Josh Fertel
00:04
Welcome to the Angry Biller, a show where we explore the people and the businesses behind the scenes of healthcare those men and women that are the catalysts that allow providers to concentrate on delivering exceptional patient care. Welcome to the Angry Biller. We are broadcasting at the Visuals by Momo Studios. My name is Josh Fertel, I am your host and the owner of J3 Medical Billing. What a lot of people don't understand about a medical practice when you go to your doctor is that it's nothing but a small business, and like any small business nowadays, finding talent and retaining talent is a big issue. So I wanted to invite Chris Colley, who's the managing partner of Engage Talent Solutions, to come in give us his insight how offices can really take that off their plate and concentrate on what they're supposed to concentrate on, which is taking care of patients, and not have to worry so much about the behind the scenes things that are going on.
Chris Collie
01:04
Welcome, Chris. Thank you for having me. Josh, Pleasure to be here.
Josh Fertel
01:08
So I always like to start at the beginning. Tell me how you got into what you're doing, what's your passion for it.
Chris Collie
01:15
My passion started very early Great Living in Jamaica, where, in Winnebago Bay Okay, in Winnebago Bay Really got pulled into tourism and HR and then moved to New York, took a position as director of training and development for a large hotel company Okay and then subsequently ended up in Florida Okay With MyEducation MyEducation Worldwide yes as assistant vice president for leadership and education worldwide oh, wow, for Marriott. So I did that for about 14, 15 years, so you've been doing this a very long time, a long time. When I had an afro, it was.
Josh Fertel
01:56
Afro. So let's start with finding people. If you had a medical office and I know that you have helped offices in the past what are your suggestions? What are the first steps that a practice should take? But please, let's bear in mind that a doctor just doesn't have time for this, in one sense, right.
Chris Collie
02:15
Yeah.
Josh Fertel
02:16
So it's going to fall on the office manager or the controller. Where do they start?
Chris Collie
02:22
It definitely starts with understanding that that doctor's office is a brand. Right, and treat your office as a brand. So top talent are attracted to good brands. Well said so, as an office manager, if you're doing cool things within your company, then they're going to talk and tell that story. So top talent can look at it and say, wow, I love this office, what they're going to talk and tell that story. So top talent can look at it and say, wow, I love this office, what they're doing. And so I definitely started with identifying the fact that you are a brand and being able to treat it that way. And there we go.
Josh Fertel
02:55
And what would separate an office one from another as far as branding a?
Chris Collie
02:59
little, absolutely. So let us say, this office does an annual picnic every year, or they volunteer a 5K run and the office is a tech, okay, they take a job description and upload that to Indeed, right, and Josh, I've seen some, really. I mean, I've seen a lot of job descriptions. Yes, I cannot remember the time I've seen a job description or a team that's really sexy, oh, okay, like, oh my God, after reading this job description, I must work at this medical office. This God, after reading this job description, I must work at this medical office.
03:45
This is awesome, right, right. On the flip side, we want to attract a candidate who really wants to love and work in your office. That's great, but the math doesn't add up. So what I'm seeing is a very boring job description for a tech. Okay, he needs to be able to have this qualification, right, blah, blah, blah. Very boring. Everybody does that.
04:03
So if I'm a top talent, you're a small shop. You can't pay me the huge salaries or huge wonderful bonuses that I get from other companies. So how am I different? And so my recommendation always to clients would be to talk about your culture. A job description and a job posting are two different things. Go ahead, explain. So. Job description is good for people like me.
04:29
Consultants, department of Labor come knocking on your door, right, you know, attorney called you. Better have a job description, right, that's a wonderful tool after you're hired. Okay, it has no place whatsoever in posting for a position in your office. Okay, no place whatsoever in posting for a position in your office. Okay, the first half of your job posting should be about the sexiness of your company, why you're different things you do in a community. What about your culture? That's special, okay. So when I read that I'm like okay, I like your vibe. I can see, feel, experience your office by looking at your job posting and the second half of the posting talks all the boring stuff, right, right. But if you do a search today on Indeed for tech in doctor's office, 99.99% of them all the same, right, company name is different, let us in here but they're pretty much the same. So how you want to stand out if you want to compete with the big companies, Do you have?
Josh Fertel
05:22
I mean, you've led me to two questions. Yeah, I'd ask the first one, since we're still looking for talent what kind of, what kind of content do you put into that job description that makes it sexier? Good Posting the job posting yeah, that makes it look sexier, yeah.
Chris Collie
05:41
Excellent question. What I would suggest that you do is find a person in your company who is very creative. If you have a creative writer in your office, okay, have them write that posting for you. So it should be. We believe in giving back to the community, we're a strong believer in environment or we subscribe to disability, whatever it is that, or a story, right? The company founder started it with one office. We have two today. We believe that every human being is entitled to good health care. So, whatever your story is, tell that first and then go and tell what everybody's just telling. And that's kind of where that becomes important. So on the exterior, looking into the company, I'm like, wow, it's interesting. I like what they're doing. They're different. Let me give them a shot.
Josh Fertel
06:34
Let's do the flip side of that, because my experience with Indeed and companies like that is you do the post and you get a thousand responses. Yeah, what do you look for from the hiring point of view that sets somebody to stand out? What are you looking for?
Chris Collie
06:50
Got it. So I'm looking for a person that's in full alignment with our company mission, vision, values and culture. Very often you hire persons incredibly talented. They're really technically competent, Right To work in a doctor's office, yes, but it's not a good fit culture fit for the company. So they may either love to work for a company that's more informal but your company is very formal they're wonderful, it's not a good fit. Or the reverse is also true. So begin to look at are they a good fit for my company from a cultural perspective? That a good culture fit. One of the things I'll share with office managers is that make your job process and interview an intense but short. So by that I mean you want to kind of screen out people we don't want. Yes, Having a thousand applications may not be a good thing. No, it's horrible.
07:42
You want to get it down be a good thing?
Josh Fertel
07:44
No, it's a horrible thing. It's horrible. You want?
Chris Collie
07:45
to get it down to a number that makes sense. So the real story today for an office manager, they'll do a job posting for a tech, right Today. In the past they would get 100 resumes. People call in I want a job, pre-covid, correct Tons of stuff lines up at your door, want come and knock it. Today you put a job post and, oh, you get 20 responses. You've scheduled some interviews and 10 interviews scheduled right. Uh, five may show up to that interview and then you hire one and you keep your fingers crossed and monday morning when I show up to work, that's the reality today.
08:19
So, right, if, if you're one of the mainstream, that's the result you will get. So you able to screen people out who love to work for your company. So by that I mean I would push a survey out, for example, a questionnaire. Okay, so I want to make sure that the technician is technically competent, right? So what I would do with that is put together a quiz online 20, 30 questions that if you're a technician, you should be competent in these areas to know that If you don't pass that, don't talk to me. Right? So I'm screening that people that group out, and then also the person who says I don't want to do that they may not be a good fit for your company If they're not even going to fill out the survey and then also say to the office manager that part of your interview process must focus on not just technical skills but also on culture, fit Absolutely and alignment with your company mission?
Josh Fertel
09:11
Absolutely, because most of the time again, you're not dealing with thousands of employees, you're dealing with five, 10, maybe 15 employees. Yes, and they're all in. You know, not everybody's going to get along with everybody else.
Chris Collie
09:23
And the truth also. Very often I've seen where an A player and I constantly use the word A player where an A player will come into your organization and they'll come for the interview and the interview experience is horrible. They walk in, nobody expected them. They actually sit on a bench somewhere. Somebody stuck a clipboard in their face, face out, and then the interview was scheduled for 10 o'clock. They finally get around to talking to you at 10.30, 10.45. You leave no follow-up, nothing. Now that may work very well and may be tolerated by a C player, correct, a player isn't going for that.
10:05
You're not up to my standards. So very often what I will do is say to a client put a notice out at the reception Welcome, Josh. Right, you like it for an interview? Yes, Welcome Josh. Make sure Josh is given water or coffee and treat it as if it's a client or a patient coming into your office so that what you say in your posting about who you are, what you believe in, they see and experience it even from the interview process they're doing.
Josh Fertel
10:32
And the interview itself. You're leading me down a path. I love it. The interview itself. And you're looking. What kind of questions are you asking to find the culture? Let's just say they have the education, they have the experience to do the position that you want. What questions, what kind of things are you asking to find that culture fit?
Chris Collie
10:52
The first step is really understanding what is your culture within the organization. So if part of our culture is about family okay, and you said you know part of our culture we treat our team like a family then you want to be able to pose some questions to that candidate to figure out is that something that they like? So a question I would pose, for example, is tell me about what you enjoyed most about working for XYZ Clinic.
Josh Fertel
11:17
Okay.
Chris Collie
11:19
And they'll say I love the fact it was fast-paced, I love the fact that you were left alone to do your job. It was very focused on results, right. You want to listen to that, though. Okay, absolutely To say, well, my office is slow-paced, right, my office tend to micromanage a little bit more, so they may not be a good fit for your organization. So you want to listen to what they liked about their organization, right, and then also begin to think about, well, how does that match up to my own company? Right, and it will be a good fit for both of us?
Josh Fertel
11:52
Yes. So just for example, you had this A player came in and you know this person can get the job done, but they want a fast pace and you're a slow pace. How do you handle that? Do you take a shot? Do you say this is not the person for?
Chris Collie
12:07
us? It's a very good question, josh. My easy answer to that is hell, no, not because they're not a nice person or they would not be technically fit, but they're always going to have this push Okay, fast versus slow. Okay, organized versus disorganized, okay, micromanaged versus leave me alone, right, right. It's constant push and pull within the team and within the leadership group and in doing that it may create for you, a toxic environment for your office. They may want to say this is not a good fit for either one of us. You're wonderful, we're not a good fit. Actually, I know another doctor's office I could be a good fit for.
Josh Fertel
12:47
Oh, that'd be nice. Okay, so now we've hired our person. We talked about job description. What is a good job description? What does it entail?
Chris Collie
12:57
Good so the first step is one make sure we have one. Oh, that is the first step, Because very often I'll speak to a person, a client, and they will say well, I don't have a job description, Right.
Josh Fertel
13:08
And I still find that, not More often than not, right.
Chris Collie
13:11
So if you don't give a job description, what are employees doing? Whatever they want, whatever, whatever they want, whatever they want. No, people with a job description. They're going to do whatever they want, right. But at least you could hold them accountable yes, at least you hold them accountable to that, right. And so we need to create one. That makes sense.
13:25
The other thing I say to a small business larger companies can call a person like ourselves and then say create for me a whole suite of job descriptions, right? Smaller companies can't do that. So my recommendation to them is let's say you have a receptionist. Okay, you go to that receptionist and say here's a fill out for me, chris, what is it that you think your job is? Okay, I'd give them a template for you to do that and have them complete that. Okay, go to your tech and ask them the same thing Fill this form out for me your position, what your key jobs are, your responsibilities. Fill that out for me, and then let's work on it together. So have the existing team for you, give them a template and have them fill that out so they're involved also in that process Exactly.
Josh Fertel
14:09
And have you seen success in doing it that way? What have you seen as the results of doing?
Chris Collie
14:14
it that way. Absolutely because it's not anymore top-down Right, it's a village that's created. That Absolutely because it's not any more top-down Right, it's a village that's creating. That's the document. I have some skin in the game, yes, in doing that, because I gave you the job descriptions. When I sit with you for your quarterly review or your annual review, we're going to talk about a document that you kind of created, right, you know, let's kind of work through that a little bit. Yes, yes, how it evolves, how it evolves.
Josh Fertel
14:36
So we've had our interview, we have our job description. Now we have our new employee. Let's talk about onboarding. How important is that?
Chris Collie
14:45
Absolutely, absolutely Particularly for A players.
14:48
And I go back to that, Okay great Because very often people ask me how long should the onboarding occur, how long should it be Okay? And I tell people anything from nine months to a year and they're like Chris, you're on crack, come on, you're not serious about that. I said, well, think about it for a second. In a doctor's office, for a technician or a receptionist, how many different software will they need to be competent in? Right, there's a few. How many policies will they need to be competent in? How many procedures will they need to be competent in? Yes, how many vendors do they need to know? Yes, how many. And how long does it really take to build those relationships? How many key staff members are they going to need to know and how to build those relationships?
15:29
So, if I go back and think it through, that's not a two-way process where you say, well, kind of, hang out with Josh for a few weeks and see how things go Right. The A player will not walk us to put up with that. So they really want to walk and run. And the sad thing is, for small businesses, you don't have a budget that can burn payroll for one, two, three weeks while the employees stumble around trying to figure stuff out. So you really want to be able to make sure that there is a processing place for onboarding file, exactly so. You really want to be able to make sure that there is a process in place for onboarding. One of the things I would say to the onboarding process is the company leader should spend some time with that new person, it doesn't matter if it's a janitor or a receptionist, and the reason I say that is that owner can speak to them or that business leader can speak to them in the context of here's our mission and vision and values.
16:22
Yes, so there are three questions I usually suggest to business leaders to ask their team. Good, because the question is so, what do I say to Josh? I'm sitting with Josh his first month, two months with me. What do I say to Josh? You know, did you watch the game last night? It's a waste of everybody's time. So what do I ask? So there are three questions I recommend.
16:43
Okay, one I would say to Josh Josh, tell me something that you would like our team or me to continue doing to make you successful. Great, and just shut the hell up and listen. Yes, then I'll also say to them what is one thing that you'd like me to start doing. That will make you successful. Nice, and just listen, right. No, here's a difficult one. Okay, what is one thing you'd like me to stop doing that will make you more successful? That's the hard one to listen to. That's the hard one to listen to, you know. And when you hear that, just don't jump into a massive defense, right? This is a moment for you to listen and for them to be heard, right.
Josh Fertel
17:25
And what do I do? I'm the leader. What do I do with that feedback now? How do I implement it? What, if something that they're asking me to do now and I've opened this can of worms and it's just not something that we're capable of doing Be?
Chris Collie
17:37
honest about it.
Josh Fertel
17:39
Okay.
Chris Collie
17:39
And part of the conversation would be Chris, I love that feedback. I think it's absolutely brilliant. Here's what's causing me not being able to move forward on Okay. Does that make sense to you? Or do you have another suggestion for me about how we could get to where you want to go? Right, so they're more. They're also involved in that process. The flip side to the conversation we're asking these three questions would be if you spend that time to listen and you do nothing and there's no feedback loop, you've wasted so much credibility your last time with them, so you have to act on it one way or the other, you have to act on it one way or the other.
18:17
In doing it, I have to listen to them.
Josh Fertel
18:19
I'm just moving along in the life cycle of an employee here. So you're going to have conflict. There's going to be conflict, no matter what. Somebody's going to wake up in a bad mood one day and come in and spill over to the rest of the team. What's your best practice for something like that, when you see two people just getting into it?
Chris Collie
18:39
Well, the temptation is, say it right, it will work itself out. Hopefully they won't kill each other in a parking lot, right, but time will heal everything. Okay, and that's really not true. That's BS.
Josh Fertel
18:55
That's a ban. That's a ban, yeah, yeah.
Chris Collie
18:57
So the truth is that it's very difficult to engage in that conversation of conflict, okay, but you must do it. You have to, because invariably, what happens is that that person will then have sides. I will take your side, the other staff will take the other person's.
Josh Fertel
19:13
Yes, yes, yes.
Chris Collie
19:14
And so really to jump in and put the two people together in a room, and so we need to talk about this Right. Here's what our company Right, here's what our company mission, here's what our company value. One of our values is that we communicate. We have an issue here. Let's deal with that Right and ultimately, for the company leader or where the office manager is to be willing to make a tough decision, if, at that point, they get a feeling that there's one person that's toxic in this relationship yes, and it's hurting the organization then that person needs to be moved out.
Josh Fertel
19:46
Okay, so that's obviously the next step. So how do we move somebody out who's really just not getting along with people? But their work is excellent.
Chris Collie
19:56
Yeah, there are a few ways. One I'm going to assume that you have a performance review process, so in that 90-day period I'm having some conversations with you about your work.
Josh Fertel
20:08
Okay.
Chris Collie
20:09
One thing I recommend to office managers if you have a performance evaluation process, give them in the first week evaluation form blank. In the first week, First week.
20:19
Okay, Let me explain to you how we're going to assess you in three weeks from now and three months from now and 90 days from now, so the first time they see that document is not after three months. Right Part of that evaluation form should be some alignment with the company mission, vision and values. Yes, and so when I'm going to sit with you, I can then say, Josh, we're just not seeing eye to eye on this particular piece and so we need to move on to a different.
Josh Fertel
20:42
You're setting expectations by then, very clearly.
Chris Collie
20:45
You're very setting when an expectation is set and if they're not living up to it, then you do that.
Josh Fertel
20:50
And your time frame for the evaluation should be done? How often?
Chris Collie
20:54
At least every 30 days. For the first 90 days, okay, and after that you know 180. But again, for new employed, that schedule is going to be very different. One of the things I'll share this on the feedback side is this and I shared a story in the Goldman Sachs where my daughters were younger and they'd jump on the bed all the time and they were like five and I shared that story and my wife at the time would scream at them I'm going to rip your head off, I'm going to yank your feet off, I'm going to dig your eyes out.
21:22
If I keep jumping on the bed. And I'm downstairs hearing this story, right, and I now know that what's going to happen next? What's going to happen next is I get a call Chris, come and take care of your kids. So I go upstairs and I say Christine and Sarah. I said Christine and Sarah, if I keep jumping on the bed, here's what I'm going to do. Sometimes they will stop right and there are also those signs I'll keep jumping, but here's what I do. Know, whatever I say I'm going to do, I do. And so very often business owners and office managers will say Josh, if you come into work late again, here's what I'm going to do and the employee thinks you know that's not like I can rip my head off. They know you're not going to do it. So if you're not going to do it, don't say it, because you'll lose credibility in that regard. So if you're going to do it, make sure you follow through.
Josh Fertel
22:11
How does all this I know this all leads up to helping in retention, all these things that you're saying? Talk about retaining employees for me.
Chris Collie
22:20
So, in retaining top employees, one of the things I find is that we have to begin to look also at compensation. Okay, so a story goes something like this usually your top tech comes to you and says I'm leaving, right, you're in an oh my God panic moment. Chris is my top tech. What am I going to do? So I sit Chris down. I'm going to offer you 20,000 more. I'm going to offer you $20,000 more. I'm going to offer you a 20% increase. By then you're totally emotional. They already checked out. They already checked out.
22:50
So, on, your top people begin to look at their compensation. But the truth is very often that a person replacing Chris you will have to pay more than you're paying Chris. Usually is the case. Okay, usually is the case. Makes sense. So look at your compensation to make sure you're within market. Look at your benefits to make sure that you're within market.
23:10
Okay, in retaining top talent, give them feedback Right. What we know and research have told us about top performers is that they want feedback. They want to be measured. What we know about slackers Slackers do not want to be measured, right, right, and they hate that. Top performers like that. So begin to provide professional development for your top people within your organization, and what I'll say to you, josh, is some of your top people will leave after you've trained them. They will. But my question to a business owner and to an office manager is this Would you rather work with a team that nobody wants to hire Right, your competitors would not care to hire them at all or would you rather work with a team that your competitors will snap up in a minute?
Josh Fertel
23:54
Yes, no, for sure, for sure.
Chris Collie
23:57
And so that becomes that. How do I get to that point? And by investing money, then difficult.
Josh Fertel
24:02
Everything you're talking about really just comes down to communication. Yes, you know, that's the most important thing Absolutely, absolutely, your company. Tell us how you get involved in businesses and how you help? Got it.
Chris Collie
24:18
So on different levels. So we work with some city governments and I'm trying to build their team and making them more successful, veteran affairs and so on. For small companies. For small businesses, we work with leaders in a company to figure out how do I scale and grow my company? Do I have the right people sitting in the right seat? How can I provide the training that's needed to get them to where they need to go? And the other side to that, are there some legal pitfalls that they need to be aware of in compliance in terms of doing that? So that's kind of where that comes in terms of what I do, what my team will do. We also provide training and coaching and leadership.
Josh Fertel
24:56
Do you have a really good success story.
Chris Collie
24:59
Absolutely. I remember one client. She started her business years ago in a garage. Oh wonderful it grew to. I think today that company should be about $32 million in revenue. Nice, and when I met them they could not take a vacation.
Josh Fertel
25:19
No.
Chris Collie
25:19
Their phone rang nonstop all weekend, all day, all night. Right, and I worked with that client for about a year, year and a half. It's really revamping the entire organization. I mean that makes sense. Today they come into office three days a week, nice.
25:38
They come into office three days a week, they work from home for the hard part and then they travel and enjoy themselves. It doesn't mean they don't have issues with the organization. Yes, but what they have is a group of people who are aligned with the mission, vision and culture of the organization. They have clear-cut policies and guidelines. That's their very clear-cut measurement for success what's required for your success as a project manager or tech or whatever that position is. And so everybody's clear what their role is. No, it's communication, communication, communication.
Josh Fertel
26:10
Especially. You know doctors are on call and other business people. They're tied to their phones like all the rest of us. How do you get them to have a work-life balance? And I know that's like a rainbow yeah, a cornice Trying to catch something like that. But what are your suggestions?
Chris Collie
26:28
On two levels, so one for the company leader and manager. There is what I call the 19 shining armor syndrome. Okay, get a phone call. Right, the equipment is not working and I'm sitting there, I'm going to tell you the right answer. I want to tell you exactly how to fix it, chris. I saved the day. Right, right, rather than saying so, josh, the equipment isn't working, what do you think we should do? Okay, and now Josh worked through that.
26:59
So very often we think it's faster for us to give the right answer, but we dig into ourselves and know well we ain't doing that. So, at a minimum, what I would say is really toss back, ask your team for solutions, rather than you delivering exactly because you know it. Inside and middle of the sleep, you know exactly what to do. Just kind of give it out, just pause for a moment and do the other piece in work-life balance. The studies have told us that before COVID, people looked at work and life differently. During COVID, people saw the world in a much different way. Post-covid, business owners and employees are looking for something different. So if you're able to offer remote work or blended work or a flexible policy around attendance or work from where you work. You're going to be on the top of the game in doing that, because people are looking for different things within the workplace, so they're no longer willing to work 80 hours a week and take a phone call while they're doing barbecue on a Saturday.
Josh Fertel
28:01
Right Post-COVID.
Chris Collie
28:02
For sure, pre-covid, sure, they do. They do want some work life yeah.
Josh Fertel
28:06
So people do like working from home. They've gotten used to it.
Chris Collie
28:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a beautiful thing actually, how would somebody get in touch with you and your company? Sure, we're in line. We're at EngagedTalentSolutions.com. Spell it E-N-G-A-G-E-D TalentSolutions.com. Okay, you can find me on LinkedIn. Chris Colley my name. Okay, on LinkedIn. Instagram, tiktok, all the biggies. Yeah, I'm sitting there somewhere You'll find me doing that that's great, and your website we have.
Josh Fertel
28:41
And if I had a magic wand that helped you do what you do better, what would you do with it?
Chris Collie
28:48
That's a very good question. Very good question. I would find a way to help really small startup companies where they do need help and expertise, but they can't afford it. So, if I could advise a, find a way in which that we could help them in a way that's more meaningful and impactful. Yes and so, yeah, that's what I would do. It's a very good question. That's what I would do To help a startup.
Josh Fertel
29:18
Yeah, I like it. That's a great answer, cool, thanks. I was looking forward to having you because I knew that you know your knowledge of something that's just not thought of Right, and really all I try to do is just get the message out there that a doctor's job is to fix people it's not to deal with all the things that we talked about today, and so I really appreciate you coming on and going through what the greatest step, great steps to making sure you have the right people around you. Great Thank you, joshua. I'd love to have you back again if you're interested. Absolutely, it was a pleasure you got it. Thank you, chris. Thank you for listening today. Please follow us on Facebook and LinkedIn and you can check us out at theangrybiller.com.
