Danielle Olivera from SH & WH with Ash Talks Tea

Get ready for a special episode with our guest Ashley from the Instagram page @ashtalkstea! Ashley’s known for breaking down reality TV with a sharp, black feminist lens, and today, we're taking a deep dive into Danielle Olivera from Summer House and Winter House. We're unpacking her complicated relationships with her Black female roommates, from inserting herself into Ciara and Lindsay’s drama over Austen Kroll to clashing with Jordyn over a Below Deck deckhand and even competing for the attention of a "Balloon Guy" with Gabby. Why does Danielle always seem to find herself in these competitive dynamics? We’re exploring the nuances of how the male gaze plays into her behavior and why these patterns keep showing up. You won’t want to miss this deep-dive into reality TV’s undercurrents!

Follow: @ashtalkstea 

Chapters

• 4:05 Background on Danielle
• 13:45 Talk about race on Summer House
• 21:55 Ciara and Lindsay's Fight
• 32:01 Ciara throwing the glass
• 36:53 Danielle and Jordyn
• 42:47 Boundaries
• 54:47 Danielle and Lindsay's proposal
• 57:34 Danielle and Lindsay's falling out
• 1:00:58 Danielle and reality tv
• 1:08:40 Danielle's future in reality tv

Transcript

 We have a really exciting show today will be covering Danielle from Summerhouse and she was also in Winter House and This topic was brought to us from ash talks tea. You probably know her from her Instagram and she covers a lot of The Bachelor and Bachelorette, but she's been dipping her toes into bravo. Her handle is at ash talks t. She likes to cover reality tv from a black feminist perspective. And, you know, we don't put a lot of videos on our Instagram, but in case anybody was wondering. Didn't know. Me and Sam are both white women. So this perspective is very needed on our podcast. So welcome, Ashley. Welcome, Ashley. I really am excited to be here and big fans of yours work. Yeah. Do you want to share anything with people that they should know about you? So just off the top, people can get excited to go check you out if they haven't already. I really watch a lot of Love Island and The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. I'm not as big about Love is Blind Fan, but more like dating. Reality shows are my jam. But recently Bravo's just been appealing because I'm getting older and so not really seeing myself as much on these love reality shows. So I thought it would be interesting to kind of follow my age group a little bit. I'm in my 30, I'm 37. So I love that idea of like wanting to see ourselves. I think we talk about that a lot, this like wanting this way we connect with people. I also love this parallel between Danielle and shows like The Bachelor and Love Island, because it almost kind of feels in some ways that Danielle can almost feel like she's on those shows when she's well, especially in winter. How's it felt like? Are we watching? Is this Danielle's version of The Bachelor or Love Island or one of those dating shows and not just a bunch of friends? so I appreciate that parallel that we're maybe didn't discuss before, but clearly exists here. Yeah. So Ashley has been following her podcast and we've been discussing what kind of topic we should do. And she brought this to us, which was fascinating. But I didn't realize watching Danielle over so many years because she was main cast in summer house, then she was demoted, then she was brought back, then she had a breakup and she was being cast in Winter House. And now more recently, she's not going to be on the newest season of Summer House, but there's been three situations that we really want to break down with Danielle that involve a love triangle with a black woman from her cast. So the first one is the love triangle between Lindsey Sierra and Austin, which she shouldn't have even really been involved in, but like inserted herself for some weird reason because she's like Lindsay's spokesperson. Then Winter House, after her breakup with Robert, she becomes entangled in a love triangle between Alex and Jordyn, even though I'm pretty sure Jordan didn't even want to be part of it. But she, like, made her for some reason. And lastly, the most recent season, it was between Gabby and balloon guy who I refused to learn his name. I'm just going to refer to him as Balloon Man. So it's a really interesting pattern. I'm really glad you brought this to us because I hadn't even seen it until you brought it up. So I think it's going to be a really interesting podcast. So maybe I could start with cause I'm so psychodynamic oriented, I want to, like, go back and, like, get people's roots. I want to just quickly know, like, how Danielle came on the show. So she came on already kind of like love triangle. She was Carls ex, so she's coming on an ex of someone in the house who's dating someone else. Lauren. So those are two white people. So maybe it's a little bit out of the pattern that you were talking about, Jenny. It's speaks to the bigger pattern in her, which is around seeking like male validation. And so we can get into that a little later. But so she comes in as Carlos ex and it felt like a little and I'd like to hear your perspective or both of your perspectives around this of like it felt like to antagonize Lauren. Like she came in to be an antagonist to Lauren who was like just broken up with Karl after the first season. I also think there's a really interesting moment in that first season where we see Danielle trying to like integrate with everyone and she's out of party and it's a really small moment, but one of the guys she's like flirting with tells her, Oh, you look like Selena. And then she kind of like does a twist and like, kind of like fully kind of goes into some, like, Latina. Like, I want to, like, identify as this thing that maybe you're, like, fetishizing. And I thought that was a really interesting moment, especially in comparison to later on when they're having that bigger race discussion with Maya in season six. And I think his name was Alex. He was sort of a one season guy who had the best one liner about Austin calling him the Honda Civic of Men. He says that someone at the party called him Bruce Lee and made this like and that that was really offensive. And he really voiced his like, that's not cool. That's not okay. And so it's interesting to see the two different ways that, race and identity is, is that is not white within this very like white Hamptons space is being used and responded to. And I think it's interesting that Danielle, who I think is a really big pattern code switch, are like, I think she does a lot of that code switching and if you assume you both know what that is, but if not, it's when you know, people of color go into like different white spaces. And you can correct me if I'm wrong about this, Ashley or Jenny, if anyone has more information, but kind of trying to switch their identity to fit in in a certain way. And I think Danielle is a huge code switch and feels the need and the demand to do that in order to fit in and thrive in white spaces. But I'd be curious what either of you think about that is like this is her entry into the show. Well, I think Danielle and I think it's really important to talk about her friendship with Lindsey, too, because I feel like she's been like a side character for the majority of how she navigated through summer house. But with respect to the Selena comment and kind of leaning into it, I feel like she didn't have that narrative or the tools to talk about it at that time because it was earlier in her summerhouse like trajectory. And so then when you get to the conversation with Mya and Ciara and Alex, I think the country was at a better opportunity to kind of handle those conversations. And so she just had the unfortunate experience of being the first in like when you're the first person of color in an environment like that. I don't know if she felt like she had the tools or the agency to say something or, you know, she probably was trying to make sure that she was able to continue to be on the show. And so I don't know if any of that factored into kind of how she handled that. Totally. I definitely got the sense that she felt this and not just in that moment, but just maybe it's sort of always felt this way with her, like this need to fit in and be accepted. And it's it sometimes feels like it goes against her own right, like her own better best interest at times. And it's interesting that her and Lindsey had this really close relationship and that that's like the person she kind of like created her foundation around. And it feels like that's part of that, like code switching in that like fitting in and that wanting to keep a safe place on the show as well. Yeah. Because I think Sierra's first season. Didn't she have a conversation with her on the beach about how being a Hispanic in the tech industry is like very difficult in her and Sierra sort of bond about that. That's prior to this talk that it's almost like when Maya comes in and there's two black women in the house, it was like ready to have that conversation as well. Whereas I feel like Sierra and Danielle danced around it. But I do find it interesting that Sierra and Danielle never became close. And that becomes obviously a bigger issue when the whole Lindsey Love triangle thing happens. But yeah, should we get into the conversation about race that happens with Maya and. Sarah, because that was a pretty interesting scene. Yeah. I'm curious for you, Ashley. I feel like we at least on the many different housewives, we see these different ways in which, like race gets discussed and how challenging and difficult it can be. I don't know if you've watched Beverly Hills, but we have sort of like the end of it all. Who says she's colorblind? And it's extremely problematic and just different conversations that have happened in smaller ways that have just felt very unsuccessful. And I think historically this one on summer house that Maya and Sierra begin. And it's interesting because I feel like Maya gets credited for all of it and that's an interesting dynamic. I'm curious what you think about that. So I watched Summer my house after the fact, after everything happened. So I watched it like within the last year. So I think it would have been better to watch it in real time during 2020 just to see like because I think it just would have been different because the country was in a different place. But I was really proud of my notes here. I could give you document and then we'll see later on when we talk about the fight that Sierra has with Danielle. Like you can see Maya uncomfortable throughout the season and not really feeling like she's accepted and not really feeling like she kind of fits in. And so the microaggression is being called the wrong name and all those different things throughout. Kind of like you can just see it weighing heavily on her. And I'm glad because Sierra also came in. I believe her first season was the season prior with the COVID and the isolation. So she was also pretty new to the experience too, and kind of had to come in and find her footing. So I think the combination of the two of them together, like you said, ended up being something that worked really well for both of them to be able to speak. I do think Sierra doesn't get as much credit as she should for the conversation, but Maya is definitely a good vehicle to have it and I do think that cast I'll give them credit from what we saw was also really open. And I appreciated like Paige and Kyle and it looked like a lot of people were really receptive to hearing from both of them. So I do think it was one of the better conversations because like I said, I've watched The Bachelor a lot. And so around that conversation at that time, there was the first Black Bachelor navigating similar dynamics, and The Bachelor did not do a good job about that, and that's like putting it mildly. So I think Bravo handled the conversation a lot better. And I think it was also because the two of them were together and they had a good support system in each other. So it was able to be received well by their cast members. And I think again, it just spoke to like how they felt dismissed and all the microaggressions and how that can build up. But I felt like it was a very good dynamic and the cast was open. Andre I left his apology and I felt like it was one of the better conversations about race that I've seen on reality TV. Yeah. I feel like there was a few people like Andrea and Luke who it felt like wanted to defend something but very quickly were able to like catch and correct themselves and stay present and be like, Oh, wait, this isn't about me. This isn't about my need to correct something and to really just be present and honor these, you know, these women and these people's experience here. And, you know, Kyle, I feel like that was a moment that really turned Kyle around for me, that I was like, Oh, this is someone who has some deeper capacity because I just felt like he held so much space and more so than a lot of the other, like white people in the room. And that just because he's he can just come off like such a goofy party boy, that was very surprising and meaningful to see him be able to hold that space and respond in those ways. And I think that's what felt powerful is like we we had surprising responses from people who we thought could be very dismissive or very defensive in ways that we've seen other Bravo people handle this bravolebrity handle these kind of conversations. I agree. And also, like when she had the whole thing with Ciara, had the whole thing with West. Kyle was also surprised to be like really in tune with her emotions. I was like, he must have missed like Ciara because he was doing a good job at that as well. Well, we just see how much he connects with people and how important people are for him. And yeah, you know, I was thinking of that same moment when he was like crying over Wes. And I think everyone in the audience, like, commented on like what happened also because Kyle kind of did that in his past as well So it's like, yeah, I mean, I read this like Reddit post in like preparing for this. Someone had said that they felt that Lindsay and Daniel weren't as engaged in that conversation. I don't remember that, but I don't know if that rang at all true to either of you. Well, I know when I watched back, they didn't have they didn't film any reaction of theirs. And does that mean they didn't have a reaction? We don't know. There is a cut to Daniel kind of speaking a little bit to her experience in a confessional, but not in the moment, which again, kind of speaks to, I think what you were saying, Ashley, around like how much it feels like even though it was her first time, but just in general, it feels like these conversations are maybe harder for Daniel to have. And I think that's related to her kind of desire to fit into white spaces more. I'd be curious if you see that differently now. I think that's probably it. And also, you know, at the time particularly, there was more of like the Black Lives Matter movement. So I don't know. Daniel was like, I don't want to co-opt this moment or take away from their experience or that might have been, you know, why they didn't show her specifically responding. But I did like what she said in her confessional, like I think it added to the story. And I thought it was good for the producers or whoever the editors to decide to include her narrative in there as well. And Alex. So I thought it was a fairly balanced perspective. Yeah. I mean, from a producer standpoint, easily, that conversation could have been an hour, an hour and a half and got edited down to 3 minutes. So I do think, you know, I don't want to discount what someone on Reddit saw, but I do want to say in perspective, they could have easily chimed in and it just didn't make sense for Lindsay to have a comment in that moment. So I think it is a little unfair to say, oh, Lindsay didn't say anything because she easily could have and they just cut it out. I also think in general with Bravo, they have had a bit of a difficult time with their shows in that, you know, there are certain shows like Housewives in Atlanta, that's Atlanta is primarily about black women living in Atlanta. That's what it's always been about. Although Kim was on the show first season and some other shows are just primarily white and I think they've especially around 2020 and the George Floyd protests, they were really forced to confront a lot of these issues within their own shows. They handled it well in some ways, not well in other ways, and that could be a whole nother podcast. But I think then really trying to intentionally cast more people of color onto these like more predominantly white shows has been a bit of a challenge for them. And I actually think Summer House did it the best because the Hamptons is very much predominantly a white space. But I also think, you know, when you see Surf Lodge in Montauk or these other places now, it's like a lot of young influencers coming in and that is more diverse. And so I think you are having a younger, diverse generation coming into the Hamptons, but I'm sure they are facing a lot of things that Sierra and Meyer facing. So I think they did a good job of bringing people in that made sense, that fit in with the show, that fit in with the friend group. And I think that's difficult when I mean, even in everyday life, you know, sometimes we fall into these segregated groups. And I know like for a lot of black women coming in and spending time with a lot of white women, they feel those microaggressions. And for white women, like, we don't know that we're making those mistakes. And unfortunately, it can fall on the black women to correct white women, and it falls on white women to be able to receive that criticism and change. And, you know, I think you see this on Beverly Hills, too, that that can be a challenge for both people. And unfortunately, it's our duty as white women to receive that and hold that and not dismiss it. And that can be challenging on our end, too. And any women who hang out with black women ask them if you've ever done anything to offend them. And they probably be. I don't know. You tell me, actually, would you would you like someone to be like, what did I do to piss you off? I think proximity and trust probably are like in any friendship. What I think gives you the space and the vulnerability to say something, but you have to be open and willing to have the conversation. And I think it takes a really long time for me especially to have a close relationship with some like anyone. I think it just takes time, but especially when you're navigating interracial friendships, when people have different perspectives and point of views and just like. How you are raised, are brought up and like different social cues that sometimes you just don't see or know about each other. But I think the more time you spend together, the better. I think a lot of the shows are segregated, a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff in America, like churches, even like places of worship, things like that are still really heavily segregated, more than like we talk about. So I do think Summer House especially was something I was interested in watching because there were more attempts to have it integrated cast. And, you know, sometimes it went well, sometimes it didn't. But I do think, like you said, Summer House did a better job. Lindsay kind of does have interesting which I know you guys have already covered Lindsey before, but she does have interesting relationships. I feel like she's often in interracial friendships, like with her and Danielle and her and Gabby in particular. I think she kind of has dynamics where I think she's the alpha. Like she's definitely the head person in the friendship. But I think for some reason she does a better job than I think people give her credit for. But also sometimes that can get that person in. Into something that they shouldn't be. And I think Danielle and Lindsay, that particularly got Danielle in a lot of situations because she was the secondary character and Lindsey like, but also trying to be a protector for her and just inserting herself into things that, you know, she shouldn't have And that kind of got her into some of the conversations and and situations that were hard to watch. I want to root for Danielle, understand the hardships that she's had, like in the tech industry like you said, as a woman of color and then like starting her own app. Like those are things that are difficult and admirable for her. But then she also does things with fear in Jordan and Gaby that make me, like, take a step back from her. Mm hmm. Should we get into that? Sort of like what? What? You see, I'm really curious what you see happening between her and, like, you know, Danielle and Ciara, Danielle and Jordan. And now recently, Danielle and Gabby, like what that dynamic is. I started watching Winter House First, which I feel like I did it wrong. Whoa. So back when it's three seasons, I can get through that. And then from there I started watching Summer House. So with Danielle and Ciara, I didn't know as I was watching it, like I was on Reddit and things like that. So I didn't know they actually like thought like it was that it got physical until I watched the episode and I was just really taken aback. I had never been brought up in anything that I had seen or read before with the era. I felt like the entire day she had been like dismissed. And like, you know, I think there was at least one point where she tried to speak to Lindsay. I don't know if there was intervention, but them not allowing them to speak at that time. But the first time that she tried to speak up wasn't at the dinner table. I think I feel like she tried to have an interaction with her before. And then she had talked to Page Page to kind of hyper up a little bit. And when she started talking, I feel like she just was like trying to voice her frustrations and it and like, you know, we've talked about the microaggressions and all those things. So I think she was just trying to voice her frustration when she stood up. And for some reason Danielle stood up, which, again, Daniel had been. Well, we saw cutaways to Danielle like making sad comments or like looking like, you know, making faces. And so Cierra, seeing all that, she stands up and get into it. It happened so fast. I don't really think Cierra knew that she had a moment where her emotional mind takes over and behaving in ways that are it within. Like there's that disconnect, is there? I don't think she really knew what had happened. And then I think Danielle also was shocked and she threw something back at her to, I believe, and I was just really taken aback that it happened. I know Cierra probably was. She's really poised, I think, for a lot of the time. And you can kind of see from that moment she kind of shuts down and like in reunions and things like that, things there just isn't as emotionally expressive as she was prior to that. But I don't understand why Danielle got involved and Lindsay was being really like stoic. We've seen Lindsay. She's a like master at these types of argument. So, like, Lindsay was very intentional but not really responding and like, shutting down. And I felt like that probably. Right. Zero. When she doesn't respond, that that activates someone else. And then she kind of doesn't have to take any ownership or accountability for her role in problems. And she does it to Danielle later. Right. Not a final argument. Mm hmm. And she kind of Karl to Carmen got the flag on that. And just the point, she said that Lindsey was like a like she said when this entire personality is being activated. And so but fear in that moment gets activated. And it's like taken as like this moral like thing that she did that was reprehensible. Everybody want to speak out against her. Danielle said she had so much hatred for her and I was just like that was a hard comment to watch that impact. And I do understand Danielle's perspective of like how it affected her and watching it back and realizing what happened probably had an effect on her. But I also think Sierra was kind of villainized more especially. I don't watch a lot of Bravo, so you probably have more knowledge than me, but I don't think this is the first time that that type of like glass was stirring. Is that the first time that's happened or is that the most violent thing we've seen on Bravo? Well, yeah. Let me let me recap what kind of has not even on Summer House didn't care to also throw out I guess it wasn't a glass but she threw a cup or through something and I don't remember. But what ended up being a big thing. And it was. Yeah, but not as. But if she was forgiven much quicker than Sierra was, which is. Yeah. So just to recap kind of what happened, just in case someone's like forgetting, but basically like see Sierra and Lindsey in first season of Winter House had a bit of a love triangle with Austin Kroll, also known as Muppet Mouth from Southern Charm. We call him Muppet Mouth because that's who he is. And they had a love triangle in Vermont in Winter House and Austin kind of chose Sierra over Lindsey, even though him and Lindsey had this, like, prior friendship. Then coming into summer house, he comes for Lindsey's birthday and specifically is trying to make it all about Lindsey. They end up making out at her party in front of Sierra, even though her and Sierra and Austin still sort of have the situation Chip going on. He's sort of playing both sides. Austin's clearly the villain, all of this. But I feel like, you know, obviously Lindsey just openly says she doesn't give a fuck about. Sarah has feelings at all. And then Danielle. She doesn't really test that ever. She sort of cosines out it because it's Lindsay's birthday. And there are moments where it feels like Danielle is trying. And this is something interesting about Danielle in general that I feel like in general she does try to be the voice of reason and there are moments where she is really good at it. Mm hmm. And then she loses, right? And then she like something about the loyalty and specifically the loyalty to Lindsay, which I think is interesting. Lindsay being one of the main characters on the show, Lindsay being a woman like these things feel like a big part of why her loyalty to Lindsay is different than, you know, because I think she does try to be a voice of reason to other people in the house. And there are moments where I'm like, Oh, that hit. And I think that's why at the beginning, we all like Danielle. Like she she kind of comes in and she can be a little reasonable. She can be, like, relatable. She seems like to me she seems like that of like her emotional world at times. I'm like, okay, I get her. And then we have these moments that kind of come out later with like, Cierra, now Jordan, and then it's like, Oh, what's going on with you? Like what's happening that they're bringing, like, a more diverse people in and you're having this reaction. Yeah. And so I do think there are moments where she is like kind of trying to reason with Lindsay. Like, see, you can't like once she says something like, you weren't trying to get on, you kind of like or what does she say? She's like, But you love that. Or she's like, Well, me and Austin got together and too bad for Cierra and she's like, Well, you you like that, right? You kind of like that that upset Sierra. And Lindsay doesn't totally cop to it, but it feels like Danielle is trying to get Lindsay to see like you kind of are being a jerk here. Yeah. And so it explodes in this dinner with Ciara. And I think you mentioned this, Ashley, that she was being dismissed. And I actually thought in the reunion they did a much better job of showing that because you see that main conversation in her birthday party where she's sort of like I'm not up for this. And in some ways you can rationalize, okay, it's Lindsay's birthday. She just wants to have fun. I Lindsay seems to think that she gets to be a terrorist on her own birthday and just f wow, you don't get to abuse everyone just because it's just in my experience, right? Like, in my experience, I'm the only one who met her. Yeah, but like, actually, when the show in the reunion, Cierra approached her several times to be like, We got to squash this even prior to Austin showing up. So that was her experience here as experience was 100% correct. And then also we learned in the reunion that she had learned that Lindsay and Austin had slept in a bed naked together. Prior to that conversation at the dinner. But basically they have this Italian dinner with Andrea. He's just crying in the corner about some girl. Ciara has her great moment, which Paige sort of coached her to be like, Just say your truth, which I actually thought was a good friend moment. And then it gets later. Well, she does. Well, she does say like, go like cut this bitch down or something. She does say something like that could be like seen as inciting aggression. But I want I don't think that was her intention. And I really loved how Ciara was like, No, I'm responsible for my behavior. No one can like no one can coach me into being any way then like this is my right and I really respect that when people get to reflect and have that accountability. So Ciara starts, you know, she she eloquently lays out all of Lindsay's problems really throughout the whole show. She really like that monologue up until she stands up was not correct. Correct? It was correct. And it got kind of, you know, ignored because of what happened afterwards. But basically, she gets up because she's just I think it's exactly what was said in that race conversation is like the dismissal of both of these women towards Ciara are just really it broke her I feel like because she is one of those like she came into the show as a black woman and I think that weight held on her shoulders. So I don't think she ever wanted to show that that side of her and then she confronts and then Danielle stands up towards her to be to be fair. And that's when she throws a wineglass at her and they get in this tussle. And then they're quickly like separate. And all of that happens very quickly. But I think you brought up, is this the most like violent thing that's happened on Bravo? I mean, we've seen on Atlanta Housewives, Porsha and Kenya got into it over bullhorn and a crown like dragged. Well, then there's the Monique and Candice from Potomac. Oh, yeah. So I think that was probably one of the worst because she ended up being cut from the show for it. Well, but in fairness, and we've seen a lot of, you know, white people, I guess, get into it, too. I think you brought up Hannah. But I think what made this maybe a little different is it was a black woman and a Hispanic woman and primarily white people. And I think that's where that dynamic got a little bit different. But I just want to give you guys. A quote from the reunion that really I feel like I'd love to hear your thoughts on because we obviously see it all happen. And then Ciara apologizes to Danielle and it kind of is couched for the rest of the season. And then the reunion it's brought up and I think you brought up that Danielle said, I have hate in my heart for you, yada, yada, yada. So she says that the reunion to Sierra, we should never get to that point, ever. Not as women, not as people of color. Anything over a stupid idiot guy. And for me, I felt and this is how I always felt about the Sierra situation, that she was held to a different standard because she is a woman of color and she threw a wine glass in a white space. That's how I felt because I have not seen other people on Bravo do that and get dragged as hard as Sierra. That's how I feel. But. I agree. And Danielle, it's interesting. Like as women, as people of color, that comment is interesting because it so many other times like she separates herself from the black women. And I do think it's a different experience. So I don't want to discount Danielle her how she navigated the show, too. But I don't think at that point that was more of like an admonishing of Ciara and not like we should come together or be together. You could tell that you see her as very conscious of how she carries herself and anyone, any black person on a reality show, especially in a white, wider space, is going to have to be conscious of that. So I do think fear was very disappointed. That's why she took full responsibility. She didn't want to be seen in that light. I think it was just unfortunate that it happened, but I understand why it happened. Not condoning it, but I can get to I can see how she got to that space considering everything that had transpired over the season. It does feel like both Sierra herself and the world probably hold her to a different expectation. And, you know, her being in that white space, too, I think emphasizes that, like, you have to behave better being around white people. It feels like that's something that she holds and she is so careful. And I think sometimes that makes it. I know we're not doing the whole Sierra thing, but I think Sierra is really interesting because I think sometimes that's what makes it hard for people to connect with her because it does feel like she feels this conscientiousness. And it can feel very disconnecting. And then when she like opens up these pieces of her, like I remember with this whole like West thing and her talking about why she's holding such strong boundaries, I think boundaries are really interesting thing to talk about and Danielle's dynamic with women of color, because I feel like she encounters a lot of women with color like Sierra Jordyn and Gabby are women who have extremely good boundaries. Well, I think you hit on something really important that kind of unlocked the relationships between Danielle and those three women, particularly is the boundary thing, because Daniel really doesn't have boundaries. I don't think Danielle really cares about embarrassing herself. I don't think well, I don't want to say that. But someone who cares, I think she doesn't know how to not write like I don't think it was what other choice she had. Some of the things that Danielle has done I would find embarrassing, but I think she kind of has a level of like she's going to go for what she wants and she never I think again, she just navigates this space a lot differently then fear, then Jordan and then Gabby. And she doesn't understand when they navigate it differently, particularly with Gabby and balloon guy. I feel like Lindsey brought him in, said he was hot, she couldn't date him. So if I'm not mistaken, Gabby was supposed to be the person that he that she set her up, that she set him up with. But then being anyone in a weird like competition type thing, she swooped in and I remember Gabby saying, like, she doesn't care on camera, she doesn't crap, period. So for her to have that breakdown in the bathroom and. Amanda and Paige aren't even here, like in her direct friend group, and they're the one consoling her. I think for me. And then the goes along with Jordan because Jordan, I think Alex like Jordan first and he pursued Jordan first. She rejected him. Then Danielle swooped in and began a relationship with Alex, who he was very clear from the beginning that I don't think he wanted it to be anything serious. And so when he still pays attention to Jordan, then she has a problem. Jordan's here. Some of the most beautiful humans, regardless of race. And so I think some people don't believe that black women are as desirable of women who are white or women who have lighter skin and or all sorts of things. So maybe some digging out has some internalized anti-blackness to unpack where she thinks that, you know, she should be seen as more attractive or more desirable. So something that's not happening with Jordan in particular, maybe that is the root of the tension because she says like, you're not doing this because you're not getting guys attention. When Cierra and Jordan actually do have a lot of similarities and they're navigating these spaces. It's more like a self-preservation thing, so they're probably not being their authentic selves. So it might come off on camera as like not being interesting or, you know, like wet blanket. But I do think it's like it's not a safe space to, like, be yourself. So because Jordan's different on summer half Martha's Vineyard than she is on Winter House, well, the second season, she was just going through, I think, personal stuff, but she was much more fun and open in like because she was in an environment where I think she felt more comfortable. Mm hmm. with the Alex situation, even when Danielle hooks up with Alex for the first time in the hot tub, right prior to them making out, she's giving him tips and things of talking to Jordan. And obviously, that's exactly what happens with Gabby and balloon guy, too. And you're right in the sense of like she kind of coaches Jordan at some point later on in the season where she's like, you're kind of quiet, you're really falling back and you need to, like, present a certain way. And she does the same thing to Gabby. She's like, If you want this guy, you're going to need to be bigger and more sexy and like and there is almost like she is sort of almost telling these women of color, these black women being like, if you want to get a guy, you're going to have to be even more. And I wonder if that is based on, you know, because she sees them as, you know, less attractive in some way. So they have to overcompensate. Well, not even that she sees them, because, again, I think these are like exceptionally conventionally beautiful women. I think just like society in general. Right. I think are internalized just like and I think the intricate standards of beauty. And that's something that everybody kind of falls under. Mm hmm. I think that also plays into, like, the Lindsay Ciara thing where it almost feels like it's easier for her to take Lindsay side, because I think there's this internalized probably part of her that sees like, Oh, well, Austin should have always chosen you as like the blond white woman. That's who he should be with. And, like, almost like, hard for her to look past like how that makes sense. And I don't think that's like a prefrontal thinking part of her mind. I think that's in the emotional part where we start to see those faces that she's making out. Cierra Or like, you're not going to do that or this way that she has to be so loyal, even though we know there's this part of her that knows that Lindsay is wrong in this, but like can't fully take that in because there's these other narratives at play. Right. And also, she's been the victim of the same thing, you know, like with her dynamic with Karl and Lindsay. And like so she's been both like the victim of being treated different in a white space and then like perpetuating it with other women. So it's an interesting place for her to navigate, I think it's really interesting with the Alex situation that Danielle essentially like in the Sierra Lindsay Austin situation, she's sort of like it's Lindsay's birthday. She had the relationship with Austin first. They do this thing where they just make out and that's somehow like, fine. So she's excusing a lot of Lindsay's behavior that she's making out with Austin in front of Sierra. But then when it comes to the Winter House situation, like Jordan is simply existing in the same space as Alex in. Sometimes there's flirting, sometimes there's not, but it's definitely way more and Alex's side than it ever was on Jordan's. And I don't know what Danielle expected of Jordan, but I feel like she almost expected her to be like, No, get away from me. You're with Danielle now. We are no longer can associate like it just felt so extreme her expectations. But I found it ironic that she's expecting of Jordan. Exactly. Like what she, you know, excused in Lindsay's behavior from the other interaction. Right. Well, I think it's interesting, your thing between Danielle and Jordan, because when we go to that conversation that she has with Jordan about like you're not being fun, you're not having a good time one of the things she says is like, I feel really good about where I'm at right now in this moment. At the same time, we're seeing a split screen of Alex talk to I don't know who's mom? Somebody. It looks like somebody's mom. I guess. I don't watch the whole rewatch the whole episode, but and he's just saying, like, I don't want to be with this person. This is like too much. This is crazy. And then back to Danielle talking to Jordan. I feel really good. And I want you to feel the same way. And I think you're low energy because you don't have any men to flirt with or to have crushes on. And to me, what that really felt like from like a psychodynamic place is where there was all this like denial and scapegoating and all this like projection onto Jordan of like I, I clearly regret my choices with Alex, but I can't, like, go there. I can't hold my boundaries. I can't do this. I can't. I need that validation. I, I can't not have that validation. And so instead of, like, looking the horse in the face, I'm going to come to you and try to bring you down to make myself feel better. And you are an easy target for that because I think there is like internalized probably racism happening there that like, I'm not going to do that to Malia, I'm not going to do that to any of the other like white women in the space that wouldn't make sense. And there's this like competitive nature, I think she feels, especially with black women. And I think I wonder about how like that race identity goes into it, because as a Hispanic woman, there must be a little. Bit more privilege in having lighter skin and how that allows you to move in certain spaces in a way that, like the darker your skin is, the more that that difference feels or gets seen or gets expressed. I think just I think that's the root of it. I think how she navigates it is in a different area than than the black women on the show can. And she might have, I don't know Gabby's history like her dynamic or where she grew up. I know that's a point of contention with her and Sierra because they had different right she had some financial privilege that she. Right where her body has probably been used to. With Jordan, specifically, Danielle might have been used to navigating more white spaces than her. And I think, again, she probably she can navigate this way. But if other people choose to do it differently, I don't think she has a lot of understanding around it because it seemed like she was like this like similar as like with Gabby, especially like she wanted this was like good for her. Like the competition was good for Gabby or she was trying to teach her or in certain certain ways. But I do think it goes back to the boundaries that she just doesn't have the same ones as Gabby, as Jordan as the era. So like it looks like when they're upholding their boundaries or standing for what they believe and holding that, it just doesn't disconnect for Danielle. And to her point, if there was no one there for Jordan to converse with or be interested in, that's on casting. Like I do think, you know, a lot of these shows don't have like, well, summer house really they have black men like Olive Oliver that Maya dated that Danielle iconically introduced her to. But I mean, there's not a lot of there's not a lot of people where that Jordan could have even expressed interest in based on how the show is cast I don't know where race fits into that but I think there's this core part part of Danielle that feels I'm only valid if for like I have this male attention. And it's interesting that generally it's white male attention and I think that's probably a meaningful piece of it for her. And like looking to Jordan of like, don't you want that too? And if you have that, then you fit in and you look like you're having fun. And this narrative around like male validation and male attention and the fact that she's so willing to like, like, have sex on camera, right? Like that's I mean, women should choose what they want to do. And I empower her to, like, make choices that feel good for her. But that's like an interesting piece of like that. She's not afraid to show that because it does feel like there's a part of her that feels more valid. It being shown right like this validates what I some part of me that's feeling accepted or wanted or desired that like if other these other women like Gaby and Jordan Sierra I think is a little different. But I think especially Gaby and Jordan, like, they don't seem to need that and their boundaries are really strong around that. Like I remember Jordan just being like, I'm celibate, like I don't need a man. And I think she did that in Martha's Vineyard, too. Like, it was like kind of a big part of her, like, identity. It was like, I don't need this attention. Like, I don't need it. And even Gaby being like, I don't. And it's interesting, we hadn't noted, but I think wasn't there a history between Gaby and Danielle where Gabby's boyfriend cheated on her with Danielle before they even filmed, which is like. And I want I. Part of me wonders if he was a white man. Because, like, that feels I want to say like I want to say I feel like there is something where we saw, like, a picture that was, like, maybe slightly burned out. But, yeah, I feel like there's something for Danielle about, like, gaining that favoritism, gaining that desire, and then it kind of turns into a competition, which I don't think at her core she wants. But I think for her it becomes about like this internal part of acceptance and like, I'm accepted if I'm desired. I. What I know, too, like, Sierra came into the show as a love triangle with Hannah and Luke, and she very quickly, it was like, okay, whatever is happening. Whatever I walked into. Now I'm turned off by Luke, and I want nothing to do with him. with the Jordan conversation. I think you brought up a very valid point in casting. I think Jordan is a star. Like as soon as she came on the show on Martha's Vineyard, I was like, She's the star of the show because she just has that quality that you want to watch her. And I feel that she's really interesting and a very deep person. I don't think in the three seasons of television I've watched her. I got to fully see that, which is unfortunate because I think she has so much she could bring to reality TV. I think part of that is a casting issue potentially. I also think maybe it was an issue of like where Jordan was in her life. I almost wonder, like, I'd love to see her hosting a show or I could even see her being like a bachelor and like having a choice of, like, a thousand men, because she has a high standard and she should because except for that, she went after Corey or she went after Corey. Oh, God. Initially, she's like, he's the one I'm attracted to. And I was like, Oh, no, baby girl. But yeah, I mean, I know. And I think she talked about, too. I think somebody else from Martha's Vineyard was supposed to go into winter house and like backed out. So it ended up being she was the only one from her cast and everybody else had somebody else from their cast and that she, you know, felt very like left like left out, that she didn't have someone from her cast, which was a difficult position for her to be in. But I do feel like there's an impetus on these kind of summer house shows to be, you know, dating and sleeping with people. And like when Jordan came in and she was like, I'm celibate, it just kind of felt like, why are you on the show then? And I feel like as a as a producer, like a lot of times casting happens with a totally separate team. So when you come in and you're shooting, the show is like, Oh, that's already been decided. You have no part in that. Maybe there's some additional casting that happens during it. I think Martha's Vineyard did it better than most other shows where they just started randomly throwing in people only three weeks to film, which I kind of love that chaotic vibe. But for Jordan, I almost wonder too, the pressure from production and the cast to be like, You're on this show to date, you're on the show to be interesting, and you're kind of bringing nothing but boundaries and celibacy, and that's not that interesting. So I feel like Jordan was probably also getting it from multiple sides. I did think she was really into I agree with you actually have really liked her on Martha's Vineyard and when she was like kind of holding boundaries with like the different men in the spaces around how they treated her and like having those conversations and being willing to like that felt to be like a big deal for her to be willing to speak up for herself like that made me uncomfortable. I didn't like that you did that. And sometimes she didn't do it perfectly because she'd do it to someone else and that to get back and it would be a little tricky, but to even just be willing to have those conversations is interesting and powerful for like all women to to be able to hold. And like I do think there is like this negative look on women who aren't willing to just like go along and get along. And we see that like as an audience, our own internalized patriarchy and misogyny around like, oh, it's more fun to watch someone not have boundaries and just like, like someone who hates them on TV rather than hold a boundary of like, no, you are a jerk and like that isn't okay and I'm not going to accept that treatment. And I think this is a conversation me and Jenni are often having around. Like we enjoy seeing the mess and then like, where is there room for like healthy interpersonal relationships and healthy boundaries on these shows along with the mess and that like I don't want all of one or all of the other because that would like one. It wouldn't be interesting, but it also wouldn't be empowering and it would be giving us a message that's like archaic. I think when it's authentic with the Ariana situation on Vanderpump Rules like people relate to that sometimes I think like with Jordan, I'm like, is this how? And even in some ways with Ciara, I think that I don't see that they act off camera that different from how they act on camera. But at the same time, like with the Sierra situation, I'm like, I think if there wasn't the element of like everyone judging her too, I think she would just go full force with these fuck boys more. Maybe only because after they stopped filming Summer House, even after the Wind throw and everything else that happened, she still had sex with Austin again. But like, let's also remember, how old was Sierra then? She was like 25. She was like, her brain isn't even fully developed in a developmental spectrum. And they're holding her to the same regard of Lindsey, You know, like there's a ten year at least a ten year age difference between these two women and even between her and Danielle and this idea that, like, she's supposed to be in control of her emotions or be in control of her feelings in a way that like is far beyond her. And she is like she like Lindsey's identity is activation where Sierra is is boundaries. And like we're talking about someone who's ten years younger being able to hold better boundaries and emotional regulation. But when she has one moment where, you know, she explodes, it's like seen as like a character logical flaw. And I feel like that doesn't get talked about enough like that. There is this really big, stark age difference. But like at that time I think she was only like 25 or 26 at the time. Yeah, Lindsey actually is the one who pointed out she's like, Sierra needs to grow up because she's 25 and I'm 35. She needs to grow up. The expectation that she act like a 35 year old in that moment like that was what she's saying, though, right? Like she's like she needs to grow up. She needs to act like she's 35 because she's in this space with us and I'm making this demand of how she behaves. Not to mention, Lindsey is the one who did not act very mature. And I do think like different like people navigate dating like dating within fringe groups very differently. I think, you know, Sierra probably had a harder of a line like and I she said I gave you all the opportunity like if you were going to be together in Vermont, like she would a step back. But Austin chose her, so then she proceeded. And so I think what someone considers disrespectful is different. I definitely think Austin and Lindsey were being disrespectful to Lindsey. That might not have bothered her because, I mean, she, you know, was in a whole relationship with Carl. They were getting married. He dated Danielle before. I don't think they have the same like boundaries with dating people like dating the same man. So that could have been part of the reason why what she what she was doing with Austin wasn't a big deal to her versus like Sierra. It would have been a big deal because Sierra said she wanted to, like, remove herself from the equation. And you gave another good example of when the Luke situation happened. She was like, done. She removed herself from the equation. So I think they just might navigate that type of dynamic differently too. And that could be a cause of. Sierra's overreacting went to to me, like I think it might just be because I'm watching it as a black woman. So I feel more of an affinity and a connection to a Sierra, to America, to a Jordan like. I would likely navigate the same situations in a similar way. So I think obviously. You know, people say, yeah, I made a mistake. Should not have done a car day, you know? But I do think I can understand why Ciara responded the way she did. Jordan responded the way she did. Why Gabby responded the way she did. Like it makes sense to me. But Danielle is interesting because she holds space with them in a much different way than she did with Lindsay, which made Season seven such a hard watch because like you did all of this to write for Lindsay, like you would like die for Lindsay, basically. And then the minute you expressed like concern, just concern about her and Karl, which you are right. And the end of the day, it was just difficult to watch her kind of get sidelined in that friendship. You know, the whole proposal thing was like he told what's the other guy's name? The photographer he told everybody in the house was that there was no no, that was a knew he was there. All he was on this guy is one season guys are Alex to me. Yeah one season. Randall basically he told him like and he said he wasn't telling any of the girls in the house. So I felt for Danielle in that moment when she's like, I'm one of the girls in the house when Lindsay was like her best friend. And so that was hard to watch their friendship because like in my thirties and, you know, seeing friendships dissolve, it's really it's difficult. So I felt for Danielle and the whole situation, I felt for her with her breakup with Robert. Like, I think coming off the heels of that probably is why she was so unhinged on their house, because she was just trying to get over that situation. So I can understand that she's a complex character, that she has layers and nuance. But at the same time, I feel like the dynamics with her in Black Women are when some of her more unpleasant characteristics are at the forefront. It's so interesting that you bring up the dynamic between her, Karl and Lindsay, and it feels like in that final fight between Danielle and Lindsay, she suddenly understands Sierra's experience in like a totally different way, where it's like, Oh, I'm not valued in this space. The way I thought I was valued and the way she like it feels. I can't remember exactly when I watched it, but like it felt like in that moment she really hugged Sierra and it felt like that was such a repair moment of like, Oh, I see you and now I know your experience because now I'm being othered and I'm on the outside. And as much as that, like, wasn't at the forefront about race, it was about the relationship dynamics. There was something of like, We are the three amigos. But actually I'm on the you know, they're getting married. So that's why I'm on the outside. But also I'm just on the outside, like, I'm othered. And that feels like a huge fear for her being othered. And it felt like just powerful that that was a moment where she was able to, it seems like, understand Sierra's experience better. Unlike the rewatch of that whole season, Did you feel in that dynamic with Daniel Lindsay and Carl that there was some, like, jealousy on Daniel's part. Did you feel that? Well, Lindsay said that in. Um. I don't know. I don't think Daniel was jealous. I don't. I think it was more like the dynamic of their relationship changing. Maybe just like her not being as important to Lindsey, because at that point, Daniel was with Robert, so it wasn't like she was single and, like isolated and, like, I don't think she wanted Carl. I think she was more concerned about the dynamic of their friendship changing, which it did. I think she felt rejected. It felt like someone who felt so rejected by someone who and in that, I imagine in her mind, just flashing back to all the moments where she was loyal to Lindsey, despite her better judgment and recognizing that like, Oh, I fucked up, this was the wrong train to get on. Yeah, it was interesting. Even before the whole dinner fight with Cierra at the birthday party, when Sierra was trying to approach Lindsey, and now we see in the reunion that that wasn't the first time It was like the third time or something like that. And she's really like, let's just sit and talk. And Lindsey is like, I'm not talking to you. I'm not talking to. And then like so far, she walks into a shed to just hide and then see her is like, you've walked into a shed, like, what are you doing now? That was such a good moment. And then as Lindsey's walking back inside, Ciara is like at a breaking point, clearly, and she's like, You're a sucker ass bitch. And then Danielle, the whole party is like, This is Lindsay's birthday. Nothing's going to be negative. Nothing's going to blah, blah, blah. And then Danielle is like, she just called you a sucker ass bitch. If you don't handle it, I'm going to handle it. And that was about like, you know, the same kind of almost physical tussles at work in the cage. Yeah. I'm like, Well, why does no one talk about that? Danielle egged on that situation because they could have easily gotten into it right then, because she's like you. Either you confront Sierra and like, attack her in some way or I'm going to do it. And that got completely excuse, like, ignored. I felt like. And, and I was like, why are you involved? Like, why? That's the big question. Because even like Danielle was getting more activated than Lindsey. Lindsey was just and maybe that wasn't Lindsay's intention. I don't want to say Lindsay was, like calculated with that either, but I don't. Yeah. There were several times where Danielle kind of sat that one out and again, standing up that was on you. Like no one told you to stand up. She did say yes to you and Lindsay specifically, but I think being started herself, fear would have just been talking to Lindsay had not Danielle been making faces and comments and then like she escalated to when she stood up as well. to me, the way like Danielle always wrote for Lindsay was like, almost irrational. Like, this is my role is like protector. But it definitely to me degraded what like Danielle could have brought to the show just as herself. Mm hmm. Danielle's never really a favorite person of mine on the show. But I try to keep an open mind. Like I said, there's good ending, you know, to which she had gotten more of an opportunity to, like, have her own storyline, because even the most it was either Lindsey or Karl or Robert, like never really on her own two feet. And so getting her act in those things like coming into her own and but now, you know, she's not I don't know if she's not been asked back or she's taken a step back, but it does kind of feel I think it's better that she's not on the show. Like I do think it was the right decision. Like if she can come back as a friend of pop up at a party. Cool. But I do think her I don't know what to take away from her participation on these shows. Like, I don't know how I feel about her. I guess she's complicated. I do appreciate the fact that she is liberated and she makes her own choices. And I think there's some autonomy that she has that other people don't. But also, there's a lot of things that she did that were problematic. And I wish she would have been able to be a main character, and I don't feel like she ever really was. Yeah, that's that brings us kind of into we always end up with these like three with the two questions of like, is she good for reality TV and is reality TV good for her? I kind of would start with like, is it good for her? Because I feel kind of piggybacking off of what you're saying. There's this place in which like it feels like she never and I don't know if it's on the show or in her entire life, like she doesn't feel in power, that she's good enough just as she is, and that she needs to like either get that validation from men or from Lindsay or from whoever that we didn't actually get to know her in the deeper way is I think there were some like quieter moments in like when she maybe at the beginning of her relationship with Robert, where it seemed like they were happier and we got this like maybe a bit more grounded. Danielle But I think she was just a friend of then, which is interesting. But yeah, I don't know if it it has been good for her. I don't think it's allowed her to fully, like form her, her own identity. Yeah. I think whether she's good for kind of putting both the questions together. From a production standpoint, there's definitely something behind the scenes going on with Danielle. I feel like because she came in as main cast, she was downgraded. She, I think even kind of went away for a while and then she was promoted back to the main cast. I think actually this season with Robert, she was main cast because it was that coveted season where they were all like stuck together. But then I think she was downgraded again to front of and then now it's been released that she's not coming back, which she sort of made it seem like she decided to step away. You know, that's always the narrative. Yeah, that's always the narrative. I feel like in general, just my perspective on it is the network always gives the cast an opportunity to, you know, frame them leaving and whichever way they want. But I think part of that is also like even with her situation with Robert, I remember there was a reunion where somebody brought up that her and Robert were having these, like, explosive fights and that. I'm glad you're both nodding, because I remember that stuck out to me and being like, why would that be cut from the show? But I think it's because she was frightened of that season and it wasn't relevant to the bigger storyline. But I'm like, That's something I'd love to see, at least to set the stage of why her and Robert like, suddenly broke up. And even that whole season where Lindsey and Carl and her were feuding, it was all about that. And there was clearly stuff going on with Robert behind the scenes. I think we we learned later on off camera that Danielle found out that Robert basically left her for another girl. And that's sort of what she's alluding to in the Winter House reunion when she's like, especially how my last relationship ended. But again, like, we never get the full story. We have to like piece it together from the Internet. And it might be because she wants to do this app and be a successful entrepreneur. And reality TV is not her end all, be all. And clearly that season of Winter House, I did give her some passes because I know breaking up with someone you've been with for a long time can really send you into a spiral. But it kind of crossed the line where that was like, that excuse is not bad. And you know, I imagine after this most recent season with her and Gabby, I think a lot of people had really big reactions to the interaction between her. I think a lot of people had a big reaction to that interaction between Danielle and Paige, where she was kind of like telling Paige about her relationship. And I kind of I'm going to hold the space that she looked back and was like, Oh, this actually isn't good for me anymore. I'm act behaving in ways that don't look like what I want to see in the mirror. So, Ashley, do you think reality TV is good for her and do you think reality TV she is? Do you think that she is good for reality TV? I don't think it's good for her overall, at least when she's not in a good place. I feel I do think we've seen her trajectory and her growth and it's been compelling to watch at times. I think it's interesting to watch somebody not have it all together, be messy, make mistakes, make the same mistake, kind of insert themselves in things that they don't need to be in. Like, I think she made choices that were. Not choices that I would have made, but I do feel empathy for her, like with the seasons that I've been watching her, like the dynamic with her and Lindsay, like that was tough to see. So there are moments when I feel for Danielle. So she was interesting television. I think if we can have a whole conversation about different dynamics and still not scratch the surface like there are so many things we didn't bring up. She's compelling TV, but I don't think it's good for her and I think she's kind of. Raynor course on Summer House and they're all getting older too. So it's like, you know, how much longer most of them run their course that summer, right? Like, how long can you party in the Hamptons every weekend. And like so hopefully she like does her CEO and founder stuff and proves everyone wrong. And that that that was that was a callous comment. But you know, I don't think. Long story short, she was interesting to but I don't think it was good for her. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that comment up, like during the whole Gabby, because we kind of touched to serve as a balloon guy. Obviously, that was not as big an interaction as the other two. But yeah, when obviously Gabby's upset, she's like as a CEO and founder, I want to be a leader. And it's like, what does that have to do with you stealing a balloon guy? I heard that. I heard that is her trying to navigate like how she identifies versus how she behaves that like conflict in her value system. Like this is who I want to be. I want to be a CEO and founder. That's how I want to be seen. But I'm not behaving in that way. So I need to like almost erratically, like say it out loud so people see it versus like this behavior that everyone's seeing. Yeah. And I mean, it's got to be hard to be on reality TV and then be in the tech world and trying to get VCs to, like, give you millions of dollars or whatever like that. Those are kind of in conflict. And I think it was difficult for her because she wants to appear a certain way, whereas I feel like a Page or Hannah, they built their whole business on being the giggly squad and like embracing reality TV while also being like taken somewhat seriously in their endeavors. And I felt like for Danielle that was a harder pivot. So the third question I wrote for this particular episode was, now that she's off summer house, where would you like to see her? Don't everyone jump in at once because they're so silent. I guess it doesn't lay for our show. Or I guess I guess do we just not see her involved in pop culture on television? Oh, I want I want her to get whatever validation and happiness looks like for her. Like, I'm not Lindsay's biggest fan, but I do think that Lindsay's kind of, like, reach some goals and things that she's wanted for a really long time. And so that's always good for me to see someone, you know, get the thing that they wanted. So whatever Danielle wants, whatever's going to make her happy, I'm in support of her pursuing that. I don't care for if she were to get back on a reality TV show. Like I don't see her doing like traitors or House of Villains or anything like that. I think if there is some future down the road where they could retool summerhouse into like an age appropriate. I don't know what would be what would they do, but maybe later in the future, when she has her life together, she could return back to a new like a valley type summer house. I don't know. Yeah. I could see her on some kind of show where they're highlighting, like, women. Like career women. Like women. Navigating, like, careers and male centric spaces. Like, I think that could be interesting because I think that is part of like a big part of her identity and what makes her feel good and validated. And if she would have more space to talk and be in that world, we may see her acting in less like icky ways. Yeah. It reminds me of that classic Bravo show, which I kind of loved but is fallen by the Bravo history. Blood, sweat in heels. Ooh, I've never heard of that. Oh, really? It was like a I want to say, it was like Girlfriends of Paris, where it was like a one off situation. But it was it was about like career women in New York City. And it did feature some like very successful women of color. If I remember correctly, it was kind of like a fever dream of a show. We should do like an episode on one of these random classic shows just for no reason. But anyways, yeah, I mean, I was actually thinking when you guys were talking was like, if Lindsay goes on Real Housewives of New York, which I still kind of think would be chaotic only because I feel like Real Housewives of New York need some help because it's kind of boring to me. It's not good, but it's really not good. Although I love the new casting of Rachel. But other than that, I'm kind of like womp womp about it. And then Danielle just like, comes on, has her, like, friend, like, I don't even know if she'd be friend of level four housewives, but maybe just a friend of Lindsay's. Yeah, but I mean, I agree. I would like to see her app be successful. I did think it was a really good idea. Isn't it like about Chloe? Like you scan the clothes in your closet and then it tells you, like, how to put your outfits together. I feel like I need that. Yeah, I just do it. She's never been. This sounds mean, but I don't think she has enough, like, fashion sense to me. That's not the first thing I think of when I think of her. So sometimes she has, like, fashion fails, like her reunion. Look for this past reunion. Everybody knocked it out of the park and it felt like she was just not in the group text about the color scheme or the vibe that was going. But I mean, I do think it's a really good idea of giving like Cher from Clueless but like and your phone like the little closet. So if it's a good idea, I hope she's successful with it. But yeah, I'm sure she's not the one who makes those choices about the outfits. She probably has some. Oh, she has a stylist. I would hope so. Well, I mean, in some ways, like that could be to the benefit and being like, clearly, I'm kind of a mess. I need help. Yeah. Okay. If she repurposed it, it's not that she has bad fashion. It's just sometimes she makes, like, choices that are bold, that don't translate. Like, if they're bold and you pull it off, great. But sometimes I don't. Yeah. I mean, I'm not like the fashion girl on it, to be honest. But I do agree with you. Like, she's never been known for, like, fashion the way, like Paige. She should almost get Paige to be, like, part of her, right? If she wasn't mean to page, Paige could help her. Like, Paige would be a great spokesperson for her app. Absolutely. So before we end this, I do want to hear, as you're new to Bravo and coming into these shows, because I do think like the Bachelor universe and the Bravo universe kind of don't intersect that much because it's such a commitment on both ends. Whereas like I think you brought up briefly the Matt James episode of the of The Bachelor, which is actually one of the only seasons I watched here and there. And then I think we we watched me and Sam watch a little bit of Clare's season because it was pandemic and we the pandemic season, yeah, we have like zero lives. So we were like, let's just do this. But other than that, we haven't really been that much into it. And then the Bravo universe also takes over your entire life. So what, coming into the Bravo universe? Like, what are some thoughts or just general impressions? Now you're you're you're joining us over to this side. Well, so far I've watched I mean, I'm on season seven of Southern Charm, and that's been a show that was so outrageous that I've been like reverse gatekeeping. So any time I start watching something, I'm just telling people like, you need to watch this because I need to talk about it. But I've watched Southern Charm, Summer House, Summer House, Martha's Vineyard, and then, you know, occasional housewives. It's kind of hard for me to get into because there are so many seasons. So sometimes I just say, Well, I'll just start whatever the current season is and then go back because Bravo does do a good job of giving you context. I think the Bravo community has more because there's something always going on. So I think there's more to what you can find your footing with, whatever shows resonate with you. I like the Bravo celebrities on Traitors and House of Villains. I feel like they do really well. And I have watched Atlanta like I mean, I'm into pop culture. So, like, I know Nini. I'm not sure I know Phaedra. Even if I haven't watched every episode I think Bravo has more for. More for you to get into and a room for growth in ways that The Bachelor and The Bachelorette does not. Because like I said, with Danielle, you get to see her for eight seasons, so you do get to see the girls. So I do enjoy that aspect of it I like. I like the conversations. I do think the community is really strong, but it's not like because there's some stuff that's going on in the Bachelor franchise with different not vetting some of the leads and the contestants that go very, very far. But I'm like, Y'all don't know anything. Like, Thomas Ravenel is like the worst person. So, like, we're mad about this, but, like, y'all don't even know what bravo celebrities and like, what bravo people are dealing with. So I think Andy Cohen just has a really great like it's it's phenomenal. Like there are so many worlds and below deck and just like you can anybody can find a Bravo show that they like. And there's so much to unpack and I've learned a lot, but I enjoy a lot of the people following them on social media. And I think it's it's interesting. I love listening to podcasts. So like I was really glad that I found you are because a lot of people just do recaps though. I think taking and looking at them from a nuance perspective, like I think the two of you having the producer background and the psychologist background, like it's fascinating because you just unlock things that I know are there, but like you just helps me analyze it and like what it says about our current culture. And I'm always interested in what reality TV kind of tells us about ourselves. So Bravo has lots to like look at and analyze. Yeah. And we so appreciate you coming on today because, I've worked on, you know, shows, predominantly with white cast, and I've worked on shows with predominantly black casts. And I think you do have to, like readjust your biases. And it's important to me to do that because I like to think of everyone as human, but I also see color. I'm not a scientist and that something that I wouldn't react very strong to like. I think the Sierra situation is a perfect example like. The situation at that table wasn't just Sierra being upset with Danielle or Lindsay in that moment. That was her life, living as a black woman and being dismissed. That culminated in her throwing glass. And that's why I did think this was an important conversation, because in just saying you shouldn't throw a glass, it's not how you behave. It kind of it negates the deeper reason for why that happened. And I thought that is important to talk about. your voice is so needed here and we appreciate you showing up and we appreciate you listening and we appreciate what you do and just bringing a bigger awareness to nuance of things that happen in these reality shows. Like I said, the first time I listened to your episode, I was like, Oh my, this is so good. I said it to my friend because we're watching Southern Farm together, and I do think it's really easy to have like a black and white opinion on a lot of these characters and people that we see. It's a limited time frame. Like you said, with the conversation about race, they'd probably have a four hour, it's 3 minutes, and we're making so many judgments and diagnosing people, so many different things and having all these heated conversations about it. So I like that, you know, there's nuance. You're not painting one person as either evil, bad or good. Like there's everybody has cause we're human. And so I really enjoy listening to your podcast and hopefully getting to know more Bravo people and digging deeper into getting into shows and things like that. But again, I just think it's amazing and thank you for having this conversation. I hope we did your due diligence too, because I know she's navigating this space as a person of color and it's unique to her experiences, which I do think are part of why she's had such an interesting. And sometimes, like her conflict, it's hard to watch is because there's no one really else in the space that she can connect with. And actually seeing, like my own Sierra Connect, it's just like kind of highlighting the fact that she didn't she was really navigating it alone. So for that, you know, I give her credit on how she handled and like showed up. Showing up amazing on a show is hard, like being vulnerable and being real because we talk about how some people don't do that as much. So I applaud her for being her full self on television. Definitely. Yeah, we give we give Daniel flowers, too. We know you're hard on you, but we can give you flowers, too. We recognize it. It's hard for her. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. If we're hard on you, it's probably because we respect and liked watching what you had to show us. And part of that hardness is also related to, like, things we see in ourselves. Like, I think about my own boundaries and my own drive for validation and challenges and internalized sexism and racism and things that I'm constantly trying to work through in myself. That's such a good point. So there's like a Bravo person who like him, like he rubbed you the wrong way or just you feel something about or hit something. It's important to investigate, like why those feelings are there and what they could mean for you. Definitely. So, yeah. Well, I'd love to have you back. There's so much going on, and this winter is going to be stacked with Southern Charm coming back to. So we'd love to have you back. And thanks everyone for listening. Thanks. Thank you.