Tamra Judge from Real Housewives of Orange County

Get ready for a wild ride as we wrap up our deep dives into the Real Housewives of Orange County with none other than Tamra Judge! By popular demand, we’re covering all the drama— from Tamra’s fiery feud with Shannon Beador, to her support of Alexis Bellino’s takedown mission, and that unforgettable chemical peel she shared every step of. Plus, we’re diving deep into her explosive war with Vicki Gunvalson after those jaw-dropping comments about Tamra’s strained relationship with her daughter. We’re rewinding all the way back to her debut season to unpack it all. Hit play for the full scoop!

Chapters

• 2:48 Jax's diagnosis
• 5:18 number 1 podcast!
• 7:56 Background on Tamra
• 9:48 Tamra's introduction
• 12:29 Tamra and Ryan
• 18:39 Tamra's relationship with Simon breaking down
• 25:46 Tamra's relationship with alcohol
• 33:27 Tamra and Simon's breakup
• 44:03 Sophia being back on the show
• 46:47 Post Simon divorce
• 48:17 Sidney's story
• 57:51 Tamra as a puppet master
• 1:12:25 Is she good for reality tv/is reality tv good for her?

Transcript

 Hello, hello, our unhinged friends. I'm Jenny, a reality TV producer in Los Angeles. And I'm Sam. I'm a psychotherapist in New York city. We're best friends and Bravo super fans. And we're here to take you behind the scenes into the minds and lives of your favorite reality TV stars. This is unhinged. And on camera.

Jenny: Hi, everyone. Welcome back. We hope you all enjoyed our last podcast with Jamie Stein 

Sam: . And we want to thank Jamie again for taking his time to dive in with us and how interesting is Shannon and how much are we seeing a lot of things we were saying play out

Jenny: yeah, I think last week's episode with Heather and the photo she's definitely doing a good job of twisting a DUI in her favor 

Sam: [00:01:00] I think it's really interesting because I think Jon and Alexis and even Tamra are doing Shannon really big favors by being there and being the way they are because it is allowing her to gain a lot of, doing Shannon favors in like her. Inner child, inner whatever that is that wants that attention and wants that sympathy and wants to be taken care of.

They are doing her all the favors to get those needs met and none of the favors in like really deeper work around self awareness and self accountability and I think us as a viewing audience and struggling to understand whether she is taking accountability or whether she is using that vulnerability in a more manipulative way.

Jenny: . And also big news in the Bravoverse Jax has shared on Instagram. He's been diagnosed with bipolar and PTSD, . 

Sam: There's [00:02:00] bipolar one and bipolar two, so we don't really know which one and they each have a different conglomerate of symptoms and severity. Unclear and PTSD is like a really I don't I have a big question mark with that. diagnosis just because he isn't clarified like what the traumatic event is.

I think PTSD can be become like a psycho babble easy thing for people to use in response to going through difficult things in their lives. And I'm really curious to see what plays out in the season and what led to him being in a mental health treatment facility. And maybe it will give us a little more context to these diagnosis and what's going on with him. 

Jenny: I think Sheena hinted at her podcast that something else happened that spurred him going into rehab, which I was also assuming something happened, I

Sam: I think everyone was right?

Jenny: Yeah, and I think in general, like the Bravo verse right now is doing a really good job of keeping the leaks

To a minimum. And so it's making me [00:03:00] really excited to watch a lot of these shows.

Jax did a podcast on his like, when reality hits podcast about his diagnosis, being in rehab. He's with a life coach which is interesting, but it's, it really gets into his experience. And I think. I thought I heard a change, Jax, but that change doesn't happen overnight. I heard someone who seemed at a rock bottom and trying to figure it out.

I do applaud him for openly saying he's been diagnosed with bipolar and like dealing with that diagnosis head on because I can imagine that's really difficult. But if You guys want to listen to our pod about Jax, I think we hit on a lot of things that kind of go along with what he was talking about on his pod, potentially with the diagnosis, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, and I'm also just interested to see someone on Bravo that's been diagnosed with bipolar and how the show handles it, how the network handles it, how [00:04:00] Jax handles it.

Again, our final questions, is it going to be, is reality TV still going to be good for him?

Sam: , maybe we mentioned this before and maybe people are already thinking about it, that concern about the way Jax is talking about mental health and his mental health can be really useful and de stigmatizing. As long as it's coming from a more authentic place. And I think the big concern is we know he has this sort of snake timer.

If you go back to our episode, we talk about like the snake term or a part of his personality that, could be using mental health in a way to gain sympathy and gain some sort of forgiveness arc or right. I think that's the big concern and the big question mark and we'll have to see how it plays out and I don't want to make any sweeping statements or judgments about it right now.

Jenny: Yeah, we'll definitely do a follow up. In happier news, I got a very sketchy email that I have no way to verify the truth of where it broke down our stats as a podcast and it said we were number one in [00:05:00] Trinidad and Tobago in the film and TV department or whatever.

Sam: We love our Trinidadian, our Tobagoans, we love you, our fan base. We will do our first live episode there.

Jenny: We already picked the beach where the first live episode in Trinidad and Tobago is going to go down for all the unhinged unicorns. We finally found a name for ourselves.

Sam: Or urchins, unicorns and urchins.

Jenny: The urchins might've been what attracted the Trinidad and Tobagoans because. It's an

Sam: It's, yeah.

Jenny: We actually might need to go back to urchins. Anyways, getting into the main topic of our podcast today, that was a lot of 

Sam: weaning and waxing.

Jenny: main topic of our podcast today is we're rounding out our OC series with OC airing, we've been doing a lot of people from , Real Housewives of Orange County, and today we had a request from a listener, [00:06:00] April, so thank you for putting this in, asking us to do Tamra Judge, and we did Heather and touched on Tamra, we did Shannon and touched on Tamra.

So this week, she's had a lot of controversy. She had this insane plastic surgery where she had an eyebrow lift. And I believe the most insane chemical appeal I've ever seen in my life. 

Sam: She's definitely taking a book from our queen and goddess, Carolyn Stanbury, who, after all of her work done, came out and was real and authentic about that recovery. And I think she saw the praise that she got and was, and is now let me do the same.

Jenny: I think Block by Jax posted something that's Everything I've seen about Tamra Judge's plastic surgery has been against my will. And I feel like that, but I can't stop. It's funny because in those earlier seasons I was like, Oh, there's a lot of skin damage on OC. And then like to watch her go through this chemical peel, I'm like, okay, sunblock [00:07:00] people.

But anyways, and then in the midst of her suffering this horrible chemical peel plastic surgery, Vicky came out on a podcast and said something about her daughter, which sent her into a very

Sam: one of her real trigger points is talking about her daughter, specifically her daughter, Sydney, who she doesn't have contact with or has strained contact with it when there is.

Jenny: . So we have a lot to get into. Let's get into her background. She came in on season three, actually, even though she seems like an OG, she's actually not. But this is early days of Real Housewives of Orange County. When the show was not focused as much on the relationships between But the like between the women and much more focused on the families.

And it was almost played more like what you'd watch on TLC now, like a Sister Wives

Sam: Yeah, I hadn't watched the first maybe seven, six, seven, eight [00:08:00] seasons of OC prior to some of this deep diving 

and when I went back and watched some of those earlier seasons, especially season three and season For the format feels so different than what we see now not just in the quality of what we're seeing being filmed and how it's being filmed and the quality of like their homes and their fashion and those sorts of things, which has changed a lot as well.

But just the way, yeah, like like the way they're showing their lives felt so different. so

Jenny: Yeah, if you watch those early seasons, it's almost like a history into reality TV because those early seasons were about shooting in the family home. They had a lot of on, we call it in the business, on the fly interviews, which is like in the middle of the scene or at the end of the scene. They pull a cast member aside and they go, what do you think about what just happened?

So you're getting interviews in the moment, which I was surprised like. newer Kardashian shows started doing that again. And I was like, Oh, [00:09:00] now on the fly interviews are back suddenly. But there's also a lot of interviews. It's a lot more just showing up at people's houses and filming and making a show.

So it's really different. I thought it was refreshing to look at those old episodes, but the style is a bit dated. 

Sam: And their homes are really dated. Like for these like really fancy, rich homes, they are so dated and tacky. And the just, yeah, the home decor is rough.

Jenny: So Tamara is married to Simon when she joins the show 

Sam: She is the hot housewife. This is how she introduces herself to us that I am this almost like Barbie doll arm candy. I am this wife. That's, I'm the hot one. I'm the young one. I'm the sexy one. She, I think her first, one of her first scenes, she's like in the pool in a bikini watching her children play and just strutting up to the pool and sitting there like in some like [00:10:00] sexy kind of pose.

Pose and her bikini with her boobs. And I think they talk about boobs. And then she's I have these three children with Simon. And so she goes through her children. And interestingly in that, she talks about Sophia as the baby. This is my baby. Then she talks about what's the middle boy's name.

Jenny: Spencer,

Sam: Spencer and how he's her, her golden child that like, he's my little baby boy. And then this is Sydney. She's eight. Which is interesting given what we know about that, that relationship moving forward that there isn't like an affectionate name she gives for Sydney, which is, at the this is her like first or second scene on the show.

And then we find about out about Ryan who's her older child who she had in a first marriage as a teenager. 

Jenny: The primary conflict that first season is between Simon and Ryan, who's 21. He had just turned 21. that Simon thinks that Tamara's too easy on Ryan, but also that Ryan [00:11:00] used to live with them, but then Simon felt that Ryan wasn't , doing all the things that he required of him.

So he sent him to live with Tamara's mother, but now he needed to come back to live with them. And that was, and basically

Sam: It feels like the conflict kind of begins because Ryan is moving back in with Simon, and there's a lot of talk about how Ryan in the past has caused relationship issues between Tamra and Simon, which to me reminds me of a lot of things we're saying about Shannon around like scapegoating relationship problems onto like different things.

And so I'm sure like this issue with Ryan is real and clearly their marriage issues are way more deep than just Ryan.

Jenny: It was fascinating to watch that first season, the power struggle that was going on between Simon and Ryan. And I'd love your take. Cause. I thought it was almost like Freudian

Sam: Oh my god. It's like, Tamra feels like she wants to get Simon to have this relationship with [00:12:00] Ryan, Ryan wants to get, Tamra to take care of him in a certain way, and then it is causing this Friction between Tamara and Simon.

It's such classic triangulation. It is crazy to watch. Like it should be studied by family therapists, I think, because it's just fascinating.

Jenny: yeah. And there's a lot of hints of how Tamara's this hot housewife and what's it like for Ryan to have this hot mom and they go to the bar and she's dancing on Simon and dancing on Ryan. And it's it feels like a Greek tragedy in the making or something. I'm like the

Sam: Oedipal, here's all Oedipus, right? Rewritten, Oedipus rewritten.

Jenny: Yeah, I'm like, what is happening? And Ryan is doing all of these things to poke at Simon, to be like, no I control her. I own her. And Simon's doing the same thing. And neither of them are backing down. And it's fascinating to [00:13:00] watch. 

Sam: What I was feeling when I was watching it is like Simon had a very particular idea of like where Ryan should be in his life, which did feel valid, like underneath it felt very valid. Like he's 21. He should be taking care of himself in a certain way.

He should like there are certain things he should be doing that he wasn't doing and that Tamra was coddling and Clearly trying to protect him and they clearly have a like codependent relationship. There's like definitely a codependence both even Tamara talks about it when she talks about I had him at 18.

I had these big dreams to go to college and do all these things. But then I decided to keep this baby and then it was just me and him and we did everything together. Everything together. It was just me and him until Simon came into the picture. And so there was a real, it feels like co dependence that probably existed.

 Then Simon comes in the picture, and he can now take on dad role, and Ryan is like no I don't have a parent I'm supposed to be, like, treated as equal, and Simon's coming in.

And being like, No, you're the kid and we're the [00:14:00] parents, but it's very hard because he's not a kid anymore. He's an adult now. And so that line between where we treat children, adult children as adults, but also expect a certain level of respect, especially when we are financially taking care of them or doing certain things for them.

So I really get where Simon was coming from. And it's so tricky, I imagine with these like blended families where it's he's not. He's not Ryan's dad and there's clear guilt Tamra feels about Ryan not having the things that her children she had with Simon have

Jenny: There's a great party scene where one of the children has this big birthday party and she comments that it must be hard for Ryan to see all this when his childhood was quite the opposite. It was like, ramen noodles or whatever. And I agree that I think Simon is being reasonable at 21 you should be having a job and like living on your own and not being dependent on your mom.

Sam: Right? There's something, [00:15:00] Ryan does act like a child even in those scenes that we see, I'm like, when I think of myself as a 21 year old I wouldn't I would never say, or, and I guess I have like lots of feelings about Ryan as like a person. He's, he just seems like a very difficult person.

Jenny: He does seem like a very difficult person and I, and actually Tamra kind of hints at that Simon never really took him on as like his son in the way that he should have and that

Sam: is an interesting should, right? That's an interesting should, because one, did she allow him to? Because even in this moment, it feels like he is trying to be a dad to this guy. But he's not being the dad that Tamra thinks he should be. And that's where things get complicated, and it's clear that there isn't this There was never a conversation or agreed upon rules and boundaries of what Simon's role would be with Ryan and what would be appropriate and what would be inappropriate.

And if Tamara is expecting him to be a dad to [00:16:00] Ryan can she expect him to give Ryan the same kind of love that she's giving him? Because even with me and my husband thinking about my kid, like we parent differently. We have different relationships with my kid. And that, and I can't. I always do, but I can't expect him to treat my son the same way that I do as a mother.

And, it's just different. And so it feels like there's a lot of shoulds and don'ts. Underlying all of this that aren't being talked about and aren't being resolved and create all this untalked about stuff that then instead of dealing with that, there's just this like pointing fingers and triangulation that's happening.

Jenny: Yeah, and Tamara opens the season by saying it's driven me and Simon to the brink of divorce. But watching that first season, it does seem like Ryan is the problem. Like throughout

Sam: Ryan is capitalizing on this, right? He's I see that Simon wants to be [00:17:00] this kind of dad and I don't like it. I don't like the boundaries. I don't like the limits. And so I see that, like, when he does that and I get upset, Tamara, my mom takes my side and that benefits me. And so it feels like in a lot of ways, like you were saying, he's poking and prodding and almost like creating issues, it does feel like he is because he capitalizes, he gains from that, right?

Like he gets his needs met when they're fighting.

He wouldn't get to be coddled, he wouldn't get to be taken care of in the way that like, Tamara has for all these years, and I don't know how much we've seen in present seasons about that relationship and how much she's taking care of him.

But I've imagined along the way up until today, she still does take care of him a lot. 

 I guess it was her third season is really when her and Simon's relationship starts to fall apart, right?

Sam: . Before you go to that season, I feel like in season four, what's interesting that happens is in comes Gretchen, Simon has left his job. So this kind of like role and setup of a relationship that Tamara and Simon have [00:18:00] of he is this financial provider and provides this specific life for me.

So I can be a housewife and I get to work, I can do my real estate, but there's no pressure on it. And he can provide this thing, which is the reason I stayed this like house, this life for me and my children. This is why I stay in this role. And in this marriage has now like in this, fourth season, we start to see that breakdown, right?

He left his job, he's not able to provide in the same way, he's home a lot more, and then in comes Gretchen, and she has this rich boyfriend, and you can see this rivalry that almost happens with this new hot housewife that comes in who has a rich boyfriend. It almost feels like Gretchen is coming in and trying to like get her.

usurp this identity that Tamra was building on the show for herself. And I think it puts Tamra in this sort of threatened, fearful position. And I think it causes more issues with Simon. I think it causes, it's part of what causes issues between her and Gretchen. And then we still see a lot of [00:19:00] Ryan coming in.

I think this is the season where we see him talk about his like Jealousy towards Tamara and Simon's kids and feeling unfair and so even though it doesn't feel like quite as much happens this season, we get a lot of context of what's breaking down to lead to that fifth season where the marriage really deteriorates.

Jenny: Yeah, I think Simon says he quit because he wanted to spend more time with the family, because he was like working so much. But it is interesting because when he quits his job, it does feel like it's related to the show.

Like they know Tamara's got the show. bringing in decent money. Maybe even his job was starting to be affected by them being on the show. It seemed to me with him quitting his job that he liked her being on the show. It seemed like he went back and forth. I think that first season was probably difficult because having cameras in your home is just difficult for the first time.

I think the next season he was like, Oh, we're actually making money from this and I don't need to work 24 seven. I can do this. see my kids. I'm quitting my job. And then the [00:20:00] next season after that, the table start turning because Tamar has more of the financial power in the relationship because he's not really bringing in money.

I think he also has this tequila venture that he's trying to do. So in real time, the effects of a reality TV show coming into a family system because they had a very clear role. Like Simon was a breadwinner. Tamra did as was expected. Yeah,

Sam: and now that whole system they had that set up that was keeping them together is broken down because of the show, right? The show gives Tamra a sense of independence, it's helping her build a sense of identity outside of Simon. And I think we really see that being established this season and her figuring that out.

And I think Gretchen coming in as part of that because Gretchen is a symbol of what Tamara also wants to be. I also think Vicky is a big part of it as well because I think Vicky is this like very assertive, she's [00:21:00] dominant in her relationship. She has, a job. She is the financial breadwinner in her situation.

And I think Tamara sees these different things and is trying to figure out Who am I when I see these different women in the world?

Jenny: Yeah, with Vicky, I feel like there's a lot of issues between Simon and Vicky that then Tamra's put in the middle of. But essentially, Simon is

Sam: I disagree. I think Tamara puts Vicky in the middle of

Jenny: oh of course,

Sam: problems.

Jenny: oh of course, I mean from Simon

Sam: Again, scapegoating and projecting and doing all these things to avoid real accountability of I'm not in love with this person and I want to now be my own person. And I don't want to say it. So instead I'm going to put the issues out on everything else.

Jenny: yeah, I think Tamra's perspective is like Vicky's in the middle of my relationship, but it's no, you did this. And also Simon's putting her there because Tamara's just going and venting essentially to her friend Vicky and Vicky's giving her [00:22:00] you know, advice that she would give anyone and then Simon somehow finds out about it and is spiraling out of control.

 Now we're in the fifth season, Alexis Bellino has also joined the cast and Simon's taking a look at all these relationships and diagnosing okay, either the man is in charge or the woman's in charge.

And he looks at Vicki and Don's relationship and vicky's in charge and that goes against like how I fundamentally believe that the men need to be in charge and they need to be alphas and it breaks down the ethos of the whole show where it's like a lot of these women came on, they were the beta to their husband's alpha, they start making money, they become the alpha and their relationships break down and you see it play out in real time which is really interesting.

Sam: Yeah, I feel like in season five, it starts off with Simon being really upset about sexual comments that Tamara makes and it feels like what he Initially, in those first two seasons was like excited to see Oh, I have the sexy wife and she's mine. [00:23:00] He's now Oh, wait, I built this thing up and now it's like this monster.

I can't control anymore. And so now he's going to more intense ways of trying to regain control that. can be, I don't want to label because we only get little snippets of it, but they can be perceived as like almost abusive and controlling and unhealthy. Like any of those words might fit, I don't think his intention was to be abusive.

And I think You hear language that can border on that in the way that he's trying to like control and manage almost like this monster that he created by allowing her or, and I say allowing her because it feels like that is the dynamic they had, allowing her to be on the show that he gained from, but now he has totally lost control over and is you're so low class, you're being rude.

Like he's, really trying to bring her in. She's not allowed to go on overnight. She's not allowed to go on trips without him. And then it just seems like he's really trying to reign in something that now he realizes, oh shit, [00:24:00] I've lost control over this.

Jenny: Yeah, it seems like he's living early seasons living in the comment section. I think he's been like, oh, my wife is portrayed like this on tv and she needs to eat.

Sam: Oh, I disagree that it's about comment section because I think it is way more about like this life that he realized is now at threat because of her fame and money and independence.

Jenny: think it's both. I think that he is very, What she says on the show how she says it and even like now more in recent days I know Sydney her daughter is also upset about some of the things she does on the show and says on the show So I think it's both I think he would portray it like I don't like that You say these things on the show But the deeper understanding is what is happening with him losing control of their relationship, him losing control of her, like bigger picture things.

But I do think he didn't like this, the comments, the boobs out. I think there's a lot, there was a famous scene in Lake [00:25:00] Havasu, I think, where she was like tits out and he was like freaking out.

Sam: I wonder what season that was, but

Jenny: That was like season four, I want to say. Again, when she

Sam: the season of this kind of like we're seeing like, I like it. Oh, no, it's too much. I like it. It's too much. And we see Simon figuring out that maybe this beast is getting out of my control.

Jenny: well, and I think Tamara's loving the attention of the cameras and the fame. And I think he's sometimes in the moment being present and sometimes Oh, there's a camera like. Contain. But I think he was probably like that also before the cameras. I can imagine they, they apparently met at a bar and she was like, Simon was very reserved, but then he had some drinks and loosened up and those early seasons she's always trying to ply him with alcohol and you do see a different, a Simon that's more relaxed and she's always trying to get him to be relaxed, have a shot, relax and I, so I can imagine in a dinner party setting, in a bar setting with other couples, she would probably make that offhanded comment.

And I'm sure I see couples like this all the time where the husband's more reserved and the wife is very outgoing [00:26:00] and then the wife makes a comment and the husband's oh, contain yourself. And that is a terrible relationship by the way.

Sam: It's so interesting that you're bringing up this idea of him getting, having more drinks enabled him to like, come out of a shell and enabled him to come out of be more fun, be more present, because we see that dynamic with her with other women, right?

We see it with her with Gretchen, she tries to get her naked waisted come on, have fun. We see it with her now with all of this Shannon stuff in her Upset about Shannon's drinking and I think you mentioned this when we talked about Shannon was what I correct me. You can totally correct me however you were saying it, but like this feeling that her resentment towards Shannon about not being able to, about having this DUI and really not drinking is that like now they can't have fun together.

And so this idea that alcohol becomes this thing that like, and I think she did some interview where she said, I only drink on the show to loosen up or to like, And so clearly she has this idea of what [00:27:00] alcohol does for her and for the people around her that allow them to take some guards down.

If we can go back a little, I did some research on Tamara's family history and she talked a little bit about how her dad was an alcoholic.

Jenny: Oh, really?

Sam: about her mom having a lot of like mental illness and being hospitalized. She talks a lot about how there wasn't a lot of like affection and love in her family growing up.

And so it makes me think about, like, how guarded she is about things because of this family history, and how alcohol allows her to maybe let down some of those guards, and how maybe she feels that with the people around her if they aren't if they aren't able to loosen up in this, these ways, are they going, are we going to have a good time together?

Are we going to have fun? And how much, how important that feels for her to have that more fun, lighthearted experience with people.

Jenny: I think that oftentimes she pushes the limit in a way that's entertaining great for reality tv And I think having a couple shots having a couple [00:28:00] drinks Allows her to at least have that excuse of being like, oh we were drinking and having fun And I don't necessarily think that's unhealthy.

It's just interesting to watch in the early seasons how much Alcohol has always played a huge role of her personality on the show. I can't imagine a Tamra that just stopped drinking and wasn't. She, I don't know, even that season she came back recently, she would get really drunk and fly off the handle at Jen, and then be like, oh, I was just drunk.

And it does feel like she can't shoot the show without drinking. And it's interesting that she's throwing all that on Shannon but don't see you coming on the show and not doing a wine tasting.

Sam: But because of Shannon's dysregulation, it almost protects her from looking like she has a problem with alcohol because Shannon's behavior can be so much more dysregulated and intense than hers, that now that Shannon is not drinking the same amount and maybe is in more, and yeah, we don't really know what Shannon's recovery is we want to be mindful of the harm [00:29:00] reduction model, that she may not be sober, but she may be trying to manage her alcohol in a different way.

Okay. But that it leaves more room for people to start turning their eyes at how Tamra is using alcohol, or, right?

Jenny: yeah, I don't necessarily think that Tamara's doing anything while drinking that she wouldn't do when sober. I think it just gives her liquid courage. I think she would yell at Jen about Ryan and their situation. She would do her truth teller act regardless. She would get on the table and dance.

With the boobs out. Anyways, I think it just gives her the freedom to do that and

Sam: Maybe, but would she do it as much? Would she if it is giving her liquid courage, and if it is enabling her to be less inhibited then would she do all those things as much? Yeah, I think there's a part of her that would do them to an extent, but Would it be as television worthy? And maybe, I wonder if that's something she holds for herself, that this allows me to be bigger and louder 

Jenny: so it's interesting that [00:30:00] you brought up Simon and the control element and didn't want to say abuse or not abuse. What was interesting is, on that we'll get into the breakup scene because I want to break that down because there is like a scene almost where they fully break up, Simon and Tamra, but in the reunion after that, Andy says, his control was a form of abuse and I thought that was a, again, early seasons, Andy saying that was a bold thing, but I also think that really hurt Simon I think, and probably influenced a lot of what happens in their divorce after that, 

Sam: like, it does feel like they did have this initial relationship. Whether it was, an implicit or explicit agreement that she was gonna behave this way and he was gonna bring in the money.

And yes, his behavior was very controlling, but how much did Tamara co signed that for so many years that then she flips the script and now he looks like he's doing too much, but really is this who he's always been in the [00:31:00] relationship and now she's just changed and said, I'm not okay with it, but she's not actually saying I'm not okay with it.

Jenny: Yeah, I could see a world where her children, and I don't know if they would ever re watch the show, but there's times when I relate to Simon. I'm like what he's saying about Ryan is 100 percent correct. At some point, he, has a suspended license. They don't say the reason for that, but I have to imagine it's alcohol related or something

Sam: Or reckless driving. It's something that he did because he was acting within this like place of I don't get in trouble for things. And then I do.

Jenny: yeah, he lost his license. It's got to be something pretty serious. And then, He takes Tamra's car and drives to Los Angeles. I don't think anything happens. It's more that he took the car and then they get into a Facebook argument, which this is early days of Bravo. So they don't show us the Facebook argument, which was really frustrating.

But they get into a Facebook argument. And I guess Ryan's point is like nothing bad [00:32:00] happened. And it's You know, Simon's point is these cars are insured under my name. If you got in a car accident and you were driving in a suspended license, like A, you're going to jail and B,

Sam: I'm liable. I'm liable.

Jenny: I'm liable. So he's totally reasonable.

And asking Ryan to get a job, . Seems very reasonable. 

Sam: Not seeing anything he's asking of Ryan that seems unreasonable. And,

Jenny: it breaks down when Ryan stops being the main scapegoat and Tamara and Simon actually have to deal with their issues. , 

Sam: I totally agree, the core issue here that gets scapegoated onto Vicky, onto Ryan, onto everyone, is that they no longer Want like Tamara no longer wants to be in the role of traditional wife and Simon really needs her to be and needs to feel in control of his wife and his partner, which, for me, isn't okay.

But I'm sure there are many women who are okay with being more in a traditional role in their marriages. But if you don't, then that becomes a huge [00:33:00] conflict that can't be resolved. But it doesn't feel like it's ever really talked about. And I want to go into that. Can we go into that like final scene? Is it in a limo?

Is that what they're in?

Jenny: Yeah, they're going to

Sam: in limos on Housewives.

Jenny: limos are where everything

Sam: What, limos, boats, and Sprinter vans. Like, all the modes of transportation are, we need cameras on at all times.

Jenny: So it's the big finale party. And they're heading there and in the reunion, Tamra says they had been fighting all day and basically when the camera crew came, they were even like, holy crap, could cut the tension with a knife and yeah, they go into this limo and they

Sam: is starting to talk about, like, how Tamara's changed in the past two years, which, coincidentally, is the two years she's been on the show he starts to scapegoat Vicky and say she's part of the problem your friendship with her is the problem and that he starts to insinuate I need you to be home with the kids and you're not home with the [00:34:00] kids, so this feels like a first moment where it's okay, he's insinuating And we don't know how much of this is true or how much of it is his narrative that she is not being a present mom.

And I think that's really interesting. I think that's a big point of contention between the two of them is he has an expectation of her role as a mom. And that must be a real ego wound for her to feel like you're basically saying I'm a bad mom.

Jenny: And even before this whole breakdown, Tamara says, I really want to be a real estate agent. I want to have a job. I want to be a working woman. And Simon's always it's fine if you do your real estate thing, but as long as it doesn't take away from your time with the kids, that's the most important that you're present and home with the kids constantly.

And when he quits his job, Tamara's at least bringing in the money? And. There's their financial situation really broke down. A lot of the women on OC seemed to like suddenly lose a lot of money. And I think Tamra's situation is glazed over more than I know Lynn Curtin, [00:35:00] like they got served an eviction notice.

What happened with Tamra and Simon is they short sold their house. They were basically in foreclosure and the bank was forcing them to sell and I feel like that has got to be a serious toll on any relationship. And I think it's insane that he says two years and it's the exact amount of time that they've been on the show.

But basically when he says the bit about the kids, she completely breaks down and just the mask comes off and she's I want to.

Sam: She starts calling him vile, disgusting, and gets she almost becomes then really, starts using really intense language towards him.

Jenny: And then the rest of the party, when they finally arrive, Tamra's like trying not to cry. Actually, it's very powerful to watch this

Sam: the point where they do the hug? Is that before or after the party?

Jenny: before. So they get out of the

Sam: hug is so I don't know if you or other people are familiar with the cycles of abuse which I think can happen at [00:36:00] any level of abuse from like minor to more severe, which is basically when like you have this like tension building, then there's like an escalation and things explode like a huge fight like they're having in this Limousine and then after the explosion is a honeymoon period where there's a lot of one partner trying to make up for all of the abuse assure them that things are going to be different and it feels like in this moment, Simon's giving her this hug.

And he's trying to repair things in a way that they probably have always repaired things in the past and gone into that honeymoon phase. And you can just feel that she's done with this cycle. And it's so uncomfortable. I, the hug is the thing that stands out to me of this most because I just felt so Icky with them in that hug.

Like you could tell she was feeling like violated in the hug. Like she didn't want to be there. And he is so desperately trying to hold on to this like system and this cycle and this person and this idea that is like long gone.

Jenny: [00:37:00] Yeah, and she mentions like the hug is, she feels a way to silence her. She's he's trying

Sam: into that honeymoon phase. Yeah, it's going. It's that denial and honeymoon. Denial honeymoon.

Jenny: And then as she enters the party, she's basically like living in fear that this horrible fight has occurred and she can't tell anyone and she really wants to and Simon is chasing her around this party , making sure that she's just Oh, how are you? How are you doing? Not dropping any hints of this horrible fight that just happened in the limo and it's painful to watch.

And when she finally breaks down and talks to Vicky, she says, I'm scared of him. I, the reason I'm not telling you things, the reason I'm choosing him over you is not because, it is also because he's my husband and I feel I have to, but it's more because I'm scared of him. And then you see him approach and it's almost like the jaws, like him coming and you're like, Oh God, this is going to be so bad.

And you just watch him unravel.

Sam: like [00:38:00] I'm like seeing this fight unfold and thinking like about how their young children are going to have access to this. And it makes so much sense that there's such like division between the children and society. side choosing and all of that because clearly their children have seen all of this and heard about all of this and like how much there is this like sort of demon like one parent is bad and one parent is good and there's like neither of them are good or bad but there's like him saying she's a bad mom and putting out that narrative then her putting out a narrative that he's abusive and controlling and All of it may be true to some extent, but as a therapist, and as like, when you're working with families, working to co parent, the one thing that's most important is making sure that what the kids believe about their parents is neutral.

That you are not influencing what the kids know about what's transpiring. between you and your partner because that doesn't really involve the kids. If Simon is a controlling asshole to Tamra, that doesn't [00:39:00] affect the kids unless, he's doing that to the children, which we don't know what kind of father he is, because we don't actually see too much of that now that I'm thinking about it, except for with Ryan, which I feel like it's hard to say how he is as a parent, because to me, I just saw like boundaries.

And I think that's actually a really healthy way to be a parent. But I get why. And we can get into Sydney after this Sydney is I, the show, it killed your relationship, both with Simon and with us, because you let out this stuff that like, should not be seen by children, right?

For us as viewers, it's fun and it's interesting and it's exciting and it's drama. But thinking about being in the position of her children, seeing your parents I would have hated to see my parents like be on the inside of what happened between my parents divorce. And as I've gotten older, I know more, but I am old enough now to be able to

Jenny: Process it.

Sam: process it, understand it through a mature lens [00:40:00] where what she's Sydney's 10 when this is happening.

And I don't know, like, when she. Got information about it, but like those are young ages for kids to try to process like these big adult experiences that have nuance and that are not black and white.

Jenny: I totally agree. I think something you said was, it both could be true. I see Simon as probably, he had a very stable household. He had very regimented rules. That's really great for children. But I also think there's great areas. I think that he was controlling and sometimes that did border on some kind of abuse.

As, and I think Tamara needed to be free and as I was saying earlier about that couple, within your circle where the husband's always chastising the wife, that's dimming her light, and I think Tamara has a huge star power, huge light, being with someone who is dimming her light, It probably caused her to be very dysregulated and very dramatic and up and down.

And that probably, for a child, they could see their father being [00:41:00] very stable and their mother being very instable and, make decisions based on that. But that doesn't mean that Simon wasn't also dimming her light and she wasn't being able to be her true self. So it's a lot of gray area.

And I think

Sam: But I also the nuance of that part of Simon dimming her light is. I think about her coming from this home of parents who didn't show love. It seemed very unstable. It seemed very unhealthy. And then she gets into this relationship with Simon who can financially take care of her, right? Like she's, was a single mom, , yeah, ramen noodles, living in an apartment.

She sees Simon, he is an out from this life that she had and a sense of stability and security. And yes, he may have dimmed her light and she made a choice. to be with someone like that because she was looking for some sort of security from the places that she was before. So she was also responsible for the dimming.

And then when she found the show and she was able to shine her light, there clearly wasn't work done between her [00:42:00] and Simon to talk about how that was going to change their relationship and what that might look like. And there was no acknowledgement from either of them. As their relationship ended that this show did end our marriage and it's not a good or a bad thing It's both

Jenny: So in the reunion, she says something really telling. She says, I knew that me and Simon were not going to work five years ago, right before I had Sophia. It was, and then we had our last child. And she basically

Sam: house. That's that's I don't know if I would have admitted that Like I don't know there's something about that feels so icky that you're saying like I knew I wasn't going to, this wasn't going to work. And then I had another child with this person. 

Jenny: I feel like I've heard

Sam: thing to save your marriage? Sure. You heard it, but some things should like, not be for public consumption.

Jenny: It's interesting because in fairness, I don't think she was saying she had Sophia to save her marriage. She's saying she knew that it wasn't going to work and then they had their last child and she felt, I [00:43:00] have three children and I need to financially support and give them a stable home, something I couldn't do for Ryan.

So she stuck it out. I don't think she was saying to save the marriage. Though, to be fair, I feel a lot of couples do this. I don't think that this is completely, I think it's an experience that people probably watched on TV and they were like, I know someone in my friend circle who has done

Sam: I guess I'm seeing it from like the kid's perspective and I'm feeling like, I guess because of how much the kids are implicated in all of this, I feel so protective of those children and from both parents because I think both parents have been manipulative and problematic in how they've managed their co parenting and their separation and not necessarily fully acknowledging the.

Impact this has on the children. And I know she says she has put the kids in therapy and different things. And so I'm glad, all of that feels good. And we see the benefits of that because we see in the most recent season where Sophia comes in and Tamra's kind of just like pouring her feelings and her problems onto Sophia.

And Sophia's you need a therapist [00:44:00] mom. And she's you're my therapist. And Sophia's no, I'm not like, I have boundaries. And that speaks to a kid who has worked with someone and clearly has been able to know her boundaries and That makes me happy that there has been some protection of these children in some form along the way, but I guess I feel this other layer of protection because, and maybe it should be talked about more like what the implication on on young, of like becoming a reality star with young children, like what that has on these kids and that you're making a choice That could be damaging to children.

Jenny: And I think, from Sidney's perspective, being 10, going into middle school, that's a very fragile age, and I think, she could easily look at it and say, I had this sort of idyllic family life where we had these big parties and my dad and my mom were in the same house, and maybe they don't even remember that much of that, the fighting and the constant, issues, and then the show comes in and all of a sudden their parents are divorced.

Their whole lives are blown up, and it can be easy to also scapegoat [00:45:00] the show. Not saying that's totally unfair, I'm just saying it is easy to say that the show is the problem. But essentially, what Tamara's saying is, I never wanted to be with Simon. I wanted to leave him. The show just gave me financial freedom to do that.

And so if they're going to scapegoat the show, it's really about the money and the freedom that provided

Sam: And scapegoating the show is because it's not acknowledging in a similar way. And I think I said this when I talked about Simon and Tamra decided having these explosions is like they're constantly blaming the show or Vicky or someone else when the real problem is the core between them and their different needs and identities.

That the show catalyzed for Tamra, but was in Tamra all along, and I don't know what that would have looked like had she not been on the show, it may have looked very different, or it could have looked similar, like maybe she could have had a burgeoning real estate career that would have allowed her to gain the financial stability to leave the marriage.

And. It would have probably had [00:46:00] different implications if that's how she left on the children than her being on a reality show because of what that exposes about the family in a way that children don't have consent to say I'm okay with. You have

Jenny: I guess after the show, they split up, she ends up meeting Eddie, they have a famous bathtub scene where they introduce their relationship in a very sexual way, although Tamara's always been boobs out. So people talk about that as being controversial, but I'm like, that kind of fit in with her brand perfectly.

And the kids are splitting time between what we know is basically Simon pulls the kids from the show. Because when you're on a reality show, both parents have to sign off on underage children being on the show. Simon refused to continue to sign off on that, which in some ways I almost thought

Sam: It makes sense since he was being portrayed as an abuser I get maybe why he's I don't want to have my kids on there and have this risk of [00:47:00] that puts a lot of liability out there for him in custody battles and in these sorts of things. So to protect that, it may feel like this is what he had to do.

Jenny: Which I think if he had came back on the show, maybe we would have seen other sides to him and maybe they could have made a better co parenting relationship. It seemed like the show definitely had a huge impact on, maybe how he was viewed in the community. I think that comes up a lot in OC where it's, obviously, John Janssen thinks his whole reputation's been ruined where sometimes I, it's tough because it's like when you pull yourself from the show, that's your history.

It's, it lives forever on, Peacock app, but, if you continue on the show, you can, That's the, it's like the finger trap. Do you stay on the show and try to revive and, show a different side of yourself? Or do you just leave and say, okay, I made this mistake and now it's going to live on forever and I'm just going to work in my private life to establish a new reputation?

I'm sure that was very difficult for Simon, especially with all the allegations out there. And I can imagine how that affected the kids and having to make a choice. [00:48:00] But basically, Sidney has disowned Tamra in recent years. But she wrote a Facebook post at some point. where she describes her, from her perspective, why she disowned Tamra and we, it's the only time we really get her perspective in all of this.

And she says that when she, when the parents divorced, she chose Tamra's side. They were living with Tamra, which is strange that they felt that they even had a decision in that. They shouldn't have

Sam: Which maybe felt also a little bit of a product of the show and a product of their personalities of you have to choose a side. And I do think the show fed into that narrative of Simon's bad, Tamara's good, Tamara's bad, Simon's good, like this black and white side choosing, which is where I was coming from about my concerns about how that impacts kids, especially around separation and co parenting.

Jenny: And I think the court system sets that up, too, because, when they're in a custody battle, that's what's going to play out. So she was living with Tamara and [00:49:00] basically says that, she felt that Tamara was neglectful of them, not, feeding them, not taking care of them, not being present in their lives, and they were just fending for themselves, which is, Not untypical of a single mom who's trying to make her way on her own for financially for the first time and Also that Tamra was emotionally abusive in that whenever Sidney would do some she didn't like Tamra would call her mini Simon and that was the thing that was thrown around a lot and it was over that period of time that she had conflict with Tamra and chose on her own to go live with Simon , and then Tamara talks a lot, about how Sydney doesn't want her on the show, doesn't like her on the show, wants her to be different on the show, something that Simon also complained about.

And at some point Sydney did invite her to her high school graduation and I guess had asked her don't post about this. I think Tamra felt She needed to show people, no I'm working on this relationship.

Sam: But it's such a [00:50:00] violation, right? Like your kid asks so many things of you, you don't do them. And I think you asked a good question of is it okay? Should she quit the show because her kid has asked her to? And I don't think that like parents should make decisions just because their kids want them to.

And there's a certain point where she continually violates you. Sydney's boundaries of not talking about her on the show, not not posting like different things that feel like, at what point is it like, okay, like I get why Sydney has to have these boundaries with her because. If she doesn't, she'll continue to feel violated.

Jenny: Yeah, I think Vicky on this podcast this week that sent Tamara spiraling said the thing most fans have been thinking, honestly, which is, if your kid is, if you're distraught over not having this relationship with your kid. All she wants you to do is not be on the show. Why don't you just quit the show or those two years you were off the show?

Why didn't you just focus on that relationship? And I think Vicki is saying something that a lot of people [00:51:00] I have been thinking, I've probably been saying in Reddit, so it surprised me that it set Tamara off as much as it did, but at the same time it doesn't. But I think on the issue of Sydney even asking her to not be on the show, from my perspective, it is a bit unreasonable because you see that the show has gotten Given Tamra her financial freedom, her freedom to be able to be herself, it's been both positive and negative, but she loves being on the show.

This is her personality. She loves being a , Bravo star. Her doing her podcasts. She loves being in the entertainment industry. You can just see that. So is it fair for a child to say to their mother the thing that brings you the most joy in life, you need to quit to Be with me.

I also don't think that's a fair expectation on her

Sam: But is it also unfair that Tamra, instead of just acknowledging this show is really important to me, so I couldn't leave it for Sidney because it's such a big part of who I am, instead goes into this victim mentality around it of Oh, my daughter doesn't talk to me, and [00:52:00] I don't know what, I don't know why, I don't this sort of you don't know, but You make made a choice and like it's your choice is valid, but there's also an accountability.

You have to take that choice had a consequence and all of our choices in life come with consequence. If she chose to leave the show for Sydney and for that relationship that would have a consequence. So there's no right or wrong decisions we make in life, it is that every choice we make comes with certain benefits and consequences, and we have to accept all of that, and that is part of accountability, and that is part of ownership that we don't see Tamara fully taking here, where it does feel like she's again, willing to like scapegoat and project, and I think at a core, it comes from being in an unhealthy situation in childhood, And never knowing her own boundaries, never knowing her own identity, like kids who are born into families or raised in families where parents are emotionally neglectful tend to struggle with their [00:53:00] identity and with their boundaries 

and we see Tamra have all of these issues and I think the show helps with a lot of it because it's really helped her like build a sense of identity and start to figure out boundaries and things like that. And I think partially it prevents her and we talk about this with Shannon as well of that.

responsibility taking and with that accountability and with that authenticity part of things, because she has to be this character and she has, she it's almost like you capitalize on audience sympathy. And so to sometimes take full accountability, you have to accept that people might be mad at you or not like you.

Because as an audience, we tend to see things black and white, team this, team that, like this, they're good, they're bad. There is, in taking accountability and fully embodying that responsibility, you risk losing audience favor. And I think that Tends to block a lot of these [00:54:00] reality stars from holding true accountability.

I think we're seeing it with Shannon where she's, again, I think Tamra and John and Alexis are doing her a lot of favors because she's still a victim to them. But I think with Tamara, it's very hard for her to truly take accountability in this Sydney thing because she risks looking selfish or like a bad mom for making a choice for herself.

And as a mom myself, I can understand that bind that you get in around wanting to be your own person but also wanting to be a good parent and how those things sometimes can come in conflict with each other.

Jenny: So with Sydney, I feel like, you said something earlier that is so true. When the divorce was happening and the show is filming and, Tamara's becoming fundamentally a different person overnight, that's a lot for a [00:55:00] child to process.

And they also. I don't think they're still so young, like I think Sidney Spencer and Sophia are still so young that was formidable years that fundamentally changed who they are as people and I don't think most adults even start processing or going through that until their 30s or 40s or, deep therapy.

Yeah, or never. Most people never. And it is very impressive to see how Sophia is holding certain boundaries and stuff. And it does seem like her, also her son Spencer had some issue with Ryan over politics. He also seemed really to be holding his

Sam: I actually think there's an interesting triangle between Spencer, Ryan, and Tamra too that I think leads to a lot of conflict. And this is like a sidebar. I think there's a lot of conflict that Ryan and Spencer have in order to try to gain favor from Tamra. If they're getting along, like it doesn't benefit them.

Or when they're in conflict, I think they [00:56:00] get it. certain attention from Tamra that they thrive from, which it's interesting all the triangles that happen in this family and how much it leads to different capital or gain for every individual person and losses for individual people that never is talked about in a it, I would love to do family therapy with all of them.

I think it would be fascinating.

Jenny: It's something that just came up for me is Tamara throughout the whole series is being pushed and pulled by so many different people. Simon wants her to control her and wants her attention. Ryan wants to control her attention. Spencer, Sophia, Sydney, like everyone's pulling her.

And I do think there's. something about her that is very, like a bright light that everyone wants her to shine on them.

Sam: As you're saying that, it makes me think of her role in the show. But like her role in the show sometimes is the like puppet master of the ladies, right? Like she becomes the one who's like kind of telling secrets, telling things, telling people what to do, [00:57:00] fostering conflict and interesting conversations.

And she becomes like almost like this puppet master figure on the show. And I think that's a role that she's played in like. All her life. I think that must be a role she played in her original family. I think it's a role she tries to play with the kids. And I think it's a place that she comes from for her to feel in control of things, right?

Like when she is, like saying the narrative and creating these different stories, then she feels in control of them. Like with, like, how do we avoid talking about my stuff with Sydney? Let me make sure there's other stuff going on. And then I'm still relevant, but I don't actually have to talk about my own And I feel like we see that even with her children and with her marriage and like this like puppeting this stuff with Simon and Ryan at the beginning I'm gonna try to make things happen between them in a certain way, because then I don't have to own my accountability of where I actually need to be aligned with my husband and set boundaries for my child, right?

Instead, I'm going to focus [00:58:00] on what's happening between them and be the puppet there. And it's this way that she like is above the drama and not an above in the way that Heather is above, but above in this way that it doesn't touch me and I feel in control of it.

Jenny: Yeah, I think Jamie Stein always says she has this truth teller in her, which I totally agree that she does have a truth teller. She often is the voice of the audience calling things out. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't work. But

Sam: But with other people and never with herself,

Jenny: That's what, yeah, I think that's where the Sidney issue always comes up for the women.

They're like let's get into your stuff.

Sam: right? You want to tell the truth about our situations. Let's talk the truth about yours.

Jenny: yeah, and

Sam: then she goes dysregulated. This is where we see this because I feel like she doesn't get dysregulated much, but when she gets called out, like in that scene in, is it Bali or where are they? When she runs away frantically from the dinner, like that's a moment she gets called out for being the puppet master.

And. [00:59:00] They're like, let's put our attention on something you're doing. And then in Ireland, when Kelly calls out the thing with the daughter and yeah, she did it in a shitty way because she's Kelly and that's what she does there. Like she goes and is dissociating crying in the van.

. And then in a similar way to Shannon, it's like now we feel sympathy for you that allows you to not ever have to take that accountability.

Jenny: Yeah, going back to the Sydney issue, one thing I want to say, which we've touched upon is for Sydney, the advice I would give her is, to really, Understand that both your parents are both good and bad, and have done both good and bad things, and are complicated people, and are not perfect, and have their own childhoods and their own issues that they need to work on, and the sooner that you accept that, start working on that, and find your own way in life and realize that Everything that happened in your childhood, which may be affecting [01:00:00] you in a positive or negative way now, makes you uniquely who you are, and that is special, and the sooner you go on a path of healing and processing that, , your life will improve greatly because holding this anger and this block of Tamra might be a good choice for her, and it, and I don't know, but I think that there's a huge transition that happens between, Becoming an adult from being a young adult, where you have to accept your parents are not perfect, and that's a really hard thing to go through, and I think that's probably something that Sydney is going through now or

Sam: I think what you're saying is really interesting. I don't totally agree with all of it, but I also don't totally disagree. It feels like you're coming from this place of Tamra's narrative about Sydney that she's angry and that this is it.

And I feel like we don't actually know what. What work Sidney has done or what Sidney feels about Tamra and if that is anger or if it is [01:01:00] just she has accepted Tamra as she is and wants to hold these boundaries like, we don't, we may never and we don't know really what Sidney's experience is experiences besides that one Facebook post that was like many years ago.

Like she may have done a lot of therapy and done a lot of healing work and decided like these are my healthy boundaries. This is where I need to be with my mom. If she's a reality star, like if that is the choice she's going to make, then these are the boundaries I have to hold with her because that makes me feel safe and at peace.

And If that is that, if that is where those boundaries are coming from, I fully support it. You hold the boundaries that make you feel safe, that make you feel empowered, that make you feel good. If there is anger or things that are unresolved, which there probably are because there always are, I hope that she is in some sort of therapeutic process, whatever that looks like for her, to work through those things.

But I don't think she needs to forgive or have any type of relationship with Tamara that she doesn't feel safe or good about.

Jenny: [01:02:00] And I'm not saying that either, I'm just saying for your own self to, accept because I think there has been a huge dichotomy of saying choose team Tamra or choose team Simon. And I think for her

Sam: But again, that's Tamra's narrative. We don't actually know if that's the family narrative, right? Because all we have is what Tamra says about things.

Jenny: , I think I'm holding space for Tamra's narrative because I think right now, no, to be fair, right now the fans are coming for her. I think she's not having a good season with Shannon. I think that this issue with Sidney has always been lurking under the surface.

I think Vicky really said in a podcast what everyone's been thinking, and it really blew up on her, and it's bringing it all back up. I think the Sidney Facebook post, I think her posting when Sidney told her not to was a really bad look. And I'm not excusing anything Tamara did. did. I'm just saying I also want to say I understand the dynamics, because I have dealt with this in my own family, of, having a family member shut down on you and not speak to you, and whatever the issues are, whatever, not even being able to [01:03:00] have a conversation, not even be able to sit or go to an event or see them or just at least have a cordial relationship is very difficult.

And for the person who's like willing to sit at a table and talk to them, whether or not you were right or they were right or they were wrong or there's great areas or it's a very complicated family structure. It is very hard to be the one at the end of the phone call knowing I'm gonna send this text and not get a reply.

I'm gonna call this person. They're not gonna pick up. It's very difficult, and I can understand why Tamara is dysregulated, because when you love someone, you know there's a lot of issues and that person blocks you and it's someone like your, your mother, your daughter.

You also get all of the judgment of everyone like why don't you have a good relationship with your daughter?

Why don't you have a good relationship with your mother and it somehow affects you? And in some ways when it's like in my situation, like I don't have a relationship with my mother I can be like there's boundaries, but I actually don't feel that way Like I would speak with her so I understand like where Tamra [01:04:00] is coming from in being like, I All I want to do is make things right with Sidney and all she's doing is blocking me.

So I want to hold space for that as well because I think she's getting a lot of heat right now and I also know like sitting in that position is really difficult and even if she caused it herself, how do you repair it when you're not given an opportunity either?

Sam: But again, and if Sydney doesn't want to give her an opportunity because of these other implications to me, I really and I think like your situation with your mom and I know we don't want to get too personal on here is the reverse because you're the child and your parent is the mom. And so I do think there is an onus on parents to show up in an unconditional way.

That is a little different than the onus on children and unconditional doesn't mean unboundary or that, but it does mean that they should always be trying to show up and work on that relationship, even if it's in a boundary and limited way, but we, but because it's Sydney, who's the child, she doesn't have an onus to do the same for Tamra, [01:05:00] at least in my opinion, as a kid, I think you, You do get a different power to hold your boundaries a little differently and to hold what you're willing to repair and give.

And do I think it would be probably a healthier version for her to figure out a way to repair and hold boundaries and be in a little bit of a more nuanced place with Tamara? Probably. And I also understand that it must be very hard because of how public Tamra is and how she has violated Sydney in the past and that there may need more time for Sydney to work through those violations and those wounds before she's ready to do that.

And it may be that it has to be when Tamra is done with the show and, There will be a time that like, she's probably done with the show and they're able to repair and figure something out that feels good for the both of them, or at least that's my hope.

Jenny: Yeah, I'm not a Tamra apologizer, but I will

Sam: YOU TAMARA APOLOGIZE! It's only because you guys share a birthday.

Jenny: oh yeah, we haven't even gotten to, we're birthday twins and our birthday was [01:06:00] last last week but,

Sam: No, I love when we have differing opinions, like I 

and I think That is good, because I don't think your opinion is wrong, just because I don't always agree with it. It's not because I think it's wrong, it's just because I'm seeing it. And I actually think it's right, I'm just like, I'm adding more nuance to it, and then you're adding more nuance to it, and those nuance can sometimes feel in conflict, but they're actually coming from the same place of wanting to just gain bigger perspectives of these people.

Jenny: Yeah, and again, I don't think Sydney or Tamara, if she does watch this, I'm a little scared because she recently came after Kiki from Talk of Shame for talking about her, but yeah,

Sam: Or if you want to do family therapy, I'll give you my card.

Jenny: I will say Tamara did pay for Sydney's college, has been financially supporting her, so I don't know, I guess I want to give her a little bit of credit, but I would say, On her end, the advice I would give her, because I already gave my advice for Sidney, and this is advice from a reality TV producer, not a therapist, just to be clear.

Sam: Notice that the therapist is not giving advice while the producer is.

Jenny: That's why we need [01:07:00] both, because I can give advice. The advice I would give to Tamra is that, You just need to accept Sydney's not in that place right now and it doesn't have a reflection on you.

You've made your mistakes. You're doing what you can to fix it, but at this point she does not want you to fix it. She does not want to have a relationship with you. That will change over the course of Sydney's life and the journey that she's on and what she chooses to do and you forcing yourself or you.

You do need to maybe financially support her unconditionally. You do need to text her on her birthday, and if you don't get a reply, you don't get a reply. But you have to accept that this is the situation, and when someone comes at you, like a Vicky or someone in the show, you just have to say, this is where we're at, and I'm working on it.

And it's very difficult for me, but I am, I'm working on it. And it is, not a place to speak about it, and I honestly think that's what Cindy wants from her, too. The end. Don't go hysterical on

Sam: Take [01:08:00] accountability. Don't be the victim, right? Because when she goes hysterical, she takes on a victim role and doesn't hold the accountability. And yes, I think there's some acceptance to be like, it hurts a lot that my daughter doesn't talk to me but I'm gonna continue to show up for her and continue to do what I can, barring leaving the show because the show's important to me.

And like that for me, that would be so powerful for her to say that. Rather than the hysterics and the right like the whole show she puts on, which I don't know if it's intentional or unintentional because it may be coming from again like an unconscious place of dysregulation because of fear of, and it's interesting because I can't remember what season like a clairvoyant comes on and says that Tamra has like some core abandonment wounds, which are clearly from like her family, if her mom had mental illness issues, if her dad was an alcoholic it seems pretty clear where that would come in her attachment model.

But like now she's like experienced, maybe the worst abandonment you can [01:09:00] feel as a person, which is like the abandonment of a child just as a mom, , and my kid is three. I'm not so worried about these things yet, but I think about if he got older and didn't want to have a relationship with me that would hurt me more than not having a relationship with anyone else in my life.

Jenny: Yeah, and it's interesting. Her mom is like living with her and is super, almost codependent on her in later seasons. But yeah, it does seem like I, I know Vicki throughout, you don't talk about your marriage. You don't talk about these things. It does seem like since she's been with Eddie, Eddie does love and support her for who she is.

And so we don't get a lot of their relationship issues, , 

Sam: There was the one with her renting the apartment for Ryan and, Eddie had this whole boundary that you don't give money to family, you don't do that it's his boundary. He doesn't have, he doesn't have children, right?

Jenny: No, he

Sam: So I don't know if he totally understands where that's coming from as a parent, but she did it behind his back while they were married and he was really upset about that, validly to make a big financial decision without at least consulting your partner, even if you make the [01:10:00] decision to do it, if After they said no is better than not telling them at all.

It feels really strange. And says something that is happens in their relationship and a way that Ryan continues to insert his need and importance and codependence with her over her other relationships, which is, again, interesting in the framework of boundaries and how family systems work. , 

Jenny: Ryan steps over every boundary that anyone's ever given him presently on the show. I'm sure that's hard for the other three kids to watch him get away with that. Yeah.

 I feel that Eddie just seems to have a more laid back personality and not tries to control Tamra. And I think that works for their relationship. 

Sam: By the time Eddie comes in, Tamra is seasoned at reality TV and does know how to show what she wants to show and not show what she doesn't want to show to a certain extent

Jenny: We didn't touch so much on the relationships with Tamra and the women, only because I think, I feel like [01:11:00] we've established she's a pot stirrer, she's the truth teller.

We've gone into this in the dynamics with Shannon and Heather and those pods if you listen to it. But I think breaking down her backstory and family history really tells

Sam: It's way more interesting, and I think, again, I think that role she plays, Pottster, or I'm calling it like Puppet Master, because that feels like more of, I guess they're like similar roles, feels like it is a product of all of this history and this way that she wants to control things to protect her own wounds and to protect her own vulnerabilities, which are very much all of this Stuff that we're talking about with Sydney, with her family, with her childhood, with Ryan, with Simon, and all of those things.

Jenny: Yeah, so the question is is she good for reality TV? Personally, I feel that , out of all the housewives, I will say she's the best at playing producer because it feels genuine to her personality. 

 . I think her calling out Jen with the Ryan [01:12:00] stuff, where she goes overboard with it.

Sometimes she needs to dial it back and just plant the seed and walk away. You don't need to drive it home

Sam: Sometimes she's hitting us over the head with a frying pan, and I'm like, okay, stop, Tamara, because it's not it's not working the way you want it to work now.

Jenny: But at the

Sam: And with her calling out Shannon, being like, you're an alcoholic, it's okay you're not wrong in a lot of the things you're saying, and because you're saying it in this way, you've lost the plot.

Jenny: and I think she's gotten a bit worse coming back. I feel like losing the show was hard on her, and I think she needs to realize that she was brought back because she's really good at being a reality star and just be confident in that

Sam: She's moving from a place of like fight or flight as opposed to that genuine coping strategy that allows her to like puppet master and stir in more authentic ways.

Jenny: Yeah, whereas Heather, I think, doesn't, you can tell she doesn't need the show as much even though she enjoys being back. And I think Tamara needs to just accept that your role is [01:13:00] safe. You're good on the show. I think as far as Vicky's accusation that she doesn't bring enough of her personal life onto the show, 

I think it is difficult for Tamra because I think her and Eddie do seem to have a solid relationship. 

I think she's safe on the show. I think she brings a lot I know the fans are really mad at her, but she'll turn it around

Sam: There could be a threat there for her not sustaining herself on the show because she doesn't have enough personality to bring in. But if she keeps moving from that fight or flight place of fear of losing her position on the show, I think she's gonna lose a lot of audience favor.

And isn't that really how you lose your spot on the show is when the audience stops liking you and stops wanting to see you like a Rena.

Jenny: , so is reality TV good for her? It's interesting this season that they talk about how they bought this house in Big Bear and Eddie really loves living there and would just live there for a while. I think Eddie has a good balance with the show where he comes in when he needs to, [01:14:00] he has her back when she, he needs to, but also is this is really your thing. And I think you see that with the house in Big Bear, too. It's okay, he just wants to separate sometimes from the chaos of O. C. shooting the show. But I think for the most part, reality TV is good for Tamara because she's really good at it. And she loves

Sam: think it's given her a sense of identity. It's giving her independence. And I think all of those things are really good for her.

Jenny: we're

Sam: I think where it becomes a problem for her is navigating her boundaries with herself, with her children, with that identity she's wanting to form. But I do think that being on the show gives her.

more room to work on those things. And I think the fact that she is having a bad season may be good for her. Because I feel like in general, overall people have liked her and she's she has been favorable. And so for people to maybe be a little more like calling her out and wanting some [01:15:00] accountability from her is feels a little like an opportunity.

And I'll be curious what she does with it. Based on some of the facial stories, I'm not, we're not seeing what we want to be seeing, but like sometimes you have to hit bottom in order to work your way back up. So maybe blue face is the bottom and she's going to come out of this freshly with a fresh baby skin and a fresh baby mind.

I don't know.

Jenny: butterfly is coming out of the Kakuna, the skin is reforming on her entire body. 

Sam: It's a huge opportunity.

Jenny: I actually think she's really good at producing reality tv I think she's made this to tease in a pod She's made teddy relevant.

So I think she is really good

Sam: we hate her for that? That's when I started to hate Tamra, because I was like, why do we have to make Teddy relevant? Was that necessary? Does anyone want that?

Jenny: to be honest, I kind of love how much everyone hates teddy she's [01:16:00] given like a common enemy for everyone on bravo

Sam: There's no black and white to it.

Jenny: Yeah, so finally the only thing all Bravo fans agree on is that we all hate Teddy.

Sam: And Teddy wants to be in on that joke, but it only makes her more unlikable.

Jenny: Exactly. She's I'm just going to lean into this. And we're like, yes, let us hate you

Sam: It's not getting what she wants to get from that, which is oh, people are going to find me humorous and candid and hum and have some humility, but it's no, we still just don't see any of that.

Jenny: But how genius is it for Tamara to pick the most hated person on Bravo to be her co host so that it makes her look better? 

So I think that she would do a great job like running her own production company, running her own entertainment media company, I think she's a boss, I think she could start her own shows, I think she could discover women in OC and make. Some sizzle reels of reality shows and make them happen.

 I actually see her behind the camera. I [01:17:00] see her, pulling together some crazy women or some crazy things. And being behind the camera and producing. And not being like Lisa Vanderpump like on camera, more of the puppet master behind the scenes 

Sam: I'm into it. I'm we all support Tamra maybe moving behind the scenes and maybe that could move some needle for her and Sydney because doesn't Sydney do like production stuff? Maybe it could be something I'm in common.

Jenny: Yeah, and like I mentioned, I think Talk of Shame was on Sheena's podcast and said that Tamara was really upset that she might have been talking about her on radio. And Andy and she wasn't even doing that. So I'm scared to see if Tamara hits our DMS, but no, nobody's hit our DMS yet too hot.

Sam: though. We're open to it. Hit us hot. We're here for it. 

Jenny: Yeah, we thrive like our reality stars on attention basically. But we want to thank April for this recommendation. She also put in a request for Heather from Salt Lake City. [01:18:00] So we're working on that as Salt Lake City is going to be coming. Back soon and apparently it's a really great season according to Andy which we know is an unreliable source But yeah, so put in your requests.

We'll always do it. We rounded out our orange county So we're gonna move on to some other people 

Sam: a good season of Bravo coming out in the next couple of months. Beverly Hills, Salt Lake City, Potomac, so lots more fruit for our labor.

Jenny: yeah, and dubai is wrapping up. I really want to do a dubai like just season wide Episode because I do love dubai and if you're not watching it You know, just

Sam: Shame on you. It's

Jenny: put it in the background while you're doing dishes, even if it's not as exciting. In ten years, you'll be like, I've been watching Caroline Stanbury for ten years.

Sam: And she still looks the same.

Jenny: Thanks for listening and hit the subscribe button.