Episode 8: MJ and Reza from Shah's of Sunset

In this episode, TV producer Jenny and therapist Sam dive deep into the tumultuous friendship of MJ and Reza from Bravo's "Shahs of Sunset." We unpack their complex family dynamics, MJ's rivalry with the other women, and the explosive fight over naked Jenga that shattered their bond. Plus, we speculate on their future in reality TV following the cancellation of "Shahs of Sunset." Special thanks to our follower, Jenny Brew, for suggesting this fascinating topic!

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Transcript

Hello. Hello. Are unhinged friends? I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam. I'm a psychotherapist in New York City. We're best friends and bravo superfans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is unhinged and on camera.

Unknown: Welcome back, everyone. Today's episode is really special because it was a request from one of our followers. If you don't follow us on Instagram, it's unhinged and on camera, it's very easy to find. Jenny Brew sent this in. She wanted us to tackle Shahs of Sunset, and she specifically asked if we could go into Reza and Mercedes friendship. So I love this because Shahs of Sunset was my intro into Bravo. It came to be because my husband was like, Oh, I've watched this really weird reality show about these weird people in Beverly Hills who are like, rich and kind of unhinged. And I think it was I want to say it was like during that big hurricane in New York when like people thought the world was going to end and really just like Coney Island sunk. Oh, yes, we like Superstorm Sandy, which is a sunset brought to you by super storm Sandy. I feel like that's what it was. And we were sitting his apartment and like binge watch. Like it was like they must have had it on play on Bravo one day. And we were just like sat and watched it for a couple hours and I was hooked. And it was it's a gateway drug. It is a gateway drug. Well, first of all, I need to break down that your husband, Jake, got you into Bravo. And now he's so deep into it, he can't, like, escape. He must have many, many regrets. But thanks, babe. And I watched Shahs of Sunset years ago. But then when I moved to L.A. during the pandemic, when I was trapped inside by myself for many months, I started rewatching Shahs of Sunset and ironically met my now husband, who is Persian. And I was trying to tell him, I'm rewatching Shahs of Sunset. It's so funny. We met and he was like, I absolutely hate that show does not represent Persians in any way. And I was like, No, no, it's for the good guy to watch it. And he never really watched it. And then on this rewatch, I like, you know, chained him to the bat and made him watch a couple of episodes. And it was actually really good. We had some great conversations and I'm glad we did it. I think Reza and Mercedes are the core of the show. They are the core of this show. I think there are friendships with other people who like feel very important. But the core of the show is Mercedes and Reza. And I just want to say that, like, I think one of the things that makes this show so powerful and so addicting and so unhinged is the true nature of the friendships on it. Like it feels so real, more real than even like something like Vanderpump Rules. Like these people have known each other since childhood. These friendships and connections are deep and raw. And I also think that especially MJ and Reza, I think Mike also did a lot of this, but I know we are not supposed to talk about him because he's definitely canceled and should be canceled. Yeah, there was a domestic violence charge that basically ended Shahs of Sunset. So the show is essentially canceled. Maybe on a hiatus, maybe going to be redone in some form if we're lucky. Yeah, which is a bit surprising. But Mike was part of that really beginning Corke cast, and he really had a friendship with these people like he was. But what I think is really powerful is they really show us their lives in a raw way. they put their trauma out there in a way that feels so connecting and validating and true. And like they are showing us something vulnerable that feels very different than like how we're seeing trauma be brought to us by housewives, which feels a little like trauma. Pawnee Like let me just dump my trauma on you. And if you're not dumping your trauma, then you're not being vulnerable enough. But I'm not actually doing in a way that, like, feels like connecting. Like when someone like Sy and I was dirty. Yeah. On Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. You know how that horrible robbery and then she has been going through this PTSD journey, but it feels very much like, you know, being used for storyline. Like, here's my storyline. My trauma is my storyline. We're like, these people are just like, here's my family. Hmm. Yeah. And I think you asked me a question that was, is it normal? Because watching those older episodes of Shahs of Sunset, it was the like Peak of Bravo where they were getting some of the best realest content And the producers were really putting the storylines together in an authentic way. It doesn't feel like there was any, especially in those first like five seasons. It feels like there's like zero producer, like hands in, like shaping what's happening. It's like, oh, these are just what these friendships look like. Yeah. when you see the later seasons, you see that start to unravel. You definitely see producers becoming more involved, the cast becoming more conscious. They're posting on social media, they're having fights about what they posted on social media. And I think they lost some of that magic from the early seasons. But I think you had asked me, is it normal to have families so on these shows and I have a two part answer to that. Producers will try to follow authentically any story that comes up to the fullest. So if you know MJ is having all these issues with her mom, they're going to pursue getting her. Veena is a cast member like she. And more episodes than than Oscar at this point because she's been on the show longer. And also left but like she is in like in the first and second season which is like what I mostly rewatched. but she's in like. Every other episode. Like she's in a lot of episodes. She has a scene in almost every episode. She pops up in the later seasons too, and you actually see her evolve a lot when Mercedes has her her baby. But so is it normal to have families on? I think if you can get them, it's great. I don't think it makes sense for every show, like some housewives, like if they're very close with their mom. It makes sense. Right. Like Marisol and her mother, we, you know, are happy. But it really depends. Also, I would say in Persian families, there's not a big separation between the younger and older generation as we have in Western culture, I would say. For example, if you were going to have a housewarming party at your house and say you don't have kids and mostly you're going to invite your friends, you wouldn't invite your mom and dad with a mix of your friends who are your age in American culture. I would say in Persian culture, it doesn't matter who's coming, the older generation is going to be there. And that's something that made me feel uncomfortable because, you know, when you're having a housewarming party with people in their thirties and you're drinking and you're making sex jokes and whatever, it's it's a different vibe when the parents yeah I think culturally the U.S. is all about separation and individuation. So it is really about like as you grow into an adult, you start to form your own social groups and your own life that is separate from your parents and I think Persian. And there's a lot of other cultures that are rooted more in enmeshment and families where, you know, a lot of Latino families can be like this. I think a lot of sort of traditional Middle Eastern families can be like this as well, not just Persians. I think we see a lot of Asian families as well, where there is value in in family that is very different than how Americans value family. so jumping off of that, Reza and MJ have a very mirrored experience with their family that I want to Married? Yeah. Opposing. Mm hmm. Right. So in the first, I feel like two seasons we really get a lot of background information about both Reza and MJ's family. That is really interesting and really, I think, speaks to the dynamic we see play out both between them and the different family and different people in their lives, but really specifically between the two of them in their friendship. Yeah. So season one, Reza puts out a lot about his family. We get a scene with his mom and then we get an epic sort of confrontation with his dad. So his parents escaped Iran during the revolution. This is when the Western backed king, the shah was toppled by the regime, the Islamic Republic was formed and a lot of people escaped. Do we know how old he was when he came? He said he was five. And so I don't think he has memories of really living in Iran. I think it's more like bits and pieces. So he's essentially was raised in America, but he's right, you know, so he's raised in American culture by probably a very traditional Iranian family. And so, like, there's going to be a lot of probably conflicts within him in like what he values and what he understand. Like that creates a huge identity fracture, right? To have these sort of like two messaging, both like going to school, especially in Hollywood, like Beverly Hills and Los Angeles, where like there is a specific culture to that. And then probably coming home to what is a more traditional households or whatever that look like. Do we know when his parents split up? That's a bit vague, but I pieced together that they moved over here to Beverly Hills and they were together. He has a sister that we don't ever really see on the show that I know of. And the dad was cheating on his mom seems openly or a lot. And finally the mom had enough and they broke up. And then the dad moved to New York to be with his family and seemingly abandoned Reza completely, or didn't have much a relationship with him at all after that, trying to go back to that identity fracture, I don't want to go too deep into it, but there is also the identity fracture of being like half Muslim and half Jewish and like what that must have caused for him internally and just for his parents. And I know they talk about. A little on the show, how that was a root cause of like their split was around like his father's Jewish family rejecting his mother's Muslim family and that being really a complicated piece of it. And I guess I wonder how that played into the cheating, but we don't really have enough information. Yeah. You know, I want to get into the whole confrontation with the dad because I thought it was really crazy to watch. I mean, I almost feel like the dad used that fracture as an excuse for his cheating because I'm like, I don't see how those two things were even related, to be honest. And especially in this confrontation, it almost seems like he used that to deflect, which was really interesting. But. So M.J. accompanies Raza to go to Little Neck in New York to see his dad. Seemingly years of estrangement before this, and they're going for a Shabbat dinner. Mercedes at that point is being a very supportive friend. So they walk into the house, it's insanely Persian gold everywhere. Antiquities is a little tacky. It was over the top and his cousin greets him. It seems like he's good with the cousins and a lot of the extended family. I remember being very emotional and everyone just being happy to come together. Yeah. And the only tension was with his grandmother, who is seemingly devout Jewish, didn't approve of their the marriage with his dad and his mom. But she is in her eighties and not really saying anything. There's just a lot of cutaways of her looks. And even rewatching it with my husband, he was like, That's just what old people do. They just stare at people. And I was like, Well, Reza's taking it personally, and the editors really utilized every cutaway that they had of this one man. So he pulls his data, but it was impactful because it really like, let us be in the emotion of what it feels like to be rejected by this older generation who, you know, we don't know if like what what she's rejecting in Reza is based on her son and Reza's mother or if it is based on Reza himself as like a gay man. Right. Like there's also this element of he is a gay man in a culture that isn't super accepting of gay people or the LGBTQ community. And it's not really said like what her real issue with Reza is and even with his dad, how much his rejection of Reza is based on like the marriage and his abandonment, or if there's also this element of the rejection continued because Reza's identity doesn't match what like they think it should be. So he brings his dad aside. They go outside and have this conversation. And it's it almost plays like an old school soap opera. They're sitting down and he's saying very typical, like men, right? Like we want to talk about our emotions, but we have not been trained to talk about our emotions. Even I remember when the dads like crying, it's like it looks like it's hard for him to cry until, like, show that level of emotionality on television or to his son or just in front of anyone. Yeah. And speaking to my husband about this, because I saw this a lot play out on Shahs of Sunset. It seems like there's a lot of very explosive, emotional moments. And I have experiences myself with Persians and I'm like, why does it go from nothing to like 100 so fast? And it's almost like if there is a reason somebody initiates, I don't know, some kind of conflict, it seems to open a door to a level of like anger and feelings and explosive, you know, everything. How I hear that from, like, a therapeutic standpoint is that like it is safer and easier for them. And probably like there is this like cultural narrative around expressing anger versus true vulnerability. So that's why things become explosive as opposed to just like really sharing vulnerable emotions. Oh, I totally agree. And and of was saying like culturally my husband's and he grew up in Iran and has lived here for ten years. He was saying culturally in Iran, you know, there is an expectation that you put on a happy face and that you show deference to any gas older generation. It's all about appearance, right? You want to look a certain way. And I hear this a lot. I work with a lot of people coming from South Asian and Middle Eastern countries and a lot of like what I hear these like more Americanized kids go through, like the kids who were brought here really young or were born here, but their parents were born elsewhere, is that their parents have this expectation that like others see them and the family in a certain light that doesn't acknowledge what's actually going on. Oh, definitely. And even in my own relationship, sometimes my husband will be like, Kiku, just have a good time. Can you just put on a happy face so we can have a nice day? And I'm like, That's not a nice day for me. If I'm like, putting on a happy face and not telling you how I really feel, that's not happy for me. That's actually a horrible day. That's probably one of the worst days I can have. I would rather just say how I feel and we resolve it and then we have a happy day. Well, it speaks to how big this interaction between Reza and his dad is, right? Like, it is a big deal that they're doing this in the first place and that they're doing it on television. Yeah. he pulls his dad aside and basically confronts him about cheating on his mom. But the secondary rupture being you, then the reaction to getting a divorce from my mom was to completely abandoned me not even speak to me, not be a parent at all. And how can you excuse that? And the dad is pretty vulnerable in giving him an apology and saying he seems to take accountability. He's just kind of like, you're right, he does. And then somehow the conversation sort of shifts to being about the grandma again and how that rupture of, you know, the grandma not accepting Reza's mom and Reza and, you know, calling them names and that being a core issue. And the dad starts hysterically crying and he's grabbing him. And it's it's one of those very improbable moments where he's like, you don't understand what it was like for me. Put it in the Guggenheim, which you get, like, scenes that belong in, like the art gallery of Bravo. Oh, yeah. And this is definitely one of them. Mercedes is watching through the screen. Glass in the house says they're just, like, grabbing each other and crying. And that's another thing we need, like pictures of people watching other people's conversations on Bravo, like they just had on O.C.. Yes. So. And they're grabbing each other and crying. And it's like it is like a soap opera moment. I will say. Mohsin watch. Mohsin has me watch a lot of Persian, you know, Persian based TV shows and what have you. And I'm watching it. And they're constantly grabbing each other in such an aggressive way and like invading each other's space in such a way that I'm like, What's happening? He's like, Oh, no, this is comedy. I'm like, That guy is grabbing him so aggressively, but there's just a totally different yeah, but I think it goes back to this idea of like, this is easier for us to like express than to really be. And even like when I hear about the dad getting really emotional when he goes into the place of like. There is a defense for him of like, I abandoned you. Yeah, I did all these terrible things. But my mom, she was the root of all of this. And it's like, okay, you just took an accountability, and then there's this, like, but that kind of negates it. But instead of you seeing that, negating it, I'm going to give this over-the-top emotional performance of, like, something that seems vulnerable that I don't know, kind of then feels a little like an act. Yeah, definitely. Because, well, look, looking back on that scene, it's through fresh eyes. How is you cheating on Reza's mom and then subsequently abandoning him? Have anything to do with your your grandma's stink face? Like, I'm sure she has a stink face and had a lot of opinions and judgments. But isn't it on you as an adult to be able to separate those things? And I think that may also speak to a bigger, like cultural difference of like you respect. I think in these cultures you respect your elders in a way that like even if they're wrong, you're not allowed to like say anything or do anything and you're just supposed to like take that in in a really unhealthy way. Yeah. Which we'll get into with MJ and her mom So this big scene happens. Mercedes interrupts at some point and tells Reza you need to hug your dad and really hug him. And she actually says, in my family, we don't hug each other. We don't love each other that way. So I think it's really important in this moment that they hug Reza also. And at some point during this is like my grandma's a big H and I never want to talk to her because we're just so aggressive. But again, we've kind of got into the grandma seems like a scapegoat in all of this but so they do this emotional hug and Mercedes really smoothes everything over. They do this Shabbat dinner and it wraps up. So I really have to applaud MJ in this moment. I mean, she's being an amazing friend, traveling all the way to New York. They almost, in that first season really seem like sister and brother. That's how close they are in their friendship. You really get a sense of that, though, how they have probably played this role of brother sister to each other a long time. Yeah, I want to say one last thing about Reza. It seems to me, because we're going to get into this with Mercedes, that Reza was abandoned by his father and put on a pedestal by his mother as the only male figure. And. Right. I think he may have played like almost like a husband role to his mom, because I know and again, hypothesizing because we don't actually get to see there's I think there's like one or two interactions with his mom throughout the first two seasons. I can't remember later on, but she doesn't play like a key role like Veeder does. We see her once in a while, but I get the sense and what I see pattern wise in these situations where fathers leave and abandon the family and it's sort of a son and a mother or even a daughter and a mother that, like the role the child takes, tends to be of a more parental fate role where they're taking on. And we see this like with Karl in Summer House and his mom, like when there is trauma in the family, roles get really messed up and especially for children, they end up taking on more parental side roles. I think you do see that with Reza because he's really making argument with his dad about the cheating, which is really not his his problem to solve or fracture to fix. I think the bigger fracture is like you abandoned me after that. But with MJ, which will get into her back story, it was almost the reverse in that her dad was very immature with her and you know, was the primary parent. And when her parents got divorced, her mom abandoned her either emotionally or physically. It's it's a little unclear. Well, so what I remember well, let's get into MJ. So basically what we get a lot of information about this history through her like therapy sessions and we get to see into them. She talks about them and basically her therapist tells her that her dad is too attached to her. Her mom is distant. In another therapy episode, she talks about how her mom never felt like she got enough attention from her dad, and that's why she left. They divorced when she was six, and that mom got an apartment nearby, right. So she lived really close by. But MJ lived with her dad, so she grew up with her dad. And so her mom was in her life. But nothing ever changed. Neither her parents remarried. They never they kind of got stuck in whatever that stage of her six year old self and her. And separate. And I think that's really interesting because I think very much MJ has been infantilized both by her father and her mother in different ways, where they treat her like a baby, like until, you know, her father passed away and until I think maybe she had a baby. That's kind of where we see the shift in view, having more respect for MJ. But there's this constant treating her like a child. And I think there's a duality in that in her relationship with Reza, where I think Reza, having been a parent of a child in his family, comes to MJ and gets to be almost like a father mentor guidance figure to her. And even in just like the physicality of them, you see them like Reza is someone who is very like he is dressed and groomed and very like put together in this like superficial way, like even down to like his mustache is always perfectly trimmed and like, everything has to look perfect where MJ is constantly looking like a mess, right? Like she is the baby. Like she's got her hair and knots. She's her clothes never fit right. And she is a beautiful woman, and she just always looks a little bit disheveled. Oh, yeah. When I got married, my greatest fear was MJ on her wedding day when her wedding dress did not fit and look like a hot mess during that entire ceremony. That was my greatest fear. I was like, I don't want, but I think this is part of her that is infantilized, that like it doesn't really I don't think she's ever had to take care of herself in those ways. And because the only way her parents respond to that is like her mom responding through criticism, it's not an effective way of like her getting herself together. And again, we kind of see that and replay between her and Reza, where you see Reza constantly kind of criticizing her and poking at her and trying to like guide her in these like patronizing ways that replay her family dynamics and probably replay his in a lot of ways. Do you know or remember was Vida and Shams? Shams is. MJ's father. Were they some sort of arranged marriage or quickie? Do they explain their backstory at all? Only because it really reminds me of Jan Aiden's parents from New Jersey. Just how angry and bitter Jan Aiden's mom. I would not be. I don't think. I don't think to ever say I don't remember saying anything about that, but it would not surprise me. Yeah. And you actually see on Dubai Housewives. Sarah is dating this, you know, hot model from Germany. And everyone's asking her, did you kiss him? What's your physical relationship? And she gets really angry because she's like, as a muslim woman, I can't kiss him. And everyone's very shocked. I do think that's a bit old school at this point, but. I think even if they did have, you know, love for each other and they got married, the restrictions of what you can do before getting married really puts a limit on your relationship and how close, you can get to that person. And it might have been a situation, too, with Vito where they fell in love in Iran and they got married and then came over to Beverly Hills and she realized, Oh, I don't have to be in this unhappy marriage. I can leave. And that really changed a lot for Rita. But she's she's also really hanging on to a lot of the cultural things from Iran because in and since conflicted by them. Because she likes being a modern woman. She really pushes that on Mercedes like don't get married, don't have kids, just, you know, make money, be successful, And they actually go to see a therapist together. And Vera is saying, in my culture, it's appropriate how I treat Mercedes. And when I was watching it with my husband, I really pushed him. I was like, What does she mean by that? And he was like, you know, in our culture, it's it's more normal to for the older generation to have a status above the younger generation and be kind of like what I was saying about the grandmother. Like there's this like if you are the older person in the relationship, you get to say and do whatever you want and that doesn't get any reproach because her approach would be considered disrespectful or wrong, even if you're being disrespectful and wrong to the younger person. And yeah, he was basically saying that there is just totally different boundaries in that culture. There's just intrinsically but this isn't even boundaries. This is like rules, right? Like because boundaries are moveable. Right. Like boundaries are things that we set and were able to fluctuate back and forth. Like if your boundary is so rigid that it's unchanging, then it is now a rule. And so there's a rule in this culture and in these different families of how the younger generation is allowed to treat the older generation and how the older generation is allowed to treat the younger generation. But it does I do agree to unhealthy boundaries for sure. I do agree that it's a rule in the sense that when I pushed him on it and it was like if that was to happen, say, an older person was really criticizing someone and they didn't like it, what would they do? And he would he was saying they just wouldn't talk to them. They would just separate for a while until they were okay to come back in the situation. And I think I see that reflected in maybe, but I bet you more times than not and he's he probably doesn't want to totally admit this because of maybe his own vulnerabilities is they just take it. Well, I think it's both. It's either you just take it or you separate and there's no gray area. And I mean, I see that in a lot of dynamics even in America, to be honest. I see that in a lot of family dynamics where it's like black or white. It's, you know, either you just take it, you don't say anything or you just completely sever. my guess is in American culture, it is more normal to separate and do that. Then it is in some of these more traditional cultures where when if you do separate, you could get judged or. Criticism from other family members of how dare you not speak to this older family member? How dare you like. I think there is more strict guidelines about like what respect means, at least in my experience of like working with different people from these cultures who would love to split from family members like that, but don't feel they have the ability to because it wouldn't just be splitting from that family member, it would create a bigger divisions within the family system because there's so much more and mesh men in both like the immediate and extended family of it all, where everyone is like more likely to side with the older person than the younger person, and then you're kind of left alone in the dark. My feeling was that this happened to Vera and oh, for sure, for sure it happened to Vida. This is generational. And to be this mother and to Vito's mother's mother like this is something from a long line that is now now that they're in America being confronted because it would have never been confronted before. Yeah. And beat is only affirming. What I'm saying is like she took it and she took it on the chin and kept moving forward. There's no splitting from her mother. There was like, no, my mom talked to me how she wanted. I respected and loved her. And that's just this is what love looks like. Yeah. And I think she's now struggling with that herself because she's very resentful and bitter, you know. And again, there is parallels to me in some ways with Jan Aiden's mom as well, because, you know, whenever you see her on camera, she's just so angry. Well, culturally, I imagine the dynamics and the boundaries and the rules are very similar. What else do we want to get into with M.J.? Yeah, I think it's just important to acknowledge the this sort of, like, triangulation that exists between MJ, her mom and her dad around, like attention and affection and how that then gets paralleled in MJ, his relationship with Reza and any other person who comes into that friend dynamic, we see it with Azhar, we see it with Destiny. They don't really see it with Mike as much. I think there's like I think it is something maybe with women. I also want to mention before we get into that, because I want to go deeper into sort of all these different relationships and triangulation. Just to go back to specifically MJ and her mom, you mentioned that like MJ kind of came into the show not wanting relationships, not wanting to get married, not wanting to have children, wanting to just like party and have fun and that. That feels very rooted in how stuck they were in that initial separation and phase of MJ's mom leaving and never remarrying, never dating. Like you see this whole, like, golf scene where she tries to like, take her mom out to like, kind of like meet men and the mom's just like, no, no, no, no, no. And she's trying to, like, open mom up to the idea. And I think part of that is her wanting to open up the idea that she wants to get married and maybe wants to have a future partnership or feels like she can't if her mom doesn't. And I think there's some like, I'm just trying to, you know, get her mom off her back. And also, I disagree with that. I don't think I totally disagree with that. I don't think that's true at all. I don't think she sees her mom as on her back. I think, again, there's a lot of acceptance and MJ of her mom and in the first season and into the second season making a lot of excuses for her mom's behavior and kind of coming in in. She's like, facing like, oh, shit, I'm making a lot of excuses for my mom's behavior, and this is actually not okay But I think there is an unhealthy attached separation thing, I think, because I think it's either accepting or separating, because in that whole season where they were going to therapy, Vito really hits her hard. Like, I disagree. I think you haven't seen me. You don't call me, you don't make time for me. You don't spend time with the fetus. Like I also went on vacations. I also did this. Like, I think that separation is mutual. Yeah, well, I think anyone in that situation where it's constant conflict, when both sides want a break, like, I would think that's just normal. Of course. Yeah. And I think that MJ is a more Americanized and can take more space. But I don't think the way I hear you say wants to get her off her back. I don't think that's what she's doing. What I think it is, is it is rooted in some unhealthy attachment in which like she feels guilty moving forward with her life, having a healthy relationship and moving on while her mom is still stuck in the old pattern of that separation. I think there's this, like, unhealthy attachment there where she feels like she can't move on relationally and with her life while her mom is still stuck. But we see her the moment she gets engaged to Tammy is when her dad gets sick. And I think her dad getting sick allows her to make that break from that triangle and from that interaction and be like, I'm ready to move on. We get engaged, you know, we have a baby. She's there's something there that she's wanting to help her mom get stuck out of it, but really, it's about her getting unstuck from it. I think the enmeshment piece that I was saying was she feels like before I can meet someone to get married, I have to make sure that my mom goes and gets. Yes, yes. Yeah. That's what I think that's married. But, like, has partnership, has like, I can't have something that my mom doesn't have. Yeah, that's why I'd be happy if my mom. Yeah, I agree with that part. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, get her off my back if she's taking care of her. That different? Yeah, but get off her back. What I meant was more if she's with a man and doing her own life, I agree. Someone can take care of her and then I can go 100%. Yeah, that Which I do think like, ah, in America sometimes that can be, you know, our generation was probably one of the first generations that experienced baby boomer divorce. And, you know, a lot of our moms just being single moms and us feeling like we had to take care of them. But if they got married again, we wouldn't have to. So I relate to that in an American way as well, because I think your mom is going to be very involved in your life unless you you know, she has some separation and she has to do that on her own. But I've seen children, you know, want to pair off their parents to get them off their back. I just think it's important to hold how these, you know, for resin. MJ how where they come from influences sort of how they engage in relationship with each other and then with everyone else and what we see play out and why it's so fucking interesting to see these relationships because we do get the root of why they're behaving the way they're behaving in a way that we don't get in summer house or and you know, we have to make a lot of inferences and these other shows of like, oh, I think this is why we have these little tidbits, but we get the whole play of it here. And we see it with a couple of different cast members. So MJ and Reza are really close. They grew up together and then we see RZA come into the picture and there's a lot of fighting between Reza MJ and Assa really over Reza and then Daniel's. Yeah, and then Destiny comes in, in later seasons, and we sort of see that a bit less because I think MJ and Destiney get along better then I also think MJ has Tommy at this point when we get destiney right, isn't isn't she in relationship with Tommy by the time Destiney comes in that I think her she's less dependent on Reza to fulfill a certain. Roll then. Then in those beginning seasons when all this stuff kind of happens between M.J., Reza and Azhar. So the first season where we see this is really second season where Reza and Azhar are getting close and Mercedes is really jealous. I also think it's really interesting that it's a season and she's going to therapy. She's working on stuff with her mom. Her mom at some point says, I haven't seen you all summer. And she's like, This is the most important summer of my life. She doesn't really qualify that other than I think that she's working on this now. They say healing journey. Her healing journey. Love a healing journey. Yeah, as long as there isn't a healer in it. We love a healing journey, especially when it's with a trained professional. So coming into the reunion of that season, Reza and MJ have had some conflict. But Reza goes nuclear killer on MJ and accused her of being addicted to pills, being a drug addict. you once robbed a bank, your need to go to rehab. And he's just going on and on and on. And Mike even interrupts him and says, If you really feel this way, then you should do this in private or in a more serious way. You're just accusing her of all this crazy stuff. And yeah, Mercedes is a mess, as we've talked about. So I wouldn't be surprised if they're out in Vegas and she did dabble in something, so I'm sure these accusations aren't coming from nowhere. Yeah. And based on what we've seen, we've seen MJ in many, many episodes throughout Shahs of Sunset where she gets really drunk and like I'm thinking of like a bathtub scene. I think, like they, like she's so drunk and like passed out in a bathtub. And there are many scenes where we see, like, different cast members kind of like taking care of her when intoxicated. Yeah. And She's always late. That becomes a constant complaint from her mom and everyone. But again, the infantilized infantilized and and the world allows for even production. They say, like, I can't remember exactly what she says, but she says something of like, everyone thinks it's like kind of cute Like everyone thinks it's cute that I need to be taken care of in this way. Like, it feels like she gets some sort of validation in it, both from like Reza and then from even probably her mom and her dad and all the different people in her life. And it's it's being reinforced. Reza goes nuclear on Mercedes and tells her, you know, you're on drugs, all this stuff. Yeah. It just felt like very extreme. And it doesn't really go anywhere because the next season they make up and they're sort of fine. It is to note that, like, I think at some point in Mike's defense of MJ, he's like, Yeah, she may have problems, but I think it's because of her and her mom's relationship. I remember him saying something like that and he's trying to do this like defense of like, well, yeah, she may have these issues, but like she's also got this fucked up relationship with her mom. And so that must be the root of like why she has to drink. And I think there is something real about that. Like when you have a parent who talks down to you in that way, it affects your self-esteem in the way you feel about yourself. And when you get drunk and do drugs, you feel good, even if it's just momentary, right? This is a way of coping. And so it's like Reza is then playing out the pattern of the mom where it's like, I'm not going to hold any empathy for why you're struggling. I'm just going to kind of call it out in this direct and aggressive way, and you should take it. And she kind of does. She definitely takes it. And also, if his issue was, you're a mess and you're on drugs and you need help, regardless of how he delivers it, he just throws everything and the kitchen sink at her. He's like, you robbed a bank, you know? And Mike is like, that happened. She was 17. And then she has to explain this extremely long story about these Nigerian whatever and it makes no sense. Yeah. And checks and so I think it goes back to you hide everything under the rug and then when you have an excuse like somebody does something to you, you open that rug and you find anything that's been under there for 20 plus years and you will throw it at them until you win the argument. That is definitely what I see sometimes and I just feel like Reza does that quite often where he just won't stop until his point is made and will bring anything that's ever happened. And he's light up. Something that frustrates me, too, is I think if there's a slight against someone. And the reaction is new killer. Whoever started that incident to me is not at fault entirely. If the reaction is so oversize that then they're in the wrong. It goes back to what I said in our podcast about Lindsey and Carl in couples work. if you're constantly worried about being right, then the relation suffers. But I think in this dynamic between Reza and MJ, MJ just accepts that everyone else is right and just accepts that like she's going to be a mess and other people will like it. as long as she doesn't fight against it, they'll accept her. And the pattern gets reinforced over and we see it get reinforced over and over again in relationships and especially in these key relationships with her mom and with Reza. we should get into the big fight that caused their like ultimate ref sort of on the show. well, before we go there, I quickly want to make a note of one thing that I feel like I noticed about MJ, is that it feels like she is way more forgiving of men than she is of women. And the way that she holds, like Gigi or Azhar or like Destiny or these other, like the way she responds to fights with them feels so different. And she's so much more willing to hold on to a grudge with women than men. And I feel like Reza kind of like plays into that a little, like he sees that dynamic and plays into it and is able to kind of like, create. And I'd like, how much of this is for the show or how much of this is just like how their relationship has always been like culturally? It seems like they, they love the drama of it all. And so it feels like how patterned is it for her as a to kind of like bring other women into their relationship, to set MJ off in some way so that he gets to feel like morally superior or write like better about himself. Yeah, I think a good example of that is when Aastha gets pregnant and MJ is really struggling, I think, just with a jealousy feeling because she's already stated she really wants to have a baby. She's with Tommy, but they're engaged or getting engaged and also gets pregnant and she tells everyone it's a miracle baby. And then Mercedes is suspicious and thinks that she did IVF. Reza knows because Azar had told him more about what was going on with the baby situation. So he has this conversation with Mercedes where he kind of drops all these hints so she can put the pieces together. That also didn't have a miracle, baby. She went to a doctor. She got IVF. And throughout the season, Reza's kind of dropping these hints And then when Mercedes confronts Azar, I know you got IVF, and this is like, well, I didn't tell you because I don't trust you, but I told Reza because I trust him. Well, Reza is the one who stirred that whole pot in the first place. So why do you trust him and you don't trust Mercedes? It's interesting, right? Yeah. Well, let's go into then. I don't know if this, like kind of plays into similarly to the big the big fight, right? This is kind of like the friendship ending fight of naked Jenga. Is that what that what the fights over naked Jenga fight is over naked Jenga. I also call it the ten abortions fight because that's really where it crossed the line for me personally. But just to get into the recap. Reza and Adam, in this season, I think it's season eight because it wrapped in season nine. So Reza and Adam, his husband, who's not Persian, are struggling in their relationship. That's clear. A rumor starts going around that Adam was playing strip Jenga with this other Persian gay man named Ali. And it first is introduced. Actually, Destiney goes out to lunch with Ali and he shows him he he shows destiney the text messages and says Adam was sexually harassing me, these text messages. Also, there was this ninja naked Jenga. Then Destiney goes. Meanwhile, MJ is in the hospital giving like giving birth in the most traumatic way to her, her, her, me, her miracle baby. Yeah. So Destiney goes to Reza's housewarming and tells him there's this rumor going around that Adam was cheating on you and doing naked Jenga. And Mercedes knows that's all she says. Then Reza decides he's going to go out with Ali and Destiney and get the full story at the exact same time. Mercedes is giving birth to a child. So he confronts Ali. Ali brings up all these text messages, says his husband is sexually harassing him. Reza was not expecting that. He was expecting him to talk about naked Jenga, which is strange because Jasmine says she was blindsided. But if you look at that first scene, she wasn't blindsided. He told her that. Hmm. So. But we're building another triangle, right? Like, take Adam and Ali out of it. There's this now triangle going on between MJ Reza and Destiney, where Destiney gets more like deference from Reza than MJ ever does. Definitely, because Ali throws out this accusation that I was talking to MJ and she told me there was problems and there really in your relationship, and that's why I should bring this up and somehow it gets all pinned on. MJ But I think underlying all of it is that Ali wanted to be on the show. I think there's a whole production element that's hinted at, but not directly said. Reza says, You know, Ali came to that group of friends. All of a sudden he's at MJ, his bachelorette. He's at this event. He's at this event. And you see flashbacks. And I think it's clear that Ali wanted to be in the show. He wanted a paycheck. He thought by causing this drama, it would get him on the show. It did. Do I paid for it? Probably not, but good luck. Probably not. No. And I think Reza is really mad that it was brought to the show. I think we've seen this a lot on Housewives to where I think it was that season with New Jersey, with Melissa and Jan and Danielle, that this rumor that Melissa cheated was going around. It was already resolved. And then Danielle gets thrown under the bus by bringing it up. So there's a lot of elements within Bravo that I actually hate where there's rumors, are there things happening and there's an agreement with the cast or just a general feeling that we're not going to bring this up on camera because it happened months ago. Robin on Potomac that came up to where she's like, This happened months ago. Why would I bring it up? The shooting windows for these shows are really short, so there are a lot of things happening behind the scenes that doesn't happen within that window of, say, June to September. So I have a feeling that this was going around before and Reza just didn't want it brought up on the show. Maybe some of the reaction does feel really real, like he didn't know about it. But I think when it feels like a contract was violated between him and Adam and him and MJ, like there was probably some unsaid contract about like what we're allowed to talk about, about our relationships and then bringing in this third party who comes in and threatens the relationship. And, you know, I do. I believe naked Jenga happened like probably. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, Adam, funny enough, Adam worked in post-production for the company that makes a show. That's how they met. I think there was probably an unspoken. It's like a teacher. No, he worked. They never say what his job was. But I know feeling he he worked in post-production either as an assistant editor or something like that. He worked in TV, but he was behind the scenes. So. I think there was sort of an agreement of like Adam's a little bit off. He's not a cast member who knows how much he was getting paid, if anything. So maybe at this point he kind of is. Yeah, I think that's a bit unfair. I think you bring your relationship on this show. It's all fair game, right? But there must have been some sort of, like, unsaid contract between him and MJ about, like, what's off limits in our relationships. So in the mix of fighting with Ali, he. He throws a water and tries to punch him. And Destiny is just crying hysterically during all of it. He calls MJ and is starts accusing her of starting this whole thing. And she's like, The doctor is coming in. She's literally in the middle of giving birth and hangs up on her. Turns out she almost died like, you know, very scary birth situation. Yeah. And she had to have a hysterectomy in which Tommy, I thought, was very polite, sent Reza a whole message, updating him. And apparently nobody went to go visit her in the hospital. No one went to go see Shams when he was born. And I think that's a horrible rupture that honestly, I wouldn't forgive. Well, I do think it changed things. I think it really, really changed things for MJ, like she was we see her respond differently to Reza here, where it's not just like, okay, we can go along to get along and eventually we'll get over it and have the good times again. Like for her, this was a serious violation and then it only gets worse, right? Like it only goes deeper at the pool party. Yeah. And I think for Reza, it really hit a childhood trauma. And he does talk about it briefly about his dad cheating and how off limits that is for him. I am curious, but instead of like working through that with Adam and himself, he's projecting it as scapegoating. Right? Like let's go back to grandma and scapegoating. He's scapegoating it onto MJ. Yeah. So I've been really curious if Reza and Adam do have some sort of agreement or open relationship, and maybe it's just that he doesn't want it on camera. And there was some sort of unspoken agreement with MJ. So the whole season, MJ is trying to survive. Reza is fighting this rumor going, she's postpartum. Let's not like she's postpartum. She just had a fucking baby. And as someone who's had a baby before and didn't even have that traumatic of a birth like can't even imagine go like any woman on Bravo who like goes to film within the first two years of having a baby is a hero. Yeah, I think we talked about this with Lindsay being pregnant. It is problematic because you need to give someone who is going through that a lot of deference and MJ was given nothing and thrown under the bus and I think that was very unfair. But she stands up for and made to defend herself in a moment of true vulnerability, hormonal imbalance, like probably not having slept or like not a time that you should have to be defending something that like in the long run is kind of gets only the meaning you put to it. It's a lot of he said she said, Yeah, I'm surprised Reza is taking this naked Jenga thing so far. If he truly believes that Adam didn't do that. They do have some really great raw conversations on camera about it. I'm curious your thoughts on if you think the fact that MJ is having a baby because Reza and Adam also are talking about having a kid So Adam is saying to him right before the naked yang aroma comes out, I don't want to try to have a kid right now. And a lot of that is based on your behavior because you are very protective of our home and our things and you're not realizing the chaos a baby will bring in to that. So I don't want to have a kid with you right now. And then immediately after that, it spirals into the whole naked Jenga thing. And then more recently, Reza said, We agreed to never have kids. But I wonder how much do you think that Mercedes is having a kid plays into that for sure. And I think that it whether they knew in their, like thinking, knowing mind or if it's a felt sense of like this changes things are dynamic is now over as it was because what's really interesting if we go back a little bit like Adam and Reza get engaged or if there's a proposal and is it that Reza kind of ends the proposal, right. And then they decide the next year to get married, which is the same year or the same season. We're looking at it in seasons or years that MJ and Tommy get engaged. And there's something about like how they're moving through life stages and what that sets off and the other person. Yeah, and the fact that Reza, nowhere during all of this really acknowledges that Mercedes is having a baby at the beginning of the of the show, she's just on bed rest. He could have easily gone and visited her or called her and maybe he did. And we just didn't see that. But and then even after she has the baby, I mean, there's this huge rupture that happens. But he doesn't really seem to have a close relationship with shams. And I wonder if that's a disconnect, because they're not moving through life parallel anymore. Well, they're why Reza didn't have a relationship with Shams was he wasn't allowed to meet Shams until he was like two or something because of the stuff that then went down between Reza and Tommy. Right? Like Tommy went and like he was so pissed about. Was it was he pissed about what happened at the pool scene? I can't remember exactly what. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he went and like destroyed their property. Yeah. So let me just recap that. it's half using thing like that whole like timeline was very confusing and wild. Yeah. So that's why I really wanted to rewatch it because I couldn't remember all the details of the naked Jenga fight. To be honest and quickly, I was like, Destiny is getting off scot free here somehow. But so MJ recovers from having shams and Nima actually is the peacemaker is like, come to this pool party, just talk to Reza and it all get resolved. Because in Mimi's mind, this shouldn't be that big of a deal. And he's sort of right. They show up to the pool party, so he's not aware of all of the underlying traumas are connected to like why this fight is so explosive. Yeah. Anyone playing the mediator on the show is never ah. So he brings MJ and immediately Gigi and Reza just have an extreme reaction and Reza sort of runs away and MJ is like, looks, he's just running away. And then Gigi actually comes back and starts confronting MJ about other issues. Reza's freaking out and Mike is like, Just go in there and talk to her. Just go in there and talk to her. So by the time he approaches MJ, she's already getting it from Gigi pretty hard. So then Reza comes up and she's just like, Walk away. Just walk away. I can't right now. I think maybe she was also not expecting that visceral of her reaction, and it was a bit overblown. So then she's like, You just cheat on your husband. You and your husband just cheat. So she throws the accusations first, I will say. But then Reza goes again nucular and starts saying, you had a hysterectomy because you had ten abortions. You're the biggest mess out of anyone. And they're both lobbing the worst things they can imagine each other. And Mike has that great reaction where his eyes are bugging out of his head. He's like, no, dude. Like, you can't say that. So after that, Reza goes on Instagram and posts all this private stuff between him and MJ, some of it being the text messages that Tommy sent about her hysterectomy. There's absolutely no reason that Reza did that. I don't understand. Like I would have to really what he was trying to accomplish with that. Yeah, like, what are you trying to prove? This just like this makes you look bad. So then Tommy sees them calls. Razan says, I'm going to kill you. Shows up with a baseball bat to his house. They're not there. He breaks a bunch of plans. And then Reza and Adam file a restraining order against Tommy, which may be legitimate. He did show up at their house with a baseball bat. MJ is sort of like Tommy was defending me, and I liked that. And that's she's never really had anyone do that, so that must have been really nice. Yeah. So did he do it correctly? No. I mean, he's a real New Yorker. I'm going to show up with a baseball bat and show you where he is. Okay. Tony Soprano. Okay, Tony. So he should probably be on Jersey Housewives. So. Yeah. I mean, going back to the sham. So then Tommy was always like, I don't want because of the restraining order, I think Tommy had had maybe legal problems in the past. I mean, it did cause him a lot of legal problems and eventually dropped the restraining order. And I think there was some other charges involved as well. But Tommy never wanted to meet Chance. But to be honest, from my viewing, it didn't seem like Rizzo cared to see Shams. I never. It wasn't a goal he had used up. Oh, really? Well, I think he was still, like, deep in his feelings. But I do remember there was one scene where he's crying over not having met Shams and how upsetting that is. And I felt for that. Like, I totally get why MJ would side with her husband and father of her child and want to respect his boundaries of like, No, we can't let someone who has an active, like, legal case against me have a relationship with our son. Like and there's something about that that just, like, makes sense whether, like Tommy was right or wrong and like, what he did. I think that there's too much that isn't that's ruptured still to be like, okay, let's just pretend everything's fine and let you meet our son. Yeah. And it's funny, I, I did rewatch that scene where he cries about not meeting shams, and MJ looks amazing in that scene. when she becomes a mom, she gets her look. She starts to look better. She glows up big time. And it goes back to what you're saying. She really becomes an adult when she has. Yeah. Yeah. Shams, I fully agree with. I got chills when he said that. Like I fully agree with that. I think that she emerges into her adulthood. It's funny to rewatching one of the reunions where she decided she wanted to have kids and and he's really grilling Vada. Do you think she'll be a good mom? And Vida's like, I don't know. And so harsh. And my husband was like, she's so mean. And then he's like, I think MJ would make an amazing mom. She would have been an amazing mom. And I was like, No, she does become a mom. She has a kid with this guy. And she really did. She came into her own for sure, It changed the whole dynamic of her relationship with Vida, too. And I think Vida saw her become an adult, and that's why the dynamics of their relationship changed, too, because Vito realized, I can't keep infantilizing this person. I need to treat them with the respect that they're moving through life with. Yeah, it's kind of sad that the show is not on anymore, honestly, because I would be curious to see where she is now in her life when we get a little bit of that on treaters. so the craziest part of the naked Jenga abortion fight, ten abortion fight is that at the end, MJ and Reza sit down at this restaurant, they hash it out and it all kind of gets resolved very easily. But the ruptures that occurred are not easily forgiven, which they shouldn't be. But it's almost like, why didn't you guys just do that from the beginning? I think that what happens at that restaurant is that they realize there's something and I don't know that we see it or it gets explained or if they're even aware of it. But there's like this unconscious or subconscious realization of our relationship is now different and we both need to accept that. Yeah. Because the fight was rooted in how their relationship was. Yeah. Because in the reunion, don't they rehash the whole thing and start fighting again? Mm hmm. which actually wasn't on Peacock. I really wanted to watch it. And it's not currently on Peacock, but it was during the COVID pandemic, I think because of the Mike stuff. I think that's why it's not on there. There must be something around Mike and his relationship in it that they're not comfortable continuing to air. That's my estimation of it. Yeah, it's wild. Looking back on Peacock and seeing I think we dealt with this on Southern Charm. Some episodes that are just gone because of controversial topics. Mm hmm. Which I find interesting that they do that. coming into the final season, I think they're sort of on the outs again. They're still in a recovery mode. Um, but they're in a repair and repair sometimes takes time and is and I think oftentimes their history is like the repair is sort of this like artificial repair where it's like, well, we've apologized, we've swept things under the rug and now like, let's keep moving forward because that's like the cycle that we're used to being in. But I think again, like, MJ emerges into her adulthood and is now a mom and her priorities are different. And I think even Reza is like moving into a more adult phase of his life where he's like, I need to take a step back from interjecting myself. I don't. I have a feeling that MJ has done a lot more growth than Reza has, just because I think in general, like women have to, especially when they have children like your brain just changes. But I think that like they're realizing they're moving into different phases of their own lives. And that means their relationship isn't sustainable in the way that it has been for all those like 30 something, 40 something years. one thing I want to say about this naked Jenga fight, Nima was a bit of a voice of reason in those later seasons, and he gives a good summary where he's like, Reza and MJ are the ultimate pop stars. They come into Mike and Jessica's relationship and stir the pot, try to get involved, spread rumors, then Gigi and her brief relationship with her husband. And I think at some point they bring her the husband's ex to that party. So there's a big flashback of like all the times Reza and MJ have together sort of meddled in everyone's relationships. And then he's like, and now the meddlers have turned on each other and it's like nucular. And there is something interesting I think Reza really needs to show. It's very important to him. And in some ways it's it's important to Mercedes, but I don't see that desperation as much. I think she's more of a mess like you describe, like she just puts it all out there, whereas I think Reza's a little bit more controlled and his need for the show and I think they've always done this meddling in service to the show, which has caused a lot of drama and interesting television. But when it got turned on each other, I think goes back to that unspoken contract. I think we've talked about this too, with Ariana and Sandoval, that they just didn't bring their relationship on the show. I think consciously or unconsciously, these cast members have agreements of what can be talked about and what can't be talked about, and I think that was probably the case with resent. MJ is like our two relationships are off the table, but we can do that to Mike, we can do that to anybody else. I think also MJ gets pretty mad that she can't do that to ACA because ACA doesn't bring her husband on the show or boyfriend, which to me, like fair. MJ Like I feel like if you want to come on reality TV, your life is not is not you can't have be like this. Part of my life is off limits. That's why ACA didn't come back after she had the baby. So, getting into our final questions, the show Shahs of Sunset has been put on pause that like it's a quickly before we even go there, let's talk about the traders of it all just to like make a quick note that both MJ and Reza were on traders. Reza did not make it past the first episode, whereas MJ made it all the way to the end, which is really interesting because MJ does just kind of like put herself out there as she is. And I think people really like that and trust her and feel connected to that. Where I feel like Reza is more measured and more about like putting on appearances and having people see him in a certain way. And I think what we see in traders is like that automatically becomes untrustworthy. Yeah, he got he got knocked pretty quickly and I think he was I think it was the first day. I think it was like the. He was the first. He was the first on that season, and he was pretty mad about it. You saw him doing a lot of press, even though clearly wasn't on the show at all. And now he's doing House of Villains on E! Who is it on now? It might be coming out now or going to be come out. I actually didn't even watch the first season of Villains, but he's going to be on villains And you know, you could tell he's just he's thirsty to be back on TV. I. Well, it's interesting, because MJ was such a sweetheart of traitors. Like, I remember that final episode when Seton-Lasalle had her. The whole world was just like, no. MJ did not deserve that. And we all felt this like. And there's all these, like, twee. There's all that. That whole meme of her and her, like, weird, like, pant outfit where she's just kind of like in the background, like sneaking into conversations and this, like, really authentic and sweet way. And I just feel like we saw this side of MJ that we all were like, Oh, we love her. And I think after that, everyone wanted shots to come back. We're like, We missed her. Like, we're like, I guess we didn't get to see enough of Reza in traitors, but I think so much of that has to do with like he is so much more of like there is a superficial next to him that is harder to feel in connection with than there is look like MJ who is just like unapologetically herself. And I think she's a little less of a mess than she used to be, and that makes her more of like a sweetheart in it. But like, I think we connect with her and I think that they balance each other out in that way where it's like, Oh, he is really kind of like putting on a front and she is this like wild mess that's a little too much. But together they just like, bring this union gang of energy together that feels very balanced and beautiful. Yeah, I mean, I was going to say I liked her better on traders. I, I don't know. It's an interesting I do agree with the yin and yang and I think they do do a good job of completing each other. But I also feel like MJ by herself was stronger to me. I got more sense of her. I liked her. Well, if you are similar to like Teresa, unreal how size are and the real girls the ultimate girls trap where it's like you see this other side that's less pressured to that, less pressured by their family, that's less pressured by the systems of their life. And like you, you took them out of the context and you get to see this like different part of them that's like, sweeter. That's calmer. That's not fueled by drama. Yeah. So where are they? Good for reality TV? I think they put their entire lives out and amazing I think is important. We see like a different culture, we see a different lifestyle, we see a different way. Families and friendships are the good and the bad of that, and I think that is such a good thing to see. And I think if we think about like when this show came out, I don't know the exact year, but like there is a long history of stigmatization of Middle Eastern and people from Islamic cultures as terrorist or as certain terrible things that like this helps people have access to it who maybe wouldn't have access to it because of their negative assumptions. Or like I'm thinking about people who have probably never met someone from a middle Eastern culture or country or like. And they're getting this insight into it in a fun and like, really beautiful way. Yeah. And I think even Gigi talks about this. Some other people talk about how they were conflated with Arabs a lot and not really. It was important to them to show we are a different culture. We're from Iran. This is around the time that I think Andy brings us up in one of the reunions like, oh was the first time we got to see the axis of evil because they went to Turkey and saw the border. And I remember Lilly's like, don't call it that. That's so offensive. And I do think it gave a personal light to that culture in a unique way. Even though a lot of Iranians hate the show. It's also a very specific culture, though it's I don't know if the show is for Iranians. I do think it is for people not from Iran to be able to access a piece of that culture in a way that is fun and light and allows them to feel like they're friends with those people. Well, and I think for Iranians or just in general, it would be really hard for the show to come back because MJ, Mike and Reza come from a very specific generation, which is their parents grew up under Shah. It was a. Very Western society. You know, the shah was a king, so there was palaces and fine art and gold. And that's that's why they came to Beverly Hills, got big houses and get their Rolexes and their gold chains. But then after 79 and the regime takes over, it's a very different culture of people. So a lot of Persians are still coming to L.A.. There is definitely a pool that they could cast from. I just think it would be a very different show because they grow up in a very, totally different culture, totally different government system, rules, laws. And I just don't think that that gaudy Beverly Hills Iran wouldn't be as fun. No. And there are older now, like I think Reza's in his late fifties or so as MJ. If you were going to build a show, say, like New York Housewives got recast, if you going to recast the show. I just don't think you're going to find those kind of. But I feel like I like what they did with, like, family karma. Like, here's a insight into a different culture now. And like, I like this idea or even like Bling Empire, which I know is not on Bravo, is on Netflix, but like being able to go into just like different types of cultural groups in America because I think there are big sects of white America who have no idea and make big assumptions of what that looks like. And I think it is really helpful for us to be able to pull back the curtains and go into that and start to break down stigmas and stereotypes and different ways in which like people make assumptions about groups of people that is really important and vital to our like we are a melting pot. Everybody should be welcome here and we need to make more spaces like that. I agree. It's pretty sad that family karma is on pause right now and I know I've seen casting calls for Iranians living in Canada and Toronto. I don't know if that would really be for Bravo, but MJ and Reza and Gigi shot a pilot that's been talked about. I don't know what's happening with that pilot. It seems like it got shot and went nowhere, which was doesn't happen. I think the three of them are not enough for a show. I think that Bravo is probably struggling to figure out what to do with these three people that are still really popular. Right. Well, I think it goes to like that question of like, is reality TV good for them? I think at the beginning it really was like they really got to do a lot of healing and repair work and I think it like create. I think they are a beautiful example of where you can watch yourself on a show and be able to reflect and take accountability and work on yourself and like. Is that a perfect journey for any of them? No. But like, I think there really has been a lot of that, especially for Reza, Gigi and MJ. I feel like they're three examples of people who we see grow with the show. I think where it becomes a problem for them is their motivation to keep the show going, then motivates them to keep creating drama with each other that doesn't allow them to fully ever heal from like cycles of unhealthy behaviors. Yeah, I think we talked about this last week with Summer House, You were saying you really crave to see that growth and I actually rewatching saw so much growth from MJ. I think MJ has really evolved and I think that was really positive for her. But I agree. I think being locked into this show would cause them to continue meddling, causing drama. I think you see Reza wanting to keep that up more than MJ. Mm hmm. So, yeah, I think it's tough for them to keep being on reality TV and and grow. And I think I personally I do know from the industry those last two seasons of Shah's for production was extremely difficult. I don't know all the ins and outs, but I know that they really struggled to make those last two seasons work. I think for a myriad of issues. But also it's kind of sad you're seeing this on Bravo now. Everyone's becoming too conscious of being on the show. What are they doing? Right. Conscious of storyline. Like that's what you don't feel in those first couple seasons that I didn't. I don't I genuinely didn't feel any of them were trying to create storyline. It felt like they were each just living their lives and it was entertaining and interesting and funny and sad and it's such complex emotions without their having to. Some artificial like this is what my story is going to be. Yeah. And I think as a whole for reality TV, it's becoming a struggle. How do you find authentic? People want to tell their authentic stories. You know, I've been doing deep dives into Sister Wives, and it is fascinating to watch how raw and real those people are. And I think TLC does a better job in some ways of finding those people in caves that don't know reality TV as well. Whereas Bravo, it's all about being flashy and rich and coming from a certain community. So that's going to be harder. Mm hmm. So I don't know. But they did it with, like, a, like a family. Karma felt like a that's why I'm very sad that show's not coming back, because that felt like another one where it felt really authentic, especially the first season, just felt like, Oh, this is so fun and light. And these people are so interesting and getting a glimpse into their culture is so fun. And I think there is something about when the family is present in it in this really like authentic way that is really interesting to us as viewers to be able to see how different families were. Yeah, I wonder on that show if it was just that so many of the cast members were getting married and sort of maturing, which goes back to our point, like, how do you stay on reality TV when you're growing and changing and becoming mature adults and have children and real lives? But I also think that's important. I mean, that's important to show it's okay that they have kids and they have to be home at 9 p.m.. Like, that's still interesting to me and it's also just nice to have breaks from the more intense shows like if every season is a stand of all or a summer house. Lindsay Hubbard. Karl Radtke break up like it, it's going to wear on my nervous system. So do you want to see Mercedes and Reza back on TV and what far form, I guess. I do. I don't know. I think that would be it would be really hard maybe just in some like follow up of like, I don't know, I like I want to see like where they're at. I want to know I want to know where MJ and Vida are. I want to know more about how MJ and Reza's relationship has developed at this point in their lives. I wish Baba did like one off specials, right? Like, like a two hour catch up with the shore's. Kind of like I would be totally into seeing that and just being able, like, I don't know if I want a whole season, but, like, I do kind of want to know where they're at. Like, I loved, you know, even though Reza only got the one one episode, like when traders came, it's like, Oh, I love Reza. Or like when MJ was on it. Like, I loved watching her on there. And so maybe they could do more of that kind of stuff, though. I don't know, like how many avenues there are for that. Yeah, it gets played out like we don't want Kate Chastain to come back again on traitors. Like we love her, but like, it's, you know, you don't want to, like, beat a dead horse. Yeah. I wonder, what do you think of Mercedes on Beverly Hills Housewives? Oh, I kind of. I would love to see it. I don't know if it would work, but I'd love to see it. Yeah, I agree. She's not like younger than any of them. I think Reza would be very jealous, Reza. So that would make it so interesting. But he could be like a friend of mine. Yeah. He would just show up and do pot stirring stuff. Yeah. And then, like, get paid for that. I'm sure he'd be happy enough now. I don't know. Maybe he needs to be the star. He does seem like he craves that level of attention. Like I truly believe he must have been so pissed at like the attention MJ got for her traders performance villains now. So he's like, But do people watch House of Villains like they watch traders? Some people really like that first season. I would love to watch. I'm a huge New York fan. So. From Flavor Flav. So I heard she killed it on it. But Jax, I think, also got voted off like first episode or second episode. Yeah, this makes sense. Like in these shows, the competition shows that these people who have too much of like a curated personality like are not going to be trusted and, like, get them off. Yeah. Well, once again, I want to thank Jenny Brew for suggesting this topic. It was really interesting. We actually dived really deep into it. And if you have other requests, hit us up on Instagram, it's unhinged and on camera and we will definitely do it. I'm not sure where we're going next. I mean, I feel like we've been talking a lot about Shannon Beador Yeah, there's definitely some more stuff to do, like around New Jersey, either Marge would be an interesting dove then, I think, you know, O.C. just started. Definitely have to do. Shannon Beador at some point would also be interested in doing Tamra or even even like a heather Dubrow. Could be interesting. Yeah. And we're talking to some exciting guests, so subscribe like and follow us. Yeah, I get on the bandwagon early, Keep listening, everyone.