E19 Embracing the Symphony of Nature and the Art of Conversation with Rebecca Murray

Unlock the secrets to a fulfilled life with the charismatic edutainer Rebecca Murray as we journey together through the unspoken symphony of nature and the nuanced dance of conversation. Discover how the art of self-entertainment can lead to profound satisfaction and why the simple act of walking barefoot could be your first step towards stress reduction and a deeper connection with the world around you. Rebecca's stories of personal growth remind us that our struggles are the architects of our joy, and her insight into the cadence of conversations will challenge you to embrace silence and listening as powerful tools for understanding.

Our dialogue with Rebecca Murray doesn't stop at introspection; it propels us into the heart of how we share our dreams and the necessity of empowering them with our voices. I'll reveal my personal morning routine that primes me for a day of success, employing four distinct alarms as catalysts for action and reflection. Through anecdotes from my time as a dog trainer and lessons learned in the face of adversity, like battling breast cancer, we underscore the transforming power of teaching and the imperative of chasing dreams with immediacy.

Finally, let's navigate the intricate world of effective communication, where your words can either build bridges or walls. Listen in as we dissect strategies that foster respect and understanding, drawing parallels between the candid discourse of children and the often more complex dialogues of adults. Rebecca P. Murray also unveils her empowering platforms, encouraging you to confidently communicate your shine to the world. So, let your curiosity guide you, and join us in this exploration of embracing our nature, harnessing the might of conversation, and igniting the passion for our dreams.

Guest Linkedin: Rebecca Murray
Guest site: https://rebeccapmurray.com/

Transcript

Nico Van de Venne: 0:02

Let me invite you to sit back, drop your jaw, tongue and shoulders, take a deep breath and, if you wish, close your eyes for a moment and feel the beat within. In a few seconds, you just jump from head to heart and feel the beat within, opening up to receive even more value and fulfillment out of your business and life. And today's episode, I'm your host, nico van der Venne, confidant to successful CEOs, founders and entrepreneurs striving to achieve everlasting fulfillment. Welcome to the Everlasting Podcast with our next guest, rebecca Murray. Everlasting Podcast with our next guest, rebecca Murray. Now to introduce Rebecca, I think the word entertainment and education flows in. You know, a mix that's so beautiful because she is an edutainer. So, like communication combined with education and with practice, she delivers the message in the most entertaining way possible. Welcome to the show, rebecca. Hello.

Rebecca Murray: 1:14

Hello.

Nico Van de Venne: 1:16

How are you today?

Rebecca Murray: 1:17

I'm wonderful today because I'm meeting with you today. I've been looking forward to this for weeks now. Oh wow, it's like Christmas morning.

Nico Van de Venne: 1:23

Oh, looking forward to this for weeks now.

Rebecca Murray: 1:24

Oh wow, it's like Christmas morning.

Nico Van de Venne: 1:27

Oh, wow, thank you for the compliments. No, it's educator, edutainer, it's kind of a work. Words flow in different directions there. Can you explain to us your story, how you got there and especially, of course, how the struggles got you here, because I think that's the thing that my listeners most certainly want to know?

Rebecca Murray: 1:54

Yes, well, I have this picture on my desk In fact I'll show it to you of me when I was barely two years old. I'm in the living room of me when I was barely two years old. I'm in the living room and on the back. You know, people used to parents used to write things on the back of photos back when they were printed. True.

Nico Van de Venne: 2:12

Yes.

Rebecca Murray: 2:19

My mother writes, she sings, dances, plays the harmonica, then claps for herself. And I've always been one to entertain myself. You know my living room. It has been a stage throughout my life to rehearse, and sometimes just to whether it's, you know, living room karaoke and it's just me singing to myself, you know now, of course there's, there are apps for that right. But I have this philosophy that if you can be your own best entertainment and learn to enjoy your own company, then the company of others, and if you have the opportunity to craft an experience where you can entertain each other, that's icing on the cake, but first and foremost, to appreciate yourself.

Nico Van de Venne: 3:07

Wow, that's a totally different perspective from what I usually talk to people about. It starts from within, from within the self, and then you go out and what you're saying is exactly the same, but in a completely different perspective. I love that.

Rebecca Murray: 3:31

Well, you know something that you said when you opened about the heartbeat, closing your eyes, taking a breath and getting centered in that way. I read the most fascinating article this morning and watched a little bit of video. I read the most fascinating article this morning and watched a little bit of video I was just Googling 26 seconds, because it's like our brain has the ability to truly stay focused for about 26 seconds when someone else is speaking. Would encourage us, when we think about it, to be as brief as possible in our communications and then to stop talking so that someone else can speak and we can listen. You know, to keep that ball going back and forth.

Rebecca Murray: 4:17

And what your introduction reminded me of in this video is that the earth itself has a beat, a pulse, every 26 seconds. It's like a small seismic, it's like a, a um, a mini earthquake. In a way, it's like it's this and they've been trying to figure out exactly what causes it. Uh, where it's the epicenter? Is it where the epicenter is? And the same? Like you know, our heart beats at a certain rate, that sort of thing, and if we speak more intentionally, more thoughtfully, for shorter periods of time that it allows us to sync up with other people.

Nico Van de Venne: 5:05

Okay, okay, that's a very beautiful description. One of the things that I've learned in the past because I work with different kind of practices and usually it's kind of the stuff that comes in front of me, is it within a book, is it within podcasts or whatever source it may come from um, one of the things that I've learned is that humans have become so shoe bounded where we we wear shoes and slippers the whole day long, while actually we should step out. My kids, my kids, for instance, they they do not wear slippers in the house. Actually, half the time they walk around barefoot outside as well.

Rebecca Murray: 5:48

Did you almost say naked?

Nico Van de Venne: 5:49

I said almost said naked, but naked feetsies.

Rebecca Murray: 5:52

Naked feetsies. Yes, barefoot, barefoot.

Nico Van de Venne: 5:56

Yes, I'm barefoot today. There, you go, there you go, you're already into it.

Rebecca Murray: 6:02

Okay, I'm always barefoot, yep.

Nico Van de Venne: 6:05

It's something I've lost and I must admit this past couple of weeks, months, I've started reasoning. Maybe I should just. You know you could call it grass, but we don't call it grass anymore. We call it the green zone because we have more flowers of different sorts that are there than actual grass. But I should walk on the earth, really back as in what people used to do.

Nico Van de Venne: 6:33

And that's what I read where, if you want to reduce your stress, one of the ways of doing it is just standing on solid ground and just staying there, and I always love going into silence, but that's something, something now. I you know there's. There's some links there.

Rebecca Murray: 6:52

It's beautiful, yeah yes, right, but well, all of the literature says, and to help us gain clarity and focus, go outside for 20 minutes, be in in nature. There's nothing that can do it faster, and more I don't know lasting, I guess than a little trip outside. And maybe what you're saying is also if it's not freezing, if it's not snowy, take off your shoes and feel the grass between your toes.

Nico Van de Venne: 7:27

Yeah, yeah, I would indeed kind of put a boundary on coldness and stuff like that.

Rebecca Murray: 7:33

Yes, definitely definitely.

Nico Van de Venne: 7:36

Not really my style to go and stand outside in a cold, like some people do these cold baths and stuff like that.

Rebecca Murray: 7:43

But to listen to the wind, to listen to the wind, listen to the birds, listen to the noises that we mostly block out and and take a deep breath in to smell, you know it, to, just to, to experience your senses.

Nico Van de Venne: 8:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, because, like today, like this weekend, basically, I've been building a piece of a shed next to my house and I was going all the way, you know, not thinking just building, building, building because it has to be ready in a short period. They're doing our garage stuff like that, and I was not paying attention to any sounds in the vicinity or whatever. And we have, like this, enormous amount of birds in our, in our garden and and I live in a very rural area, so a lot of houses, but on each roof there is at least two or three birds there, and then you have the trees that are kind of the. The nests are in there, and my kids were walking outside and they were like, wow, it's really noisy outside.

Nico Van de Venne: 8:48

I'm like drilling and shawing and stuff like that, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's nature. And I'm like, wow, so you're telling me to stop right now and listen. And they, yeah, that's what happened. I stopped and listened just for a few seconds, and it's such a big difference where you're in work mode or active mode, and then, when you stop and just listen, the brain starts to listen as well and the body starts to listen and a form of peace comes over yourself and it's yeah, I love that. I love that, I love that.

Rebecca Murray: 9:26

Your children sound very wise for their age.

Nico Van de Venne: 9:30

Yeah, well, they take after their dad. What do you want?

Rebecca Murray: 9:34

Pat yourself on the back, dad. Oh, yes, I will, I will.

Nico Van de Venne: 9:38

Yes, yes, Well, you know.

Rebecca Murray: 9:40

Mother's Day was yesterday. Do you celebrate Mother's Day? Yes, we do, yes, we do, yes, we do.

Nico Van de Venne: 9:46

There's two dates actually, depending on which province you live in. I think in Antwerp they celebrate it a little bit later in the year, but yesterday was Mother's Day here as well. Yeah, indeed.

Rebecca Murray: 9:58

And you did what.

Nico Van de Venne: 10:01

I called my mom. Okay, good for you, and that was it. I was was actually gonna go over on Saturday, but then something came up. Um, but my parents live a little bit away from here, uh, so I I called them regularly uh yeah no, my mom was happy with a phone call she didn't really want. She doesn't really want any, you know, flower stuff and so on. They live in a small apartment.

Nico Van de Venne: 10:25

She's always like if you put anything else in here, I might find my way to the bathroom. So, yes, let's keep it simple and yeah, keep it simple, exactly not.

Rebecca Murray: 10:35

You know extra stuff again. Going back to extra words, there's there's only so much that our space can take in in our home in terms of stuff. There's only so much room in our brain for words. We're only going to remember so much. So let's streamline it all.

Rebecca Murray: 11:00

Let's remove the clutter. I sometimes watch myself, I record most of my presentations and I think, even though I focus all the time you know, because I largely talk about using fewer words, better words, listening more, being more intentional about your word choices I still feel that I could cut out 50% of my words and be 100% more effective Every single time I watch myself. I think I can do. I can do with fewer, fewer words. Now there's a there's a balance. There's a balance there between enough words, the right words, making room for other people. You don't want to come off stilted. You still need to bring your whole self to the party general.

Nico Van de Venne: 12:01

We are inundated with so many words coming from so many sources that it is difficult for our brains to deal with at all yeah, I get that um, where I also I've I've had a training last year in science, discovery and this profile system with colors and so on. But one of the things that I found interesting and I did that with my partner and it was clear that she had a need for a lot more information, a lot more words. A need for a lot more information, a lot more words when she was doing a task, work-wise, and not so many words when we are in our private conversations. We talk a lot. We do actually talk a lot. We're both in business, so she started hers recently.

Nico Van de Venne: 13:00

I've been in business for five years eight in total, basically but we talk about it a lot and in those terms, she's also very clear on understanding who I am. I need little words. I don't want to hear the whole story on how you got from Tokyo to Berlin and then back to Brussels, and I don't need that. I just need to know you were on a flight and you got here back to brussels, and I don't need that I just need to know you were on a flight and you got here.

Nico Van de Venne: 13:26

That's me, that's me, really simple, you know.

Rebecca Murray: 13:28

Straightforward on the other hand, while I'm doing podcasts.

Nico Van de Venne: 13:32

I love, I love having these conversations because you you go into subjects that need more explanation, that need more words yes and it's it is, like you say, a very sometimes a challenge to to find that balance on what, how. What's the amount? You know, how much do I have you talking? How much do I talk? Yes, right, yeah, I kind of noticed that as well on when I I really seen all the podcasts yes, yes, yes, yes it's so strange.

Rebecca Murray: 14:03

Right, right, I think of it as the bouncing beach ball. So we're on a beach together, I've got this big ball which represents words, and as soon as I throw it into the air, there's a little silence there which triggers your brain like, oh good, I have a chance to talk. Like, oh good, I have a chance to talk, which means I better be listening because we're having a conversation, which means that most of the time what I say will connect somehow with what you just said. Then you catch the ball, it's your turn to talk. 26-ish seconds thing. If we go on too long, if you go on too long, then I'm probably going to pick up another beach ball and hold on to it myself, because my brain now is starting to go with words and I can't listen to you and my own words at the same time. So this brevity of I'm going to stop talking, nico, here's the ball.

Nico Van de Venne: 15:04

Yeah, and then I take over just for the people who are just listening and not seeing any video. She put her hands in her mouth just to be quiet there. Yeah, well, yeah, it's true true, you know knowing when to stop. Basically, I know a couple of people who do not know how to stop. I used to have this. I had the seven habits of Stephen Covey training at some point.

Rebecca Murray: 15:34

Yeah.

Nico Van de Venne: 15:35

And they give you a talking stick. It's a beautiful crafted thing, it's like a little bit it's Indian, native American, sorry and with a little feather on it, and actually the idea is to pass it on and have that person who's holding it explain, whatever their subject is, of course, and I've tried using that, but it's so it's awkward for a lot of people, and I don't mean for the person who's talking, I mean for the rest of the meeting right, because everybody's looking at the stick, thinking when are you going to be passing it to me?

Rebecca Murray: 16:11

yes, do you think that's part of it? Like they're already thinking about what they might say and and they're distracted because they're in their own head. They're not really even listening.

Nico Van de Venne: 16:21

Yeah, because yeah, that's, that's it's. It's kind of an inherent human thing where we we love talking about ourselves we do love talking about I've been trying to to learn and that's what I usually do with my my coaching clients as well is they are talking. I am there to ask questions yes, yes I'm not there to tell them whatever they need to do or this or that. And I always love this saying from one of the coaches here in belgium, benjamin ball. He says a coach runs on zero ram memory there's no memory.

Nico Van de Venne: 16:59

They are just there to ask questions oh, that's good yeah it's like yeah sounds simple, but once you're there, it's not.

Rebecca Murray: 17:08

Yes, well, that reminds me of the book never split the difference by chris voss have you read that he is a a retired fbi hostage negotiator, one of the most famous hostage negotiators of all time. He teaches at at Harvard. Now he's written this book. Basically, what he does in this book is he takes what he's learned, both successes and failures, as a hostage negotiator, where lives are on the line, and then applies it to business, to sales.

Rebecca Murray: 17:41

Conversations really is what it is, where in a sales situation, especially negotiation, you don't ever want to be the one doing all the talking ever you need to do what you just talked about as that zero ram uh analogy, to be the one that's very clear of mind, with the fewest words possible listening, listening, listening and engaging with silence, being comfortable with silence and most people are not and that's your edge, that becomes your superpower.

Nico Van de Venne: 18:28

Yeah, absolutely. And now everybody's thinking, oh no, something's wrong with my cell phone, we're both waiting.

Rebecca Murray: 18:36

Well, that's what they say.

Nico Van de Venne: 18:37

Stop talking, and I don't know how long it was like two, three seconds, not even. Yes, not even hey. It's amazing. Silence is such a powerful thing.

Rebecca Murray: 18:47

Oh it's so powerful yes I love what gandhi said about silence. Now, if I can remember the quote, something like um, uh, it basically be silent, unless your words can improve it.

Nico Van de Venne: 19:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a little bit different saying but I think the gist was exactly that.

Nico Van de Venne: 19:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, one of my older trainings, which is it's a more spiritual training that I followed before I actually started being a coach, and the very first lesson was sit in silence and listen to the solution, and it was really directed towards. You know, life is challenging. That was like the major gist. Life is challenging, you come up with a lot of challenges and problems and blah, blah, blah of challenges and problems and blah, blah, blah.

Nico Van de Venne: 19:49

Um, and the gist of the story there was if you want to find a solution to a problem or a situation, go into silence and listen to the solution that will come out of the problem, because usually the solution of a problem is within. And I was the first couple of weeks I was following this training. I was like what are they talking about? I did not understand. From the moment that I actually said okay, so they're saying I need to go into silence and the first maybe five to ten times, it took me two minutes and I I couldn't, I couldn't resist the moving or and it's not meditation, it's really actually trying to be silent.

Rebecca Murray: 20:27

Yes.

Nico Van de Venne: 20:27

And after a while, now it's. I think it's about eight or nine years that I've been doing it, and indeed the chair behind me you see that one with the green thing on it.

Rebecca Murray: 20:38

Yeah.

Nico Van de Venne: 20:38

That's my silent chair, so if I go sit there, my kids know that I'm in silent mode. There's also a TV on that side, oh, so if I go, sit there.

Rebecca Murray: 20:46

My kids know that I'm in silent mode. There's also a.

Nico Van de Venne: 20:48

TV on that side. Oh, that's interesting. Really.

Rebecca Murray: 20:51

Yeah, to have a place that you go, that you will always be silent there.

Nico Van de Venne: 20:55

Yeah, yeah. It's an amazing spot and it becomes a habit, a real habit of sitting there and even yearning for that silence.

Rebecca Murray: 21:07

Yes, wow, and how has that practice helped you in your life?

Nico Van de Venne: 21:18

In a lot of ways, I used to be prone to panic attacks and wonderful fear and all that beautiful stuff as an entrepreneur, of course, or as just a person, because everybody experiences them. And when I started my business in 2020, like one month before the COVID lockdown, which was perfect timing, of course yes, everybody loved that period. That first week, it most certainly helped me to center myself and believe that there was a way out, that there was a future and that there was a next step, because that first week, nobody knew what was going to happen with this pandemic story. So that's one of the things that it helped me with.

Nico Van de Venne: 22:09

You know, go through and it's it's more or less sitting there and and taking something that's happening and working through it and other people might go for a run, or they might go into the forest and or go on or go on excursions or whatever. That's my way, my way of doing it.

Rebecca Murray: 22:31

Wow, yeah, that's, that's fantastic. That's fantastic, just silence.

Nico Van de Venne: 22:40

Well, of course, what you're, what you're doing is is not really related to silence.

Rebecca Murray: 22:47

True, I mean, yes, it is, and it isn't. You know what it is more it is, whether we are emailing, whether we are in a conversation facilitating a group discussion or on stage giving a presentation, it is making room for the human brain to have time to absorb what you say, to get clear on what you're saying, to say it in as few words and as engaging as possible, and also to invite other voices in the room to engage with you. I'm always I mean, I rarely do a full-on presentation where I'm just speaking. I'm always crafting in how to get other people up on stage and give them the microphone, how to go down into the audience and give people a chance to use their own voice, because how else will we learn something unless we can apply it, start applying it and then teach it in a way so that that person can go to somebody else and say, hey, guess what I learned? One, two, three. And now, since they've taught it, they've become the teacher. Now they know it even better.

Nico Van de Venne: 24:07

Yeah, yeah, I see, I see what you're, what you're doing, yeah.

Rebecca Murray: 24:14

I think of it. You know, I was a dog trainer for many years. I have two examples of this. One is the dog trainer analogy. So you can train, you know, potty training a dog, for example, potty training a dog and there's a way to do it. Well, there's a way to do it wrong. Well, there's a way to do it wrong.

Rebecca Murray: 24:34

And when we do it wrong or make mistakes as humans, the result of that is that the dog potties on the floor, they potty. They're not potting in the yard, they potty in the house. That's the mistake that we have made, because we've allowed that to happen. How we compound the mistake is when we go to the dog and point out the mistake that they made, that we really made right, and the dog just goes into fear mode. They're confused, they're afraid of us, this crazy human. Why are they screaming at me? Versus in the moment, training, shaping a new behavior. So we can shape a behavior. You know that. Let's say they start to potty in the house and we're like, oh, and then we quick, we're right there, we open the door and we take them outside and they finish pottying in the yard and then we praise them, like as they're doing it, that's in the moment training.

Rebecca Murray: 25:31

It's similar to ann Annie Sullivan when she was teaching Helen Keller the word water. So water's flowing from the pump onto Helen Keller's hand.

Rebecca Murray: 25:43

Helen Keller can't see, she can't hear, she can't speak, and then Annie Sullivan is signing the word water into her hand as the water's flowing over into her hand as the water is flowing over, so in the moment, training if we can, in our message that we are hoping to impart to make the world better, do it in a way that we can engage people, then we're that much closer to giving them the opportunity to put it into practice, teach it to others so that it becomes part of their life. And so I guess that's why the voices in the room really is the bigger message behind the edutainment, because if you can include others and they're having fun, they're more likely to take something that's valuable.

Nico Van de Venne: 26:37

Yeah, so you do this. Let's say you're on stage, there's a lot of people in the audience and you walk around in the audience and you stuff a mic under their nose and ask them. Yeah, you want to be a very scary person when you do that and ask you that yeah, you want to be a very scary person when you do that.

Rebecca Murray: 26:56

Well, you know what's interesting, Because I let people know early on that this will be part of it.

Nico Van de Venne: 27:04

And.

Rebecca Murray: 27:04

I warm them up too, because sometimes there's exercises where they get to talk and now they're excited to share. There's always going to be. All it takes is that first person and then more people are willing. But I did a session um, not too. It was a sort of a goal session with my story around um, don't wait till it's too late, you know, because I had cancer breast cancer a couple years ago and I found out that I had breast cancer after I put on a one-woman show that I've been thinking about for a long, long, long, long time. It was during COVID. I finally, I just said you know what I'm going to do? It anyway, I did it and one month later I found out I had cancer.

Nico Van de Venne: 27:46

And so.

Rebecca Murray: 27:46

I have this presentation. That's you know, just don't wait. I didn't know that that cancer wouldn't kill me when I found out. Don't wait. I didn't know that that cancer wouldn't kill me when I found out.

Rebecca Murray: 27:58

But my first thought was I am so glad I listened to myself and did it. Anyway. People thought it was crazy. This is COVID. No one's going to come. And I'm like you know what, If I'm the only person that comes and I can stand afterward knowing I've given it my all and give myself a standing ovation, Then I have won. Then I have won.

Nico Van de Venne: 28:18

Absolutely.

Rebecca Murray: 28:19

That's part of this message that I try to. So it's a workshop for people to then focus on their own dreams and I try to motivate them a little bit through my own story. But you're right, a lot of people are like I'm not going to share, I don't want to share, that's just too scary. So I go over to this one table. There were a group of women who had a translator. Their english is a second language. You know they speak spanish, so everything I'm saying is being translated into these headphones that they're listening to. So I walk over to the table and I say I wonder which one of you who here would be willing to share what they're working on, their dream.

Rebecca Murray: 29:06

And this, you know, I'm just standing there. It's like the silence thing. I just sort of stand there with a smile on my face until one woman just gingerly raises her hand, and so I'm working with a translator. She shares out loud that she has a dream of becoming a social worker, but she doesn't have the money for college. And as soon as we hear from the translator her dream, another, a woman on the other side of the room, says we have scholarships. We have scholarships that we can give you and please see me. Please see me at the break. And then another woman in the back of the room. We have scholarships too. Please, two scholarships, because that woman used her courage and her voice to share her dream and now her dream can come true. That was such an incredible moment for everyone in that room and that message of if you have a dream, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with someone else so they can help your dream come true.

Nico Van de Venne: 30:19

That's beautiful, you know, it is so simple, yet it's so difficult.

Rebecca Murray: 30:26

It is so difficult.

Nico Van de Venne: 30:27

Yeah, it's something. I've been walking around with an alarm on my cell phone. I've been walking around with an alarm on my cell phone, so I've got four alarms each morning, except on the weekends because I like to sleep in and otherwise.

Rebecca Murray: 30:41

I get woken up Four alarms.

Nico Van de Venne: 30:43

Well, yeah. So the first one is what's the one thing that I can do today that would make everything else easier? That's the first one. I see it's like a normal text, just a reminder. Second one is something amazing has happened today or will happen today, or has happened today. The third one is this is future Nico telling you, thank you to push through and keep going. We got where we wanted to go, oh, wow, wow. And then the fourth one is is called pronoia. Who can I help today, or who can I be of service today to make their lives better? And pronoia is the verse reverse of paranoia. It's something I learned really recently and I'm like I've put it in there because there's a lot of stuff that you're saying. You know, speak out your dream. Yeah, the world is not there to be against you.

Nico Van de Venne: 31:43

We might look at. You know news and all the horrible stuff that's going on and absolutely 100%, 1000%. There's horrible things going on and there's a big contrast in our world on rich, poor, war, freedom, whatever. But this thing is something like I was in a conflict a couple of months ago I was in a conflict with. I was in a conflict. The person that I'm talking about will talk about was not in the conflict. I was like this person is always asking me difficult things. I cannot cope with how she asks them, how she reacts to me and so on. And I was kind of entering into a world where I was afraid to ask anything or say anything or do anything, because I would. I would get the image that I was doing it wrong.

Rebecca Murray: 32:33

Yes, yes, feel criticized.

Nico Van de Venne: 32:35

Yeah, yeah, but she never criticized me. One time she actually told me I was doing something wrong and then she corrected it and then she moved on. For her it was like a spot moment For me. It lasted so long. So she touched me somewhere, I don't know where Very, very, very sensitive nerve.

Rebecca Murray: 32:53

Yes.

Nico Van de Venne: 32:53

And once I heard this pronoia, I was intrigued. I'm like pronoia, I've never heard of this, how do you spell it? And then P-R-O-N-O-I-A. Okay, basically it's paranoia, which just, instead of para, it's pro and it's like the world is against, is against me. No, the world is there for you. And if you look at this story, even with, with, with yeah, basically the podcast right now how we met each other, um, a couple of weeks back we I asked one person would you be on my podcast? And he asked, asked the other, and he asked the other, and there was nobody in all the conversations I had. Who I asked do you want to be on the podcast? Who said no, everybody wanted to, because it's something fun, it's something that it's neutral, it's something that you just do, and if you're not okay with showing yourself or talking about it, you won't even come on my path. Basically, that's what I think. So to me, it was another clear example of how the world is there to help you, because if you talk one-on-one with somebody, that person will help you.

Nico Van de Venne: 34:10

If you don't ask the question, like you just said I want to be a social worker, I don't have the budget. And just said I want to be a social worker, I don't have the budget. And you stand up and you say that, and then, indeed, these things happen. I've seen them happen with other people. Yeah, that's why I just put it in my cell phone as a reminder.

Rebecca Murray: 34:25

Every morning I get it at 10 past eight you get all four of them at the same time.

Nico Van de Venne: 34:32

After five minutes.

Rebecca Murray: 34:33

After one every five minutes. Can you repeat that?

Nico Van de Venne: 34:36

Oh, yes, I can. So the first one is what can I do today? What's the one thing that I can do today that would make everything else better or easier? Second one is something amazing has happened or will happen today. Second one is something amazing has happened or will happen today. The third one is this is the future. This is future. Me telling you that. Thank you that you've pushed through. You kept going, we got where we wanted to. Thank you, I love you. And then the third one is pronoia. Who can I be of service today to make their life?

Rebecca Murray: 35:10

better. Oh wow, have you heard the phrase four alarm fire.

Nico Van de Venne: 35:18

Oh no, I've never heard of it.

Rebecca Murray: 35:19

Four alarm fire, A four alarm fire. If you're a firefighter, this is all hands on deck.

Nico Van de Venne: 35:26

Okay.

Rebecca Murray: 35:27

Like this is a big one. It's a big one. It's going to take all of our resources, maybe even the resources of another fire department and I was just thinking of. I mean, I think you've really hit on something here with your four alarms.

Nico Van de Venne: 35:44

That's a link I would never have made Using the words.

Rebecca Murray: 35:48

You say you're going to be publishing uh, something soon. I just think there's something. There's something to this method that you're using with the four alarms.

Nico Van de Venne: 36:00

It's very catchy and meaningful yeah, yeah, I've been using it for a couple of months now, especially because, you know I've relaunched my business. I've been you know we're doing something completely different for the past two years relaunching the business, and I needed that motivation, self-motivation yeah, yeah and this is this, is this works?

Nico Van de Venne: 36:23

it really does. It's like every especially that when I see the alarm of something amazing has happened or will happen today, um, it's one of the things that I always, you know, I put my hand on my heart and say thank you, wow, yes, right yes, it has, it will.

Nico Van de Venne: 36:39

So it's something that always it hits you, you know, always in the right spot. And the funny thing is so my cell phone I don't take my cell phone to to my bedroom and my kids are up earlier than I am usually, especially on the weekend, weekend, and they also get these alarms. So they see it, they snooze it or they stop it. And I think it was a couple of weeks ago when my wife was downstairs and she saw something amazing will happen today. And I woke up a little bit later and came downstairs and she's like you know that alarm that you've put out there, you know something amazing.

Nico Van de Venne: 37:13

I woke up to you this morning and that was my amazing thing.

Rebecca Murray: 37:20

I was like oh.

Nico Van de Venne: 37:24

And this is the effect of what, some things that you do in your own life and it sounds like it's simple for you, but it can have such a big effect on other people that it might even reflect back to you.

Rebecca Murray: 37:37

Yes, right, right, and don't press the snooze button on these alarms.

Nico Van de Venne: 37:44

We do not. No, Accept them as they are and just say yeah, thank you yeah.

Rebecca Murray: 37:53

Yes, that's interesting, and just say, yeah, thank you. Yeah, yes, that's interesting. I use the word alarm only in one respect in teaching classes on brevity, and the focus is you know, I talk to people sometimes. They've received feedback that they talk too much, that they use way too many words to get to the point, kind of like what you were saying. I don't need to know how you got from here to there, back here again, everything that happened in between, I just need the bottom line kind of deal, and so people avoid them. As a result, they don't get promoted as a result, people avoid them. As a result, they don't get promoted as a result, their boss keeps trying to work with them to no avail. So when they come to me and they share this, I ask them as you are chatting on with someone, and you notice that they're basically asleep with their eyes open.

Rebecca Murray: 38:55

Right, I mean, we know this. Look, we know the glazed over look people are starting to look around grabbing for their phone. That kind of thing like to try to get away from you.

Rebecca Murray: 39:06

I said do you hear an alarm going off in your head? And then she says, yes, but I press the snooze button and I keep going Like I can't help it. But here's the thing is that at least she hears the alarm. That's awareness, right, that's awareness. And now you and talking about talking about you know, using alarms in this way, that also increases your awareness of um of yourself and your purpose and your goals, both long and short term.

Nico Van de Venne: 39:48

I think yeah it's brilliant, yeah I really need to do something with this. Yeah, absolutely, it's something that I started doing, and yeah and I understand it is yeah and very simple and powerful and usually our systems are cell phone.

Nico Van de Venne: 40:05

These days are almost hooked to our hand yes and I see a lot of people with these smart watches. So, yes, of course, you get the alarm there as well. I don't want anything electronic on my body when I'm sleeping or anything. Yeah, but yeah, uh, I have. I have. I have the the very personal experience of of meeting a person who does not have an internal alarm and, and I think, even a snooze button with that internal alarm during a conversation. Nine minutes is a very long time. Yes, so that person is. She's amazingly intelligent. She has a knowledge span that is so wide and so deep as well that it's amazing even to listen, but sometimes she goes off into I call it it the zone, but not in the positive zone way. It's like she's out of the zone. You know, zone out, and we're in meetings where we want to talk about specific things. That needs decisions and I I've. I joined the team two years ago and one of the biggest issues they had was there was chaos, there were interpersonal issues.

Nico Van de Venne: 41:20

People didn't like people, stuff didn't go right Leadership was very directive and not very personable.

Rebecca Murray: 41:28

blah blah blah.

Nico Van de Venne: 41:29

And I came in and I love chaos. I'm a chaos person. I walk into chaos and I make a structure. That's what I love doing in the work environment. Don't look at my desk right now. I love the camera. It's nicely directed to the rest of the room. That's very clean. My desk is war zone, but people are thinking I have an image, I have an image. I have an image. So this person is as well. She starts when you bring up like a subject that is related to I do a lot of stuff with training. She goes into the whole history of how the training was created, who created it, how many times they were done, blah, blah, blah, which was completely irrelevant to the one decision where we just had to say are we going to plan it or not?

Nico Van de Venne: 42:20

Yes, and how would you? Ah, yeah, you see me coming miles away. How would you tackle a person that does not have an alarm clock?

Rebecca Murray: 42:34

an alarm.

Nico Van de Venne: 42:34

Sorry, not an alarm clock, but an alarm or does not see the social. What do you call it? Triggers or indications? Yeah, yeah, how would you tackle that?

Rebecca Murray: 42:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah, an impression of yourself when you talk too much and you're unaware that other people are in their mind telling you please stop talking, right, you're totally unaware of it and it actually doesn't leave an impression.

Rebecca Murray: 43:06

It leaves a scar, and so what happens then is people are like they don't want to ask you any more questions because they're afraid that that's going to keep happening and I don't have time for that. The only way that that can help somebody is to have a private conversation with them and to somehow impress upon them the, the um, the benefits of brevity. That, uh, jim Vandehe's book that just came out last year called smart brevity is a really good place to to start, because it and a person like that would love it, because a lot of it's just brain science. It's eye scanning studies and brain science, but it's packaged in a way that is audience focused and it's trying to get that person also to be aware it's not about you. We don't care how much you know, we don't care how smart you are, how many facts, we do not care.

Nico Van de Venne: 44:04

Yeah.

Rebecca Murray: 44:05

And and somehow I need to help you understand that we don't care, and to start caring more for for me. And to start caring more for me, you know, To start caring more for your audience than you do for your own voice and these facts that no one cares about. The only way to do that is to have a private conversation To start, which is, you know, awkward.

Nico Van de Venne: 44:31

Yeah.

Rebecca Murray: 44:31

It's awkward and maybe the you know, jim VandeHei has a fantastic TED talk. That's very short, 18 minutes, right, a great book. And then after that and the person can start seeing, oh okay, I see the effect that I might have on others. And then you have, like a secret squirrel, say, okay, so when you're doing this, when you're being Carl Sagan or whatever, you know, what indicator can I give you Like an oral indicator? Would you like a visual indicator? Something that I'm doing with you know, scratching my head, pulling my ear? You know what would, what would be helpful to you that? Uh, and then you, when you see this, you can pull it back in and stop talking.

Rebecca Murray: 45:26

Yeah, I think that's the only way to do it yeah so it's not the way that I did. Oh, how did you do it?

Nico Van de Venne: 45:36

I had a communication training more than 10 years ago I think. I think I was in my 20s and this trainer was like if people don't shut up, show them to shut up. And I was like, okay, okay, let's try this within our lovely leadership role. And he's like I'm going gonna do it in front of the camera so that you can see the effect. But he's like, okay, I know, I understand, it was nice put your hand up to their face really, you know, disconnect the eyes and then take away.

Nico Van de Venne: 46:12

It's really grabbing. Basically, it's grabbing the person's voice and pulling it towards you, which is you're taking ownership of the situation, because I'm holding it here now, close to me, and so you're cutting them off. You're cutting them off actually you are, yeah, you are, but you're doing it. You're. I love what you're saying, but actually we're talking about this point now. Can we, can we, can we, can we go here?

Nico Van de Venne: 46:37

yeah, yeah yeah, and it's not for it's it actually? It actually kind of it kind of worked, but it didn't really catch on right away because I was very far away. I was, you know, like four or five people away, but if you do this and you know you see this really personally it's like wow, you're actually pulling me out of here. I don't know. I find it very aggressive but sometimes it's needed. It's very aggressive.

Rebecca Murray: 47:03

To have some group agreements. I guess If you were meeting on a regular basis, you would set up some group agreements, like we would at the Boys and Girls Club, and I'll tell you what these kids at the Boys and Girls Club. And I'll tell you what these kids at the Boys and Girls Club. I got to witness this last week. I helped them choreograph a dance. Every year there's a small group of kids and then they put on this dance. It's like a lip sync thing at a fundraiser.

Rebecca Murray: 47:29

So this was our first meeting to choose the music. Of course, all these kids have different ideas about the music and then we vote. So we got down to the last two and there were some strong feelings either way on these two songs and so we decided okay. So we've had our vote, we've got a split. Let's hear from you, express yourself, why you think it would be great for this group to do this song versus this song. Calm. They were logical, they acknowledged the other person, the point that they made, they complimented the point. I can see what you're saying. You know it was after we were all done and the final vote was had. I said. I just have to say that this conversation between 12 and 13-year-olds, when the stakes are high, because it's I want my song. You demonstrated how a civil and productive conversation is done. You better than any adults that I know.

Nico Van de Venne: 48:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, true yeah, you better than any adults that I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, true yeah.

Rebecca Murray: 48:56

And that's because they're taught this. They're taught this at the boys and girls club about respect and about. You know it's, it's. State your point. It kindly, respectfully, quickly let the other person talk. They've been trained. So what we need to do is just do a better job of training adults.

Nico Van de Venne: 49:19

Yeah, yeah, I think I remember high school very, very vividly in these, in these subjects I'm I'm actually a trained electromechanic. Don't ask me to put any electricity in your house because it might blow up. It's been a while, but basic construction with wood, that's the limit. But I was so I was in a very technical streaming in high school and you know it's a man's world. I think I was in my fifth year when the first girl came into the, into the group which was in another class, on another direction, stuff like that. But she was a girl in a boy's world.

Nico Van de Venne: 50:07

And it was. It was so strange those first couple of years you had to be the man and you know, really bombastic and show everything and emotion is for wussies, blah, blah, blah. And then the girl came in first step. She was actually these days they have so many different names for it, but basically she has a very manly side on her. She was female but she was very manly as well. So she was able to talk the man talk. And then after that year we had a merger of two schools, a girls' school and a boys' school.

Nico Van de Venne: 50:47

And of course, beginning of the year you can just put your scent on it it was couples everywhere know boys and girls everywhere yes and then the whole language started to change with, with the questions of um, okay, we're not talking man to man here, we're talking man to girl or woman or whatever. So the whole conversation changes. And the funny thing was these old teachers, you know, these guys are almost at the end of their career, they're used to talking to boys all the time. They kept on talking to the girls the same way, which caused a lot of conflict oh, I'm sure right right at some point we were fine, you know we know your audience.

Nico Van de Venne: 51:33

You know I don't like what you're doing, this doesn't? You know? You have to study better with these girls. They started crying in the middle of the classroom and and these guys don't know what to do. The girl is crying and some of them had daughters so they could kind of handle it and stuff like that. But you see a completely different dynamic on generation wise, where now, what I tell my boys I have two boys, so so and I we tell them regularly. You know, if you come home with a girlfriend or boyfriend, you never know. We're always like this.

Nico Van de Venne: 52:03

You know, keeping it neutral, everything is is able to say if they start crying, we just walk up to them and say okay, just cry it out, let us know when you have yeah, when you want to talk about it, and it's I think it's different from these last like 40, 30, 40 years that people are changing towards more respectful, more open communication, more two-way communication on all levels. Yeah, and I think it's not worldwide, you know. Know that's maybe not everywhere, but I think in most of the world it's starting to catch on being more respectful. And if I hear these things, I'm so happy to hear them, because a lot of conflict can be avoided by just going into silence, listening, asking questions, giving the opportunity to the other person to learn, and I see all these things in what you do. It's so beautiful to see what combinations that you make on all these things.

Rebecca Murray: 53:06

Thank you.

Nico Van de Venne: 53:07

Lovely.

Rebecca Murray: 53:08

Thank you. Well, if there's one book actually three books that I could recommend, to folks if they want to dive in.

Rebecca Murray: 53:18

And these three intersect, these three books. They basically have a similar message in terms of the power of brevity, but one is more focused on better relationships, one is more focused on business outcomes, one is more focused on business outcomes. And then the other is sort of communication. Overall, it would help somebody, whether it's email you're writing a newsletter and then I apply it all to speaking as well. So the first is Smart Brevity by Jim Vande Hei. The second is Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, the hostage negotiator, and the third is Words Can Change your Brain by Andrew Newberg, who's a physician.

Rebecca Murray: 54:00

And he writes a lot too. I don't know if you've heard of him. God can change your brain a lot. He's very heavy into spiritual aspects of communication as well, but this one Words Can Change your Brain. This is more focused on what do you call that? Compassionate communication.

Nico Van de Venne: 54:20

Okay, yeah, which has a lot to do with.

Rebecca Murray: 54:23

Stop talking and listen, please.

Nico Van de Venne: 54:25

Yes, a lot, yeah, yeah, indeed, yeah, wow, rebecca, I think people are loaded now with with some wisdom on on all these different aspects of conversation, which is a very important part of our lives. It's the only way that we can express our inner self towards the outer self, towards the other self. Uh, I am. I am so happy we had this conversation and I really, really want to give you the platform right now to tell us where can we find you, how can people engage with you? Shoot right now.

Rebecca Murray: 55:10

I am fairly active on LinkedIn almost every day. I don't post every day, but I'm always commenting on others and engaging with others every day. Rebecca P Murray, and then my website is RebeccaPMurraycom. It's also ShowcaseYourShinecom, because I feel if you can be a great communicator, you are showing up in the most wonderful way possible. You are showcasing your shine to the world and you're using your voice to ask for help, to help someone else and to share your message.

Nico Van de Venne: 55:51

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. So listeners, viewers, go over to those websites and and take the time to get to know rebecca a little bit more, like I just did today and a couple weeks back. I think you're doing wonderful, wonderful things and helping in so many different ways. You know it's, it's amazing. So thank you very much for your time, rebecca, to come on the show today and to the listeners. Check out my new e-book which is just being launched on my website, nicovandavenacom. In the future there will be another website, everlastingpodcastcom. Still need to request it. Something on the to-do list and absolutely remember. People jump from head to heart and feel the beat within.

Nico Van de Venne: 56:39

Thank you very much. Bye.