In this conversation, I get to hang out with Danny Hawawini, an experienced AE known for how his experience as a stand up comedian powers his energetic, and empathetic, approach to sales. We discuss strategies on how to sell better at trade shows, the importance of connecting with people throughout the sales cycle, and the value of authenticity in sales.
We also touch on the need for personal connection in virtual interactions, tons of 90's nostalgia, and the value of pursuing passions outside of work.
In this conversation, I get to hang out with Danny Hawawini, an experienced AE known for how his experience as a stand up comedian powers his energetic, and empathetic, approach to sales. We discuss strategies on how to sell better at trade shows, the importance of connecting with people throughout the sales cycle, and the value of authenticity in sales.
We also touch on the need for personal connection in virtual interactions, tons of 90's nostalgia, and the value of pursuing passions outside of work.
Hi, and welcome to Go To Market After Hours. This is a safe space for marketers, AEs, CSMs, and everyone else who's stuck in that B2B SaaS Growth hamster wheel. Grab your comfy blanket, your emotional support animal, and your go -to beverage of choice, and join me for another exciting Go To Market conversation. Hi everybody. Thanks for tuning in today. I have an awesome guest, Danny Halloweeny, one of the absolute best AEs that I have seen work a trade show booth. If you have been to either RSA or Black Hat in the cybersecurity space, you have no doubt heard this man riffing, probably from across the entire convention center, an insane amount of energy and an even more insane amount of empathy that this guy brings into his sales process. And so really excited for everyone who hasn't met Danny to meet him and to learn from him. Because why do a trade show if you're going to walk away with nothing? So we're going to spend a lot of time today talking about trade shows. We'll talk about kind of how sales has shifted through the years. And we will dig in a little bit to Danny's side hustle of. Stand -up comedy. So Danny, I'll kick it over to you to start. Maybe give the listeners a short recap of your career. Like what's your bio? Where have you been? And what are you up to? Yeah, that's a hell of an introduction and thank you for that Mark. I will, I'll try to not prove you wrong throughout this entire podcast episode here, but we'll do what we can. A little bit about me. I have worked at companies of all sizes, kind of from the very, very, very large to the very, very small. You know, I'm at a nice little Goldilocks spot right now. So I've seen a lot of things, I've jumped into a lot of verticals from video conferencing to where I'm at obviously now, security. Yeah, it's been a ride, but to your point, try to make it about the people regardless of whatever the hell technology might be. So yeah, glad to be here, man. When I first met you, it was at the AWS reinvent trade show and it was on the show. It was on the show floor and there was this like whack -a -mole game and you were like shouting and bringing everybody into their bro and their brother into the booth just to play this game. Really, really stood out. How do you? How do you approach something like that where you took your energy to like a level 13 out of 10 right out the gate? It's honestly part of it is just that we're in Vegas for that one specific show It kind of brings that out of you. I guess The other side is I don't know It's you know, you already kind of alluded to the stand -up comedy side of it where I'm very comfortable with a light shining You know the way I look at being at a trade show kind of what your job is working one of those booths is just to Get people excited and make sure people are having a good time Lord knows they can go and get whatever kind of technical demos and conversations and whatever they want to have. But if they're just walking around, they're probably going to be drawn to what looks fun. Somebody who seems like they'd be a good hang. And, you know, well, I've just chatted with a bunch of nerds here, somebody who actually looks interesting. Shout out to my nerds, obviously. I mean, that's affectionately. But yeah, it's just trying to be fun, man. Part of it is honestly trying to get through the day myself, right? Like... If I am not having fun, then it's gonna be a real shitty time for me too. What are your hacks on getting through the day? Is it making sure that you've got comfortable shoes? I mean, you stay hydrated. What's in your sales go bag when you're heading to a trade show like that? lot of water, throat drops. Honestly, the footwear, I can get by with less than comfortable shoes or whatever it may be. I mean, hell, I've worked a show floor with, and this is gonna age me a little bit here, but really bad sciatic pain, where I could barely stand, but I was like, I can talk. So it's like, again, it's the... the performative, I guess, aspect, right? So staying hydrated though, because yeah, once the voice goes, boof, that's, you know, especially like if I'm gonna wanna like make voices and make jokes and all that stuff, you know, these are the golden pipes, you know, and these babies need to stay lubed up, you know? But yeah, water and throat drops are the essential one -two punch for me. You know, and this may be aging me too, but I always buy like new inserts for my shoes like the week before and I wear those and a little bit. But but yeah, I want I want like fresh inserts before I'm standing on my feet for eight hours and walking like 20 ,000 steps every single day. We have fresh inserts for your fresh kicks, right? It only makes sense. I'm not stupid enough to wear brand new shoes on the trade show floor. no, you got to break that in. a good attention grabber though if you do have, I guess they don't need to be new, but yeah, the louder, you know, projecting and also the louder you're looking, you know? Yeah, I'm a firm believer in standing out on the trade show floor and some of sometimes corporate guidelines don't really allow you to do that because you're you're in the same polo that everyone else is in and that polo looks the same as 30 other polos in the in the trade show hall. But like, you know, is it is it glasses? Like, can I get away with something unique in glasses? Can I put something over the. the polo, is it shoes, is it pants? Like what can you do to stand out? Yeah, shoes tend to be the big one. I mean, I'm talking to a guy in white-rimmed glasses now. So, you know, obviously we've all got our thing. Again, for me, it's just, how can I sound different and seem different? And not, obviously, sound different than I actually am, but actually sound different from the other people you would probably be interacting with and maybe have, you know, come day four grown to be a little bit bored of, you know, whatever it is. But yeah, my material... tends to go more blue as the week goes on to try to find different ways to get people to come into the booth, you know? But yeah, I neg the perspective customers. So how does that how does that typically work? So, you know, you're you're in the booth You're howling at somebody that that's walking past like like what are kind of your go -to moves to bring him in? it's finding the line of, not necessarily making fun of what someone is doing, but at least pointing it out in a funny way to get them to kind of like stop and be like, the fuck is this guy saying? You know, like, so if somebody has like a huge bag of, you know, the, the random tchotchkes, like kind of making fun of that or something. I, I resort to like doing impressions and voices a lot, like, But not like in a way that draws attention to that, but it's just I'll just be talking and then randomly like throw in a Mickey voice. boy, you know, like just so that people like what the hell is this guy doing? And then it's like, word, you want to know what I'm doing? Come here, talk to me. No, no, no, come here. Come here, talk to me. You know, I'm troubled with a microphone is the gist of it. But yeah, it's just, you know, if somebody seems to be in a hurry. Kind of making fun of them for being in a hurry. Like, I get it, you've got places to be, but we'll be here all day, you know? Like, whatever it is, but, because I don't know, I feel like if you were just gonna sit there and be like, hey, sorry, do you have just a quick second? Most people are gonna be like, no, no, I don't. You see I'm walking past your booth and not stopping, so, you know, don't try to walk with me and match my pace, and don't try and slip something into my tote bag or whatever it is. So again, if it's a nerd shirt, you know, like, word, is that the hell Omega concert? Yeah, you know, I'm a big Weezer guy, whatever. And then all of a sudden now we're talking, right? And that's, you know, people want to be talked to as people, right? So if you can call something out and that doesn't feel like it's from a script, that's probably gonna get somebody to at least stop and hear you out to be like, yeah, there you go. Now you're listening to me, come on. Yep, yep, yep, yep, come on, come on. And they're like, all right, you know, so that's it, yeah. I've seen you throw out a lot of compliments to, you know, whatever anybody's wearing or doing, you know, you you tend to leverage that really well to get some attention. And then you followed up with a joke or a or a Mickey impression, which also, by the way, probably goes over insanely well when you do shows in Orlando. I'll remember that if I ever get booked in Orlando. Shout out to any bookers out there. Ha ha. Yeah, compliments do go a long way, my friend. You were correct about that. I try to teach my daughters, right? You attract honey with bees. Yeah, no, you attract bees with honey. Yeah, shut up, shut up. Yeah, yeah. Now I'm trying to think if you can actually attract honey with bees. You can create honey with bees. So, you know, I was not too far off. Bees can create honey if you like just mashed up a bunch of bees that's not going to create honey. Have you tried? All right. a sequel to this podcast. Every environmentalist now is going like crawling out of their skin. Yeah, no, but you're right. That compliments definitely go, you know, go a long way. And honestly, whether it's something that someone's wearing or once they're like engaged with, you know, with you and just shouting them out, like shouting people out, people, Mark, people love shout outs. People just love like the attaboys, you know what I mean? And whether that's like somebody that's working with you. or whether it's somebody that's just walking past or that just had a meeting, like people love that shit. And even if people are like, I feel like it spills out. Like if you and I are working a booth together and there's nobody around and I'm just sitting there on mic talking about like, this dude is dope as hell people. Has anybody, has everybody here talked to Mark Bliss? People come talk, like all of a sudden it's like, wait, what is that guy talking about? It's not about a technology, it's just about a random person. It makes you feel good, it makes me feel good. And ideally somebody walks by and hears that and they're like, that's kind of funny. And then I got the rye and I'm like, you, you need to talk to Mark Bliss. And it all just, it works together. But yeah, it's a positivity does, does go a long way. I know I previously said I make fun of people, which I definitely do. But, but yes, I do love letting people know. I think anybody that's worked with me knows that I love calling somebody my guy. So like, it's just like my catch all like my guy, you know, I feel like I'm Polly D or something, but. Yeah, it goes a long way to getting people interested knowing that you are somebody that is, you know, a little gregarious and positive in that way. It also kind of breaks the norm. You know, that's the problem I think with these like giant trade show floors is every booth kind of looks the same. Everybody has the same buzzwords and acronyms up there. And a lot of the technology is similar. There's tons and tons of just overlapping features. And so, you know, if you're walking past, you can kind of just get lost in the den. of it all. Like it's just so loud, so noisy and so similar. And yeah, I think what you do is break the norm, you introduce something new into the equation, you know, nobody's shouted them out yet, with how awesome their jacket is and completely put them on blast. So they're like blushing and super proud. And then they come in, they want to actually say hello. And I think that that definitely helps. It also helps too, when you have an activity or something that you can bring them into that isn't a demo. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, the one you mentioned earlier, as simple as just a tabletop game where you're, again, slapping lights as they pop up. You know, I didn't even have a microphone during that one, right? So I'm literally just screaming at people. You know, obviously a little bit easier with the microphone, right? Like, again, to your point, like, that makes it very easy to kind of break through the noise, right? Because, you know, you can hear a bunch of people talking about AI or whatever it is, you know? But like, did you hear about that dude that's like, you know, Elmo pitching me cloud security, like I don't know. It was a weird thing. It made me feel something. But now I'm at least thinking about that a little bit. Whether it's activation from the people standpoint, from the actual activity, obviously where we've worked, huge, huge activations around nerddom and fandom and having people just walk by and be like, what the hell is going on here? That's a pretty shiny piece of bait to bring people in. I can't get over cybersecurity Elmo. If you tickle him, does he just delete your instance? I think he more, I think he, now I'm like trying to think of shitty cloud security jokes, but. ha! Either way. All right, I'm gonna take my hat off, Mark. I'm gonna want you to edit some of this dead time here. I'm trying to think of what the fuck is funny from a cloud security standpoint. It's all so dry, Mark. It's all so dry. But again, if you can just throw random shit like... I can't even think of a funny thing. This is so sad and I wanna do my Elmo voice so badly. I'll think of it, Mark. You'll get an Elmo drop eventually. You'll come back to it. You know, what. You know what I loved watching you work the most on was when you were up on stage with the microphone with an entire crowd of people waiting to meet Superman, you know, 90s Superman, Dean Kane, and everybody's situated in this line that goes right in front of you and watching you use that microphone to just connect with 30 people at a time. Like that. That is a skill right there. And it's one that I think people, I don't know if they necessarily undervalue, but I think people don't think about that when it comes to a enterprise software sales rep. Yeah, I mean, they're definitely in the splash zone in that case. Yeah, it's, I think, hard for a lot of people to connect with people outside of a sales motion, right? You know, if I'm sitting here and I'm gonna talk to you about my product, I might have a great spiel and I might be able to connect with you in that one -off conversation, but then when I'm kind of done with that pitch and you're still standing in line, all right, now what are we talking about, right? And if I'm... You know, if I'm having a conversation with somebody over here and there's 20 other people here, how am I making this conversation interesting to all of these people? Sales has a lot of skills, but there's a lot of like soft skills involved in that as well. I feel like that's something I've always taken pride around is like being able to connect with people. You know, I almost look at it in that case where there's a stagnant line in front of me. I just... think about doing crowd work basically, and I'm like, perfect. What stupid punch lines can I build around a generic pitch? What kind of conversations can I have with somebody that are gonna make me think of something funny that someone else is gonna react to? Again, they're in line to see Superman. It would be nice if they left knowing about our product, but they're not standing in line to learn about cloud security, right? Sure. They're there at large to learn about security, but I'm gonna try to meet you halfway and be like, look man, you're here for a fun thing. Let's have some fun. And being able to, again, just connect as people is, like I said, it's not easy for a lot of people. I've definitely met people that outside of the pitch are a little bit. salesy and not boring, but you know, it's just, so yeah, it is tough, but again, it's how can I make a conversation interesting where a bunch of people are potentially eavesdropping because yeah, I'm mic'd up, right? But yeah, it's a really good time, because again, I can just make jokes and I can riff and I can have fun and I don't know, my, I think. speaks also to my comedy style, where it's like, I'm just gonna say and do what I think is funny, and I will just hope that you agree, and so far, yeah, it's been all right. Yeah, I think you got to get somebody willing to listen before you can start even doing a product pitch. And, you know, a typical cycle. I mean, if somebody fills out a demo form and then you're on the demo, now the sales rep goes right into the pitch. But that's not a trade show. A trade show is they're walking past you. They don't care about what you do. And so you got to first get them to listen before you can ever start to pitch. And that's Even more difficult when you're up there with a mic because I feel like the people with the mics Generally just pitch all the time and you know, you're that person walking by you're just getting pitch-slapped all over the place and so I I love I love what you do where you're like, you know You make a few jokes you get to know like if you can get to know this one person who likes you in that crowd of 20 now at least five other people are paying attention to you because they're feeling those positive vibes, like they've got some empathy and they're like bought in. And then you just win over more and more and more of the crowd so you can give more and more of the pitch, right? Right because when people realize you're not just pitching they're at least tuned in a little bit, right? If I have one person maybe towards the front of the line that I'm like, by the way, what's your name mark mark my guy mark up here? But mark come on mark. What are you been doing? You know, and now we're having a conversation people are kind of tuned in and then you know People are realizing like this is a little bit of a song and dance and then maybe I get somebody else chuckling And I'm like, you like that one, huh? What what's your new who are you whatever and it is kind of like crowd work So by the time maybe you're at the front of the line now, I've got somebody else from initially the middle of the line, that's now up, and it's like, dude, did you by the way hear about this bomb ass technology we got, you know, whatever, and you're kind of jokingly giving the pitch, but you're also giving the pitch, and you're like, you know, have fun with Superman, but dude, don't forget about what we got going on here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy knows what I'm talking about. Hell yeah, right? You fucking love cloud security, don't you? Don't exactly. This guy gets it. And people are like, what the fuck is this guy doing? But it... It works, right? Because again, it's different, it's entertaining. You know, not to toot my own horn, but like, it's funny. I don't know, it's, but yeah, if you can connect with an individual person and kind of start that ripple effect, that's all you need, baby. You just need one person and you can go from there. I feel like that's what a lot of product marketing professionals miss out on when they're writing the elevator pitches and booth scripts and things. I feel like they're often missing the vibe. That moment requires you to create a vibe. I guess it's no different than your comedy, right? I mean, if you come in... People need to be in a mood to laugh before you can start actually telling jokes, right? Yeah, and I have done comedy during some very unfunny times in the world. It's, you know, you almost have to sort of embrace that head on and sometimes just acknowledge like, hey, this isn't why you're here. This isn't why you care. Or maybe this is why you're here and why you care. You know, like, again, there have obviously in the world been some pretty like serious things going on where it's like, okay, how do I maybe avoid certain things? and maybe emphasize certain other things that are maybe a little lighter, a little bit more feel good. You know, again, it's kind of like we talked about, right? The reason why people are there, probably not to, you know, specifically see what our booth is doing, no, but it's like, hey, let's at least acknowledge, maybe even joke about why you're actually here and then talk about like, we're not really that, but you're here already, right? What could hurt, right? Like, let's have a minute, let's have a moment, you know? And again, like. So long as it sounds genuine and it sounds entertaining, right? Again, people are like, yeah, sure, whatever, I got five minutes. That's my guy, five minutes, get your ass in the demo booth. And again, how do you make light of it? How do you kind of work through it? It varies, but it's a fun challenge. Well, and it's storytelling too, right? I mean, like that's the entirety of, you know, your standup comedy. Like you're telling stories, the stories have punchlines. And it's the same thing with your pitch. Like you should be telling stories. It's not feature, feature, feature, feature, feature. You know, if you're standing up there with a microphone and you're able to tell a heartfelt story of a customer that you're working with, that means a hell of a lot more. than whatever 17 slides you were supposed to go through highlighting features that they probably don't care about. yeah, I mean I've had full on, you know, quote unquote pitch decks behind me and I'll just flip between basically slides four and five, you know, whatever the hell they are, right? But where it's like, yeah, I'm not really gonna do that. I'm just gonna kinda, you know, this tells me something I need, this tells me something I need, and those are gonna let me kinda springboard off into something that actually matters to people. You know, you said earlier, right? A lot of that also just depends on, you know, if somebody's just passing by. Well, maybe they don't have necessarily the time for a big heart -filled story. Maybe it is just kind of feature, right? But again, how do you make that interesting? You know, if you maybe aggressively yell the feature at them, or again, you do it in a funny voice, or you'd be like, dude, you totally care about, you know, the ability to secure cloud workloads, right? Your face just screams it, you know, whatever it is, right? And then they kind of stop and smirk, and then it's like, you know, that you're always looking for the gotcha moment, right? And again, part of it is joking, right? But also part of it is like, no, no, I did. get you and you are now stopping and you're coming into our booth, you know, someone's gonna come and scan you, you're gonna get some emails, you're gonna get some swag, and you're probably gonna see a demo, right? Because we found the gotcha, right? So for anybody listening who wants to be the next Danny, like they want to emulate the things that you're doing, I know a lot of it you tie back into your comedy is like an improv class or something, a thing that you recommend to new sales hires. If somebody wanted to be the next Danny Howellini, I would say look in the mirror, choose something different, turn back now, it's not great. No, I've never taken improv, honestly. What I would just tell somebody is don't be afraid to look like an idiot. Don't be afraid to embarrass yourself. You know, like. It's okay to be goofy, it's okay to be silly. I feel like in the world today, there's such like a self -seriousness and that's typically especially true of males. But being able to, again, laugh at yourself, make fun of yourself, again, do things that are, you don't wanna demean yourself, but like that are kind of embarrassing and like, you know, make, again, my comedy, I make fun of myself all the damn time. Right? Because if I can make fun of myself, I have permission now to make fun of a bunch of other things. But I would just say, don't be afraid to be a goof. I volunteer as a camp counselor. Right? I've been doing that since I was 18. And again, what's the key to connecting to anywhere from a five to 17 -year -old? Act like a five -year -old. Because the five -year -old is going to think you're hilarious, and the 17 -year-old is going to be like, this guy's kind of weird, but I guess I can kind of be myself around him. Right? Like, that's it. You're connected with people now because you're kind of goofy and you're, you know, not... You take them seriously without taking like the situation seriously, right? But yeah, I would say if somebody wanted to, I think, kick ass at trade shows or whatever it might be, just don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Don't be afraid, again, to be stupid and silly or whatever it is. Because again, if you're the butt of the joke that makes them the star that makes them the smart one that makes them the the feature, right? But yeah, I've never done improv classes But it's the energy. I honestly think you don't have to have any kind of training. It's just Bring energy You know laugh at jokes really loudly because that person is the funniest person you've ever met Energy goes a long long way energy is contagious. I and Yeah, and just be good to people I think you know because if you're If you're also kind of a dick then people aren't gonna want to spend a lot of time at that booth And so if you're you know? complementary to people You're trying to pick people up. You know that again contagious effect And I think it's so important to in this era of like personality starting to break through professionalism. You know, I think COVID accelerated this COVID accelerated this trend, right? Where you were, you know, your professional self when you drove and walked into the office and then you were your personal self when you left. Well, COVID Blurred all those lines, you know, you had your your kids walking into the middle of video calls it actually became kind of a joke when internet would just cut out in the middle of the thing like Everybody got to see into real lives of their co-workers of their prospects everyone and I think people are just craving Reality like they're craving this the authenticity of people and not the you know, professional, you're in a sport coat or a sweater vest and you're using all the buzzwords and it's all super polished. They're looking for real. They're looking for somebody who's going to make a joke about how they, you know, tripped over the carpet walking out of the booth. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think gone are the days of, you know, the Derek Zulander headshots across the board, you know, like, like my LinkedIn profile picture is like a picture of me and my kids because like, yeah, I am a person, right? I think people kind of realized like work-life balance is very important because during COVID, like you really had to be diligent about like what work -life looked like, cause you're in that same chair, baby. You're not going anywhere. But yeah, I never would have been able to in the past have a quote unquote non-professional, you know, whatever on a professional, you know, social media website such as LinkedIn. But now it's like, who cares? Yeah, so this is a guy that, what, has kids and that somehow makes him less qualified to sell me security? Like is that the assumption? And yeah, to your point, like, I mean shit, look at your background. You know what I mean? Like. We were joking before we recorded like, you know, I've got naked walls behind me here, but I eventually plan to I promise have you know have some stuff that kind of gives it a little bit of a judge but I've had kids and dogs and whatever come in because they're doing the same thing and they're going through the same thing and it's almost weird if you don't acknowledge that I think there's like actually a subreddit which is called like LinkedIn Maniacs or something or LinkedIn something but it's very funny and it's people that take themselves way too damn seriously So like I said before don't Don't do that. You'll be fine. Well, it is interesting that you mentioned like my background and if you're listening audio only you can't see my background It's pretty fucking sweet but I got advice really early on in the you know shift to remote work and remote pitching and all that and they It was told to me like put something behind you that allows people to know who you are You know, there has to be a point of connection and so whether it's like you see a book behind me that you've read, whether you like like vintage audio and you're like, he's got a he's got an old jukebox or a or an old boombox up there or records or board games that you like. There's got to be something there that somebody can connect with. I was actually just on a call like an hour ago where the person was a big Catan fanatic and they saw Catan in my background and that was probably a five minute. detour in the conversation, we were talking about, you know, Catan strategies and, and owning all the sheep and all, all kinds of fun stuff. And so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's important to drop your guard a little bit and, you know, eliminate the, the, the painting that you've, you've, you picked up at Bed Bath and Beyond 10 years ago and exchange that out for things that matter a little bit more. I mean, even down to your wardrobe, you know, it, It matters if you're wearing something that can disarm somebody. I mean, right now, again, for those of you who are listening only, you're missing it. But Danny, you're in a Boba Fett sweater, right? That's right, yeah. Video watchers, you're about to get a treat. It's got a hood, but then, yeah, this baby goes up. Listeners, I'm sorry that you, or actually, listeners, maybe you're better off, because you can no longer see my face. But yeah, you know, any way you can set yourself apart, I suppose. Yeah, Mark, connection points I think are super important. I feel like now from Ace Ventura, it goes out of the right hole. Again. an audio or a video only gag. No, but I mean like, I can only guess how your call with the fellow settler of Katen went after that little sidetrack, right? If I see something in the background that I can latch onto, I mean, it's like we talked about at the trade show, it's a way in, right? And I see that, I'm like, look at that. And now we're talking about that. And you know, it's giving people a way to, you know, it. Infuse more personality into what has traditionally been maybe a pretty dry medium is fantastic Thank You, COVID no notes Some notes Maybe maybe a few. Yeah, it's it's funny like for as terrible as COVID was you know, there are benefits and I think the back to the office crowd To me those are just folks who never ever decided to gain new skills because managing people remotely connecting with people remotely collaborating with people remotely it's completely different And it's an entire new set of skills. I mean, it's the same thing. You know, you and I are, are old enough in our careers that we remember having to fly out and pitch in person instead of doing a zoom demo. and so, you know, there was an entire generation of sales folks who all of us had to learn how to pitch virtually. And it was three years of probably the worst demos you've ever had. because people were so used to body language. And now you're talking to this like Polycom on the table and you're missing out on all of it. And so I think it's the same thing with remote work. I think people just need to develop those skills and they're just so different than what people had been doing. Yeah, no, I think that's totally right. I mean, the energy you get from somebody meeting in person is, you know, it's fantastic, right? And when you lose that, it's like, okay, well, I need something else to latch onto, right? You know, I... I don't mean to like always make it like going back to comedy, but to me it's like the difference of what context can do for a joke. You know, where it's like, it makes it completely different when you're devoid of that context and it makes it a lot harder to connect, right? Like if we are both looking at something, we're in person and we have that shared context, it's very easy, of course, to just be like, look at that. And there's context and you can make a joke and we're both laughing. But once you lose that, right? Once you introduce, you know, a Zoom or you know, whatever it might be, it's the same thing that I was like going and actually doing like a stand -up again where there's no context, that's just me in front of a brick wall. I need to put you into this office with me, right? I need to put you where I am so that you can understand the punchline or obviously the pitch, right? And that can sometimes be challenging because again, you don't know what somebody's... you can't really get a vibe off of somebody. And you know, again, a treat for the people watching on video, but sometimes you could do it in a pitch and somebody's doing this and they're like, yeah, yeah. And you're like, you know, they're looking off to the side, like, are you looking at a second monitor? Are you just not paying attention? Or you see like their eyes are just, you know, kind of darting around and like, you're reading something. Okay, so you don't care at all. Like, cool, cool, cool. But it is hard, right? Like to grab people's attentions and yeah, to have a type of backdrop like you have, like I don't have, you know, so stuff like that is, it helps, right? It definitely helps. It's okay, you just take the Kevin Costner approach and build it so they'll come. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, Mark, I'm happy that it's a reference I understand. Nobody makes more, well, shit, they're listening to your podcast. They know the references you make. I was gonna say, nobody makes as many references as Mr. Mark Bliss. I'm just happy when it's a reference that I actually can pick up on and follow. Songs, I'm a lot better on. Mark and I have an uncanny ability to go back and forth with song lyrics. But yeah. Anyways, that's obviously a conversation for a Las Vegas piano bar. That's true, okay. I It's funny because the second you said song lyrics I immediately started thinking of Cisco's the thong song and I have no idea why so This is just how broken I am musically right now. I know like like I'm legit I got David Bowie and sticks behind me, but but also the thong song or mambo number five Jesus. Mm -hmm. Lou Bega himself, what a guy. He's back. I just saw a TikTok of his that started blowing up. I think everybody wants to have that return like Eminem. Everyone wants that work. That's what everyone wants. One more click on this rabbit hole. Have you seen the music video for that song How Bizarre? How bizarre! Yeah, yeah, the OMC one where they're like driving in that convertible. But it's a really weird music video, right? It's very of the time. Friends listening to this, do yourself a favor, hop on YouTube and go watch that music video and you too can wonder what the hell is going on in the 90s, man. What the hell, what were we doing? It's pretty good though, it's a good video. It's just weird. What we were doing was playing outside until the streetlights came on getting you know getting some extra nutrients in our water when we drank it from the hose and Probably, you know breaking a few bones that just healed weird because we didn't go to the doctor Not an ideal time honestly Yeah, it was nice, you know? I, yeah. I was actually just having a conversation about, like, how it's must be so different being a kid now, and we're completely down the rabbit hole, but, like, you got phones now, you got all the trackers and everything, like, if you want to, like, sneak out, and kids, don't sneak out. Sneak out. but, like, how you supposed to do that? What, now I gotta leave my phone at home? Right, we didn't have to deal with that, you know? Like phones back in the day, all it was was just for showing people your snake high score, you know what I mean? Like that's all we needed phones for. Nobody was calling us or doing anything, you know? I don't know, but now it is, yeah. everywhere. Like I've got cameras all over my house. Like my kids couldn't sneak out if they wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. I mean, there's a lot of good. There's also a lot of, you know, things that we lucked out on being kids in, you know, in the 80s and whatnot. But, yeah. I mean, I'm happy that we had Power Rangers. So like that was a moment right there. I mean, they still have Power Rangers, but nothing nothing beats the first and second lineups of the original team. full time on, you know, yeah, we know. When Tommy came back as the White Ranger, we know. We all, again, get on YouTube when Tommy calls the Dragonzord with his little knife flute. Like, just try to not have goosebumps. I dare you, all right? Preach, Mark. we're you know when you're now introducing the the new white ranger and he walks out I was like, it's telling me like it's so it's so good and and I don't know we were scarred from watching like are you afraid of the dark and all that like like Dead dead man's float still gets me. I'm not gonna swim in a pool. That's empty. I'm just not Sorry, and I will not steal a nose off of a clown at a carnival I actually have a joke about it. Yeah, absolutely. any, for any, you know, elder millennials out there, listening to this, but, yeah, it's interesting how much things change. I was thinking about it in context of like, when I really got into the workforce, it was like right before the recession, like the great recession. And so, you know, I think, I think there's like two. completely different, like, I mean, completely different groups. There's like the folks that were working before the recession, and then there's the post -recession that joined. And, you know, I think we just see things differently. And I frankly, I think a lot of bad habits we accumulated early in our working career going through that recession. And, you know, it... It definitely rears its ugly head nowadays when you're starting to see all these layoffs and everything. And the panic starts setting in anybody who lived then they're like, you starting to see these signs and you're going like, like all like memento on your wall to try to figure out all the, all the connections and that. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's really, really interesting, but I, I think it's time periods. And I honestly think it's the same thing. Pre or post COVID. I think the people. who lived through the transition gained some bad habits as opposed to the people who joined the workforce after the world transition post -COVID. Yeah, I mean there are people that are straddling it obviously but like in different ways. I mean I started a new job at the time in January 2020 and I was like, I'm so excited. You know, I go into an office and it's so fun. And then I don't go into an office. And you know, it's just crazy, right? Because I still felt like I was learning or trying to learn my job but I was at home without access to like. Squatting in a conference room or just having people to like run something by I'm at a job now where I you know have an office to go into and it's not a full-time thing Obviously, it's hybrid which I think is great but like having the option to go into an office to just kind of poke your head up You know Nelson style, you know hitting him with the neighbor and be like hey man, come here look at this really quick like that that is and was missed during during COVID and to your point like A lot of bad habits kind of got developed because like people were insular and they didn't know any better, right? My buddy was, he was like running Zoom's like sales strategy basically during COVID. And it's like, yeah, it was good. A lot of people got paid, but it's like, nobody could actually like learn how to sell the damn thing because like they're just getting calls. And they're like, what's that? Another six figure PO? Cool, cool, cool, cool, get right on that. They're like, selling is easy. It's like, no, no, it's not actually like that. Like, I promise you, you'll have to do other things. You'll only need to learn, you know, med pic and all that. But it's just like, okay, like how do you train people that are crushing it, but crushing it for the wrong reasons? Yeah, it's a mess. And I feel like people have still been recovering, like, or not recovering, obviously people are still recovering, but people are still trying to figure out. You know, like, okay, so things are quote unquote normal, but like, now remote work is cool, but like now I'm still alone sometimes, and it's like depressing. But it's, yeah, it's hard, man. It's really hard, but you know, and then you got like my kids, you know, five and three, and like, they don't know. They have no memories of like wearing masks and being like deathly afraid and like wiping groceries and you know, whatever. Like, they're just gonna grow up and be like, you know. reading history books and I'm like, wait, what happened? It's like, yeah, sit down. But yeah, I mean, there are, I'm sure a lot of people that are entering the workforce now that just assume this is what it's always been like. And it's like, no, man, you used to have to go in and commute five days a week. And if you didn't live in that city, too bad, man. You either move or you don't get the job. And like, it's a very interesting shift. And this one for the better, I mean, in terms of the hybrid workforce. Like I mentioned, one of my first jobs was in video conferencing. And that was a big wow conversation to have with people that were like, did you know that telecommuters are really productive and really happy? Back when we called them telecommuters. But that's the thing, right? That was such a novel concept to people that were like, well, you're right. We never let people work from home. But it is just where we are now, man. How do you get productivity from somebody if you can't threaten them by looking over their shoulder? The things you miss. Actually, I miss decorating my in -person office or cubicle. I do miss that. And then all of the competitions throughout the year, totally miss that stuff too. Office Olympics. So much fun, but also so incredibly useless and I will also say like the whole you know popping popping over the fence and you know saying hi to Tim the tool man Taylor your Neighbor in the cubicle next door. I think you can still do that virtually, you know I think people are worried that like they don't want to you know, like that I think you're worried about the person not having time or not wanting to hop on a call or something but I tell you some of the best collaborative brainstorms I've ever had is when I'm working and I just hit a breaking point and I see it like, here's a green light on Slack. Haven't talked to that person in a while. Hey, you got 10 minutes. It's been a while since we connected. And then just jump in and just shoot the shit. And then you can come up with some of the most crazy, like, hey, what are you working on? And now you've got this great idea that they have that you would have never gotten before. and that's hard, right? Because it's got to be the right person that you're doing that with. I read, was it like Wall Street Journal? I don't know, no big deal. I read headlines of Wall Street Journal. But there was only, what are you gonna, I don't know if you're gonna subscribe to it now. But there was a thing that, and I don't remember what it was called, but it was when you just say like, hey, got a minute, or something like that on Slack, and you just leave it. And that like induced dread with people because it's like, shit, what do they need? What task are they about to set? You know, whatever. I think about that all the time though. I never, you never want to just say hi or you never want to just say, got a sec. but yes, to your point, if it's the right person, like I'd slack you and be like, what up? Yeah. And you know that I'm not about to, you know, mess up your day. but, but yeah, if it's somebody you, you know, work with regularly, absolutely getting to be like, Hey man, you got a sec to huddle. Like I said, I used to work in the video conferencing space like my colleagues were like out and rest in Virginia and we would just Throw up our video systems and just be connected on video while just while we're checking email I don't have shit to say to you right now But we're just working and it's like we're sitting next to each other in the same room like that is a comforting thing Right, but if somebody if you're if you don't have that level of closeness or you know, whatever it may be then yeah to your point It's kind of like I don't know But yeah, one thing that my current company does really well, I think, is have a lot of social Slack channels, like employee resource groups, and just generally like, this is the gaming Slack channel. And it's just like, all right, if my head is bumping up against a wall, or if I'm grabbing a snack and I want to just shoot the shit, there's whatever, what's your whistle? There's a lot of people you can connect with. And I think it's a really great thing, because all we really want is to be able to connect with people. man, is connectivity, you know, and that was the big thing that COVID took away from us. But yeah, I mean, Slack, thankfully we still have that ability to connect, you know? Well, and it's the same way, you know, connecting with your prospects. You need to have the things that that they're interested in and you find that common ground. You know, I get it. Like the whole all the headlines of relationship selling is dead. It's like, well, no, it isn't. I don't think so, at least I think it's changed. I mean, nobody's going to buy your product because you hang out. You know, your product still has to. Your product still has to fucking work like that That's the reality of the situation and they have to have a need they have to have budget and all that fun But I definitely think Connecting with somebody and getting to know them as a human and treating them like an individual and not a prospect I think that that goes a long way because nine out of ten sales reps are just gonna treat them as a prospect It's the one in ten that are that are like hey, how's how's your son Tommy? Did he end up? Did he end up winning that karate competition? Yeah, one of my prospects, their son just graduated from UC Davis. Go Aggies. You know, like having those kinds of conversations and like, I've learned to schedule meetings for longer. And I mean, it's a problem, but I guess it's a good problem to have, but because like the first five, 10 minutes, you know, we're gonna talk, you know? And like, you know, the joke used to be like, you're talking about the weather, but it's like, nah, there's other stuff you can talk about, you know? Like, I don't know, it's, it's, and that goes back to what we're saying, like, if it's, there's some identifier, some gotcha, you know what I mean? If I know you are a parent or you have a pet or you have some interest based on, you know, if there's like a Lego thing in the back, like, hell yeah, there's my in, you know what I mean? And now, and it's not, you know, manipulative, but it's like, if it's something I'm legitimately interested in, like, hell yeah, let's go. Now we got, now we got stuff to talk about, you know? Well, and a hack that I heard about that I've been leveraging that I really enjoy it. It's when somebody asks you, how's it going or how's your day? How's the weather like whatever any of those general things people generally just reply with. It's OK. Or it's it's warm out or like whatever. Tie it to an activity you love, whatever it is, you know. I actually, I was just able to shoot a few hoops outside in the break between calls. It's so nice outside. And then now they know that you like basketball or, or, you know, I, I got, I got a great workout in. I was, I was spinning some of my favorite records. What records now we can talk music or I had 15 minutes. I'm really loving this new season of Diablo four, which by the way, I totally am this loot season. Best thing this. I mean, absolute best thing Diablo 4 has ever done. And I'm so stoked that I have a pet now. I've heard that about Diablo 4. I haven't jumped back in yet, which I feel terrible about. My poor Storm Druid is wondering what he did wrong. But I've got a good squad going with Modern Warfare, so I've been back to the first -person shooter and getting destroyed by sweaty teenagers. Sweaty as a game, that's what I'm saying. something you can connect on, though, right? Like, I mean, if somebody asks you like, you know, how's your day going? it was great. It got off to a good start. I was I was, you know, gaming over lunch and it like you can tell a story and then you can connect and relate. And if they're gamers, too, they're going to really dive in. Yeah, no, I like that. I've never actually thought of hanging the bait, so to speak. Yeah, and that's actually an interesting thing I might try. I like that. I'll just randomly grab my lightsaber and just bring it in. I could, I wish I could like, give a shout out. I can't remember the, the, the poster, but I saw it on, on Tik TOK and, and they were saying you effectively, you have so few words that you get out during a conversation nowadays, virtually that you need to make them count. And all you're doing is we're pissing it away when you just answer, yeah, it's, you know, it's really warm out. It's like 90 out today here in Detroit, but. What is the 90 degrees mean for you? This doesn't mean you're going to be staying inside. Are you, you know, are you waiting until it's like seven o 'clock to barbecue? Like what, what, what are the things that you can connect with people on a human level off of? And then they'll do the same because they'll, you know, law of reciprocity. You just gave them insight into your life. They will respond with insight into theirs. Yeah, no, I think that's, I mean, there are, you'll always run into those people that are just like brick walls that just, that meeting is the last place they wanna be, which is like, I hope everything's okay for you. But yeah, I agree. I mean, if you, and that goes back to what we were saying earlier, if you put yourself out there a little bit, you know, like you'll be more than likely pleasantly surprised with what you get back. And I've gotta also mention, of course, that when you said, you know, pissing them away naturally shout out Trumbull Wamba pissing the night away tough thumping anyways Well, I get knocked down, but I get up again. Ugh, Danny boy. Danny boy. Is my name. Yeah. Well, I think this has been such a phenomenal conversation. I'm trying to figure out the best way to wrap it up. And I want to drill down into your comedy because I feel like that's been a trend throughout this whole thing. And if people get to know you long enough, you might send them clips. You might give them access to private YouTube links with your standup on it. But Yeah, my first question relates to comedy was why is it always a brick wall with the most uncomfortable looking stool up there? The stool, very few people use the stool. I mean, unless you're a Mark Maron up there, right? But the stool for me is just where I set my phone to record my set. Brick wall, couldn't tell you. One of my favorite venues actually is Punchline, which is very much not a brick wall. And the San Francisco backdrop is different from the Sacramento backdrop. And so I like that. But yeah, brick maybe just because it's... Unassuming, maybe it's the way it reflects the light. I don't know, but yeah, it's a great question. I feel like I'm taking it a little too literally because now I'm curious, but I'll Google it and go down a rabbit hole later. Yeah. What about like crowd work? Do you do a lot of that? You've mentioned it before with people standing in line and then do you ever have somebody in the audience recording your crowd work like a Matt Rife thing? So maybe you blow up. know, Mark, all I think about is how I can blow up. And yeah, I'm Middle Eastern, so I actually do have jokes about that wordplay. I'll let you connect it up. One of my favorite jokes is a facial hair joke about getting recruited by a Facebook organization. the International Society of Incredible Stashes, but they shorten it to the acronym. It's like, is, is, or something. But again, great social media presence. They're really recruiting me hard, and you kind of get the delayed laughter. Like, it's a nice joke. The guy's making a nice joke. I don't do a lot of crowd work, though. I tend to make shitty jokes like that one. But the reason why I don't do a ton of crowd work is... Not that I'm afraid of losing the narrative, but to me it's a little different doing comedy versus obviously being at a booth. When I'm at a booth, I'll do all crowd work all day because I know I can always resort back to a pitch or I can be like, all right man, you're good, get the hell out of here. You can't really do that and just be like, I guess as I say that, yeah, I guess you could just tell somebody to, all right, fuck off, I'm gonna talk to somebody else now. But it's maybe a little bit different, you don't wanna totally antagonize a crowd when you're performing. Yeah, I'm afraid of like, okay, what if somebody gives me something and then I can't think of a joke quick enough, right? Also, I don't know. I mean, I got time. I have a set amount of time. I'm gonna go through my material and if, you know, if I get a certain reaction, I might go a certain way, but too many variables that I care to deal with, I guess. Although, yeah, I mean, obviously some of your biggest laughs are gonna be from when you react to something that someone says in the crowd, so. I don't, you know, I guess all's that to say, I don't do like a, hey, you know, who are you here with? what do you do for work? Because then it's like, all right, now there's like a expectation to make a joke off of it. Whereas, you know, if we're just talking and then somebody like says something and then you can say something back off of that and then carry on, I always wanna just carry on, right? I don't know, I will say though, man, props to the comics that want to do that. Some of the best comics are ones obviously where you can't tell the difference, right? If they're like talking to somebody in the crowd and then they just keep going and they're riffing and it's like, wait, are they still like, are they back on the set that they were doing or are they still like just riffing off of what they're, who knows? We're just experiencing it, you know? And those are like the best comics that don't make you wonder that, right? Yeah, it's the the hecklers would terrify me Not gonna lie But I so I just saw JD Weatherspoon who's John Witherspoon's son the the Friday actor I saw JD at the Comedy Club here in Detroit Last week and he was trying to set up this marriage is hard an entire joke line on on marriage and he's doing some crowd work and you know, he's trying to find the the couple that's been married the longest in the audience. And elderly woman shouts out, I think she said like 50 or 60 years. And he's like, that's so sweet. Like, what has kind of kept you both together? And then she goes, well, he passed away. Boo. funny cuz I lean into my wife and we're having a great time by the way like the hilarious show and I leave it or like I don't know how I say I don't know how he's gonna make this funny I Don't know how he's gonna make this funny and then she elaborates because he's trying to get out of this and she elaborates that that he passed away of cancer and so Like it's just getting worse and worse and much more difficult but He did what you mentioned earlier. Like he brought it back to himself. He told the story about, you know, his father -in -law with cancer and, you know, a personal anecdote, you know, that was self -deprecating in nature. and, and it was, it was hilarious. And he was able to maneuver his way around. My spouse of 50 years died from cancer in the middle of the comedy show. so. is an acquired talent. And yeah, damn, that's tough. But I mean, I've had, you know, my mom passed away a couple years ago and like, yeah, there are times where you incorporate one of the least funny things ever, a dead parent. But it's like, yeah, like there are times when you can somehow find a way to shoehorn it in as a laugh line and it works. Again, a little disarming, right? But if you have that kind of... trust with the audience, I guess. And yeah, I tried to, by the way, also sneak in a belated happy anniversary for you and your wife, by the way. So I love hearing that y 'all are still going on your dates and still doing the damn thing. I mean, it's the only way to survive marriage for 17 years and hope for at least 17 more. Your marriage is almost legal, Mark. Although, maybe legal in some states. so I, I want to wrap up, but I, I want to give you a compliment in that the fact that you do this standup, that you keep, you know, your, I don't know, is it a side hustle or a hobby, but in no matter what, it's a passion. And I think a lot of people think when they're going so hardcore into sales or any go to market thing, they got to put those passions aside, especially when they also have a family and kids. And I just love that you prioritize that and you've been able to turn that passion into improving your skill sets professionally. Like that tie in is pretty sweet. And I think it's something that anybody listening to this, you know, continue to do your passion and just look for inspiration there for your day job. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I mean, the adage that everybody gives is like, don't, you know, you're gonna quit your day job? I'm like, no, no, I'm not. I mean, I've gotten paid doing comedy, so technically I can say, yeah, I'm a comedian. But it's like, I'm not trying to be the next Robin Williams as much as I would love that, you know? Like, I'm not, I'm just doing it as a thing. It's an outlet. Outlets are good to have, right? If you can find ways, again, to... those outlets be something that gets you out of your comfort zone a little bit because a lot of sales is kind of uncomfortable right and so if you can learn to be comfortable in that uncomfortable zone you know I'm fortunate I guess that you know my hobby puts me out there and again kind of forces me to sweat it out a little bit which again I'm Middle Eastern so I have no problem sweating. But it definitely gets you comfortable talking to people because it's like well, this isn't the scariest thing I've ever done You know, I remember, you know being in my 20s and getting up on stage and thinking Hell am I doing up here? But it goes great and then you remember that and you think yeah, this will probably go great too You know, like I don't think I need to really worry about this because Yeah, I don't know having a healthy amount of disconnect also that like cares if it doesn't go great I bombed, you know, like it sucks, but I'm fine I'm okay, my kids still love me. So yeah, I mean, having a well -rounded life is awesome. I respect people that are like, nah man, I'm sales all day and I'm all about that grind and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, cool. But for me, it's a day job and I take it seriously, but I don't let it define me. I feel like, you know. I don't know, life is too short to be like, I just do nothing but this all the time. It's like, well, that sucks. You know, like, go do you, man. you wouldn't be as good at it if you just did that because of all the skills that you're picking up doing things that aren't work. Yeah, I may have a firmer grasp of the competitive landscape, but who cares? Not who cares, but it's just, you want a well -rounded skill tree, going back to, I guess, a Diablo 4 reference. You don't want to pour all your skill points into one aspect. With that, I think we'll end this podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time. This was a hilarious conversation. And how about we end it with this? Your Elmo impression. Say goodbye to the listeners as Cloud Security Elmo. Thank you, thank you. about containerization and cooing out is just so important. Don't forget kids, secure all the workstations and cloud environments.