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**NOTE: This is an unedited transcript, which we will be cleaning up over the next several days. Thank you for your patience as we work towards better accessibility for our podcast!**

Poet Talk about the Parasocial featuring Summer Farah
===

Sanna Wani: [00:00:00]
Hello, and welcome to Poet Talk, a podcast where poets talk. I'm your host, Sana Wani.

Jody Chan:
And I'm your host, Jody Chan.

Sanna Wani:
Before we begin, I want to ground us in another land acknowledgement. This time our guest is coming in from California in what is colloquially known as the United States. The area which is now known as San Diego County has been inhabited for more than 12, 000 years by the Kumeyaay, the Poyamkamacham, the Kupenyo, the Kawila, and the Hashiman, among many other local predecessors.

The Kumeyaay Research Department writes on the resistance of the Kumeyaay against the Spanish. It was seen as overwhelming to the Spanish at times. In 1771, a lieutenant colonel summed up the Kumeyaay attitudes as follows: "Indeed, this tribe, which among the discovered, is the most numerous and is also the most restless, stubborn, haughty, warlike, and hostile towards us, absolutely opposed to all rational subjection, and full of the spirit of independence."

In this time, may we all embody the spirit of restlessness, stubbornness, and hostility towards the forces of colonialism that look to silence us and continue committing genocide across the world ceaselessly. May we all carry a spirit virulently opposed to all rational subjugation and full of independence.

From Turtle Island to Palestine, none of us are free until all of us are free. This week, we're talking about the parasocial. We'll discuss the parasocial in terms of parasocial interactions, parasocial behaviors, and as the word is most commonly found, parasocial relationships. To contextualize the word even further, let me borrow from Dictionary.com's Tech and Science Dictionary and Wiktionary. For a moment, I love Wiktionary. The typical definition is as follows. Coined by the American sociologist Richard Wall and Donald Horton in 1956, the term parasocial refers to a relationship that a person imagines having with another person whom they do not actually know, such as a celebrity or a character.

It has also been popularly referred to as intimacy at a distance. The term can be broken down into the ancient Geek parts para-, as a powerful prefix meaning beside, along, adjacent, or next to, um, which also has associations with strangeness, unrecognition, avoidance, or falsehood. And social is a word we all know pretty well, but perhaps I can amplify by adding that the root of the word is simply friend.

And joining us to discuss the parasocial is the incredible Palestinian poet, writer, and editor, summer Farah. She's the author of the zine "And I Was So Young When I Behaved 25,: poems [00:03:00] inspired by Mitski, and the chapbook "I Could Die Today and Live Again," inspired by the Legend of Zelda series and published by Game Over Books.

She's funny, thoughtful, and like ridiculously cool. Um, I've had the honor of knowing her maybe parasocially, maybe virtually, it depends on how we define it, for a few years now, and her writing never fails to stun and surprise me. When I think of rising stars in poetry, and when I think of writers who I can deeply trust and rely on for both their delight and their ethic, Summer immediately comes to mind.

She's a beacon of what it means to me to know poetry in all of its liveliness, all of its grief, all of its good memory. Jody, now it's Jody's turn to talk about lovely things about Summer.

Jody Chan:
Sorry to make you squirm off the top. Um, but Sanna, I love that you grounded us in the roots of parasocial also - beside a friend -

[00:04:00] because when I think about you, Summer, I think of you as a friend of a friend in the best way. Um, everyone knows someone who knows you and has glowing and loving things to say about you. You're someone I've been connected to in community and adjacently for many years now, and now through Sanna as well, so who better to talk to about the parasocial, both the celebrity aspects, um, and some of those maybe dangerous aspects, but also how it can genuinely bring people together in connection and community. These days I've been bringing Summer's work into almost every reading that I've been doing - you're someone whose work I turn to to be with humor, hunger, ancestry, love.

I'm thinking about a few lines in your poem, our flag means death, which I read recently: "no more, if only, if only, if only instead we wanted different and we've decided to make it so. instead we know what we've always deserved." And your poetry offers so much of that different that what we've always deserved.

And for me, it's a compass for my own living and community building and yeah, reading you always reminds me of the feeling of freedom and what it is we're fighting for. Welcome. I'm sorry. Welcome. We're so sorry. Oh my goodness.

Summer Farah:
No, that's nice. Listen, um, I had like four hours of sleep. This is really overwhelming.

Thank you for being so nice to me. I admire both of you so much and I think we're going to have a lot of fun.

Jody chan:
I think so too. But yeah, Summer, we're wondering if you want to start us off today by reading one of the poems from your chapbook, I Could Die Today and Live Again, and yeah, just share anything you want with us about why you chose this poem for today.

Summer Farah [00:06:00]:
Yeah, I'll read this poem: "In another life, Link is a poet."

Shaped by need, desire, legend, my heart
Scattered in pieces across time zones
Immortal as tradition
What am I but goddess will?

Across cliff sides, I leap towards salvation for me, for country Stalling at every song that leads lovers astray Mustn't forget where I am meant to be Each interlude a stolen secret, a quiet tremor against what has already been told.
Long had my movements been dictated by worn trails, trotted on by horses named for goddesses, by the familiar brush of blonde as desert darkness looms at every signpost. Me, who does not speak until spoken to, femininity a sword, calloused hands remember ancestry as calloused hands touch steel. I yearn for the after, I feel it in sibling laughter, in the house across the lake, the seclusion of water, it brings me peace, it brings me death, I write this verse over and over, if the bard stops singing of green, who am I when the last chord rings out?
Oh, in my fingertips, in my breath, long have I yearned for more than me, for all of us.

There's a few poems in the book with that title, "In Another Life Link is a Poet," um, and it became sort of the anchoring motif for the book. So it's poems inspired by Zelda. Um, I wanted to write poems where I wasn't immediately obviously the speaker in the way that like, um, I think most of my work is very incredibly confessional and intimate.

And so I want to experiment with like taking on a different voice both in terms of tone of the line and language and, um, figure who's speaking, and I think video games are especially a lot of Nintendo protagonists are so fun for that because they are not you, but they are you, you know, like they aren't characters that you can customize into yourself, but they're also, um, sort of blank slate enough where you can project onto them.

And so there is this kind of, um, convergence between player self and the character self. Um, um, was, yeah, it was like a fun experiment to see like, how much can I reference my own life so immediately, but it also be, Something that you can pull from the game as well, like I tried very hard to be like there.

I'm not gonna use, um, moments of departure of metaphor or image that don't have, um, kind of like cognates in the game as well, unless I want to be very, very, drastic and pointed about it. And so, yeah, and thinking [00:09:00] about like parasocial relationships and that kind of distant intimacy, I think that, um, relationships to sort of fictional, I think when I think about parasocial, most of the time, I do think more about like my celebrity relationships, but there is like this kind of two way attachment, I think, there's a convergence.

And so, yeah, I thought it would be a fun poem to read for our conversation. How do we project onto things that can't push back against that projection as well. But at the same time, staying very grounded to the images or the objects or the reference points that are kind of within that world or of that character.

Jody Chan:
Yeah, I like what you said, unless I'm gonna be really drastic and intentional and and very pointed, um, about the reason for that departure.

Sanna Wani:
I was thinking as you were [00:10:00] reading that I love hearing Link's voice through you. Like, you bring, like, I think everybody has their own special kind of like when you're playing the game, it's like a different, everyone's a different link, maybe, right? But then like, Summer's link, I love the quiet, precise poetry of it. Like, I don't know, there's just this feeling of like, when you're in the game, like, there's that Bigness and that expansiveness that bring so many of us to it, but then there's also just this very precious quiet and like, I feel like you captured that so beautifully.

Summer Farah:
Thank you. Um, I think in a lot of, I don't know, just like general media I engage with, but mostly I'll normally play video games where there is like fighting and violence. Um, cartoonish most of the time because I mostly play Nintendo, but um, I think like when you watch like, I don't know, like shonen anime or you play games where the protagonists are young [00:11:00] people, a lot of times it's like, well, I wish I could take them away from this violence and this struggle.

Um, I want to put like, I just want everyone to play volleyball on Haikyuu.

What if Link could coach a high school volleyball team?

But yeah, in thinking about a character who has a cyclical destiny and like, well, what is the what-if of this character? And I think Link could be a poet. Why not? That'd be really fun. Yeah.

Jody Chan:
I love that. Totally. What is the what if of this character? So I was gonna say, as I was listening to you read this poem, there's almost like a split screen kind of thing happening for me.

Like Link as the character and then also there's this sort of loving presence that I'm sort of hearing coming from you and surrounding this character with the what if and even in exploring like the yearning of [00:12:00] the character, like these blank slate video game characters don't get to have desires or their own longings, or so often it's just like it's just like scripted, Your heroes adventure or whatever, and um that it is for the people or for the all of us. But yeah even in that last line of yearning for more than me for all of us, like including, including himself in that all of us.

Sanna Wani:
Um, and yeah, I'm just like, I don't know, is there an escape from this responsibility for this character who has this, who is, yeah, kind of cast in this way. Um, God knows he needs it. Yeah. I'm also thinking, since you've, uh, summoned Haikyuu into the room somewhere, I'm thinking about, I also, I'm a big fan, obsessed with that ridiculous volleyball anime, don't know why I'm so emotionally dependent on their success.

[00:13:00] Anyway, um, but there's one scene that's coming to mind that's very resonant with what we're talking about, which is like, one of the characters on a, like, rival team is like, Very kind of like the, like Kenma, like the very like video game, like quote unquote, unmotivated sort of character. But then there's this one scene I think about a lot where he's like running or he's just doing a basic exercise where he's like running outside and it's from his perspective and you can just see like what the video games bring to his life.

Like he's a, the imaginative power, I think, which I think video games and poetry have deeply in common. Um, and I just think that that's like, so, because there's also like that recursive relationship to like, where you were in control in some way of like the game and of link in that sense, or like Zelda or whatever's happening.

But there's also a power that they have for us or like that they give us as well to like reimagine our lives or to have this [00:14:00] like, and especially with Zelda, it's just this shockingly beautiful place. And then I just, I feel like that's that like reciprocity between the game and the game and the gamer is so interesting to me in what it can like bring to people's lives.

Speaking of game and game and gamer somewhere, I was wondering, so when I was reading the acknowledgement section, there's this line at the end where you wrote, thank you to my very real friends, Link and Zelda. I wondered if you want to talk about that and. Yeah, just what kind of relationships are, are possible with video game characters, with anime characters?

Like, would you call that parasocial? Or yeah, just what? Yeah, you know, I, um, you know, in some ways it's like the line is a goof, right? But, but it is also kind of like the Zelda franchise or games that I've played since I was like a very little girl. Like I, I think I [00:15:00] kind of learned to read. quickly because of playing Ocarina of Time with my brother and he would like scroll through the dialogue really fast because like he'd either already seen it or like just didn't really care and I was like I just learned to read so I've never seen this before.

Um, but please slow down. Um, and so I think a lot of my like Becoming a person is very attached to video games. Um, and like I, I can mark a lot of, um, joy, both in the act of like playing, like with my brother and the other kids in our neighborhood, um, but also like, The kind of imitation like I was, I was a little baby gymnast and like I would pretend that I was link, you know, tumbling around.

Um, um, I think that I had such a strong affinity for like the visuals of the games [00:16:00] where there are like the beautiful luscious trees that children live in and just this desire to be like, that kind of independent child left alone like in this magical self sufficient world. Um, and like, uh, yeah, I think Zelda is also a character that was always really appealing as like, you know, like I wasn't, I, I liked princesses as a kid, but I wasn't, I wasn't really like a princess girl.

Um, and so I, I liked the duality that Zelda offered of being like, a little girl who likes video games where there is a princess character that can fit into like sort of what you're supposed to like. Um, but she's also like chic. She's also a ninja. She's also like a powerful player in this sort of triangulation of destiny.

Um, and yeah, I, I very much like was [00:17:00] attached to both of those characters. Um, and at every point in my life, like there has been a Zelda game for me to play. Um, And like, uh, this book in particular kind of started, um, both, you know, as the experiment, but, um, I first started thinking about wanting to write about Selva.

Um, when I was really sick after I graduated college, um, like I'd wanted to write Zelda poems before, um, Marlon M. Jenkins, my dear friend, an incredible poet, has, um, Capable Monsters, which is an incredible chapbook of Pokemon poems, um, but I'd been reading their work, um, before the chapbook came out, um, but I just was so enchanted with the way that they sounded so right.

sort of wove poems from Pokedex entries. And I was like, well, I want to try that. I'm trying to turn in game into poetry. Like, how do I capture the feeling of playing into a poem the way Marlon sort of does these kind of [00:18:00] just gorgeous, sort of like a frosted poems from Pokedex entries. But I had this period where I was like, after I graduated college, basically like all of the stress of like being a student.

sort of, uh, made me very ill. Um, and I was like, uh, having just bad asthma flares where I just couldn't really walk down the street without needing my inhaler. Um, and so I was playing a lot of Breath of the Wild and kind of, uh, it was my strongest escapism of like, well, I'm, you know, with my buddy Link who can, climb cliffs and waterfalls and fight and doesn't need an inhaler every three hours.

Um, and so yeah, I think that like, uh, there's like that sense of comfort and, um, and I don't know, I don't know if it's, I mean, the thing is like by definition, I guess it is parasocial because like these characters [00:19:00] can't, um, interact back with me. Um, But some of parasocial to me, there is a sense of expectation, I think, based upon the other person in the relationship, as if like, they can't reciprocate, um, because we don't know each other or they're not real.

And so I'm expecting a certain behavior that would mark the reciprocation. Mm hmm. Like, I love Mitski and her music. And she's a talented artist who, whose work I see myself in. And so my brain says, well, then she must care about Palestine because we can't talk to each other, but she can signify a reciprocation of our relationship.

Bye. Acknowledging genocide or something, you know, and I think that's when that's when that kind of the kind of parasocial thing fucks fucks me up right because I maybe I'm not even realizing that I'm [00:20:00] hoping for that sort of relationship or considering that reciprocation. And then I'm like, Jesus Christ.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like when they fail that expectation, that actually it's like, Oh, I love that, that word, like just expectation being added or differentiating like the parasocial and I'd love to like, like dig more into that. Um, like one of our questions was about how we define the parasocial. So I'd love to hear like how you think of it.

Yeah, just to share more about what that texture of difference is. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I mean, I think it's, I think it's hard. I think, um, I was listening to some Phoebe Bridgers earlier, um, and, uh, what is it? What's the song? Uh, Punisher. Uh, she has the line, Uh, what if I told you I feel like I know you but we've never met?

I think that there's kind of [00:21:00] two lanes in which there is this desire and hope that the other people that we are kind of sharing this earth with, Harry. good values, you know, or at least like caring values or minimum sort of threshold of like care for like fellow human. Um, and then there's the kind of the parasocial aspect is when we are I don't know, maybe like projecting onto or taking more than maybe they deserve credit for, for what they've done or said.

Um, like, uh, uh, Chapel Roan just, uh, performed at, um, the Governor's Ball. Um, she's awesome. I love her music. I'm having a great time being a fan of her. Um, um, and she, uh, You know, she declined to play at the White House for [00:22:00] pride and, um, uh, because of the, you know, U. S. contribution to genocide in Palestine.

Um, I mean, but the thing is, she didn't say that, right? She said, like, this vague kind of, like, When there's peace and justice for all, then I'll, then I'll perform at the White House. And then at the Governor's Ball, she said something like, um, uh, like, I don't know, like freedom for all people in occupied territories.

And, you know, she's been, uh, she's been selling, uh, like friendship bracelets at her shows that go to, um, like as a relief. Um, and so, uh, that's like, that's a cool thing that she can do as someone who is touring and people want to buy things that have her, you know, signature on them, right? Freedom for people in occupied territories can mean anything.

Um, she's performing on stolen land, right? But, you know, you can see people saying like, Oh, well, like, Palestine's not the only genocide [00:23:00] happening. And it's like, totally. But I think every, People, if you are expressing care for them, they, they deserve to be named. They deserve the dignity to be named. So if you are shouting them out at your show when you have this sort of platform.

Um, if you're talking in code, um, then that's a kind of a bummer, but like, you know, I will, you know, take it or leave it, but I think the, the parasocial aspect comes in with the, well, like, I know what chapel means. Right. My good friend. It's almost like in that desire for intimacy with this person that you have this parasocial relationship with or celebrity and being overly generous and like ascribing an intention like, Oh, of course, of course she meant Palestine.

Of course she meant this or that when actually like, like, we don't, we don't really know what she meant because she wasn't specific. Yeah. And someone with that amount of celebrity, like having [00:24:00] responsibility or like accountability for the power they have, um, or the platform they have. It's reminding me too of like attribution because like the term parasocial is very like psychological and then that brings to mind like these ideas like what do we attribute to what and sometimes like Why do we do that?

And how does that not necessarily correlate to like, what exists or not for that person, but what exists for us? And then I was just thinking that this whole Chapel Rowan thing reminded me of Jodi. Some of your thoughts about Mitski? Yeah. Maybe, maybe we could slide that way. Of course I support Palestine.

Could it be anything else? Go, go, go. Three Mitski lovers in a Zoom call going, go, go, go. Get her, get her. Like, give me a fucking break. I don't know. Um, yeah, Jodi, I would love to hear your [00:25:00] thoughts. Cause I, I have, I have some entirely way too generous, like parasocial feelings. about like this entire, I love, I love the new album.

I love it so much, but I'm so fascinated in the technique of the rollout of it and what she's been doing. Like leave me alone, kind of like, uh, making herself a character, um, creating these types of like allowed Intimacies where it's like, come watch the movies that I like. Now we have that in common.

Listen to me, talk about what the songs are about. That's what we have. Like these kind of allowables that she's giving for this because I, because people are, you know, they're awful to her or her fans are not kind to her. Um, and it's, it's scary. And I, I understand that. And I, I feel for her in the ways at which she's talked about it, but it gets to a point where it's like, okay, but like.

There are bigger things than the characters that we have to play in order to sort of protect ourselves. But just to contextualize maybe for [00:26:00] people who don't know just to lay the groundwork maybe if we could say more about like I actually don't even know that her fans were awful to her I just kind of took it for granted that she just hated being a celebrity like This is what Jodi and I talked about, like there's this one interview I've read where she like refuses to even share her like cat's names, just in case somebody might like, she feels like somebody might be able to track down where she lives, which is like completely valid in this age of the internet.

Like it's terrifying to have yourself be out there as a public persona. But then. She, she, you know, kind of pretends to opt out of her celebrity, um, which leaves this like kind of raging open gap that it's what we're all poking at being like, well, you know, you're, you're not really opting out at all.

You're just being silent, which is, which is your choice. But like, Yeah. So I guess where I'm coming from in terms of like a fan history, uh, earlier interviews that she's given, she's talked about the ways that people have like [00:27:00] touched her, um, when she is in a crowd or when she's exiting a crowd. Um, I think that there's a lot of like kind of invasiveness and kind of sense of ownership.

Over her body and she's talked about like being like a small Asian woman in these spaces and just the kind of ways people Want to kind of hold her and like have her and I think that that's in the kind of like Contemporary era of her career in which she is far more successful has turned into She says, please don't use your phone the entire show.

I would love to connect with you all. And then people are so mad at her for weeks to the point where she has to apologize for saying, please don't be on your phone the whole show. And, and I mean, like all, I think all artists experience some degrees of this, but I think there is a, um, Especially with the way her earlier music is that kind of like, [00:28:00] incredible raw vulnerability.

Um, I think that is, uh, being used against her. Um, by people who are ideally supposed to be like celebrating and like feeling with her. Um, but it feels like it kind of comes into a place of, uh, Yeah, ownership, um, or if she owes them something, um, because of the attention, um, instead of it being a reciprocal exchange, which I think is what she's been trying very hard to get.

With the last two albums and it'll isn't right. It's interesting to like, try and tease out these dynamics of like entitlement or expectation, like the kinds of ownership that you're describing, um, like with some of her fans. But then on the other hand, like, at what point are. Celebrities, like, yeah, I don't know, do have a responsibility to acknowledge like the power and the wealth and the platform they have.

And [00:29:00] I feel like that's a way that people like critique others who are like, hey, why haven't you said anything about Palestine? Or why haven't you said anything about Sudan? Or like, um, and then people will say, oh, that's not true. These people are humans. You're not entitled to their activism and you're not entitled to their like politics and that feels like a totally different thing.

So how do we talk about? Yeah, these different kinds of of expectation in this round of parasocial. Yeah, I think it's just I think they're just like, I find it to me. So, um, uh, what is it like, yeah. Uh, not silly, but it is silly when people say things like that, when it's like, okay, there's a big difference between Mitzki telling you her cat's name so you can stalk her and her not doing a ticket sale when there's been a strike called from journalists in Gaza, you know?

Um, and those are kind of like moves of solidarity you can make as an artist. Um, And [00:30:00] like, uh, yeah, so it's like, it's like, what, what, we all, we're all people in this world, right, and we all can do certain things, um, and like, I, I would love it if my most listened to artist did all of the things that I would want myself to do if I was in their position.

Um, I'm not gonna, I'm I'm not going to create like an ultimatum in my head for that. Like maybe I should, I don't think I'm capable of doing that though. Um, unfortunately, um, but there are things where it's like, yeah, it is a bummer that the tickets for a show. went on sale when I was not spending any money because to respect the wishes of journalists for being experiencing a genocide or, um, she hasn't played in Israel.

I don't think she will.

We both know. [00:31:00] And then it's interesting because the people that kind of surround her creatively are pretty. Vocal, like, um, her photographer for this full, like, album cycle is incredibly vocal about Palestine. Um, people who have worked on the installations, um, her pop ups are incredibly, are, are Palestinian even.

Um, her openers, um, like Julia Jaclyn, um, yeah, and so it's just, it's a very interesting thing where it's like, what is the holdup? And I think the holdup is that she is trying very hard. To be like this new era of Mitski and it's like well like you can throw I don't know I don't know. Maybe i'm projecting too much but It's also, yeah, me like, almost like the more people move up the ladder of like fame and celebrity and success, the more coddling or like special babying there is of them around, [00:32:00] like making a very, like, basic.

political stance or like a stance of solidarity when actually it's like, um, young racialized, like working class artists and like Palestinians who are actually experiencing a genocide who are actually experiencing these consequences. Um, and why is there, yeah, just so much like, Yeah. Holding of the feelings of this person who has so much and is not.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

To kind of return this conversation about, about Mitski and about celebrity to your poems, Summer, like you do have a series of poems, like, um, writing to or writing with, And so I'm curious if, um, yeah, if you want to say anything about that and why you gravitate towards the parasocial and what it, yeah, offers those poems or [00:33:00] to your poetry in general.

So So yeah, I had my Mitski zine, which, um, was written basically mostly, um, in an April 30 for 30 kind of thing. Um, I was in a lot of like emotional pain, um, very turbulent moment in my life that hasn't really stopped being turbulent. Um, and, uh, you know, I was listening to Laurel Hill just like constantly, constantly, um, Uh, and I, I really like using music, um, in broader pop culture in my poems cause I don't, I don't get out much.

Um, um, and especially where I live now, I'm quite isolated from other, uh, people, um, who are not my family members. [00:34:00] Um, and so, uh, a lot of the kind of company I keep. Is sort of the TV and music I listen to, um, and, uh, I, I feel like I wasn't as interested in like, kind of like writing Mitski beside me in that sort of way, but I was interested in the way that her voice is a voice I hear more than Um, other voices, maybe my own even, um, and so it, it was, it got to a point where it's like, I, I didn't, I wasn't really able to write poems without that kind of, um, interruption of her voice, um, sort of like, uh, it came, became like a, like, sort of like, like a heartbeat, sort of.

Like hearing her music as I was thinking and processing, um, uh, and yeah, it was fun. It was, you know, it was just a fun project, um, to do, um, but I, I don't like, I don't like my, my [00:35:00] tendency towards the parasocial. I don't like how obsessive I am. Um, I would like to not be that way. Um, And so, uh, I've been writing poems that are, um, kind of like, uh, so Itzel Edman, legendary poet, art philosopher.

I've been reading a lot of her work and, um, you know, she writes about art so beautifully. She writes about obsession, um, and she writes through her obsessions and she creates these incredible things, um, from them. And I was like, well, like, loved Mount Tamal, PA, and she loved Cezanne and Picasso, and I love Mitski and Supernatural

Um, and so I, I've been trying to sort of find a more critical edge when I'm writing about these sort of figures. Um, and [00:36:00] so, uh, the it's other than Mitski poem that I have now, um, is really Mooney and really loving. Um, But I, I do have drafts of ones that are more, um, kind of like heartbroken, um, and critical.

Um, I just finished, um, Hanif Abdurraqib's new book, uh, There's Always This Year, um, and the chapters about it's, you know, it's a basketball book, um, but it's a Hanif book, so it's not, you know, it's tender and gorgeous and heartbreaking and like the most incredible, like poetic prose, you know. Um, but the chapters about, um, LeBron James, leaving Ohio are like, just so devastatingly beautiful and just the most poignant kind of meditations on longing and heartbreak and the desire to stay and return and be in a place with others.

[00:37:00] It's just, it's so beautiful. And, you know, I'm reading this book and I'm like, man, this is like parasocial handbook. Like, I love Hanif's work and partially it's because he writes about these sort of parasocial relationships in a way that feels dignified. Yeah. Um,

I, I write a lot about friendship. Um, and I think it does make sense that I've started to write a lot about parasocial too, because a lot of my friendships are because of the art that we engage with together. Um, And I've written about friendship breakups and heartbreak. And so I'm trying to, how do I, uh, I don't know, intellectualize myself out of obsession.

Oh, good. Well, if you, if you think of anything, please let me know. I would love to intellectualize myself out of obsession too. Yeah. When you said summer, like that you don't particularly like, Okay. like this [00:38:00] part of you maybe that gravitates towards the parasocial. I'd love to hear more about that. And then I also wanted to hold for a second, like just the whole idea of like friendship or loneliness or being alone.

Because I think when, when we decided on this topic and I was doing my like really early research, like without having talked to Jodi yet, one of the things I was thinking about was like, and when, when I, when we were asking the question of like, how do we all define the parasocial? I felt like, I don't know, almost like important to say, like, This is so like, it's so resonant what you're sharing, because like, I don't know, I, I moved from um, Toronto to Jeddah.

So I, I lived most of my teenage life, I don't think I like talk about this publicly very often, but I lived most of my teenage life in Saudi Arabia in Jeddah from Jeddah. the ages of 10 or 11 to 18. It's like really formative years where I was kind of honestly like really a loner. Like I had really strict parents.

I [00:39:00] was living in this country where there were no movies. Sometimes there was TV. I was just I only really had the internet for like most of that time and I really feel like a lot of people relate to this but like growing up with the internet as like one of your like teachers like really does something to the brain and to like really just like how close up it feels like your personhood is to like technology or is like to online I feel so shared in that sense and like There's a particular kind of, I think, loneliness that parasociality assages, and I think, honestly, saves lives.

Like it, it really, like, offers something when there is very little else, when you are in a space that is forever there. For whatever reason kind of isolated like it really is, um, quite important, I think, to allowing a sense of agency or allowing a sense of self to still flourish. So I was just [00:40:00] thinking about all of that.

And just like, um, and also like the dignity in the parasocial, and like how, like, I don't know. Like, this is not a new thing, I think. Like, parasocial relationships have existed since, like, Dante was fangirling over Virgil in, like, Inferno. Like, like, he, you know, he was obsessed with, um, this poet, and then he decided to write, like, a really famous book that is essentially fanfic about a poet that he loves.

Um, Bible and Virgil combined. And, and I think that that's like, the dignity is offered sometimes to those, to certain figures, not to, not to maybe say anything against, um, Against, uh, Dante or Hanif, but it's like, who is allowed that dignity? Absolutely. Right, like, why isn't, like, the random person writing really really good, like, [00:41:00] BTS fanfiction in, like, some Minnesota town offered Like why is that offered shame and then this is offered dignity like it's like high and low art kind of thing, but it's like who values what maybe yeah, and you know I think the low art thing is something that I'm really attached to.

In that like, I, I, I, I, poetry theoretically is normally considered a high art, I guess, but I think the poetry that people maybe talk about a lot is the poetry to consider low art, like Instagram poets, and like Rupi Kaur, and just kind of, um, Uh, like, Mary Oliver slander, you know, kinds of things, which, yeah, that was crazy.

Oh my goodness. What was going on there? You know, not to, but, um, and like, okay, speaking of Mary Oliver, someone who, like, every person I have, told to read Mary [00:42:00] Oliver, they've been like, wow, I don't want to kill myself anymore. You know, not to be crass. Like, I think that there is like, um, a life saving, um, uh, parasociality with Miss, Miss Mary Oliver.

May she rest in peace. May she rest in peace. But, uh, yeah, I think, um, to kind of jump back to the earlier, like why I don't want that kind of obsessive relationship. Um, I'm on my phone a lot. Um, I'm on my phone all the time. I'm on screens all the time. Um, and sometimes I'll be like, I'm going to turn off my phone for a little bit and like, read a book.

Um, But then I sever myself from, um, friendship, communication, knowledge of the world, um, and, uh, I would, I would love to be in a place in my life where I, I don't need those kind of, um, [00:43:00] handholds. of, uh, kind of like the way that like obsessive relationships to art have kind of filled the spaces of like loneliness and like sense of displacement, um, in my personhood.

Um, yeah, like I, I love, I love having a good time and reading Haikyuu five times in one month. Um, but it's like, I did that because I was like really lonely and really sad and I needed something to help me like. encouraged me to take care of myself, which it did. IQ is life changing. Um, it is good for the spirit.

Um, and there are things that are not good for the spirit, uh, like supernatural. I

feel like this is bringing me and my mind to talking about Senayi and how do I look and those poems. [00:44:00] Totally. I think that that's, that's exactly where it was taking me to. So Senie's book, How Do I Look, published by Metatron Press in, I don't know when actually, 2018 maybe? Maybe 2017? Amazing book, blurbed by Mitski also, if we're continuing the powers of the universe circling us.

But she also writes like in this register, I feel of like bringing, and we've been talking about high art, low art, like bringing the things that she loves into, into poems to try to like understand what they like mean to her. Like a lot of her poems are, are titled after movies. Um, and they're all prose poems, which, which is like a nice little tickle to follow later.

Cause I wanted to ask you about prose poems too, but why don't you share why you love that book? I feel like she is the person who kind of did the things that I wanted to do. And I was so, um, enamored that there was a model with [00:45:00] sort of, um, which to build on. Um, when I, uh, you know, I think I first saw one of her poems in Canthias, um, which another connection, um, And, uh, and I read it and I was like, I said, I got to get our book right away.

Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I, I love prose poems. I'm so drawn to them. Um, I think there's a frantic energy to them that feels very in line with both like kind of just my general vibe and, um, why I come to writing. Um, and I think that, uh, I just love the book. I love all of the different ways that she moves through the movies and things that she is.

Talking about, um, some of it is like, sort of, uh, an encompassing of a moment in her life. Some of it is critique, um, My favorite poems in the books are, in the book are actually the ones that aren't movie or TV or, uh, [00:46:00] like art related. They're the, um, flora, fauna in the desert. Um, those are my favorite. Um, I think that she does this incredible job with, uh, I think it's sort of, it's sort of like the Kenma thing.

Like moving the sort of constructed world of art into our natural environment and envisioning it as if it were real. Like, cinematizing our world, sort of. Um, and I just, I love those poems. Like, I always think of, um, the line in the desert. Um, What do you want to be when you rot? I want flowers seeping out of my jaw, snaking around my bones.

I want something to grow out of me. It's like, it's just like a four line poem and it's so impactful to me. It's so vivid and it, and it feels sort of like, um, at the end of, um, hours and hours and hours of sort of obsessive, hyper fixated state. Um, that sense of bodily rot, um, [00:47:00] um, imagining something new from it.

Um, and yeah, I just, I was so drawn to it. I've read it a million times since I've gotten it and I recommend it to so many people. I adore Senna. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I, I try to read books that are mostly prose poems a lot, both in that, just like to learn from, but also to feel better about the fact that it's just the form that I gravitate towards, um, and so it was probably one of the more, like, kind of, uh, exciting and empowering texts that I've spent time with.

Um, I think my, the rest of my career will just be like, stealing Senna's, goodbye. Perfect. I think she will be happy to hear that. She's so sweet. So bright person. Um, I'm really curious about one thing you said just now about like, um, prose poems, uh, maybe shed light on like what brought you to [00:48:00] writing in general.

Could you say more about that? Yeah. Um, so Um, I was always, I was always like a bookish kid, you know, writing little short stories. Um, but, um, when I was in high school, and I was on tumblr. com. Um, I was really into this show called Supernatural. Have you ever heard of it? Yeah. It's come up once or twice. And, um, uh, I think a lot of the technical creative skills that I have come from being in fandom.

Like I know how to edit videos because of YouTube. Disney Channel fandom on YouTube. I know how to use Photoshop because of Tumblr. I know how to, you know, these kinds of things. Um, Mm-Hmm? . Mm-Hmm. . And so, um, uh, you know, people make like gyp sets on Tumblr, um, of, you know, characters and relationships and things, and they'll put poems.

Um, [00:49:00] and, um, I'd always like wanted to be into poetry because I was like, I feel like I'm like really sad and moody and that would be like, good for me as like kind of, yeah, like 15 year old girl. Um, and so I was like, I don't really know how to find poetry that like, it feels good on my brain or like hits the thing.

Um, and luckily, um, Mr. Richard Saikin's work all over, all over Tumblr. There he is. Um, you're in a car with a beautiful boy. Um, and, uh, that was like, his work was really big and supernatural. Um, and, um, specifically like Destiel. Um, I do want to, I need to state that for the record. Um, Yeah, just to clear your name up.

Accidental. I'm not the other one. Not the other one. Oh god, I hope no one thinks it's the other one. So, [00:50:00] uh, you know, like, me and my friends were like, ah, it's crazy, beautiful words. And I bought the book, um, uh, Crush, um, and I uh, read it, and um, it was kind of the first time that I understood um, what poetry is.

Could be and what potential there is. Um, the Louise Gluck's introduction is actually very impactful for me. The way it begins just this is a book about panic. Um, and I was like, well, I'm always panicking. I'm always anxious. I'm always like, so just like overwhelmed 99, 000 percent on edge. Um, and, and to see panic interpolated in this way.

I was like, wow. maybe poetry is something that can help me. Um, and so, uh, um, a lot of my like Tumblr friends, you know, we all tried to write like our little Tumblr poetry. A lot of it was also just like about supernatural,[00:51:00]

but eventually I, uh, wrote about myself. Um, I did slam when I was in college. Um, and so I think a lot of my kind of. beginnings was twofold, was fandom, and how do you, engaging with poetry through TV, basically, um, and like, how can I, how can I understand this poem through an existing art? Um, and then it was slam, so how do I, write about myself in a way that is, um, um, understandable to an audience in those three minutes that I am allowed on stage where no one can look anything up and they're going to judge me.

I come to it from this fandom space. I am trained in writing in a space in which, how do you, how do you [00:52:00] relate to a majority? And so the language of pop culture is just. It is my, it is my language. Um, I feel very like, feel more girlsy in that way. Um, that's my, that's my little poetic journey. I

was just gonna ask about kind of prose poems becoming, uh, in the right container for these feelings of fandom or obsession, um, and also like frantic kind of panic vibe. Yeah, uh, I love prose poem. Um, I love Um, I love the way that it can join something that is scattered. Um, I think that there's a rhythm of the container, the kind of like way in which it is smushed together, um, can make those logical leaps feel really, um, true, um, and exciting.

I think that there's like, uh, there's a [00:53:00] stream of consciousness that I'm really, um, I, that appeals a lot to me. Um, and there's like a storytelling that. in that stream of consciousness. It, it, um, I don't want to say it's like, like the easy way out because there is a skill to a prose poem. Um, and not every problem should be one.

Um, and I do like to play a form in other ways. And I, I do know like, um, kind of like the, the way in which form and content must care for each other. Right. Um, But, uh, yeah, I like, I just, I feel really excited when I read a really good prose poem, because I feel like it's a lot of feelings at once, um, kind of like, Thumped into me.

Um, I like that sense of overwhelm. It's, it's one of the things I gravitate towards in all types of writing, like in prose as well. Like, I love, I love feeling like a, like a, like a cool wave is washing over me [00:54:00] as I am sitting with this work. And, yeah, I, it's just, it's the form that's, I'm having a blast, I haven't written a non prose poem in like a year, um, but I should push myself, but, um, yeah.

I mean, I think that there's something about, there's nothing more lovely, I think, as a reader than noticing that the writer is like enjoying themselves. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel that when I read, like, Nur Naga's book is coming to my brain, if an Egyptian cannot speak English, because there's just something very, like, I think, rich that happens when you can tell that somebody is, like, invested in what they're touching, almost.

And I, I completely, like, agree with you also that there's something about the prose poem form that, like, that, that, like, I'm making, like, a square hand gesture. Like, like, there's, like, uh. Condensing that it allows, it like pushes things really [00:55:00] close together. I think if you put poetry in a sentence, something weird happens, like something, it's like the, You know, we have this idea of poetry being one thing and prose being one thing, which to a certain, like, lived extent is true.

Like, they are two different things. And then when they come together, it's like very powerful in that way. That's what form maybe dictates or changes. And that's why if you put any poem into a prose poem, it will change. It will change in that like, very eerie kind of weird cinematic way. Yeah, I love, I love prose poems too and this is making me want to go back to writing them.

But yeah, I feel like I don't think of prose poems as not having line breaks like it's still Like it still has to end and, um, I think, yeah, I just think of it as having like more edges. I'm making the same square shape, just has more edges to push up against. Um, and I, I'm also, I feel one of my engines in my poetry [00:56:00] is definitely like desire and longing and obsession and prose poems have also been a place for me to like give form to that longing that feels like the right shape for it, sort of this like desire that is always reaching beyond the constraints of the world.

Or like the form that it's been given trying to extend beyond that and this kind of like restless. Yeah, like internally kind of tense or like contradictory kind of way. Yeah. And very overwhelming. Just yeah, like the sentences follow each other and yeah, like almost contradicting the way that there, there's an expectation of like linearity or like that the associates, the associations aren't going to be like too wild, but then when it transcends that, just like, yeah, everything that a prose poem can, can hold, um, yeah, that really amazing.

In talking about parasociality and especially [00:57:00] with you, Summer, like there's something to be said about that connection between Richard Seiken's work, and the way the Supernatural fandom took it up. There's something to, I think, the nexus where that happened, where Supernatural, in many different ways, took up Crush.

Like so deeply and then the like back and forth Richard Seiken had with the fandom, which I find so fascinating. The book, uh, is generally popular too in like poetry and it has like many, I feel like it has many poetic lineages. I just, I don't know. There's, there's something to like, we're talking about longing and we're talking about pain and loneliness.

And I think many of those things come across in this book. Would you also like, like Senayu's book? Um, He's a kind of origin. And so I guess I was, I was interested in that. You know, I think it's interesting because of, um, you know, 'cause seconds, you know, he's online, [00:58:00] you know, he's, he's, he's tweeting and it's gotten to the point where he doesn't really tweet except to reply to people, which I think is, it's cool.

He's like very Bill. I think like the thing is like there are more poets on Twitter than people realize. Like, I have rituals with, like, two Pulitzer Prize winners on Twitter. com, like, it's, it's not that crazy of a thing, like, it's, they're, they're just on the computer. Of course they are. But it, it was a really interesting kind of revelation to see how many people did not engage with his work outside of its, its kind of, like, reassigned context.

Of fandom and there's their ships and things like that. Right. Um, never maybe picked up a copy of the book and just kind of looked on Goodreads and for the quotes and things like that. Um, and sort of, um, my own kind of shock at that [00:59:00] and thinking like, um, I don't know, like, not everyone has to be into poetry, but there is, like, an interesting thing where it's like, are you not curious what is, like, behind this quote?

Like, um, the poem that is quoted most often is, like, a four page poem, um, you know? And, uh, I love, I love Crush, and I love War of the Foxes. Sometimes I like War of the Foxes, his second book, more than I like Crush. Um, I'm really excited for his next book, because it's gonna be fucking prose poems. It's gonna be some indie prose poems.

I'm so excited. You know, it's like sometimes, sometimes it felt like, um, creating work in fandom was kind of like critical work. It was like, it's like you were, when you do a fan video, it's like a thesis. statement about these characters in this music and you're creating an argument and, and sometimes I would be like frustrated by like, well, that's just like lazy.

There's dudes in a car, the emotional, the emotional undercurrent isn't there. And there is a [01:00:00] huge parasocial aspect to that. I, I am obsessed with the way that everyone needs him to like the things that they like. Um, I, there's uh, kind of like two types of fandom, like transformational and affirmational.

Um, and transformational is like, or transformative is like what I've normally been in, which is like, like, fanfiction, art, things like that. And then affirmational, um, is more like, um, uh, like, fan theories and like going to like the panels and kind of like relationship with the creator Q& A kind of things.

Um, and a lot of affirmational fandom is like, like, tell me I'm right, tell me I'm right. Um, and it's super fascinating to see people sort of projecting Um, an affirmational fandom onto Richard Seiken for things that he did not create. Like he, he doesn't, like, you [01:01:00] don't need to ask him about like, NBC Hannibal, like you can feel however you want about it.

He didn't make it. Like he can't tell you if you're right or wrong. He didn't make it. He's just the guy who watches TV. Um, and it's so, it's so fascinating to me. I, I kind of love it. Um, it's as like a, like kind of like anthropological sort of like distant witnessing. Um, but yeah, I, um, I think Crush is a really interesting text in that it, it is both formative for kind of like the casual reader of poetry as well as the poet, um, and it is not often, um, maligned in the way that other, uh, maybe popular texts, um, with the casual reader of poetry are.

Malign's like in this high art, low art kind of way. This is raising a question for me, for both of you. Maybe this [01:02:00] is just revealing my not on Tumblr, don't really know how Tumblr works. But how, Yeah, how, how do you interact with, like, the people on Tumblr who are sharing your work or quoting your work and maybe, I don't know, if it's misattributing or just, like, attributing their own context or, like, projecting a different context or projecting onto you even as, like, the creator of that work, like, what kind of relationship do you have with those people?

I lurk so no one knows that my blog is me. Um, if they really wanted to find out, they probably could. But, uh, for the most part, I just, I search my name, and then I read all the reblog tags and see what people are saying. Um, there's not a lot, but there's a lot of, like, Palestinian poets kind of, like, roundups that my work will be in.

Um, yeah. There'll be poems shared in the context of like, like resistance or like, uh, you know, like sharing this [01:03:00] poem is good kind of things, which I always think is fascinating. I love to read the tags on some of my like more, uh, obvious Palestine poems when they're kind of like people who probably just like really diligent with their tagging or it's like Geopolitical issues.

I'm like, that's not true. It's simply not true. Thank you. No, it's not true. One thing that I did find super interesting was there was a blog that posted excerpts from my book. Um, The Zelda book. Um, but they didn't say like the titles of the poems. They just said the, um, like the title of the book. So it's like a quote, like excerpt of a poem and then the title of the book.

And so, um, I saw one of the excerpts reposted on Twitter and I was like, this is super interesting because I think that the person who's posting it on Twitter doesn't know that This title is not the name of this poem. This title is the name of the book and this [01:04:00] poem that they are sharing is a much larger poem that like I don't, you know, like the kind of like interesting kind of like levels of decontextualization.

Um, I don't mind, but it is like really fascinating. Um, uh, just to kind of like the way it's like how many times will that happen? Yeah. Where like, yeah, um, but I do like it when people tag fictional characters, um, in the columns. That's kind of what I write for. That's what I'm waiting for. There's so many characters I've never heard of you in my whole life, but I'm so happy.

This person is like so excited to attribute this to their favorite guy. Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel the same. I think I have like different relationship depending. I feel very like this is the same about the decontextualized thing. I think there's like one line of the end of one poem from my book that [01:05:00] went viral on Tumblr and then it just went out like it was like out.

It's not even about me anymore. Like not about my book, not about me. It's just about these two lines that people are just taking in a totally different way. And it's very, it's again, like very anthropologically fascinating because it's like almost not even about the words anymore. It's just that like, people are able to take something out of this that they found resonant.

Usually with Tumblr, I have a very affable disposition. Nostalgia for, for the whole platform. So I feel, and I'm also like a lurker, like I'm never wanting anyone to ever find my Tumblr and I'm very pleased with that. Um, I hope nobody ever does, but then with Instagram, I think I get annoyed actually. So I have a very different relationship.

Based on platform as well when people like those fucking big ass poetry accounts. I'm my Thing is my name Literally, I [01:06:00] just get I just get a little bit irritated about what are like the politics of accreditation or like at what point? Are you really like? What do you, what are you using this for? I think that matters to me.

I think when it's like Tumblr poetry blogs, I'm like, go off. I love you guys. Have fun. When it's like Instagram poetry accounts, I get, I get annoyed. There's no monetization on Tumblr. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Maybe that's it. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Somebody else monetizing themselves off of my mm-Hmm. Poetry annoys me. Yeah. Yeah.

Makes sense. My favorite way I've seen poems used in fandom is, uh. As like fan vids, like fan edits. Like with a poem being read instead of a song. Um, it's just like kind of one of the most beautiful engagements with poetry I've ever seen. Um, actually, um, and it feels so like meaningful in a way that I, I don't know.

I just love it when people find new ways to engage with [01:07:00] poetry and I think that's the other thing about it feeling better on Tumblr than Twitter or Instagram. Where like I think that there's a, a consumptive relationship on Instagram. Yeah. On Twitter, it feels like I'm selling myself, because I'm like, look at me, look at me, look at me, I published a poem.

Instagram, it's like, someone is like, aestheticizing. And then on, but on Tumblr, it feels like, I'm feeling with this, I'm engaging with it, and then people are taking it, and like, creating these like, cross medium contexts and like critical engagements. And I think it's cool. Right. It's almost like the difference between like commodification and collaboration.

Very different ways of engaging.

So to close us off, Summer, would you like to read one of your poems from the Edelweiss Adnan series and maybe share a bit about which [01:08:00] poem you chose? Yeah. You know what, I'll read the Mitzki poem because we've talked about her so much and I feel like, um, it is indicative of the series at large, which is titled, I Tell Little and None About Supernatural.

But, uh, yeah, here we go. I tell little and none about Mitzki. Your name in everyone's mouth, the everyone in question are those who look at me and when I look back, yes, there is recognition. How many do you know you made feel this way? You change me, the way I consider the fog, my attention to death, a desire for the surreal right where I stand.

I have loved so many prophetic women. At night, we dream any tomorrow that could mundanely be. Do you trust anxious intuition that looks in the future with a nervous throat? Sometimes, what looks back is as affirming as it is warning. You know what this path can [01:09:00] bring. And so, I listen to her sing. I am fulfilled by the knowing, another recognition.

It changes me, the way I consider pretty. My attention to sunlight and how it hits the trees. A desire for what you create to not consume you. A desire to create through the consumption. A desire to live past the consumption. A desire for death. A desire for desire. Desire. A desire. A desire.

Beautiful. Thank you so much. I'm also like thinking about your poem and the transformational, the transformational relationships and the like, you changed me and the repetition of like, yeah, transforming through kind of the repetition and the burrowing through desire. I'm going to go back to it later.

Yeah, just to say on that poem, You know, it's, it's about influences, but, uh, I, I, whenever I read it anywhere or like [01:10:00] acknowledge it, you know, it's about, it's about then it's about Mitski, but it's also about like, just for Zola, who is like one of the most formative poets on my life. One of the most formative people in my life, like my best friend, like dear sister friend.

Um, and in all of the ways in which, uh, these artists who I'm distant from change me and impact me and kind of, you create a sort of guide for me in my like, artistic path, like Jess does that for me, both artistically and like kind of personally. Um, and so I, I always like, just like to say that there's a secret third person.

It's in this sort of, like, lineage of, um, influence in, in that way. That's so beautiful. Oh, I love that so much. Yeah. The secret third person, my best friend. Yay![01:11:00]

Hey, thanks for listening to this episode on the parasocial with Summer Farrow. If you liked this episode, I encourage you to share it with friends. Poet and non poet friends alike, and to please leave a review, comment, or rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening. Don't forget to click that follow button too, so you don't miss our next episode.

Poet Talk is produced and created by me, Sana Awani, and co hosted by me, Jodi Chan. The show music includes songs from the album, Elise's Awesome Dance Adventure by Komiku, including Elise's theme as the intro, and a calm moment to remember before taking the dangerous road as the outro. The transitional music is an anarchist utopia and that weird feeling when you understand that you are alone in the only hope.

You can learn more about Komiku at loyaltyfreakmusic. com. For more information and to support Poet Talk, you can [01:12:00] visit our website, poettalk. buzzsprout. com or follow us on Instagram at TalkPoet. Okay, that's all for now. Thanks for listening! Bye! Bye bye! Bye bye! Bye bye! Bye bye!

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