Elevating Your Inde Film Through the Power of Sound Design

What if the key to elevating your indie film lies not in the visuals, but in the sounds you incorporate? This episode of the Indiewood Podcast promises to unlock the secrets behind the transformative power of music, sound design, and sound mixing in indie filmmaking. We break down how something as unexpected as layering breathing sounds can make a scene more intimate or using a train’s horn in a schoolyard can heighten tension, revealing how sound can manipulate audience emotions and enhance your storytelling.

Explore the indispensable role of music in film with us, from the beats of orchestral scores to the impactful use of needle drops. We dive into how music videos influence shot listing and choreography, and discuss whether minimal music can let your story speak for itself. We'll also critique the overuse of some sound design techniques and share ideas to create layered narratives that resonate with theatrical cues, all aimed to help your indie film stand out.

Building a thriving film community is vital, and we highlight the resources and organizations that can help you connect with fellow filmmakers. Referencing the film "Carol," we discuss creative directing techniques for emotionally charged scenes. Learn about tools like ShotDeck and Flimai for visual inspiration, and how collaborating with rental houses can open new doors. We also share practical networking tips for festivals and workshops, especially in vibrant film hubs like Los Angeles. Tune in as we wrap up this season and invite you to grow with us in the next.

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A Podcast for Indie Filmmakers

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YT: Cinematography for Actors

In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.

Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.

Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.

"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:30

welcome back to uh, the indie wood podcast, where we talk about indie film and indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear, how difficult it is to make a movie. Uh, for those who are just tuning in, an indie film, an independent film, at least from our perspective, is something that is under a certain threshold but also made outside of the studio system. So if you're making an indie film for 50 000 for wow, 50 000 for 50 million dollars, you're kind of getting into studio territory oh god, we have to wait till 50 to get into studio territory.

Speaker 2: 1:02

You think?

Speaker 1: 1:03

I mean, this is arbitrary. I'm making this up as I go but I mean, if if someone is making an independent film for 50 million dollars, I don't think it's independent anymore I don't think, even though the money is independent, yeah, so universal's picking up, yeah, things for like three million exactly yeah, yeah, it all ends up in the studio system. Anyways, down the line it does sometimes.

Speaker 1: 1:22

But you know, indie films can be anything from something you make with your friends for $25,000 to $25,000 to $25 million, and it's a big range, and I think in order to get all these movies done, we have to wear a lot of hats as filmmakers. And so this podcast is about those many hats, and this is the final episode of season one With me, with Indiana Underhill, and as a cinematographer, I want to hear your experience with music and I want to talk to you about the value of music, of sound design and sound mixing.

Speaker 2: 1:55

So it's one of my favorite things in a film Like it's, I think I except for poor things recently which costume design is the most incredible thing ever. I am normally like obsessed with score and would listen to scores outside of the movies themselves.

Speaker 2: 2:11

And sound design. I think a lot of the directors I work with are very particular about sound design, whether it be like, whether it be like eeriness of doors opening and closing or, uh, for the comedy aspect, um, people adding farts in random places, um, you know, sound design, I think, is big for some directors I work with speaking of, um, the importance of, of elevating moments of sound and, uh, adding farts in for comedy.

Speaker 1: 2:39

Yep, uh, I don't know how much of this fart was actually real or how much of it was added, but it was um dream scenario sales close dream scenario with nicholas cage. But in that movie he has a sequence where he tries to sleep with somebody and he gets really nervous. He farts. That's really good. He farts or shits his pants and I don't know how many of those farts are real, but they add so much value to that scene do you need an intimacy coordinator if, if there's farts in a scene?

Speaker 1: 3:09

well, there was intimacy, intimacy in that scene. So for that scene, specific scene, probably, but not.

Speaker 2: 3:14

If you're just like, but if you fart on someone in a scene, do you need an intimacy coordinator for that?

Speaker 1: 3:18

only if it's sexual yeah, only if it's sexual, I think, although I don't know like, if I, if anyways, moving on.

Speaker 1: 3:28

So the the sad. There's a movie called oh my god, they, we. It was a Sundance film this year and they talked about the importance of quiet moments, and what they did is they use this technique that was popular among a lot of french films, which is they would record adr of people breathing and in order to elevate those moments so like a gasp, like a you know, like just something very subtle that they would then layer on in a scene, and apparently it adds a lot of intimacy well, I mean, with these shotgun mics we can have a lot of fun with the asmr aspect of sound design we should do a whole asmr episode I mean we should do our whole sound design episode do you find asmr creepy?

Speaker 2: 4:20

yeah, it's not my favorite.

Speaker 1: 4:21

Yeah, no I I'm tired because there's just like a little like in my life that want me to put it on in certain parts of the day and I don't love that blasting on a kitchen speaker while I'm trying to make food.

Speaker 2: 4:33

But here we are, and now we have the recipe for yeah, well, they're like.

Speaker 1: 4:37

It's the welcome to the spa or, when they like, do the finger tapping.

Speaker 2: 4:41

Oh my god, anyways anyway, but it's important for a movie, I think. I think it creates, uh uh, a sound Welcome to the mermaid spa, or, when they like, do the finger tapping. Oh my God, nails Anyway.

Speaker 1: 4:44

But it's important for a movie. I think it creates a soundscape for a film and it's another layer for a creative to manipulate. I guess, in a way, the audience I know we use manipulate in the screenwriting episode the one about is it elephant?

Speaker 2: 5:01

The one about the school shooting and they use a train in a schoolyard. A train sound in a schoolyard when the bell's ringing, even though there's no train nearby.

Speaker 1: 5:09

Interesting.

Speaker 2: 5:10

To like have this anxiety of a rush of something coming at you and then after the school shooting happened Was that the short film that did the Oscars? A couple years ago. Yeah, it's something like a big thing, but um I'm sad to say that.

Speaker 1: 5:27

Uh, there's been quite a lot of tv shows and shorts and movies about school shootings and I I don't know which one you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Yeah, I know, but that's an interesting, but they used a train randomly, even though the location didn't have a train, like nothing was about it was train.

Speaker 1: 5:41

Like they used a train in order to make people feel a certain way and anxious and kind of like out of place and it's very subtle and I really appreciate things like that they something similar that was done for maestro, where they actively like, recorded ambient noises during the audio sequences and kept everybody um, kept it all like it's all live, yeah, and then the conversations all happened at the same time yeah from my understanding yes and was recorded all at the same time but because of how it was mic'd, you could separate them and and you know that's where sound mixing comes and you can separate those sounds and into different kind of areas of the of the scene well, hayley and I were just at the award show tribute to the crafts that specializes in below the line crew and um the sound recordist, sound mixers for um maestro one and they

Speaker 2: 6:34

talked about um having over a hundred mics because bradley wanted to do it live all of the with the orchestra and everything, and so they had over like a hundred mics within these massive halls in order to to mix it, and that was like a director's decision, you know.

Speaker 1: 6:51

I know you didn't finish, maestro.

Speaker 2: 6:53

Not yet.

Speaker 1: 6:54

But if you have a hard time, just put on like classical music, especially by Bernstein, yeah, and just watch the movie on mute Cause.

Speaker 2: 7:07

That's cute. I like that idea, which is so mean to the people I just talked about winning that award For sound mixing.

Speaker 1: 7:15

I think that's where for me the movie shines is the audio just elevates the cinematography because it makes it real and tangible and the cinematography is so gorgeous. But I know folks have had not everybody loves a slow movie, like for me, for example. I can't do a slow movie and when I have to go through a slow burn I end up falling asleep sometimes.

Speaker 1: 7:41

But, I think it was a gorgeous film, and for me, though, I saw it in theaters, so it was a little different. I couldn't go anywhere. It's meant for. Yeah, it should be. Yeah, uh, what's it called? A theater movie? Yeah, but uh, here's a secret. I used to be a musician. Oh, I used to be a singer, songwriter, played shows, played open mics in college, um, it's available on spotify for people to check out?

Speaker 2: 8:04

no, it is, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 8:06

there's a sound cloud out there somewhere, okay it's not tied to my name, but it's out there in the in the wild and people can go listen to it.

Speaker 1: 8:13

But I think that taught me a lot yeah about structuring sound and story together, but also kind of really awaken this interesting thing in me and and and I want to know if this is something that you've utilized in in your work as a cinematographer, when I write, when I create a story, the first thing I do is I score it, and so I have, for every project that I'm working, a different playlist with music that you know.

Speaker 1: 8:40

Every time I hear a piece of music, I see a scene yeah, and when I see a scene that fits my story or kind of, I can't stop thinking about. I'll write a movie about that right and so from there I'll kind of score everything, and so I'll have these anchors that I work around. So for me, I don't I don't really like, I don't outline first. I have these scenes and moments that are anchors for my story yeah that are tied to this music. That's the score, and those rarely ever change, and so do you utilize music in that way for cinematography?

Speaker 2: 9:10

when I'm thinking about how I want to tell a story, like when I'm talking to director in any capacity it's interesting. Um, I would like to say it's funny. I think it depends on and I think this is gonna probably like hinder my ability to shoot something is if I am listening to music while writing the shot list that is different to how the film is portrayed is meant to be like visually represented.

Speaker 2: 9:36

So I think a lot of the time, like when you and I were sitting down to talk about your upcoming movie and when I was sitting down with some other directors they all have playlists because they're all writer directors they all have playlists that they wrote it to and it's like the title and it's on spotify and so I'll take that and I'll actually listen to what they listened to when they were writing it so I can get in that headspace of how they want that those the film to like, what they want it to evoke, because it's easier for me to create it based off of rhythm or like when it swells and stuff like that Like.

Speaker 2: 10:07

I think I can get into the headspace of how that director wants to make a movie or how he or she wants it to look because of the playlist they've created. So I actually think it's an asset for your DP.

Speaker 1: 10:18

I couldn't agree more. I think Spotify has been the biggest tool.

Speaker 2: 10:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:23

Like not? The biggest tool tool? Yeah, like not the biggest tool. The tool that's received the most growth recently, for me at least, is that it's something I can use to convey my story or my visual kind of idea as a writer and or director and uh like hawaiian jazz versus like classical music is gonna be like a very different way of me starting to type out a shot list or ideas I have for that interview coming up.

Speaker 1: 10:48

The coolest thing I've noticed, though as as I was editing uh over the last two decades, almost um is that you can cut something and replace to a piece of music, for example, and then you can replace the music, and most of the time, most of the cuts just work. It's weird, that's cool, and and sometimes I'll do that just for fun like, yeah, I'll throw, I'll I'll. When I do uh, when I used to do social media stuff, I would throw in a piece of music and it'd be for for dance and I would throw in just random clips yeah just to fill in the gap of that 30 second music clip and it would just work.

Speaker 2: 11:28

I mean, you have such a history of of music in your life because your mom is a ballerina, it's true, I used to be a ballerina.

Speaker 1: 11:35

I didn't know a lot too, long ago.

Speaker 2: 11:39

Yes, and so all of that is very much a part of like your process.

Speaker 1: 11:43

I imagine, yeah, I, I, I don't know where kind of the music came from, but I think it's crucial and I think it should be crucial to any workflow, because even in, for example, action sequences, you know there is a choreography, there's a rhythm, there is a, there's a, you know something you can tie to music and I think it's such a fundamental part of of the visual. You know, we don't hear music, but we feel it. Yeah, you know yeah. And when it comes to scores like just orchestral scores, if it's good and the story is good, you don't notice it, it just becomes a part of the Just like cinematography the vibe yeah, yeah, they're like the best cinematography is the stuff you don't see because it blends so well into the story that you're not taking away from it by having beautiful imagery exactly, yeah

Speaker 1: 12:30

so it's the same with music, I would imagine yeah, and I think it also when you come to, when it comes to cinematographers who want to, uh, utilize music and their workflow I think this is something I picked up from music videos is like knowing when, like how to stay with a beat you know, and it's just like for drummers or for people who listen to hip-hop, or just you know whatever EDM, even classical, there's a, there's a little bit of a drop there.

Speaker 2: 12:54

It's important to understand the beat, not only of the, the song, but the scene and the movement and the yeah and the uh the story within it you're so funny because you bring up music videos and I'm in such a narrative brain currently but, I, during the pandemic, I like just worked with one music video director like 25 times or something, and and so I forgot how, how, how many times I would listen to those songs on repeat while shot listing and trying to figure out choreography and trying to figure out, um, what move would look good here. Because for music videos it's like most of the time it's like how flashy can I be with trying to entice an audience into the sound, but it has to feel like it's made for that music. And I remember there was one we went to Greece for and there's like this old Greek instrument that they put into a pop song and it has like a nice little moment before the next.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Like verse kicks in and I remember writing for that shot list and proposing to my director just being like this needs. It's like a long, like steady cam quickly running back as the artist is standing in place before we cut to the next location, Because it just you just have these cues of like.

Speaker 1: 14:05

you have real timing and real beats that you know you're cutting to and what I can expect to give a director, which is cool it's interesting that you say you use the word cues because I grew up in the theater yeah and in the theater you have cues for sound, for lighting, for stage and, um, if you start thinking about your composition, your storytelling, your you know how you block your scenes, how you write, you know the beats of your story in cues, you start to kind of see the thread that combines them because it's all. It's all the same thing, yeah, in just different mediums. And it's all crucial to kind of have these things layered in your story, no matter if it's for $25 thousand dollars or twenty five dollars or twenty five million dollars.

Speaker 1: 14:52

Yeah, it's important to have these layers. Yeah, and kind of make your film like an onion.

Speaker 2: 14:58

Can I talk about a red flag I have with sound design?

Speaker 1: 15:01

Yes.

Speaker 2: 15:02

Yeah, something that really irks me, um is when people do like the ringing sound, when there's like confusion or when, like, someone is like waking up and there's like or like an ambulance went by and like you know, the ringing sound where all it is is ringing bothers me because it feels cliche at this point it.

Speaker 1: 15:19

You're right, it feels like there's ways of doing it.

Speaker 2: 15:21

Yeah, for me it reminds me of my tinnitus there you go, I spent, yeah, because it's very much that. I spent one too many times in the front row of a concert there you go and so my left ear is like very mild tinnitus, yeah, and so when I go to bed and it's- quiet, it's like.

Speaker 2: 15:35

Yeah, I can't stand it in movies and I maybe it's an anxiety device and so maybe it. Now I feel like it's time for a change, it's time for a new um, je ne sais quoi. How do you feel about? Because so at afi, they teach the directors and editors not to use music in their films as much as possible, and I think it's because they want to be like you should be able to tell a story without music. But I also think music is a huge part of that I will go back to my.

Speaker 1: 16:04

My previous kind of statement is that every single part of this stack of layers that is your film, writing scenes, beats blocking a stage direction or you know whatever camera direction, um, sound, sound cues, your orchestral score, your, your needle drops, which is a little different, because orchestral score is your, your stuff that you've recorded with an orchestra specifically for your film. A needle drop is when you drop in a um, what do you call it? Just a song?

Speaker 2: 16:38

cool, like a pop song I don't know that new term for me I love it and you drop the needle.

Speaker 1: 16:42

You know boop and the music plays pin drop exactly, yeah, and so I think every single layer of that is the same, because you're telling the same story using different mediums, like using different brushes, different paints. You know, spray paint, acrylics, oils it's different, but you're telling the same thing, right? And then they also have to support each other, and so I get, I think, why they are. Do you know why they say that no?

Speaker 2: 17:11

I just, I think we all know it's probably because you want to tell a story without relying on music, and when they feel like they're ready then they can add in music. But it also just I feel like it feel, and I don't think it's an eight five thing, I think it's just maybe a lack of education, like how to design it for your film.

Speaker 1: 17:26

There are drawbacks I think, because if, for example, I've heard the story where a director has a song that they've cut to and then, when they get to the composer, it's like well, I have this song that I've been using, you know, and it feels like they either want that song copied or the composer isn't given, you know, the room to create. It's not collaborative. So I, I get, I get why, yeah, I think, if you're evident of those pitfalls and those, those issues, why not? I mean, it's, it's if it helps you be more creative, you know, I think, I think, do everything you can. It's, it's you're using every tool in your toolbox. So my final question for you is two, two final questions actually. Okay, what's the most unconventional tool that you have in your, in your toolkit?

Speaker 2: 18:22

as a dp, as a dp related to sound and music anything oh yeah, unconventional tool in my toolkit you know it's funny I think maybe the most unconventional tools are I. I, when I'm reading a new script, I will do I think I spoke about this on the first or second episode but I I go through and I go from an audience perspective. Then, on that second pass, when I'm starting to break it down, I think like a tool I'm using quite often is that I will re-watch the films that are my favorite films and really break down my scenes that are related to that script and analyze why it works so well in that thing and what the rules are they created and how we can avoid the pitfalls. So, like lord of the rings, one of my favorite movies- so real quick.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Your unconventional tool is other movies yeah, that's so cool my unconventional tool is going to my favorite scenes that could like if it's a walk and talk or if it's two people talking and or fighting, like carol. For instance, if a director is talking to me about a scene where a couple is fighting and they're talking about it and maybe a conventional way of doing it, something I always go to and show them as a reference of how we can do it differently, even if we don't do it that way, is Carol, because there's a couple fighting and it's in a one-er where the camera is static, I think there's maybe a little movement but, the camera is pretty static and whoever's in the right or whoever's making a good point is blocked into the light and they're moving around the apartment and they stop in the light or they go into the shadow when they're losing or they're winning.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Oh, that's fun and it's really fun because I think it gives an option to a director to see it in a different way, and I don't think it's let's copy it. I think it's more like let's use that as inspiration of how can we kind of divert or like subvert expectations, and I think that's maybe like a tool everyone uses like references. Yeah, but I'll use it as like a visually communicate with my director on like.

Speaker 1: 20:18

We can do it a different way, though you know, and I have a bunch of those to go to that I always go to um, and so do you have like dvds that you like pop, or do you use something else like uh, I know there's a shot deck which is still fantastic.

Speaker 2: 20:32

Yeah, shot deck is incredible.

Speaker 1: 20:34

There's also something called flimai. It's film misspelt and it's very similar to shot deck and, uh, I used it for quite a while. But it's very similar vibe and very cool aesthetic and you can go by genre, style, color. You know what's in the frame and, uh, it uses, I think, an ai algorithm to kind of sort color.

Speaker 2: 20:52

You know what's in the frame and, uh, he uses, I think, an algorithm to kind of sort everything you know what I'll also do is I call up my rental houses that I work with and I talk to them about the script and I get ideas for new stuff they have in and what they would recommend, because as a dp and as a filmmaker, it's really hard to keep up with all of the tech, like the technical and like what's on market and on offer and you can get used to using the same thing every time, but I think you need to diversify a little every film or every music video.

Speaker 2: 21:21

So I'll call, like you know, the lens techs at keslo or at hawk or um, like genie houses, and I will just be like I am doing something where it requires it to look like this 1950s beauty lighting. But you know what, what kind of new stuff do you have that you like, that you've been testing, or what products have you gotten in? And a lot of the time you know they'll work with me to find options and you don't even I mean, it's like you don't even need that budget to like people are like oh I went to Panavision, they made me a special lens.

Speaker 2: 21:49

That's not what I'm talking about. It's like you don't even need that budget to like. People are like oh, I went to Panavision, they made me a special lens. That's not what I'm talking about. It's more like what is a tool I haven't used yet, cause I work with you all the time and you know what I've used.

Speaker 1: 21:56

And.

Speaker 2: 21:57

I think the unconventional aspect is like leaning on your community in a way for the people that have unexpected solutions.

Speaker 1: 22:05

And so I think this is an interesting question to ask, now that you've said leaning on your community. Yeah, how for filmmakers starting, and for filmmakers that are just in LA or in a market with a thriving film community, what is your advice to them for developing a community of their own?

Speaker 2: 22:28

Join Cinematography for Actors. I don't want to plug my own company, but that's why I started it. So, with Haley, my co-founder, who is producing these episodes with us, and how Yara and I actually know each other and how Yara knows Haley and you're in the CFA studio right now. We started this to bridge the gap between talent and crew. Community has always been really important to me and you know that, really important to me and you know that. And so we started cfa to have community events, to have events that are technical, that are events for speed networking, that make people feel like they have a home. If they weren't from here, that, or if they're from here, another home, um, because it can be, la is not a place that is good for people who don't have other people to rely on, and we want to be that support of like-minded filmmakers.

Speaker 2: 23:08

And then, separately, I would say, go to a lot of the free vendor events, go to rental houses, test things and meet the people that run them and work there. Um, lean on them for support. And then also, um, you know, festivals are great, but, um, camry mage is something I always talk about, uh, which you know, is it you should go to? You know one of the camry mage episodes on the cinematography for actors podcast to check it out. But um, that is like you know a week of workshops. That is like before I moved to LA. I had met most of my network coming here. I had already known like 50 people when I moved here and it was all from Poland, a small town in Poland where I met all the DPs that lived here and all of the rental houses and agents and stuff like that. So I can attest that film festivals are a great place to meet people.

Speaker 2: 23:56

I would say like just keeping up to date with the events you go to, and I think the number one rule I will say to make people feel more comfortable with going to stuff is that everyone else showed up because they wanted to meet people too. There's a reason they're there, and so don't feel awkward about going to networking events or going to mingling or mixers, because they're there for the exact same reason that you are, and it's to meet people that's phenomenal advice, and I'll add to this um you know which kind of if for those.

Speaker 1: 24:23

This might be better advice for folks living outside of los angeles yeah in a different market yeah, did you say, not los angeles?

Speaker 1: 24:29

no, los angeles and different okay great so both. So because it's important for la, because everyone's coming to la everyone should don't leave. La, come back um. The important thing for me and what I picked up in my last 10, 11 years here is remain consistent in your pursuit for a community. Some people might leave, some people might find jobs elsewhere, some people might leave them all together. Some people might just turn out to be assholes yeah but you can't stop looking for new uh folks to join your clan you know, you.

Speaker 1: 25:05

You need to continue growing your network, and your network will evolve yeah and sometimes you just won't have anybody in your community to rely on for one reason or another and sometimes you'll have a gazillion people, so I think it's just keep going. Hang in there, bud.

Speaker 2: 25:21

Yeah, that's my, that's my, it's my advice I want to be the person that someone can come to and be like do you have a contact for this? And I say yes, and I can give three contacts. Like I want to be the person that can connect other people, and I think I. I think I do a pretty good job of it. I enjoy doing it. You're similar.

Speaker 2: 25:33

I love to yeah, but I love someone messaging me like do you know a good sound mixer? Like, do you know a composer? Like I'm a DP, obviously, but you know, I'm co-founder of this company and that's how I know a lot of people too. But uh, just I want. I want to be the person that connects other people, and I think it's always good if you are mingling and expanding your community like you're talking about to expand outside of the people that you need and more like the people that are like-minded.

Speaker 2: 25:57

So don't think of it as a necessity. Like I need to know directors and directors only. And I'm not going to talk to that mixer, I'm not going to talk to that colorist, because I don't need them, everybody, I'd hang you know. And those people are working with those, the people that are the necessity.

Speaker 1: 26:10

So just because you don't work with a sound mixer on a daily basis doesn't mean that that sound mixer isn't also a dp or isn't also a writer or a vfx artist, indie wood yeah especially for independent film there you go and uh with that. Thank you for this wonderful four episode season I'm so honored to be your first podcast yeah, I I think there's a lot of nuggets of of cool wisdom and knowledge in here for for filmmakers to explore and and ask for more clarification um where can they find us yara?

Speaker 1: 26:47

so we are on instagram. Okay. At indywood pod I am personally at iaro 87 um are you born in the year 87, is that why? Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't weird until recently, like I'm like, oh shit, I'm old, but yeah, 87, great, and so I used to have my gamer tag is Iaro and has been for like a decade oh funny and I use it for everything and uh like iPod Iaro and um Y-A-R-O, not like the root thank you so much, yaro, for having me.

Speaker 2: 27:22

I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Thank you until next time thank you for listening to the IndieWood podcast. You can find us on anywhere you find your podcasts and on Instagram at IndieWoodPod from CFA Network.

Speaker 2: 27:33

Cinematography for Actors is bridging the gap through education and community building. Find out about us and listen to our other podcast at cinematographyforactorscom. Cinematography for Actors Institute is a 501c3 non-profit. For more information on fiscal sponsorship donations because we're tax exempt now, so it's a tax write-off and upcoming education, you can email us at contact at cinematography for actorscom. Thanks.