Breaking Financial “Tacky” Taboos: Women, Money, and Midlife Realities

Today we're breaking through the financial “tacky” taboos into the complex relationship between women and money at midlife. In this episode, we unpack the psychological roots of how women view and handle money, exploring personal stories and societal expectations that shape our financial lives. Join us as we discuss everything from inherited wealth to financial independence and the emotional hurdles that come with managing money.

We candidly share our own journeys with money, the mistakes we've made, and the lessons we've learned (it’s a little cringey). We explore how our backgrounds and experiences have influenced our financial mindsets and what we've done to gain control and confidence in our financial lives. This episode is all about normalizing the conversation around money among women and encouraging everyone to take charge of their financial future.

Episode Highlights:

[0:40] - Different experiences with money based on upbringing and life stages.

[1:44] - Suze Orman and the surprising financial illiteracy among successful women.

[3:06] - Laura's personal money story: Growing up financially uninformed.

[4:30] - Colette's money story: Financial struggles and being forced to face it.

[7:33] - The impact of generational wealth and the psychological development it hampers.

[10:58] – Fear of money and the psychological issues surrounding financial independence.

[14:03] - The role of women as spenders and the pressure to provide for the family.

[17:42] - The antiquated belief that a husband's money is for the household and the wife's money is for personal use.

[20:38] - Men’s struggle with their role as financial providers and its impact on their self-worth.

[23:28] - The rise of financial independence among older women and its effect on marriages.

[25:14] - The importance of women developing a well-rounded relationship with money.

[27:15] - Practical advice on saving, investing, and building financial confidence.

[31:03] - Encouragement to discuss money openly and seek financial education.

Resources:

For a worksheet to guide you to begin your journey to an emotionally healthy relationship with money visit our website insightsfromthecouch.org 

If you have questions please email us at info@insightsfromthecouch.org we would love to hear from you!

If today's discussion resonated with you or sparked curiosity, please rate, follow, and share "Insights from the Couch" with others. Your support helps us reach more people and continue providing valuable insights. Here’s to finding our purposes and living a life full of meaning and joy. Stay tuned for more!

Transcript

Laura Bowman: 0:00

It is so empowering. And it starts with women talking to each other. Yeah. And us just normalizing the conversation. I think it feels like tacky sometimes to talk about money. Oh, totally. People will glaze over. But the right women want to talk about this. And then they need to make it more

Colette Fehr: 0:16

possible to tell. I mean, that's why we're trying to open up right now to people even though some of what I'm saying I'd rather not really admit out loud.

Laura Bowman: 0:24

Oh my god. Yeah. I don't want to tell these stories. Yeah, it's crazy. Not Yeah.

Colette Fehr: 0:31

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to insights from the couch. I'm Colette and I'm here with Laura. And today we are diving into money, women and money. It's such a complicated relationship for so many reasons. But we really want to explore and bring to you today a conversation that's going to help us all at this midlife stage. What do we need to examine what do we need to be thinking about when it comes to our relationship with money with power dynamics, because you may have a very different experience around money, even within the cohort of our age group, depending on how you grew up what you've been through in the past. So without further ado, let's dive on in. We have so many things to talk about.

Laura Bowman: 1:19

There's so many permutations of this right? But are for women in our age group. You're so right. There are women, like you said that have run companies and are earning and feel very in control of their finances. And there are other women that have been in like really long term marriages. And money is like very much a mystery to them. Or it's handled by you know, their partner.

Colette Fehr: 1:41

Absolutely. Yeah. Let me just say I was just looking at some of Suze Orman stuff. You know, she kind of started this movement. I remember years ago, being in either high school or middle school and watching her on Oprah same talking about women and money.

Laura Bowman: 1:59

She wears like the same pair of earrings. She looked at one pair of earrings, which I've loved.

Colette Fehr: 2:05

Yeah, but I was looking back at some of her stuff and more recent stuff. And she said even though she's been talking about this for all of these years, and she knows all of these high powered women who you know, women are running, almost 50% of the companies that exist in America now are run by women, which is working amazing, right? And more women go to college than men, women are responsible for more than 40% of investments may I mean, it's just crazy, right? So things have changed dramatically. But what Suze Orman said is that it amazed her how all of these women she knew intimately who were really successful and sharp, were still totally in the dark when it came to their finances, and kind of afraid of them. And I know that doesn't represent everyone, but I think it does speak for a lot of women. Oh, yeah.

Laura Bowman: 2:55

And I think that it seems like it's a really bifurcated thing where some women have really come a long, long way with this. And then there are other women that are really still stuck. I mean, I know in my own money story that, like men handled money and my family, and I wanted them to handle it. Like I kind of looked at money as like a big pile of snakes, like, Oh, my God, just keep it away from me. Keep it working. I don't understand it. I don't want to touch it. I'm going to screw it up. And it's taken years. I mean, I'm still in the middle of this process, which is really I think it goes back to what if you listen to anybody who talks about money, like the financial feminist are rich BFF. There are a lot of women in the space right now. Which is great. Yes, yeah. Which is so good. And they're always going to start with like, what's your money history? What's your first money memory? Like this is as psychological as anything, you know, it's like personal and rooted in like scarcity, mindset, and like fear and shame, there's so much around that. Right. So I think that we can't understate how personal. These things are for women, you're bringing

Colette Fehr: 4:11

up an important point that this is not and one of the reasons we wanted to have this conversation. And we'll probably have many more about this topic is you and I are also on our own personal journey with this, which I'll share a little bit about too. But this is a psychological issue. Your relationship with money is really deeply psychologically rooted in ways that people don't often realize, I know, I didn't realize and honestly even years into being a therapist, I didn't realize what a psychological issue money was. And I'll just share a little bit about my personal story. And then I want to talk about some of the themes that come up in counseling that we both see. But for me, you know, I grew up in this very bizarre environment where everyone around me was extremely wealthy, my family He was not extremely wealthy. I mean, we were, you know, solidly comfortable, I would say, and all of these things are very subjective. But I was significantly less wealthy than pretty much everyone around me. And as a result, you would think this would make money such a thing for me. But what happened was that my parents who were everything into trying to give me the best advantages, kind of set me up in this group of people that had a different level of means. And in this particular cohort money was not discussed, that was considered impolite. You know, this was a New England aesthetic, I went to school in Connecticut, it was considered ostentatious and in poor form to talk about or show off money. Some of these people with multimillion dollars were driving around and beat up Ford station wagons. So to me, I just thought money existed. It was the backdrop that provided this what I now look back on as a very privileged life, that I didn't even understand how privileged it was at the time. But money just I just sort of expected that money would always be there, somebody else made it, the things you wanted to do happen. And I realize how obnoxious this might sound to people. But I want to also add that, you know, I went from that, and into a marriage in which I did have a lot of resources into a place after my divorce where I had no money at all to the point of like bankruptcy, and scraping the barrel. So lest you think I'm like, oh, Lottie die had this charmed life. You know, I've been here and here. And what really forced me to learn and reexamine my relationship with money was when I had to

Laura Bowman: 6:55

a man, like, which goes back to our purpose episode, I feel like until you're forced to grapple with this, yes, it's something that gets like kind of kicked down the road. And you know, my money story is just as kind of like, icky in some ways, you know, I grew up in a really wealthy family. And I think, like generational wealth, where a lot of the people around me were kind of ashamed of their relationship with money. I know, my dad was always super uncomfortable with it. But it was just there. And it provided this life, that I just like you, it just was so normal, you know, I went to boarding school, they were underdeveloped. A lot of them were, like, psychologically underdeveloped, and just did not have to be in the world. And it enabled my whole generation, to kind of, especially me and my brother, like, because my dad died early to, like, inherit this, this thing that we were so ill equipped to handle. And I think sometimes inherited wealth can be the bane of people's existence. I know the world's tiniest violin exists for this problem. They're like, Oh, tough life. But having to use your own body weight to sort of get through problems and navigate life is what you need. We need skills as women, we need experiences as women, if you were enabled as I was to sort of hold yourself outside of that, your self confidence just withers. And I see that all over some of the women I see. And I have such compassion for it. Because I understand how hard it is. And until you kind of face plant like you're describing after your divorce into the real contingencies of life. That's when you grow, and that's when you can get real. And so, you know, we've both been on yes, some of

Colette Fehr: 8:54

those days. You know, despite the seeming privilege of it, it's a tremendous disservice, you know, my parents and I love them to death, but they set me up for a life and expectation of a life that then I didn't have. And I didn't know what it took to develop that, you know, my parents came from immigrant parents who came to this country with nothing, and they worked their asses off. I mean, my mom's a teacher and Attorney at my dad's a doctor, my parents killed themselves to earn what they earned. And then they wanted to give me everything. But in the process, what got lost was teaching me that I needed to learn how to activate not just in an intellectual way, but in a fiscally responsible way. So that I was never dependent on a man and I could create the life I wanted. And I didn't really start doing that for myself until my mid 30s. Where I wish I had started younger. So yeah, when I when I relate to people in counseling, and we've talked about this, you know, I see the woman like us or are versions of US, long term marriage is married to someone they met when they were young, very smart, capable women who could have had all kinds of careers and chose to stay home with kids or to take a job where they are not the primary breadwinner, you know, maybe they have a job and they earn something. But the unspoken thing is that the husband is still earning the money. And the wife's job is like something that gives her a little boost or something for her to do, or helps her feel like she contributes. And then I see these women who I envy in a way not to, in any sense, take away from hardships they suffered, but maybe they didn't grow up with a lot, or they watched people really suffer, or they were kept out of opportunities. And they grew up with this hunger to achieve and thrive and sometimes borderlines on a fear, right, that scarcity mindset and

Laura Bowman: 10:58

often says, yes, yes, here is a huge motivator, right? Where

Colette Fehr: 11:04

it's like, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to live like that. Nobody's going to take care of me, but me and even if they're married, or committed to someone who's wealthy, and that person's like, you don't have to work so hard. They would not move away from their work, or anything because it is they're too scared to. Yeah, driver. Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 11:24

it's so funny. Like, it's so it's so personal. Like, I think my my money injury was like, I watched my mother have this, like, super privileged life with my dad. And it was a beautiful life. I think that was the thing that she could really control in that marriage was that, you know, even if it felt like crap, she could make it look good. And I really, like absorbed that. And when she decided to leave my dad, when I was 10. I thought Why are you throwing this away? Like, you stupid woman? You mean, that was I mean, I think I really felt that. And I had this drive inside of me, just like you're describing that woman who's like, I'm never gonna let this happen. I was like, I am going to recreate this life. And when you want to recreate a life that was like, super wealthy, you're asking money to do so many things. Yes. And, and it was, so it came from such a wound in me, and such an underdeveloped place. And I look back and I'm like, oh my god, I could have played those carts so differently. But I was really catering to like, a very childlike part in myself. I'm going to reclaim this life that was thrown away.

Colette Fehr: 12:39

I think sometimes when we're young, what we think we want, what's been modeled for us what we're after, it just doesn't turn out to be the Mecca that we thought it was gonna be. Yeah, you know, a mirage, and then you get it or, or you pursue it and you discover it isn't as possible. It isn't as fulfilling. Yeah. And you know, something I see a lot as a couples therapist, is women who, despite these times, where women are earning so much money, women who really feel financially trapped in their marriages, whether they are or aren't, if you've been married 20 plus years, you know, you're gonna get us you're gonna get half of all the shared assets. In most states. That's how it works. Even though alimony laws are changing, and lifetime alimony seems to be largely going away. You know, most women married a long time, if they're married to someone, and they haven't been the primary earner, they're going to come out with enough to survive, but they're still terrified. And it really keeps people stuck in relationships. Sometimes

Laura Bowman: 13:51

women want money for they they definitely need money for safety. You know, that's a huge piece. I hear that all the time in counseling, I don't feel safe. I don't feel like I'm being planned for I hear that a lot.

Colette Fehr: 14:04

I've felt some of that. Oh, my God, I

Laura Bowman: 14:06

feel I feel that too. Um, so it's like, we want it for safety. And we don't we're not sure we can keep ourselves safe. I think many women, especially the ones that have been in those long marriages are like, am I going to be okay, if I decide to do this? Yeah. And then at the same time, women are the spenders in their homes, largely. Like we are tasked with making families work providing for the things that kids need. I'm grappling with that right now. I've got to get a couple of my kids driving, I've got to get SATs, prep courses, everything for kids cost money. And so you're the spender and you're trying to achieve safety. And so and then there's this other thing that you and I were talking about where women use money and status and this is like so icky to talk about, for visibility and self worth, ya know? young women from a young age are pouring tons of money into their skincare, their hair, their you know, they're just, they are their own valuable product. Absolutely.

Colette Fehr: 15:14

I see that with my daughters. My daughters are 20 and 23. And they spend more on their treatments and put more time and energy into it than I do. But we've been we've been trained that way. So a lot of women are still hooked into all of that, and spending a lot of resources there and using it as like a surrogacy for self worth. But

Laura Bowman: 15:37

if you think about it, being pulled in all those directions, like I need to look good. I need to present wow, I need to and perfectionism it's its own thing, but it's that self protective. Like I look, I have it all together. Yeah. And then I need to actually provide all these things for my family or my home. And then I actually want to feel safe and planned. So like, we're in all different directions.

Colette Fehr: 16:00

It's a quandary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then not to mention add on to it. If you are that woman who really wants to have a thriving career and make money, you get such fucked messages from society about whether or not you can have at all you know it, the pendulum swings. Yes, women can have it all they can raise the family and the big career. Oh, no, you can't, you have to pick one. You know, it's still so confusing, especially when you consider that women are still responsible for most of us are working, most women are working. And we're still responsible for 75% of domestic duties. So how do we reconcile all of this with money? You know, it's, it's complicated. And I think what we're trying to start to say here is, let's talk about it not once, not twice, consistently, let's look at it. Let's examine our psychological relationship with money, how what we learned when we're young might not be serving us, what expectations we have that just feel like the way we view the world, but maybe are more subjective than we realize, you know, and where are the areas for growth? One of those we talked about is, and I hate this talk about achy, I hate that I ever thought like this, truly. But I'll out myself, that whole idea as women of like, alright, you know, I'm married. So what you earn should be like ours. And what I earn should be a little more for me.

Laura Bowman: 17:42

I say this all the time. It's in women our age, like, like you said, it's the younger generation, they're like, splitting things. It's a totally, or even,

Colette Fehr: 17:52

even my younger couples, like say under 40 Come in, and a lot of them even married church, this credit card for this week's couples session, and then charge my credit card, they have separate bank accounts. They're both working, they really have a different power dynamic. But for our generation,

Laura Bowman: 18:13

it's like you're paying all the household bills. And when I get paid, I'm going to go get Botox.

Colette Fehr: 18:19

Yeah. Oh, my God. That's me. I mean, right now, my husband is and I have moved away from this attitude, I think, but then I look at some of the ways I'm still in it. Like right now I'm on a sabbatical working on my book, and my husband is very generously covering the household expenses during this time. And I just got Botox. Right, Chris, you're dead, right? Because I have to not have railroad tracks in the middle of my forehead. I'm on video and right, it's back to what you're saying, like the upkeep and I don't even consider myself a vain person at all. But obviously, I'm somewhat vain. I see

Laura Bowman: 19:01

that all the time. And, and I think that there's also this thing with women in our generation where it's like we want to work on in one, one part of us wants to work and another part of us will very much wants to be taken care of. And this can be such a hotbed for resentment, if that pendulum swings too far in any one way. And I've I've grappled with this too, like me too. I really do have like a fundamental belief that like, a man should be taking care of pretty much everything which I'm eradicating that cell that part of me actively, but it isn't going away easily.

Colette Fehr: 19:37

And well, what not every woman has that view many do. You see it all the time and counseling, some of this stuff that we're giving voice to because it sounds so shitty, I think most of us intellectually reject. I don't really think that my money should be for me, and my husband's money should take care Have me or you know that a man should save me. But on some level, some subconscious level, the way I was raised,

Laura Bowman: 20:11

you know what I will leave it to men who come with it too they believe they ought to provide. And this is such like a pain point for so many men Our age is like they want to provide everything. And when they can't, that's like a tough place. Yeah, I talk a lot with men and money, because it's so much like where their worth lies. Yeah, and their value. And that's, that's the thing that's really woken me up more than anything is listening to men struggle, you know, how they provide,

Colette Fehr: 20:39

right? Because if if we as a society have historically viewed that as men's responsibility and women's expectation, then of course, men's self worth is tied to that. And you know, not everyone could, especially this world, everything has become so expensive. It's just, you know, unless you're in that point, Oh, 1%.

Laura Bowman: 21:02

You know, it's very leave the house for less than $300. Yeah, I

Colette Fehr: 21:06

mean, it's really gotten, the American Dream is out of whack. But you know, I think that's what I was going to ask you. Do women still want men to take care of them financially? Well, I think

Laura Bowman: 21:19

of as they get older, and I've told you this, I have, like a little spate of client of men that I'm seeing whose wives have left them in the golden years, as problems have arisen in the relationship. But mainly, they don't need to work through it anymore. They have financial means, and they're like, I want to be in charge of my own life and my own home and my own peace. Yes. And so I think at a certain age, women are very, very happy to take care of themselves if they can. I agree,

Colette Fehr: 21:50

I see this a ton, where a marriage has gone on for years and years and years. And all of a sudden, the wife, you know, let's not even say she inherits a huge amount of money, but enough to feel secure. Yeah, it's something changes, and she's got her own money. And suddenly, she's like, You know what, I've been fucking miserable with you for 20 years, and I'm not doing it anymore. I've tried to ask you to change or do this or that you don't want to hear me, you've blown me off for years. And now I'm done. And all of a sudden, these has, let's go to couples counseling, I hear you. Let's do that right there just yet panting and exerting to try to catch up. Because once somebody really has the leverage, and they're willing to walk, it's a whole different thing. It really

Laura Bowman: 22:37

is. And like you said, you know, it's really at that stage of life. It's not men who want to leave, it's women who want to leave. You know, men, men get a quite a bit out of being married.

Colette Fehr: 22:49

Actually, research shows men get a lot more out of being married than women. Yeah. And I know, this is anecdotal. I don't know what the real research is on how many women versus men seek divorce. And I imagined this might be hard to study. But I can tell you as a very busy couples therapist, the vast majority, like 90 plus percent of my couples, it is the woman who is considering leaving, not the man. Yeah. And I don't think that used to always be the case, you know, 3040 years ago, because men would just trade an older wife for a new younger wife.

Laura Bowman: 23:28

That's definitely in a different phase of life. That would that would definitely happen. But yeah, I think as women get financial independence, or they, they have so many more choices, and when you don't have choices, you do have to stay in substandard situations, right.

Colette Fehr: 23:44

So I think also part of this is, you know, there isn't only one way to live or do this, there's nothing wrong with staying home and having a traditional relationship and plenty of people do that happily. One person earns the money, you know, they're stay at home dads now all over the place and the younger generations, there's no one right way. Yeah, but as women, we have got to develop a more fully embodied 360 relationship with money with spending, with earning. And I know for me with these antiquated views I had in the past about how I should be taken care of and money would be provided. Now that I earn even though I'm married, you know, we do function like some of these younger couples, it's a second marriage, we keep our finances pretty separate. We pay for our house together. And other than that, we have our own accounts and we split things, you know, our earnings or are not far off from one another. And the sense of worth, I get out of money, and I'm not wealthy by any means. You know, I'm a therapist. Right? How much money can a therapist possibly earn. But I make a good living, I work hard for it and the amount of like pride and value in myself, I feel from that. It's transformed my confidence and my relationship with myself.

Laura Bowman: 25:14

Amen to that. And I second that, as somebody who thought I'd never have to deal with money, like never even have to, like, look or consider having to navigate money. I think I've grown up a ton in the last couple of years. And my views are rapidly evolving. And my relationship with earning is, is vastly different. And I look back at my younger self, and I think about me versus my brother, my brother was always like, capable of doing so many things. Like he could rewire the house, he could frame houses, he just, he was always just had a ton of skills. And I thought like, What the hell was I doing? When I was a young woman? I was like, Oh, I think it was in my mirror learning how to, like French braid my hair. For hours. That's what I was doing. And I was like, Why haven't I put skills more at the forefront? And I hope young women really begin to build skills. And women our age, if you don't know where to start, just start by building your skills to try things get out there. Like because you can earn money. Yeah, I've seen it was really good. Because actually, money is not that hard. You know, like, there's just some basic things and living within your means and investing. And it's not actually that hard to learn. You can Google all of it. It's the emotional piece. Exactly. And if you are willing to grapple with that, it's an and it's embarrassed. I mean, part of my money stories like so embarrassing, just like can barely talk about it sometimes. But being willing to do that work. Yeah, will open you up. And one book I would really, really recommend is Kate Levinson's work. She is a therapist, I think she's a psychologist, and she wrote the book Emotional currency. So if people want a place to start, and they're like, Yeah, I got to start looking at some of this stuff. Start there and start with your own money story. Because most all of the baggage comes from that.

Colette Fehr: 27:16

And the huge role that emotions play, you're right. You know, I've had to learn all of these things the hard way. And now I enjoy it. You know, I used to, I used to have a story that like, I'm just not good at money. I don't get that my intelligences are all very liberal arts focus. Oh, God, I have no right to literature and history and pondering and pontificating, but not these practical skills. And that's bullshit. First of all, were smart women. I don't know where I got that idea, or I guess I do. But it was a lie. And as I've dived in, I've enjoyed, you know, being an investor in the stock market, having a robust retirement account that I've funded myself, you know, really learning those things. And the biggest thing I learned that it's never too late to learn, because I started not that long ago, is that it's really not just how much you earn. In fact, it's much more how much you say yes. And that at any level, you can really prioritize what's important to you, and save for the future. And it feels so good. I mean, this is the thing it is. So what is more powerful as a woman than feeling capable? And in control of your life?

Laura Bowman: 28:38

Teachers? Are some of them, like most common millionaires, right? They're like steady Eddy with investing. Yeah, they have pensions and things like that very often. But you're right. You know, it is so empowering. And it starts with women talking to each other. Yeah. And us just normalizing the conversation. I think it feels like tacky, sometimes to talk about money. Oh, totally. I mean, I people will glaze over. But the right women want to talk about this.

Colette Fehr: 29:06

And they need to make it more possible to tell I mean, that's why we're trying to open up right now to people even though some of what I'm saying I'd rather not really admit out loud.

Laura Bowman: 29:15

Oh my god. Yeah. I don't want to tell these stories. Yeah, it's crazy. Not Yeah.

Colette Fehr: 29:21

But also, then otherwise, how do we grow? And how do we remove some of the shame and embarrassment and fear? And get honest, it all starts with getting honest with yourself. I think about what you've learned, and where do you want to go? And

Laura Bowman: 29:38

just start, just start because things can really change any year. Momentum is all we're after most of the time. Yeah, it's like we just want to be better than we were last year and evolve and we can evolve with money pretty quickly. Yeah. Because, well,

Colette Fehr: 29:54

we're saying the younger generations have really changed a lot of this and we'll do things very differently. From how we did our generation did, you know I think that we can whatever the circumstances, even if you're not earning, I wish I could go back in time and have started doing some of the things I'm doing earlier. Even if it was as simple as, you know, saving for retirement when I was 25, when I

Laura Bowman: 30:21

was like, why would have started my Roth IRA at like, 15. Yeah,

Colette Fehr: 30:25

and you know, there may be some of you listening who are like, God, these two ladies are frickin clueless, we have this figured out. And you know what I say to that? Amazing, beautiful, you know, I wish I could have learned from you sooner, but I think there are people out there that just push it to the side, whatever the story about it is, and ignore money. And you don't want to wake up one day and feel like you don't have choices, because you're not educated about your own finances, or you didn't pay attention to it or plan for it. Yeah,

Laura Bowman: 31:03

or you deferred to a partner, and you never invested your time or knowledge. And now you're just scared of it. Yeah. And

Colette Fehr: 31:11

I just wanted to say one more thing about I was thinking about a friend I have from childhood, who by all rights, like has it all, maybe the perfect life. And it's not even just from the outside. And I don't want to say who this person is, I won't give too many details. But, you know, I had a conversation with her not that long ago, where she talked about how I mean, she is beautiful, wealthy, does not have really a care in the world. And she talked about how never earning her own money, even at a like small level, is a real source of shame and dissatisfaction for her. And so I think, you know, there's something to be said, for whether it's a big career, or a smaller job, just the self esteem emotionally and psychologically that comes from earning something on your own.

Laura Bowman: 32:13

I couldn't agree more on this. And I this is why I like I feel like inherited wealth or wealth that comes from outside of yourself can be so destructive. And it can be it just, it makes you feel your self esteem, feel so squashed. And in case you feel incapable of putting yourself into the room. Yes, in some ways. I mean, I remember I felt like, well, I don't want to I have everything I need, I don't need to do X, or it's not even my place to do X, or people were thinking I'm ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like you just create your own story that you don't put yourself into the world. But the longer you do that, the smaller you get, yeah. So yourself in the world, even in the smallest of ways.

Colette Fehr: 32:58

And let them talk about money. I mean, I want to do something about this, you and I like every season, because and I know there's a million people talking about it, but good, we need to talk about this, and just D stigmatize it and raise our collective awareness as women.

Laura Bowman: 33:17

Yeah. And I think there's so many more women in the financial space, you can find female financial advisors now. I mean, there's just women have investing clubs. I mean, it's yeah, the bro finance Chad idea has been is actively being debunked.

Colette Fehr: 33:35

Oh, and I have some female friends who are so sharp about money and on it and I admire them and I want to learn from them. Me too. Am I want to I just want more of that in my life. Yes, me too. So alright, well, I hope everyone got something out of this and maybe heard a little tidbit you can relate to we're gonna talk about this some more.

Laura Bowman: 33:57

And even just with anything you want us to talk about or even your own, you know, personal quandary with this, and we'll talk about it. Anything,

Colette Fehr: 34:07

go to our website insights from the couch.org Send us a message. Let us know what you want to talk about. email us with questions, and we'll address them in the podcast. We'd love to hear from you. So thanks, everyone for listening, and we'll see you next time.