Unveiling the Craft of Indie Screenplays Through a Director's Eye

Capturing the essence of indie filmmaking, we explore screenwriting with Indeana Underhill, a seasoned Los Angeles DP and co-founder of Cinematography for Actors. Fueled by her curiosity about crafting a screenplay, we laugh at industry quirks and emphasize the screenplay's vital role in on-set decisions. Our discussion blends seasoned experience with fresh perspective, as I share insights and Indeana reflects on her journey into storytelling.

We delve into the dance between screenwriters and directors, discussing how writing influences a film's direction and whether scripts should allow for improvisation. Addressing formatting challenges, I share my experiences from behind the camera, balancing descriptive detail with cinematic interpretation to highlight the unspoken language of scripts that shapes shot planning and narrative pace. Join us for this enlightening journey through the nuances of writing and formatting film scripts from a unique behind-the-camera perspective.

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A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers

More on:
IG: @indiewoodpod
YT: Cinematography for Actors

In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.

Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.

Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.

"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:30

this is episode two of season one of the andy wood podcast, where we talk about indie film and, uh, the many hats that indie filmmakers wear. Welcome indy. Thank you for coming back on, of course. Uh, just give me like a one sentence blurb about you, just to reintroduce folks that didn't watch episode one.

Speaker 3: 0:49

Hi everyone. My name's Indiana and I am a DP based in Los Angeles. Originally from Canada, I'm also the co-founder of Cinematography for Actors that specializes in bridging the gap between talent and crew. That's where we are shooting today at the CFA studio and I am delighted to be a resource for you, Yaro, on your first season of IndieWood I'm excited to have you on and the first episode.

Speaker 1: 1:10

We talked about your workflow and some interesting kind of things that you bring to your projects that make them better. But today we're going to talk about screenwriting.

Speaker 3: 1:19

Yeah, I'm excited.

Speaker 1: 1:20

And I think screenwriting is just fundamental to every job on set. And some people are like no, I don't read the script, I just come in and I put up lights and I feel like the folks who do read whatever pages you have for the day or, even better, the whole script, they can understand the whole cake.

Speaker 1: 1:42

I guess let's go with the cake analogy, the whole cake and uh, make better, uh decisions for their section of the cake, like frosting or the batter or the you know decorations. So, uh, let's start with what is your experience with screenwriting and how do you implement into your workflow?

Speaker 3: 2:02

it's really funny. I have two things here quick things, hopefully. Um. I just saw american fiction, which was amazing, uh, but they have a whole joke in there about, um. I think the literary agent is based in chicago and they're talking about how this director is going to turn it into a movie and they were worried about him like finding out some stuff in the plot, um, but they made a joke saying you know, the executives aren't even reading the scripts, it's just summarized by assistants. The whole town runs off book reports and I found that hilarious first of all, it's so true, everyone gets cliff notes.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 3: 2:35

And the second piece of my experience with screenwriting is I am technically dating a screenwriter now, that's true, who is now directing but is trained, who went to the screenwriting program at afi, and so I get to hear about I'm only now learning about that process more and more and also get to see him in action when writing and how he's blocking it out and the note cards and stuff and so it's very new to me.

Speaker 3: 2:56

I feel completely uncomfortable with great, this is a perfect second episode yes, yeah, because I feel very uncomfortable with I wouldn't even know how to sit down and I would know to maybe do an outline, but I wouldn't know how to sit down and actually format it or write it out or how you do dialogue like I it's.

Speaker 1: 3:12

It's a mystery to me so here's uh, a weird secret that nobody from the screenwriting world from the screenwriting world will ever tell you, and, uh, I'll probably have to fight for my life after I reveal this hidden gem. You do what you want.

Speaker 1: 3:29

You just make it up. You have your own workflow Granted when you're first starting, I think it's very important to understand the fundamentals Acts, sequences, scenes, scenes, beats, uh, motivations, character interactions. You know how act one relates to act three, how the first half of the film relates the second half of the film. Those are really important things to learn yeah and then, for example, how do you outline? It's like well, how do you want to outline?

Speaker 1: 4:00

right you know, I think if you in, if you maintain those like um fundamental chunks of your screenwriting process, you can modify it in any way you see fit great, yeah, I actually want to interrogate you about it because please do are you looking at the page count to know when act one is done in act two and act three?

Speaker 1: 4:19

Yes, I do. Well, in the beginning, right as I kind of got out of grad school, I did a lot more, and I think maybe before grad school too, because I was kind of self-trained before I jumped into UCLA and I wasn't great but I wasn't bad. Like you know, I wrote stuff. It was bad, but I wrote stuff. And so initially it was like, okay, well, I'm getting to. You know, I wrote stuff, it was bad, but I wrote stuff. And so initially it was like, okay, well, I'm getting to.

Speaker 1: 4:47

You know this, this transition in my act, I I can't, you know, do anything else in this moment. Or it's like, oh, my inciting incident is, you know, five pages too early or five pages too late. And so after I got out of grad school, I was like, oh, I can, I, I know the rules. Now I should be, you know, do this more. But what I learned through kind of working on my own scripts and seeing what's successful or not and I've had some success which has been really cool is that it's more of a guideline, and that's what all these filmmaking rules are. It's like we learn them in order to understand how to make movies, but then, when we get to making movies. They're guidelines.

Speaker 1: 5:28

This is art, you don't. You know, we don't all paint like rembrandt, we don't all paint like uh, picasso or sorry da vinci. You know they, they made these fundamental rules for art. But then people went in like, hey, I'm just gonna make boxes, you know. And Mondrian's like, look, it's a box that's red and blue and there's a line between it. Now it's art, and so you make up your own rules within the guidelines of these kind of foundational Truths that we've all learned. And so for screenwriting. Now, when I get to, let's say, my first act break, that is usually within 25 to 35 pages like it falls within that 10 page.

Speaker 1: 6:09

You know, because I've you'll, you'll notice. I mean, I do this with films all the time. Uh, when you hit the 20 minute mark, it's like you're in it, and for me I have this rule if I get past 20 minutes, I'll watch a film, if I don't, I'm never going to go back to it right there's been a couple of uh, a couple of uh, what's it called exceptions to that rule, but I won't name them.

Speaker 1: 6:31

In case, uh in case, I'll have to work with those folks in the future do you think that based on you say 25 to 35 pages? That's the range for act one.

Speaker 3: 6:40

Do you think genre changes that? Do you think comedy you're 25 pages or drama you're 35?

Speaker 1: 6:46

I think it's story dependent. Maybe there'll be a shift of a couple pages here and there for genre, but I think it's story dependent. Some stories want things to happen sooner, some stories want things to happen later, and this happens a lot with my inciting incident is sometimes it's it's supposed to quote unquote be on page 12. Right, that that's kind of the golden rule, but honestly, sometimes you want it to happen on six yeah sometimes it happens a little later.

Speaker 1: 7:15

But when you kind of shift that rule, for example that inciting incident, when you shift it to later or earlier in the script, there has to be I don't want to say motivation, but there has to be a reason yeah right, so you can't just be like, oh it's going to happen earlier, so it's more exciting. No, why is it happening earlier? You know, what are you putting in that space that the inciting incident should be in?

Speaker 1: 7:40

and are you spending enough time setting up your story, so there's things to consider are you, when you're writing, say you're not directing something that's?

Speaker 3: 7:48

that you've written um, there's a story of greta gerwig for little women, um, and they were doing rehearsals because, on dialogue, wise um people, the sisters were talking over each other and so it's written like there would be three people talking at the same time, two people talking, and you had to get it right with your cues.

Speaker 3: 8:04

If you're not directing something you've written, are you trying to relay that in your story, to have it told that way? Or, as a writer, when you give a script away you're like I don't really care, like how do you write? I guess my question is fast dialogue and how do you make sure that it's interpreted that way?

Speaker 1: 8:19

you know, for me, I think I'm different, because I write stories where people listen and so there isn't ever a overlap. And so whenever there is something that happens, at least for my stories, it's always an interruption. But I, you know, looking at that script and and scripts that have overlapping dialogue, the story I keep hearing is nobody wants to like read it, you know. So minimize your overlapping dialogue because it's annoying. However, uh, you know, for a film like maestra, which has a lot of dialogue happening all at once, it's a a tool in the screenwriter's tool belt, but it should never be overused. Um, because once you start overusing it, things get really muddy and complicated and exhausting for the listener. And I think when you translate that to a directorial thing, you know it's, are they overlapping because you're trying to show off, or are they overlapping because it's the moment calls for it, the story calls for it?

Speaker 3: 9:20

Got it.

Speaker 1: 9:20

And so when it does happen, you know you have this formatting thing in dialogue, where the dialogue isn't under each other, it's next to each other and, um, a lot of folks use that and it works and I think if you have something that intentionally must be said over each other, then you deliver it in that way. But if there's room for you know exploring then, then you don't.

Speaker 3: 9:43

Psychologically, are you trying to manipulate the director to direct the film a certain way?

Speaker 1: 9:47

based off of how you're writing it. Oh yeah, I am like because, being a director wearing many hats and kind of being my own creative, I feel like I'm manipulating people into and that's what it is creative. I feel like I'm manipulating people into and that's what it is.

Speaker 1: 10:05

Screenwriting is a manipulation because you're trying to convey what you see in your head to somebody else and when people are like, oh no, I'm a screenwriter, I don't direct, but you are Like you are creating a scene, you're creating blocking, like you're basically building the blueprint. A lot of people call screenplays blueprints. You're building the blueprint for a film. Doesn call screenplays blueprints. You're building the blueprint for a film. Doesn't matter if it's 25, 25 000 or 25 million dollars, like it's still the same, and I think that's just to digress a little bit. That's the cool thing about screenwriters is you can do that in a vacuum and you can make a $100 million movie.

Speaker 3: 10:37

Without having the budget? Without having the budget, what are some tips for manipulating the director in your writing?

Speaker 1: 10:45

Crap. See, I always just manipulate myself. Don't do camera. Direction Camera direction yeah, I've heard that, unless you are creating a production draft and you're the director.

Speaker 3: 10:56

Don't do camera direction um, because it turns people off of how they want to do it or it's, or it's taking away from the story uh, that okay, because you know, I I think from for me and I think there will be people that'd be like no, you're wrong.

Speaker 1: 11:10

Um, because welcome to film yes and welcome to any film, because everyone has their own rules. People don't necessarily hate it and maybe it'll take you out of the script, but it's. It's like you don't want to tell someone else how to do their job, and that's a very direct way of like hey, put the camera in the corner, shoot it this way.

Speaker 1: 11:25

But when I write stuff and I want things to look a certain way, I'll use it in a slug line. So, for example, I want to close up on an object or some eye, in my slug line I'll have, you know, a close-up eyeball and then I'll do a little action block to describe what's happening. You know, um, that's kind of you. You refine your storytelling approach to visually tell the story before you get into the dialogue got it.

Speaker 3: 11:53

Yeah, now drake and I'm always going to pronounce this wrong drake dormas, the director of um, like crazy and stuff. He is primarily improv, but he's a writer too, I didn't actually look up those scripts, but how do you write improv? Like is it that you write the scene and where it takes place, but then you say they talk about coffee or they talk about I think so I've never wrote improv yeah because I've always wanted my stories to be kind of intentional.

Speaker 1: 12:21

But this is the same thing that happened with gareth edwards first film he just did. The creator, which we spoke about last episode he, his first film, one of my favorite films has the best final line of dialogue in any movie I've ever seen uh, so we'll see it. Um, what is?

Speaker 3: 12:36

the movie.

Speaker 1: 12:37

It's called monsters monsters yeah, monsters, it's with scooby mcnerry and his wife, uh, whose name I can't remember, I'm so sorry. So they, it's a. It's a. It's a sci-fi story about this, this duo going home.

Speaker 1: 12:51

Along the way, they may or may not fall in love, and the whole thing's improv. And so, gareth edwards, he bought a camera. The story goes is he bought a camera, uh, pitched this to a production company. They gave him a hundred thousand dollars to go to mexico. He went to mexico, rented a van, got his two actors, got a fixer and audio guy, and that's it.

Speaker 3: 13:11

And he shot the whole thing and directed the whole thing himself yeah, I wonder, because you're like you probably still have at least the director, who's also the writer there, gareth, edwards, edwards. Even if you don't have an ad, you're still having to like board it out, like strip board or like create a schedule. So I imagine you need some sort of script or something to break it down right?

Speaker 1: 13:27

I'd love to talk to him about about it, but I know adobe did a couple of interviews with him about that kind of workflow and process. You know, for my approach, if I was to do an improv something that was improv I'd like to in the future it would be to outline it and give the story a scene structure. So we go from location A to location B and then this happens and give my actors parameters and kind of guardrails to work within and then just explore and have fun on the day.

Speaker 1: 13:59

I've always wanted to do like a. I guess it would be like a long take, but it's more of a theater performance that is recorded and then becomes a movie, and so like a long, 20, 30, 40 minute takes, but it's more of a theater performance that is recorded and then is becomes a movie, yeah, and so like a long, like 20, 30, 40 minute takes, just because it's theater and you can do that. Um, my questions for you are how do you utilize the script in your workflow?

Speaker 3: 14:20

depends on the dp. But for me personally you the script is the only thing I have to go from normally, um, because I don't work commercial, like I said, and so, um, it's not boarded out normally. Uh, for me and I I don't work with a lot of directors that come with an idea. They have an idea of what they want, but they don't, they haven't shot listed yet. It's more just me reading the script and talking about it.

Speaker 3: 14:39

And so I do two passes of a script. I do one where I don't make any notes and I just read through it and as an audience member. And then the second one I go through and I start to go like, here are the main characters, how are they kind of written about, what are the locations, what are the vibes, what has the director done in the past? And so I start to like inform the way that I would tell that story, based off of all of the stuff I can pull from the script and the director's private prior work. And so I actually, in the first pass of paying attention to dialogue, and in the second pass, I'm not paying attention to dialogue whatsoever, um, because I'm more trying to figure out how this would be shot feasibility, because I know, getting into an interview with that director, that producer, that the first thing they're going to ask me is, like, can you see us doing this in x amount of days? Would you be okay with a crew?

Speaker 3: 15:27

like this and they're going to ask me a lot of production related stuff rather than creative, because a lot of people, I think, assume that the director has all the answers, and I think they have all the answers to take in the right direction, but when actually filling in the answers of, like how we can achieve this or alternative ways, I think that's where I come in. So, yeah, I use it as my only tool at the beginning that I have to go from and kind of hopefully I'm on the same page with that director and if not, then and we're not looking like we're going to tell the same movie- maybe it's not the match, and that's totally cool, you know okay yeah is there anything with a screenplay, where you're reading it and you're like, oh, I don't understand enough about this structural part or something like functional about a screenplay.

Speaker 1: 16:10

That may not be crucial to the way you have your workflow set up but, you know, maybe beneficial to other people or you've seen other people kind of explore it's interesting I'm trying to think of, like recent scripts I've interviewed for, where I've read something and been like I'm gonna have to talk to them about that because I?

Speaker 1: 16:29

here's a question. So you have your traditional stuck line, which is interior or exterior, period location or multiples, you know location refinement. So yeah, bigger location, smaller location, so forth. And then, dare night, have you seen any slug lines? That were just unconventional, and three for a loop that's interesting.

Speaker 3: 16:53

I I think I'm trying to think of like the craziest scripts I've read. I think what I hate is it's always like this is my brain as a dp is. I think I'm reading a script and I look at it as like how we're going to block this out, or in a in a shooting schedule and how the director is going to block it out, and I hate when it says shooting schedule and how the director is going to block it out, and I hate when it says continued, like I hate when it goes interior, blah, blah blah continued and I'm like, oh, the AD is going to make that another scene or the director is going to talk about it in another, like block of setups, rather than us just looking at it as one scene.

Speaker 1: 17:21

When you say continued, is it the slug line?

Speaker 3: 17:25

Yeah, so it goes like interior living room and then we do a scene it says interior living room continued and I'm like why do we have that next thing? Because when we have a shooting script, that AD is going to block that as a separate scene. Yeah, they're going to in the strip board.

Speaker 1: 17:40

Well, see, I think this is where, for me, this is how I approach continued and how I use it.

Speaker 2: 17:45

Yeah, it's continued and how I use it.

Speaker 1: 17:45

Yeah, it's usually when I'm transferring locations, but the take doesn't stop. Yeah, right, so it's like we're going from bathroom to living room, to outside, and so I'll have those as separate slug lines with continued. But it's we're just running through and I think I've evolved a little bit in my writing to maybe not do that so much where I even just completely destroy my slug line, where I'll have my setup like interior bathroom, day right, and then I'll have my scene and then the character runs out too and I go dash, dash, and then the next slug line just says living room.

Speaker 3: 18:20

Yeah right.

Speaker 1: 18:21

And then I'll write a scene and then they go and then they run through the open door too, and then you know dash, dash, and then I'll go outside, right, so like it actually helps flow the story flow better, uh, from my, my opinion yeah um, and I think maybe would be a better use of continued, because sometimes you know you have continued like what's a separate scene?

Speaker 3: 18:44

yeah, exactly, if it's at the same time of day and I'm I'm looking at it like, okay, they just serve tea and now it's continued. Is it continued because they've been drinking tea and they're on their second pot, or is it like they're continued because now she's brought back the tea and they're in the living room again and we're just continued?

Speaker 1: 18:58

See the way I distinguish those kind of two different concepts is you know, either it'll flow into the next scene, like not audibly. But story-wise, yeah, flow into the next scene like not audibly but story-wise. Yeah, and it'll feel just like a continuation. Or I have this thing which is, I think, kind of annoying sometimes maybe for people to read where I'll have a scene, something happens, I'll get to the end and then, let's say, it cuts to 20 minutes later. Right, I'll just go. New slug line same scene later.

Speaker 3: 19:22

Got it Dash later yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:24

And then continue. And I think when you bog down people in information in your slug line, then it can lead to kind of people doing a double take, which you don't ever want to do on your screenplay.

Speaker 3: 19:38

Yes. Especially for when you're starting to hire people out and your HODs are reading it and just trying to figure out what kind of story you're telling before that first interview. Or you got the job and you're reading through it and you're just like, okay, where do I want to start here?

Speaker 2: 19:51

what's the?

Speaker 3: 19:52

most important thing is it breaking down the pacing and how much we're going to cover it, based off of the rules around pacing, because I see it's faster, I see there's a lot of description, so I know it's going to be slower. You know, I can like read a script and understand, I think, how quickly we're telling that story or how long we're in that scene, based off the description of, like poetry or you know, like we see.

Speaker 3: 20:12

you know cups on the table and the carpet is like there's a dirty stain in the corner and then I just know I'm like okay, so I'm going to have like eight closeup, I'm going to have like eight specials, or I'm going to have, like you know, all of this coverage because they, because they made a point to like you're talking about, they made a point to talk about it. Versus when there's no description and it's just like dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth for five pages.

Speaker 1: 20:45

Sometimes too much description can be. I think I don't want to say the evidence of a bad writer, because you know what I've read tinker taylor, soldier, spy, and it had blocks of text, I'm sorry, blocks of action, right and descriptor, and I was like man, that's dry, but it's a great film, oh so good, and I remember my first film, my first feature that I finished had like three pages of just this living room right and I read it and I was like damn, that's good, but also it's three pages of me describing the living room I mean every dp would read that

Speaker 3: 21:11

and be like okay, we're gonna be in the living room a while looking at it yeah, we're gonna have like a slow push in on the living room and then maybe cut away to some like specials, you know, so it's uh. Yeah, it's. It's funny because, as a director, as a writer, you're probably writing it just because you're like I want to remember that this is the world I want to create.

Speaker 2: 21:29

But as a.

Speaker 3: 21:29

DP. I'm reading it going like OK, that's our visual language, you know, like that's how long we're going to be holding on revealing what the living room is. So it's interesting.

Speaker 1: 21:51

I think for folks who are writing and directing and or shooting their own film, you know it's important to not only be clear for your story but also for the people you collaborate with. Having a good understanding of how other people and other creatives perceive your visuals, your story, your audio is just as important as a story itself, because you can have a great story and then people are reading it like I don't understand any of this.

Speaker 2: 22:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:14

That then can make or break your project. And I think you know, being concise and clear, not getting bogged down in, you know, over describing something, Because while people do it Tinker Tailor, Soldier, Spy those are also established writers who have the pull, I guess, to demand someone read their blocks of text.

Speaker 3: 22:37

absolutely um you want to hear something kind of fun, though. Yeah, so, um, what I've started to do with scripts that I x like shoot is um is I've started making them into books, and I give the director a book and ad a book and a producer the book of the script I like that and then on set it's soft cover and then on set I we have that as like our note bibles, so it's not just like printed out that you're leaving somewhere and it's folded up, it's actually into like a pocket book so I reformat it.

Speaker 3: 23:03

So it's like a five by six, like little pocket book yeah, so you have pages, yeah and uh, yes, and so you're just kind of like, like what sides would be, I guess, and stuff when they're printed. Yeah, and so I've started making that and I give it out to the HODs for fun, and then at the end I get everyone to sign it. I put it on a little shelf and I have all my stuff. So even for shorts I do it now.

Speaker 1: 23:21

That is so cool, and you? Know, I'm going to give everyone a hot tip on how to do that on a cheap. Some family scripts of mine, oh yeah, Because they've asked like go read it and I was like let me give you the book of it.

Speaker 3: 23:35

But yeah, I'll tell you the way of doing it cheap. So books can be expensive to make. They don't have to be. If you sign up for an Amazon KDP account, which is Kindle Direct Publishing, and you sign up and you, without publishing it, you upload that, It'll format it for you and then you print artist books and it's $2. Amazon ships it to you in two days, printed bound and with its own ISBN. If you end up publishing it but you won't publish it, it's like proofs, right yeah, and it sends to you and it's only like $2.

Speaker 3: 24:03

And then you can have your entire crew If you've 30 people you know it's 60 library In a book form, you can put it in a library and you can also have people with their own notes on it and like Sharpie and like this is for the DP and blah, blah, blah, and I make a cover. That, like is the title.

Speaker 1: 24:20

That is so cool and who the HODs are.

Speaker 3: 24:21

So people know on set and I find that really useful.

Speaker 1: 24:25

That is really useful. I think people treat screen be like oh, I'm a writer, so treat it with reverence, reverence, reverence, reverence, reverence, reverence.

Speaker 3: 24:38

I look to Jack because he knows all these things.

Speaker 1: 24:40

sometimes there's the pronunciation, but you know what it's important because it's so foundational and if we don't treat it better, I'm not saying like, put it on a pedestal or you know, just buy it dinner.

Speaker 3: 24:53

Yeah, like put on a pedestal or you know, just buy dinner. Yeah, yeah, exactly, feel good. Well, I just don't think it'll be all ripped up and stained on set if you have a cover on it, um, yeah and uh, and people will know that that's the script. You can pick it up and read it, um, but anyway.

Speaker 1: 25:05

So that's my fun little like I think, more people should do that go make books of your screenplays I think so well, next week we're going to talk about color grading. I think it's going to be exciting.

Speaker 3: 25:14

I have so many questions for you about this.

Speaker 1: 25:15

We're going to talk about inputs, color space delivery. I'm going to ask you about your fun.

Speaker 3: 25:25

Resolve inputs that. I learned about when we went to Keslo because I find that really interesting.

Speaker 1: 25:30

It's going to be exciting and I never know anything about it. Well, tune in. Next week We'll continue. Indie Wood season one. Thank you for listening to the Indie Wood podcast. You can find us on anywhere you find your podcasts and on Instagram at Indie Wood Pod. See you next time.

Speaker 2: 25:45

From the CFA Network, produced by Indiana Underhill and Hayley Royal, hosted by Yaroslav Altunen. Cinematography for actors is bridging the gap through education and community building. Find out about us and listen to our other podcast at cinematographyforactorscom.