Episode 1: Lindsay Hubbard from "Summer House"

Join us on a deep dive into the complex world of Lindsay Hubbard, one of the central figures on Bravo's "Summer House." In this episode, a reality TV producer and a therapist team up to dissect Lindsay's relationship patterns spanning nine seasons of the show, culminating in her recent breakup with fiancé Carl Radke. Whether you love or hate her, we aim to explore the nuances that make her both a problematic character and a feminist queen. 

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Transcript

Unknown: Welcome to our first episode of Unhinged and On Camera, name is Jenny Gnirke and I'm a reality TV producer and we came up with this concept. How long ago? Like a month ago, maybe? Well, I feel like we've came up with this concept, like, many years ago, but it only became in this modality a couple of months ago. Yeah. So, Sam, why don't you introduce yourself? Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm Samantha. I'm a psychotherapist. I work with individuals and couples. All my work is about, like, holding empathy and compassion for people while also like being with them and through their, like, painful experiences. I'm also like a really big, avid TV, reality TV connoisseur, and I find it to be really interesting to hold my like, therapeutic frames while watching TV and thinking about this, like, duality between, like, holding empathy for like the different and TV stars, emotional experiences, but also being like, kind of critical of their behaviors and the reactions and like the different choices they make on TV. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's, like, ironic, because if we've been friends for like, I want to say 20 years, I was from college and we went to art school together and Sam was like the quintessential like art queen with like knowing all that indie hipster everything. And I came from Florida and was like basically a pile of trash that just loved watching. I love New York on VH one. And so we initially had nothing in common, but she taught me all the art stuff. And then I introduced her to like my Trash TV. But you really got it. The epitome of high, low, high. We are the high, low friendship. And like you really got into reality TV when you were in school to be a therapist and it was because you needed to like check out of like so decompressing to watch these reality stars problems unfold and just get to be like observer and now got so deep back in the other way. So basically what we're going to do every episode is we're going to take a celebrity Bravolebrity we start with Bravolebrity maybe we'll go to other reality stars and just break down sort of their patterns on the show, things that they have been doing, things that we see like they could do differently from a therapeutic standpoint and also from a reality TV standpoint. Because oftentimes we'll get in conversations where and you know, this is happening right now, so much on Vanderpump Rules because everyone has such various opinions. And when I see what Andy Cohen is saying about just, you know, everyone's a little bit right and then everyone gets so up in arms about it, I'm like, Oh, he's thinking about this like a reality show producer. And then Sam will come to me and be like, Well, this is what's the healthiest thing for Ariana or this person. I did it, and I'm like, I agree with you, but I'm bored. Yeah, I think what felt interesting about our conversations about this is our different perspectives, like you coming in from this reality TV producer place of like what makes good TV and then me coming from this more like humanity, humanitarian or humanistic place of like what makes for good people. And sometimes I feel like those things can like play well together. Like, I think good people can still make like people who grow and change can still make interesting TV, but sometimes they are at odds. Like sometimes you can grow and change to a healthier version of yourself. And that doesn't make interesting TV any longer. And like, what does that mean for us as like consumers of it that like we're not that interested in watching like whole, you know, people that's sort of our inspiration. And today we're going to do a very divisive character, Lindsey Hubbard from Summer House, following her for a long time. Me personally, I am triggered up the wall from Lindsey Hubbard happened from day one and it's almost become the sport to be like I can't wait to see what crazy things she does in a way that I'm like, I had to, like, really step back because I knew this season was going to be about her and Carl and really realize that, you know, her triggering as a mirror for myself, most likely because there's so much that, you know, I recognize in myself from her, especially the abandonment issues and stuff which we're going to get into right now. But so I thought she was like a great character to get into because both of us feel like very strongly about her, basically. Um, yeah. I think one of the things that brought us like two different like podcast and things outside of Bravo is the way in which like it all plays out. And this like you have to be on a team. You're either Team Lindsey or Team Carl. We see it so strongly here and I think it like takes away from all of the nuance that really exists in these situations is a lot of humanity in them both, and there's a lot of toxicity in them both. And it can be hard to just play the way Instagram or these different places want to make it. Just like pick a team, be on one side, and then we have to villainize the other side. And it totally feeds into what we see happening on the TV, because I think Lindsey thrives in that duality of like, you're either on my team or you're against me. And that, you know, that's how she, like, moves through the world and moves through relationships, or at least that's how we see it play out on the screen. Yeah. And we're going to get into like breaking down all the relationships she had in the show. But I feel like it's funny, you know, rewatching a lot of these episodes in preparation for this, you know, when she's single, she's really in it. I see her in almost a totally different light than when she's in a relationship. So I think this also feels like it could play into like a couples therapy modality where you're sort of like you learn a lot from that. And to be honest, we're focusing on Lindsey, but Carl's going to play into it. But I feel like it's hard to talk about Carl as we're talking about Lindsey, especially right now with everything that's playing out on screen. Yeah, but also a part of me feels like Carl. I could sum him up in, like, one sentence was I could do like, 4 hours on Lindsey because, like, Carl to me is like he's an insecure guy who fed his insecurities and emotional problems with alcohol and he removed that. And now he's on a journey of being sober, which is like extremely difficult journey. And, you know, he kind of which will get into this later but like fed that whole with Lindsey initially. So I feel like that's that's his whole story. Like, I don't know that there's a lot more layers there, but there is something that I know less about Carl. I feel like Carl has given the mask of like I'm either the drunk boy or now I'm like the recovered sort of good boy. And I want to fit I need to fit into whatever role I see myself in. And I think that leads to a lot of insecurity because it's very black and white and there's no way to live up to like, you can't be all one thing, but let's put Carl to the side. Yeah, I'm talking about Lindsey. And I want to also bring in this idea that I feel like the things that are so triggering for me as a viewer, Lindsey, are one the extremes. But also it's really where I connect with her like I feel I feel her abandonment and rejection triggers within myself. I'm also very attracted to how she is this boss lady. I'm also attracted to how she's like very strong presence. She's she's she can be controlled. I'm thinking of like, what's the good word for controlling? Because I think there is a good version of that that I can feel within my relationships where I want to be like the one who wears the pants and like I want to be the one who is the strong presence. But then I also want my partner to step up and get frustrated when my partner doesn't step up. But then when I think about him stepping up, I'm like, you and I talked about that. That's kind of it gives me the echo. A little bossy white man gives me the EQ a little. Oh, so I feel the contradictions in her within myself. And so it helps me hold like a lot of empathy and humanity for her. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I struggle with, like, validating my own feelings, especially in these moments with like my venom issues or whatever come up. So when she gets kind of really fiery and like yelling at her partner or whatever, like I'm like, Oh, Carl Lindsay. No, not again. But then another part of me is like, I wish I could do that sometimes where I could be like, she knows her child so well, right? Like she really lets herself have tantrums. That's what activating is. It's like giving permission to have a tantrum. Hey, let's go back and, like, give a little history. Yeah. Okay. So, Lindsay. Yeah, we're getting real deep already, but, you know, whatever. So Lindsay comes on to the show season one, and she first comes on with Everett, which will get into him, but just some overall stuff. Season one, she's a publicist and then she opens her own PR firm. She's like living with that reporter girl, and the reporter girl's like, You don't see the real Lindsay. That's sort of their fight from first season. And she gets into that. She her mom had her when she was really young. I guess she had her brother first, then her, and then abandoned her when she was like three. And all we know is that her mom's not in her life, shouldn't speak with her, but she doesn't give too many details. And her dad is like a huge presence in her life, basically raised her. We learned just this season about her step mom, which I thought was a little strange. But we see her step mom for the first time. She has this aunt Rhonda, who sort of took this mom role in her life, was notably absent this season. Yes. But, you know, as I was rewatching when she started drinking again, you know, she stopped drinking for Carl, which, again, we're going to get into this. But when she stopped drinking for Carl, the first time she drank again was with Ronda, actually. And I was like I was like eagle eyed for the Aunt Rhonda, like pop ups again, because we were really wondering why she disappeared. She was sort of big in the earlier season. Well, she felt like a grounding force for Lindsay of like someone who maybe could talk some sense into her, but maybe not. I mean, it was weird that she wasn't at the bridal shower, but again, so Aunt Ronda was sort of the person that popped up a lot that you know, we know as her family member. So. Yeah, and then she sort of got this obsession with like, like a timeline in her life first season. It's more about like building this PR, moving in with her first boyfriend that she comes on the show with. But she's definitely got a ticking clock from the beginning. It's funny, even in the first episode, she's like telling for a season. She's telling her roommate like, You're 32 and living with two people, and the girl's like, What does that have to do with anything? I need roommates. It's New York City. And so you could tell that like permeates and and we're going to get into the activation of it all. But Lindsay quite often chooses violence, which is amazing to watch, but but questionable whether that's good for her or like. Yeah, are we reinforcing that? Yeah. I think the big themes we want to look at within her relationships are these sort of like attachment wounds and how she kind of tries to repair her childhood feelings of like rejection and abandonment through pushing for relationship really quickly without like slowing down and being in the attachment building phase. I think the other things are around like, yeah, this pressure to recreate family, this pressure she puts on herself and others in order to like create some sense of like security and stability that ends up being like a false sense of right, like this perceived created sense within herself. But yeah, let's get into some of those relationships. We'll talk about those that we can kind of go into are part three. So before I so ever, it is the first guy that she comes on with season one. Season one, he's actually quite cute, but he's like sort of car 1.0 and what rewatching is kind of wild to be like, wow, this is a lot of mirroring with what's going on with Karl. But Everett is ex-military. He's got some struggles in that area that we see very briefly. They at first are together and their goal is to move in. She wants to move in with him, which, you know, she does this in other relationships as well, where some are sort of this weird test of moving in together. But anyway. Is. So at first they're sort of a good team and then they have this huge fight over. Everett starts texting this girl that basically lives in his building. I guess he keeps saying these are someone I just know sort of from work or building and it's not romantic. She's just out in the Hamptons and they're out in the Hamptons and she's asking for, like, recommendations. And Lindsay just basically, like, loses her mind is like, how could you be texting another girl? And that's like the first fight that sort of spins out. And then every other fight almost is part of that fight, and they get into this sort of pattern of fighting when they're drinking. At some point, I think Everett calls her a geek and she just, like, flips out for no reason. He was kind of joking. And again, it's a lot of late night fights. And then at some point he does like leave just out of anger and stay at another share house. And that prompts the infamous the flashback we see all the time of Everett, where she's like, I'm going to go sleep in another bed with another guy tonight, because basically he blacked out the share house and just fell asleep in someone's bed with like ten other people, which sounds weird, but for the Hamptons is not totally uncalled for. But it's funny because they play that clip, but then Lindsay actually like leaves and then comes back and sort of is fine with him after that. And they do end up kind of breaking up briefly. They have a good conversation where Lindsay and him sit down and Lindsay's like, I'm opening this PR firm and I'm having this stress and I'm having this stress. And Everett's very harsh with her. He's like, You're you're going to have a job forever. You're going to have this forever. Like, none of this, like, justifies this fighting and this. And he holds her accountable. But then he's sort of like after a weekend of being away or a couple of days of being away from her, comes back with flowers and like Windsor back over at her birthday. Her birthday is a big thing for her, so he wins her back over. And by the end of the summer they do choose to move in together. And then by the next season we've learned in the spring they broke up off camera and he tries to like win her over again the next season, but it's not happening. So, yeah, what happened to all of that? That was what was this relationship? We see the first sort of instances of this cycle that she gets into with men and I think even with her friendships where she wants to express some sort of feeling, but she does it in this very sort of surface safe way. And then when the partner doesn't respond exactly how she wants them to or they try to explain themselves in some sort of way, like, Oh, I like what this girl, he was texting, he's like, she's just a friend. Like, it's she feels dismissed and shut down and then, like, creates this bigger cycle that builds and builds and builds where there's no, like, hearing each other. There's no sort of room for that. Like, your partner can do something that hurts you and that can not necessarily be their intention. It's all like for her of this, like, split of like, either you're good to me or you're bad to me. And so we sort of see the beginnings of this. What's interesting is that in this first season, we can see her holding a little bit of space for her role and like co-creating issues in the relationship that later and I think this is something that is reinforced in reality TV she no longer can have space for it's like that's not going to be validated or if anyone sees her that she is part of the problems in her relationships, then she's now all bad. And I can't I can't tolerate that. And so I have to be louder and bigger and stronger and have and, and victimize myself in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, I was surprised that I felt that she was taking more ownership in this relationship than what I've seen with, you know, other relationships. And I also want to shout out like the post team on this first season because I thought they did such a good job of like that first fight that she was kind of irrational with Everett. And they in our great interviews where they explained, I have this childhood wound, I have these abandonment issues. So, you know, I think everyone's going to leave me. And it so clearly illustrates her saying, okay, like, I'm going to push, push, push until he leaves and then I'm going to be like, oh, look, another guy that abandoned me, you know, and it's this pattern that I think a lot of women do because a lot of us have been abandoned by a family member. And, you know, a lot of us have been abandoned by men then in our lives. And a lot of men are taught to hold space for women so that they they run. We think about the patriarchal implications of like. Women are emotional, women are too much. And so like I do think that pigeonhole that. That's something that engine holds Lindsay around. Like if she does have big emotions, she's probably gotten a lot of messaging that like that makes her bad. But it also is very rewarding. And I think we're seeing that play out in like how people are responding to have always kind of responded to her or like either people really get attracted to the way that she's emotional and can be really big in her emotional reactions or people can be like kind of like put off by that, like, ooh, women, you know, like they're being like a hysterical woman. Right. That whole trope. Yeah. And it's so funny when, like, I'm watching Team Carlin, Team Lindsay happen like a play out on Instagram. I'm like, so, like, am I not a feminist anymore? It's like that book, like bad feminist or I'm like, Am I part of the problem? But then I'm like, I think it's just so funny because especially in these spaces where it's like it's mostly women chiming in right on this topic, I'm like, Isn't there a space for a nuance to be like, Okay, guys, we can be toxic to like and like, I always want to be a place of growth to be like, I could be the wrong one here. Like Taylor Swift. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me, like, quite often. Sometimes it is you. And I think, you know, it's just hard in these spaces because especially with this Everett stuff, like it's hard watching it back because he was a really good guy to her. He seemed to really want to provide the things she wanted and he was very strong. Like, I feel like he provided a pillar for her in a way of like, you know, that conversation they have when they're almost breaking up. And she had written him this like, long emotional email, which did seem like we don't see the email, but it does seem very beautiful. Like she spent a lot of time. She like reads it to a friend beforehand and like ever. It kind of holds her accountable in a way that I felt like was really strong and not emotional. He was like, You're giving me all these reasons for why you're emotional and upset right now, but this is life. So let's just cut this and, like, get to the real heart of the issue and like, what we need to fix it. And, um, yeah, it's just kind of, it's hard to go through their whole relationship because, you know, they did break up off camera, so there was so much we didn't see. And then when they come back the next season, he's sort of trying to woo her and win her over again. And he falls into the classic Lindsay pattern, which, oh, maybe we should get into Sandwich Guy next. But, you know, of like trying to, like, buy her bouquets and please her and he's like, never enough. It's never enough. Well, if you're speaking to a strike in Lindsay that I feel very attracted to around like she loves hard, like when she loves you, whether you're a friend, whether you're a boyfriend, it just feels like she is ride or die. And that can be such a beautiful thing, right? Like she probably can rape these beautiful emails and express these, like, beautiful emotions. I feel like we don't see enough of that on TV. I wish we saw more of that, and I think it's because the stakes are so high to create drama. And again, there's like no drama in that. But I think she can be such like a loving, caring person. And I think she does want to like build these strong relationships. I think it tends to go and I don't know if that's like TV created or if this pattern within her life that like it tends to go awry for her when she's seeking that that thing that like no one can actually meet what I do. Like I do all of this and nobody can meet it exactly the way I do. But also, I think in that love, I mean, you know, there's obviously a lot of talk of guys that like Love Bomb Women, which clearly is a pattern and happens all the time. And I don't think women really love bomb in that same way or and certainly not Lindsay. But I think we have a tendency to really be like if this guy, you know, especially with Everett because, you know, he's a little damage from his military past. Like she's like, I'm going to love and love and love and love. I'm going to love you so much. And I think this is a pattern that we see, too, is like Danielle actually, I think calls out quite often when she's like, you love these people so much, but you got to take a step back and say like, do they provide me the things that I, you know, want in my life or in general? Like, are you loving that person? Are you loving the idea of that person in that relationship? Because, I mean, I have so many single friends and like whenever they go on a date, I'll be like, Oh, what did you like How was the date? Their first answer will be like, I think he liked me. He, you know, he seemed like he liked me. And then I'll be like, How is that your first? Like to me? Like, why isn't your first thing I liked this about him or I liked that or this was great for me like. It just seems like women are sort of programed to do this thing where we love, love, love, but we're not really thinking about ourselves in that relationship. And this speaks a lot to what's playing out between Lindsey and Carl, where she clearly loves him and is best friends with him. And yet, like, she wants him to be different. She wants him to be the guy who has a full time stable job. She wants him to be the guy who is going to be able to validate her emotions, but also be strong in these other ways that kind of end up in contradiction and become this extremely unrealistic expectation of another person, but also of this person that she knows. Yeah. And it's it's crazy what you just described. I'm like, that was ever it like, why did that relationship go so awry? But anyways, so her bar is always moving, right? Like you were saying, there's one bar. But for her the bar is always moving. So if somebody meets that bar, there's sort of like a whole new bar she can create. Yeah, no, definitely. And I think she was very young at that time. And, you know, being new to a reality show opens a whole new. Like you're basically opening a door to Narnia where you're like, Oh, I suddenly have this whole new life of fame. And I remember, like, seeing the summerhouse people out at some point during this early seasons, and they were like, so kids in a candy store you know? And Karl talks about his drug addiction during that time. And it's just very obvious that that was full force. But I felt like all of them were just living their best lives. And that's not set up for like a real relationship. And that's the things that you don't see on camera, you know, like the off seasons when they're like suddenly famous and doing photoshoots and doing other things. And that changes the whole dynamic of their life and it changes their development, right? Like they're going through this like early adulthood to like a more stable adulthood development. This is like a developmental phase and being on TV and getting this feedback and getting this fame and get in this like constant external output and impacts like that developmental process. Yeah. So the next relationship, we actually see Lindsay and Carl try to get together. But just for this piece of simplicity here, we'll keep the Carl stuff together. But the next relationship we sort of see, she she flirts with a lot of guys in the house and dates, but Carl's sort of the next guy she tries to actually date. But pausing on that, the next guy we see a full relationship with is what I like to refer to. Or we've been flirting to a sandwich guy whose real name is somebody said, I noticed you make me wear my sandwiches, which even eat sandwiches. Let's be honest. Right. I'm never lip syncing, which I like the callback this season though, when she made Carl's sandwich, she was like, See how much I love you? I may do this, but definitely like, I mean, let's be honest, it's a little bit of a calling card for all women because how many sandwiches have we made for these men who never make our sandwiches? So I think that that definitely became like a rallying cry for her and her fandom, which is fair. But it's interesting to rewatch some of these fights and dynamics to be like, Oh, there was so much more that happened than that one flashback that we see every season. Every season we get a reference to Activated Lindsay and we see a series of the same like four or five flashbacks. But basically Stephen and Lindsay start dating at the end of the season where she tries to date Carl and they become official. He seems really sweet guy. I believe he works at Tao and I believe he's like a nightlife guy. In between season, have you worked in like restaurants or some stuff? Some people like service management. Yeah, I think it was like related to Budokan. I want to say I remember during COVID there might have been some stalking happening. But anyway, he's what's most important is he'd like he was someone who it felt like work was very important to him and he worked in like what seemed like a high stress work environment and it required a lot of his attention and focus Well, in fairness to them, so when they film this season, so Stephen comes into the house during the COVID season when they're like locked out in the house, which was, in fairness, more stressful than that. I mean, Hannah Berner, who at the time everyone was navigating like what are my boundaries between work and real life when I'm working at home all the time? Yeah. And like, Hannah Berner lost her whole mind. Like, she became insane person just from being trapped in the house, and Hannah just disappeared. I mean, just as for Hannah, but, you know, she left and she left. I think it was the best thing for her to leave, to be kicked off. Like, I think it totally. And I know that. Yeah, but I do think like she. Became the best version of herself when she was able to, like, take some space from this and focus on her values and what mattered to her. And yeah, and this is like coming clean. This is like the whole theme of the podcast, you know what I mean? Like. Um, so it's, it's interesting aside, but anyways, so Steven comes on during this COVID season and basically they live together again. It's a test to see if they can live together another mere year and basically they get in a sandwich, fight some other fights. In fairness. Thinking he works at Tao a con one of those during COVID. Any hospitality, restaurant, hotel, anything was struggling to survive. Like I had a friend who was working at a company that does like cooking classes, like live cooking classes, and she had to invent a whole virtual cooking class within like a month, or they were going to lose their whole business. So anyone in that field was, you know, struggling. And if I remember correctly, they filmed this usually in July, COVID happened and end of March, beginning of April. So there's not been that much time. So I don't know. So he kind of runs away a lot from like the group activities to go work. It later comes up in the reunion that Danielle believes and I guess so did his Lindsey that he wasn't working he was like playing Minecraft which is also he's entitled to do you know if I was stuck in a house and I had to be with ten people I didn't really know, I would probably escape and look at my phone for a while. But Lindsay sort of has all these expectations for him and their relationship is just a cycle of her telling him she needs something different, him trying to do it, her telling you it's not good enough, him getting so hurt that he just runs away and leaves. Then he tries to win her back. So I think the sandwich fight was like the first one and he doesn't leave that time. Then they have a conversation where she's like, I need more quality time. And he's like, You know, I have a lot of time in the morning, so let's I don't drink coffee, but you do. So let's, let's sit in the morning and you'll drink your coffee and we'll really spend time together. And he does. He follows through with that and then he keeps moving. I know. And so then he throws her this whole birthday thing and they wasn't good enough. The bar keeps moving. I mean, Page is such a good voice of reason because she was like, well, you know, everybody knows Lindsay needs like over the top, over the top, and this is not that. And so a part of me was like, well, if Page sees that, I mean, I think she is right. A boyfriend should see that. But also men, they don't see anything. So so is that a need or want that does she need over the top or does is that what she wants? And I think sometimes that's a confusion for people around. Like, should our partners always meet our wants or are they meant to meet our needs? And is someone a bad partner because they didn't throw you an over the top birthday party versus like that need for time and attention that feels there's something more valid in that But again, it just feels like the bar keeps moving. I also think we see a lot in this relationship. It becomes even more clear this this thing she does of splitting, which is something we in psychology see as when somebody either idealizes or devalues somebody and they can only kind of move in those two sort of binary ways. And I feel like we see that a lot with Lindsay when somebody is showing up the way she, like, thinks they should or that feels within support and validation of her, she can idealize and like they're the best person. And we saw that with our friendship with Danielle. As long as she was there to ride with her, she was like the best friend, the best person. But the suck it there's like this this feeling of like, Oh, you're not with me 100%. It goes all the way to the other end of like, now I have to reject you and and you're the bad guy. And so it feels like that's what we see here with the birthday party of like, oh, my God, he missed the mark all at all. And so now he's like a terrible guy. And that feels like a really extreme reaction. Well, it's funny, too. It's Sierra's first season, and Sierra sort of helped Steven set this up, and then they get this huge fight, and Steven's like, I'm packing, I'm leaving. Starts packing, leaving. Karl is sort of his friend at this point, and he's like, Don't leave what's happening? And Lindsey is just crying. But then she's like, suddenly, or actually she doesn't cry at all. I think she's just sort of suddenly fine. And everyone's like, Lindsay, he's leaving you. And to me, just seeing how fine she was was really because I have abandonment issues too. So I think that's a dissociation that happens for her. Where she like disconnects from her reality in those moments she was sort of fine. And then. And then she leaves and all the girls, well, everyone in the house sort of is like, well, it's still your birthday, let's celebrate. And they just kind of have this fun night. And Cierra is new to all of this. So she's standing there and she's like, This is so bizarre. He just left her and she's like, suddenly fine. Like, this is the point. And another thing that we didn't get into is the timeline, the time famous timeline of it all. Yeah. That she wrote down on a notebook the timeline for her in Stephen's life. And it really was like a timeline for her life because I think, honestly, she could put and this is the thing with Lindsey's like it could be any bam it goes back to that idea of like I don't know that she like cares about who her partner is and more just want someone who can fit into these expectations of this timeline that she's created. Oh, yeah. So the timeline is wild. It's basically like we are dating, we move in together. And I think September after summer house that was supposed to move in together and then, you know, we get engaged then we get married, then we have a baby. And actually, it's your timeline. I mean, I did accomplish it, but timelines are not good to follow. Well, funny way of being like that. No, thank you. Um, so funny because Hannah Berner at the reunion andI asked her maybe the shadiest question ever where he's like, You're sort of following Lindsay's timeline better than she is. What is your take on that? And Hannah gives the most, like, feminist answer to that question. She's like, I think Lindsay is a strong person, and any man that she's going to be with should let her shine and live her best life. And when she meets that person, it will all be easy. And she is so true. This is so true. I feel like this if Lindsay could find I think she finds insecure men. She is very attracted to emotionally stunted and insecure men because I think she knows she can, like dominate and steamroll them in a way that makes her feel a sense of like power and control, that gives her a sense of safety. But if she was with a man who is more secure within himself and able to like boost her up like she could be a powerhouse in a relationship in her life, in all these different areas, she could be Ariana, or maybe even better. Well, because she seems cleaner than Arianna, which is like for another girl. So, yeah, I mean, another thing that happens at some point during their fighting is, you know, she's like, oh, you didn't get know about the birthday dinner going back to that. It's like, I need more romance, I need more. And he's like, they've only this is also their year anniversary, her birthdays also they're around their year anniversary. And he's like in the last year that we've been together, we travel to Italy. I took you on a romantic helicopter ride. I did this, that and the other. And then she's like, Your car is always moving. Well, the bar is this ideal, right? It's like she doesn't even need the extravagant birthday parties. She just wanted an engagement ring because she needed it to or she needed him to. Were they living together at the time? I can't remember. They didn't do the summer house like then. She wanted, like a key to, like, this is our new apartment she wanted. It's like she doesn't. These men don't understand that. Like the thing she wants in relationship is that security and that sense that we're building this thing where I think she's dating a lot of New York City men. And one thing we know about New York City men is they are Peter Pans and often don't want to like move within timelines or with like I keep want to go back to Carl but I guess because he's my biggest reference right now like on that first date with him didn't she. Or was it on the first date? It was the first time they dated. He she was like, let's get him in. Someone said we should get married. And she's like, he's like, no, like I'm not ready for that. And they weren't even like boyfriend and girlfriend at the time. Yeah. I mean, again, not to jump ahead to Carl, but like he kind of knew this about her and fulfilled all the things she wanted. So I give Carl some credit there. One other thing Sandwich Guy does before we wrap him up that I thought was fascinating and kind of amazing because this. Never happened to me. Is that during one of their fights when they're separated because he keeps leaving and coming back to the house? Sort of. Is that he makes her a PowerPoint presentation to display to her that he understands what a healthy and happy relationship is. And Daniel's very weirdly involved in their relationship, like constantly commenting on it, which I guess it was probably a good thing that Lindsay cut her out with the girl stuff, because watching it with Stephen, I'm like, Oh, this is too many steps. Like, she's stepping too much into it. But, you know, Lindsey sort of showing her this PowerPoint presentation and Lindsey's like, I think Stephen need to make this for himself to, like, understand what he needed in a relationship, which I'm like, well, he's doing the work. I mean, they don't show the whole PowerPoint presentation. I would die to see the whole thing, by the way. But they do like screenshots. And I mean, it's like the man has his read up, like he knows what he's talking about. And yeah, I just. I'm shocked that did nothing to move her in any direction. Well, probably because I don't remember what was in the PowerPoint, but I imagine that part of what felt disconnecting for her was that it was probably about him and his needs, and she doesn't always have a whole lot of space for that. There's probably more she needed to. Again, did the PowerPoint look like her timeline? And if those things were totally connected, I think she does. The splitting thing off like this has no value to me if it doesn't completely match the expectation that I'm holding. Yeah. And it's it is very watching. This is a wild read. And this is the thing I think as women do often is like, we want men. She says this a lot during the relationship, anticipate our needs. I think men do that, too. I mean, men should do that. Well, of course men do that for us. Yeah. Okay. They want our sandwiches for sure brought to them, without question. But I think women do that well for men, or we think we do that well for men. And men don't often do any of those things for women. So, again, it's one of those things where it's like, I see where the fan base is like pro Lindsey not saying I'm anti Lindsay but sometimes I am. But but it's, you know, because she is kind of doing this rallying cry of like why can't you just know what I want without me having to tell you all the time? Everything but also early on as a strength and like women can have expectations of men. Like we're all allowed to we're allowed to expect them to show up and to behave in certain ways and to try to meet our needs in certain ways. That I feel like in a rom coms or in like, you know, different things, we don't see that play out. And then it often is that like if a woman is asserting a need, that she's being hysterical or she's being too much or she's being demanding and needy and attention seeking. And I think Lindsey is an interesting character of like, where is the line? Is there a line where maybe she is being needy or attention seeking in negative ways? Or for me, I just feel like she's doing this push and pull. She's like, I'm going to push you so hard to see if you'll leave or not. And then, well, definitely. There's always testing. Yeah. Oh, she's a tester, for sure. So there's two quick relationships before we get into college. I think we skipped Jason, and I don't think that there's enough information that's even interesting about that. But I do think there's something interesting about Austin and this friendship dynamic that plays out in a lot of her relationships where she'll say, like, they're my best friend. And what it had me thinking from like a therapeutic standpoint is like where are like the boundaries, the expectations, the needs and all these like different aspects of relationship They're different for best friends versus your partner and where that can create really confusing relationship dynamics if it's unclear what role that person is playing in your life. Oh, yeah. So yeah. So Jason and Austin sort of play out in Winter House, which is separate from Summer House. It's where they go to Vermont and play around in the snow. So Austin is from Southern Charm. So him and Lindsey have probably mingled in the Bravo verse, and we know often they didn't really date, they just kind of had flings well and best friends. They were best friends. And so she comes into winter house like We're going to be together. But she came in I think a couple of days late and he's already coupled up with Ciara. He's early. Austin Yeah. So at this point it's like definitely too late for Lindsey. And so she kind of spirals out. Tries to, like, win him over. There's a wind chase happening. And then when she can't, she goes to Jason, who actually I will say and yeah, there's not much to say about Jason, but I will say, like, overall, Jason might be the most healthy relationship we've seen because they just seem very casual on vacation and happy in the end. Winter House just being like, we're going to see how this plays out. Off camera, she apparently gets pregnant and, you know, has a miscarriage. You know, she tells Karl about it in summer house. But even in that, she's sort of like, you know, Jason was really there for me, was great. She never really disparages him. There's a bit of a conflict over her talking, you know, publicly about the miscarriage. Otherwise, I know there was some stuff, too, just in the reality spirit sphere that Jason had showed up to a couple parties at Summer House and for some reason, you know, post sort of edited him out, which kind of makes sense because again, like in reality TV you focus on where sort of like story to tell. There's an a story to tell, there's no story to tell. So it's like, okay, he showed up and everything was great. Okay. By cutting room floor, I hate to tell you, that's, you know, you got 40 something minutes that you're going to only use the stuff that's interesting. And I believe it was part of that. We've only seen that like this like small piece of that relationship, because my guess is that relationship wasn't that interesting for TV because it was probably one of her more healthy relationships. But yeah, brief like shouldn't move out of like, besides having this pregnancy and miscarriage likely the rest of the relationship was in a honeymoon phase. Yeah. And I mean we see this in all of our relationship is like she she's usually at the year point when they have like a whole season on Summerhouse, which is really interesting. They say, I think I read some book once that two years was actually like the end, the official end of the Honey Moon period in New York City. It is one year because everything here is faster. So true city that never sleeps. So yeah awesome. And on TV to write like that must speed things up as well. Oh yeah. Which so much to get into that with Carl but Austin. Yeah, I mean, I don't have too much to say about Austin. It was like a huge chase and sort of battling to spare a little to like some competitiveness she can have with women where I think she's someone who I think can really ride with girls. But I guess if she doesn't feel like those girls are on her side, they become her enemies. And then instead of sort of like addressing like feelings, like there may have been a point with Sierra where she could have been like, Hey, I really like ten. Like, it sucks that that happened this way, but like there could have been some conversation they had not necessarily Sierra O's link to anything she didn't know or wasn't part of it. But some place where Lindsay could have been more open and honest with you or Ciara or Austin about feeling hurt that like she came in with this expectation, it's not what it is, but instead she like kind of doubles down on some reactive like I'm going to try to get something validated in me by competing and trying to get his attention. And we see it play out later in the next season of Summer House, where Austin comes to the summer house and like she's like finally I went, Look, I win. And she makes out with him right in front of Sierra. Yeah, that was definitely sorry I was Team Sierra and all of this. I know we're not doing teams, but there was something where she really needed. She needed that like win. And I actually don't think it had anything to do with Sierra. It was just all about herself. And I think that's why she was so caught off guard that Sierra took it that way. And I guess that goes back to the splitting aspect of it. Like she was really only focused on her own experience. Um, so it was very interesting. But so getting into Karl. Yeah, let's get into the juice of this. Yeah, let's get into the red. So we have a lot to say. I know. So, Karl, basically, they tried to date the first time they had hooked up off camera the finger bang that around the world that's heard around the world. Yes. So finger bang, did it happen if you don't hear it, which I wasn't telling about us telling us about it then did it happen? So they get together, they try to date, they go on essentially one date that Karl describes as the worst date he's ever been on. But and then he definitely is the you know, he screws it up by hitting on a berries instructor and sort of ruining everything he does. He they get into two fights that I want to break down real quick and then bites that they break up and he kind of chickens out. No, they didn't break up. Okay. I did rewatch some of this. They never break up because they were never really. The whole time. Karl said, I'm not your boyfriend. We're not boyfriend and girlfriend. And she's kind of like we are. Yeah. Like she doesn't say we are, but she just keeps moving as if they are. And it just feels like they're into different, like, realities of what's happening between them. And I think Karl has a really hard time asserting himself, especially when he's not drunk. And we're seeing that play out now and his sobriety and how much he's, like, avoiding, because the moments where he does say, we're not boyfriend girlfriend, it's because he's drunk. Oh, yeah. I mean, the first date she brings fireball shots and wants to play a game where they ask each other questions and take these shots. But I mean, watching it, I think they take five or six shots within seemingly a short amount of time. So the fact that they're not puking, I give them a lot of prompts. Interesting. Because their their connection is based on like they met on Summer House. I remember hearing something about how they met at Summer House and so a lot of their friendship and connection was built around like getting drunk and partying. And so there's this duality between where that's like the source of fun and joy in their relationship and where the source of conflict and tension. Yeah. And I think Lindsay, which I think a lot of women in New York, because drinking is a huge cultural thing in New York, like there's there's an aspect to her where she likes to she she drinks and then she can fully express her emotions, whatever they are. Because when you see her have that, it that's where she is, right? She's only in her emotions. She has no connection to the other parts of her mind and thinking and feeling that are grounded in reality. She is like all in those feelings and in there is all those attachment wounds, all of the abandonment and rejection. And that's where she goes so fast. It's like, we need to solidify what this is. We need to like have this timeline. We need this like marriage because I need to feel a sense of security with you. Yeah. And so that first date, you know, he very openly tells her, you know, I'm really struggling with my, you know, commitment issues because my parents just got divorced. He alludes to the fact that her father, his father cheated on his mom and really abused his mom either emotionally or maybe, I don't know. But and he's really struggling with this and he wants it, but he doesn't know how to do it. And he's sort of telling her that and she's like, Well, I have issues from my childhood too, but get over it. Like I don't have commit issues, so get over it. Which is so funny because I'm like, No girl, you got you got issues too you don't even like. I think she recognizes she has issues, but she's not recognizing that they create problems in her relationships, that there's like this this detachment between like I can feel my issues in my like emotions, but I'm not seeing how those are contributing to my behaviors in the way I like, react and the way I defend, the way I like to engage in relationships with people. Yeah. And she's like, well, the feels like excuses. And I'm like, a part of me is like, okay, put yourself back to being in New York dating with men in that age range. Peter Pan syndrome is so prevalent. So a part of me understands her being like, Come on, this is just an excuse if you wanted like a family and that you would do it. But she's like, You're not holding space for me and my vulnerability right now. And she just sort of gets up and starts yelling at him and really reacts, you know, activated. Lindsay is shows up and they do walk in that moment each other like you're not going to show you're not going to show me as the bad guy, right? Because he's like, you're not making space for my vulnerability. And she's not because she can't tolerate it. But in response to that, she's like, Oh, like there's something core inside of her. And I don't think this is like a conscious thing she's thinking. I think this is probably pattern within her life, but there's this like, I now need to get louder and need to make my feelings more dominant so that their vulnerability is as I take up the space. So after he breaks up with her, he tries to break up with her twice, sort of. And you're right, one of the times that they're they're trying to go out in the Hamptons, he wants to go out. She wants to stay home. And, you know, she's like, stay home with me, choose me, choose me. And he's like, no, we're not even together without boyfriend girlfriend. Like we've kissed. That's the extent of that's what we are doing. And I want to go out and she starts pushing him, like physically pushing him and he's like, Don't touch me. He has such a painful scene to watch. I rewatched that one because when he wrote about that, I just like I could feel both of their, like their pain and that of like. They love each other as friends and they're just like not ready to be together. And I almost felt like Carl was so triggered by the physical pushing of him that I wonder if there's more behind that as far as like his dad and his mom. I don't know. But, you know, he's like, do not touch me. Do not touch me. And her physical touching and like pushing him feels very like reactive. And it's something that, you know, I think women sometimes we want to just shake. The men were with it like, you know, but that's where you get into. You know, I don't know. Like, again, his parents, you know, more recently like there's some things that are seem abusive to me and we don't know we don't know what happened on camera. I thought in that moment, like said, we want to be very careful about using. Yeah, I don't I just don't think Lindsay should have been pushing him in that moment. That was like a line cross. I felt like that it was a way in which she was trying to gain control by it. And there is a manipulation aspect to that of if I get louder, if I get physical, if I get more demanding, I'll get sort of what I want from you instead of just accepting or taking a step back to understand why is this person not responding the way I want them to or giving meeting my needs? Yeah. And so then he breaks up with he tries to break up with her and sort of chickens out and then the next weekend comes back with a little bit more I want to touch on the activated scene because that's another flashback that we see a lot. It's basically Lindsay's like. Yet. Karl gets blackout drunk after this breakup and breakup, I should say in quotes, and starts flipping out and Lindsay's like, Don't activate me. And then Amanda brings her aside and says, I think Karl wants to be with you, but he knows he can't. And that's why he's getting blackout drunk. And I thought that was probably true in that moment. Totally. But in that moment, if you think about where Lindsay was, she's not in some, like, grounded, mindful place of like, why is Karl behaving this way? She's still reeling from feeling rejected and from feeling abandoned. And now he's being, like, blatantly rude to her at a dinner party and kind of like calling her out. She probably in that moment feels disrespected. She probably feels. I just imagine so much her. And when I think about that, do activate any comment. I think about like how she wants to have like that toddler in her child tantrum. Like, that's what it is. It's like I allow myself to just feel all my feelings in a reckless disregard for how it impacts anybody else or even myself. And that's the place where Karl's like meanness to her. And she actually by saying, don't activate me, she's actually pretty, you know, I'll give her credit. At that moment, she was, like, almost grounded herself in that. Like she saw he was way more of a, you know, emotional threat in that moment than, you know. So getting into present day, they get together after Kyle and Amanda's wedding are car sober now? His father passed away. Lindsay was his best friend during this time. She was like a stabilizing. So. Like, this is where Lindsay shines. Where she can be this person you can go to to get support, right? Like she was really. I remember her. She was it was her birthday that his brother died and she was a miss. I need the most special birthday. Was able to put all of that aside to be there for Karl when his brother died. And that was like, that's where you saw their friendship. Or I felt that like, I'm having chills thinking about it because it was just like, these two are really good friends and there is a place in which they care about each other very deeply and trust each other. And I will say production did a great job ceding the relationship on Karl's end because Lindsay's having this hot tub house summer. And they really showed Karl sort of watching her from afar, being like, you know, I think she deserves better and wanting to be that for her. And I think I was just so blown away in the early stages of her relationship, how Karl really showed up for her, the way she wanted in every way that like, well, it's coming and is definitely doing therapeutic work. I think his brother died. I think he went into therapy. He was probably I hope he was doing some sort of like substance abuse counselor. I think whether that's AA, which it'll necessarily fully agree with, but like whatever sort of spaces helps support your sobriety and allow you to like understand which I could go on about like people, places, things and how like Karl coming to Summer House is like the biggest threat to his sobriety and then this relationship also being a bit strapped to it. But so for another time, yeah, so early on in their relationship, I remember watching them on Winter House. I think we talked about this a lot. We were like, were their souls like fully removed? Because it felt like they were so they were so controlled and they wanted to make sure their relationship was perceived in a certain way. And so like they were both walking on eggshells. And that's what I think made it feel like who are these people? This is how they behave when they're being their authentic selves. It was wild to watch them on our house. It was literally like, you know, when you see someone on Instagram and then they start using a lot of filters and become like Meghan Markle, like American Orchard, Revive Reverse Riviera. That's how it felt. Like Lindsay was like, I'm going to cook this dinner. I've been cooking a lot and I'm sober and my skin looks amazing. And like all these things that you're like, okay, I mean, if this really is a big change for both of them, it seemed positive, but it was also like, are these humans? Or were they replaced with, like, aliens or like a witch's smell? Like sometimes I was like, did Lindsay put Karl under, like, a witch's spell? Now, another thing to note is when they got together into their relationship, Karl was not totally eight years sober and all of the like. Recovery, research and interventions are around like don't make big life changes or commit to relationships or get engaged within the first year. And he didn't quite. And so she's like, I got sober to get him to that first year. But there wasn't this consideration of like how getting into this very intense relationship impacts his mental health and sobriety journey. Yes. So this is an important piece of the puzzle. It's Kyle Guerrero once again spills the beans in winter house to say. Okay. Lindsay saying she got sober to help Carl. Which I believe that that was the discussion that Carlton Lindsay had but that Karl told Kyle privately that he was going to end that relationship if she didn't stop drinking because she was so irrational and they would fight so bad when she was drinking. So it was definitely a backdoor way for Carl to ask Lindsay to stop drinking. And I think this plays into his like up conflict avoidance and it was very manipulative. I don't like that he did that, but but I don't think that was the intention. I don't think he is intentionally manipulative person. I think he is weak. I think he's also very I think he has avoidance and weakness within himself around wanting to avoid conflict. And then he got into this relationship with someone who's very conflict driven. And so it puts him in this bind where then he goes into to these like survival strategies that are so wrong, right? They become manipulative or unhealthy in different ways for himself and for the partner. Yeah. And I think also that another thing that came up was, you know, Lindsay watched it on Winter House and that was a conflict in their relationship. But to me, what was strange to me was I understand why she would be mad seeing that I would be mad. But also, did they not sit and have a real conversation where Carl said, Yeah, I don't like you drinking and like, let's see how this other conversations look like. Like, probably not. Like Karl has a very hard time being direct about his needs and expectations of his partner. But like and especially now that he's sober, it's probably even harder because he doesn't have alcohol to, like, fuel him to like, kind of allow all that stuff that he pushes down to, like, explode out of him. But, well, also as a couple's counselor. Coming in this couple one sober, you know, got into a relationship too soon, probably. And then you have, you know, this partner that drinks and, you know, regardless of I don't no problem. But she can be very emotional when she drinks in a way that's, you know, starts arguments. Like to me, I would think one of the earliest conversations should be let's discuss what is going to be a frank conversation and try to create a space for Karl to be open of, like, can you live the rest of your life with someone who may continue to have a relationship with alcohol that impacts the way you guys communicate? And I'm surprised, considering how much they talk about being in couples counseling, that this conversation wasn't I don't know, one of the first conversations I'm sure was had. Sure it was had. But again. And like. I think it's really, really hard to say. We can't say what's happening in our couples therapy, especially since we never get any insight into it, like going a film session. That would have been cool to see, though. I you know, it's it's hard to get these film sessions because most therapists and if it would be on cameras likely that they're not going to want to do it. Yeah. That's why you get all these relationship coaches on all these shows. But well, there's no license threat, there's less liability. So in the rewatch, you know, obviously their first season together in the summer house was a couple. The conflict is really about Danielle and like she sort of called out. But a lot of her concern is around this fight that they had in Montauk before the season and that it was such a bad fight that Carl got into a cab and drove all the way from Montauk back to the city, which they just don't seem like they're dealing with issues right now, putting up again like a front. It's a little less of a front than we see at Winter House, but there's still this big front that like, we're perfect. We are the perfect couple. We are the perfect Bravo couple nonetheless. Right. Like, I think there we have to mention where, you know, the way in which like we have Paige and Craig come together and everyone's obsessed with Paige and Craig. There's different sort of bravo couples that have come out over time and where it's it feels very important that there this investment of like we were the best friend turned relationship and we are this like symbol on Bravo of like something meaningful and important and we can't like let there be any cracks in that. And they're making an insane amount of money off of that. Like, but those two relationship is a business almost. Oh, yeah. Jackson But they're saying this, right? Like we're still a business together. So, yeah, between these seasons, you're seeing just endless Instagram posts of Mexico, free trips doing these things. And, you know. I think I can't fault anyone for that. People are standing them. Everyone's like, Oh my God. Karl and Lindsey, we love them. We're so happy they're together. They see and they seem good, right? They seem good because of Instagram, because we're not seeing the actual live life of it. Yeah. So one argument that I totally had forgotten even happened honestly, because I kind of forgot she existed was Maya. Justice for Maya. Justice for Maya. I know she kind of disappeared and I was like, forgot about her, but I think she's, like, too normal and healthy. And so she's not that interesting. For reality TV, this is a theme. Is the theme. So she comes into the season. Her and Karl had been friends. They had done Family Feud together in L.A. and again off camera. So many of the Lindsey trigger points happen off camera. So unsatisfying they get in this fight, which makes us hard to know what's reality, because it's hard to trust Lindsey as a narrator of reality, like when she says Karl yells at her. We're like, is he or is it like a perceive? Like, I'm sure he's not being like so kind or gentle, but like I don't know if I can trust her. Narration Of, of that. Yeah, definitely. And this is a similar thing with Maya is Maya is saying this thing happened in this cab and you know, she's, like you said, some of the meanest things anyone's ever said to me, which I think is very strong. And coming from Maya, I, you know, she's always been so authentic. She is a more she's a more reliable narrator. And Lindsey, they they have this talk on the beach where they try to hash it out. And Lindsey's like arguing some of the finer details with her, and she just kind of shuts or down is like there's no point you're never going to agree with what what I remember happening in the cab, which is fascinating in a sense, because Lindsay was in theory sober at where she says she was sober. So she it's not sobriety that disconnects her from taking in another person's experience. Which is fascinating. But before that, Maya tries to talk to Carl and she's like, This happened. Lindsay's telling me that I'm trying to date you, but I'm not. Wasn't and Karl, you know, shut her down. He's like, I'm with Lindsay. She's my priority. She's the only thing that matters. I don't care about our friendship, basically, and idealizing you. Great. Isn't he amazing? But, I mean, in that moment, I was like, well, damn. Karl is giving Lindsay everything she said she wanted from every guy. I was like, Wow, you know, he really is stepping up. And I was just thinking, you know, from that first round of dating, I think from that first date, she was like, These are the things I want. And Karl was like, If I'm going to date her again, I know these are the things I need to do. And and I think being on his sober journey, that's a lot of things you learn in AA, right? Like, you know, being accountable, making your bed every morning, going for a run every morning. These are the things we see him do on Summer House. So I think when he approached the relationship in the same way, like I'm going to have accountability and this is like a huge jump forward. But in their more recent fight that they just had about his career, where he's trying to talk to her about going back to Loverboy, he is like, you gave me a deadline by Labor Day. I had to have a job and I want to fulfill that commitment to you. And in that moment, I just saw that Lindsay was like, yes, of course. And I mean, I don't expect her to change, you know, the rules she sort of set out for him. But I just thought in that moment I was like, give him that credit that you gave him, you know, a deadline and he's action. But there does need to be some, like, flexibility. She becomes very rigid. It's very rigid of like this is what I want. And anything that doesn't meet it is wrong. And that isn't necessarily fair to half of another person, especially when it involves their career, which is really more their life than your life. So or a lot of things about them. I think you can have these non-negotiables, but not everything can be a non-negotiable. But that first season that they were together, he really he proposes to her, he stands up for her. It's funny because the one fight they got into with Kyle and he sort of shows up in an unsustainable way. He does, because in the Kyle fight, I was actually surprised, which you see her later lash out to him when she's drinking. And I felt that that was probably more related to the Kyle fight because he didn't really stand up for her very well when they were fighting Kyle and him getting this whole fight about lover boy. And he basically blames Lindsay for him wanting to leave Loverboy. And in that fight, you know, Kyle's drunk and irrational and she's yelling at everyone, but mostly her. And I was surprised she didn't get more angry because that was really the time when Karl should have stood up for her and he didn't really like if that was me, I would have been really mad the next day. But she kind of let that go, but then later kind of starts egging him about other things. Like I think she sometimes let things go and then the act, which we all do, that's fair. But otherwise, that season was, you know, I'm in love, getting engaged and being happy. And then coming into this season, it just seems like so much happened. And it's one that's just dropped, right? Like the mask sort of dropped. It's like mind blowing to watch. And even at the reunion, they were so united and strong. Then I'm like, What happened? Like, really? And I have to think watching the show back is toxic for their relationship, because I imagine but I also imagine that like after, like this is now a year later, a year after, like, right, you're going through that like you get engaged. It's very honeymoon. After that, you go through kind of like a second honeymoon period after an engagement. And now things are becoming real and they have to like really plan this like, life together. And so this is putting a lot of pressure on Lindsay to like make sure she has that her partner is going to meet all of her expectations. They're going to have a job. Are you going to be able to take care of me and a child? And for Karl, I can imagine that's like he feels this like like, can I do those things? I don't know. And I don't know if I can do them the way she wants. And I know she's someone if I can't do it the way she wants, it ain't going to be good. And I feel like Karl actually does this, like, beautiful job of like when he is upset, trying to start with his feelings and not start with like you're doing this. Like when they were having that fight in the kitchen in this most recent episode, she's like, What's wrong? What's wrong? And he's like, I'm feeling really frustrated and he's not going like, You're doing this, which she does, right? There's a lot of her, like, starting with like, you're doing this. And that's why and I feel like Karl has done a lot of work to try to, like, own that he's responsible for his feelings and responsible for his triggers, but also, like, how do I get my partner to like meet certain needs of mine? And I think whenever he starts with a feeling that puts Lindsay at more threat because she's like, Oh, gosh, now you're going to. Looks like the victim, and I can't have that. She's a really hard time. And that's what I was thinking, is like if I was working with them for like couples therapy standpoint, one of the things that would be really important to me is like working on this sort of like duality idea of like you have to to have a successful relationship. You can't come into arguments like if, if you're expressing your feelings to win the argument or to be right, the relationship loses. And so it has to be about holding space that like we both have feelings and we both have experiences and they're going to be different, but they're also both valid. And so in that conversation, it's not that Lindsay was wrong for being like questioning him about going back to Loverboy. Like, that's super valid, but it's where she has like no space for like, let me take in some of what he's feeling in this moment as well. And it becomes very then like kind of goes into this like you're either team Lindsay or team. And I'm seeing it play out all over Instagram right now. Like people being Karl, Karl masterminded this whole thing. Karl is like a huge manipulator. But I think Karl is just trying to be seen and heard in the relationship. And Lindsay has a hard time staying here, hearing her partner, because she feels like if I do that, I have to accept that I'm wrong or that I've done something bad. And it's just it's not that simple. It's not so simple as like either one of you is right and one of you is wrong. In most relationship issues, you both have valid points. Yeah. And you know, something that I didn't even know anything about until I started doing couples therapy was, you know, co regulating with your partner where it's like you both are together. Like a lot of people in individual therapy, you learn just regulating yourself, your own emotions and how you're taking things in. But CO Regulating is really both of you as a partner, realizing we need to regulate our emotions together so that, you know, you're not noticing too. As a couple, you become a combined nervous system. So when one of you becomes activated, it is very easy for then the other person to become activated. Not to use Lindsay's word of activation, I'm using it a little differently. Well, it's so it's so true. Like and Lindsay really needed someone to to tame that activation as well. But the thing with co regulation is not that you're responsible for your partner's regulation, because that can become a toxic thing that we saw with with Karl in that first season. They came back right before this one. They came back together where it felt like he felt the responsibility. And you can see it now, too, of like, I need to make sure I keep her regulated. And that's not what co regulation is. Code of should is staying regulated in order for your partner to also stay regulated with you. And I think the two back to back cocaine Karl fights the first one is a little bit more clear. The second one definitely almost pushed Karl I think almost push him into drinking, to be honest, which is probably the worst thing that a partner could ever do to him, especially in this fragile state that he's in. But it was like you felt that moment and you felt the relationship. And in that moment it was like, how do they move? How how do they move past this? Especially, you know, shit? Like if she could take accountability for it, which she still isn't potentially they could repair. But like that was just a rupture that like the glasses broke it, it shattered all over the floor. There's no way to glue it back together. I could feel the relationship end in that moment. And I think Karl on the beach the first time they talked after the fight, like he did such a good job again of like centering his feelings and not blaming her and validating that she felt some type of way in that cab ride. And he was very calm and handled her just very well and she handled him very well. And it's almost like she had to come back again next weekend and do the fight again so she could win. That's almost what it felt like. Why are you having this same fight again when you know you're lucky he didn't break up with you? It's a fight. But, yeah, the cocaine Karl was was too too far. Like, it crossed a lot of boundaries, I think, for him. But I think one thing I want to just quickly get into as like a production person is like there's a lot of narrative out there right now that Karl set this up or he's manipulating or I guess a part of me maybe doesn't think that highly of Karl that he could do all those things. But regardless of that, there's a crew, especially on a show like Summer House. When I tell you there's an endless amount of producers that work on the show, I mean, there's a whole group of producers that work in the field. There's a whole group of producers that work in post. There are so many executives, you know, this is a humongous show. So the fact that, like Karl would be moving in a way where he could text producers and say, show up with a crew tomorrow here is like not how it works. You know, there's so many people involved in it. I have a feeling that after that phone call that he had with his mom after the second cocaine Karl fight, producers reached out to his mom and said, We really want to do a scene pre-wedding. Can we set this up? And I think producers did that with his mom without Karl being too involved, to be honest. And you said something interesting to me when we were doing our voice together about this, about how like these producers have. They're not just producers. They become And I think I'm going to be curious to see how that plays out in like the final breakup scene of like everyone saying Karl called producers and had them come to, like, film him, dump her. And I don't think that's what played out. I think Karl was very scared of Lindsay and wanted to have some sort of containment for that conversation of not getting married right now and wasn't necessarily trying to break up with her on TV. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, and I think actually Lindsay breaks this down in the Nick Viall podcast that she did, too, where she kind of almost says that I don't believe that he intended to break up with her. I think that producers knew they ended this season on them fighting and if they were going to film the wedding or even if they were going to come back next season, they could not end the season on that. And also, I think maybe because Scannable had happened, they were like, okay, we do have some more leeway to sort of pick up and do this continuous shooting if we need to, if we. Again, there's so many people involved in this, like just to do that. One shoot is thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars of crew money. I mean, it has to go it has to go all the way up the chain to the highest powers at Bravo to say we need to do one pickup shoot. And there's just so many people involved. And I think that that probably happened without Karl being involved. I think that they were like, We need another scene. This needs to happen. Let's get approval that they probably would through some continuous conversations that were be having that were being had between Karl and his producer, who I imagine Karl trusted and felt a certain way towards and rightly felt like this is like almost a safe, like, therapeutic person who can make sure this this conversation. Oh, yeah. I mean, as producers, you're constantly just asking people how they feel and just, you know, supporting them because their whole job is showing up and being the raw, real, vulnerable people. And, you know, that's the content that you need to get. And so there's definitely so much conflict where, you know, you're you don't know if you're doing the right thing for this person. But at the end of the day, it's a documentary. You're just supporting this person, telling their truth. And I think they knew they couldn't end the season and come in next season with them married potentially. And the thing is, if they were going to film the wedding, that was going to be a budget that was going to be like they had to justify again so much to Bravo. And I think there's a good chance that conversation they were filming wasn't even intended for Summer House. It could have been intended to make sure that they like their wedding special. Exactly. So they just needed it. They don't. I mean, again, I want to see how it plays out, but I just know story wise they felt they needed it. And I think Karl was probably a part of that. Or it could have been like Karl reaching out to them to be like, I don't know what or they're talking like in conversation about the wedding and they're seeing this like doubt in Karl. And that's what sort of streamlining like let's see what happens when we put them together again. And it's interesting, Karl, being conflict avoidant. You go on reality shows, the whole thing is being called conflict. You have to have these conversations, you know, and Kyle is really good at it. That's why he's the guru, you know, his guru always in his ear telling him what to do because. Well, Kyle, so interesting because I actually think reality TV in a lot of ways has been really good for him. Oh, see his. Arc of becoming a more woke, sort of in-touch person in a lot of ways. Obviously, this week we saw some of his lower points in his relationship. But I think when we do see him become, there is some like growth arc we see in him throughout the summer house seasons. Yeah. So there's three questions that we want to answer at the end of every episode. And the first one is, is she good for the show? And as a reality TV producer, I have to say, she shows up, she gives it, she's authentic. I would advise her stay out of the comments. Just do you boo. But like, yeah, she she's great for the show as a consumer, I think I agree that I think like she's such a divisive person and that is good for TV because I think people like to feel this like intensity of emotion and like even for myself, like I go to watch this stuff to kind of absorb myself into other people's dramas and craziness that I don't have to feel like I'm having to hold space for in any specific therapeutic way I can just like, Oh let it wash over me. But what I do think is that if she continues to like lack this ability to take in other people's experiences, one, I wonder, does she like end up eventually like isolating herself from everyone in a way that, like, doesn't feel good to watch or to just becomes very tiring on us as like you know, is it sustainable for us to keep watching her go through relationships in this way or to continue to behave in a certain way? For especially if you and I were a similar age to Lindsay, there is this like intense, like way in which I feel like I, I see this parallel of us, like, moving through different life stages together. But as I grow and become more grounded and she doesn't, I feel more and more disconnected from her. Yeah. And I mean, going to the you know, the next question is, is the show good for her? And let's be honest, the show's good for her. She's made a whole brand out of financially. Yeah don't act differently sandwiches but emotionally I think the show has really I think we see even in that like first relationship with Everett where she is able to hold some accountability or some like understanding of her role and responsibility in a relationship. I think the show has totally rewarded like toxic behavior. It rewards tantrum outbursts, like as like, you know, when you're doing parenting support, one of the things you say is like you don't give attention to the tantrum if you want it to end, but we are giving all of our attention and feedback to it, even if it's negative attention that is reinforcing. And again, it goes back to the audience loves her because most women want to have tantrums because we're mad. We have a lot to be mad about. And she, Arianna, said something very interesting about female rage that I really like, that we want to look away from it or like we don't want to like create space for female rage. And I really connected with that. And I think that's what we loved about Lindsay at the beginning. But it's not that she can't have rage, but she's got a whole other she's got to hold the duality for rage and for the accountability of, like, what? That rage the impact that rage has. Yeah. So is the show good for us with her on it? I think ending this season, I'm so we're going to have to do a follow up on their Step reunion. By the way, we before we go to that, I also want to say that I feel like one thing that comes up for me and I know we talked about a little bit earlier about Lindsay being good like. Good for the show, good for us. And maybe it fits into like what we're going to say is like, I think Lindsey is a strong woman who owns her sexuality and I think she is at her core a feminist And I think that is really good. And maybe we want to talk about that now. But yeah, no, totally. I think I think there is a feminism to her. I think that's why I was very triggered this season, which kept bringing up Sandoval and wanting to be like Ariana. And I was like, This feels like calculated by yourself, you know, to be Ariana. But, you know, Ariana is definitely the queen of the Bravo universe right now where I think she was like, I am like Ariana. I want to be like Ariana because, you know, she's very strong in her beliefs and so is Lindsay. But Lindsay's beliefs sometimes or the way she handles things just goes so left that you're like, Girl, bring it back. One thing that we were talking about earlier is, you know, I wish she would have just done the opposite of what she typically does with Carl in the arguments. I'm like, girl, you've done this pattern before. Just do the opposite and just see what happens. Just see what happens if you did the opposite and she continuously does the same, the same pattern. And I'm like, I just wish she had just taken a step back and said, What do I ultimately want? Which is a happy and healthy relationship and just done the opposite. Seen how Karl reacted to that. And they could have built something different because sometimes I'm like, I feel like this relationship could have worked, but I know you feel opposite, but yeah, I just think there's too much work they each need to do on themselves as individuals before they could have that healthy because like, yes, you're saying she should do the opposite. And I think that's like we're talking about how this is sort of a dialectical behavioral therapy, which is something that's often used with people who have borderline personality traits, which I think is sort of a hot topic with Lindsey of like the ways in which like she can sometimes behave in ways that are similar to borderline traits. And I think there's just so much she has to work, she has to do around regulation before she could even get to the point to do an opposite action. Because she's already so right. Like all of her behavior. It's not. It all feels very unconscious. It feels like she behaves in a way that's directly in response towards to pain, to emotions, and to do an opposite action. You have to have some access to that level, like prefrontal planning, the organizing mind. And when she is triggered like that, she does not have access to it. Doesn't appear that she has access to that information. Yeah, definitely. And so is the show good for us with her on it, which I feel like, you know, she still delivers every season and the season is stellar, mostly because of her relationship with Karl just from an entertainment standpoint alone. But she really needs to try and next season and this pattern of playing the victim, I think that that wears on audiences. I think that we love to see an accountable like star or someone who makes a lot of mistakes but then apologizes and tries. And we rally for those people. And I think she's she's gone a bit too far playing the victim. I think I would love to see her come into the reunion and fully own cocaine. Karl Moment. I think that was a very toxic moment on her part, and I think she didn't do a good job apologizing for that And I can't have like I did this. But yeah, and even, you know, producers did an amazing job of pushing her and interview and saying, why did you say that? Why did you say that? And she's like, I don't know why I said that. I just did. I just said I just said it. And I thought that was so revealing. I was like, What is happening when she went that deeper work is she doing on herself? She doesn't know why she says things that are so big. And does she even recognize how big that moment was like? I don't like the way maybe like you or I or a lot of us viewers saw like this is this moment was the end of the world. Like I saw it online. Everyone's like, this was the end. And I very much resonated with that. But I don't think the way she says she was blindsided. To me, it tells you like I don't think she sees her impact on other people. I don't think she has the ability to tolerate to hold that impact that she has on other people. I think that's work she could do, but it would be really hard and I don't think she could do it while she's on television. Yeah. And I think, you know, in fairness to her in The Blindsided, I mean, I think if Karl was stronger and himself and stronger and what he wanted and needed, I think and not conflict avoidance, I think he would have sat on the beach with her and said, after you said that about me, I you know, you're not really taking accountability and I need to end this relationship. I really feel that he should have been stronger in that moment and told her that that was completely unacceptable. And then for her to come back and do it the next weekend, and then his response of that would be, oh, I'm going to just take a Friday night off. Mm hmm. I mean, I see how trying his career to be like this is the issue in the relationship that that like she wants something, right? Like it feels like they're deflecting from a bigger core problem between them. Oh, yeah. So I think if she's going to stay on the show for me, like just from a producer standpoint, I would, I would say, hey, look, you know, take some accountability. Like obviously as producers, we never coach cast that something cast has to do on their own. And that's a fine balance because, you know, you have a lala right now being like I'm in my soft era and like producing her own storyline and that's never good, but cast members have to come up with it on their own. But at the same time, I think that's what she would really need for for fans to continue to be behind her. Or does she move to housewives? Do we move her to New York Housewives? I mean, I would would her I think something about summer house that feels different than the housewives. It's like these. We believe these are like friends who are growing up. These people are mostly grown. Like, do we just move her to a situation where like we accept that this is like who she is? And so she's going to play in this dynamic in sort of like a different way. I mean, she is honestly a Bethenny Frankel to me. I see that for her. I've got a twinge of Teresa Giudice and like her inability to see herself or or other people's feelings. I mean, we're talking top tier housewives like these are the people who built Bravo. So I think when you say and I do want to end on a positive note, because as many times as I've I've loved watching Lindsay's chaotic energy and maybe a toxic way myself home. I do give her a lot of credit. You know, I give anyone who's willing to put their entire lives on TV like so much. She is a feminist icon. She's a truly problematic person, but she is a feminist icon. Yeah, we've we've started with problematic person and we're ending with feminist icon like that. But I think it's it's true. I think she is a feminist icon. It's is kind of I've come to learn so much just in this conversation about why the Bravo fandom feels so so just any way about her. It's really interesting. And yeah, I mean, we're talking top tier housewife status. Like, I would love to see her to rhony. Yeah. Blew it up anyway, so they might as well. I'm over there and they have. They need so much help over there in some ways. But yeah, I do think I would love to see Bravo move some of these people to other shows and see how that works. I think. I mean, Winter House worked for the first few seasons so well, so why not? But yeah. So is there any last words on this? my message to Lindsay is that like, you can heal these parts of yourself, but you have to be willing to do that work. And I want to honor her. That work is really hard. Yeah. And so, so much with feminism and the feminist movement is, you know, falling into this whole black and white, you know, men are bad, women are good. And did it all. And all of that is patriarchal thinking, like true feminism, true. You know, women power, women, feminine energy is exploring all different aspects of yourself. It is not just black and white thinking. And so I think she embodies that in a lot of ways. And, you know, you can hold someone accountable and and say, hey, this part of you that's so fragile and vulnerable, you're you. That wound that I see in you, you're the way that you're trying to heal that wound or fix that wound is causing you more pain. And if you just are in your, as Lala would say, soft era, I don't want I don't actually want Lindsay to be in a softer or interesting. I mean, I don't want her to be in a soft area that she is. I don't think she needs to be soft, but I do think she needs to put down some guards. Yeah. I mean, I would love there's a balance there. And I think Lola's trying to do that for herself and calling it a soft power. Well, I think Lindsay definitely needs to figure out her relationship with alcohol, too. So. But I think this was a success. Thank you, everyone, for listening to, you know, our first episode and leave some feedback and some and let us know who you want us to do next. There's so many people that we already touched on in this pot, so. Yeah. right. See you next week. Or maybe a couple of weeks. We might need some time to get this together. Eventually, it will be a weekly for now. Go with the flow of us. Yeah. Yes. Be a super fan.