Episode 9: Margaret Josephs from the RHONJ

In this episode, we delve into the world of one of Real Housewives of New Jersey's most eccentric characters: Margaret Josephs. From her dramatic fallout with "Soggy Flicker" to navigating the explosive Teresa vs. Melissa feud and her ongoing clashes with Jen Aydin, we explore what truly drives Margaret. Is her behavior rooted in her experiences as a parentified child, or is she simply vying to be the center of attention? More importantly, is her need for control causing chaos on Real Housewives of New Jersey? Tune in as we uncover the layers of Margaret Josephs and dissect the impact of her actions on the show. Listen now!

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Transcript

ello. Hello. Are unhinge friends? I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam. I'm a psychotherapist in New York City. We're best friends and bravo superfans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is unhinged and on camera.

Unknown: Welcome back, everyone. I want to be like Hannah Berner, where she like intros. Like, she's always like, my giggling gal is my giggling. Like, she always can find, like, some alliteration. But I feel like unhinged is kind of a hard work school. Really. That's true. it would be like unhinged urchins. Hello. All are unhinged versions. And I blew the load in that one, so. Welcome back. All right, some announcements at the top. I just wanted to announce the show I recently worked on. Gypsy Rose. Life after lockup is out. The whole season's out. If you have cable, you can watch it on Lifetime app or you can purchase it on Amazon Prime. As much as I'd love to break down the psychology of Gypsy Rose with you, I know the NDA is super strong, so if anyone wants to reach out to me to talk about it, I'm here. Yeah. DeMar Instagram page unhinged on camera. Sam will give you her psychoanalysis breakdown. I will not reply, but watch it. Another thing I wanted to announce, because we had talked about this a lot during the Vanderpump Rules Lala episode, also on the dissenting opinions episode with Amy Rodin just about the disparity between women producers and men producers and who are making decisions in reality TV. I think a lot of people on Instagram were really mad about Vanderpump Rules, how this season went, even though it was recently nominated for an Emmy second year in a row. Emmy, I don't know if this season how much does that have to do with ratings versus like whether it's actually good as that is the real question, right? Well, it's interesting because I almost feel like because they broke the glass ceiling of getting nominated last season, I think, and didn't win because welcome to Wrexham someone which I actually do like that show it but it's a very different show. But I think because of that they were like, let's give them another chance. Below Deck Down Under was also nominated for that episode. We've talked about this on the Pod two where a girl was almost assaulted. Producer stepped in was actually someone I know who is amazing as a producer. So they were nominated too. So Bravo coming in on the Emmys was pretty interesting and exciting. So anyways, Gina Davis, you probably know her from A League of Their Own. Famous actress. She actually has a institute that studies gender disparity in film and TV, and they just recently did a study about unscripted. So I just thought it'd be interesting to read some of the findings. Overall, men outnumber women in reality TV production. Men make up 58% of executive producers supervising producers and creators, compared to 41% of women. More interesting, the data finds that behind the scenes, as decision making power grows, the percentage of women in the job decreases. So there's been some improvement over the last ten years, but the change is pretty slow and inconsistent. So it's basically just backing up. A lot of what we talked about with Amy, which is there are a lot of women in this space, primarily reality TV is driven by women. You also. Right, like not only is it driven by women viewers, but a lot of reality TV is about women's lives. And we're having men, you know, majority tell those stories and like how that skews what we're seeing and how that's affecting like what stories are being told and how they're being told. Definitely But today we are jumping into Real Housewives of New Jersey. We did Teresa and Joe Gorga. That was really interesting episode, if you haven't listened to it. One of my favorites. Go and listen to it. Yeah, we did a lot of research for that one. I feel like it turned out really well. So today we're going into Margaret Josephs. I feel like she's such a controversial figure because I feel like she has such a big supportive, like people who stand I don't know what they call themselves Pigtail Warriors or whatever, but she has like real like fire behind her in audience, like love and support and appreciation. And then I think there's the smaller sect, and maybe it's not as small as I think it is, but it feels like a smaller sect of like Marge critics and people who really are kind of like turned off by her. But it feels like it's very rarely that you find someone who sits in the middle of March. Definitely. And I think both of us kind of especially last week, we did Shahs of Sunset and afterwards, I think I don't know if it was the energy of the day or something, but it would just hit a lot of trigger points. So we're like, okay, let's, let's do somebody that we both definitely agree on, which is Margaret Josephs. And I think what we're going to explore is partly what her role is in a lot of the conflicts between women on the show. Because I often feel that she's stirring the pot or she's which she's not a Lisa Rinna but I do see that she separates the groups a lot and makes people choose sides. And I think that's really dividing for a show, especially a housewife show. And I want to get to the bottom of why she does that. Or, you know, there's a lot to get into. But why don't you start with. Well, I think the first thing that you compare to Lisa Rinna or like a lala like these, like what we call like the. Where it feels like more producer plants or like producer pets. I think what's different about Marge that I appreciate, even though I think I stand more on the critical side and have can feel a little more like triggered by her and me because again, like I find the people I'm most triggered by are like where I'm seeing parts of myself that I like feel like I want to just own. But I think what's interesting about her over that, some of those other producer parts is that she is vulnerable. And we do get to like I feel like I know her in a way that I don't feel like I know Lala or I don't even feel like I know Lisa Rinna. Like I don't like I couldn't tell you like who they are as people because it feels like who they are as people is so different than who they're kind of like showing up on the show as where I feel like Marge, like how we see her on the show, like if you saw her in life, like that's who she would be. I think this is very much her and how she navigates. I get the sense that we are really seeing a true person in this. Let's start with some background about her, because there's a lot I don't I realize I paused on Jersey. I think that season when Marge entered the scene, there's a lot of arguments are in Real Housewives of New Jersey that are just really petty. And Margaret does tend to take a moral side in things. I guess sometimes I'm just fascinated by how far they can take something that to me seems minor, or maybe they just don't get that deep into it. Just off the top of my head, I remember Jackie, you know, two seasons ago it was coming out that her husband Evan. had cheated on her, according to Teresa, was spreading this rumor at her husband's birthday party, which was insane and hilarious. But Jackie just took it so far. And I was like, But with the cheating rumors, storylines, I'm always like, If it's not true. Why does this bother you so much? I don't understand that. And I think Margaret got involved in that, too. Margaret's just always involved in everyone's conflict, you know? So when Margaret first came on the show, she came in as Ziggy's friend. And I actually and I really like Siggy at the beginning, and I'm like, ashamed to say that because of where we know. So you guys that now world. Well ironically and I don't think I've ever even told you this, I worked on Ziggy's matchmaking show for VH1. We actually had a show before Real Housewives of like Millionaire Matchmaker Lady. Was it similar to that? Yeah, it was a little more format, if I remember. I mean, I don't even know if it's not really formatted or like, more like formatted like competition, like like you're going to pick your spouse here. I mean, that's kind of what millionaire matchmaker is like, too. Yeah. I mean, it was more it was just less Bravo and more VH1. It was more. I like Flavor of Love kind of matchmaking show, but it was same on Millionaire Matchmaker on that too. It was on a it wasn't on Bravo, was it. No, it was on Bravo. Yeah. Now it actually is on NCW. Yeah, sorry. Side Story, but Patti Stanger is now on CW doing her show. She is back. But so Siggy had a matchmaking show, although watching her on Real Housewives of New Jersey, I don't know why anyone would want her advice. She's really rewatching some of those episodes would say, Yea, I was like, Why would anyone listen to this person? But okay, but she comes in a sex friend and kind of almost immediately is ready to like dump Siggy to be friends with any anyone else who she feels as. How I understood that who feels is more important to the show because I think even I don't think Ziggy's ever been integral to the show she's always felt more like and it was she on more than two seasons like she wasn't on very long. She was kind of more of a friend of role. It felt like to me we got some of her life, but it felt like there was a true intention there for Marge to connect with Melissa injury. So like, she immediately gets that bouquet of roses for Teresa's mother, who had passed away. And what's really interesting is at this time, Teresa and Melissa are kind of getting along. They're in like a in a place where they're like kind of aligned with each other. And it almost feels like immediately they bring Siggy into their own triangle. And like, Siggy is on the outside and the cake of the cake of it all where they throw the cake, Siggy is very upset about throwing the cake. And so together. Yes. So Siggy got this over the top cake for Melissa Gorka's birthday. And Melissa Gorga and Teresa are surprisingly getting along at this time. And they Teresa and Melissa start throwing the cake. It's this elaborate cake that Siggy made and they're actually not mad. They're just happy that they're doing it. They're being playful with each other, which we never see. Yeah. And then Ziggy, you know, makes it all about herself. I am a little hesitant to figure. I would love to know how much Zigi was actually friends with Margaret before she came on. Because once they start fighting about this cake thing, which I don't even know how, again, Margaret's even involved, but they start fighting. They kept saying, You don't really know me. I don't really know you. So it does kind of feel like sometimes I know when these people are cast well, I know producers will figure Ostler is really good friends with Siggy. I've heard that that John Foster is really good friends with Siggy. So it makes me think that there's just like this connection of friendship there, because didn't Gen FESSLER come in as Marge's really good friend? And so there must be that. How good are friends? I don't know. But they must kind of like hang out in similar friend circles, which makes me question all of their politics, but like also New Jersey, like, you know, definitely. But yeah, so producers sometimes will have a loose connection between people and be like, this person will come in as your friend. And that's kind of how it felt with Margaret and Siggy. Like they knew each other. I think the first time you see Margaret's on a Zigi event, but once they start fighting, they're like, we didn't really know each other. But it feels like when Jenn FESSLER comes in as Margaret's friend, they seem to have a long history. They're referencing how many years they've been friends. I didn't get that sense with Siggy, so that does make me think that the producers were playing a stronger hand in bringing her on. But that's all just speculation. I don't know for a fact, you know. Right. But either way, she kind of is ready to like toss Siggy to the side. It seems like she doesn't show any loyalty or even like what feels like. And you see this a lot with like, again, RINNA And like Denise Richards like so ready to like throw whoever on the bus that like you kind of bring in as a friend or as someone who you have an alliance with, for story or for to create something interesting or to align with someone who you feel like maybe the audience is going to be more supportive than you. Yeah. So she comes in, she's she becomes good friends with Teresa and Melissa, which kind of goes through different things. But what we learn about her very quickly is she has left her husband. She left her husband, who she was married to for, I think almost 20 years for her contractor. And that it was like narrated as like a big scandal. There's a lot of like talk over the seasons of like how that went down. And apparently she was, you know, seeing Joe for over a year and a half while she was still with Jan, her original hut, her first husband, and finally left. Correct me if I'm wrong when it comes up, is it sort of like Monica in Real Housewives of Salt Lake City where she just kind of trauma dumps like I cheated on my husband and with the contractor. Right. Because the first time Kevin up is in Boca in that Russia the the first season, it feels like she's wanting to get ahead of the story. Like here I'm putting it out there. I'm owning that. This is a scandal. I'm going to own it in this way so that nobody can use it against me as a vulnerability. Oh, yeah, definitely. Because I think that comes up later with Jenn Aydin, right? The next season. Yeah. Okay. So she's kind of owning that. We also get introduced to her mother, Marge Senior, and we find out a lot about them, which I find that relationship to be really interesting. So Marge Senior, she's the only child of Marge Senior. It's interesting that they have the same name, right? Like there's something there that I feel like speaks to for me, like expectations that the mom is putting on the child to, like, live something out for her. She apparently, Marge Senior had Marge when she was 20. She got divorced from Marge's father very quickly. I think Marge was too. And it's not typical either for a woman to take another woman's name the same way. JR And her man, I mean, I applaud it. It's interesting, but it does say a lot, especially at age 20, to be like, I want my legacy to live on Well, it kind of makes sense. A 20 year old, like you're kind of like very young and and not, you know, you're impulsive. You're still in that, like, ego centered place where you're not necessarily going to be thinking about other people. But Marge talks a lot about how she labels that she's been raised by wolves, that she did a lot of her and her mom grew up together. She did a lot of taking care of her mom growing up and even it seems like in the present, because when she comes on, her mom is like working for her business, right? Like there's a lot of like protecting and taking care of her mother in this, like, parental ified way. And I think being a parent of five child has kind of. established who Marge is like. We see her in a lot of like the typical parented by child roles that we see it in her marriages, in her friendships. She wants to be a caretaker. She wants to be independent. She wants to she like fears, relying on other people. That thing I thought was really interesting with Margaret and her mom, because I just saw a snippet of scenes where she tries to set up Marge Senior with her accountant and They go on a double date as her first date. And the whole time her mother, Marge Jr, Marge Jr and Joe are making all these like insane sex jokes, which there's no boundaries, which is another very classical presentation of parented by children. And like, they don't know boundaries. They don't know boundaries with their parents. The enmeshment is so messy and it also creates a lot of anxiety for for the child. And so also a lot of like themes of like fear of perceived rejection and abandonment. And we see a lot of this in like how Marge moves through relationships, I think, on the production. And I think that first season she gets in that phase with Siggy and she keeps saying, Oh, I'm just funny, I'm just really funny like Joan Rivers. I'm just really funny with like. Yeah. And then with the date with Marge Senior, they're being so over-the-top with the sex jokes. Do I think that she's probably like that in real life with her mom? Yes, definitely. But it felt also like they're really hamming it up for the camera. So I did feel like that first season Marge came on that she was very much trying to be I'm going to be the funny girl with pigtails who's eccentric and like people remember me, it just really felt like that. And bringing her mom on and making her sort of part of the storyline also kind of felt like I'm going to put it all out there, which is interesting. I mean, it definitely made her that first season. People weren't really liking her. I remember. Well, I think it's really interesting with her mom because I feel like to me, I wonder, like how much Marge wanted to be famous or how much she, like, took that on from her mom. Because what they talk about her with her mom is that growing up, she was like a party girl. She was in New York. She was always going out. She it seemed like maybe there was like a fame seeking part of her and then that got, you know, put on to Marge Jr, like, right, like I'm going to live out something my mom wasn't able to live out now and almost provide it for my mom, right Like her mom does become like a spectacle for the show that people love rightly. People love seeing Marge Senior and they praise her. And in that I feel like was she like a Studio 64 type of girl was? I think so. That was the feeling that I got. But there's this part of Marge that is like providing her mom this, like, fame and this thing that she always wanted, but also kind of criticizing and calling out her mom for not like being a mom. There's a beautiful scene between her and her mom where Marge is saying, like, I always took care of you. Do you know what that was like for me? And just kind of really confronting her about this, like, parental ified role her mom puts her in and then there's like this like very much protective, like, I'm going to protect her. I'm not I won't let people see my mom as the bad guy. And it makes me think of like the way Marge moves through her relationships with the other women of, like, I don't want to be seen like the bad guy in the same way I'm like protecting my mom from being seen as the bad guy. And that's why she's, like, always campaigning with all the other women to like, come on my side or I'm going to be on this side, or I'm always going to be on the good side of things. I'm never going to be on like what's seen as the negative side. And that's really feels vital to like who she is and how she wants to be seen, how she wants to feel in her relationships. Yeah, I think remembering those scenes of Margaret, Margaret and her mother, I feel that sometimes they have a cringe factor where it is. It seems like she's very throwing her under the bus for the sake of the show sometimes. Like let me put it all out there and it does give me a sense she doubles back is where is where it becomes I think that's where the cringes. It's like, okay, we're getting this real moment where she's calling her mom out for like, you know, abandoning her and like not allowing her to be a kid. But then they're sort of like, no, it's okay, everything's fine. And then it's like, okay, so what are we supposed to feel here? I get the sense sometimes that she's had those conversations and she's doing it again for the camera. But I could be totally wrong. Oh, there's no way she's gone this long in life and not had those. She seems like she has some level of awareness of her situation and I do think she wants to share it, but I think she wants to share it in a very well. It brings me to my next thing I feel about Marge in a very controlled way. I think she is like a person who has and needs such a high level of control, and she even talks about it with not drinking. So Marge doesn't she's sober, she doesn't drink. And she says part of the reason she doesn't drink is that she doesn't want to lose control. And also that she saw her mother being drunk, growing up and being sloppy and was like, I'm never going to be like that. And we see. But she's very sloppy with her emotions like her outbursts in fights with the women. Not always physical, obviously, although they do get kind of physical on New Jersey housewives. She can just be very loose with her words in the way she talks. And I know it's come up a few times the ladies were there like, you don't even drink. So, like, what's your excuse? And when she pushed Danielle's husband into the pool with Joe, the famous line where she's like, Your husband's in the pool, you know, I know Teresa in interview. Like you don't even drink. Why did you? You know what? But then she can come back and get people to either apologize in some way that she doesn't actually mean. Yeah. To gain control. We see that a lot with with Jen, with the dynamic between her and Jen ET in or show again go campaigning to get people to see that like I didn't do something bad. I didn't do something wrong here. So it's like, yes, she can lose control in some moments because she's human. And again, she probably gets really disregulated around perceived feelings of like rejection and abandonment, which I think must have been what was going on between her and Danielle at the time. There was some deeper feeling in that of feeling like either Danielle was abandoning her in some way or rejecting her. And these are like core wounds that she wouldn't be able to, like, verbalize. So it's not like as an audience, if you're not really paying attention to like the deeper meaning of things you might miss, like why she's being reactive in that way. That's really interesting because something I was interested in with Marge is the loyalty, because obviously loyalty is so big on Real Housewives of New Jersey. I don't think it's loyalty, but that's why I'm seeing like I think on Real Housewives of New Jersey, because of the place and the culture and Italian families. And Teresa and Melissa being sort of the core of that tonight is New Jersey culture, like Italian, New Jersey culture. Yeah, it's loyalty. But with Marge, she's not that doesn't come from an authentic place. So but I think you saying this is a core wound of abandonment that makes more sense to me, because sometimes her reactivity on that doesn't feel like it's coming from loyalty. It feels like you need to stand, especially more recently jumping forward. But with Jen FESSLER and her being like, Why are you suddenly cool with Teresa? Like, You are been friends with me for years. Like this doesn't make sense. It doesn't come from a loyalty place to me. It does come from that abandonment place. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I don't think it's about loyalty to her. I think there is an extreme sensitivity. When you become a parent of a child at a young age, you are very sensitive to perceived feelings of rejection or abandonment. Ah, and those are the things that are going to trigger reactivity or defense mechanisms. You know what's interesting too is we've had how many podcasts now where this issue has come up with Lindsay, with how many how many people has this come up with? Oh, Carlos, you know, there's a icky there's definitely a pattern of yeah, like women who come on to these shows who want to establish this sense of like control over who they are and their narrative. And yet they all kind of come in with these, like, attachment wounds that get activated in the dynamics of the show. And I do think it's interesting that there is sort of like it's I don't think it's like a type of woman, but there's like a type of trauma that like it feels like kind of brings you to want to be on reality TV and like using reality TV as a way to like, as some sort of corrective emotional experience or thinking. It's going to like it's almost like addiction, like I'm going to use this thing to cope. I'm going to use this thing to feel better, to fill this like empty hole in me. But what it ends up doing is actually just like reinforcing the wounds. I remember early in reality TV world there was a course you could take at New York Film Academy where you could learn to be a reality star, a reality TV star, and this was like right after the real world was still on, but before Bravo had really become a huge thing. And one of the most important things about being a reality TV star was to know who you are and be very firm in that personality to whatever your personality is you need to know and you need to be that person. So you couldn't be flexible, you couldn't be growing, you couldn't be learning. You had to be who you were, as loud as you could be and as strong as you could be, and not back down. Those were the characteristics that they. Or teaching in this course if you wanted to be on reality TV. And when I look at a lot of these housewives, they totally fit that Bill. Marge is definitely this is who I am. Take it or leave it and that's it. But over time, when you've been on these shows for so many years, it starts becoming very draining because you're not seeing any growth. Right. And like, how how much do you want to see someone play out the same narratives over and over again and. Definitely not. Not that like again, I think that's why people are wearing and I want to you know, at the end we'll talk a little bit about like where the downfall of the show is coming from and what Marge's role in it is. But something I think's really interesting is the dynamic between March and Gen eight it. Mhm. Because though Jen comes in March is second season and I, I don't remember exactly where people were at with Marge. You said people didn't really like her that first season. I can't remember. I remember I think people liked her because I think they got rid of Siggy and they kept Marge. Right. Right. Because it was that whole Hitler thing. Remember? I don't even want to talk about. So, yeah, like, yeah, you're right to talk about her, but yeah. Siggy threw out some crazy accusations about Marge. Almost in a way. I like to, you know, kill her career on Real Housewives of New Jersey. And I think when any time one person comes back and the other person doesn't, they won the battle. So Marge definitely won the battle over soggy flicker. Sonja for her was funny and it was kind of Joan Rivers. We owe it to her. But so Jen comes in the next season, and what I think really triggers Marge about Jan and triggered her right away was two things. I think Jen comes from this very traditional, like wife does this, you know, man controls woman, like there's this like sort of traditional patriarchal upbringing. She's coming into the show and it feels immediately like Marge labels her as spoiled. She's being taken care of by her husband. She doesn't have to worry about things, ever. She has all these people to take care of her, which I never had. And two, she gets to see how Jen doesn't need to have control over anything. That's what we love about Jen. She is not trying to control what we see, how we see her like Jen. Jen is another one, which is who she is. But in this way of like pure chaos. Jen tends to not think before she speaks. It's a real, I think, pre-sold triggering for her because any time she doesn't think before she speaks, there's punishment, there's problem. And whether that's internal punishment or external punishment, like I think for Mar, there's such an important piece of like having control and being perceived in whatever way she wants to be perceived and then to see someone who is kind of like chaotic and crazy and like no control and like kind of like enjoying that. I think that's really like, hard for Marge to, like, accept. So the first fight I feel like they have and maybe I'm wrong about this or it's one of the first ones is that Marge makes some like negative comments about arranged marriage. And at the time, Jen's Jen, Aidan's brother, is getting married to someone in Turkey who it seems like is an arranged marriage. It's they've only met each other for a couple of days and they're getting married, which is probably very normal in that culture and works out in a lot of marriages and marginally normal in a lot of cultures. Do like as much as we want to just look from a Western perspective, a lot of countries do that. So, you know, not always portrayed in Western media but. And is it always good? Like. No, but is it always bad? No. Like you can pick your partner and it could work out pretty terribly too. So. Exactly. I don't know her. And I did work out for Marge when she cheated on her husband. Well, I want to get to that, because one of the things that like Marge says, she calls, she starts talking about mail order brides. And this is really like offensive. Like this is like culturally insensitive to say something like that. And all the women kind of call her out there like Marge, like you can't say that that's really messed up. And it's a really interesting moment because I do feel like Marge internalizes that. And then Jen comes back to the dinner table and apologizes to Jen. She's like, I'm sorry, I recognized that I shouldn't have said that and that I was trying to hurt you in response to something I think Jen had said about Marge's mom being a cheater and like a hussy and like kind of like calling out marriages Moms like behavior like that in the same scene. Didn't she call out your husband has a girlfriend or something to that was that's later that's like okay yeah there's another it's like so or maybe it was in the same scene, but it's like around this, it's all about, like, the way your life is and the way my life is. And this, like, calling out and really and they both do it. They have similar attack styles, which is really interesting. But Marge kind of comes down and she apologizes and Jen accepts it. I think one of the things that I really love about Jen is she like does not she I feel like she could go to New York in some ways, like the OG, New Yorkers, like she gets mad, she gets the reaction, she has these big fights and then she's so willing to get of. Right? Yeah. But I think that Marge actually was I think Marge was still she apologized because all the women were like, that was wrong and she doesn't want to be seen as wrong or bad. So she's willing to, again, gain control, apologized, but then immediately goes and gossips and calls Jen's lips. Monkeys, asshole, right. Look, it's like she's she's not gone too far before. She's already back in this, like. I got to get at this woman. And I think there's a huge trigger for her in just Jen's life, I think. Marge really wants to. And one of the things I like about Marge, I think she is like a little bit of a feminist. She wants to like she believes in women's independence. She doesn't want to be controlled. She doesn't want to be reliant on anyone in those kinds of ways. She would prefer people to rely on her. And again, I think these are all sort of outcomes of being a parent of a child. But also part of being a feminist is if a woman wants to be taken care of and have a rich plastic surgeon husband that pays for everything and wants to, you know, live without hurting. Yeah, you have to support that, too. There's not one way to be a feminist, you know, if that's her choice and she's happy doing it. Where does Marge get off? I guess. Also, I think Marge slips by sometimes because when she gets in this back and forth with other people, they both tend to go low and throw so many insults. I'm just flashing back to so many scenes now where Marge will get into it with Jan a lot of times, but Jan is the perfect person for her to fight with because Jan is never going to take the high road. And so if Marge starts in a low place, Jan is going to go lower. And so then it makes Marge look like she is the adult in the situation. That's exactly where I was going with this. I, I think she gets off because the other person goes low, too. And then she has she always has more of a of a group behind her who back her and she's utilized in that. Yeah. There's control that they're saying controlling the situation. Yeah, she's saying. Okay. Jan Fassler. You've been my friends for 20 years, so you have to have my back. Okay, Melissa, I had your back with Teresa, so you got to have my back. She's always collecting an army behind her, so even if she's in a fight, I remember, like, one of the first parties at Jan Fowler's house, her and Jan get into it, and they both go really low. And then Jan was even really shocked. And FESSLER is like, Marge, I've never heard you talk like that in the way you were talking. And like, I don't think that was okay. And Marge is like, Yeah, I shouldn't have. Yeah, yeah, you got it. But you're my friend, you know, we both make mistakes. You got to have my back. She's always collecting her her minions. I feel like making sure they're in line. And there's this, like, control factor of saving face, like, yeah, I shouldn't have done it. And yeah, I'm going to go do it again in 10 minutes. Right? Like there's something I'm like, I'm taking accountability, so isn't that enough? I mean, every time she apologizes, didn't even the fight you're talking about where she was talking about Jen's brother. And Jane gets up from the table and she's crying. It is. You're right. It isn't until all the women are telling her that's not cool. Even Dolores is like, that was not cool. You do not talk about people's husbands. You don't talk about people's faith. Even Melissa, who I think is her good friend, or Teresa who's like at this point, like are the people who are her allies are saying like, that wasn't right. And it just reminds me of which I'm jumping forward. But when she outs Jen Aidan's husband's affair that happened years before they even join, which is such a double standard. As someone who is just like I, I'm sitting here saying, I'm on. I'm sitting here saying it's okay for marriages to go whatever way. And yet here I am out this one end and place a judgment on her first day. Yeah. And she had this convoluted logic that the reason she was right in doing that was because Jen, Aiden criticized her for cheating on her husband. So it was her policy. It never the logic with that never made sense. And it took her almost an entire season to really apologize to Jan, and I don't think she actually meant it when she did. I think she still thinks that it was. I think she's really good at justifying why her own behavior is valid or reasonable. And I think, again, it goes back to those core like abandonment, rejection wounds that like as long as something has touched those, any response that she has is valid because it's coming from her, like protect her, right? She's got this like protector that she built in response to trauma that like if that comes out, it's because it was supposed to and I'm supposed to protect myself. And so I couldn't be wrong. And that even if other people are telling me I'm wrong, I can, like, acknowledge, like, okay, it was low and like, but I'm not actually sitting there with the accountability of like that was wrong and I'm going to try to change the way I respond to these things. Yeah. I don't know if you want to get into because I don't remember all the details, the fight that Jen, Aiden and Marge got into about. She was sharing this story about her boss sort of sexually harassing her. Oh, remind me the story. Do you remember? well, it was one of the few times I was really on Marge's side, but it just got again so convoluted that basically Marge was sharing that she's writing a book, right? And one of the stories in the book was about her boss sexually harassing her when she was younger. And Jan in was sort of like, Well, you put yourself in that situation or something like that. And then it all became so convoluted. And then Marge was like just so horrified that Jan would even say something like that, which was wrong. What Jan instead? Jan eight in Bides, I think I remember watching it and thinking, Oh, she's just so ignorant. Like she I don't even think like Jan. Aidan has really worked in that kind of situation to understand the dynamics. That's the sense I got. It was coming from a very ignorant place, but she was she was definitely like maybe also like a culturally misinformed place because a lot of patriarchal, traditional cultures kind of do blame women for. If something bad happens to them. I think that's a normal thing to happen in a lot of those those types of cultures. And therefore it is kind of like normalized of like we we as women are responsible for men's behavior. And so if we want men to behave, we have to behave. And it feels like then that's what she's saying to Margaret, which is like obviously in our culture, like so messed up because that's blaming the victim and you don't blame the victim. And for her to be willing to share that and write a book about it where she probably has more risk to get, you know, repercussions, to get sued, to get right, like to be victim blamed, and then to have another woman say, like, well, you caused that. Yeah, I get I get her response to that. And Jen is definitely kind of messed up for saying that. Yeah. And, you know, they just keep going back and forth and back and forth and there's definitely something deeper there. Just the clash of personalities. And it probably is what you're saying is they see themselves in the other person. Well, something they want in themselves, but they can't have. Yeah. Mm hmm. Because I think definitely wants her her freedom to say the same thing. Yeah, I think Janet and one dependent wants to be some of those things that she sees in Marge, but, like, can't be probably because of, like, culture or tradition, family, different things that wouldn't allow her to. And then the same for for Marge wanting some of the things that Jen has, wants to have people to take care of her, wants to be able to just like lose control and wants to be able to just like not care about the repercussions of things. Yeah, I think one of the saddest things with Janet and for me personally is just seeing how Bill doesn't really take her side. I mean, she's not right. She's wrong a lot. So in fairness, and Bill is just more of a decent person in public and then in private be like, hey, like you have to also think about like there's a better way to do it that I feel like, again, coming from a more patriarchal place, they probably don't feel they need to do that. I also feel like it's interesting because with Jen and Marge, if they were just able to like slow down a minute and use some empathy, they would be able to connect and probably be really great friends. But they just both have these like protective ways of being that like whenever some vulnerability gets touched by the other, they're like. Clash, clash, clash. And it makes me think how much of that is like the show putting pressure on it and how much of that is like them and the mixture of that? Right. Like I think it's a little bit of both. Yeah. Marge does feel like the type of character that is constantly creating conflict for the show. It does feel like she's constantly kind of stirring up these arguments and stuff. I mean, even with that, it's the season premiere. It was Theresa's party. I think she just started dating Louie or something, and she shows up and I mean, Teresa does this to like with Jackie and Evan, she showed up at their party first episode of the season and drops bomb that Evan's cheating on Jackie So I think all the girls do this they kind of set up their storyline that they want to drop this season. So I remember that first party with Louie. Margie sort of like has this all this information about Louie, then she has all this information about Bill. Like, she's just like she's a bit of a bone collector. I just I really struggled with understanding why Marge felt it was justified that she she talk about Bill's affair. I mean, it really didn't make sense to me. And I actually thought Jan handled it so well because she was like, Yeah, you had no fear. No, she's like, it was the pharmaceutical rep get it right? Like it was so good. Her response to it, like, oh, yeah. Add that to the Criterion Collection. Yeah. Yeah. Criteria. The Bravo Criterion Collection is a beautiful moment because it's she handles it beautifully. She just acknowledges it and corrects her. And it's like, okay, we're going to put this out there that we're going to put out the correct information about it. And it leads to some other beautiful moments. And I'll have to I wish I could find that scene of of Jen and Bill in therapy with that old lady therapist. We got to get that. Oh, we should do that. That's another great. That'll be for our whatever my therapy therapy criterion collection. So yeah because of all the housewives that ever because I was so frustrated with Jackie storyline about Evan I just get so frustrated with this cheating storylines because it's like he did it or he did it and you and if there's a doubt in your mind, that's what you're really upset about. I mean, I the whole idea that, oh, Evan's going to lose his job because someone said he was cheating on a reality show. The only thing I would get is the kids. They do have young children. And so the. Children hear about these rumors going around and children aren't going to know, like, what's real and what's not. And then there's like, well, like that. If they go on that aspect of it, I can support it. Right? But if you're going on like this is going to have huge repercussions on his life and our marriage and like, well, then maybe things like there's some things you need to question about why you came on reality T.V. Because if you didn't know this was a part of it, like that's on you. Yeah, because Jen knew it was a part of it. And I think the way that she showed how her kids were really affected by it, like they had to tell their kids, it became really real. I don't know. And it took Marge so long to apologize. And I think it was only after that lunch where Jen was really crying and then Marge really understood the kid aspect of it, but it still didn't feel that genuine to me. Like, I don't understand. Well, they never wear that clean in friends afterwards. They never there was like sensitivity with each other afterwards. Like, I can't remember exactly what happened that season because I feel like Real Housewives of New Jersey has been going down. So it's harder to I know it just I mean, how could you watch those scenes with little Olivia being upset about her dad and her other daughter and Mar just be like, man, it's all fair, fair and reality TV. I don't understand that. But again, I think she does see people as her enemy or her friend. Mm. It does seem that way. And Jen's always been her enemy. So. And I think as soon as you if you, you know, trigger her attachment wounds, you're no longer like a person that she worries about what happens in their lives. You're not so like she either cares for you, and she's going to be very, very sensitive and very understanding or, you know, you're out with the bathwater. What I don't get is with the Jan situation with her ex, she was very open that first season. I cheated on my ex and I got with the contractor. This is Joe. We're still together. We're in love. I'm good with Jan. Now, this is a situation. I have no shame about it. So for her, later, many seasons later, saying, Oh, it's justified. I drop this rumor about Bill because she made me feel bad about the Jan situation that happened. So. Didn't you own that? Like, did you own that or did you not own that? I don't understand. But it's kind of like my stories are my stories to tell. And if I'm telling them, then I get to control how that narrative sounds and what is. And as soon as someone else tries to tell my story, that feels like, again, that rejection, abandonment, whatever those wounds are. Right? Like someone is trying to take my voice away. Someone's trying to take control of my narrative, and that doesn't feel safe anymore. And that feels like something I need to go on the attack or defense on. I mean, it goes back to the story with the boss because she was sort of like Jen was asking these questions like, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? And questioning her and Marge was sort of like, No, I'm bringing this story to the group. This is my storyline. And I want you to you know, I want you to be like, oh, poor Marge. She survived this horrible thing, which was horrible and all justified. But again, it goes back to the control she wanted to control. This is how I bring it. This is how you react. And when somebody, Jan had a different reaction, it upset her because she was like, no, that's not that's not the reaction I had in my storyline, like already planned, right? Or you're trying to change the narrative of my story and that makes me feel out of control and scared and vulnerable. Right? Like, if she doesn't have control over those narratives, there's a vulnerability there that's really scary for her. Do we want to get into her and Teresa? Because with Jen, Aiden, I mean, that's that that conflicts always been there with Teresa. They started out as friends and then Teresa sort of has a similar situation with Jen Aid in that she comes from a traditional background. Her and Jesse Jo were not arranged marriage, but she's talked about how she just kind of married him to get out of her. Similarly, though, right? Yeah. He was like a family, someone the family respected and knew and. When did they have a they had a break over Danielle. Right, because Teresa sort of took Danielle's side and then their hair pulling. Right. Well, I think that was the big point where they fell apart because the narrative was that Teresa kind of told Danielle to pull her hair. Is that correct? Yeah. I think in audio there was a line or something that Teresa said, which wasn't really it wasn't really about Teresa being mad at Marge. It was more like Teresa pot stirring and being like, well, you said, like, if you're pissed at her, you should go do this. Yeah, I mean, you could take it either way, but it could it could have been either, but it was uncalled for. I mean, that was really violent what happened? So I am on Team Marge on that one. Like nobody should put hands on someone and like, especially not a ponytail. But she we had and she just thrown her husband in the pool. So it's. It does. It is a little hypocritical of like, you can't put your hands on me, but I'm justified if I do it to somebody else. That's true. But coming into the Louis of it all. Well, even before we go there, I think one of the core things that I imagine to be really hard for Marge and Teresa relationship is Teresa is not someone you are going to control. She is similar to Jenna. Aiden and I think this is why they're so close that like she's going to feel how she feels and do what she wants, whether she like a group like it is hard to be to have Theresa as like a as like a henchman, right? Or as like someone in your corral because she is not reliable in those ways. And I think that's all that's sort of the core of why a friendship between them was never going to be withstanding. Because, Marge, it's too much of a liability for Marge to have that one. That's that type of person close to her. Let's be Frank Teresa, star of Real Housewives of New Jersey. I mean, if anything, Frank, it feels like Marge wants to be the star of Real Housewives of New Jersey. Definitely. And if it's not, it's not Teresa. It's Melissa. But Melissa has always been less of a dominating personality. So I think Marge knows if Teresa's gone, I will be the star, because Melissa won't take that pedestal, and I'm willing to show way more of myself in a vulnerable way than Melissa is. Well, is it vulnerable? I feel like she pre plans what she's going to do. Right. But it's vulnerable. Yeah. Like to her, this is me showing vulnerability. Yeah. Because like I said, going back to the mob. Yeah, yeah. Going back to the mom. Like a lot of those conversations with mom, they've had those conversations like she's just doing it again for the show. So that's pretty controlled. I don't think that's authentic. I think a lot of the conversation Gen eight and have with Bill around the fair of it was obviously never talked about it. So I think Marge is vulnerable and produced in the way that she wants to bring things to the table. I don't think that's star quality though, but she's better at it than Melissa is because I think Melissa is very similar in that control and like this is what I'm going to show. This is the storyline I'm going to have. Like I'm going to have a baby that's going to be my storyline, even though I don't actually plan on having a baby. Like Jen was so right to call her out on that where I do feel like there's something more authentic in the things that Marge is sharing about her history and all the different. She too, does it in a controlled way, but it it does feel like she's willing to show us more vulnerable things that could be could be used against her in how. Well, the difference, too, is Melissa has Joe Gorga and Joe Gorga is not produced. Joe Gorga is a livewire. So she has that other other person bringing that out in her even if she comes in within a controlled storyline. Joe Gorga is going to Joe Gorga story. He is the star. Yeah. Which Joe other you know is Joe is not obviously he's her bit player and I think you take that role well. I think that's why she she loves I think that's why he's her true love because I think one of the reasons her and Jan did work out is I get the sense that maybe he was more controlling and had more expectations of like what his wife would do and wanted to have more say in the marriage. And it feels like between Marge and Joe, Marge is the boss. And doesn't Marty say that when he gets pushed in the pool? Yeah, and I think that's that's really suits her to be able to be the boss and I really relate to that. So yeah, I think that's a that's a very Joe is happy with it. So the dynamic works. I do find it really interesting. Jan passed away and she's dealing with the grief of that this season. It's really interesting. She talks about how she talked to Jan every single day. They were still best friends. It's I think she just didn't want to be controlled by him. It was better to be out of a marriage with him where she could say and do with her life exactly how she wanted to. And they I mean, they still had family together. They have a kid together. They have stepchildren together. I think I think Marge does like protect family. And so there's a big part of her that wanted to, like, protect him and protect that relationship, but also knew what her limits were. And I don't know, I can respect that. And that Joe was never bothered, I guess, by the fact that she had this close relationship with Jan. But then she talks about now that Jan's gone, I have a worse relationship with Joe. It's like it's weird, but let's get into the Louie stuff. Louie is Teresa's now husband. When they started dating, you know, the Internet searched everything about this guy were. A lot about this guy. So definitely has some like Dirty John characteristics that I think as an audience collectively we are concerned for Teresa because she's already been in a marriage where the man did things that then she had to pay consequences for. And I think as an audience, we're all like concerned for her. Yeah, but was Marge the right player to bring that? It didn't like they were good. Well, it's like Dolores would have been. But Dolores has never do it. Has really strong boundaries and is like, not touching that with a ten foot pole. Yeah, Marge definitely does support starring. She definitely brings a lot of bones to the table. And I wish she owned it more. Right, because she's trying to say, I'm doing this for your own good, which like there may be some validity to it but like you have to also look at the way you're doing things because if you're wanting to bring something to someone's attention because you're concerned about them, but you're not doing it in a way that like is mindful of their feelings or how they may respond to it. Then like, are you really doing it for their own good or are you doing it to create conflict? Yeah. And with Louie, I think he's a slippery character because he has all this stuff in his past. You know, a lot of it's in court documents. You can Google it and see, but a lot of it happened before the show. And I think bringing some of that past stuff up, unless it comes up organically, it always does just feel very produced and like they're doing it intentionally. And for me with Real Housewives of New Jersey, they're they're constantly trying to, like, get Louie on something and like, find something and bring the documents and bring that manila folders to the reunion. And it's like, why don't you just let this guy be on camera and just let him be? If he is this slippery character, this Dirty John character, we'll see it. Let it just happen. Stop trying to expose him because it's not authentic. It feels produced. It was so much happening behind the scenes, so much coming out with the Internet. It's not that interesting and is just driven by the women and what their genuine concern is, or is it driven by the blogs and the fans wanting it to be addressed, which there are things sometimes that, yeah, if you bring a new person on the show and they have a seedy past, it's got to be addressed. Right. I mean, we saw that with Danielle our first season, but it also has to happen in an organic way where it matters like a show, like a Brooklyn actuation, where like like that felt very organic and like, okay, like we were there presenting their concerns about his cancer being fake. Didn't feel like someone pulling up something from his past. It was like, no, this is like a thing that's presently happening. Yeah, exactly. Like I would have rather seen a storyline about why is Teresa not signing a prenup with Louis and Joe Gorga or Melissa or any of our friends being like, You got to sign a prenup girl. Let's have that conversation happen on camera of like, why? Where is that coming from? Is that Teresa saying, I don't want to? Is that Louis telling her that if that's what she wants, he won't marry her? Like we don't know because all we get is Teresa on watch what happens live saying no, we're not having a yeah. I would have loved to see those guys scenes that they love to shoot, which I do think the Jersey guys scenes are really entertaining. Ask Louis, why aren't you signing a prenup with Teresa instead of being like, you went to this weird warrior camp and made a weird video five years ago, right? It has nothing to do with who cares? It was definitely weird and entertaining. I mean, I thought it was right. Like it was harmless. It was really I mean, it was weird and it was entertaining, but it wasn't toxic masculinity underneath all of that. Well, and I guess going back to why that triggered Marge, that's why it triggered March. But also it's like, but why do you care? Sometimes with Marge, I'm like, Why do you care? Why does it matter? He went to a weird warrior camp. He was even with Teresa at the time. It was a video he sent to an ex to try to win her back. In the convoluted nature of having to even explain the video and the show was kind of just time suck. I was like, Why? Well, do you think it's similar to like her thing with Gen eight in where it's like, well, you talked about my affair so I'm allowed to talk about yours that there's like, well, Teresa, you're always trying to bring out stuff on Melissa or on anybody. So this is fair game for me to do. And like, I need something in that about, like, justice and fairness and balancing of the scales. Like, you did this to Jackie last year, so we're doing it to you or like you're doing this. So now we like this. I get to be the, the, the like, unthinking of that. Like just a simple like where I get to be the one who balances the scale, whether it involves me or not. Well, from a producer standpoint, I feel like if you go on a reality show, your life is fair game, period. That's that you got to know. That's what you're signing up for. Everyone's fair game. Their life is fair game. But it has to happen in context to show and it has to matter in the show. And I think with Robin on Potomac, that was a big debate and and I feel both ways about it. Was she hiding it? I mean, if she's saying it didn't happen within the shooting window and it didn't matter within the shooting window, again, these shows have such a short shooting window they shoot from. I think New Jersey's mostly done summer. So it's like June to September. So it's got to happen during that summer or it didn't happen, you know, bringing something up that happened in December, that there's been what has been cheating on her the whole time, so. Well, exactly. And I guess, you know, if you're going to talk about other people's relationships, you're should be you should talk about it. But it does make it relevant for. Yeah. In that moment. Yeah. So that one's definitely a gray area. That's that was interesting to debate, I will say. But with Jersey I think, yeah, your life is fair game. But why are you bringing up Belle's affair from ten years ago when I had nothing to do with what was currently happening within the show? I mean, it didn't really fully make sense with Louis. I was like, Why are you bringing up all this past stuff? Like, It's fine addressing one episode, but then like, let him live, like let him be on the show and judge him for what we see. Right? Because there's plenty to judge with in that. Oh, yeah. But also he's getting away with it because you're not just letting him you're not really questioning him on what's happening right now. And you're giving him you're giving him more control that allows him to control how we're seeing him. Like, if you're bringing up something in the past, he gets to now have control over like I'm going to talk about this in a way where I've been able to like reflect and talk about it in a regulated place where if you're talking about things in the moment, it doesn't give people time to it makes them have to show this more like authentic, impulsive part of themselves. And I think that's something we see a little bit in Louis now, like these moments where he can, like, get angry, angry, angry. But as the body like yeah. The, you know with him is that as long as like Theresa gets angry and kind of disregulated, it gives him more opportunity to regulate and to be on the show with all this chaos, actually is allowing him to, like, seem like this calm, regulated person because he thrives in situations where other people are disregulated and it gives him power to look. And I think actually, now that we're saying it, I think that's something that Marge does, too, where like, as long as someone else is willing to go lower, she gets to be the one on the high horse and up here. And yeah. When you were saying that, all I could think was that's barge. She's very controlled. She wants to control every storyline, how she brings it, the reaction to it. But then when somebody goes low with her and she's disregulated and she's triggered, she has to quickly apologize or make it right or get her minions to back her up because she she can fly off the handle just like Louie. She she really can go low and say really mean things and then she'll quickly, like, try to recover. And like with that Jen FESSLER conversation Jen being like, I've been Jen Foster's like I've been friends with you for years and never seen the side of you. Well, it makes me think how much she sees herself in Louie, and that's where her takedown of him, like, is like she's like, I need to prove that I am better. Like, I see these things in myself. And again, like an unconscious. They're not something she'll have words to verbally share, but like, I see this thing, and so I need to prove that I'm better than him. And so, look, I'm going to find all these reasons why I'm better. Yeah. In that reunion, when they were, you know, bone collecting on Louie and Louie supposedly hired this private investigator, Bo Dietl, to investigate them. He said he did. And then he said he didn't. But whatever, he's like gathering dirt apparently on them, and that really triggered all of them. But then if you think about it, yeah, Marge got a lot of this stuff from the blogs and really the fans did the legwork of finding a lot of this stuff out about Louie. But Marge did, didn't, didn't she bone collect on Louie first and like get all that information and bring the warrior video and talk about any time she feels vulnerable, her like defense or her way of behaving is justified. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like she's saying, oh, I did that in service to Theresa, who didn't want that and didn't like it. And now Louie is doing it against her. But for malicious intent, maybe there is some justification. The same reason, right? Like. Yeah, wanting to prove that he's not the bad guy. Like, he's they're almost behaving in very similar ways. Yeah. And I mean, the whole we've talked about this before, but the phone call with him calling her. Son's workplace. Certainly creepy and definitely weird, but I really wish she would have made the point that she was like, What was the point like? Okay, you maybe proved that Louis called your sons work, but was it an intimidating factor or what? Why? Mm hmm. Right. We don't even know if he was, like, just calling to talk to him, to be like, hey, like, what's going on with your mom? Like, can you talk to, like, trying to some way, like, get through to this woman to, like, leave me alone? Like, we don't know. Yeah, I mean, that still would have been weird. But also, like, we learned that prior to that reunion, John FESSLER lets it out that they all met at Marge's house to plan a strategy to take down Teresa and Louis. So it goes back to the control factor like she planned. She plan on taking this guy out, but they plan on taking Theresa out. Again, it goes back to Teresa's, the star of the show Emergency, the star of the show. And so I'm going to do whatever I need to do to make Teresa look bad. Yeah. And so now we're in a place with New Jersey where it's a bit like Beverly Hills in that there's that Fox 45 and Beverly Hills and then the other people. It kind of feels that way in Jersey where there's a there's a division. Theresa and Melissa won't speak with each other. You know, everyone's in their little camps. Jackie, you know, put did a Benedict Arnold and went to the Teresa camp. Even though Teresa is like I'm using her to get back at Mar, which honestly I respected, I was like, okay, now at least they're saying the quiet part out loud. Yeah, yeah, I know. And I feel like Jackie's okay with it because I think Jackie is smart enough to know the show is the show. And these aren't like, actually, my real friends, which bothers me. That's why I think Jackie, like, is not sustainable on the show. That's why she gets the front of because I think it's obvious that she doesn't see these people as her real friends. And it takes us out right? It like takes us out of, like, what we're supposed to be buying into. And this is what's sad about the Jackie thing is I think Bravo really sidelined her because her eating disorder is a real problem and she needs to take care of herself. And I think it's really hard to be on television and struggle with an eating disorder. So getting into where we are now, the show is in peril. They did not have unwatchable. You know, it's been fine for me. It's not been good, but it's been fine. I mean, I can watch anything Bravo puts out, but I do find, like you were asking me, you said you hadn't watched the most recent episode. And I had and I could not remember what happened. I could not remember. And then I don't know if that uniform or therapist brain, I don't know what that is. But and there's I think there's only like one episode left is the next week finale or there's two episodes left. There's not a reunion. I guess I was under the expectation that there was going to be some big confrontation, and that's why there wasn't a reunion. But it doesn't seem like that's where it's heading. No, I mean, there was that big thing between Jen and Daniel where they kind of like physically assault each other. Again, I have to stress this for just my own sanity. When something happens off camera, it didn't happen. That just happened on camera. No, no. I'm talking about like the whole thing that happened in Atlantic City with the party and her and her. Actually, the reason they're fighting, no actual reason they're fighting wasn't on camera. It happened before the season started. It happened with that woman who was a hairdresser. Then Jen brings her on the show to tell her story and it's like, well, she has to tell the story because it was an on camera that used to be early reality show TV making. You never talked about something that didn't happen. And it's it's a strike. Don't they have better ways to tell these stories than that? Now, you would this seems like the producer problem, right? Like the. Oh, it is. Must be having a hard time creating story with these women that they're having to like accept like. Yeah, bring them on. Let's, let's see if we can get something rolling here. Yeah, that's true. I think we'll talk about this a little. When we talked about Teresa and Melissa, is it true that like this show like has the least budget of all the shows? Like, there's like it feels like I heard some either podcast or someone talking about how it just it's like more cheaply done than all the other shows and it's very like hodgepodge as well. Yeah. I can't, I, yeah, I can't say I don't know about this specific budget. One thing I don't think a lot of fans know is that each show, a lot of the different Housewives shows, Southern Charm, Venerable shows, all of them are made by different production companies. So all these production companies go to Bravo and say, we have this idea for a show. It's about Southern people in Charleston or Bravo will go to the production. Come. And say, we want to make a Real Housewives of New Jersey. Your company is based in New Jersey or based in New York, or you have these connections or you did the casting for it and they'll give them the show. And depending on the company, they they make the decisions on budgets with Bravo, So, yeah, there isn't equality. Beverly Hills Housewives has a different budget and a different production company than Real Housewives of New Jersey. So it just buries. It could be true. I don't know. I also think just in general. Real Housewives of New Jersey is cheaper to make. You're filming places that are, you know, maybe Irish pub. It's not going to cost as much as going to, you know, four seasons in Beverly Hills. So it it depends on where you're filming to. Jersey Shore is super cheap to film. The rates are different than filming in Morocco. The last season, we'll never see it. So yeah, I mean, but in that sense, it should come back. I think they're in a really tough place, though. But there's something happening that it feels like they're really struggling to. And it shouldn't be because I feel like there are interesting stories to tell there, but they're struggling to find a way to tell them. And I think a big part of it is Teresa and Melissa digging their heels in the sand and saying, like, okay, we're going to have this emotional total cut off with each other and now it's divided. And they kind of do need to like maybe either pick a side and like film the casualty of that, of like, okay, we've decided to go full. Teresa Now we're going to film what it looks like and what figured that out. It feels like there's more story there than like, okay, who's got a rumor about who? Because that feels like where we're at with it is like, what are the rumors? What's the latest rumor and like. Who cares? It didn't happen on camera. But maybe that's just like what Jersey is like. They're just like the rumor isn't the land of garbage anyway. So the trash. The trash that they need to be holding. Yeah, I guess so. Bring it back to Margaret. The problem is. With Real Housewives of New York. They cleaned house and started a new show. Was that the right move? The first season struggled. I think the second season is going to be better, but you're rebuilding a show from scratch, so you got to learn these people even doing this podcast. What I've noticed is when we have someone like Teresa and Joe Gorga who've been on the show for however many years, we can really dig into so much of their history and about them. When, like Dubai, we love that show. Shout out to Dubai. We just don't know any of the women enough to really dig into their history. We've only seen one season now, another half of a season. So you're rebuilding from scratch and that takes a lot of time and effort. And for the audience to invest with, like Real Housewives Atlanta, they decided to, like, do a half rebuild, like keep some people, not keep others. It took him a long time to figure that out. Then Kenya had that big controversy. Now, apparently she's off the show. Kenya was sort of that Teresa. How is this season going to be a shit show or what? Like, what is going on? I'm not sure. So, I mean, Kenya was sort of the Teresa of that show, like holding it together. So they're in a weird place with Jersey. If they get rid of Teresa, they don't have their star. But then if they have Teresa, anybody who comes on is either going to be her friend or foe, because even the new girls like Danielle kind of played it better in that she's sort of going back and forth between the groups and making a decision. But who's the other girl? The new girl. Great Buddha. Yeah. Rachel Fouda and her husband, the Fukuda's. I can't even figure out what their beef is with Teresa. They just seem like they decided they're Auntie Marge and they are thirsty. Like they are quenched. They are, like, just dying to have a storyline and they know conflict with Teresa will give them a good storyline and give them lots and lots of screen time. And so I don't even think they're really mad at her. I don't think they really care, but I think they know they couldn't be friends with her. So it's like much easier to get to get screentime, to get popularity, to get some sort of, like, response, to be in conflict with her. Yeah. And you see a lot of rumors right now that Marg isn't coming back, that Jan and Teresa aren't coming back. Let's just be clear. You know, Bravo's in cocktails as they drop all the tea. We're still waiting for a free membership. Actually, if you get busy, I'll probably go on it. We want to. We want to see the content. But we are poor. Yeah, but we poll so. But I have to say, like the cast members leak that stuff. Like Teresa has a minion who goes to the bloggers and says Marge is out the show because she wants to drum up. What will the fans react? Also, Bravo goes to these people and drops things right they to see the reaction to making decisions based on like what are people going to like? What are they not going to like? There was a lot of rumors about kind of smart. It is there was a lot of rumors about the different things they were thinking about doing with Real Housewives of New York. And all I could think as a Bravo executive was leaking this The Bravo executive wants to know, what are the fans going to think if we got rid of all the cast members, what are the fans going to think? And with Atlanta, you saw that, too. And I think they decided to keep some of the girls because of that. So. Is Marge good for TV? She has brought a lot, you know, in the last couple of seasons. I think she does bring her mom on the show. She puts a lot out there. The stuff about Jan, this season's pretty interesting. I know Joe. She has really fun moments to watch too. Like, she is, like, quirky and fun, and there's something that's interesting about that. And is it good for her? I mean, I did see an article that that is Marge the real villain, because she tries to control everything. So I think that basically summarized the answer is yes, yes. Is it good for her? She's a very strong person. I think she can handle reality TV. I think if she wasn't on a real housewife New Jersey, I could totally see her on traders. I could see her on another competition. I'd like to see her and her mom on some like therapy show where they really have to more candidly go deeper into their traumas with each other. I would love to see like some therapy show where we get all these like mother like R.I.P. to like what's was Marisol from Miami is mother's name but I'd like to bring her on you know if she was still here, I would love to see like her and Lisa and Lisa Rinna and Lois of Lois was still here, another R.I.P. but we have all these, like interesting mom characters that Kandi and her mom. Yeah. Other like mother daughter duo as we see on the shows that would be really interesting to like bring them all together and do some sort of like family processing of mother daughters on reality. Because I think those are really interesting relationships that when we see out and bake, like I kind of feel that Marge would be less interesting if we didn't have her mom. I agree. And Teen Mom actually does this. They do like Teen Mom reunion. And they did a show where it was all the teen moms and their mothers and a therapist. And that was kind of interesting. And I know like 90 day fiance does that last resort where they have all the couples go with therapist to you. Yeah, it would be interesting. I think Bravo is starting to tread in those waters. They just announced that dating show that they're doing with Luann and it's fun. It'll be interesting. It'll be like it'll be. I feel like it's going to be crappy like like it's just going to be a seeing. They're like most like, silly, intense sides. I think Bravo really struggles with trying new formats because there's so much weight behind anything they try to do. So I don't envy anyone who works on that show. Gonna fail. If it fails, you scrap it and go on to the next one and like eventually you get hits like that's it. And I still think they need to be more open to bringing in lighter content and allowing there to be more of that in between these heavier things. It does feel like bravo, like like marriage is very controlled and doesn't feel that they can just make a show that can fail. Is a parental fight child of reality TV. It is separate but full circle. Yeah. So the final question that we had this episode is, is Marge the real reason for the downfall of New Jersey? Or at least like what was her contribution to it, I guess? Right. Right. Because I don't the again, it's not just one thing. I think there's multiple factors. I do think Marge can be part of this like rumor mill storyline of like, let's bring in the rumor. And I think that is a big downfall. I think she has played into the Teresa versus Melissa like cut off dynamic. So I think that's also a problem. but I could see the show taking Melissa or Teresa out of it and keeping Marge especially margined Teresa and seeing how that played out And I think that could be interesting. Like, I don't think I don't think removing Marge would cure the problem. So that tells me she's not the real downfall. I think it would be unfair to say Marge, because Teresa and Melissa are at the heart of the issue with the show. Mm hmm. But it's why I think this question is so relevant, is that Marge has been slipping by. She's been the snake in the grass that we've all been sort of ignoring. And that's like, really the real reason I wanted to do her, because I think she's so good at deflection. She's so good at it. And that's part of her control, right? Like, if we go back, she's that poor. She she was an adult before she needed to be an adult. And so she's got some really good survival strategies and mechanisms that allow her to move through reality TV with such ease. Yeah, she's a chess player. And I do think there would be an interesting dynamic of just Teresa and Marge, because I'd be interested. What would she do? But I also think this is just going on. It would be inauthentic at this point if she pulled a Jackie and try to go to Team Teresa. She knows she's in too deep. She's gone against Teresa too long. She's not going to do that. She says she because, again, Teresa's too much of a wildcard for her. She wouldn't feel safe in a friendship with Teresa, so wouldn't be authentic. So I don't know. I mean, they could do that. I think they could have done that this season. I actually felt like they should have gotten rid of Melissa this season. But they put a gamble of like watching some of those old episodes of when Teresa and Melissa were getting along with the whole cake drama. I was like, Dang, they are really good when they get a nice. It's so nice. And I don't understand why Louis drove them apart. I think a lot of it was Joe Gorga. I just I don't know. I think maybe they felt if we forced them together for one more season, who knows? Maybe they could work it out. It didn't work. But, Marge, I don't know. I, I have seen rumors again, probably spread by Teresa that Teresa and Jen ate, and we're going to come back and rebuild the show around them. I not I what I'm hesitant say I'm a fan of either of them. I just I enjoy watching them more. I'm more interested. I think it goes back to the there is no control. They're just so freewheeling with everything. Yeah, like someone like Melissa. The biggest problem with her is like, you can like her as a person, but she doesn't make interesting TV on her own because she's so controlled and because she we don't really know that much about her except for that she has this conflict. Like, what is interesting about her is the way she is in conflict with Teresa and her family. And without that, like what is there, it's a little bit of like an empty shell. I think that, like, if Melissa left and Marge was in the face of I have to find a way to be allied with Teresa in order to stay on the show and to continue relevance. I think, again, because she's such a survivor and has so many interesting ways of doing so that she would find a way to not be Teresa's ally, but to find a way to be in relationship with Teresa that makes the show interesting that she's been allowed not to do because Melissa is there. Drew, I'm really interested in this last episode. I'm really interested in this weird reunion they're doing. Yeah. And I'm interested to see Marge, you know, her back up against the wall, because I do think she well, she'll figure out a way, but Right now as it's positioned, the one rumor I've seen that I believe the most is that Real Housewives of New Jersey won't be coming back for a long time. I think they're going to have to really take a pause and think about it. And they may not need it. It may be that, like, that's just it. Sometimes things have to end and maybe it doesn't get rebooted. Maybe there is something about just like, let's find a new city to explore because like, are we really that interested in stay in Jersey? Sound off in the comments how you feel about Mars, future of Jersey. And yeah, we're going to come back with some more topics. And yeah, I mean, we definitely want to cover Shannon now the O.C. is out. Like there's definitely some more interesting things I want to bring back Amy. We want to have some more guests. So if you want to guest, let us know. We love being in conversation with other people. There's nothing we love to talk about more than Bravo with anyone who wants to talk about Bravo. Exactly. So subscribe like keep listening.