Crafting Cinematic Effects: Making the Impossible Look Real

Ever wondered how filmmakers create stunning visuals on a shoestring budget? Our latest episode features the multi-talented Zina Wild, who shares her experiences as an actor, producer, and writer on a dystopian short film project. She takes us behind the scenes to reveal how she and her team ingeniously transformed ambitious VFX plans into practical, budget-friendly effects. From a light shooting out of a character's hand to a twin character flying, Zina details the creative journey of making the impossible look authentic and impactful. Her collaboration with director of photography Jack and a VFX expert unveils strategies that can inspire any filmmaker to think outside the box.

Explore the artistry and ingenuity behind practical effects in filmmaking. We discuss the significance of flexibility and creativity when working with limited resources and how these elements can lead to visually stunning results. Zina shares personal anecdotes and lessons learned, emphasizing the value of finishing projects to hone one's craft continually. We also dive deep into the differences between practical, special, and visual effects, using iconic films as examples to illustrate how these elements can be seamlessly merged for a more immersive cinematic experience. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for aspiring filmmakers and anyone fascinated by the magic of movie-making.

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In the world of social media, and fast-paced journalism, knowledge is abound. But with all the noise, finding the right information is near impossible. Especially if you’re a creative working in independent film.

Produced by Cinematography For Actors, the Indiewood podcast aims to fix that. This is a podcast about indie filmmakers and the many hats we wear in order to solve problems before, during, and after production.

Every month, award-winning Writer/Director Yaroslav Altunin is joined by a different guest co-host to swap hats, learn about the different aspects of the film industry, and how to implement all you learn into your work.

"We learn from indie filmmakers so we can become better filmmakers. Because we all want to be Hollywood, but first we have to be Indiewood."

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:30

hello and welcome back to the indie wood podcast for season two, episode two, and my co-host for season two is xena wild actor producer writer episode.

Speaker 1: 0:41

We talked about finding your people and trusting your people and finding your team and trusting your team, and I think what I wanted to explore a bit because when we were talking about the topics for this podcast, we remembered our conversation before you did this short film that you did with your team, you had these three shots planned that had the effects. I think, through conversations with me with a couple of other people, you ended up scrapping the visual effects of it and you went for something practical. Yeah, tell me a bit more about the film and then these three shots that you wanted to be the the effect, and then we'll kind of get into what happened great.

Speaker 3: 1:25

Uh, well, the short was kind of like it takes place in a dystopian future and all that. So, uh, there was a moment that we needed to. Uh, there were three moments that were important. Uh, one of them was that there was a light coming out of my hand that was shooting to the other person, so sort of like coming out like that. And there was.

Speaker 1: 1:48

And so for the people not watching on YouTube, but listening when you say like that, oh, like coming from down towards the sky, let's say so, light shooting out of my hand.

Speaker 3: 2:02

There was that one moment. There was another moment that I wanted I wanted the, my twin version, to fly up in the sky, which was complicated. And there was another moment that, uh, supposedly there was like this watch that would stop. So it was a little bit actually not so much the watch would stop, but it was like on screen you could see how give a little context. The short is about living in a dystopian future where everyone has to sign up for this feature, this app it's like mandatory by the government uh that tells you when you're gonna die. So, uh, once you get, uh 24 hours, they give you a courtesy call and the film's about that.

Speaker 3: 2:54

Courtesy call it films about this woman that's on a run, that she gets this courtesy call so there's like all these, uh, a little bit very black, mirror-y kind of like how, on screen, you would get these, your heart level drops. So that was another VFX moment that we were trying to get and, of course, because we're thinking about it in terms of efficiency and budget and all these things, I asked first my DP, jack, to be like how do you, how do we do this? Because I don't know how to do this. I can only see it, see it. But I'm like how do you actually make this happen?

Speaker 3: 3:32

The director, michelle, who had has a VFX person that she works with because she had worked with him before then going back to also trusting your team. There was a person that I works with because she had worked with him before then going back to also trusting your team. There's a person that I worked with in new york that he's a vfx person that I was like can I get him to come over here or can I just ask him? And I'm so glad I called him because he was like so don't do any of that.

Speaker 1: 4:00

What are you doing? Yeah, he's like.

Speaker 3: 4:01

You don't need to do that. Just put a light in the bottom and then I'll talk to jack, and they know each other yeah and we can do that. You can scratch that one moment easy with a light. Um, and the two of them spoke to each other. I had no idea what they were saying great, I'm glad you guys understand.

Speaker 3: 4:21

This is what's going on, and so that was one way of like completely making something way more efficient, easier, cheaper and creative, because it's that's the other fun part of like finding practical ways to do it and with the same effect, and really that I think that for them it's more fun as well. It's a lot more fun to do it and with the same effect, and really that I think that for them it's more fun as well it's a lot more fun to do it practically in camera and on set, and and and I want to talk about the, the flying moment where your twin flies and when we talked about it it was like, yeah, you could do it practically.

Speaker 1: 4:56

But, like you know, I was like Jack might have a better kind of perspective on what to do. And then you showed me the behind the scenes and it was you. And then, like the camera was had, it was a close-up on you and your feet and then just there's two people on each side of you picking you up and like push it, pulling you, pulling you into the sky, and it worked it totally worked and it actually looks better, I think yeah because it looks, I feel, like if it was painted, if it was.

Speaker 3: 5:22

VFX, it would have been a little artificial.

Speaker 1: 5:25

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 5:26

And then also another thing that was a change which I think was really cool that we changed it In my head in the beginning was the rising of the phoenix, so sort of like a bird-like whatever. And then the more we kept thinking about it and the more I started looking into visuals of what that would look like. I didn't like it. I visually was like this looks cheesy, I don't want to do this. And that's when I was like, okay, let me think of another way to do it. I came up with this version of a gold statue, almost so that's what came to me in creatively, and it was great because everyone was sort of like well, you know, if you want to do this, you need to have a costume yeah, it can't be all painted, it's going to be super expensive, it will be this, it will be that.

Speaker 3: 6:21

And then I'm so glad they said that, because once I started googling like images of what that would look like it was like Phoenix costume.

Speaker 1: 6:28

I was like I don't like anything. Yeah, it looks like a showgirl. It's like a cheap showgirl.

Speaker 3: 6:32

This is terrible so I'm like, yeah, okay, great, we're scratching that, let me come up with another version. And what's crazy is that on the day of we were also supposedly we we had um a studio that we were gonna go and they wanted to use a ramp, which, again, I don't understand what they were gonna do.

Speaker 1: 6:55

I still don't know what they were gonna do, but michelle and jack knew, push you off the ramp and you were gonna fly.

Speaker 3: 7:00

Yes, yeah, and, but we were totally running at the time and that's how they again the importance of being prepared and a pro is so important because jack had a green screen with him, so we had set up no screen at the beach with no permit going back to that.

Speaker 1: 7:25

Yeah, in Los Angeles, in Los Angeles, on the beach, yeah you got really lucky. Which beach? Will Rogers? Okay, so go to Will Rogers to shoot your shorts.

Speaker 3: 7:32

Actually, don't go because I definitely had to do some finagling there.

Speaker 1: 7:37

Oh, they showed up, they showed up.

Speaker 3: 7:40

It was so funny the lifeguard showed up.

Speaker 1: 7:43

they showed up. It was so funny.

Speaker 3: 7:43

The lifeguard showed up, oh no, and he was. So he was like you gotta go, and I literally had to go and chat with him for about in the gold costume like, yeah, about 45 minutes, and I was like, and then he was so on board. So that's another thing that is important if you're gonna do something with, with uh illegal illegal just be prepared that things are gonna take longer and uh, be prepared to be really nice to people that are doing you favors.

Speaker 1: 8:12

Yeah, so yeah, I feel like you know you can plan. You said be prepared and you can be so prepared for everything, but then something could happen. You know you run a little too long, like someone just is stuck in traffic.

Speaker 1: 8:25

The lifeguard shows up a little too early you know, uh and and uh, things kind of get in the way, and that's when you pivot. And I think when we think about effects practical, special and and visual effects they do have a place, because when we did, um, the web series stupid cupid there was a teaser we did before that and there was a moment where we had someone on their phone and we thought about doing it practically but there were so many design elements of the application that just were necessary for it to be a visual effect and so we shot it as a green screen and thankfully we had a friend who did a really good job replacing the screen and I think when we were on set that was such a time saver because we just shot the green screen phone, the thumb going over it, maybe the finger poking it once or twice, and we were done. But a practical version of that may have been also quick but would have taken a lot longer totally, and that's the thing too.

Speaker 3: 9:24

On set time is the most important yeah because, especially if you're like with light, you know if you're out and all that, but for us that day we really were in a crunch, and if we actually the studio that I had rented and it was like a little, uh, like a soundstage esque. Yes, um, we had to scratch because actually what ended up happening?

Speaker 3: 9:48

one of the things was that it was first the lifeguard thing that took more time then it was um uh, the makeup person was taking a little longer than we were expecting I mean you were covered completely in gold.

Speaker 1: 10:01

It was, it's true.

Speaker 3: 10:03

And then thank god, we all chip, everybody chips it every like. There were 55 hands on me like covering your gold, yeah and it worked, but uh, so it wasn't. It wasn't anyone's fault yeah, things happen.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Yeah, you can't blame anybody, unless unless someone's actively sabotaging you, which shouldn't happen because, that's a whole other thing, yeah, but yeah, things just happen and you have to roll with the punches.

Speaker 3: 10:28

Things happen, and that's again going back to the idea of flexibility, of you sometimes have to let go of things in order to adjust, you have to, and I think that even in the most, in the biggest sets, even, that happens as well like things happen.

Speaker 1: 10:48

It's meant to be, you just have more money.

Speaker 3: 10:50

Yeah, and the truth is if you have money you can fix a problem very easy it's easier to pivot.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Yeah, what's the difference between, you know, uh, problem solving on a on a short film and a big blockbuster?

Speaker 3: 11:05

20 million dollars exactly but, like you know, the funny thing is, though, going back to the whole idea of the practical stuff, it's like fixing it with uh, creativity and um, being clever is so rewarding, I think. I think that that's so cool because, like thinking on your feet like that and being like I can just change it to do this and that will get the same effect. That, to me, is so. It gets me so excited.

Speaker 1: 11:31

That's the reason why I love making movies with no money because you have to be extra creative and and and because you have limitations, because you have, like, immense obstacles. Yes, like how can I achieve the same story, beat the same effect, with just something else?

Speaker 1: 11:48

totally and I want to bring up an example. I shot a short in december that we're currently still editing, and there were two sequences one where we had an actor looking at a television screen and there was a news report. And then there was another sequence where a military plane flew overhead and we kind of panned from left to right and in the first sequence I thought about oh, why not, we'll just do the green screen and then we'll do it in post, and because it's just me, it's me and my friend doing this, it's nobody else, we were doing it for fun.

Speaker 1: 12:17

We spent I mean spent like a 50 bucks on on dinner that's it, you know and, uh, I I didn't want to rely on me being able to kind of remember how to do a screen replacement and kind of fix all those things, and so what I I do best is like I I did a lot of work in design and so I was like I'll just it, I'll just download some stock footage, and I used artlistio. I believe, yeah, because they have music and they have stock footage and they have sound effects. It's great, love it. We actually used artlist to score Stupid Cupid, the web series.

Speaker 3: 12:52

Amazing.

Speaker 1: 12:53

And so I used the stock footage of the news report. I rebuilt the CNN. Chiron, like the lower thirds in Photoshop, animated it and resolved. So I just built out this segment of a news report and then I just played it on my TV. And I did it practically. And what was really cool is that I got the reflection of the actor in the TV with the image with the CNN logo. I called it a GNN or something in the TV with the image with the CNN logo.

Speaker 1: 13:23

Well, I call it a GNN or something, and it was a lot faster to do that. Well, sorry, it wasn't as fast as it would have been, just with a green screen, but I had more control over what the final image would look like in that moment. I didn't have to rely on like oh hey, I could figure it out in post. Don't do that, don't save it for post. No.

Speaker 1: 13:42

And then my friend who was editing, who shot and edited the project with me, that sequence with the plane flying overhead. I was like you know what I really want? That I think it's really powerful. I'm going to learn how to do that and I have some background on VFX, I'll figure it out. And then he just put in a sound effect in that moment and when we pan, the actor looks from left to right as the plane quote-unquote flies by and it looks so good and you don't see a plane, but it just feels right, of course, of course.

Speaker 1: 14:12

And I might just leave it as is yeah, yeah, even though I really want a plane in that moment. So it's important to have the opportunity to utilize practical special and visual effects in your project. You should have all three in your toolkit because even for a film with no money like for for that film, I'm still gonna have some visual elements, the effects elements, because I need smoke on the horizon. Um, it's a film about war and that should be a part of your toolkit.

Speaker 3: 14:44

Yeah, yeah, and I think, going back to what you were saying, it reminded me that I think what's really important when I where I think that people get paralyzed from doing things is their perfection. So they are like I can't do that because I need this. And then it becomes so overwhelming when you're thinking about the end, like I don't know, you've got to be steven spielberg or something that you never start, and the point is to do it, literally just do it is this going to turn?

Speaker 1: 15:14

it? Is this a topic go to turn from vfx into perfection, because I recently had a whole experience with that where I'm learning how to let projects be done. They might not be good, it doesn't matter, but it has to be done. You have to move on. You have to move on.

Speaker 3: 15:35

You have to make something bad to make something good. I mean, it was the whole Ira Glass, I think that he was saying that it just doesn't matter. Maybe the first thing you make sucks, but then you keep on doing it and then it gets better and better and better. And I think that that's really important, because so many people I know are paralyzed by that feeling of and what if somebody says that it's not good? So what? Who cares? At least you made it. Yeah, what are they?

Speaker 1: 15:58

doing Exactly.

Speaker 3: 16:07

They might be making bigger movies than you, but for the most part, everyone is like loves to be a critic. Yeah, they don't. Yeah, they can't make anything, so it is a practice and the more you think like this can't be done.

Speaker 1: 16:13

You're not allowing yourself that the opportunity to make something someone said I heard this a long time ago in order to be good at something, you kind of have to, you kind of sort of have to be bad at something first. Yeah, or like maybe the quote was in order to be, the first step to being good at something is being kind of sort of bad at something. It was adventure time. You know what that is I don't?

Speaker 1: 16:38

it's a weird animated show that I don't think runs anymore, but it's uh, it was quirky and had a lot of hayley is nodding, uh, from her desk. She understands, um, but it was a quirky show about, you know, growing up and kind of being being kind of yourself yeah so we talked about practical effects and visual effects and special effects for this film. Do you have any VFX? Do you have any visual effects that you still have to do?

Speaker 3: 17:07

We do. We have some. That is the final moment, even though we're using that.

Speaker 1: 17:12

Whether just physically lifting me.

Speaker 3: 17:15

There is a there is a conversation still of doing the one that I actually go up into the sky. But the way that they've done it, actually we might still be able to get away with it. It's still a conversation.

Speaker 1: 17:27

Can you tell me a bit more about how they're planning on doing it?

Speaker 3: 17:31

VFX-wise. To be honest, I don't really understand the conversation. That's how much I'm like. I don't get it, I mean. I think, that they're going to paint it. But because of the, it's semi done, physically, practically, because I was lifted and then they had that the reason why they put the green screen behind is for this reason.

Speaker 3: 17:53

So that's the extent to what I understand. And then there is this moment that Jack shot me from pretty much the waist up. So you see the sky, so it does look like I'm flying, so you don't see my feet. So then the combo of the shots from my feet being up to the shot from me from the waist up and the sky only from the bottom up, and then the green screen effects that they had the sheet behind me, I think that that's the one that they would want to paint over and make it look like I'm actually flying and you don't have to utilize one effect over the other.

Speaker 1: 18:36

You know can a combination of all three or two or you know, uh or two, I think is the right, excuse me, is the right um approach to kind of doing these things, cause when you have something practical and then when you have something visual, marrying them together makes it feel more alive, more lived in when it's just a visual effect. Cause it's like ah, okay, Like it's a, it's a. V's a.

Speaker 1: 18:58

VFX when it's just special effects, for example, like you have a prop that's like a monster prop. For example, in the new Aliens movie they have little face huggers. You know what the face huggers are in Alien? They lay on your face and they impregnate you with eggs. They had them on little wheels so they were practical and they had their little legs moved when they were driven around, but it looked fake. But if you have that active element, the actors can react to it, of course, and then you can use it as a baseline for the effects model, because it'll help you with placement, perspective and lighting.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Yeah. And I remember a long time ago I was watching the behind the scenes for Once Upon a Time in Mexico. It was the Robert Rodriguez movie and they were doing the moment where I think her name was Osama. It was Osama Hayek, Was she in it? I think it was her right.

Speaker 1: 19:50

She was throwing knives from her hands, and so what they did is they just had her walk up to camera and just go bloop with her hand towards the camera because knives were going to fly out of it, and then they had her stand still and they just physically took knives like metal knives, props and then went from her hand past the camera, from her hand past the camera in order to get that reference, and so it was kind of a mix of practical effects I mean it wasn't on camera, but it was a cool technique that I try to use now with my projects is, you know, get real life references, because sometimes people you know they can get references after the fact but matching it exactly to your project is going to be really hard if it's not, you know, if you're not using material from the data.

Speaker 3: 20:43

Do you have anything to say, tad about? Yeah, no, I think flexibility is key, like just because, again that day, if it wasn't for Jack and Michelle um, having spoken about this before and Jack having the green screen and having ways other, and because we having other ways to like, do the shot we would not have been able to finish the movie yeah and that's a big problem yeah, and we'll talk about this in the final episode but, a lot of the film came out of your own pocket oh yeah which is also scary when you put your own money behind the film and and then you're like, oh no, what if it doesn't go wrong it?

Speaker 3: 21:19

has to be perfect, exactly, but it doesn't you just have to finish it?

Speaker 1: 21:22

exactly yeah, exactly. Uh, I guess we should open with the idea of, like what's the difference between practical effects and special effects and vfx? Uh, do you know?

Speaker 3: 21:32

uh, well, practical, as I'm assuming from what I've learned through this situation, uh, is something that you can do physically with a device, whether it's a light or, like what you were saying, the knives or something that you can physically practically? Do um, then vfx is you have to digitally do it, so you have to have a special effects effects, uh, artist painted and digitize.

Speaker 1: 22:04

Digitize it, yeah I mean I'll take that the tracks yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:08

What is special effects so special?

Speaker 1: 22:10

effects is, I, I think, like the difference between practical effects and special effects, depending on you know who you ask, that you can have different answers. For me, I think they're very different. For some people they're probably the same thing. So special effects is like, uh, you know, squibs blowing up in your body like bullet wounds, you know like, like a monster a monster is a special effect.

Speaker 1: 22:29

Yeah, yeah you know, for me practical effects would be something that's like a, like a real thing. So for me, doing my news report, like having it be on tv that I created before, that would be practical gotcha. Maybe someone would call it special. Um, you know, I'm not a special effects artist, so you know, for me it's more of like this I'm just gonna put on the hat, I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna put it on and wear it and and try to try to do the thing. Yeah, and so, for example, in uh, lord of war they had a sequence where, um, there was a movie about gun running, smuggling gun with nicholas cage and he in the movie had a warlord or a person he was selling a gun to test the firearm and for that sequence they shot a real gun.

Speaker 1: 23:20

that's practical. So, you know, it's kind of like the real versus the tangible, but fake versus the fake and digital. So that would be my definition for all three. Zena, thank you for a wonderful episode too. So the next episode we're going to talk about um, writing what you know, and I think it's a good segue from this episode, because we talked a lot about problem solving and I wanted to talk about this short and kind of, you know, that concept of really writing from your own kind of personal place of pain, I guess, because we talked a little bit about this before. And for me there's a couple of things that I wrote that were like, oh, this hurts and I'm going to live with it forever because it's a film now, and I think we wanted to discuss the how do you live with something that you've written that maybe hurts, but you did it because you needed to get it out. Sure, thank you again for coming on. We'll see you next week.

Speaker 4: 24:16

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 24:17

All right, bye everyone, yes, bye. Thank you for listening to the IndieWood Podcast. You can find us on anywhere you find your podcasts and on Instagram at IndieWoodPod.

Speaker 4: 24:26

See you next time. From the CFA Network. Cinematography for Actors is bridging the gap through education and community building. Find out about us and listen to our other podcast at cinematographyforactorscom. Cinematography for Actors Institute is a 501c3 nonprofit. For more information on fiscal sponsorship donations because we're tax exempt now, so it's a tax write-off and upcoming education, you can email us at contactatcinematographyforactorscom. Thanks.