Episode 7: Dissenting Opinions

Have you ever found yourself in a heated argument with your best friend over...reality TV? Then this episode is for you! We're shaking things up today as TV Producer Jenny and therapist Sam break from their usual deep dives into reality TV characters to welcome their first guest: reality TV producer Amy Rhodin. Get ready for some lively debate as Amy brings her unique perspective on the latest Bravo-universe bombshells. From Lindsay Hubbard's shocking pregnancy announcement to the future of Vanderpump Rules and the impact of Bravofandom on our favorite shows, we've got all the hottest gossip you need. Tune in now for an episode you won't want to miss!

Disclaimer:
Welcome to "Unhinged and on Camera" podcast. We want to make it clear that any opinions expressed on this platform are solely for entertainment purposes and should not be construed as professional advice.

The views and opinions shared on this podcast do not constitute medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Additionally, "Unhinged and on Camera" is an independent production and is not affiliated with the hosts' past or present employers. Any discussions or references to employers are purely coincidental and not representative of their views or policies.

We urge our listeners not to make any decisions or take any actions based solely on the content of this podcast or associated social media platforms. Any interaction with the hosts via email or social media does not establish a therapeutic relationship, and we are unable to provide any therapeutic advice, treatment, or feedback.

Thank you for tuning in, and remember to always consult with qualified professionals for any medical or therapeutic concerns.

Transcript

Unknown: Hello. Hello. Are unhinged friends? I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam, a psychotherapist in New York City, where best friends and Bravo super fans.

Unknown: and we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars.

Unknown: This is unhinged and on camera.

Unknown: Welcome back. Oh, my gosh. I'm so happy to see you, Jenny. It feels like it's been so long. I know we took a week off, but we're back and there's so much to talk about. And today we're doing something different for the first time. We have a guest today. Our first guest. One thing that's come up as we've been doing this podcast is sometimes me and Sam tend to agree a lot for the sake of our friendship, but also, you know, being a Bravo fan so many times you're hanging out with girlfriends and they have a different opinion and sometimes that can be awkward and you got to get into that debate. But that's also the fun part about Bravo. So we really wanted to bring in someone who had dissenting opinions from us and different thoughts. So today we are welcoming another reality TV producer, the one, the only, Amy Rodino. Welcome to the podcast, Amy. Hello. Hello. We are so excited to have you and to think I met you in a villa, just like on Love Island. I know very Casa Amore. We were, like, a mile away from the other house and doing our own fun stuff. Yeah. So, Amy and Sam, I stuck them together in a villain, Italy, when I got married because Amy's very chill, and Sam has a toddler, so that was a perfect mix. But also, me and Amy have worked together. We worked together four years on Teen Mom two, some other shows. But she's a super talented producer and journalist, and you've probably seen her names growing by quickly on numerous shows, including shows for Netflix E News. And she just has a great perspective on reality TV where she sees it in a bigger picture. That executive level role of not only season wide but series wide. So she really has a bird's eye view of what's going on in the production world right now, which is a lot. So it's time to get into it. Yes, there's so much to discuss. So I mean, we have to start with the Lindsay news from over the weekend. We talked about this in our follow up pod about Lindsay that there was a rumor going around that she was pregnant and July 4th, she decided to drop that bomb. She is, in fact, pregnant with her new boyfriend who remains a mystery. they have fallen pregnant two or three months into their relationship. Yeah. Very early, But I want to give our guest a chance to react. What was your thoughts on the Lenzi announcement? Yeah. So Lindsey announced on the 4th of July that she's preggers. And it was a sponsored ad by Claire. And I think there might be some dissention in here, but I kind of love. I'm like, so pro get that money. Lindsey is a hustler. She's a business girl. I think it was a really smart move. I agree with that. Me and Sam have a running joke where I say you're not pregnant unless you have a clear blue ad. So the fact that she had that clear blue ad was just hilarious and I supported it. And get that bag. She's got a baby to support. So something I have heard is that the guy that she's with, this unknown baby daddy is someone she had been with a while before. She had gone on a couple of dates with Jeff and then put him on ice, I think was the the words in the article or on the reunion. what do you guys feel about the timing of this? All summer houses, just about. They just started filming. 4th of July is the first weekend of the show. I think she needed to announce it before they started filming because it was going to come out. I have. A lot of feelings about her being pregnant and going back on the show that I'd like to talk about. I also want to preface that I am really sensitive to what pregnancy after loss means on a personal level. And so I as much as I want to be critical of all of Lindsay's moves, I also want to be very respectful of like what that means and all of that. So just to name that up top. I mean, I think congrats to Lindsay. I'm happy for her. I do think there's a bit of a calculation in that. Like I remember last summer with Karl, she kept being like, This is my last summer because next summer are we pregnant? And I was like, Girl was going to get pregnant no matter what. Like, she was me, right? Which I support because, like, I support anyone who wants anything in their life and makes it. I think the complicated part is like her with this new guy, you know, which I'm also happy for her. It just seems very rushed. And I think she's very attached to narratives and the PR of it all. And like as someone who works in reality TV, I think that she's been on it for so long that she gets married to that. And even her PR announcement was very much like, I'm in a healthy relationship now and we have effective communication. And it was like, Girl wrote this to Shade Karl as much as possible. I also feel it also feels like that's the narrative they had Lindsay and Karl had of their relationship that first summer. They came and were so healthy, were so good, were best friends. Everything is perfect. This is Lindsay's M.O. is she knows how to, like, come out with the PR surface and now we're not going to see this relationship. And so similar to like her putting out this is the breakup narrative. Like, we're not even get the real narrative of this relationship. So are we even interested in watching her just be pregnant at a house where everyone's drinking? Oh, yeah. Take it. What is your thoughts, Amy? Well, I think. I thought this a few summers ago that summer house in it's the way that it does production needed a bit of a shift with the older crew the Kyle, the Lindsay, the Carl, Amanda. Even Paige. Even Paige. Yeah. There's a feeling kind of like until this season, I was feeling so much like that hangover of, like, we've seen all your stories already. Like, we get it. What is new here? What is like? We need new energy, new stories, or it's not fun. Summer should be fun for a while. Summer House was not fun. So I think that this is such an interesting production schedule now with Karl and Lindsay are broken up for sure. They're not speaking, but they're about to be in this house together. Lindsay's in the middle of her first pregnancy. She'll be the first pregnant person that we know of in the summerhouse house. So except on Martha's Vineyard, where we had Jasmine. Oh, yeah. Which Jasmine I think was a little different because she was pregnant, but she didn't announce it till in the middle. So she wasn't drinking. But a lot of people, she also, like, didn't just come off a season where she ended her engagement, where she was planning to, like, get pregnant. Like, there's so much complexity to this I don't know how it plays out in a way that feels good because part of why I think it's going to be really hard to throw Lindsay into this house four months pregnant is everyone is going to treat her with kid gloves because no one is going to try to activate the pregnant woman. And if you do, then you're automatically the bad guy. And so like basically she's coming in with all the favor. And again, it's sort of like the similar narrative that went into like before we saw this last season of Summer House where she spun the whole narrative of what the break up was. So we all went into that season thinking, Karl's going to be the bad guy, he's the worst one, he's the problem. And then it played out differently. And we were able to like, see both sides to it and see that they were both the problem and both like able to like hold her accountable to some degree for like giving a false narrative of exactly what happened, where now it's like no one can say anything to her because she's pregnant. Like, no one's going to say something mean to the pregnant lady. No one's going to, and maybe they will, but no one's going to be like, How could you get pregnant so early? Because, like, you don't say that to someone who's pregnant and especially pregnant after loss. On the dissenting opinions front, the, you know, narrative and social media was very much that Andy came too hard for Lindsay and that everyone came too hard for Lindsay at that reunion. And I know you had different feelings on it than me and Sam. So what was your take on everyone coming for Lindsay? And also how now coming into the house? She's coming in the house and everyone sort of was against her, but she's pregnant, so there will be kids gloves. So. Yeah. What's your take on that, Amy? Well, do you guys feel like Lindsay during the last reunion was held accountable? Four things that happened. I think they tried to. I think Lindsay struggles to self-reflect and have any true accountability. And you saw it in the way that she couldn't even acknowledge that she threw her partner at the time. Sobriety under the bus in a public forum. Which I think she she's explained on social media. But I didn't think she did a good job in the reunion of explaining how, like, yeah, she had gotten messages from other people who, like, dealt with people who are like sober and stuff and that they were basically like, this is something that I also struggle with. Like, I've seen changes in my partner and then I'll be like, Are they using again? And that's where my mind goes. And I don't know if that's exactly what Lindsay was trying to do. It didn't really seem that way. It didn't feel that way. It didn't feel that way. But that was a valid argument, and I think she could have made that. And she didn't do as well a job in the reunion. And also because then she did it again at the reunion. She did it again by by like calling out the whole mushroom thing like and continuing on this narrative of like, well, why don't I get to drink if he's like, why does my drinking get questioned and his sobriety doesn't? It's like, those are two very different things. And then Kyle was definitely the wrong messenger to hit her. And then that was the hypocrisy. The men on Bravo always make the wrong move like Amanda should. And someone else should have said something. Yeah. So, do you feel like she was held accountable? I agree with you guys on some of this, but there is something that I feel like is happening behind the scenes with this show in particular where Lindsay is. Of course, doing things that to us seem absurd and from a probably therapist standpoint are so uncool. So uncalled for, unacceptable. And couples safe relationship. Calling someone out for not being sober technically, for maybe smoking weed, cocaine, Carl, whatever it is. Like, that's not cool. However, dissenting. I do feel like Lindsey. Is someone who has opened up her life for this show for a long time. She's written the highs of it. She's been in the lowest parts of it. She said the craziest stuff. But she also has been there and I believe, open with her life and her story and has been honest of what's going on in her life. And so I think that what we were seeing this past summer was her attempting, after years of being in the flow of a show like this to share. Like this is actually what really what's going on in our relationship like. He's a different person behind behind closed doors, you know, like we don't know really what's happening with with couples. But like she is telling her one friend in the house, Gaby, that. Karla's not always this like chill cool bro that he tries to be when he's in the house like his life seems very complicated and difficult and he's gone through so much trauma and so much. He is also shared on camera. But I do think that Lindsey has been given an unfair role by having to sort of like communicate the truth, but also wanting to come across as like a good person. And it doesn't seem like you're a good person if you're saying like, yo, are you on cocaine right now to someone who's sober? But I do think they were in this sort of like clearly unmatched ability to communicate the reality of their situation or even to just come into the house each week with a game plan together. Like watching them kind of both from different sides destroy each other. It's like as a couple, you nev you have to be that unit. You have to be the bubble and keep the things tight. I and I want to hear your perspective on this, Sam, from like a therapy perspective. But like I think that Lindsey has been given kind of this unfair role because there is a click of girls in the house, the page, the Sierra. And listen, I love these girls. They can also be not the nicest people in the world. But there's definitely groups which, you know, happens in any house, any shared house. That's real reality. But. Lindsay kind of had to come into this summer. Trying to kind of share what was really going on, but without anyone she could really confide in. And also the years of Amanda Kyle Page just looking for every single thing that Lindsay does to harp on. And so I think that's just like a kind of an impossible position to walk into. And I feel like this whole season you could kind of see her anxiety every time she had to be around the whole group. And that first episode when Karl, like, says, I guess, you know, what we didn't see, like, which is always the worst on Bravo. Like in the cab, you know, whatever he was saying to Lindsay that was coming from her anxiety about like, I think the girls are going to freak out that I didn't go in the car with them. Like they're going to make a whole narrative this summer that I don't participate with the girls. I just am like on the boys side. Like, there's some severe anxiety I get from Lindsay about her actual, narrative that she's getting from the girls. But what happened was like by trying to play into that, she ended up doing it all backwards and like kind of making herself isolated by going about it the wrong way So I it's not that I think that Lindsay really ever says the right things, like, I cringe so much, especially, you know, they're about to get married and like I'm about to get married if you guys saw me having these conversations with my fiancee. On camera, I would hope you would be like, please never speak to each other again. This marriage ain't going to work. I want to slow this down a little bit because I think you said something really interesting. about her having a really unfair role. And I agree and disagree with that, where I think that's a role she takes on herself. Like it's not like a role that's been thrown on her. She's chosen to be on TV. She's chosen to show her life. And it is a choice how you choose to show up to filming. I also think that she has a role and responsibility for why the Amanda's the pages, the Sierra's have negative relationships with her. That is not coming from them being a set of mean girls. If we go back in history that is shown on Summer House, she has done things to each of those people to make them wary of her and to make them respond to her in a certain way. And so, yes, her anxiety going into that was valid. But as someone, if she truly had an ability to self-reflect or have self-awareness, she would look back and be able to take accountability for the way she's behaved that has made these girls feel this way and respond this way towards her. And yet she doesn't. And then she's surprised every time that they like like these girls came together at the end of the season to support her. They didn't all agree. They didn't all say their full truths because time and place, it's not the time and place for Paige to come in and be like, I told you so Like she did what a girls girl does. And she showed up and gave her a hug and that her opinions later. But those opinions are coming from a place of like her own experience with Lindsay. And I just I really like Lindsay, actually. I really connect with her in a lot of ways. But her lack of ability to take any responsibility for her own behaviors and actions in any not just relationships with men, but relationships with women, with all relationships is beginning to really frustrated me. Yeah. And make me feel disconnected from her. Yeah. And, I mean, I think, like. Every woman. Probably men, too. But you know, who cares about them? Every woman has been in a situation where they have to walk in a room and like all the girls hate her or all the people hate her or they feel attacked. And I think that a lot of fans related to that. And I think that and the other thing somebody had said to me was Lindsey operates from her ID like from pure emotion. And I think a lot of women watch her and they're like, I want to be like that. I want to be able to go in and fight with my ex and just spill out everything I'm feeling and it be okay. And I think that she does allow women to see themselves in her in that way, that she's raw and messy. And I think, you know, she does deserve someone who really loves her for who she is despite all of that, I just think sometimes her reactions to things make it hard to operate in a couple, like the way she was with Karl and Carl was like, I'm trying to tell you something that I need from you. And then she was like, I, me take it or leave it, but she doesn't really accept people how they are. And it's like a double standard. That is, it's not serving her. what I feel like after seeing this pregnancy announcement is that she should in my opinion, I would really love to see Lindsay take a step back and maybe take a Stassi Schroeder role in all of this, because I think she really loves controlling the narrative and that's important to her. And I think I could see her writing a book and doing a podcast and not having to be on Summer House. And I think what you were saying, Amy, about Summer House kind of aging, a lot of people aging out of summer house and how are they going to adapt to this? And I think that's a really interesting conversation to have. And also, I think for Lindsay, I think she could be really successful taking a step back, having this relationship off camera or having a baby off camera. And maybe she could come back on to Real Housewives of New York or something like that, something where she could control the narrative and her relationship is not like the prime you know, storyline of hers, you know? Yeah. Can you imagine? I mean, Summer House, from what I know, it does film a little bit out of order. This just like behind the scenes, it doesn't really film every single weekend. They don't drive out to the Hamptons. It's more like they do do that like a couple times through the summer, but it's more like they'll film like a week, a week and a half at a time, and then you get like four days off at home. Then they come back and just like, imagine, how are they going to like? I'm like, how are they going to shoot Lindsay driving to and from the Hamptons pregnant without getting like. Carsick the whole time. That's all I can think of this season. I'm like, Just put her in a house where she can stay in SAG Harbor, she can be in Bridgehampton and just like relax and put her feet up, go into the house whenever she wants to. That's why they did it with Snooki on Jersey Shore. Snooki had like a separate apartment, a separate house. We're like, I. Do we want to see a pregnant person? As someone who was a pregnant person at some point. I have a three year old that was pregnant during the pandemic, so I didn't really have any FOMO or miss out on anything, thank God. But like, I would never have wanted to go to a share house where everyone is partying while I'm pregnant. Yeah, it sounds miserable. She's going to walk in there and, like, it's going to smell like hell. Like that house dirty. It smells. No one claims that the idea of it all sounds crazy. And watching a pregnant woman argue. I mean, I don't want to like. B, I think. Pregnancy. Yeah. Equal opportunity for you. But do we want to see that? But you don't. It's not equal opportunity for pregnancy. Because again, I do think like you should and have to treat pregnant women with kid gloves. They have hormones that are not normal. They, you know, like you're not in your normal being. And so, yeah, there is should be an expectation that people treat her differently and treat her keep her calm. Right. Like during pregnancy. Don't want to risk getting too stressed. You don't want to risk and especially again, pregnancy after loss, you don't want to take all these risks. And so everyone is going to be expected to be kind and nice and whatever and it's just going to feel very fake. Yeah, I mean, on the production standpoint, I know in the Valley Janet was pregnant and I guess during one of those, I feel like they treated her. That's the one I was thinking of. That's the one I was thinking of. I do feel like nobody called her out on her bullshit. She was like stirring, doing shit and like, no one could say anything. And the one time somebody did everyone's like, how dare they say something to the pregnant lady and like, I get it. But also the like point. Yeah, from a production standpoint, she was on a podcast and she was I think it was seen as podcast, but she talked about very unbiased. Yeah. Know, she talked about how after that Capri dinner it was so dramatic and whatever she started having like some pains and she went to production and was like, I cannot do this. Like I can no longer film with Kristen. I can never. Or maybe it was the second it was the dinner at the hotel. She was like, I can't do this anymore. I can't be around Kristen. I can't be in this environment. It's not like healthy for me. And then production was like, if you don't want to be around certain people and it's stressing you out, you have free will to say and do whatever you want. And that's actually why, like the whole Big Bear thing happened where they didn't come. And I mean, from a production standpoint, you have to respect cast regardless. If they don't want to film with someone, it just gets it from your perspective. Doesn't make it difficult when a cast member is like, I won't film with this person, but it's essential. And then, yeah, let's take that into the VP PR where we are with Vanderpump Rules, because I know you have a lot of opinions on that too. I do have a lot of opinions. And one thing that I think on the topic of Lindsay is important is like, what are we even going to see with her and Karl in this house? Like, what does the audience what do we want to see them like come to some sort of peace? I mean, personally, not really. I am kind of at a point and again, might be a dissension where I'm like. Carl. You know, he's a sweet guy, it seems like. But I just feel like, what the. What are we getting here? Like, aside from the Lindsey relationship and the epic last season of how it all collapsed, I'm just. I disagree. You want to see them come together? No, but I disagree on like Karl. I think Karl should stay and Lindsay should go while she's pregnant. I think Karl brings a really in from, like, a psychological perspective. Like Karl brings something interesting that I think is important for people to see, which is carrying sobriety and trying to maintain friendships with people who aren't sober. And I do think he is doing a beautiful job of especially this last season of showing what that looks like, being able to, like, go out and have fun and maintain your sobriety. And I think that's a really important thing for people to see I do feel like he's one of the people who shown a lot of personal growth. Is he perfect? God, no. Does he have a lot of trauma to work through? Yes. You know, like if we really, really take a minute to think about, like, Karl's experience, it is really sad. Like he has a brother who died from addiction. Like, that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There are things this family went through for him to have become an addict himself or his brother to become an addict so much that he overdosed and died. Like there's real trauma there. And I think I do think it's helpful as an audience to see that and to see the growth that he's making and to also own that like that. Growth is not perfect like and that we and I think this is something we can talk about a little bit later about like the way viewership expects perfection from people and expects this like sort of all or nothing thing of like you are either the good boy or the bad boy. There's no room for anything in between. And it feels really unfair. And I feel like keeping him on allows us to maybe start to see that. GRAY That that would be my hope with Lindsay. I'm just not sure what she what she would bring as a pregnant person on the show. Like I'm who I'm in a perfect relationship now, yet I've done no real work. I got in that relationship a couple months after I ended my engagement. I'm not sure what we're gaining as viewers watching that. I'd be interested if she had the boyfriend on, but. Amy, are you interested in seeing Karl Date again? Are you like, I'm over that storyline because we have seen Fuck Boy Karl for many seasons prior to the Lindsay engagement. I think when it comes to Summer House, I am fully of the standpoint again that just summer should be fun. I think this was the first time in years we've seen them partying. Paige finally went out to a bar. Amanda like, showed up anywhere, you know, like, and it was fun. And we got to see fights. We also got to see, like, the new energy of Jesse and West. Like, we got to see fun hookups, you know, putting the towel over the the corner camera. Like that's the old school summer house stuff that works the corn kind of organic, like what really happens in in summer shares, you know, in the Hamptons. Like that's the fun, real stuff that I want to see personally. So when it comes to Karl. I totally agree with you. I think his story is amazing. I think it's important. But at the same time on this show, I'm kind of just like I feel like I've seen it all. I don't feel like that energy is what the show needs to keep going, because if we keep repackaging the same stories, we're going to be in a position that's similar to like Housewives of New Jersey, Vanderpump Rules, where it's like, where are we going here? And why do we care? Like, we love Carl. We've also seen him go through relationships, go through trauma, go through loss, and now go through this this breakup. what I would want from Karl this summer is to come in and have fun. I think we're going to see a different Karl this summer. I really believe that because now he is out of that relationship. I don't think he's going to be rushing in because I think he is aware of his image. And so I don't think he's going to be rushing to hook up with girls because I think he wants to portray himself a certain way. And I do think we're going to see a little bit of a like a different side to him. I think Amy brought up a good point that I want to hit on, which is that with these younger shows. Summer House, Southern Charm, Vanderpump Rules, we're seeing a lot of people age out of them like Kyle and Amanda need to have a child because Kyle is in his forties and now deejaying. Lindsey is having a child. Kyle's aging backwards. Yeah, he's aging backwards, actually. Vanderpump Rules that cast is in disarray and now on pause. Lola's having a second child. Ariana is hosting Love Island. And then even with housewives, what we're starting to see is a lot of these OGs are, you know, their stories are played out and we're losing the OGs. And with the recast of Real Housewives of New York, which works in some sense didn't work at other sense, are we at a place where a lot of these housewives shows need to fully recast and restart? Atlanta's going through that right now. Jersey is on pause and not even having a reunion. So, yeah. What's your take, Amy, on the State of Bravo and how are they managing this behind the scenes? Yeah, well, let's get to that fully in one sec, because I want to just one more thing to piggyback on that idea for Summer House. The last thing I really want to see on this show is Kyle do what he did last summer. No one does know. Like I. It blows my mind that the the network and D didn't even mention that he called his wife a fucking bitch and basically eviscerated her and her life and her goals and her ideas. Clearly, that's why we're seeing Amanda as a shell of a person now like she's. We, of course, don't know what's really happening in the relationship. There must be something there must be some sort of love that we don't know that keeps them together. But the idea of keeping someone like Kyle on again this summer with this kind of like cachet against Lindsay because of what happened with Karl. I am very just worried about how that makes the house feel and what the audience is going to see again, And I hear this from the audience. You know, it's what we're reading and read. It's what, you know, even my friends will text me and be like, Why is Kyle still there? Like, we love him, but what? Well, he's like another one similar to Lindsay. We want to see him self-reflect and grow. And this is what I think could be interesting about these shows and ends up being like it feels like this on both Vanderpump Rules and Summer House is like. We are sort of growing with these people because we're similar ages to them. And so it's fun to see them go from like their partying, you know, late twenties, early thirties to like this new stage of life where they're now in long partnerships and marriage and having children. But we want to see them grow as people and not just be like getting married, but there's no growth having children. But there's no growth like this is where it starts. And we see it on Vanderpump Rules, too. Like, Lola had children, but there wasn't really any growth. Like, okay, she was softer to men, but like, I don't know if that's really growth. Like, she has a kid and she's married, but she's still like the same person. We're not seeing like we're not seeing them mature. And I think that's where for me, at least as an audience and just as a person and maybe also just as a therapist who like tracks like how people are growing by their behavior and their way, they're talking about their feelings. I feel like we could watch season one Sheena and season now Sheena and like the way she speaks about herself and the world is the same. And that's kind of concerning, but also is this is the show making them stay stunted because like with Kyle? That's a good question. Yeah, because I think with Kyle, like he's a bit of an anchor, I would say, for Summer House, even though the fans don't even feel like they really need him. But he's a bit of an anchor and I can see that him and Amanda have this agreement almost like we're going to stay in summer house til this gravy train ends. And I think that's actually preventing Amanda from having a kid, and it's also preventing Kyle from agreeing to her wanting to have a kid and then even Lala and Sheena having kids. I think they are. I mean, you saw on the last season, even in the reunion, they were like, we're we're doing all this to stay on the show to make money. That that was the one thing I got. That was the narrative that was the whole plot of the last season is like we're here to make money. So like do the things you got a song and dance you got to do to make money. And it's like it's like an artist, like a singer who, like, their first album sounds exactly like their last album. Like where is growth? Where is change, where is maturity? You can add these different things into their life. But again, if like we're not, we're not seeing them, it's almost like if we're not seeing their lives match something that feels similar to how we're experiencing growth, then we get disconnected from them. Yeah, and one thing about Summer House is like the reality of a 42 year old man and his wife living in a share house. Shitty house that smells bad and like with cameras in the corner is absurd. Like no one would do that. So the only thing that in my mind Bravo really needs to focus on this season is how do we mix up this house transition to the younger generation, the way that they have, the transition to a younger generation and then like shift the older generation to some new format? have Kyle and Amanda at their own house for the summer. They're focusing on their relationship or and we could talk about this that doom y blind about Kyle maybe cheers ing to this being his official divorce season. Did you guys see that? Yes, where there's smoke, there's usually fire. I know there's so many, like, tick tock detectives and stuff and they're saying, like, Amanda and Kyle haven't posted a single, like, real thing together. Everything's been a pseudo sponsored post for months. You know, I would love to see Amanda and Jesse Solomon together. I think that is that have some hot chemistry. They really do. Yeah yeah he like makes I think it's just because we also are seeing Amanda when she's like not with Kyle. She is more playful. Sexy, like she's yeah, she's like, well, she doesn't have to be the parent, right? Like with the Kyle, she's like, either the infantilized wife or she's his parent telling him to come to bed. Yeah, that's. And neither of those roles are not easy, by the way. Yeah. If I was doing couples therapy with them, that would be my first thing to explore is like, Amanda, you're either like he's either treating you like a baby. He's infantilizing you. You're not allowed to do this. You have to do that. Or you're having to step into a mother role to manage him when he's drunk or going out too late, or like doing his own infantilized things. And neither of those roles are sexy. Like, like I imagine their sex is terrible right now because, like, those are not sexy roles for her to have to be in. They couldn't make her feel sexy or wanted and him calling her a fucking bitch or whatever like that couldn't make her feel good about herself. We can totally understand why this relationship has, like, destroyed her sense of self and her self esteem. And I feel for. I mean, and so I definitely agree with that. So what would you do with Vanderpump Rules if you were if you were queen of Bravo? Amy, how would you want to see a new Vanderpump Rules structured? Hmm. Well, it's kind of a wild take that. Comes from a lot of thought about this, unfortunately. I think the roles as a show is done. I don't think Lisa Vanderpump's restaurants in West Hollywood are places that people go anymore. I mean, we live here. It's not like Sur is a hotspot anymore. Pump closed. TomTom is a fun place to bring friends. Like when new friends in town who love Bravo. We all bring them there and you get to maybe see Tom Schwartz, Tom's Metal. I don't think people really want to see it. And I've been there. I've met them both working on the show and, like, love them. But at this point, it's like, Oh, yeah, I know Amy is in a lot of the B-roll for when TomTom opened and then we're doing glamor shots. Do you watch some of those old episodes? You'll see Amy in the background. That's the perks of having, you know, working this industry friends who are DPS and need to need someone to stand in and dress up cute for the day and you get free drinks when you do it. So on that note, yeah, I just think even Lisa, I mean, God bless her in a lot of ways, but I as a whole do not really care about her like restaurant industry anymore. I know she has the new place in Tahoe, but it feels like this show. I'm not saying that they have to like. Cancel it which TBD they might and we really don't know it's not on it on the the schedule yet of of coming next they also like the way that they film the show filming it during the summer in L.A. It's like summer is not the time you want to be here filming stuff like it's hot as hell, which is also I'm like, The Valley. Better not put those kids through that again this summer. Filming. They're filming now in the Valley and it's 120 degrees. So that'll be Jack. They'll be at Bull Jack thing. But I think we you know, we went to Jack's together a couple of months ago and in March and like, it was great. That's when like L.A. is normal and you can, like, live a real life here and show, like, the cool, fun stuff about it. It's not happening in Valley Village in 110 degrees in August. But I aside from all that, I just think what Bravo needs to do is really on all of these shows. But specifically, Vanderpump just reframe the objective here, like what are people want to watch? We're we've gone through a lot of shit in the last couple of years. I for sure do not want to sit down and watch someone like Sina from Gaza cry about hurting me like it just gives me no problem, as does the it's not giving. It feels stale. You know, again, these are all real people. And as a producer, I love them all. When you're with them in person, you know, it's like you love them like they are real people. They're it's so not black and white, so not good or bad. But from the Vanderpump perspective, it's like we've seen all of the things fall. We've, you know, it's, it's reached its peak and once the Rachael of it all Sandoval like they cannot they're not no one's going to like who new people they bring in so like if they're going to bring in a new crew of people they're at sur sure that's interesting. But there's also 25 restaurants here in L.A. where you have like a really cool young staff, amazing chefs. Like there's such good young chefs here in L.A., like somewhere downtown where you get, like a real high end or like cool side of L.A. and the real time scene stuff that's happening like that is not happening at Sur on Robertson Boulevard anymore. Like it's really not. Well, anyone working there is doing it also for the fame or the attention. Like they're not going to be authentically like I'm just a waiter trying to like they are a waiter trying to make it. But like even I think what we saw with la la, she was cast on that show. Like she came on because production hired her and she became a hostess. She was not authentically working at Sur. Right? She wasn't hired as a hostess. Yeah. She was not like I'm here, just a hostess. Guys know the production cast out and said, You're the new hostess, stir up some stuff and that's what you're seeing as our role. She's been the agent of production. She's been stirring the pot and showing up and doing her job. Her job was not hostessing. Her job was being on Vanderpump Rules, but her job is void. Now. It's not interesting anymore, but that's what I'm saying, because she never was authentically just on the show because she was friends with them and in-jokes. It doesn't work. But yeah, I mean, I am interested. Like Dubai Housewives. I love Dubai Housewives right now. I think it's like it's fun there in the desert. Caroline Stanbury is a fave. They're fighting about beyond, say, I'm in on it, but the ratings are just not at the level of Vanderpump rules like the ratings of last season on Vanderpump Rules was crazy. So yeah, drop insanely by the ends. Like the second and third part of the reunion were like the lowest that they'd been that whole season because it just happened. It's happening is like I mean, I watched the first part of the reunion for Vanderpump with a friend and we both sat there like, Are you kidding me? Like, we're about to watch a woman, Ariana, who went through something really, really, really hard in her personal life last year, and she was open about it on camera. She's not someone who's like, la la, who jumps you, flies off the chain all the time. Like that is truly not her personality. Yeah, she studied theater. She's an actress. That's why she's in L.A., like, and she has talent for that. I'm sure she had an amazing therapist. I'm sure she's doing all the work to stand up with our head held high and show up to film. When she's being asked to share her life, she brought her new boyfriend show up to a group event. She showed up to events with this guy, and that still wasn't enough for everyone. And it still ended up being, again, even with Andy Cohen moderating, saying like, let's eviscerate Arianna for for what? Like, it's all very. Like certain people on the cast who aren't authentic ever deciding what. Is important to the show in a way that is not for the audience. So the kind of backwardness of it, I think. I don't see that show even coming back in a good way with the audience because like that, watching Andy not stop people from like screaming at Arianna and Katie and saying like, you know, something about her is nothing about her. Like, Yeah, we've heard you say that five times already, Lala, in different recordings. We get it. I just think like that show it's it's done I think. What they should do is focus on a new, you know, keep it like young and thriving in Los Angeles, something like. Behind. it's an industry town, but there's so much other stuff happening. If they want to keep it in restaurants, go somewhere else. It's just it's it's done. So that's my my advice. And I'm sure this is what the conversations are happening at Bravo. they're going to barrel through. I actually think the opposite dissenting opinion. I actually think the opposite doesn't mean you agree with it. Well, I think the conversations are happening. I agree all that. But I think the business minded people at Bravo are looking at the ratings and they don't care. They're going to the creatives and they're like, make it work. We need something with Vanderpump Rules in the name also because this is kind of a thing that you see more a few years ago than now. But DVR, a lot of people have it just saved. Like I record everything, VCR or record everything under this title. And so you'll see a lot. MTV used to do this when we worked there. They would put a lot of things under. Teen Mom, you know, so-and-so story. Just to whoever was on DVR, it would automatically record. So I think the business people are sitting there saying all great creatives that you want to do something amazing, but I need something under Vanderpump Rules Banner because that's what's going to make money and that's what advertisers want to pay for. So, yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying about the conversations. I just I think it will come back. I think it won't be great, but it will make money and that's all that they care about. Well, I think it's interesting because to me, the I felt very connected to Lala and I mean to Katie and Ariana this season, because I feel like they did show the arc that I was kind of talking about earlier, about like how we want to see people grow and change. And I feel like they're people who learned about boundaries, who learned about like what kind of friendships, what they want, what they're allowed to share. And we saw them like assert themselves. And it wasn't always interesting TV in the sense of what we're used to, but to me it was really interesting in this like I do want to see people grow and change and I think, it's very hard to read into Lala psychologically because I feel like, I don't know. Mm. I don't feel like I know her and I think that's why I'm not interested in her on TV. I think that's why whenever she's on I get like icky feeling because I don't feel like I know her. I feel like everything. Like Jenny said, she's an industry plant. She was kind of put in there to, like, create some drama, but we never really got to know her She gatekeepers everything about her life. And then we get to see the warm and fluffy is like her family, right? Like we get to see these things that, like, are shown to show her in a good light and then accuses Arianna of like the same thing. Right? She enthuses, everyone else of not being real, but like I feel like I know them a whole lot more than I know Lala. And I think it's really hard to go deeper into who she is as a person or like what I mean, what motivates her. I think she wants to be famous and I think she wants to make money in this famous way. But other than that, I don't feel like I know her. Like we know that her dad died and she had like a big reaction to that. And I guess it was nice to feel like we got some insight into it, but even that it was like we just saw like what she wanted us to see the tough girl, right? And then talking about her dad dying only in moments when, like, people ask her to be accountable for like what she's why she behaving a certain way. And so we really like I don't know why her and her dad were so close. I feel like she doesn't ever take us deeper into who she is and what she feels. I think all we ever get is either like la la or like hard la la. And both of those feel like facades. Totally. I totally agree. And like, she goes around like she hasn't. And this is what I think Bravo has to figure out next season like Ariana has. Figured this out better than I think any other reality character that I can think of in history. She used her opportunity and she said this herself, like her main goal after scandal broke was Let me do whatever I can to make the money to support my mom, my brother and myself. Like she's like I struggled with money before I came out here with ambition. And I know I have talent, but like, money is very important right now to secure. And she not only did that with every brand deal she did, she took it. She took it and hit the ball rolling and. Then she's now becoming this elevated version of not just herself, but of a reality star. And not only that, but she took all those opportunities and all that money without putting all the rest of the cast down on like Lola and Sheena, who the way they make money is by going on their podcast and yapping their mouths about everyone else. That is not what what Ariana did. And my insight is, I know that Ariana is probably the most genuine and professional. Like, first of all, reality star. She's professional. She shows up when she's supposed to film. She knows what beats. She has to hit. She doesn't. She talks. She communicates with the team. But she also, as a human, is like the most genuine person that I think exists in L.A.. I have a lot of friends who are friends with her, not even close friends. She texts people out of the blue all the time. She remembers people's birthdays. She'll dm people for anything she invites. People she hasn't talked to in years, to comes to something about her to come visit. She'll tell them the time to come if they want to like skip the line like she does that not out of this. And she's always been this way. She's like a cool girl. She was fucking born cool, you know, like, she really is. And she's who you want as a friend. So the fact that, like what they did this season by trying to make it seem like she is something that she's first of all not and then like that it became the narrative to show that she had done something wrong and Katie had done something wrong who I think killed it this season. Like so proud of that girl. She lost that freaking £190 weight for sure and is thriving. And it's as a woman for me, I'm like, this is amazing. It's inspiring. This is where me and Jenny, this is the one thing I feel like me and Jenny Butt heads on is this. I've been a Katie fan from day one because I get her. I got this. Yeah, I get that. Like I think she is on our podcast. She calls it Black Cat Energy because I feel like I have it a little bit myself where it's like you're not the most approachable person. You tend to like, have a darker, more difficult energy that you bring into spaces. And I feel like she and she had Tom who was like, I don't know, whatever the opposite of black energy is. Like he's like, he thinks he's like a laboratory energy or whatever, you know? And though it was easy to see them in this black and white light of like, she's the bad one, he's the good one. And I think as their breakup came to be seen and we see her after the breakup, we're like, oh, wait. Like he was bringing her down. He was I think finally the fans started to see that, like, oh, this isn't like Katie's a bad guy. This is like this guy brought out the worst parts of her. Mm. My question for you, Amy, is why do you think production came after Arianna so hard? Good question. I wish I knew. Patriarchy. Patriarchy. I mean, you're really onto something. There's. There's a. And this is happening across the board in television, in in our industry as a whole, in film. And that's why not to go to industry. Yeah, but it's on fire. The industry is on fire just in case anyone wanted to know. There have been strikes you might hear and people might think like, Oh, Netflix doesn't have anything good now because of the strikes. Like, there is a narrative that's spun by insider trades billionaires who are by white men, white men. Yet, I mean, look at just a photo of all the people who are running every network that keeps conglomerates together. And you'll see a couple common themes and what is really happening. I think there's just such a a disassociation between the people who are at the top. And this is really the real reality. We have just a couple people at the top who their only goal is to slash budgets, slash production budgets, downsize every single company. And so they're doing that and treating it like a finance company, like a bank, like a, you know, an airline, like they're treating like creative industries, like it's something that needs to be contained to the lowest possible amount of money. And it's like not only does that destroy the ability for creators to create, but it's really having an effect on every single network, every streaming company, the movie theaters. Like it's destroying people's whole lives, careers, because there is no sense of like, the reason we have entertainment is to make people entertained. We have this opportunity with a creative world to give something to audiences. Like people go to the movies still. I mean, I know not as often, but like you go to dissociate for for 2 hours, you turn on a movie with whoever to just relax, to decompress. At the end of the day, we're staring at computers all day at work. It's not always you know, I get that they're saying like, well, kids don't want to like look at, you know, they're not watching TV or they're not like watching these movies, but they still need entertainment. And if we treat everything like it has to be like, how can we make TV like a tick tock? Like, that doesn't work. That's not going to sustain reality because even tick tock, if that's what all the kids are watching right now, yeah, that's fine. When I was 16, I wasn't watching TV either. I was on, you know, like I was having fun and, like, living my life and and on, you know, aim or whatever. Like, oh, eight days we have. And also they also gave kids stuff like we had music, we had like pop punk. Like we have the best stuff that was catered to kids our age and movies, TV shows, The O.C. You had Gossip Girl, you know, we had channels that were devoted, like MTV back in the day, had shows that were made for us. They're not doing that anymore. And I get it's that they're saying, like, well, no one's watching it. And so we need to slash budgets. But what that's doing is it's closing the door for any innovation in any of this, and it's making humans human beings. And I want to hear your thoughts on this, Sam, but like, it's truly, I think, affecting human beings because. It's not healthy to scroll on a streaming service looking for something you want to watch. If we're on Tik Tok aimlessly, I think everyone has low grade A now, but let Sam answer that. Yeah, I think in general, like scientifically I don't know enough about it. I'm not a psychologist. Which would, I guess be someone who is more prepared to answer these questions. But I'm thinking about just like the way social media or even scrolling and all this content creates higher and higher stimulus reserve in you that you need more and more stimulation in order to feel satisfied. And so that's why people get into like TikTok holes or like these different, like social media holes because they're just continuing to look to fill those, like, pleasure receptors in the brain. And when you turn it off, you start to feel anxiety because there's like those pleasure receptors are like, I need something, I need something, I need something. And I don't know all of like the neuroscience behind it, but on a basic level it's like really about those like pleasure receptors. And then I think there's like bigger implications of like social media on like young girls and young boys and like the influence it has on them around like body image and self esteem and like what, you know, what you're putting out there and how it's out there forever. Like, I think about when I was a kid, like we used to have like random chat rooms that me and my friend would go into and just start like we just like chat with people. But it didn't last. Like, you know, like whatever we said in those chat rooms is gone. There's no we're about to serve you something that are gone. Like those things aren't forever. We're now it's like anything you put out there is there forever. And we see it really affecting people like even like Vanderpump Rules, like Max and whatever his name who got fired because they found racist tweets like this stuff is forever. And I think to ask a anyone under the age of like 30 to be as mindful as they need to be about what they're putting on the Internet is not a realistic thing. And basically, we can probably find something bad on anyone who had like who was in their twenties when Twitter came out, like, oh, and I think this is a great way to pivot into our last topic, which was the Bravo fandom, which has been causing a lot of problems. I mean, for Bravo, for the fans, for Instagram, for my feed, for me personally is, you know, right now Vanderpump Rules Summer House created so much in the comment section, they're rebuilding those shows. Jersey which I honestly can't even dove into the Jersey Housewives blogger feud. Whatever I can bear, I can't even dove into it. Basically, Jen Aydin, I guess, was giving free screeners to bloggers to support her is the 10% I could consume of that drama. And then obviously on Salt Lake City. Monica reality volunteers. Why does that feel like it was a year or forever ago? Was like a slightly only a couple of months ago. where do you think, Amy, that the Bravo fandom is, taking the network or taking these shows in a good direction or not? Yeah, that's such a good question. as a producer, my job, I feel like, has always been to to know what everyone is talking about, to be hyper aware of what the audience is saying, where are the common themes where people like feeling like sympathy, where people are hating on? Because it's important to know as you're making these shows and as you're dealing with real people in reality like. Getting them to open up about things that people are saying, like LA is super authentic. What I would be doing is walking in there next season and saying like, Lala, we need to see your real whole life right now. We have to change it up and see your authentic life. Or like, this is not a story worth exploring anymore. So on that note, I just think there is a sense of like. The fandom is in like in every sphere of our world now. So hyper black and white on absolutely everything that it's becoming hard to manage what to even do with it all. And I think that's where specifically Bravo's at is they keep trying to keep up with what the audience is asking for, but because of reasons we've discussed before, like the people making the decisions, also aren't as aware of what those real feelings are like. They might hear it, but they're going to say like, Well, who cares? Because our ratings on this episode were so high for this character, so we are going to just keep going down that road. I mean, that's what happened with Jersey. Basically, everybody online was like, Teresa and Melissa should not be on the show together anymore. And Bravo was like, We got the best ratings on that season of Jersey ever, so we're going to keep the same cast together, and they're going to have to figure it out. And we're seeing a terrible season now because of that. Yeah. And I think exactly. It's like, what the idea of forcing Melissa and Teresa to be in rooms together is what's taking away from the authenticity of these shows. And it's making people maybe they are watching it and having it on, but the audience is not engaged in a good way when you're. Putting people Ariana and Tom Sandoval. Theresa and Melissa. this doesn't make sense. And so if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't feel real. And if it doesn't feel real, what's the point of watching it? I understand that the audience that is engaged, the fandom is in a real like black and white space of we. They feel like they have to be making these huge decisions. And like if you go on Reddit threads, I mean, it's like thousands and thousands of comments and you know, you get super downvoted if that week you're like, well, Ariana should have shown up at this thing and talked to Tom. Like you get downvoted if like you disagree with what everyone's saying or like, you know, on Love Island, which is killing it this season, the sense of like, what are you guys doing wrong that day? The next day it changes. But the fans are like, you know, clawing at it as like this is we need to be saying this is what right, what's right and what's wrong. And if you're not on that side, you are just mentally unwell or something and you also need villains on these shows. But it's interesting because one of the reasons I wanted to do this episode, dissenting opinions, is because I feel like, you know, so often I get into conversations with friends, even you, Amy, where we disagree on something or, you know, I'm like, I understand Lala. She's not really making me mad, but she's making you really upset. And I think I've gotten into these conversations and people feel very uncomfortable, like I've had friends be like, I love you, it's totally cool. And I'm like, Well, yeah, it's really cool. We're fighting about Vanderpump Rules like this could be in our actual relationship or our lives, and I do want the fans to be okay to argue with their girlfriends and let's hash out the gossip together, like, and let's continue having fun doing that. But you know what I think why it gets so intense like this is because we all see a little bit of ourselves in these people. And so when it feels like someone is on the other side, it can start to feel like that person then doesn't like you. It's sort of like, And obviously I don't think this is like a cognitive process that people go through where they're like thinking these words that I'm saying. But I think there's an underlying feeling of like, Oh, that person doesn't like them. Is it that they don't like these parts of me that I see myself in that person? Because I can feel that in myself, like again, going back to like Katie Like when you don't like Katie, I'm like, Oh, but that means she doesn't like me because I really see a part of myself in Katie. And like, does that mean it starts to feel more personal than I think it is? So like when you say like we're just talking about Vanderpump Rules, it's not a big deal. It's like, well, that's what we love about these shows. That's why we get so invested in them is because we like do get connected to like a sense of our own humanity and their humanity. And it all gets intertwined into this, especially the more years it goes on, the more time you watch. You really get invested in these people. They feel like your friends, they feel like parts of you. And so it does, I think, start to feel bigger and more intense. I think it kind of goes back to like something I was saying earlier about like we have a hard time as people in general, like seeing Gray's. And so we want to kind of clock people as either good or bad. And so I see that play special. I think we saw it like so strongly in this whole Karl Lindsay thing where everyone was posting like this week's episode. Whose team are you on? Call Lindsay. No, no other option available. Like there was no sense of like you could just be in a group of like these two people are toxic to each other. Yeah. And I mean, I want to say and I know Amy came into the industry shortly after me as someone who was a fan of early VH1 reality shows, I'm talking Flavor Flav. I love New York. So when I came into this industry, it was very much reality TV as trash, And I never felt that way. I always really believed in unscripted TV. I believed it tapped into raw humanity of people, and investing in them and following their real lives. And now, you know, 15 years out, I'm just so mind blown with the fandom and the people who really are invested and keep watching and start podcasts and, you know, start Instagram accounts and go to Bravocon. It kind of gives me a little bit validation for all the people who tried to crap on my job. And I just want to say like, if you we're bigger and stronger than you. I went on Netflix this weekend and looked at their top ten and five out of the top ten were unscripted hour documentary television shows. So anyone who tried to say that unscripted wasn't going to make it. Not only did we make it, we're thriving and we're actually probably stronger than scripted right now. So if you that was my little f you know, I love hearing both of you guys talk from your perspectives. It's amazing. Sam, you're so good at what you do clearly, because I think you're so right that it is like we all have these personal reactions and it is something that like, I would have came from being a journalist first and doing documentaries and like, that's a place where you don't. Cater to the audience at all. So what has this kind of new age? It used to be for a hundred years, Hollywood was scripted content. Documentaries were where you got to kind of dove deep and maybe learn something And they were kind of like indie. Like it's like, Oh, if you're watching a documentary, you're doing something like independent. Like, they weren't like, Mm. And documentaries, you know, like even going and actually I want to say like Michael Moore probably changed that wasn't me. The first one who came out and was like, I'm having an opinion and I'm going to be in it and be crazy. I wouldn't say Michael Moore's the first isn't, but I do think that like, yeah, the like maybe the most popular though he and Morgan Spurlock really made it more mainstream to go to the movies, to go see a documentary at like AMC or whatever. Yeah. I think for them to be part of it and then for them to have opinions because it used to be very much like front line. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that. But this is like what kind of to bring it all together, the sense of like entertainment. The audience just has to take a step back. If you're spending over an hour and I feel like there are people who genuinely are spending most of their day discussing, arguing or like thinking about these realities I feel shamed at this moment. It's like you pretty much just pass, which I'm proud of. Like, I have no shame it. Sam I have a sense of shame because she has no real ability to sell books. You are an expert at this. But like there is a sense of like, I mean, just more engaging in the negativity of it all. It's the same as this election, you know? Yeah. Everyone has a pit in their stomach. Yes, I saw that earlier and I can't remember which one, but I like so much about this feels so parallel to how our government system and like the electoral systems are set up between like you're either a Republican or a Democrat. There's no way you could agree with some parts of one side without, like, being the enemy. Yeah. Yeah. And it's instilled this fear in the majority of people that you have to have an opinion on something that's either right or wrong. So. You know, I can't imagine this, but if someone if someone is on Team Trump not to bring that name and I feel like just as an example, how dare she you're not going to be changed by much. So it's the same in this kind of braavos here where it's like, my only advice is for the networks to really look and say, like, our job is entertainment. There is no precedent for real people living their lives in front of a camera and a dedicated audience for this long. This has never happened before. We've you know, Housewives will be on TV for 15 years there. There's no examples that we can even work on from this. Psychologically, I cannot even imagine what that's doing to the cast members, the producers and the audience. You know, it's just this very new thing. I really think we all just need to take a step back and remember why we're here. You know, like, well, that's where we love. Like, for me, I fucking loved that. Real girlfriends of Paris. Yeah. Like, there was something so fresh and so light, and I just. I was so sad it didn't come back or something. Like family karma, like those. They were so light and so fun and so fresh. And it didn't. I think it feels like there's two things that are happening. There's like people who've been on too long. And so there is this intense like way they feel like they need to create a story or protect themselves in ways that feels like, okay. Like like someone like Kyle Richards, who it feels like, okay, she's like hiding now, like parts of herself because she can't show herself in a certain way. And it's like, you're too professional a reality star now, I'm not that interested or a lot of these like really new people who come in and someone like Danielle and Real Housewives of New Jersey where it feels like she's coming in with a real objective that doesn't again, doesn't feel natural and doesn't feel like don't feel like I'm getting to know these people. And that's at the core. I think that's what we love about it, is when it feels real and when the drama feels real. Like if we go back to the original, you know, Vanderpump Rules, the first couple of years, what we loved is like they were so messy and had it out there and it just felt so natural. But yeah, I think these smaller shows, they need to give them more of a chance, like give another season. But the money always comes involved. So give producers more money. Yeah. Start there. And also, like, there's a lot of money at the top that needs to be allocated way differently. Give it into the hands of the creators, like stop making it seem like we're not in a place anymore where like, if you're a producer, you're doing it for I mean, we're doing it for the love of it, but this is now and we need a paycheck to paycheck. Love isn't going to pay the bills. We need benefits. This is a real job that many thousands, hundreds of thousands of people as creatives, you know, have been able to make a real career out of this. One of the questions that was sitting really heavily with me that feels like it relates to this is the way like social media and then all the bravolebrity podcasts, like how do you feel like because it feels a little what drives some of the motives for a lot of people in reality TV is like, how can I find other ways to make money? And so we have like Danielle with her bougie kids or we have Lala on her podcast or we have Lindsay and her clear of but like if I have to see another Boujee kids event, I will jump off a cliff. So I guess I wonder like, do we feel like social media adds to the show? Does it take away does all these bravolebrity podcasts where they're either talking about or bringing in information or even keeping information for the podcast? Ala Robin on Real Housewives of Potomac. Like, is that helpful? Does it does it help to drive story? Does it does it confused? Or does it make it harder for you guys as producers to have all this like outside content, but then you have to kind of like contend with in order to make it all makes sense Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's again, like it's important to know what people care about and where they're that, what they're connecting to the characters and the storylines. But. we aren't even seeing the women on housewives have real jobs anymore. That's so not like I want to see people who are, you know, maybe like a doctor who are teachers, who, like, have interesting lives. And even if we can't film exactly in there, you know, whatever or, like, something that just like. Like Nicole. Nicole on Miami is a guy. And I actually think Miami is one of the better, like, really the best right now produced and I my fear is that and I feel like I'm already seeing this that Miami they're like they don't even have it on the schedule of when it will be. In production next, which is so insane to me because put the money where shows have room to grow. Where you have people who are interesting dynamic who aren't just a reality TV character. Like, put real people in these situations or don't have a season every, you know, every single year. Like, take a pause. Take a pause on all the things that aren't working. Don't just put it out there because it's giving this fatigue to everyone and upping, I think, all of our adrenal levels too. Like, you know, your blood pressure is like boiling because you're like, why am I watching this? But like, I feel like I have to. But it's making me absolutely miserable because this situation is like stressful, stressful and not something any person we know in real life would put themselves in. Know. And we get it. These people are here for a job. I support every person who, like, opens up their lives on camera. The women who do this and make a living for their families. It's amazing. But that's not what. To me as a journalist first, any of this is about like this is supposed to be entertainment and we just have to get back into that. Like, it's not just like churning out people to give, you know, the Internet something to argue over. And like, you know, people like it's like this Taylor Swift of it all. Like, people are breaking up friendships because of someone's opinion on one song or, you know, it's this like everyone needs to just chill But also, yeah, it also feels like it got it got so dark and it would be nice to have more real girlfriends. A pair of lighter shows in between to give us this band's breather. Yeah, because I really like what you said about like the adrenal like our cortisol is like our nervous systems are now getting used to the intensity of drama that kind of like started with yeah, I mean I probably started before scannable but it feel like that's where it peaked and now it's like that level of drama is expected. Otherwise nothing. And I feel like that is not good for us as people to hold that as the expectation Yeah. And I and I think for the cast members, the advice I would give is like, don't leak, You see Beverly Hills, how chaotic and crazy that season was. Because let's be honest, Renner was making all of that stuff that happened with Kathy Hilton, and if it wasn't her, it was her people or Erica's people. But the heart of where all that stuff was getting out was not production. Because you sign ironclad NDA, those producers are not risking their job to. No one's risking their jobs because we're making like a quarter of what Lisa Rinna makes like even less, not even like pennies compared to Lisa Rinna. She is the one leaking that stuff. So no, she was gone. How much more interesting was that season? Because we didn't see all the leaks with Lindsay. I get why she wanted to come out in the press and give her side of the story. But honestly, how much better would the ratings have been if Lindsay had just you'd heard they broke up and you heard nothing and you came into that season hearing nothing like Lindsay could still do her press tour afterwards and give her side of the story. I really feel no, but she needed to do it before otherwise. Like if people saw that without her. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. But I'm saying, like, the Danielle's in the boogie kids, like, and I guess she didn't leak it. I mean, it was obvious in the show Gen eight and leaked the whole altercation that they recently got into on Jersey Housewives but not leaking stuff makes the show more interesting and people want to watch it more. Do not leak stuff that it's just that simple. I also think that they have contracts where they're not supposed to leak things either, but they still do. You know, I also think that, like, there needs to be less podcasting. like la la la, like just every week. Like it was like at a certain point I was like, I don't like la la, you need to stop. You're digging your hole deeper for yourself, and it's not adding anything. Yeah, yeah, I sina too. I just feel like there's so many and two peas in a pod. Like, I just think there's so many. Like, we don't need all of their podcast, their Instagram leaks. We, I think it kind of ruins the magic of it. Mhm. Yeah. I learned more about Ariana and her history and her relationship with Tom from Call Her Daddy Than I did from how many seasons of Vanderpump Rules, which I appreciated her doing, and it was a really interesting podcast, but it's like, Can you just do that on the show? But it makes you think that the producers of that show weren't doing a good enough job bringing it out of her. Yeah, that's true. And I think I know I think we just Jenni and I do dissent on this against each other or we disagree on a lot on that because I think the there is something going on there where they're not it's not a safe space for Arianna to talk about herself. You know, like they're clearly in that mess of last season. You know, even focusing on Tom Sandoval for 1/2 is like they've lost the plot here So I fully support like someone like Arianna going after the season's aired and like sharing the the real stuff that was going on. I think that's that's important. But it's like, yeah, call her. Daddy's like the number one in the number one rated podcast in the whole world. That is a platform that can be used for that. But, you know, back in the day, like when we were on Teen Mom, you weren't allowed to say a single thing between seasons. Like, it's not it's it's against all of this. And again, I know I'm saying, like, this is just beyond precedent. Like, we don't have examples to know really what the future looks like here, but it's not doing a service to anyone for the cast to try to try to jump ahead of what they've filmed, I was surprised that Lindsay Hubbard didn't get nicked for that Nick Viall podcast because, you know, in our contract she's not allowed to talk about those things. So I don't know if it's a case of like these stars just know there they're more powerful than Bravo can do anything to them So they go and talk about it. But like I thought that was pretty surprising. So I would like to see an end to I don't mind I guess after it airs or that episode to be on two peas in a pod and Tamar give her $0.02 or whatever. But it doesn't need to be dialed down in my opinion. And just one last thing on I think it was really smart of the Valley to not have a reunion. And I mean, I don't know. Oh, that's a hot dissenting opinion. Yeah, I really think it was smart, because what the reunions have become is this it's the same as these like individual podcast the cast have where everyone is just jumping to like sh throw their like explanation to defend themselves. Yeah. I mean, I am not someone who like, needs to really watch reunions anymore because I feel like I, it's, it's that's not the story we're really here to watch. Like the magic of telling real people's stories, you know, and sharing them with the world is to give insight into different people's lives. Like Sam, you were saying, like to find something in common with people that maybe look different than you. Come from different backgrounds, have different money situations and see them out in the world and maybe learn something or maybe, you know, laugh. Maybe like, see your mom or your brother, your husband and some of these people and like be able to kind of connect more in that. And I think that's the beauty of documentaries and unscripted content and what we try to do in our jobs for Jenny and I is to really like, do that for for the people who are watching. But that's where I think it has to stop. It's like no one is going to continue watching people who are just on these, like it's just too meta, like I'd like to hear the podcast where someone watches it back and is like, Oh, I wish I did this differently or is just like doing some sort of like reflective experience of it instead of just like the defensiveness instead of the explanation instead of like this, like doubling down on some negative behavior. What would I like to meet? That would be a lot more interesting if we had these podcast or if Tamara had people on and said don't defend what you did, but like share what you think that means or like share what you think it felt like as the other person. I'm like, What would happen if someone like made Leila go on and say like, sit and sit in Ariana's shoes? What do you think it felt like for you to tell her? Right. Like no one is making them really reflect in healthy ways. It's all like, hear, defend yourself. Double down on it. Mm hmm. Yeah. I just wanted to say one thing that also, like the Orange County is coming out, the OG of O.C. is the OG of these shows. I think it looks really good. I do wish, though, that Alexis Bellino or Jesus, Jax, if they had just held on tighter to her being with Jon Shannon's ex, like we already know what Shannon's going through. So I have this, like, sense of kind of anxiety of watching now a season where Alexis has this upper hand against someone who's like, We're going to watch Shannon. Fragile. Yeah. Y and it's a fragile situation. So already kind of knowing that that's ahead gives me this kind of like just the ec of of it. And I know not everyone feels that way, but I, it comes back to just like. The production companies, the networks have to make tighter rules, really about what you can reveal, And I would just freaking love to watch like Shannon walk in a room and then Alexis show up and it's like, What? Why is Alexis here? But with my s. Yeah, like her saying, like, I'm now with your your ex, you know, like, that's a great example. And now we're just going to all go into it being like, Oh, when does John show up? And it's like, right. Like he said when he was with Shannon, when he was just like, fight over him for a whole season. Yeah, I don't even think I got, like, a sense of who he was, but. Oh, gosh, we should definitely do one on Shannon, but I definitely want to break down Shannon. Bizarre. Yeah. And just a shout out. You know, somebody had messaged me, Jenny Bruce from Instagram asked for us to do Mercedes and Reza from old school Shahs of Sunset. That's my intro to Bravo. It's Shahs of Sunset. Oh, that's good. And I'm married to a Persian guy, so I told him he had to watch some of the Shahs of Sunset with me to get his hot takes for the episode. So we definitely need to line that up. And I just want to thank Amy for coming on and being our first guest and being willing to put all your opinions out there, knowing you're coming into the lion's den of dissenting opinions. I hope we get was less dissenting than I thought it would be. Yeah, I was. Yeah, I think we we played a little nice today, but that that won't, you know, maybe we need to do another dissenting opinions with some wine involved and see how spicy it actually got through. But I think we gave a good example of how you can disagree with your friends and Bravo opinions about, you know, ending the friendship. And yeah, we look forward to having you again in the future because you had some really hot takes that we really appreciated and we need that. I love being here, Sam. Love hearing your psychological expertize. It makes the whole thing so much more fascinating and engaging. And Jenni, love you. Love you. Long time. Yeah. Sam, do you want to leave the audience since we got into some deep stuff with some advice on how to de feral themselves on the first? Do we have like a disassociating from the fandom? I think that like what everyone should do is after an episode, just take a breath, distance yourself from the television, just take a breath, allow yourself to enjoy it. Remember that, like as much as it's reality, it's also TV and we're supposed to be. I really like what Amy said. We're supposed to be entertained by it. So don't take it so personally. All right. Thanks for tuning in. And we love you guys. Thanks, guys.

Unknown: Bye.