Hi, everyone and welcome to the Fake Love and Flying Monkeys podcast. My name is Nova Gibson, and [...1.3s] my area of expertise is in supporting victims and survivors of narcissistic abuse and other toxic relationships. I'm the principal counselor, Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counselling Service, and I'm also the author of Fake Love, Understanding and healing from Narcissistic Abuse. In this podcast, we're going to be talking about everything from the initial pink cloud you find yourself on at the start through to the horrific discard and the powerful trauma bomb that keeps you hooked to take your imaginary seat on the roller coaster that is narcissistic abuse. And don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode of Fake Love and Flying Monkeys. [...1.6s] Hi, everyone and welcome to another episode of Fake Love and Flying Monkeys. Today we're going to be answering the question, can a narcissist love you now? The reason I wanted to do an episode around specifically answering this question is because of the pain I see in the eyes of my, my beautiful clients. And, and of course, in the words I read on my pages and online from victims who when I have that light bulb moment, and, uh, they discover that their, their partner or their loved one in all likelihood is a narcissist. They read that one of the defining characteristics or the defining traits is that a narcissist can't love. They can't love someone like you. And I love someone. Uh, you need to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, to be able to, uh, feel their pain, to know, you know, what's going to hurt them at the very least, to be able to connect with someone in that way. And that is something that a narcissist is never going to be able to do. Because in the narcissist size, everyone is an object, [...0.6s] everyone is objectified, even their own children and a relationship with a narcissist, although you don't know it when you first meet them or, or when they're making you feel like they love you. A relationship with a narcissist is transactional. It's about what you can do for them and how you are going to meet their needs. When victims had that light bulb moment, and they realise who they've been in a relationship with, they look back at their, their time spent with their person, sometimes years. And the, the memories, the, the good times in inverted commas that they shared with this person. And to think to themselves, well, if this person can't love someone, then that means that this whole relationship was based on a lie. Nothing's been real. And that is such a painful concept to wrap your head around. And I think, think it becomes even more painful the longer your relationship is. So looks like I've actually given you my opinion around whether a narcissist can love you quite early on in this podcast. But it's all well and good for me to throw my opinion out there. But I really need to, I guess, give you some of my insights into why I believe a narcissist can never love you or anyone. Okay, when we're asking ourselves, can a narcissist love me? I think it's really important to ask yourself what is my version of love. Because it's really just a word, isn't it? Love is just a word unless it is backed up with consistent behavior, consistent patterns of behavior over space and time where [...0.6s] you reflect or you show someone, uh, that they are special to you, that you care about them. So love to me, and I'm assuming love would mean the same thing to all of you listening is when we feel connected to someone emotional, we care about what happens to them. It's genuine. We, we have empathy and we can feel the pain. We, we would never intentionally try to hurt that person. It's about standing up for them and protecting them even when they're not there. It's about compassion, kindness, trustworthiness, and loyalty. I'm sure you can think of many more things to throw in the mix there around how you feel about that special someone in your life. But in a nutshell, love makes you feel good. It's supposed to make you feel good, and it's supposed to make you wanna make the person you love feel just as good as you feel when you're with them. But it's also a behaviour without that action backing up those three words. I love you, [...0.8s] that's all. They are, they are just words, and I love you. When they are spoken by a narcissist are three of the most manipulative words in the English language. Why? Because they know the value that you and I place on those words. Now let's get back to the narcissist traits. One of the defining traits as listed in the DSM5 is a lack of empathy. Another trait is that they exploit others for their own gain. Now I think, as we spoke about in the last episode, we got an adult in, uh, an adult's body, obviously with an adult's intelligence, an adult's [...0.9s] IQ, with the emotional intelligence of a toddler, you know, a toddler that's all about me me, me. And course they're pretty much stunted emotionally at that developmental stage where everything revolves around them and no one else's needs are important. Now if you have no empathy and one of your defining traits of your personality is that you exploit others for your own game to meet your needs, which are No. 1 in your life, how can you love someone? It's impossible nearly to think of someone not being able to love. And when I talk about this with my clients, you know, they'll often [...0.6s] empathize with their abuser or sympathize with their abuser, thinking what a life, what, what [...0.6s] a barren, horrible existence to never be able to love someone or feel the love, uh, back. And what I always say to that is, um, your empathy, which is one of your beautiful characteristics. Um, it's being used against you, because they don't feel bad in not having the same feeling that you do. Because in their eyes, what they, uh, allow you to experience from them, because remember you're lucky to be with them, you should be grateful to be with this person, what they allow you to feel in their presence, and, uh, everything that encompasses their relationship with you, which is about power and control to them, that's love. So feeling sorry for them because they can't feel the same way as you is a waste of your empathy and your time, because they like the way they are, and their version of love is entirely different from yours. Now remember all of those qualities and those behaviours I mentioned earlier, such as loyalty, trust, compassion, kindness. If you have no empathy, everything is about you and getting your needs met. How can you love someone else because you can't put them first? You, you don't care if they are hurt, because you can't feel their pain. And if you need to hurt that person to get your needs met, then that's what you do, because your entire existence is about maintaining your ego and having your impulsive needs met. Then and there another quality that we give to the person that we love, and we just take it for granted. I think that we would receive back from them is that we want to make them feel secure. Love. Does it certainly not involve making the person feel so insecure that they think they can't live by themselves, or that no one else will want them, and making that other person dependent on us. When we love someone, we wanna make them feel worthy, we wanna build them up, we wanna increase their confidence, increase their self esteem, tell them we're proud of them, uh, rejoice in their successes. We don't wanna test strips of them and tear them down because of our own securities, our own shame, uh, because we feel so bad about ourselves when they appear to be better than we are in, in some aspect of the relationship. Now many of you will remember early on in the relationship with the narcissist, how they said those three magic words, I love you. So early on, and the relationship perhaps was just after a couple of days or, or maybe a couple of weeks. And whilst at the time, you might have thought it was a, a little odd, and perhaps you didn't even say it back straight away to them. But their actions at the time reflected that they actually meant that when they were saying those three words, I love you, their actions, they're over the top actions when they're engaged in love bombing you reflected that they meant what they, they said, and that their actions were matching up with their words. Now in the beginning in that love bombing stage, when the narcissist is saying those three words, I love you, and they are congruent with their actions, they make sense. This is what is going to keep you hot in the relationship later on. Uh, when they start devaluing you and when you develop a threshold that is incredibly high for abuse and a threshold for respect that is on the ground, you will remember that feeling when I love you matched up with their actions. Now, it's at this time, once you're hooked, the narcissist can actually throw those words out there when [...0.7s] the actions are totally adults with the words, uh, let's just say, uh, they've, uh, abused you horrifically, they betrayed you, or they've, uh um, screamed and yelled at you and called you all of these disgusting names. Perhaps they've humiliated you in front of, uh, a lot of other people. And then when you appropriately pulled away from them, they pull out those words, I love you. And you remember that feeling when those words matched up with the actions. And of course the feeling that you get when the abuse [...0.8s] ends is enough for you to override those niggly little doubts or all those [...0.6s] thoughts that are prickling at the edge of your mind. That you know, what those actions at the moment where they were screaming and yelling you at you, that does not equate with love. You, your brain dismisses those thoughts. And you remember the feeling of when there was congruence between their words and their actions. So basically what is going on here is that the narcissist in your life is conditioning you to believe that love and control are the same thing. Someone who loves you controls you, and that love and abuse go hand in hand. And the memory of the actions that actually matched up with those three words, I love you, which was, uh, such a distant memory in that, uh, grandior stage of love bombing. What you are now left with is the actions that they have, uh, very, very slowly overtime conditions you to believe go hand in hand with those three words, I love you. So we've looked at what love is and what I think most people in society tend to think that love is in that you want the other person to feel safe and special and, and secure. Uh, so let's have a look now at what love isn't. And if this sounds familiar in what the narcissist is trying to palm off to you as love now, I think it's really important when looking at what love isn't is to realize that love is not inconsistent. We don't love someone to the moon and back on one day or one hour because they pleased us in some way, and then hate them the next day or the next hour, even because they displeased us. And just because we're, we're bored, and they're not realizing, you know, how lucky they are to be in our presence. Yes, we all argue when we're in a relationship with someone, and we all have our bad days when we don't feel so proud of ourselves, when we're, you know, tired or irritable. But we come back from that, and these are isolated incidents, and we certainly don't make a loved one feel like they're hated and worse than anyone else in the entire universe has made them feel before. So yes, this is such an important concept to try and, and wrap your head around, guys, in that someone who loves you doesn't abuse you, and someone who abuses you doesn't love you. So when you're thinking to yourself, your brain is coming up with all of these ways to minimize the abuse and, and rationalize it away to, to keep that person in your life, because you become trauma bonded to them. Remember that, that when they're treating you nicely in your mind, and, and the abuse has ended for a while, that those times feels like love. They feel like heaven. Why? Because the relief you get when the abuse ends. Uh, and of course, the thought of withdrawal, it is so [...0.7s] overwhelming to think about that. When, uh, you're, you're allowed to keep going. And, and the threats of abandonment have ended, that relief just trumps all of that abuse because it feels so good, the relief. And when they are [...0.8s] giving you that relief, it feels so amazing because [...0.7s] of the stark contrast between the good and the bad. And we can associate the, the magnitude of that relief with the feeling of love. And of course, when we're in withdrawal [...0.7s] because we're trauma bonded, we're addicted to this toxic roller coaster. When we're in withdrawal from that toxic cycle of polarized highs and lows, [...0.7s] the breadcrumbs they give you, or when the honeymoon face starts up again, that can feel like love because [...0.8s] of [...0.6s] the abuse ending, and because of the relief that you feel. But not only that, but because when you're in withdrawal, you ruminate about your abuser. You think about them 24: 7 just like a heroin addict when they're in cold Turkey, thinks about their drug 24 hours a day. Because it's a person. Uh, we [...0.8s] associate that feeling of, of missing them and thinking about them 24 hours a day. We think that's love. And therefore our brain is gonna come up with all of these ways to make the abuse not as bad as it is because [...0.7s] this person loves us. And all of these strategies and techniques and concepts come into play to have you believe that their actions, they are engaging now, which are so far removed from the words as they should, uh, be felt and, and described by someone. They [...0.6s] mean love. And that's what you're feeling at that time, and that's what you are conditioned to believe that love looks like, and you normalize it. So when we meet someone who's really, really nice to us in the beginning, and they're doing all of the right things, they're making you feel special. How do you know when they're saying those words, whether they are, are bombing you, whether they mean those words? I mean you know, we're not all a clinical psychologist, so how are you supposed to tell someone might be genuinely in love with you after a few days, because you are that special to them. And, and you don't wanna just throw the baby out with the bath water, and you don't wanna let someone get away from you. If this person really could be the one, how are you supposed to tell? Well, [...0.8s] I think to begin with that someone who has a healthy sense of self and a healthy normal emotional intelligence is not going to throw those words out when [...0.7s] it is early days in the beginning what the narcissist does. They're going to have a sense of not only protecting you, [...0.7s] but also protecting themselves, and also picking up on the, the societal belief that that's, kind of, not healthy thing to do. And that, you know, someone coming on that thick and fast might be looked on as a bit desperate. That's not to say that there's not relationships out there where, uh, a couple has been madly passionately in love from, uh, the second they laid eyes on each other till, till the moment one of them died. And they, they knew they were in love when they first met, not say that those, you know, sort of romantic movies, uh, don't come to fruition once every blue moon, but that would be it, guys, uh, once in a Blue Moon. Uh, love is not like the movies. Uh, your movies like The Notebook, I think [...0.6s] really [...0.6s] don't support, uh, people having a healthy notion and version of love where the, the couple, uh, potentially treats each [...0.6s] other badly. And there's this push pull, push pull, and, uh, no respect for someone's boundaries, and they told them to back off and to, you know, just give them some space. But that person is just overwhelmed them, walked all over their boundaries, because they love them so much. You know, I don't think that movies like that are, are [...0.6s] do us any [...0.7s] justice, uh, or do your relationships any, any good. Because they are conditioning us to believe that it will be this amazing romantic ending that gives you goose bumps. When, uh, in the beginning. The, the reality was this person said, I'm gonna make you like me. I'm gonna override all of your boundaries, and eventually I'm gonna wear you down, and you're going to, uh, be mine. You're going to accept my version of love, because I've worn down your boundaries enough. Um, so, yeah, guys, that's the movies, and I think, uh you know, that some producers have got a lot to answer for, or maybe it's just that we, we do idealize love, and we think that no matter what, it will all work out in the end. But it doesn't. And you will know that [...0.6s] that sort of roller coaster in a relationship where there are consistent patterns of behaviour over space and time, not isolated incidents. That roller coaster is not based on passion, it's based on toxicity, and it ends with just as big a bang as it begins with. So the narcissist is going to be nice. They're not going to reveal their true self, the person who abuses you to begin with, or you would never stay. They could never hook you in, and of course, they're going to be over the top and everything, so that you now have that knowledge that [...0.6s] a narcissist love bombs you, that gotta be bigger and better than everybody else to refute their internal shame, and of course to get that dopamine flowing in you, and to get you hooked quick, to enmesh with you quick before you see who they really are. That whirlwind just takes up every part of your existence, and you enmesh with them, and you, you think to yourself, [...0.6s] I, I can't let this person go, and it feels so good, so you're, you're happy to, uh, I guess, give away all of your previous notions of love, because this whirlwind keeps you from rationalizing your way through what is actually going on. So they're nice to you, they're very nice to you in the beginning. One huge red flag that you can pick up on in time, and hopefully you will pick up on that will enable you to see that this person is, uh, manipulating you. Is the fact that these behaviors in a normal relationship. If that person that says they love you is a bit grandiose, that's just part of their personality. Those behaviours remain in that, you know, it doesn't come to a screeching halt. Yes, the love bombing stage or should I say the honeymoon phase happens with most relationships, and it gradually dies down until we become, you know, in more of a friends relationship with our intimate partner. That's normal. You know, the flowers, kind of, die out and, and come back at certain times, um, as does the, the chocolates and, and other extravagant gifts. But it, it's, kind of, a, a slow, uh, decline where there's no screeching halt. And of course, there's no making you feel bad, because you maybe expect some of those things. If it's your birthday or Valentine's Day, or, you know Christmas, or to celebrate some success in your life. That is one way that you can tell that this person's actions are very short lived because they've gone from 100 to zero, you know in a very short space of time. Not only that they're [...0.6s] telling you when you let it be known that you've noticed this, like, why don't you message me and tell me you love me anymore? Why don't you ever, you know do special things for me, used to do it all the time. When you notice those things, they will [...0.7s] tell you that you don't deserve them, and that's all finished now. And, and you're selfish for expecting that, that will make you feel bad. And [...0.6s] they have set you up by going from 0 to 100, where you were having, you know gifts and, and, and words the equivalent of once again a hallmark greeting card thrown at you all the time. And now you are berated for expecting, um, just a good mannered text around what time they'll be home for dinner. Innocence. When you love someone, you can't just switch it on and off like a tap. This is another reason how you know that the narcissist never loved you painfully. Uh, that knowledge comes to you now, because someone who loves you doesn't do that. Now a narcissist can switch their fake love, hence the title of my book, they can switch their fake love on and off Michael Light switch. Because [...0.8s] they didn't love you to begin with. A narcissist objectifies everyone they attach to [...0.8s] another individual to drain them of everything that is good about them, and to have their own needs met. When the narcissist is telling you how much they love you, what they mean is [...0.8s] they love the way you love them. They love the way you [...0.6s] try to please them, even though they're treating you like garbage. And they keep shifting the goal post. I love how you hang in there and, and try to do better next time, and how you blame yourself, and that you just get up, you dust yourself off, and you continue again and again to make them really love you, and to get back the person the person they pretended to be in the beginning. When the narcissist is throwing out those words, those three manipulative words, I love you in the beginning. When they love bombing you, what they really mean is [...0.6s] I love how you worship me, when I'm pretending to love you, when I'm throwing myself at you, and leading you to believe that you're special, then it makes me feel so good when you put me on a pedestal. What the narcissist means when they say I love you is that they love the feeling of power they get when you tolerate their in their mind perceived bad behavior. They love it that you allow them, uh, because they conditioned you to do so over time. They [...0.8s] love it when you allow them to blame shift, and to make you the one that's responsible for any issues that are going on in the relationship. And they love it how they can flip [...0.6s] script, and you actually end up apologizing for something you did wrong 20 years ago. When they fooled you, and you [...0.6s] let them go. They didn't have to be accountable. They love how you do that. They love the way they can jip you, and [...0.7s] you're so gullible, you're so stupid that they can lie, [...0.6s] and you just believe it and that they can just come up with the craziest arguments when they're gaslighting you, and you will actually find some validity in what they're saying. They love that then they can just say something totally nonsensical and you sit there and actually ponder it for a while, trying to work out what they actually mean. I love you to a narcissist means they love the fact that you hang in there for so long, thinking you can change them, and you can bring back that person you fell in love with and more for you. They think the joke's on you. They think because that person never existed, and they love it that you actually believe that one day you will get that person back. They love the fact that can just chuck you out some bread crumbs and you take the bait every time. They love it. They love you when [...0.6s] you hang in there and you're able to survive on those breadcrumbs they have conditioned you to believe is love to them, I love you means I control you, and you should be so grateful that I love you so much. If I didn't love you so much, I could care less about what you wore or when you got home or who you're talking to. You could go and do what you want. That's how much I love you. That's what love means to a narcissist. One other thing that is terribly painful for victims to come to terms with when they realize a narcissist cannot love, is that it kind of brings to fruition, to reality what the narcissist told them or implied to them over and over and over again, which is they're in unlovable, there's something wrong with them. Nobody else will love them because they are so flawed. And that if [...0.6s] that's true [...0.7s] and they're not lovable, then what is the hope for them? Who is going to want them? And this feeds into, uh, the, the better, the devil, you know uh belief, and, and often keeps them stuck with their abuser. So if that's what you're grappling with, and, and you're thinking, well, if, if they can't love me, and I am so unlovable, because the, your abuser has conditioned you to feel that way, and no one else is gonna want me. Please remember that is what the narcissist wanted you to believe, and they lied to you. You are so worthy of love, and the narcissist inability to love anyone other than themselves, and the fact that you did feel those feelings. And you now know that they were very real for you. But you now know that, that relationship was one sided, that has nothing to do with your worth or your ability to be loved. And it has everything to do with the narcissist capacity to manipulate, and of course, that, that void that they have, which is a bottomless hit where they are unable to give to anyone else. And, um, all they do is, is take, take take from everyone else. The reality is that a narcissist can't and didn't love you, not because there was anything wrong with you, but because there was a whole lot wrong with them. They [...0.6s] objectified you. They didn't love you for you and all those amazing little idiosyncrasies, your laugh, your, your beautiful qualities, everything that makes up who you are. And instead, they looked at you as an object. And when you could no longer serve them or you [...0.6s] out Sean, you're used by date, then they discarded you. And they looked around for a full tank, someone who hadn't yet been abused that they [...0.6s] could condition to believe that love and control are the same thing, and love and abuse go hand in hand. The narcissist loves you like they love a new toaster they just bought, or perhaps it's a, a new coffee machine with all the gadgets on it that makes the, the most amazing bruise. And when those appliances start to break down, they get rid of them, and they get a newer model, and they don't look back to the old. When someone can do that with no thought or, or feeling around how someone that they just thrown away feels about that, [...0.7s] that is not love. And that shows you that they never loved you because of who they are. The new car they buy will be amazing and they'll drive it everywhere and they will think to themselves, oh, everyone must be pretty envious of me and this, you know new, brand spanking, uh, shiny latest model, whatever it is and eventually the car's going to get older and perhaps they trash it and never look after it, never put it in for a service and that it's no good anymore. So what do they do? They get rid of it. What is the sense in keeping around something that doesn't work anymore? It doesn't occur to them that the brand new car they once professed to love, uh, is not running smoothly anymore because they trashed it. All that matters is that it doesn't meet their needs. It's not useful to them anymore. So they get another one and they never look back to the old as being of any importance in their life whatsoever. Now I really hope that this podcast has been able to help, especially those of you who are still with that toxic person in your life, and you're confused all the time. You're, you're just thinking, I just need to try harder and I will get back that person [...0.7s] that professed to love me in the beginning and made me feel so, so special. I really hope that this helps you to understand that someone who loves you doesn't flip on a dime into someone who makes you feel worse than anyone else and professors to hate you on some or most of the other days. Those two people don't exist in the same body. And for those of you who have managed to escape or if you've been discarded, I really hope that [...0.6s] if you're grieving, which you need to do, you need to grieve your losses, not the monster you now know them to be, but you need to grieve you. And of course, you need to grieve a relationship. And you got the double whammy of needing to grieve a relationship that never was because now you know that they can't love and that it was one sided. That doesn't mean, mean that your feelings weren't real. They were very real. And that's why it's so important should grieve. I really hope that you understand that now that you know a narcissist does not [...0.9s] possess the traits to love anyone, not even their own children. That when you remember them saying those words and how special it made you feel at the time, that there was nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you for taking someone at face value and believing what they tell you, especially when they compromised your ability to see red flags for what they really are. Every relationship with a narcissist is transactional. It's about what you can do for them. But just remember, they know what they're doing. They know what love is. They just don't feel it. They have cognitive empathy and they have a normal to high [...0.6s] IQ. They know what society deems love to be. That's why they can throw it out in abundance in the beginning and hook you on that feeling. It's just that they don't actually feel it, so don't [...0.6s] mistake or go down that rabbit hole, I guess, of feeling sorry for them, or, uh, perhaps making an excuse in that they don't know what they're doing. And if they're trying to, to love you, and they're using those words, and sometimes they're, they're getting there, and, you know they just don't have the capacity to love you, that's not their fault. Please don't, because the narcissist knows what they're doing when they're hurting you. They know what love means, and they don't care because it's all about them. And they use those three words to manipulate, manipulate you, because they know [...0.6s] how important those words are to you. Okay, that brings us to the end of another episode of Fake Love and Flying Monkeys. If you're hearing this, then that means that you have stuck through it to the end with me. And I am so grateful, guys. Thank you so much for listening. Now in this episode, we looked at answering the question, can a narcissist love you? Now to answer that question, we looked at what is love to you and I to normal people, what is our version of love? And then we had a look at what the narcissist version of love is, which is completely at odds with something that makes you feel good and loved and secure. We examined a number of scenarios where the narcissist throws out those three words, I love you, [...0.7s] add what they actually mean at those times when we put it through the NARC meter. We took a deep dive in into what sort of person can love. What sort of traits do you need to be able to love another human being? And we also answered the question around how do you know how do you know if someone is manipulating you or they really do love you? We took a look at the manipulative tactics of a narcissist versus someone who is being genuine. And finally, we talked about how to feel, and how to cope, and how to come to a place that acceptance and, and heal when you find out that the person that you thought loved you never loved you at all. Okay, guys, I hope you found this episode insightful and validating. Please subscribe to this channel so that you never miss an episode. And you can download each episode as soon as it hits the airwaves. On that note, it's 5 from me for now. Please follow me on my other social media platforms, where you can just gas with each other every single episode. And until next week, remember [...1.8s] of so much love. And you are certainly worthy of a whole lot more than a lifetime of fake love and flying monkeys.