Episode 6: Teresa and Joe Gorga from Real Housewives of New Jersey

On this episode of Unhinged and on Camera, reality TV producer Jenny and therapist Sam tackle a major family breakdown with Teresa and Joe Gorga from Bravo's Real Housewives of New Jersey. We delve into triangulation, family therapy approaches, multigenerational patterns, and the impact of reality TV on their issues. With the future of Real Housewives of New Jersey in question, now is the perfect time to analyze the relationship that's been at the show's core for years. Fans on both sides have strong opinions, and we want to hear from you! Drop us a line and share your thoughts!

Disclaimer:
Welcome to "Unhinged and on Camera" podcast. We want to make it clear that any opinions expressed on this platform are solely for entertainment purposes and should not be construed as professional advice.

The views and opinions shared on this podcast do not constitute medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Additionally, "Unhinged and on Camera" is an independent production and is not affiliated with the hosts' past or present employers. Any discussions or references to employers are purely coincidental and not representative of their views or policies.

We urge our listeners not to make any decisions or take any actions based solely on the content of this podcast or associated social media platforms. Any interaction with the hosts via email or social media does not establish a therapeutic relationship, and we are unable to provide any therapeutic advice, treatment, or feedback.

Thank you for tuning in, and remember to always consult with qualified professionals for any medical or therapeutic concerns.

Transcript

Hey, everyone, welcome to Unhedged and on camera. Jenny, the resident reality TV producer. I'm Samantha. I'm here, too, as a therapist. But I guess today I'm going to put on my family therapy hat what we're getting into families today. we are taking on Real Housewives of New Jersey, which is currently airing. And we're going to break down Teresa and Joe Gorga and get into the triangle of it. Like Teresa, Melissa and Joe. We've got our first triangle of the day. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of triangulation in this, which I'm really excited for Sam to break down and explain. So Teresa joins the show, season one. She's an O.G. and Teresa is older sister. To Joe Gorga, who joined the show with his wife Melissa in season three. Same season, their cousin Kathy comes on with her husband. And we also see Kathy's sister Rosie at certain points. But it becomes early seasons are sort of Caroline and her sister Dina. So it's a lot about Caroline's family. And then season three, it really pivots to being a lot about Teresa's family. And still to this day, Teresa and Melissa are both housewives. That family drama and trauma has been what has carried many a season of Real Housewives of New Jersey. And I think why it's interesting to reflect on this relationship now is it's really coming to a head of like they're now in this emotional cut off and is this interesting TV and we'll get more into that. But I think that's sort of what drew us to wanting to explore these dynamics is like I think we're seeing from the Bravo people that they're sort of losing steam with following the same conflict over and over and over again between these three people. And with an emotional cut off, there is nothing to even follow. Yeah, and I mean, is this even I think there's the question of reality TV and then the question of is this healthy for them? And I think the audience and Andy, especially after the last reunion, was like, yeah, you need a cut off. This is becoming tiresome to watch, but tiresome living for all of you. And then producers really made the bold decision this season to just, you know, I think at the end of last Reunion, they both came in guns blazing. Either Melissa is going to be off or Teresa is going to be off the show. And the producers were like, No, you guys don't get to make these decisions. You're both going to be on the show. If you don't want to interact, that's your choice and see how the season plays out. And, you know, we're still watching it, but they've already announced there's not going to be a reunion, which has led to most people assuming, rightly assuming that there's going to be a huge retool of the cast. And I think and he's even come out and said there can't be another season of Melissa and Teresa both on the show, especially with this emotional cut off happening, which is interesting for the future of New Jersey. I'd be excited to see what they do with that. But one of the biggest things when they joined the show was that Melissa and Teresa were sort of in a battle of sister, in laws, of wills, of competition. And if we pause and go back even further, I know we said we wouldn't really talk about the first seasons, but it goes back. Even before Melissa joined, there was this interaction between Teresa and Danielle Staub, where Danielle starts to kind of bring up Teresa's issues with her brother and how she didn't, like, go to the hospital for that when her nephew was born or something like that. She tried to bring up like cracks in Teresa's family, and Teresa automatically, like, shuts it out. And she's like, You're not going to talk about my family. We're not going to talk about my family. And there is like this, like beautiful protective place she wants to be in it, like protecting her family system and then shoot to the next season. We have them join and like all of this is shown and comes to a head and like doesn't the season start with the. Christening. Yeah. So, yeah, let's get into all of that. I think referencing which I totally forgot that even happened, that reunion with Danielle Stab. Teresa shoves Andy in the mix of, you know, trying to go after Danielle, which was probably a first that did that Andy was ever like physically attacked on a reunion. But anyways, so yeah, the original sin that Teresa references with Melissa, I mean, I think they had typical, sister in law issue as jealousy. And we're going to get into all of that. And I think their sister in law issues and the family issues are heightened by like these different like cultural things around being like you know, Teresa and Joe are Italian immigrants and Melissa is an American Italian. And I think there's big differences in how those family systems and expectations are presented. But go ahead. Yeah, and I think we need to get into all that. So. Basically the original sin that Teresa holds over Melissa and Joe up until last season reunion event is that they join the show, I guess essentially without her permission. But how it how it plays out is they're continuously fighting about what is the story behind it. You know, how did they end up on the show in the first place? It also happens at Ultimate Girls Trap, where it's disguised. And basically Melissa's version of the story. As producers reached out to us, we did a casting tape or what have you, and we joined the show. And Teresa's version is that they, like, pursued a casting. What's crazy making to me is I don't know why any of it matters at all. I have a theory that I really want to present, but before that I want to say that I feel that Teresa is legitimate and fair to just say This was my show. I didn't want to be fighting with my family on a reality show. I wanted to protect it. I protected it. That that that in that reunion, I protected it. And now you are risking exposing it. And also just it was my show. You should have come to me and asked for permission. I think in the dancing around how it all went down, I find it interesting that Teresa doesn't just feel fair to say you shouldn't have done this. This was inappropriate. It's just like this was my thing, and it really hurt me that you guys came in and wanted to like, you didn't ask me if it was okay for you to come and join my thing. But again, it kind of goes back to Italian culture, where I think there is this expectation that if you have business and can make money, that you share that with your family. And so I do think there's some of that here around like, what are you talking about? We have as much right to this as you do, and how dare you question that? And in some ways, I mean, Melissa and Joe are right. I mean, it's not Teresa show. She's not an executive producer. She didn't make the show. So it's totally fair that on an intellectual level, yeah, it's totally fair that they just come in because if the producers were interested in them, that's fair for them. But for Teresa, on a family level, she could go and say, I just didn't think this was appropriate. And like, why? She doesn't just do that, I guess. I don't know. But well, it's too much like breaking the fourth wall too, so I don't know if they, like, want to say it in that way. Okay. So yeah, this is my theory in rewatching the beginning of season three and thinking about just the multiple conversations about how this all went down, I do believe casting heard about this drama with Teresa and her family, reached out to them, and I think part of that is definitely true. I also think something that I think is sort of known but not fully known is usually these producers shoot with a lot of different people. They don't even decide who's a housewife, who's a friend of or who's just random cast until the show is put together and post. So sometimes they've shot most of the show before that decisions made. So especially in Potomac, you see this a lot like randoms coming in and then they're, you know, fighting for this place. And, you know, sometimes people get elevated, so you never know. You know, sometimes if you have like a big name, like I remember Kim Fields was on Atlanta. If you have a big name who's a celebrity or something, they're signed on as a housewife before they start shooting. But if you're a nobody and you're just trying to kind of make it on the show, sometimes you have to shoot a lot and you're not told anything about the whole thing again, like last season, under the season before, where it was like, Yeah. Jackie They weren't sure if she was, maybe was even this season. Like they weren't sure if she was going to be full time or a friend of and it was like waiting to see sort of what she brings and then she did bring it off and stayed a friend or something like that. Yeah. And I mean, I think you see that playing out with Jackie this season like she is, you know, trying to earn a full time position again and it comes off thirsty. So, yeah, it adds a level of competition that's both good and bad. So something that came up on Ultimate Girls Trip because all the other housewives are kind of quizzing Teresa and Melissa on how they got on the show. And I actually think Ramona alludes to Teresa. Just say just say. You didn't think that that was cool. What happen. But they again, they get lost in the mishegoss of like how this all happened. And Melissa says something that was telling to me. She says, when they were at the christening, Teresa was saying, I refuse to sign if they're on the show, I refuse to sign a release. I. Refuse to show up. There was some kind of drama. And so my theory is basically that they had reached out to them. There's probably some casting tape that happened and they agreed they're going to film this christening. And the christening was probably the first time or maybe the second scene they ever shot. And, you know, I think there was probably some behind the scenes things going on during the christening of producers talking to Teresa, Teresa being like, I don't want them filming, seeing that the cameras are filming them. I think, you know, even watching that christening scene, there's a whole section where Joe is yelling at his dad and he's like, yeah, I'm his father. And it's very edited. We just kind of keep seeing him saying, You're my father. And I'm like, Oh, gosh, if I could see the raw, that footage would be freakin fascinating. And I think after the christening, producers were like, Well, we got a frickin hit here because that was insane what went down also because Joe sort of Joe Gorga lunges at Joe Shoot Ice, which is Teresa's husband at the time, and they get in this all out brawl, you know, Italian mafia style at this christening But I think. That christening cemented their place on the show. And so I don't think the story of the show right like that moment it became like now this is like Real Housewives of the Gorgas and the dude. Yeah. And you know, there's a scene that played before the christening of Joe Gorga and Melissa and Kathy, and then that scene actually launched into Kathy's package about her life and introducing her as a housewife, a housewife and cast member. And watching that scene, I just was cringing because Joe's face is very acting. It's very like produced like. And I'm like, okay, either he's really playing it up for the camera or this is a pickup scene. And I am wondering if that both, but probably both for sure. But like I am wondering if, yeah, that christening scene happened and then they were like, Oh, we need something to set up all these issues because they started punching each other, which we weren't really expecting. And that scene was shot later to just kind of set it up. in that first season, too, that they were on Teresa's going through bankruptcy, which is the first time you kind of see hints of, you know, what ends up being the the crime of the century that Joe Giudice was like ripping off the IRS and many people. And Teresa went to jail and he went to jail for lots of illegal things. Yeah, lots of financial crimes. But basically she's going through bankruptcy. Joe and Melissa have this huge house and Melissa's just, you know, throwing their wealth around. But anyways, I'd love to get into the family generational stuff around business because I think you made that great point. Like it just seems so weird to me why Teresa wouldn't just say, like, this was inappropriate. But I think it's what you're saying that, you know, she doesn't feel that she has the right to cut them off from, like, a money source. And that's like kind of where this came came from. Right. We start with like, just like the core beliefs of Italian families. And I'm not I'm not an Italian personally. So if anyone wants to correct or give us an edit, I'm happy to hear it. But from like some of the research I've done, it's like they're about like family comes first loyalty or di and you like support your family no matter what and like what someone makes meaning of these words is different to each person. I think there's some also interesting things about Italian families around like hierarchy and gender, which I think we see play out here. I think Joe being the boy of the family, he was always kind of like the golden boy, the son. He was like idealized. He could do no wrong. Where I think for Teresa's the girl, there was all these expectations of like how she was going to live her life, what she was going to do, her expectations to take care of her parents being like this perfect Italian daughter. And I think there was always sort of maybe this like competition between them. You know, I wonder a lot about that because we see it play out in the show where it's like they each feel very competitive for attention on the show. And it makes me think like growing up, was that something they were doing for like known as attention, like they were feeling in competition to get his praise and his love and likely Teresa had to do a lot more work to get that. Another thing they talk about a lot, if we're going into like family history stuff is like how no used to be, no, no, used to be very angry. And there was a lot of anger issues. And we see like Joe's temper comes out often even up into like very recent seasons where we see him begging and yelling on tables like he can just like fly off the handle. And like, Teresa is very similar in that way. Joe Gorga or what brings to the table? Both of them really love, like pie tables, aggressive ways of showing their emotions. I think often, like, they're each coming from a place of hurt, but that's like a deeper thing to get into around their own, like, psychological trauma. But I think that given known as anger, I wonder how trauma bonded they were around, like trying to protect each other from his anger and how growing up that made them really close. And they were here. I think they both said, especially Teresa, that like Joe is my best friend. Like, I loved him. We're so close growing up. And then something happened. I think when Teresa got married and then Joe got married, that must have really impacted that bond and made it hard for them to maintain that trauma bond relationship they had growing up. And yet they're still trying to live within these, like, Italian family values of loyalty. And what does loyalty look like when you kind of have resentment for your. It kind of almost reminds me of like Crystal from Housewives of Beverly Hills. Like when she's, like, telling her brother not to get married like this. Like, how can you maintain a sense of connectedness when your sibling is forming like a different family? And I think with Joe Judy, it wasn't like a choice for Teresa to go marry him. I think he was accepted by the family. I think he was her out of the home. That was her way to, like, start her life and be able to launch herself outside of like the family chaos. And so, yeah, they grew up together. Yeah, they, like, grew up together. Yeah. And Kathy's husband says, I wish I remember the term, but basically there was a term that he's like, this is about like two Italian families who came over to America. They're formed together because they're from either the same area or they live in the same area and they're both from Italy It's like almost arranged, even though it's not quite that. But there is like this arrangement, this agreement, this like mutual benefit that we're getting by being together. Expect family expectations like she is following what is being expected of her. Meanwhile, Joe goes and marries Melissa, who's not from Italy. She she's Italian, but she's like an Italian-American. He doesn't have the same core values and family dynamics. And he gets to kind of just like choose his life. He gets to, like, have these different ways of being that I think Teresa is really resentful for. But also I just get this sense like she so badly wants to connect and be in relationship with him and he is constantly finding reasons to reject it. And as soon as he rejects it, she flies off the handle and does something that I think then makes her look like the problem, even though I think at her core it always started from this like bid to connect with him I mean, I think on the business end of things too, you had read that Joe and Melissa had built this insane house and that they had this whole Reddit thing. So unverified. Yeah, unverified that Joe and Melissa had built this big house and that they had a crazy loan and they were also kind of struggling financially and they really needed the show. I mean, when. Well, what they did was they put their parents home as collateral for this loan for their mansion. That basically was the mansion was bought in order to show their extreme wealth for the show, like the house was for the show, which Teresa just came out on her podcast and talked about how producers first season, she bought a bunch of furniture and cash and she was saying how producers had set that up, which I mean, I think people are making a big deal out of it. Sometimes in casting tapes, you know, people will say, oh, you know, sometimes, you know, I just buy furniture in cash because that's how rich I am. And then producers were like, Oh, that's a good scene. So they'll go to them and say, Oh, can we can we do that? Because you've said you've done that in the past. So it's not as shady as people want to make it out to seem that these producers have forced anyone to do it. Yeah, they could also say like, I want to do that. Say no. Yeah, So I mean, she talks about how producers sort of set that up, but those early seasons, because I think Jersey was one of the earliest housewives. You know, franchises. And they were really I mean, Orange County was really about open the gates to a wealthy cul de sac. So it was really important. I mean, we're also fighting against like some of the stereotypes about Jersey because we kind of like the Jersey Shore. Was that was that before or after? It was around the same time? Yeah, it was around the same time. But it's like this was supposed to be something different. Like these are supposed to be the wealthy people of Jersey, not the people who stay on the shore like that. Yeah. And back then to reality shows were a little bit more formatted, like what box you fit in now it's like, Oh, you could just follow a group of friends and you try to figure out, you know, because audiences are savvy and they know these people are appearing on TV to make money and to promote themselves. So they're a little bit more lenient on the format of it all. But back then it was like, What is this show? And it really had to be about extremely rich Italian families, people living in New Jersey. That's how they sold that show. Well, and I think that's how all the housewives have been sold. It's like, yeah, like I think just now where they sort of start like like feel like Gino was sort of the first to come in and be like, I'm not rich, but I feel like in general it was the whole idea was it was these women have things that like the people who are watching can't have. And that's what was so entertaining about it was you got to like step into the life of these, like, you know, chaotic, rich women. Yeah. So that definitely forms the initial competition between Melissa and Teresa on top of that, Kathy joins the show that first season, too. And you were saying that this pattern of how these parents but there was some story about no no family in Italy where there was a cut off between him or maybe it was. No, I can't remember all the details, but it was like part of the Gorga family. And I don't know if was Kathy or someone else, another part of the family got cut off over like a bad business deal, which was just like a fight over $200. And they, like, never spoke again. And so we're seeing like the beginning of what is kind of their family process and these multigenerational patterns that kind of we're going to see play out throughout the seasons of. Of New Jersey and just the whole like Mehta of New Jersey. Right. Like there is this cut off that is now happened between them over the show. That is what the cut off is. It's they can say it's about this, it's about that. But what it is at its core is about is about the show. Yeah. So no, no, no, no. And no, not Teresa and Joe's parents. it's interesting to me, these Italian families that want to share in the world and that this is very important to immigrant families. I mean, I'm married to an immigrant, so I kind of understand that this is their mentality, bring up your family. you know, to help you in these business deals. But it's also a boundary crossed that complicates a relationship. And and also it's like if you make a business deal with a business partner, you have a contract, you have an agreement. There's no emotional expectations. But with a family member, there are. So they're actually not the best to do business deals with for that reason. But. So one of the things, even in that first episode with the christening that I felt was really interesting is there's so much triangulation where it's three people in conflict and obviously other people play into that. But just to give everyone a little reference of like what triangulation is, it's usually when there's conflict between sort of one relationship and a third party is brought in in order to ease the tension and help communication. But often what happens from triangulation is it results in increased tension and disregulation. And it's rare that, when you bring in that third party, it resolves things that tends to escalate things. But generally like and we can kind of see like where Louie is playing in that role now, where he's trying to come in to this like dynamic between Teresa and Joe and Melissa and triangulate by like, Look, I'm this like calm and peaceful person. I'm going to like, but I'm going to like, foster some sort of a peace deal or some sort of mediation here. And it's not what happens. It just ends up escalating things. And there's just so many different triangles that end up coming up. Sometimes the kids get involved, the grandparents. But the core triangle I think is between Joe, Melissa and Theresa. Yeah. Especially because at some point, Joe, Judy, G.I. Joe, Judy's Joe Juicy Joe, Joe Giudice, Joe, you know, am I going to try to go see Joe? Yeah, well, going to go to see Joe, but he exits at some point. But yeah, the main issue is between Melissa, Teresa and Joe. The formation of that is definitely the original sin of joining the show. And also I want to mention the sprinkle cookies. You know, Melissa brought spring cookies. I am on my son is obsessed with the sprinkles. I mean, I'm with Theresa a sprinkle, but it is true. Wapping really is also kind of dry. What is that? That's what she said, her favorite quote. She's like, I don't like sprinkle cookies. I like pink. I can't even say it. Pink, gold, lycopene. we're testing our attractions and we're it's like a is a light golden color and studded with golden pine nuts. So I guess it's like kind of fancy because there's pine nuts on it, but it is dry as hell. Anyone listening to this. If you want to come for us, come for us. Buy some pig. No leis and some sprinkle cookies and we're happy to do a taste test. Yeah, that would be interesting, but I think Italian cookies are kind of dry in general. Like a cannoli is where it's at. Like, yeah, I think those rainbow cookies are those Italian cookies because those are really good rainbow cookie, the ones that look like red and green and they're like kind of like moist. They're like, I don't know what that stuff is called. I'm not a chef. Should have. Yeah, I was thinking that was a sprinkle cookie because that's also rainbow, isn't it? It just has sprinkles on it. I don't know. But I am not Italian. Sam is not Italian, I'm Irish, she's Jewish. So I'm closer to Italian than you are as a Jew for sure. Oh hundred percent bites if I was okay. A rainbow cookie is an Italian American cookie. So I guess that's why she couldn't bring that. Melissa is metaphorically a rainbow cookie. Also, if I was dating an Italian guy, I would bring a cannoli because that's where it's at when it comes to Italian desserts. I would probably ask, what's your mom's favorite cookie? And then I would like bring that up because I like to assume, wow, you would actually impress Teresa because you would pick up the phone and call her and ask for the favorite cookie. I mean, we're Jews. We are always trying to please. Yeah, I'm that I'm just drunk all the time. So anyways, back to the triangle, back to like what's important. This became us in a food moment, but so basically whatever Melissa did wasn't really good enough for a tree. So cookie or no cookie. And basically, Joe felt that Teresa didn't love his daughter as much as he loved Shia when she was born, because I guess he was very close to Theresa and Gina. they actually go to this therapy session that we really need to talk about at some point. But Theresa insists that like she had just had her third kid when how many Porsche competition. But do you hear where that's rooted in this? Like, I need you to show up exactly how I'm showing up for you. And if you're not, I feel rejected and then I'm going to engage in some sort of warfare against you. Yeah. And I think these expectations of, like, you should know my favorite cookie and bring them in families are extremely toxic but I think it's like core, it's, it's toxic to us as Americans who hold like strong boundaries with our family, but to people who like that is their core value. I sort of get where Theresa is coming from. Like, how does Melissa not know my favorite cookie? Like she's part like ice. This is where Theresa thing. I see you as family. So how do you not know this about me? Because Melissa's complaint is always that Theresa doesn't see her as family. But it's hard for Theresa to see her as family because she's not showing up in the way Theresa understands family. I do think at her core, Theresa is trying. She just is really bad at it. Well, and bad or not bad at it, I think something that comes up for me and comes up in the show a lot is that Joe and Melissa say, okay, you're not being authentic, you're not you're being fake. Like even at the christening, she comes up and say, I just want to say congratulations again. And then they're like, You're so fake. And the core value thing of family, I think there's an issue for me and that or just in general is like, okay, your core value is family, but it's your expectations of that are that you need to do all of these things. And it's not coming from a genuine place of love, like genuine family value. Timmy is like, you love each other, you're able to be safe with each other. have it. We evolve past this. Oh, you know, you need to call this person. You need to do this thing. You need to bring this cookie because you're just testing someone that's not genuine love. That's just a test to prove how you really feel about something. Like you see it as a test because you have like an intellectual standpoint on it, but for them this is like a felt thing, right? Like this is like, look at Teresa. This is to her family is to her core. And I truly believe that like. Every. I bet we could clock how many times she says. I love my family in throughout all of the episodes and seasons, and it would be hundreds and thousands. And I think she truly believes it. What I think the problem is and we can go to like some like family therapy. So Manoogian is one of the bothers, the family therapy. And he's kind of the one who constructed this idea of like family boundaries. And so he talks about the three sort of sets of family boundaries. There's enmeshment, which is when families are like kind of like too close and too involved and don't have any boundaries and are just, like, completely kind of like in each other's lives. And I think that's how sort of Italian families are that are very enmeshed. And then there's the diffused, which are the people who are like completely separate, completely disengaged with each other. And then there's sort of that like middle one, which is like people who have those like flexible, moveable, I can't remember the exact name for it, but it's like more movable boundaries where you can set boundaries and then you can also move them if it needs to be in order to create like healthy relationships. And I think, like in this situation, there are no boundaries. And the only time there are is when there's those, like, totally diffuse boundaries that we're seeing now of like we just can't be in each other's lives completely. they can't even understand how to get to that middle ground because their definition of family is through an emotional lens of like, we are loyal, we support each other, we are like and loyalty and safety for them I think are the same thing. But like loyalty, if you really look at it, can't be all or nothing if it's going to be healthy. And yet it's if you're holding this idea of loyalty, you're holding it in an all or nothing way. Yeah. And I mean, I think this is why Bravo fans are so divided on Melissa and Teresa. because I think people who probably come from a family where they're like, you need to fulfill these expectations. Love is conditional based on how you're showing up in these expectations and the enmeshment piece of it. Whereas there's other people who have, you know, healthy family structures, and they're like the way that Teresa is expecting. You know, I just sort of mind conditional part, I don't think, at least for Teresa. I think she still loves Joe to this day. I'm talking about Melissa, though. I think she expected Melissa to bring the right cookies and she didn't not get her. And Joe Gorka's point is like, this is my wife. I love her. So if I'm saying I love this person, you in turn should open your arms and bring this person in and love them. And I think a lot of families deal with this with in-laws. But again, like to me from an objective standpoint, if my core value is family, my brother loves someone and that's who he wants to dedicate his life to. And it's not just that's the thing, it's family, but it's also like this thing where family and culture get enmeshed. And I think part of the reason why Melissa gets rejected is she is not from the same place as them and she is not from there, sort of like she didn't come into the family the way you're supposed to come in. Like like Teresa. Yeah. Did you see Joe? Like, I think it's it's I think Melissa was on an uphill battle from the beginning. And I think as much as you're right, that I think Theresa needed to be more receptive and open to receiving Melissa as she is. I don't think Melissa ever did any work to try to get into Theresa's good graces. Like, I don't think she ever felt like she needed to do work in order to, like, build a relationship. but at the same point, do you I guess that seems inappropriate to me. Like, you know, I think you become like family. That is that close. I think so. Yeah. But I think it's also there's no genuine friendship from that. There's no, like, genuine relationship. What is this? And this is about her. Her family isn't genuine. if if we're right about our hypothesis that dad may have been somewhat like abusive towards Teresa and Joe and then like her love and care for her dad isn't coming from this place of like he's earned my love and care. It's coming from a place of like, that's what that's that's my responsibility. That's my that's what I do. And so it's not even so much about like for them, they're not thinking about relationship from this place of like what's natural and what's intuitive and what feels good. It's coming from a place of this is how you do things. And I'm not saying right. I'm just saying that it is their perspective. yes, I get the perspective, but I'm saying from a healthy family relationship, Joe Gorga is now marrying Melissa. We see little of her family, but We see her mom is very supportive. We see her sisters are very supportive. We see that they have a genuine bond. And what you see, Joe Gorga and Melissa continuously saying throughout the series is that Teresa's fake. This is fake. This is an authentic. We want a real baublebar. And I actually think Joe Gorga entered Melissa's family, saw that genuine relationship and was like, why don't I have that with my family? And I think Melissa is being blamed and saying, Oh, well, it's because she's not Italian. She doesn't know this. And, you know, actually, I think when Joe Gorga is with Melissa and they have a genuine relationship with her family and a genuine relationship maybe between the two of them, he goes back to his own family and it's like, I don't want to hang out with no, no, I don't like this. I don't I don't like this fake. Congratulations. Are you taking my baby and dancing with them? When you don't come over on a Sunday, you don't call me just to, like, you know, know what's going on in my life. Like, I actually think he is challenging that family structure and it is getting blamed on Melissa Well, of course it's going to get blamed on Melissa because Joe is the golden boy and she's the outsider. She's that in the triangulation. She's the one coming in and she's the one at she's the one who. Yeah, she's the one who changed. Exactly. Exactly. So but to get into what you're saying of like, oh, she didn't come into the family illegitimate way. Look at you see Joe. He did. This is the next triangulation. Juicy Joe. Joe Gorga and no, no. In that christening Joe Gorga lays out that he believes Juicy Joe has been in his father's ear, telling him, Oh, he doesn't spend enough time with you and he doesn't because he's always working. And meanwhile, Juicy Joe is just conning people and that's how he has all his money. So Joe Gorga has all this, you know, resentment, like, okay, yeah, I'm actually working for Mike. That's why I'm not spending time with my dad. But what I felt was really interesting was in a more recent season when Juicy Joe was out of the picture. No, no is still saying to Joe, you don't spend enough time with me. And I think unconsciously Joe Gorga doesn't want to spend time with his dad. I agree. And that's your issue, not family anymore. And I think that is the core issue. And I think the bigger issue there is that nobody actually communicates. It's all sort of like it's all communicated through these expectations. And then again, I kind of want to go back to that idea of like, I think there's all this like we're no, no, he's bidding for like back to those bids for connection. Like, no, no trying to bid for Joe to connect and be with him. And Joe's like. And they're sort of like making a joke out of it. The two of them, like, Oh, I'm so busy like that. And then they sit down at the dinner table in that episode with it's like Easter dinner right after the mom passed away and they're all sitting down and Teresa says something to Joe about it. Like, Oh, like, I really think you need to be there because that's like I thought, I thought that was our shared family belief. And so, yes, I think that Joe is kind of like left the shared family belief but hasn't like let anyone know. And I think he's allowed Melissa to take the brunt of that instead of explaining that like, this is where I'm at now. He's like, kind of let Melissa take all the blame for him not engaging in the family dynamics that have always existed. And I don't even think it's totally Teresa's fault for putting it on Melissa. I think that Joe allows that to happen. And so then Teresa like wants to come in and help no no's bids for Joe's connection, and then everyone attacks Teresa for it. Like nobody says anything to. No, no. They're all like, How could you bring that up here? You triangulation place that that idea and like it lets like there's all this like protecting of no no it's so interesting and how they just are willing to tear each other down instead of like communicate about like what happened in their family and what those experiences are. And if we go deeper, I'd love to talk about that therapy session that's even earlier season. Like right before, isn't it? Right before they go, is it before they go to Lake George or before they go to help? Yeah, it was before Napa, but well, one thing I want to say is like that that first episode in season three, the christening episode, Joe Gorga is like, I'm at a point of I'm done. I want to cut off Teresa. He's saying this in the first episode. They're on this show. But meanwhile, on the other side of it, Teresa is telling Joe Giudice, Joe, look, I need to go say hi to my family. I need to go like I know she doesn't like say it like this, but it feels like this is the vibe of it and know like things are tense. But it's my obligation to go over there and, like, say hi and pay my respects. And meanwhile, she kind of like walks into this conversation between Joe and Melissa where they're basically like trashing her. And she kind of does it with like, grace, like she comes in just like, you know, she does sort of like Teresa, like fake. It is a little fake, but I think it's fake in a way of like protecting the family and not fake in the way that I feel that I get from Joe and Melissa, where it's fake to cover up something within themselves that they don't want to be seen in. Well, that's exactly. Goes back to what you're saying is, like Melissa and Joe feel that they want an authentic relationship and Teresa just wants to fulfill the family obligations, which is up to each of them. But then they each are calling each other out for being fake and then there is a certain amount of faking it. They each do. Yeah. And so then after Juicy Joe and Joe Gorga go at it and fight, Joe Gorga is out of control, wasted, and they're all putting it on Juicy Joe. But Juicy Joe is like barely. He just walks away. But the whole scene is chaos, obviously. And he so gorga pulls no no aside and is just screaming like, I'm your side, I know your side, you're my father. And you know, he's playing into the family dynamics that he doesn't even want to part of. Oh, yeah. The bid for when you're talking bid for attention. I don't I can't imagine a bigger bid for attention then begging your father to see deal like literally being wasted at a christening, being like father, just say you love me more than Juicy Joe, who you drink with every night like it was so desperate. And yeah, he's, like, begging him to, like, kind of say, like, take my side and no, no, sort of like what is happening. And I think, you know, it goes back to something we had talked about was, you know, they seem to reference love like it's a pie and there's only so many pieces of that pie and they're all competing for it. like, why can't No-No have a close relationship with Juicy Joe and him? So, yeah, he's a golden boy. He can write like Joe can't tolerate the idea that, like, his dad may have love for somebody else or may have not even love, but like connection that like, clearly gorga can't have with his own dad, but Juicy Joe can, because probably they feel culturally closer. Yeah. Because Juicy Joe does his cons, drinks with dad and shoots the shed and Gorga is out there working and trying to make a legitimate future. And that's how he sees it. You know, he sees that, you know, why? Why is he closer to Juicy Joe when he's actually doing the hard work, I think is part of the resentment there. but yeah. And then, you know, one of the things that I was thinking of when you keep saying that Teresa's and I do agree Teresa's core value, but in screenwriting this comes up to like what do you believe your core value is and what is actually your need and want? And I think with Teresa, her core value is family. I agree that she thinks that, but it's ironic to watch how much she goes against that. And I think getting into the other cast members, you know, a big source of contention is that Teresa started this rumor that Melissa was a stripper, I guess was the. the stripper gate one and then there is also one where she says that before the Lake George episode where they go to that, like, weird retreat, there's something about Melissa cheating on Joe with her ex-boyfriend or something. There's a lot of Melissa cheating rumors throughout the years which smoke there's fire. It is a little sass. But I mean, also and that Lake George retreat which were going ahead, maybe we should go back to that therapy session. So yes season I think it was for they go to nap. I do want to talk about that. But before you say that, I want to go back to what you were saying about screenwriting. Like what are the core beliefs and what are like they actually behaving in response to? I think that Teresa's behavior is still in connection with her core belief of family values and loyalty. But when she experiences rejection, she acts out in really severe way as well. Do you think? Because based on her actions, I would say she's trying to destroy Melissa and get her out of her family. So it seems like quite often I mean, that's what Joe Gorga thinks. I think that she would prefer Melissa not be part of the family because I don't think that she feels Melissa can like get in line, can like put on the suit and act in the way she's got to act to be part of this family. But I don't think that was her initial desire. But I think when they came on the show, that's when she realized, be that Melissa, that's that's I think when Melissa turned into an enemy as opposed to just someone who she was hoping could she be shaped. Yeah. And I think Teresa definitely does have some sense of hierarchy, because when you see Melissa taking a back seat and letting Teresa be the star around the time Juicy Joe went to jail, they actually got along for a couple seasons. So yeah, I do think she thinks like Melissa needs to have a certain place and it's behind her for sure. Well, she does, sister, so that kind of makes sense, like hierarchically culturally. But let's go back to that therapy session. Yeah. So they actually yeah, I think actually Joe and Teresa go to this therapist and try to get advice. And it's interesting too. They each take a moment with the therapist alone to explain their view of the issue, and then they come together, if I were working with Melissa and Joe and trying to help like heal some of the ruptures in their relationship, I would do something similar of like meeting. I'd probably start meeting with them together and here having them have to like rehash the problem in front of each other and then separately to see how like they describe it differently when someone's there versus when someone's apart. And I think I'd want to like really try to help them like break down the process of what happens between them because they're two people who really get caught up in the content. So they're going to want to pick out like, well, there was this moment and there was this moment and this moment hurt me and this moment that hurt me. And I'm going to want to be like, I don't care about any of the details. I want to get down into like, what hurt you? Where where is that hurt? What is that hurt? We want to get to the feelings underlying all that content. So I want to get into like where you feel rejected, where you feel misunderstood, where this is bringing up like your attachment wounds and help each other like see those things. Because I feel like that is the big missing piece here is they don't see each other's wounds and they're too busy protecting their own wounds to be able to come closer to each other. I think, honestly, the issues between Theresa and Joe, like Melissa, is, what, like a scapegoat. She ends up being scapegoated in all of it. And I think Melissa's issue is she thrives as a scapegoat, like she kind of like loves it and takes it on. And like, I think what Melissa really likes is that because Teresa is so volatile and reactive and disregulated, it makes her look like the moral superior one. And I think she thrives in looking like and like feeling like she is above Theresa. And I think the people who are the tree huggers, which like maybe I am, can see that. I don't think Melissa cares to heal that relationship either. I don't think Melissa cares to put it any effort there as well. And they go to this therapist and he basically says, like, don't focus on past hurts, just try to have some Sunday dinners where it just goes well and then that'll be the new pattern and you'll create a new pattern. Of course, none of that happens and they look very simplistic and like, yeah, right in that, like they need to stop rehashing the past in the content oriented way, right? Like because that's like what I was saying, they get stuck in that of like, you hurt me this way. No, you hurt me this way. No, you hurt me that way. And there's no hearing any of the like what, what, what's actually hurt underneath all of that and how do we get there more to be able to attend to each other's wounds. So but I get what he's saying about like have a few dinners, see what it feels like when you're getting along and how you can build up off of that. But the problem is that that is kind of like ends up sweeping the bigger issues under the like, right? You're going to have dinner next to a fucking rug that is like pile shoots underneath it. Like anyone makes a wrong move. They're going to trip over the rug like nothing is healed. Yeah. And then the next season they go to Lake George with these weird. Yeah, it was like two team building people, they were in way over their head and Rosie like sets it up. Kathy's sister, who was a jab. And basically they are going to rehash the issues and work it out and. Obviously ends up with Joe Gorgon, Juicy Joe punching each other again. But I wanted to be mindful of I think all of this happens as like this is when their legal issues are really coming to a head and like when charges have been filed There's a lot going on behind the scenes. Yeah. And that kind of isn't being acknowledged. And so you're seeing this sort of like erratic behavior from from especially from Teresa and Juicy Joe that like, we know there's stuff going on. But the context of like how bad it is doesn't become clear until later. Well, and I think of Melissa and Joe, gorgeous perspective. A lot of the rumors and stuff about Melissa helped detract from that stuff and did they do that intentionally? So that's kind of the big fight, is that I guess Jackie had gone to Melissa and said, you know, Teresa is behind some of these rumors or what have you. And then Teresa saying, Oh, that's not true. And so at this retreat there get into this argument about Jackie and her involvement in the rumors and the going back and forth. And Melissa gets down on her knees and is like, I forgive you if it happens. There's nothing to forgive. Like, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. She, like, won't let that go. And then because that was her loyalty, like, she can't be seen as disloyal. Yeah. And then Melissa is on her knees and she's like, You're the queen. I will bow down to you. I will be deferent to you. And bowing and being very dramatic and pleading with her, just stop attacking us. Just let us be family. Just like I just need to fix this. And it's funny because a part of me is so performative, though. So that's the thing. A part of me feels like there is a genuine you. Patricia, I wanted that. Like, leave the show. Yeah, you know, but you put yourself in this. I don't know. It's very hard to feel bad for Melissa. Like she made a choice to come on this show, and therefore, like. What is also just as responsible for all the things that come with it. Teresa says in her confessional, exactly what you're saying. Like this is performative, you know, going back to why, you know, people are tree huggers because she's like she's doing this on purpose to show that she's a bigger person than she can throw me under the bus and make me look like crap because I'm not doing that. And but a part of me does see a genuine thing from Melissa being like, I really just want this to end. And she, like, walks away after that. But when it comes to the show, I almost wonder how much Melissa plays into that, because I think Joe Gorga wanted the show. I think Joe Gorga loves the show. I don't know why he doesn't have a tagline and the like, whatever or whatever, the people of New Jersey hold a piece of garbage. Like, I don't know, like I wish they they did carry a piece of garbage that would be phenomenal. But I agree. I think he wanted the show. I think Melissa really wanted it, too, but I think he wanted it just as much. Hmm. And he's actually shown in a lot of ways that, like, he wants it more. But I think because Joe is such an erratic person, it also allows Melissa, again, to kind of like go into that place of being the moral superiority of the family. Yeah. Joe always jabs harder than anyone. That I never, ever gets like totally see. And I feel like there's a lot of people who, like, think Joe is charming, but he often goes below the belt first. Well, rewatching both those pivotal fight scenes, a christening and the Lake George moment, I mean, Lake George, Juicy Joe is outside with Rosie being like, one day he's going to push me and I'm going to like Evan Gillen kind of. And then Teresa comes out. I was like, he called me scum. And then Cheesy Joe's like, I told you, Rosie, this is the time. And he walks in. But actually, what you see is Juicy Joe kind of approaches Joe Gorga in both those situations, like he's just kind of walking towards him. He's not a fast mover, that he's not a fast mover. And Melissa is trying to be like he charged and like he didn't move that fast. He, you know, he's maybe built like a bull, but he move it like a bull. But it's more like a challenge. It's more like like saying so juicy Joe like walks towards Joe Gorga essentially in both these interactions and Joe Gorgeous comes at him swinging like, like just comes so hard at him. And then they, they want to keep saying it's juicy Joe that started it and it's like it it never is that it's. I mean, I know there was a fight like, like seven parts to their stories, right? There's like Giudice, Joe's version, the Teresa version, and then there's our version as viewers. And then there's like the producers who actually it's all the raw footage, like, yeah, ever a truth. And like this is again, sort of where they get caught up in like the details of things as opposed to like slowing down and trying to understand. And I guess that would make for really boring TV if we like slow down and really attend to like the dynamics that happened between them. But like there's no moment where someone's like, I'm actually going to be the bigger person and hold empathy, I guess sometimes like and I think that's why like the triangulation with like Louie and Melissa is really interesting because I think as outsiders they can do that the best, but in the end they still disagree with like the party outside of their spouse and so like they're not really like their is it non partial like it's like you don't really have like a good stake in this and this is why things get escalated. Yeah. Like so now Louie Louie is Theresa's new husband, him coming into the picture, you know, immediately. I wanted to hate him. Just. He's so red, he's so rad, and he's a real con man vibe. But this is where I struggle with Louie is that like, immediately upon seeing him, I wanted to hate him, but then like, he doesn't do a lot for me to hate him. And that's where I'm like very composed all the time. But it, it does feel like a masking. Campos And I do think Jamie Stein Shoutout said something really interesting on his podcast about and I can't remember with Jamie Stein or his guest, but about how it feels like Louie really loves being in a relationship with Teresa because he gets to be the regulated one. And I think he does have a lot of like internal rage and disregulation, but since he is already with someone who gets that way, it allows him to like maintain his cool and be the regulating force and almost similar to Melissa, like the one with like moral superiority I mean, even in that season when they're getting married, he tries to sit down with Joe, Melissa and Teresa and in the Jersey Shore and he's handling himself quite well. And then even in the reunion, he kind of tames down Teresa and is like, You can't act like that. You can't talk like that. Yeah, it is ironic that something she didn't really like about Melissa. Then she turns around and marry someone who's kind of doing the same thing even to her. You know, he doesn't always have her back in the way that I would expect her to. We you would expect him to. Yeah, it's interesting. But what I found was really interesting is, you know, everyone in the cast is kind of trying to take down Louie, which objectively seems like should be easy, but, like, they all keep failing. Yeah, it's like they're not hitting the mark. Like, I want to do a podcast or Margaret where we're going to do that before. Oh yeah. Because Margaret's like, Oh, he called my son at work. And it's like, Yeah, objectively, that's really weird. But like, you're not okay. But it's not like. It's not like it's like what? Like what happened? Like, what was the phone records show or something? Yeah. And then food are. He's like, Oh, she found my ex-wife in jail. And it's like, no journalists. Do you think journalists didn't want to find her? You think like this was, like, completely off the radar? Daily Mail was all over that. Like, come on. Like Louie involved or not, that was happening. That was going to happen. And you knew that. You knew that you joined the show, that you had a record, you knew that you had an ex, and you made it a whole storyline about your wife adopting your son. And she was in jail. The ex is in jail. Like you knew that was going to go down like Louie or no Louie, why are you trying to pull a pinata? Even if Louie did that, it was going to happen. Regarding Joe and Melissa coded, I feel like, Oh yeah, that coded. And so the one thing that Joe Gorga has against Louie is this pizza oven deal. And it's like, okay, so Joe Gorga had an idea to put skinny Italian or Joe and Teresa on a pizza oven together. I like earlier. You could make a lot of money for it. Yeah, I mean, not like a creative, like it's not an idea that's going to get, like, patented, like, yeah, it's your name on it. On a product that exists. Like, how is this original idea? And also like Teresa has the skinny Italian, it goes back to the first season they joint she had the cookbook and they were jealous of the cookbook or maybe not jealous, but according to Teresa, she thought they were jealous. But it's like, why do you keep trying to do deals with your family members when it keeps going wrong? Interesting cause they're on the oven. It is about like and with the book would go back it's about like competition and who's like who matters more in the family it feels like from the beginning. And Joe and Melissa want that same level of notoriety that Teresa got from the show. And so this pizza oven is like just another symbol of that, that like Teresa because what happened, right? Like they ended up boxing Joe out or something like Joe ended up like not being part of it. And then Teresa was just going to do it on her own. It wasn't even that. It was like Joe Gorga had this idea to do this pizza oven with their names on it, and I guess Teresa was maybe already doing some kind of pizza oven was going to do like skinny Italian, I'm sure. But either way, Louie was like, okay, good idea. I'm going to buy like 200 pizza ovens or, you know, a small batch just at least get it going. We're going to do all this and I'm going to put all the money in. And he put tons of money and he did this. He did actually buy the pizza or he says he bought the pizza ovens sitting in a warehouse somewhere. And basically then he goes to Joe Gorga. Okay, we're going to work out a deal that you get this percentage and I get most of the money because I fronted all the money and got the pizza ovens. Like you put no money into this and you want and then Joe Gorga is like, this is my idea. So because it was my idea, I should get 50%. And he's like the idea being that you put your name on a pizza oven that I bought the pizza ovens. It didn't make sense. It didn't make any sense. And like, that's essentially what they ended their brother and sister relationship over is how much Joe Gorga should get from the idea of putting a name on a pizza of it. It goes back to the $200 family rifts, the whole like multigenerational family transmission, like you are transmitting these emotional processes, these patterns throughout family history. Yeah. Like I would have loved to see in a reality show of like the Gorgas in Italy. Oh, yeah. Like an origin story. Like, I love that I bet it would be if not even more entertaining than this. Yeah. So, yeah, I think we're both. Straddling the line of being tree huggers. you know, I actually never liked Theresa. I always thought she would. I think the problem, the reason we were talking about this yesterday was how difficult it is to see her not be able to take accountability for things. And I think when I get most frustrated with a housewife, it's when they just like, it's fine to not take all the accountability. Like, that's kind of interesting. But like when it is patterned so intensely, like we see this in Alexia from Miami, we see it in Lisa Rinna, we see it. And I feel like Bethenny was kind of like that or like Ramona could be like, well, I guess Ramona would take accountability, but it would be like that surface, like, I'm sorry. And then I'm going to go do it again right away. Yeah. Which I don't know which is worse, but like the way Teresa just, like, digs her heels in the sand so hard and it so hard for her to, like, self-reflect and ever think like I have a role in the way things are is so frustrating. But to me, she is just more of an authentic person. Like what I see on TV feels like that is who she is through and through. Where when I look at Melissa, I'm like, I don't know who you are. Like, you feel like someone who's been you created this person to be on TV, to be like to be like to get attention. Like it feels like every move you make is not coming from a place of genuineness, but it's coming from a place of performance. And I don't like that. I get very like it gives me the edge. Yeah, she's a Bobby Fischer. I don't feel like emotionally connected to her in any ways. We're like Theresa. Yes. She frustrates me, and she. She can get on my nerves. There is something like deeply and profoundly connecting to her and I just feel like we've seen her grow a lot on the show where Melissa I've just seen her go through a lot of surgery on the show. Like, yeah, she looks different than season one, but she doesn't like different I mean, we're working against deep childhood traumas, I'm sure. So it's like we're not going to see day and night, but it does feel like there is something in her that is moving a little well. And I think when you say we don't like people, I think in general people don't like people who don't take accountability. But in a reality TV format, it goes back to the rules of improv, right? Like when you learn improv, shout out to Arianna, who takes it seriously. It's like you never say no. You always say yes because it keeps the story moving. And when you're sort of making it up as it goes along, you have to have that. And I think with accountability, when you just say no, you kind of hit a wall And there's a difference between what's right in life and what's right on moving story forward. And I think where Teresa doesn't take accountability, she does forgive and forget, you know, like her and Danielle Staub were at each other's throats. And then when Danielle came back in the fold, they were somehow friends. So she tends to do that. Or now she's like taking Jackie under her wing. She'll change up alliances for her own benefit. And where I know, like, it's don't matter to her, you know, like, the people aren't her family. And so like she give or take them, she's like, I'll take you if you benefit me. If you don't, I'll let you go. Whatever is going to, like, make this interesting. But the stakes are different with family for her. Yeah. And I think our ultimate girls trip, she says. Like, the reason I didn't want them to join the show is because I don't want to fight with my family. Which tells me she knows fundamentally that the show is built on conflict and she has to have control. She's so much smarter than we think she is. Yeah. And she and really I believe her in that because in that season two reunion, when Danielle tried to bring up her family conflict, she immediately shut it down and was willing to fight and to do so. Yeah. And what's really interesting is that I remember watching and I, I didn't rewatch any of the ultimate girls trip, but I remember what I watched that was just like. I think that's when I became a tree hugger because I was just like, she is so soft and relatable. Like, I remember there's one scene where she's like, cooking with all the girls in the kitchen and she's just so, like, relaxed and relatable and it's so lovely. And even though Melissa's there, which again, kind of brings back to your point of like, is Melissa the problem or is Joe the problem because he's not there? But Melissa is and she's having such an easy time getting along with Melissa, like there's not this big. She seems so much fucking lighter. And I think it's because there isn't all this pressure of family and finance and like I. I think that she is someone who truly feels she has to carry the family on her back, both financially, both emotionally, And that is such a huge burden for her. And I think in that setting, she didn't feel like she got to let all that go. Her daughters weren't on it. Her marriage wasn't on it. she just got to be like a light girl girl. And we saw this other side to her that was like, Oh, I really like her. And I can see why people want to be her friend and want to, like, be connected with her. Yeah. And I think Caroline, even in that first episode, when they join the show, she says Melissa and Teresa are the same person. And if they just accepted and respected their roles in the family, everything would be fine. And I think that really summarizes like everything because every everything like it literally either of them had watched that interview and just, you know, because Teresa does have a more respected role than Melissa. And that's like but again, it goes back to I think Joe Gorga was really trying to challenge all those fundamental norms of their family, and he was really the problem. And Melissa was scapegoat to Joe rejecting Teresa and that he scapegoated Melissa around that rejection as opposed to just taking accountability that like our relationship is different now and be the brother to you that I was and like just having a really open and honest conversation with her about that and instead made it like, Oh, you're just like he totally scapegoated Melissa on it and allowed for her to take the brunt of the family heat not only from Teresa, but I think like the rest of the family also had heat on her. So, I mean, basically where they're at now is that, you know, Andy, I almost feel like Andy was the family therapist to just be like, just stop. Just no, I want to quit on them because now I think he's like, I think he's oh yeah, fighting the high of it for a while. And last, I think reunion, he was just like, I give up, I'm done. No fixing this. There's no and I guess that's why we really wanted to talk about it here because from like a therapeutic perspective and from a production perspective, like I think we're both aligned that like this show is no good for them and they are no good for this show. Yeah, where do you stand on the cut off? Like, do you think that that was the right choice? You know, for them personally to not speak anymore. I rarely agree with, like a total cut off. And I also don't think they're as cut off as they say they are because they're still kind of like attending things somewhat together and being in each other's presence. And I also think they're still doing Melissa, maybe more than Teresa most and Joe maybe more than Teresa. Are still talking about the other person like they haven't really fully emotionally cut off. It's like this like superficial cut off that's going on. That like one from a therapeutic standpoint just seems like it's creating. It's like rubbing salt into a wound. And I think that if they truly want to cut off or create some healthy boundaries, they have to lose the show because I don't think the show will allow for healthy boundaries. Do you think if the show went down for a year and was on pause that they would form any kind of relationship or talk again? I think when the show ends, I don't know, a year, I don't know, ten years. I think when the show ends, they will eventually find their way back into some kind of relationship. It will never be what either of them wants it to be. But I think they will have some kind of relationship when the show is no longer a factor. and I would love to see them when the show ends, commit to doing some kind of long term family therapy, especially, I think just like Teresa and Joe, like for them to be able to like separate from their spouses and reduce the like process of triangulation in those relationships and really just to their core work on like repairing the ruptures and the wounds that they have and that they're carrying from their childhood would, I think, would be so healing for them and might set them up to create like a new idea of family with each other. Because I don't I think they both have very different ideas of what they want from family and they have a hard time, like seeing the value in the other person's ideas. And if they were able to just like slow down and validate and accept the other person's like limitations and capacities and what they have, they might be able to figure out, how do we fit together and where do we fit together? And we have all these kids who are now or who are now, you know, continuing on this legacy of like multi-generational projection pattern. We see it in the cousins now, like where they were close and now they're starting to kind of like lay out the same issues and dynamics and. Oh, yeah, that was a whole issue. Yeah. Wasn't there a whole issue that somebody didn't intend someone? Antonio Junior Melania's Sweet 16 or something, or some party after Melania had just attended hers. Again, competition. I did this for you. Why didn't you do that for me? But it's. It is kind of like playing out the same cycle. Yeah. And one of the things, I mean, when we talk about boundaries, like I think we both agree on this, the hardest boundary that they should really have set is no business with the family. It's obviously a pattern within their family. But Carolyn Manzo was a good example of this where she like they showed the family stuff, but she didn't. She was very controlled. And how much she would let it show on play on TV. Yeah, I think it's hard if you have that boundary and say no business in the family. I mean, the show is business. That's that's where it gets mixed up. And even like I think Joe and Melissa started a podcast and all they did was talk about Teresa and just they, they just need to stop. But so. Getting into the final questions. is reality TV good for families? I think I said last episode, is reality TV good for relationships? And I said, no. I mean, I have the same answer. Like no one. Yes. Like I know the same thing. Like it is an opportunity to reflect. Like it does give people a chance to look back and be able to, slow down and get insight if that's something they're willing to do. Yeah. And I think something that, you know, isn't discussed sometimes is, you know, when you're on a housewives or some any of these shows, you're in a controlled environment, you know, 4 to 2 months, three months. You know, you're shooting lunch scenes, party scenes, and you have a producer in your ear and they're following storylines. And while that's their job and that's your job and you're shooting a show, oftentimes, you know, there's some kind of conflict or rupture within your family. You can kind of like put it aside, live your life, take some time to reflect and then go back in a mature way and how you really want to handle it. Put your ego aside on reality TV. It's like, okay, there was a fight at the christening the next day, a producer's at your house with camera saying like, let's hash into it. Then the next day they show up with your cousin to be like, Let's hash this out. You know, you're not getting a moment to step back and cool off. And they're also there's not only that, but there is the like months later when it's replaying out on TV, you may have repaired some of it, but now you're reliving it. And those wounds are getting like ripped right back open. And it probably feels like you're right back at the start of that christening. And you're seeing things that you never saw before, confessionals that were from later snarky comments. I mean, it's almost like you could just not watch the show like Ariana did with Vanderpump Rules. But I mean, then you take which we definitely need to do a Kyle and her sisters break down. But, you know, Kyle and her sisters, I think, you know, her bringing out that Kim was an alcoholic, I think was transformative for their relationship, you could say in a negative way, but I actually think in a positive way. Family secrets and shame and guilt or something that can't live in reality TV because it's all going to come to the surface. So, I mean, you would see in relationships, you know, affairs being exposed. Gen eight and on Real Housewives of New Jersey talks about how her husband cheated on her and she swept it under the rug and then had to confront it. So I think there are benefits. I think it has to it goes back to what level of boundaries do you have? And I think you brought up with Caroline, she did a better job at controlling what was said about the family. So I think that there is ways you have to be savvy, you have to be smart. And when you're coming from a place of deep hurt and core values like we're talking about with Theresa, you're your reaction is coming from a very deep place that there is not a lot of logic playing into your reactions. So I think that's where Theresa just, you know, she she never had a chance to basically make her amazing TV, but it makes her a really difficult family member. Yeah. And is it good for us to see these kind of family dynamics on reality TV? You know, obviously, the fans of New Jersey are are crazy and they're always going behind the scenes and starting drama and then the drama spills over to the show. I think all of that, you know, goes back to what I was saying is comes from this is triggering to people who have these kind of things in their own family patterns, in their own family, even like us preparing for this podcast, I was like, Oh my God, so much with my new family, with my new husband, so much with my old family. And in a way, it allows for you to analyze those things and think about those things. So I do think it's actually a positive thing. I agree. I think it's really helpful because I think whether you love or hate Teresa, she's someone you can look at and think like, okay, I don't want to be someone who doesn't take accountability like that. So how do I slow myself down and start thinking about how I am contributing to my relationship issues? I think it's also interesting. I think it's really helpful for people to see different ways family structures can be built and what happens when we are rigid in that and that we don't allow for more flexibility in those expectations those boundaries, those roles, those. Dynamics. I think there's I think it is a helpful thing for us to see. And hopefully as a viewer, you it allows you to reach into your self, into your capacity to self reflect in your capacity to, Not want to play out cycles in this sort of maddening way. Yeah, definitely. And you know, when it comes to expectations, which I think we kind of clashed on was, you know, I think I don't mean clash on it, but I just clash on it because I think you're holding the idea that Teresa should have the same That's I guess I'm defending like I get where Teresa is coming from in her expectations in that is like a deeply embedded cultural thing for her. It's not something that like she's going to easily be able to see someone else's perspective on it. Yeah. And I guess where I clash on that is just being like has to make I understand where Melissa, Melissa and Joe come from, where it has to make sense, like it has to make sense. I remember when Teresa was single and she was saying, you and Joe wouldn't invite me out for these dinners and these things. And Ed did that. And then Melissa and Joe were like, Well, we go out with other couple friends and it would feel awkward and weird for you if it's all couples and then you. So we were thinking, okay, we should invite her things where it makes sense. And that's where sometimes I'm like, okay, these expectations or whatever does need to make sense in a way that, you know, it's not just an obligation moment there where they're like, Oh, we understand where it must be hard for you because like, we know that this is like there's no acknowledging her perspective and she's not acknowledging there's like I don't think either of them is right or wrong. I think there's just this total lack of empathy for the other person's experience in this situation and for where those expectations are coming from. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I mean, we're talking about people who are not very emotionally intelligent. Then we're talking about some people from New Jersey. What were we talking about them earlier? Like a piece of trash, the whole thing. Yeah. Next season when they reboot New Jersey, please have them hold a piece of, like a, like a special, like a track going in the background when they, you know, when they're all in the front, like holding whatever, just have like a garbage truck, put one in the bag. The reason we really want to talk about this, I think to kind of end things off is like, where do we go from here? How does this go on? Like, do we want to continue to watch them play out these things? Do we want to continue to watch them in some emotional cut off going to different parties? Like, is this interesting? Is this good TV anymore? I think every one which the fans are very divided. Surprisingly that one thing that have brought everyone together is to say no. Like nobody wants to watch this at all. Something that I thought was interesting that came up on Ultimate Girls Trip was is New Jersey foundationally about families? And there's an element to me that feels like it is. Yes. Culturally like part of what we're watching in these different Housewives franchises is the culture of the different places like think about Beverly Hills. What's that culture? It is richness. It is like fame. It is this. And we see that play out. And part of what we're watching in New Jersey is this like Italian, Italian-American, jersey culture, which I think is about family. Yeah. So I mean means to you that is at the core. Like even when it started, it started with Carolyn and her family and then it switched over. There was no way this was going to move in an interesting way without it being about family, because most of these people and even like you look at Canadian who's not Italian, but like her whole thing is family. Like everyone, they all have their own interesting connection to family. And that's what makes them interesting. And that is. Part of their culture and I don't see any other way this show could like it has to stay that way, but it's like, do we move to a different family or do we just end it because like this family has ended now? Like, where does that go? Yeah. I mean, I still think Teresa's an interesting character to keep watching. Do I feel that way about Joe and Melissa? To be honest? Not really. But I do think even like Danielle, who I really loved when she joined the show, it's she's an interesting family thing, too. That's exactly that's what I'm saying. So I wonder if it goes drowning her out and they just clear house and start with a whole new crop of people because I think a lot of. I was reading somewhere that, you know, Teresa's so famous especially in New Jersey, that anyone you get on the show is either going to hate her, love her, or have some opinion on her or be a fan. That is a little time already. We see it already. And I think the other thing I want to say about the family aspect of it is like why family is so important to it is because if you look at like Carolyn, Carolyn or Teresa like other people in their lives, are dispensable. Mhm. Their family is not there's more stake there. We talked about this a little bit earlier but like therefore if we don't bring in a family dynamic, it's just going to be wishy washy, be a series move wherever the alliance is. There's not going to be like there's not going to be a more interesting conflict where it's like, I like what's so interesting about the thing with her and Joe is this like push and pull where she's like, I want to be connected with you now. I feel rejected and I'm against you. I want to be connected now. I feel rejected. I'm against you. And that is an interesting conflict to watch. But if they're just cut off, then we're not watching that anymore. Yeah. Which I mean, I think the most interesting scene of the last couple of seasons was at the Jersey Shore when Joe Gorga hit the table, as he loves to do, and went off about Jackie Joe and how he never really got a real apology about sinning. Yeah. Trees at a prison. And the interesting that she needed an apology. Oh, yeah. But the raw emotion from Joe Gorga in that moment was real to me. And it was very it was again, it goes back to the family structures. Like he felt that he needed he needed an apology. And Teresa was kind of like, I barely got an apology and I had to go to jail, just like I accepted his apology. Yeah. And then again, she and Joe Gorga kind of got in a fight, and that was wild to watch the next generation doing the same patterns. But yeah, I'm at a point where I think it's a clean house situation. And if you like productions at that point too, right? Like it feels like they were going to do another season to see how it hashed out. And I think based on sort of like how things played out, they're not happy. Yeah, I think it's I think you're going to see a long pause for Jersey and I don't know if any of them will be back. I don't know if there'll be a whole new show, but I think you're going to see what happened with Atlanta, which is probably a year, a solid year without Jersey. So enjoy it while you while you have it. And I we're going to do an update for you and do the eyes on Louie to make sure he like that was clean during the. I mean, I'm just you know, when she married that guy, I was like, this is going to be a train wreck. I'm going to relish watching. And to be honest, it's like we've gotten nothing and they're all trying to take him down. And I'm like, Is he a Teflon Don here? What's happening? Because I thought he'd be an easy target. And he's still I mean, he's they're taking pictures with Taylor Swift. So. They got money for those VIP Coachella tickets. Can't be doing that bad right now. Jia's appearing on this new show, too. Made in Manhattan. That should be interesting. Should be it nipples in New York. New name alert. It is not HBO's in New York. It's a better title, actually. Let us know what you think. I know everyone has a lot of opinions on this, and we're opening the floodgates, you know? Mm hmm. I'm ready. I'm ready. Yeah. Time to fight us. You know, we need some dissenting opinions. Yeah. We're ready for our first guest. Who wants to join? Yeah, yeah. We've got some things in the hopper for that, too, so thanks for listening. Till next time. Bye bye.