defining boundaries and their importance in relationships.
[5:42] - The power of saying "no" as an act of self-care.
[9:22] - Recognizing when a boundary needs to be set.
[13:18] - Navigating the fear of risking relationships when setting boundaries.
[18:15] - Cherlette shares her personal struggles with codependency.
[21:19] - The need for flexibility in boundaries.
[25:02] - Cherlette's process for creating and enforcing boundaries.
[29:40] - The discomfort of boundary-setting and acknowledging emotions.
[33:19] - Building the emotional muscle of boundary-setting.
[36:34] - The role of conversation in setting and maintaining boundaries.
[39:47] - Handling boundary violations and determining if a relationship is worth working through.
[42:33] - The connection between having boundaries with yourself and with others.


Resources:
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Transcript

Cherlette McCullough: 0:00

When you think about boundaries, think of it from the perspective of a house. Right? There's a house, what things are what people you would allow on your porch? What people you would allow in your bedroom, what people you would allow in the living room in the kitchen, your back porch, your pool area, your sidewalk in the front side of the house, thinking of where do these people belong in your life? Where would you allow them? How close Would you allow? Those are indicators or a way or a visual that you can use when it's time to set that boundary that you need to use even at work, setting boundaries with start and stopping time.

Laura Bowman: 0:39

So welcome back to another episode of insights from the couch. Show. I'm your host, Laura Bowman with Colette and today we are joined by our guest, Charlotte McCullough. And two we are talking about all things boundaries. What are they? Why do we set them? Why do we need them and why are they so important for our collective sanity? Sure, lad is a relationship therapist, author and advocate. She specializes in helping women and couples take care of themselves emotionally and mentally. She is in a private practice and is the owner of centrepiece couples and family therapy in Winter Park, Florida. Welcome. We're so happy to have you and be having this conversation.

Cherlette McCullough: 1:25

Thank you for having me today. I'm excited to be here. You know, this is a topic that we all need more. I mean, in all stages of life, this is one of those things where we constantly need maintenance on right. Yeah. A while. Yes. Done. It's ongoing. Yeah. So thank you for having me here today.

Laura Bowman: 1:44

So let's just get into it. Like, I know, this has become like a lightning rod term in our culture a little bit. Some people hate this word. It's like, you know, it's like gaslighting. It's like another one of these like, boundaries. It's like stop it. Do you have some like little, you know, pet way you need to be taken care of. But like, let's define like, what is a boundary.

Cherlette McCullough: 2:04

So I think when we talk about boundaries, the reason why it's sometimes it's so hard to talk about it, because it's effort on our part, something that we have to look inside and develop come up with and enforce it, right. So when we talk about boundaries, I like to look at them as ways of or rules of engagement, right? How we want to show up in the relationship and how we want others to show up for us in the relationship. So I don't like to look at it as fences or like big walls that we have. But just these are the rules of engagement. This is how we're going to communicate, and this is how we're going to treat each other. You know, this is how we're going to show up for each other. This is my expectation for the relationship that we share with one another, you know, so when we talk about boundaries, from that perspective, it makes it easier for us to digest, I think, especially for a strong, high functioning type A ambitious women when we talk about boundaries. Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 3:06

yeah. And I think there's like this piece of it's like people should know, your boundary, like that. People should just know that having to say it explicitly, is almost, you know, like an affront to us that we have to go to that level. But we do we have to be comfortable just getting vulnerable and saying what these rules of engagement actually are. And you know what,

Cherlette McCullough: 3:27

Laura, when when we think about boundaries, I like to think of it from these three areas. One is an invitation for connection, not just this thing where I want disconnection and I want put off, but it's an invitation for connection. Also, it creates balance. Because one of the things that keeps us angry in relationships, when we start feeling like the relationship is not reciprocal. But when we do have these boundaries, and they're clear, it helps us have that balance in the relationship. And the other thing that comes to mind, how do we shape our boundaries? Right? So I'm sure we're gonna talk about how to create a boundary, but how do we shape our boundaries? Where does that come from? What is the motivation behind creating that boundary? And then why do we need these boundaries? One, I think the way we shape them is our core values. What are those things that are very important to us? What are those things that are important to us in relationships? Another one that helps shapes our boundaries is past hurts and past traumas, especially when we're talking about in relationships as it is to affection and things like sexual touching or things like, you know, foreplay and things like that, you know, it's important to have boundaries in those areas as well. And then the last one is personal preference. What is my preference? I'm not being picky. I'm not being me. But some of this is just my preference. You know, I prefer to talk more in the afternoon if you want me to pick the phone up I have to do that in an afternoon, I can't pick the phone up in the mornings, I can text you, you know, but in some relationships is required, pick up the phone, when I call you, I want you to pick up, I can't in the morning because I have other competing priorities going on. So just lightly. That's one of those things, I think it's important that we have to be mindful love to when we talk about boundaries. Excellent

Colette Fehr: 5:21

points. And I just wanted to say, you know, what strikes me as you're talking, is that at the core of all of this has to be the ability and willingness to say no, even when we're inviting connection, there is an implicit know in some of this, yeah. Yeah. Can you speak on that a little bit? And how hard that is for women?

Cherlette McCullough: 5:42

I think when we think of the word no, Colette, it's almost like rejection, some of us look at that know, as a rejection or resistance in the relationship. But when we look at the motivation behind our know, it goes into that self compassion, that self care area, where hey, I may have the capability, but I don't have the capacity today to do that. And knowing that for myself, you know, allows me to say that know, with confidence, I'm not being me. I'm not being selfish. I'm not saying that you're not worthy of what you're asking me for. What I am saying is, I can't give that to you at this point and honor myself and everything that I have gone on. So at this point, it's a no, yes, it's about

Colette Fehr: 6:27

honoring yourself. No is not mean. No, is not a disconnection, no, is just about honoring yourself and really being in touch with your own genuine limitations and willingness, right? What serves you? Absolutely.

Cherlette McCullough: 6:44

We want to show up as our best selves, sometimes we don't get to do that. But the goal is to always show up as your best self and sometimes that No, help you do that. And it's okay to say no, whether that's with your family, whether that's with your employees, whether that's with your contracted employees, whether that's with your spouse, whether it's with your children, or your adult children, it's okay to say no, and it's not coming from a place of meanness, or a place of disconnection. Or I don't want to give you what you're asking for, or sometimes people try to make us feel like it's retaliation. But no, it's a no, I cannot do it. And, you know, I think sometimes as women, we wait until we get to that place Colette, where we're mentally exhausted, or we're just at our capacity, then we use that as the motivation to say no, but I think podcasts like this, and conversations like this help women like all of us normalize saying no, when we're at our capacity, it's Oh, yes. We don't have to wait until we're exhausted or we're angry and use that as the motivation to say no, because the person you're in relationship with feels that they have learning spirits and insight, just like you do, they can feel when you're saying no out of retaliation, or you're angry or exhausted, right, or you've gone

Colette Fehr: 8:09

way past the tipping point. And then it comes out in a way that's not necessarily ideal, or sets off the partners alarm bells, instead of really just standing firmly and calmly, in a no, you know, I can't or won't, without having to over explain yourself.

Laura Bowman: 8:27

But I'm channeling like our our listener right now. And I know moments that I've gotten into where it's like you you want if you're not firm, that no, you're not firm, and you're comfortable with setting boundaries. Women do this thing where it's like, something's asked us, and we just are like, oh, yeah, uh huh. And then they like, we do this like delay tactic. We're like, I can't believe they're asking me for this. And then by the time we set a boundary, it's usually because we're so resentful, and so angry that we finally like, Screw ourselves up to do it. But the attempt to be nice in the beginning, and like, ah, ah, so it's really like, getting practiced at like setting being like knowing our own boundaries, and like being ready for it

Colette Fehr: 9:17

earlier.

Laura Bowman: 9:17

Yeah, really, you have to fail at this. I feel like a bunch of times before it. That's good.

Cherlette McCullough: 9:23

That's a good point, Laura. And you know what it made me think about if you're in that situation, right? And you feel that resentment after you've said yes, or someone has pulled you into something that is an indicator that there needs to be a boundary for those that are listening, and it's like, how do I set boundaries? Why should I even set it if you are feeling that when you're asked to do something, and it's like, oh, God, why I say it? Yes. Or I am tired. I shouldn't have. That's an indicator right there is time to set a boundary. When I am tired. When someone asked me something. Let me wait. Wait 24 hours, two hours if you need it before I answer verses, I need the answer right away because they need an answer right right away. You need some time to think about it, and then give that answer. But so many of us are so ambitious, to please others. So many of us are so ambitious to just get this one thing off my checklist, we'll just answer and then when we think about it, it comes across as this resentment of like, Oh, God, why did I do that? That lets us know in that moment, that's an indicator of a boundary need to be set right there?

Colette Fehr: 10:36

Well, it's so interesting, because what comes up for me is that I have, like everyone, some internalized shoulds, that part of me does not subscribe to at all. You know, as therapists, we're all trained to know that shoulds can be lies, right? They're the voice of society or earlier caregivers and our conditioning, and that we have to really at least hold those shoulds with curiosity, and challenge them and figure out which ones serve us and which don't. But I recently had someone reach out to me, who is a friend, a new friend, going through a very difficult time, and wanted to talk. And right now I'm kind of pretty much shut down to working on my book, I really don't have a lot of free time. And it was at a point in my book work that I really couldn't talk. And I said no, that I was sorry that I could not chat about what she's going through. And it was a real internal poll, because I felt that if I said yes to talking to her, which a part of me thought was the right thing. And that I was not being a good friend or a good person if I didn't make my self available to listen to her. Talk about her hard situation, right, and be there for her. But then I also felt that I would be sacrificing something that really wasn't okay for me. And so I said, No. And I said, you know, when I come up for air, I'm happy to talk. But right now, I just don't have the time. And that was tough to sit with not knowing I know, it's not my responsibility to manage how it lands. And that it's okay for me to say no, but even when you know that intellectually, it can be so difficult. Even as the therapist who's worked on this for a long time. Does I don't know if that makes sense to you guys. Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 12:26

no, it totally does

Cherlette McCullough: 12:27

a lot of sense. Because I would have internalized it too. I mean, I would have thought about capability and capacity, right? I just, I'm capable of doing but just to have the capacity because my book, and I have all this, I'm on a strict timeline, I have this stuff to do. I do care about you, I want the best for you, you know, all of those things. But now how do I find balancing this with one of these right now is the priority and not saying she's not important, but I have this that I have to get done? You know, and I would have internalized that too. For a minute. And Mike Oh, my God. No, why did I just not show up as a friend? Okay, is this gonna cost us our friendship? Is she gonna think like, I'm just not I don't care about what she has going on. And

Laura Bowman: 13:12

but it made me right. It may. I mean, that's the thing is like, women are not that comfortable risking relationship.

Cherlette McCullough: 13:18

It's true or not at some point. Now, Lord, that's a whole different podcast. Right?

Laura Bowman: 13:22

Hmm. Yeah, that's what I would feel like, I know, in that situation, I would have felt really pulled and I know you've got a ton going on. But, you know, I probably did feel

Colette Fehr: 13:32

Yes. But I have already had said yes, multiple times, in ways that felt like it was taking more than I have to give right now. And, you know, I think you also had to evaluate the friendship, the history of the friendship, you know, this isn't a super close friend. It's a new friend who I really liked. But it's not someone I know that well. If it were my sister, you know, in the throes of crisis, maybe my answer would have been different. But at the end of the day, what I came back to is exactly what you're saying, Laura, you know what, because it's a new friendship. This may cost me my friendship, what if she's offended, but also I'm not a vending machine of validation and support. And, you know, it's okay for me to say, I'm not able to talk right now. And I said exactly what you're saying, Charlotte, I care about you. I'm sending you love and support. I checked on her a week later by text. I just said I'm underwater right now. I'm behind my own self imposed deadlines, and I'm just overwhelmed. I'm so sorry. But I don't have time. But you know, deep inside, I don't owe anyone anything. And

Cherlette McCullough: 14:44

you know what, it is not about putting her last and putting you first. It's not that but I think sometimes when we are put in these situations, the struggle comes in when we try to think in order like did I just put her Are last and make myself priority. Yeah, I do. Right.

Colette Fehr: 15:05

But I am Who else is taking care of me but me? Yeah.

Cherlette McCullough: 15:09

And then what's supposed to happen with the responsibilities that you have? Right? Right?

Laura Bowman: 15:15

I actually think this is such a great thing. If you can tolerate this kind of awkward process, it makes you so much safer. Because I know like, I've been friends with Colette for a long time, I know that if I ask her, she's going to tell me, she's going to tell me the truth. And I feel very safe with her. If she doesn't have time for me, I'm going to know. But it also gives me permission to do the same thing in my life. Yeah, so then now I'm not in like, held hostage in this loop of like, Oh, I gotta care about her. I gotta care about everything and put myself behind her. Because she always says that for me. And, you know, it's like a very safe relationship when people have boundaries. Yep.

Colette Fehr: 15:51

Yes, it gives you permission to also have your own? Absolutely, or feel safer and easier to have your own? Yes. But

Cherlette McCullough: 16:02

I think that's where it goes back to what we said earlier of how you want to show up in a relationship, and how you want someone else to show up for you. So let's say the roles were reversed, because you honor boundaries, polet, right? If that was a situation where it was the reverse, and you reached out to her and she told you that because you respect boundaries, and because you understand boundaries, and because you have your own boundaries, that wouldn't cause a rift in the relationship ever. You would think like, oh, she just don't have she's just telling me that she's busy. Oh, she'll have you know, she just she don't care about what I have. Like she's so selfish. It allows you to understand like, you know what, at this moment that she doesn't, and I honor what she has gone on, I have to get what I need my needs met somewhere else when we have these fallouts because someone is implementing their boundaries. We have to look inward and find out what need am I not getting met? It's not about this person is just not there for me or they're being mean. Or they're just not wanting to be the what need is it that I need met in this moment. You know what, I need a person that is rational, that's unbiased that I can talk to Okay, I can't get it and Colette right now because she's busy and doing her thing. Who do I have next on my list? Do I need to sign up for therapy? Is there someone else in my friendship circle that I can talk to? Not? It's a cut off with Colette because she's working on her book because she's doing this? No, what is the knee? When you feel that feeling of anger or like this person is neglecting me? Ask yourself look inward? What knee? Do I have at this moment that needs to get met? And how do I get their needs met?

Colette Fehr: 17:48

And sometimes maybe can I meet this need for myself? Absolutely.

Cherlette McCullough: 17:53

Absolutely. So

Colette Fehr: 17:55

Charlotte, I wonder as we're talking about this, I'm God. You know, we could talk all day about this because there's so much to it, especially for women. Is this something you've ever struggled with personally? And, you know, how have you evolved in terms of your own boundaries as a therapist and as a woman at midlife? Absolutely.

Cherlette McCullough: 18:16

Boundaries? Oh my gosh, yes. Because, you know, just self disclosure. Colette, I struggle with codependency, you know, I love to say that I'm a recovering, codependent woman, right. You know, when you're in cover, and recovery, things can come back up, you know, and then that's why we have the tools that we have, and we build this confidence. So we recognize these signs, and then we work on those tools that we have to work with it. But of course, I struggle with it, especially when it comes to balancing life marriage, stepmom, as well as an entrepreneur, you know, so having those boundaries of how much do I give to my household? And how much do I give to my business, you know, and then I can justify it, the struggle that I have sometimes like, oh, I can justify it, because this is for the business. And it's gonna definitely, in turn, help the household so I can neglect my stepchildren and I can neglect my husband because you know what I'm out, you know, really working for the family. But when I had a major loss in 2020, it made me really look at my life, and how I was living my life, and where I was giving all of my time where I was giving all of my energy and effort, and I looked at wasn't healthy for me. And what I found out Colette, it wasn't healthy, I was given to my business. Then I was to my household. And when I had to stop because of that grief, the grief was so heavy I had to stop. And during those moments of stopping, I was able to reevaluate my boundaries and reevaluate my life, and really put things in order. Because I think, as a ambitious person, sometimes we can go overboard, and we can justify it, because we do see, you know, gains from it. But not all games are games. And learning that work life balance is not about balance. It's about what's priority. You know, and I, that was a hard one for me learning that because I come from a place in my younger years of you are rewarded for the work that you do. So the harder you work, the more reward you get. Yes. So operating from that mindset, that belief. I felt everything was okay. I didn't feel the exhaustion. I didn't see things going wrong in my house, but I'm working. Good. I'm working. So now I live a life of priority. You know, I put things back in balance. I can't save the world, no matter how passionate I am about what I do. I can't save the world. And that's not my responsibility. So

Laura Bowman: 21:11

boundaries are constantly being flexible and having to be updated. Right? Like they're not static, you don't set and forget these. Absolutely.

Cherlette McCullough: 21:19

Yeah, yeah, you know, and, Lord, that's the point you can't set and forget your boundaries, because then you'll show up as this person that's extremely rigid, when you should have some flexibility. No, in relationships, if there's too much rigidity, you know, psychologically, we're gonna have fractures everywhere. And that's not the goal doesn't work, not to have fractures and all of our relationships, the reason that we want boundaries is so that we have more healthier relationships.

Laura Bowman: 21:48

One of the things I was talking to Colette about is that I find that like it just in clients that I see that they are either really good at kind of one or the other, but not both, that they're either really good in their close, intimate circle setting boundaries, like I feel so close to you that I can tell you what I need. Or they're really good and like, with strangers and at work, and then they're terrible with people they're close with. And I just have found that trend, that we're either good with one or the other, usually, but it takes us time to get good at both, in

Cherlette McCullough: 22:21

helping with that, or helping us balance the two were good at on both ends, is paying attention to how we show up individually. And then how we show up in relationship. Say more about that. Yeah, so how we show up individually, right? How do I show what are my expectations in a relationship? You know, and then once I'm in this relationship, what am I expectations for the relationship? Are they Is it realistic? Or is it too rigid? You know, am I expecting something from you that I don't even give myself? You know, am I expecting you to do things that I shouldn't be doing for myself? am I expecting you to be up here it when you should be just my friend? am I expecting you to be my spouse, when you should just be my career? You know, so how are you showing up? Because in my practice, or I get a lot of women who have these high expectations for their friend, right? And then we start going through and processing and peeling back layers around relationships. And we find fracture here, fracture here, right, you're here, right? You're here, right? You're here, right? So we're here, you know, and they can give me justification for all the fractures. But then when we go back to the knee, and the expectations is just not realistic,

Colette Fehr: 23:45

you're saying with these fractures, that a lot of times there are unmet needs, that women are not really zooming in on, and then they have all these, you know, fractured relationships in their past and that unmet need is really never getting a dress. So they're kind of continuing to perpetuate a pattern where they set themselves up for disappointment.

Laura Bowman: 24:06

Absolutely. Yeah. It goes back to meeting some of these needs ourselves. And

Cherlette McCullough: 24:12

to get here are your knees when we talking about boundaries, right? We can't just go out here and just like, I'm going to set a boundary, what is the boundary that you're setting? What's the lie behind? Setting that boundary? And then when you set that boundary? How are you going to deliver that message to who you have that boundary with? Right? And then when they violate that boundary? How are you going to let them know they violate it? And what is the consequence? Or how are you going to enforce the boundary? So

Colette Fehr: 24:42

let's talk about that a little bit, how you help your clients learn to and maybe some takeaways for our listener because I always like to say people, you know, boundaries are not demands, right? And so talk a little bit about how you approach this with your clients and your own life, your process. for creating boundaries and holding them, usually,

Cherlette McCullough: 25:04

when I feel that tug, you know that tug in your chest, or I feel angry or frustrated. That's when I know that's an indicator for me like, Okay, I need to set a boundary with this, maybe I'm going overboard, maybe I'm allowing them to ask too much for me, maybe I have given an impression that I can show up in this way, and I can't. So let me set this boundary. Here. I like to say when you think about boundaries, think of it from the perspective of a house, right there the house, what things are what people you would allow on your porch, what people you would allow in your bedroom, what people you would allow in the living room in the kitchen, your back porch, your pool area, your sidewalk in the front side of the house, thinking of where do these people belong in your life? Where would you allow them? How close Would you allow them, those are indicators or a way or a visual that you can use when it's time to set that boundary that you need to use even at work, setting boundaries with start and stopping times. Right? Setting those things will work with those people who know that you are a single person with no children. So they want to give you all of the work that's due later in the day, or they expect you to be the person to open the building up in the morning or the person to stay late at night. So if that is something that frustrates you are you're feeling like this is not reciprocal that this is imbalanced or this don't feel right, those are indicators that there needs to be a boundary set. So

Colette Fehr: 26:39

really paying attention to your own system, when it alerts you that something maybe needs to be tweaked. And then considering the boundaries for different levels of intimacy, right, who I let in my bedroom may be different than who I allow on my front porch. And I would certainly imagine so. So just out of curiosity, like the work situation, you know, putting this into the practical, let's say, you are feeling taken advantage of as a single person with no kids, and you want to set a boundary, how might you say that at work,

Cherlette McCullough: 27:12

I would start with getting real clear about what it is that I don't like about this right? I would write it out, you know, as best as I could, just writing that. And initially, what I tell my clients is write it out as ugly, as you can write it, I mean, use all the explicit words, everything that you just say what

Colette Fehr: 27:31

you want to say, and

Laura Bowman: 27:32

how you really want it, then

Cherlette McCullough: 27:35

get it out, and then clean it up from there. And then if you do have that capability, where you can talk to your supervisors or your team lead, talking to them about it, and from their respectful place, while in the chain of command at work, all of that stuff. But giving that message of I would like some days where, you know, out of seven days, I have been a person that opened and closed the building, I would like to know if there is room for me to be able to share this responsibility with someone where I can do three or four days, and someone else take the other days, you know, my days in the morning, I have these things that are important to me, are these things in the evening. So we can just, you know, I'm able to do those things. So making that fair request. And you know, like we'd say this in law, you say we say this a lot when we're talking about anger management, or balancing your emotions, but making that that ability to make that fair request, you know, and allowing them to have that feedback and ask questions about this fair request that you are making. Right?

Colette Fehr: 28:37

And it's really about advocating for yourself and understanding that you may put a request out and you may not get what you ideally want or need. And then you have choices about that informs what you'll do next, like at work, if I ask for three or four days, and I'm told no, you know, maybe I need the money. And I make a decision a conscious decision that I don't like this. But right now I'm choosing from a place of power and agency to stay in this job because I gotta pay my bills. But maybe I'm gonna look for a new job three months from now when I have a little more free time. Right? So you you make choices. And same thing with relationships. You know, if you put it out there, and you let someone know, hey, this is an essential need for me. And if it can't be met, you're not threatening, but to say, you know, I may not be able to stay in this relationship. You're just letting somebody know where you stand and they're going to do what they're going to do. But you're giving them that clear information. And

Cherlette McCullough: 29:40

I would say to add to that when you have these difficult conversations that you must have, be mindful of what you're feeling in your body. Be mindful of that. Don't ignore it. Don't just push it to the side it really acknowledge it. What you are feeling if you're feeling frustration acknowledge that, if you're feeling embarrassed because you have to have this conversation, it's okay to acknowledge that. And I think that's one of the things when it comes to boundaries. Women, a lot of times we forget to check in to what we are feeling. And that's what sometimes I think makes it difficult for us to set that boundary because a lot of us are so disconnected from ourselves when it comes to our emotions. So we have this thing that we do pushing through. And we all know that buildings are like a beach ball, right? And emotions, you push them down, you push a beach ball down and water, what are you gonna do her backup?

Laura Bowman: 30:38

Yep. Right. But I'm imagining women, like just not being able to tolerate like, embarrassment is just one of my least favorite feelings. So it's like when some of these feelings creep in, it's like, that self connection. It's like, oh, my god, yeah, I'm just gonna do whatever they want to do. Because this feels terrible. Right? So it's like, such a big part of it is being able to sit with your own feelings around it. You're just like, we're saying with like safety, that we become safer when we have boundaries. Like, you're gonna get more respect. Yeah, I like putting it doesn't matter what they say back. It's the very act of advocating for yourself, that begins to teach people around you of like, Oh, they're gonna they're just not going to put up with this. Yes. So it's like you said, shaping this gradual, like, I'm going to continue to advocate for myself. Yes. And it's access

Cherlette McCullough: 31:32

level goes down to Laura, I mean, yeah, your show up, it's totally different from there, you know, you move away from showing up and the relationship is is anxious person, and this person is on edge to this more calm person who can make these rational decisions, who's paying attention to what's being said, and what's being asked. Yeah, that

Colette Fehr: 31:55

is such an important point. Because when you're connected to yourself, and you're paying attention, what shows up in your body is going to help inform you. And then I think it's really important to say what I always say to clients, and I'm writing about a little bit in my book, too, is that, you know, this is something that does feel uncomfortable at first for anyone who's not used to doing it, but it's a muscle, it's an emotional muscle that gets built with time. And the more you do the uncomfortable thing, and see that you've survived it, and see that it's okay to disappoint people. Because if you do have boundaries, you will disappoint people. And you will learn that you can survive that. And it feels okay, and more and more digestible in your body. And then it becomes easier and easier. I still have the part that pops up that goes, Oh, be nice. But then I used to be a total people pleaser, who was resentful and would get fed up with people and eventually tell them to take a hike when they never saw it coming. You know, now I really try to honor what I can and can't do. And say it tactfully and say it calmly, but also be firm, and then I don't feel such a need to cut off. And I know that if I disappointed someone and they decide to cut me off, you know, so be it.

Cherlette McCullough: 33:20

I'm okay with it. Right? Me too. Because I want the relationship to be reciprocal. not perfect. But I want it to be reciprocal. I want the healthy. I don't want to be in relationships where every time we're together, I'm highly anxious. Or I have to really watch what I say because my resentment or my passive aggressive behaviors may come out. I think

Colette Fehr: 33:48

I don't have boundaries, because I know be passive aggressive in my 20s. And it's a total sign of not having boundaries.

Cherlette McCullough: 33:57

Absolutely. Well, I think my motive behind being passive aggressive was that I want you to know, but I don't want to come out until you do want you to know I'm a little mad, which, right? It's saying

Laura Bowman: 34:08

it without saying I want you to pick up on it and adjust your behavior. But

Colette Fehr: 34:13

I don't want to have to calmly look you in the eye and tell you hey, this is how this feels for me. I'd rather just kind of half size slam the door a little bit louder. tell you I'm fine when I'm not,

Cherlette McCullough: 34:27

but a big toe, Colette and more that goes back to the inability to stand in our emotions, just sit with our emotions, and then the ability to advocate for what it is that we want. I think women sometimes have a lot of shame around saying that embarrassed me when you say that, Oh, I gotta look jealous when you say oh, that really pissed me off when you did that to me. So instead of being able to say that we'll just have these passive aggressive behaviors I'm not happy with it. But you know, and I want you to keep asking me what's wrong because that's letting me know internally you something is wrong.

Laura Bowman: 35:09

Okay, I have no energy for a relationship like that like one of those in a while, but Me neither.

Colette Fehr: 35:14

But I used to do that. And it was more from the fear of the response I would get because I was in a partnership where I would always get a dismissive response. And I didn't have enough confidence in the value of my own needs. To stand firm in the face of that dismissiveness, which I do now, I don't let anything that actually matters go by without at least speaking up for it. And I know that I don't have any expectations for my husband, he's going to respond, how he's going to respond, but I'm going to let him know when something hurts me or makes me angry or isn't okay for me, because that's how I take care of myself as a mature adult. That's my own standard of communication

Cherlette McCullough: 36:01

to add to that color, it helps me continue to show up in this relationship and want to be in this relationship. Exactly.

Laura Bowman: 36:12

Exactly. And this is

Cherlette McCullough: 36:15

said, again, Lord,

Laura Bowman: 36:16

this is a process. I mean, like for people listening like this is maybe something you're at the beginning of, and you just continue to go around the same set of issues, getting a little bit better every time. But I think it's it's so worth putting time here, because all your relationships can get healthier. But

Cherlette McCullough: 36:34

one thing I want to share too, that boundaries, when we talk about boundaries, they require a conversation. They do most often when we set these boundaries for ourselves or with others, they require a conversation and it's not I call it it's not a come to Jesus conversation. Well, we get to sit down, hold hands, talk really low. And you know, we got to talk, no, it's just a regular conversation. But if you want this boundary to read, respected, or even considered, you have to have a conversation about it. And sometimes be open to reevaluating. When it comes to these boundaries, when they're violated, or when there's something done that feels weird against this boundary, having that conversation and having an open mind around that conversation.

Colette Fehr: 37:27

I love that a two way right. Like we're not laying down a gauntlet, we're saying, Hey, this is where I stand. And this is how I'm feeling and tell me what you think about this and your reaction. And let's talk it through. I mean, that's really partnership. And then I also think, you know, sometimes maybe there's a time when something is just so egregious that it crosses a fundamental line. And let's say you're repeatedly having the same conversation about a boundary that's fundamental to you. And the person, whether it's your romantic partner, or a friend or a co worker, just will not does not hear you respect the boundary, whatever it is, then really, it's up to you to determine what the consequences of that will be, and take responsibility for enforcing them. And it doesn't have to be done in an aggressive way. But it does have to be done with some clarity. Absolutely. And

Cherlette McCullough: 38:23

three things when when things go wrong, or when boundaries go wrong. Sometimes they just do go wrong, right? We don't want to just talk about the upset, but when they do go wrong. Understand that the boundary that you set is not a bad boundary, because it was not respected by that person. It doesn't mean that it's a failure, because the other person does not respect it or does not want to talk to you about it, the boundary that you set for yourself, it is valid. And it's okay with just because it's not accepted, or there's not an open conversation invite, you know, accept it, it doesn't mean that it's a failure, it doesn't mean that your boundary is a failure. And then when a boundary is violated, let in more. Oftentimes, as women we like to feel like it's the other person's fault. But when a boundary is violated, stop and think. Did you violate the boundary yourself?

Colette Fehr: 39:28

Did you let someone treat? Yep,

Cherlette McCullough: 39:31

absolutely. Did you invite them to, you know, not hold that boundary? The one that you said, Yeah, helping open to that because sometimes we invite people to not respect our boundaries. What

Laura Bowman: 39:44

does that look like or allow it or just allow it?

Cherlette McCullough: 39:48

We allow it we can set a boundary and then we can the next day go against that same boundary. So let's think about friends who want to borrow money or right so they take time, and they borrow money paid back when they felt like it. And now you've set this boundary where we're not borrowing money from each other. I'm not at a place where I'm comfortable, you know, lending you money for a number of reasons we're not, you know, I just don't feel comfortable doing that anymore. Let's say two months later, they can't pay their daycare bill, the baby's gonna be kicked out of daycare. What do you do, Laura,

Laura Bowman: 40:26

we swoop in, and we pay for it, because we can't let that baby go without daycare. Okay,

Cherlette McCullough: 40:32

we do that. And then let's say two weeks later, they need money for their mortgage or for something else a class that they're paying for, then you want to go back to remember we talked about? What are they gonna say to you? You just let me borrow money from my bank. I paid that right back, you know. So when that boundary is violated, stop and think, did you violate it? Not only them? It's an excellent point. The last one is the one that's probably most difficult thinking about this is the relationship worth working through this violation, you have the authority to end the relationship to it's not required that the relationship stays at that level of relationship. And sometimes we have to recategorize people or sometimes we have to have a true cut off. I'm one of those therapists that believe in

Colette Fehr: 41:28

cut off. Yeah, there's a time and a place. There's a tension. Oh, yeah. So

Cherlette McCullough: 41:33

thinking about those three things, when when it's hot, or when a boundary is violated. Discomfort does not mean that the boundary that you had is not valid. Another one is thinking about who violated the mountain? Did you give an invitation play a role? I like Yeah. And then the third one is the relationship worth working through?

Colette Fehr: 41:52

Those are excellent takeaways.

Laura Bowman: 41:55

Definitely, we have to think about that. I was thinking about this today. Because then we were talking about it is like, as I get older, and I have better boundaries with myself, like I actually have boundaries with myself, I know I'm gonna work out at a certain time I, I know when I'm going to do work, like deeper work. And I have like, my day is very, I have those boundaries, and I've created them with me. And because I have those, I can now have better boundaries with other people. So I think it's like it's a both and like, we're working in relationship, but we're always working with ourselves, and our own emotions, just like we're talking about.

Colette Fehr: 42:34

That's a great note. Yeah, yeah, that's a great note to wrap up on because all things come back to your relationship with yourself. And really being connected to yourself. And you're paying attention to your body, knowing your values, noticing when something doesn't feel right advocating for yourself. And this is all ultimately about self care, true self care, which is not about a spa day, but about honoring yourself and speaking up and showing up for you so that you can show up with others. This is a really good conversation. And I think that we could talk all weekend about boundaries. But it's a great reminder to you know, keep at it, this doesn't have to be perfect. If you're starting out from scratch, you know, just start with awareness. And notice when you said yes, that you don't feel great about later notice when you're over giving and expecting something in return and presenting, you know, just start with awareness. And anything is better than nothing. Yeah, right. We're always a work in progress.

Cherlette McCullough: 43:44

I always say this Colette reminded me of when you just said that. But when you start that from a place of over, giving, and under delivering, that's an indicator to it's time for a boundary with yourself

Colette Fehr: 43:58

are great. I used to do that all the time. And I am done with that.

Cherlette McCullough: 44:05

Me too.

Colette Fehr: 44:06

But you know, all three of us, you know, we're therapists. So we really have had to work through a lot of this just even professionally to get to a place of helping other people. I don't know if I would be so good at boundaries. And I'm still a work in progress if I hadn't become a therapist. So I think that's the hard thing but so worthy for us, women, all of us.

Cherlette McCullough: 44:28

I agree. This is really good. Thank you,

Laura Bowman: 44:31

Charlotte. Thanks for coming.

Colette Fehr: 44:33

You back in the future.

Cherlette McCullough: 44:34

Absolutely. I would love to come back. Maybe our next topic. We can talk about self compassion. What?

Colette Fehr: 44:40

I love that. Season two,

Laura Bowman: 44:42

let's do it. Yes, you self compassion. One of these words that gets like thrown around. I don't think people are completely clear.

Colette Fehr: 44:49

I agree. I agree. And I focused on it a lot in my book. It's so important to change my life and my relationship with myself. So let's do that. Sure. Yeah, that would be

Cherlette McCullough: 44:59

the next up Fear of self compassion is a mighty thing