Episode 3: Kathryn Dennis Calhoun from "Southern Charm"

Kathryn Dennis Calhoun may have left Bravo's "Southern Charm" last season, but she's back in the headlines after a recent DUI arrest. In light of this news, reality television producer Jenny and therapist Sam have decided to revisit Kathryn's time on the show to analyze how it might still be affecting her. From her debut season, where she was entangled with several of the Southern Charm men, to her tumultuous relationship with former senator Thomas Ravenel, and the influence of her powerful family on her decisions, we dive into it all. 

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Transcript

Unknown: Welcome back to Unhinged on camera. I'm Jenny. I'm Sam. We're here with another episode. We had a lot of thoughts of the different people we wanted to talk about today. We went from Kyle and Bo and her sisters to Teresa and Melissa. But after news broke this week about Katherine and Dennis Calhoun getting arrested for a DUI, we felt it might be interesting to deep dove into her. Yeah, she was on Southern charm from the beginning up until just last season. They she wasn't on right But I think she is the definition of unhinge something I've realized too. This being our third episode is we really do a great job of making everything feminism and I love that for. So I think that's part of both of our value system and identity. And so when we are thinking about the world and people in relationships or seeing it through that lens, yeah. And I think Lala Kent Pro casting couch feminism is going to, you know, play out in this episode too because Katherine is a bit of a social climber herself. But to start out. So Katherine Dennis Calhoun. she comes on the first season. And Sam actually pointed this out to me. She had studied politics and worked as an intern in D.C., I believe, but also studied feminism, which I thought was really interesting. And when she comes on first season, Thomas is obviously a senator. I think for Bravo to was kind of a big get to get this like former senator that was disgraced to join the cast. The show was brought together actually by Whitney. He was sort of a film maker. his mother was high society. And Charleston, he wanted to make the show. So he actually brought the cast together and was a producer and still is a producer on the show. I don't think he does a lot creatively. I think he mostly just brings cast in, right? The show is kind of about like these upper class. What of the bourgeoisie? White people, essentially. Because they're all white. Yeah. In the South, they're kind of living this, like, southern debutante life. It kind of feels like, which is this intersection between, like, politics and just like old money. And it's really interesting, too, like, they have this, like, interesting group of people the first season. And I think Kathleen isn't even technically part of the full time cast the first season. I think she kind of comes in as like a friend of or like this kind of outside person who ends up being like the person the show is about for the first couple of seasons. Yeah, it's crazy because she wasn't cast. This comes up throughout that first season where there's a lot of hints of I think even Craig who liked her at first and then sort of turns on her and then comes back around to her but says, like, I think Kathryn just wants to be close with our group of friends, which I call Felix. She comes on as bait to the men. Like that's what she is. She's like the worm. And she's. Yeah, but I mean, grown into this, like, fishing pool of like. Yeah, but I think Craig is the one who's the least associated with that, like, rich lifestyle, with that, like, lifestyle of fame. Like we have Shep, who is like a trust fund kid who comes from money, who comes from an established Rose family. I don't actually know it, but I think people in the South do than we have, you know, Thomas, the disgraced politician who's trying to get his, but his name is the name of the famous bridge there Right. Like he's got this name that has power. And then we were having it also has all this power. And then we kind of just have like Craig, who's like. No one's heard of him. He's want to be like at the time he's this want to be a lawyer. Yeah. He's sort of the in I think him and Cameron in a way. Cameron was the kind of leading voice of reason, but Craig is sort of that newbie. He doesn't come from any money, so that's sort of where he comes from. But yeah, he's not from the South either, which is interesting. He's from Delaware, the North. He's a Yankee. but there's a lot of inferences that Kathryn is trying to sort of come on the show. And I think actually in the reunion of the first season, when he says it blatantly, he says, I think she just wanted to be on the show. So there is that element. But the first episode Thomas is thinking about to say, because didn't they all just want to be on the show? Yeah, Because which if we're going back to feminism, says a lot about like what they're saying about women. Well, it's interesting. Whitney says that because Whitney was the one who sort of put together this show. So he was the one who could have brought her on if he wanted to. They had that other main cast member, Jenna, the first season who was just a total died and I think they were trying to cast outside of the typical southern woman because she was sort of like punk rock, but she brought nothing to the table and then we never heard or saw of her again. But and yeah, Katherine almost becomes focused, like we're seeing scenes with her family and stuff. It's kind of wild. She wasn't. I think that was more of a decision on Bravo's part, probably being like, Well, she's bringing all the story because I think she got more scenes and Joanna did. But that first episode, Thomas is thinking about running for Congress again. Or Senate. Yeah, Senate. And he meets with this, you know, political operative. And the political operative was disgraced because he got charged for having cocaine. And so and he's basically like, you need to get married. And then, you know, you'll win this tenancy because you'll have your your thing together. So Thomas is on this weird mission to like meet a wife and get married and have kids and then enter Catherine. Because basically this political operatives like my you have so many women around, you just pick one and settle down. Love doesn't matter. Nothing else matters. Just pick one for your political career. And he's like, My bet is on Catherine Denis Cahoon because she's a powerful family. You're a powerful family. It doesn't matter that she's literally 21. Well, it does matter that she's 21. They're thinking she's young. She we can, like, control her because she's young and we can take advantage of the fact that she's this younger woman who's coming in and, you know, also wanting to, you know they probably know she comes from this family and that she's been trained to play this role as a woman within a family like this. Yeah. And so he's like, I knew her sort of in D.C. She was called Politics Barbie or something. He she's got really bright red hair, those first that first use it. And what's interesting is she's like it's almost like she's trying to play a bombshell. Oh, yeah. And what's interesting is Thomas is interested in talking to her about politics, and Whitney is like, interested in talking to her about politics, too. And like, everyone's wanting to invite her over to talk about politics, which is amazing because any time you see on camera, she's just half slurring her words and like never said anything of real quality. I mean, maybe she does outside of what we see on camera. But I feel that everyone's sort of attracted to her in a way, and I feel like she probably does have a lot of intelligence and a lot of interesting things to say. We just don't see it. I mean, some of that. Is that an intentional thing on like productions? Part of like we don't want to make her actually look like she can play the role. We want it to look like she's this kind of like Felicity and like not really actually intelligent, like not actually having anything to say, but is just kind of like this ditzy. Mm. Yeah. so we don't know how much backstory there is between her and Thomas before this first episode, but. basically her and Thomas, it seems like had some kind of relationship before the first episode they hook up. Also, it seems like she heard Whitney and hooked up at some point, either in between episodes or before the show started and then a couple episodes in. She hooks up with Shep, so it becomes this running theme that she's hooked up with three, three people. Craig at one point at this dinner party, calls out Katherine that she's hooked up with three people within three weeks at this party, and that's not class to him, classy, I don't know. But like, it definitely is like it's her body. She's empowered to do what she wants. She's 21. Like, think about, like the, the choices that you've made at 21. Yeah. Like how you slept with people, how you move through a room is very different. And I don't know, I don't think I imagine that in the South that has different meaning because culturally the South is different than, you know, we're from New York or from the the east. So it's interesting that the Yankee Craig is the one who is calling her out and slut shaming her. Hmm. You know, in a way that, like, almost the other guys are willing to, like, ignore that that's happening. Oh, yeah. Because even in the reunion, they're all talking about how they all hooked up with her, and. And he's like, this seems like a really weird, awkward conversation. And then Tom's like, when I was younger, maybe I would care, but I don't care now. And then they were like, No, we don't care is all fun and games. And I mean, it sets up Southern charm, which is a running pattern of everyone sort of sleeping with each other. And there's also this idea of like, I think it also sets up like that the boys aren't the problem. The girls are this whole theme of like the good old boys that we see playing with that Southern idea of, like, men are infallible while women are. Cause if they do the same thing or this, if they write, like, I imagine, like Shepp and Thomas and Whitney, all of them are sleeping with lots of different people at this time. We don't see it on camera. Oh, yeah, that's not their only partner. And so for it's like but only Catherine is being called out in this way and being pointed to as like it is wrong for you to be doing this at like 21, which is like, again, like it doesn't seem like a problem. It seems like that is part of like, you know. Growing up. It's part of, like, being young and. It seems like she like lives in two worlds a little bit like this one where she is expected to be a certain way and this other where like she's seeing like how guys get this like double standard Yeah. And I, you know what made me excited to talk about Catherine, aside from, you know, obviously the recent developments is a lot of people are really calling out Bravo right now for, you know, misogyny and, you know, Vanderpump Rules just being so slated to the men. And I was like, have you watched all of Southern Charm? Because that's all the seasons of Southern charm, the whole thing. And the girls coopt into it, too. Cameron is the worst. She is such like a guys guy who like, yes, she can be the voice of roots. She's kind of like a more intelligent Sheena where she like will come in and reason and talk to the guys, but then she will kind of like slut shame women and put down like we see her season after season kind of contribute to like this, like putting Catherine in her place type behavior of like who she she's on classy or she is right like she's not intelligent or she makes like bad decisions. Like there isn't this feeling of like, oh, she's like seeing this young girl being in pressured by these older, powerful men. And maybe I should step in as a woman and try to talk to her and try to, like, support her if she needs support. There's sort of this like, oh, no, I'm also going to be on Teen Dude and like, shame her. Yeah. And I think Patricia kind of plays that role in a toxic waste to because I mean, the the the accountability on Tom's end is so pathetic compared to what they hold Catherine to and also pretty early on her and Thomas hooked up and she's just blatantly telling everyone I might be pregnant and just going around saying I'm at this party, pulls them aside, I might be pregnant and it comes out of nowhere. And then they drunkenly go and get a pregnancy test and it comes back error. And then she talks to her grandmother about it. And her grandmother is very you know, you can tell that she's living throughout the season. She's living in a complete delusion about this pregnancy stuff. And I think Thomas had that in her head as well, because she's saying, okay, if I get pregnant, he's going to marry me right away and we're going to have this perfect family. I don't know where she's so intoxicated during the we had talked about this and you said you wondered, you know, if Thomas had gotten her involved in drugs and maybe or maybe she was already sort of in that scene. But from episode one, she is, I don't think, sober the whole concept. But I wonder the harder drugs that I think she gets in to have something to do with Thomas. Well or I have a hunch I can't say that for sure, you know, but I think she came in as like this really normal kind of 21 year old drunk girl, like, I don't know, at 21, probably most people met me, were like, Oh, this girl's drunk all the time because I don't know you know, going to the party she was going to at 21, I probably will be slurring my words and a little bit of a mess. Yeah, I think the part that's sort of wild as a Yankee to observe, but having unfortunately spent my childhood in Florida understand a little bit, is her desire to just instantly have a child like she's living her life, hooking up with all these guys, you know, partying it up in Charleston, living your best life. And she's trying to get pregnant with this guy who's in his forties. It's just that part of it, I think was important for her. Like she's being told, like, if you have children with like a man of power and wealth, that's going to be security for the rest of your life. Yeah, I mean, it really feels like 1800, but my guess is like, that's the message she was hearing throughout her life. And probably there's a part of her that's like the only way I'm going to get somebody to really commit to me in that way is to get pregnant and have their child like. And I get these maybe less conscious and more sort of unconscious messaging of like, this is my way to a sense of security. I really, wonder so much about her family dynamics. Like her relationship with her father. I read some article that she currently lives with her father and they have like this very contemptuous relationship where he, wants her to, get her life together and she just, like, can't. So there is a scene with her dad and in season one. And it's there's a lot to unpack. So at some point she finds out she's not pregnant and then her and Thomas just is like, you handled it all with such grace that I think I'm going to date you now And she wants him to meet her family. So they go over and Thomas is, you know, Oh, we should go over early so we can have drinks beforehand. And then it and Kathryn's like, Oh, my family doesn't drink. We don't drink at all. And he's like, What a Southern family? And you don't drink? And she's like, Yeah, my grandfather was murdered by Al Capone's men because of prohibition. So we don't drink in our though interesting history but there so they go to Monk's Corner, which is the plantation her family lives on and they show up sans drinks. And the dad gives a history lesson about the house being like built before the Civil War and, you know, all that which we'll get into later. But there's been some editing on Bravo, part of some episodes involving her family's plantation. But they the dad's like, I want to talk to you aside to Thomas pulls them aside and they sort of had this man to man talk. And the dad is a little weird. He basically says that Catherine is his best friend, that the closest person to him, that they have a closer relationship than father daughter because they're best friends and that she doesn't he's not surprised. She's with an older man because of how you know why she is and then, you know, he kind of gives his approval of their relationship. So, yeah, I don't know the whole best friend thing. There's something very like concerning about those types of boundaries, both parents, right? Like if you are your child's best friend, that's really confusing to kids. MM. And the fact that her family is so kind of supportive and there's no like moment, I was like, Oh, he's so much older or, Oh, he has this like past like or like there's no and maybe there was, but we're not seeing any evidence that there was sort of this pause of like, are you sure this is an okay relationship, Catherine? Especially if she's so why is isn't she someone they could have that conversation with? Well, and she's like actively telling them about I mean, she's telling her grandmother about unprotected sex with Damas and that she wants to get pregnant with him. And according to the timeline, at least that we're seeing on screen that they keep referencing, they've only been dating three weeks and dating loosely because she was also hooking up with Shep and Whitney during that period. So it's wild to me that her family wouldn't be like maybe take a pause and get on some birth control and, you know, wait to get married or. Yeah, it seems like she's I mean, Whitney has alluded to that Catherine was trying to get pregnant and trap Thomas and she can only like speaks to not so much like why are they doing that, but just how normal this is and that family. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense of like why she is moving in these ways because it seems like maybe that's part of how her family has moved. Oh, yes. I don't know. the best friend thing was a red flag to me. I was like, this is something is giving me the creeps. And then, yeah, she goes basically from her parents house to Thomas. Now, she never lives an independent life. They also live sort of out in the country and she wants to be in Charleston. This becomes a thing later in the show. But, um, so part of her stay with Thomas is also being able to be in town again. Everything sounds like it's 1801 that we're discussing. Right. But it's wild how much the South hasn't changed at all. She's like, Let me shack up with this powerful Ravenel to live in town so I can hobnob with. It's insane. I think that is her whole thing. She is stuck in the past. She's stuck between the past and the present she's doing, between what her family wants and what she feels like. I'm hearing her go to school for feminism, probably learn about, like, women and bodies and equality. And she's, like, torn between these two worlds of, like, wanting to party, wanting to have fun, wanting to hook up with guys and wanting to fill this role of like, whatever the good daughter to her best friend date is. And so it's interesting. Like, she clearly is kind of torn between the two. So yeah, her family seems really religious, which is it just seems like she's just rebelling like there's a lot of rebelling happening. And then at the end of the season, Thomas breaks up with her, and then we cut to nine months later, they have a baby together, which is wild. But wait, is that the scene where she's on the dock with, like, the fur jacket saying, like, Tom is, you're not going to leave me? Oh, no. That season to which we definitely need to get into. But season one is Tom is like crying, like this is never going to work out. He also has this amazing speech at his dinner party about The Glass Menagerie. My like, well, that was his whole thing is that he, you know, he has these speeches. He's very well read. He's very educated. Yeah. So he both of them sort of live in this fairytale world. And I think Cameron sort of talks about it at the reunion. They both were sort of like in this fantasy world of trying to have a baby. I mean, they both everyone kind of admits they were trying to have a baby. I mean, and Thomas kind of is like, oh, let me take more accountability in the reunion because I am older. It's like, yeah, you're in your forties. It's shocking that you haven't had a child yet because you free willingly do this. Apparently so. It's like he must have intentionally been trying to get her pregnant and she I mean, no, make it for him. Like, let me get her pregnant. Maybe that will calm her down. Maybe she'll become like the waif that I want her to become because that's like motherhood does that to women. And I have this idea of like how women are. And I think I know. Yeah. And I mean, I think that he you know, I heard once that, you know, women look for a man that they want to marry because they love them. Or, you know, when they fall in love, they want to get married. And men, it's more a timing thing, like I want to get married at this time and whoever their wed they're going to marry. And I always drove me insane and crazy, but it is a little and I feel like with Thomas, he just wanted to get married. He didn't. It could have been anyone. I don't think it was. Because he also tries to get with Danny that season in the beginning of the season, he's trying to date Danny, so he's really just wife hunting and and Catherine, I mean, even when she's proclaiming how much she, like, really cares about him, it comes off so shallow and weird because, you know, you see her with Shep and they kind of have at least some chemistry and flirtation and they're closer in age. And you see her with Thomas and you're like, What does she even see? You never really get. I think that's a hard part, hard things like that. He is older. I think she does like that. He's well read. I think she likes that. He has this famous name. I think she likes that he could give her this sense of security, which I think she saw. She would never get in shape because he was too young. He was still going to be like going out there and like Shep was not going to get her pregnant. Shep was not going to like, yeah, be a father or get married to her, kind of like fulfill those boxes that she was looking to check in order to like please her family Yeah. So she shows up to the reunion and she looks very healthy. She was very thin that first season and she shows up to the reunion. She had just had the baby a month before and honestly, she seems like a different person, probably totally clean at that time because of the pregnancy and because of having the baby and breastfeeding, whatever she was doing and she probably was in her most health. That was probably the last time she was super healthy. Yeah. And I mean, yeah. So then after that first season, you really see the addiction stuff come into play. But so second season we enter that they're living out in another plantation, one of Thomas's plantations, and this where she's like living in the basement. Yes. And he's sort of in town and going back and forth and he's running for Senate. So the whole season, she later said in some People magazine article that when she was pregnant with Kenzie, their first child, that he took her out of state and like hid her away. It was very, again, 19th, like 1800s, like sent her away there. Shame, right? Like they're not married. They're having a child. It's a child out of wedlock. Like but imagine, like what he was doing. I don't understand that part of it. You're questioning something that's like not even part of the question, right? Like he knew what he was doing. Exactly. He knew what he was doing. You got a woman pregnant out of wedlock. So what he did was took her away, took her out of sightseeing, will bring her back when he can present the beautiful family and that he's showing up with the beautiful family. But he's not going to, like, show the pregnancy or the mess of all of that. Oh, yeah, that's exactly what happens because they show the first episode is the christening and they have a look how happy we are. You're not going to be you're going to be upset that I impregnated a woman who's not my wife, who's 20 years younger than me, 30 years younger than me, however much younger she is. And you're not going to judge me because look at our beautiful family like. Yes. So they have to replace their godmother for the christening because the godmother hit on Thomas, apparently off camera and they have to replace it with J.D. and J.D. His wife ends up being the God, father and mother, but that definitely begins the start of the jealousy of it all. And and Katherine just but also it's like these women are apparently just throwing themselves at Thomas, which. I mean, happens. It's just hard to believe. But I know that dynamic, right, where he is flirtatious, he is charming and charismatic. And so whether a woman is hitting on him or he's hitting on her or vice like whatever way, like that is triggering an insecurity. And Catherine and I, my guess and what I've seen play out on the show is Thomas would play to that. There was something like male ego that thrived when she would get jealous and when she would like get erratic because she was worried and like wanting affirmations of love from him. And I think that's part of their whole relationship is that it seemed like he thrived on her chaos because for him that there was some like validation in that of one, like this is how much this person loves and wants me and to this is how much power I have over this person. Oh, yeah. And there's definitely a daddy complex in there somewhere that's going back to the best friend. Yeah. And I have a lot of feelings of what's underneath that, I know we're going to leave that up to the listeners right now, but I'm picking up exactly what you're picking up. So this season, Thomas is running for Senate, and Catherine is playing senators wife for a while. And she's trying to host events. and Tom is, on the other hand, is doing his old boys routine with Whitney. And the big drama that season, obviously, is the commercial he films. All those women and almost like, seems like Whitney was trying to setting him up. Yeah, but I feel like it is also setting him up. Not just him, but he knew Catherine would get upset about this and therefore he is kind of like setting up for there to be conflict. between Thomas and Catherine for the show, but that leads to they all go away for the weekend and I Catherine unloads on Whitney in that famous scene where it's like you took him to strip clubs and I was pregnant and. It's a bit misguided. I mean, I have to say, like Catherine, she has drank the Thomas Kool aid because she's lashing out at everyone in that season except well, she's also lashing out at Thomas, but I think some of it is also maybe being mad at herself. But I mean, to be honest, their relationship is just so toxic. A part of it is like you guys are after up the whole time, like on drugs and alcohol because it really feels that way probably. I think like she has this newborn is probably like sleep deprived having like a different relationship with her body, having a different relationship with like who am I now that I'm a mom and that I'm going to be, like, fulfilling this role of, like, senator's wife? Like, who am I? And probably having to confront, like, things that senators wives have to accept, like that their husbands go to strip clubs and do what they want, and yet you have to, like, stay home and be quiet about it. And again, it goes back to I don't know why I'm so attracted to this idea that she went to, like, school for feminism, because I think there's just this part of her that, like, is so conflicted. And like, I want to play this role and like, this role is not who I am. It doesn't feel comfortable for me. It doesn't feel okay for me. I mean, you know, even when you look at sort of these women who latched on to Trump during that whole era, the Hope Hicks, I feel like Hope Hicks is very you know, she was super young and became a communications director, which she was like vastly unqualified for basically. And I think I feel that cap and probably saw all of this and was like, Oh, I can strategically get myself into the wheels of power going back to Lala. Like I can strategically get myself in the wheels of power by marrying this senator. But I think it's like these tropes, these like antiquated roles that they thought they could play by, do it by, by, by doing certain things. And when they actually get into those roles, they don't like them. Yeah. So and I mean, you see that playing out. She's like, Oh, I thought I'd be living in town like again. The town of it all is very important. Do I live in town? Do I not live in downtown? I live out in the country. So she wants to live in town, almost like country wife versus a city wife. Like, those are different roles. The wife gets to go out and be at the parties with a country wife as the homemaker. And she's seen, you know, in her movies taking care of the children. Yeah. So it definitely feels like she's, you know, the country wife with the baby and he's got a steady mistress, most likely. And Whitney Broadway hangs out with her, the mistress. So she's trying to put those pieces together, too. There's there's a new character, Jennifer, who, like, later becomes her friend. But at first, she's, like, convinced to sleeping with Tom. It's like everyone she meets is is sleeping with Thomas, and they have all these blow ups. And then election night is tragic where he loses horribly and then she comes in and sort of like 2.2% of votes and he is so small and then she, you know, according to land and makes it all about her and Thomas is also like, oh, it makes it all about her, but it's like kind of is about her, you know, you sidelined her. She had your baby that she basically has betrayed that this woman is a couple months postpartum. Oh, yeah. And I mean, not only that, though, she she had the baby and did all this so he could have his perfect political. We set that up in the first season. And then for him to disregard all of that, have this, you know, Playboy image when he ran for Senate and loses spectacularly. This is Caitlyn Caitlyn's time to glow. Right. Like I told you, you know, as I'm thinking about, you know, I remember watching this, and I guess I wasn't a mom at the time, so it didn't mean much to me like that. She had just had a baby. But I'm thinking about my experience after just having a baby and how insecure you are with yourself and your relationship because like, you can't have sex right away and like you don't really want to have sex while you're like in those first stages of motherhood. Or at least for me, it was very like it was very hard to like be in touch with my sexuality in my body. And like, I felt very like distance between me and my husband. And so, like, she's, I imagine her like going through all this like postpartum stuff and probably postpartum depression in a really intense way because we know she has a history of being diagnosed with depression based on like court documents and things like that. And, you know, how that leads to even like what depression does to the brain and what postpartum does to the brain and like all that, like accusing women of flirting with with Thomas and this insecurity in her relationship. everyone's kind of looking at her like, you're crazy because you're like coming up with all this stuff, but no one's thinking like, what is this woman actually going through? so it leads to the confrontation in the boat, in her fur jacket. It's like lives in my mind, you know? Ooh, Thomas, I'm not going to let you leave me. It's like, you know, separation of it is really sad. Like, it's really sad is like, I can't be left alone. Like, I've done all of this, and I'm not going to let you leave me. I'm not going to let you give up after I've made you the baby, after I've, like, done all of this, even, like, on TV, like, there's this, like, desperation of, like, I can't be alone. Yeah. And the conversation leading up to that, she's trying to talk about all the issues, essentially they've been dealing with this season, like the Whitney, the Senate campaign and the just disregarding her in every possible way. And he's just like, oh, she's like on repeat with these issues, like, on repeat. And it's like, well, because Thomas, you've not addressed even one. You've given her nothing, you've given her up anything, nothing more, things to question or to worry about or to feel insecure about. And there's never a moment where she tries to help her feel safe. Oh, yeah. We're all, like, kind of. And I'm. I'm guilty of this, too, of, like, kind of, like, judging her for not feeling it, right? Like, there was this time where, like, I. I could see myself being in, like, judgment of her chaos and her unhinged behavior, and yet, like, she is, he's playing such a big role in it. Yeah. And I mean, it's almost like going back to Lala and Rand. I think a part of it is because as an audience you're like, Well, girl, you signed up for this. You knew who he was. And I think, you know, even just like I don't know why there's something about Catherine that feels more innocent and that was way more taken advantage of than like a lala. If there was so much more that she was owning her choices, she knew what she was doing. She And with Catherine, it feels like it wasn't so much a choice. the difference is like la la la came in as an agent of, you know, I'm going to move to L.A. and I'm going to become an actress any way I can. And it feels like Catherine is doing this because it's expected of her. so at the reunion, She's not pregnant yet, and her and Thomas are broken up and they start lobbing accusations at each other. And this is when Andy was fully like in his chaos mode, because they start she starts saying, Oh, you slept with a lesbian. And Andy's like, I want to know more about this lesbian. And so he's playing this is more of a gossip queen than he has in recent years. But and then he's like, you've destroyed every hotel room we've ever stayed in. And that lobbing back and forth. I just got a very clear sentence that I was like, This is a drug fueled like relationship. Like they do drugs, they have probably sex with multiple partners and that's sort of their thing. She's going through all this postpartum. But based on, like, dynamics, it feels very possible that he played this role in sort of fostering and using drugs as a way to cope Yeah. And so the next season she's pregnant with Saint. They're not together, And he she still sort of living in this weird delusion that he's going to give her some money so she wants a house in town again going back to town. And just like every day that I can imagine is that her getting in like a carriage, like little women like going to Dowd would you need thousand down bigger? It's sort of like what Charleston looks like right? Like I when I think about Charleston, I think about the cobblestone streets. Yeah. Like, oh, my gosh. As I was thinking, like, should we tell our story about going to the plantation at some point? So in go. So Season three is actually the first episode Bravo deleted after 2020. George Floyd protests. I think Talk of Shame, who's a great influencer on Instagram, called this out originally, but there is a scene in that first episode of the season where they're at Monk's Corner in her plantation, and she's showing she's telling everyone about the drama. Thomas And she's showing around the plantation. She's like, Oh, here is a like a slave graveyard. And I don't remember all the details because it's been deleted. You can't even watch it anymore. So coming into the season, you're missing a lot of context. But I know it was just very cavalier. And there's something very interesting about her family having this wealth built on the backs of slaves. And I think something that Southern charm struggles with and why Bravo made the smart decision to delete some of this stuff. And something I think we've experienced going to Charleston is, you know, they'll name slavery, but they don't name slavery, you know, and that's something I struggle with is, you know, what does it mean that her family has this wealth and it's brought to them by essentially kidnaping, people from Africa, putting them on a ship naked and in chains for months on end, selling them, forcing them into labor. And then generations of people being in forced labor and having children all need to have their children be in forced labor. And the trauma of that that's caused by everyone, really, because caste systems affect everyone in that society. And this good old boy and her being from a prominent family, him being. A prominent family is still that same mindset of, you know, we are entitled to this wealth and it doesn't matter that they, you know, brutalize people in order to get it. And what that does to your psyche, that that is normalized. kind of speaks to this conflict of worlds that she's living in where I think she probably doesn't totally identify with that part of her family and wants to like shut it down within herself of like, no, I'm not responsible for slavery and racism. I'm, you know, this is just my family and this part of her that like doesn't that that is likely detached from that, but it's still like responsible. And that conflict, like, becomes so intolerable for her to sit with. Yeah. And I think that's especially in these early seasons where they're going to these plantations and there's these beautiful homes and, you know, there's sort of and there's no African-American or black people on the show, you know, and it feels like glorifying, you know, So this old south is a little bit, you know, held on a pedestal and not properly weighted against what the reality of that South was built on. And I think that's why people want to see more of from Southern charm, which I think they're they've attempted to do sort of in these like more recent seasons, but it a really accurate read, at least in my experience of going to Charleston, of like what it's like to be there. There isn't this acknowledgment of the racial divide that exists in that town. And there is. Oh yeah. When we went to so we went to this plantation And you know, in my thinking, I'm like, oh, they, they, it's a history now. They've incorporated, you know, the history of slavery into these historical doors, which they have. I mean, in a sense, in the first part of the tour, we sort of like went around the grounds. I don't know how much you remember of all of this. And they were showing like the weeds and where, you know, the slaves had to like toe the land and and the guys explaining how treacherous it was. And the whole time in my head, I'm thinking, okay, like as a Yankee, you go to these, you know, places where the pilgrims built, you know, whatever, and you're like, Oh, wow, they really came over here and had to struggle. But when he's explaining all this, I'm like, Well, they had no choice. They had no choice but to do what you're saying. Like, there was no choice. There was no this is not them building a life for themselves. This is forced labor. And, you know, it's said so casually and then wrote, they weren't building a life. They were enslaved and they weren't get it at stowing away money in order to one day own their own property No, they were they were in chains, like when when they were saying, oh, they had to go in, like clean out this swamp land. And there was alligators. It was like, well, they either get eaten by an alligator or murdered by their, you know, slave owner. They had no choice. And I feel like sometimes that's very minimized. And then we went to the House tour and they start talking about how the owner of the house had all this wealth. And when the Civil War happened, he put all his money into Confederate bonds and essentially lost everything. And we're in a crowd of, I would say, 100% white people. And the reaction was, oh, like, oh, he lost all his money. And I just remember being in such shock that they were upset about this rich person losing his money in Confederate bonds during the Civil War without any recognition of what any of that meant. And actually, Thomas, in season one, I guess, and I didn't see this scene fully, but his dad made some joke about tipping someone in Lincoln's and Andy asked about it and he's like, You know, we have this thing in the South. It's not that we disagree with Lincoln or we agree with slavery. But, you know, because of what they did burning the South, which most Southerners will be like, okay, well, they burn the South. That's their you know, and we don't we don't we have this thing where we, you know, talk shit about Lincoln, I guess, and, you know, Andy sort of moves on from it, but it's like it did them. You know, there's still so much that are never being addressed. Exactly. And like, you know, but it's like would be inauthentic for them to address them because they don't. Right. Like because yeah. Truly what it is still like in a lot of parts of of that world of that culture. Yeah. especially Bravo having to reevaluate these episodes and maybe take them down. I hope that Southern Charm did provide a light to America of what it's like to live in these old southern towns. Because it is you know, I speak to Yankees all the time and, you know, there's a different sort of like, you know, racism and segregation that sort of happens in the north where, you know, they think they're very progressive, but they're not. And in the South, it's just so, you know, obvious. It's like they're almost they're not pretending. Yeah. Where I feel like at least in New York, what I feel like is there's all this show of, like, anti-racism and like where equal and equal opportunity and yet, like where I live in Brooklyn, the lines are so clear of like where gentrification happens and what is the spaces for lower income people of color and like. Hmm. there's one scene that I've always been fascinated by that I do want to talk about, but you know, like when you talk about production and what you do when you work with someone with addiction, it's sort of the same thing is what I'm saying about Southern charm. You kind of have to show just show it for what it is. Which one of the scenes I know that was like a huge struggle, I think, or, you know, was talked about a lot was in that season when she's pregnant with see you know, Tommy's sort of coaxed her into going to this polo match with Kensi and she shows up and JD and Elizabeth, they're there and she knows JD and Elizabeth had been talking badly about her, but also she just keeps reiterating, you told me this was a family day. You told me this is a family day and everyone's sort of drinking. And now this polo match and there's no children around. And the nannies, they're waiting to, like, help with Kensi. She's pregnant. She's struggling. Jennifer goes with her because now they're close friends and she's sort of spiraling out, and she ends up staying for, like, 10 minutes and then spirals out like leaves. But I remember when I initially saw the scene, you know, everyone was telling me, oh, she's really off the rails, you know, in the scene. And I was like, I mean, the the little girls trying to run around in this polo field where there was horses. And so she's got, like, pregnancy hormones. Yeah. And I'm like, seeing it from an outsider. I'm like, this is not a family day. This is not, you know, this is not what and I can kind of understand what she's saying. I mean, but also she's on high alert. Paranoia because J.D. and Elizabeth are there. Then she makes a big deal of the drinking, but not really for any specific reason. And Elizabeth actually goes after is like, is it because of the drinking? We'll throw out all the alcohol away. Like, just stay. Just stay. But it's it's like everything combined. Like, there's no area for the girl to play. It's not. And this is something Thomas does a lot. Like when he actually gets custody of the kids. He puts them in the back house because he doesn't want them to mess up the main house. It's like he wants his perfect family, but he doesn't actually want to raise children or be around children. Um, but, yeah, and I think he said in court documents that he, you know, alleges that she was using during her pregnancies or specifically would say, I'm not sure. And there are times during that season when she's very erratic. And then season three is when she actually goes to rehab. And that's the first time we hear definitively, you know, what she's using. And I actually had to pause it a couple of times. I read the article because in later seasons they're always saying she was addicted to marijuana. She has a cannabis problem, which always was a little strange to me. But what actually was alleged during this period was that she was testing positive for cocaine, marijuana and opioids and that she may have had a psychiatric disorder, maybe from using Adderall or something. And I know Craig has talked about that. He struggled with Adderall addiction. I actually praise Craig for really talking about this because I think, Adderall has become sort of like a party drug, which is wild to me. But it does change fundamentally the chemistry of your brain and can be very addictive, which is a similar stimulant to cocaine. So it's going to have kind of similar. Qualities to that kind of high of like it's going to give you a lot of energy, it's going to make you really active. And when combined with other things like alcohol or right. Like other drugs, like it's it makes you be able to party longer. It makes you be able to stay up longer, makes you be able to function more when on other things. But I mean, when you talk about these people who are drinking and partying till 4 a.m., you know, put together is there are other things are when you're using illicit drugs, you're not going to like alcohol. It's socially acceptable. It's not really legal. Even marijuana sort of like at this point, it's decriminalized. So talking about it, it's not such a crime, but using cocaine is a crime. Well, and Adderall, I think, is very accepted. And, you know, I mean, so many people are, you know, diagnosed and need to use it and that's understandable. But I think it is it is a huge there's at least in New York, I know, like working out of clinics and stuff, there's a lot more. They're locking down these sort of benzos and different, more addictive medications because they're seeing trends of people becoming addicted And Craig talks about how it changed his life when he quit and it was really hard for him. And you see his change so drastically, like he was pretty together in that first season. If we did an episode on Craig, I think we could pinpoint exactly when he got sober, is what I'm saying. And I think some of this, you know, can cause agitation, paranoia, psychosis. I mean, you're seeing some of this demonstrated with some and again, happening this on top of like postpartum. Yeah. And pregnancy hormones, like the way those hormones affect your body on top of, like, drug use like. That's a cocktail of of unhinged. Right? Like that's going to make someone become unhinged and not connected to the shared reality. Yeah. And so with the production end of things, I've worked on a few shows with addiction and it's it's taxing as a producer because addiction is a disease. And but this is not only addiction. This is like a bunch of mental health stuff. And there's this piece of like power and control they must see being played out between Catherine and Dennis that they're like facilitators to to an extent. Well, I mean, this is where I feel like at the end of the day, we are I mean, you know, everyone say reality TV is set up and all that, and there's plenty of argument to be made. But we are documentarians like we show up with a camera and we film, you know, did anyone make Catherine Chase after him and say, Don't leave me? That was a really real moment. Like, I don't I and the dynamic it's tough for me because rewatching this I don't I don't know how much being on the show played into whatever Catherine was trying to do that first season, but it also felt like it played a role. Like, I just it's hard to believe. It's hard to say it did it. Not to say that, like she wouldn't have had her own chaotic experience without it. It definitely played a role in. Well, that one, the dynamic between her and Thomas, because there's just no way it would have been the same without a camera, without being there. It gave there was something about the show that felt like it gave Thomas more power and the way the audience were kind of colluding with Thomas and like the Catherine's crazy narratives. More power in that. Well, I guess for devil's advocate, though, on that is, you know, when they were filming, I mean, a lot of this stuff that she did as far as, you know, testing positive and getting the kids taken away all happened off camera. A lot a lot of the chaotic stuff that caused her to have bigger problems. How an off camera filming is responsible for her behavior or for the things that have happened to her. But where is there a responsibility in production to be like, Oh, this person is going through a crazy downfall? Where do we pull back? Where do we stop? Where do we say like, we don't want to be implicated in this anymore because it doesn't feel like this is a healthy environment for anyone? Yeah, I think an interesting question to me and like I don't know that they are like I'm coming from a very different world of like mental health where like we are going to be like, hey, like this doesn't feel safe. Like let's, let's make a safety plan. Let's make sure you're in an environment like one thing and we talked about this a little bit with Lala's like one thing in recovery is really about people, places, things. And if you are an addict and you're continuing to go back to the people and places and the things that were part of your life, when you are an addict, you are going to have a hard time sustaining your sobriety and your recovery. And so she's coming back to the show, and the show is part of it whether, you know, again, not to say that they're responsible for it, but it's part of it. It's a trigger. I mean, you know, on these shows, there are resources in there, you know, but also as a documentarian, that line is difficult to cross because then you're part of it. You're part of the story, and you can't be part of the story. I don't know, you don't really watch Below Deck, but there was this moment in the below deck sailing yacht where one of the Yachties was about to sexually assault one of the others and production intervened. So yeah, actually, that's the most powerful moment of reality TV I've ever seen. And, you know, other people intervened as well. But a big thing was production was like, no, no, no, no, no, we're not going to let them. We're not going to just film this. Yeah, and that's really for documentarian. You might just be like, well, I don't know. You know, like you could say, like, but there is a point where you say, like, we're kind of we're becoming a part of on safety now by like by even just documenting this. Yeah. So that's why I say there are guardrails and I want to shout out Michael Cimino, who was that producer who interrupted that situation? He's a friend of mine. He's a phenomenal producer and I personally love him. So there are guardrails and I think they're good people, you know, like I wouldn't sit and watch something that was, you know, I've been in those situations, you know. I mean, filmed Teen Mom for many years that involves children. So there's even more guardrails. So I think there's a there's a fine line. We are only there when it's when we're filming, you know, and especially these shows like Southern Charm, where they're only shooting for like two months, it's a very short window. It is responsible for Katherine's addiction. Oh, of course. There a like, okay, like this person has been unhinged, like four seasons now. Maybe we need to, like, not like, maybe with I guess I wonder if there is a place to be like, okay, maybe it's interesting TV, but like, this is clearly not good for her and we don't want to be implicated in that. I think they did that last season. I mean, last season was like a lot of that. Was that because of addiction? I guess From what I know, the decision was made based on the way that she behaved. And I would say that behavior was now knowing that she just got arrested for, I think, a second DUI. There's been some other incidents. There was the incident at the school a couple of months ago where she may have like unclear whether she hit somebody. Yeah. So the problem is, is that you always want to give someone a chance to redeem themselves. I mean, and she did. That's so interesting, too. She did. And we didn't even talk about her like redemption or the Ashley of it all. I know she when she's sober, she's a very strong. Going back to what you were saying of like her having more agency in this. She's a very strong personality. I think that wisdom and the stuff they were even talking about for a season, if they're very intelligent, that that one season where she kind of like where she had her redemption the Ashley season and she was clearly sober that season and a lot of it was about her maintaining her sobriety. And and you saw Thomas with another chaotic woman. So whose pattern is this? You know. But yeah, I mean, and filming gives a level of accountability that sometimes addicts need. You have to show up, you have to film, and you have to see yourself like, oh, my God, so much of therapy is about like just trying to get some insight and just trying to get some perspective on yourself. And one thing that I think can really happen in these shows is people can watch themselves back and be like, oh, that's like something that like you see those emotional moments where you're not going to have the same sort of recorded memory of how you behaved. You're going to have sort of just the emotional memory of it, and to be able to see it like even that like scene of her on the on the docks, in her fur coat, like you must have been a part of her that I would hope that she walks that back and was like, Oh, wow. Like, I'm not okay. Yeah. But she was really good for a couple of seasons, you know, sober. And you could tell that she was getting her life together and she even got more custody of the kids because Thomas got accused of sexual assault of that nanny that was in the polo match scene. So there's been just such a roller coaster ride with both of them. But is the show good for her? it feels like she came on the show to be this like bait for men. And that felt like, I don't know, that that's something that could play out now. And I we were talking before about like when was the MeToo movement? Like, could this show have started before like after like post to me to I don't I don't think so because I think even for me as a watcher, like I'll look back at those episodes and MeToo made me think about relationships different and power dynamics and relationships differently and a little bit more of like a critical lens. Like what created this tunnel that Catherine went down. And again, she probably would have went down something similar, whether the show existed or not. And like the fame, like the attention, the criticism from the Worlds has to play a role in how severe things are. Yeah, I mean, there's two different things. There's filming the show and the impact of the show, which your producers have. No, you know, producers can make an amazing show and watch it. So, I mean, they can't, you know, control the impact of what happens. But also, it's it's tough with addiction because at the end of the day, the only person who can change this is Catherine. I mean, Catherine needs to and I mean, that's why I say let's go to what's happening now. She's been off the show for over a year. I think it's been maybe a once close to two years. And, you know, she seems to be, you know, deep in her addiction right now. I mean, that I don't know if you saw the DUI tape I mean, screaming about her kids. in her screaming at our dog and everything, And I was shocked by kind of the way she was acting. But also I was like, oh, she's she's wasted. And she's a real alcoholic, probably among other things. but addiction is part of your life forever. It is. And I mean, you're in recovery. You are still. The recovery is forever. Yeah. And I think it's very normal. And I want to, like, normalize that. Like, relapse is a very normal part of recovery as well. I think we have these stories of karl and lolo and I think karl's very much early on in his recovery. But Lala's a little further on and we have these sort of like success stories or we have like someone like James who like he he definitely has an alcohol issue, but it's not so it's not quite as severe as someone like Catherine where it's like she is someone who is more likely to have relapse because part of her addiction seems to be fostered by the chaos of her life, by depression, by different other things going on and. Again. Like there's something about like what the show did to her and Thomas's relationship and create this volatility between them that like, sure, it could have existed without it, but I wonder how different it would have been if they, you know, if they didn't have this whole, like, machine that was kind of behind them created. See, that's where I find it interesting because I think they were probably way more chaotic off camera. I think they were destroying hotel rooms and just having crazy sex. That's probably true. But again, I think there's it's not about like what you see and it's not about like it, again, is about the implications of it. It's about the implications of fame, of having this world see and be on sides. Like even though I was hanging out with someone last night, again with the like the Lindsay and Karl of it all, like saying like whose team are you on? And I was like, Well, I'm not on a team. Like, what if someone had a gun to your head and you had to choose like one team to be on? And I was like, well, that seems first of all, it seems extreme a little bit. So that's why it's like that. But like, who is that serving to pick it even that way. But that's like the society we live in. And I feel like when we have volatile relationship situations that come out of these shows, it's like it is creating something. And now with the courts involved and like I don't have a lot of like feelings that are coming up in me of like what happens when there's like children and court and drugs and relationships. And now we have like a camera pointed out at all. And yes, like, I don't think the cameras, like, are responsible for their volatility, but there are implications of like having this dialog out there about them and their relationship reality shows are fascinating because they're in the zeitgeist, they're pop culture. Everyone wants to talk about them, everyone wants to write about them, but it is their real lives. And where is that boundary of like what you cover, what you don't cover? I think they made a very smart choice to no longer film with her, whether she was relapsing or not relapsing. I think it was, you know, choice for them. It was a smart choice for us as viewers. Yeah, what we're seeing is she is more likely to be able to find a sense of sobriety or recovery outside of the show. Yeah, I think there is an element of nurse, there's a huge element of narcissism with addiction. And I saw that so clearly in that police video with Catherine. And so I wonder a program where she would really need to take accountability and be of service, I think, and work that program and detangle the chaos of her life, which, I mean, the last few seasons, even when she was doing well, she was constantly having these beautiful apartments. And then the next season, the apartment would be gone and she would have these beautiful things and then nothing and be back at Monk's Corner. She would have her kids and then relapse and lose them again. And I think she needs like a steady home. And it's it's ironic that she came to Thomas for stability and now ten years out is more chaotic than ever because of Thomas. I mean, so yeah, I don't think she should be back on reality TV for sure. I think we're both in agreement. Yes. I don't know that neither of us are sure what's good for her anymore. I don't think it's good for the art. It's good for the show and yeah, good for the audience. I think in the future we really wish that, you know, she is able to work things out and be able to be a presence in her children's lives. Yeah, I would love Karl to reach out to her. I mean, he wants to be this sober. Coach, start with Katherine, please. Garland. La la. Okay. My head, Carl. All our dating. And then they become sober coaches for Bravo celebrity. Okay. And then maybe there's a show about. This is how the producer mind works. Yeah, I think it's interesting because I like someone like La La who shows sobriety in a way that felt very healthy and controlled. And where, like, Carl chose sobriety, I think, in a response to, like, trauma and grief of his brother passing away It's it's like. Arthur and story's so much darker than theirs. I know. I'm like, what is going to be her rock bottom? you know, this is the face of addiction. I mean, most people don't. You know, when Carl's brother died, I mean, he could have easily gone the other direction when him and Lindsey broke up, he could have easily gone the other direction. And that's another case where I'm like, you know, Carl has a lot of accountability. He's been on TV talking about being sober. I think that does force, you know, and even Lindsey sort of calling him out for using weed was kind of like, see, the world is going to know. And so there is a level of accountability, I guess, when it comes to being on a show, because I think the realistic thing with addicts is you hit a bottom and there's ten more feet of bottom that you can fall. And unfortunately, Kathryn is fitting into that narrative right now, I think a lot of people have a hard time holding space and empathy for Katherine because I think we all have some internalized misogyny within us and some internalized like patriarchy within us that makes us like look at her and see sort of like something icky Yeah. And I mean, a lot of women do choose to be an agent of the patriarchy in power. You know, la la with the casting couch. We talked about this. I mean, you. I think one of the fascinating parts of Handmaid's Tale is Serena, because, you know, she's very powerful and she hitched her wagon to the powerful men in order to have that power. But then she had to play a role. And I almost look at Katherine and I'm like, she's trying to hitch her wagon to these powerful men. She's almost like a Serena in a different context. But yeah. And then you wonder like where addiction fits into the conflict that she has around, like not being able to play that role and still wanting to and then just feeling so uncomfortable and out of control. Well that was a deep episode. So maybe next episode we have to go. More fun leave comments and how we can have more fun. But obviously feminism is going to come into whatever they want me to a man. Like maybe that's our problem. We're doing all women. Give us some some ideas we want to hear. Like you guys want to hear us blather on about one very loosey goosey. I feel like we've had more structure. This is felt like very all over the place, but we're still figuring it all out and leave your comments. Subscribe like all the things. Love you guys. Probably the next time. My baby.