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Are your choices truly your own, or are they divinely orchestrated? Join Pastors Harry Behrens and Donnie Garrison in this compelling episode of The Takeaway as we explore the profound question: "Are my Choices an Illusion?" By examining powerful scriptural passages like Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, Joshua 24:15, and Romans 10:9-10, we confront the apparent paradox between divine election and our ability to choose. We dig deep into the Apostle Paul's teachings on being chosen by God and our inherent inability to save ourselves due to our sinful nature. This conversation aims to provide clarity and strengthen your faith, emphasizing the coherence and comprehensibility of God's Word.
As we continue our theological journey, we delve into the doctrine of predestination and its relationship with human choice. Through key passages like Romans 8:22-25 and Ephesians 2, we discuss how God's mercy and grace are pivotal in salvation, despite our natural inclination to fulfill the passions of our flesh. Reflecting on the transformative power of the cross in 1 Corinthians 1:18 and the humility of Jesus in John 13:3-8, we underscore the necessity of divine intervention for spiritual growth.
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Are your choices truly your own, or are they divinely orchestrated? Join Pastors Harry Behrens and Donnie Garrison in this compelling episode of The Takeaway as we explore the profound question: "Are my Choices an Illusion?" By examining powerful scriptural passages like Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, Joshua 24:15, and Romans 10:9-10, we confront the apparent paradox between divine election and our ability to choose. We dig deep into the Apostle Paul's teachings on being chosen by God and our inherent inability to save ourselves due to our sinful nature. This conversation aims to provide clarity and strengthen your faith, emphasizing the coherence and comprehensibility of God's Word.
As we continue our theological journey, we delve into the doctrine of predestination and its relationship with human choice. Through key passages like Romans 8:22-25 and Ephesians 2, we discuss how God's mercy and grace are pivotal in salvation, despite our natural inclination to fulfill the passions of our flesh. Reflecting on the transformative power of the cross in 1 Corinthians 1:18 and the humility of Jesus in John 13:3-8, we underscore the necessity of divine intervention for spiritual growth.
In this episode, Pastor Harry Behrens welcomes Pastor Donnie Garrison to explore the question Are my Choices an Illusion? Their discussion delves into Pastor Harry's previous teachings in Ephesians, chapters 1 and 2, focusing on the concept of election. In them, he highlights the Apostle Paul's assertion that we were chosen by God and emphasizes our inability to save ourselves due to our state of being dead in our sins, as depicted in chapter 2. The conversation naturally turns to the topic of our ability to choose, acknowledging the pervasive presence of choices in our world and the scriptural references to the concept of choice. We hope you enjoy today's show as Pastor Harry and Donnie attempt to clarify this topic.
Speaker 2:Hello, welcome again to this special edition of the Takeaway. I'm your host, pastor Harry Behrens, and with me today is Pastor Donnie Garrison. How are you doing today, brother? I am doing well. Thank you so much for having me on. Absolutely Before we begin, I just want to give a quick reminder to our listeners to send us your questions by using the Text Us link provided in the description of each episode, as they help us create content that is important and meaningful to you, so please keep those questions and comments coming in. So now, as we begin, what is it about this topic of election, you think stirs people up?
Speaker 3:Well, one of the arguments that arises naturally when I discuss this topic with people is the ability to choose right. We live in a world where people are making choices all the time, and even the scriptures it does depict choice, you know. For instance, in Joshua 24, 15, it says and if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your father served in the region beyond the river or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord Right. So you hear choice there.
Speaker 3:Or in Romans 10, 9 and 10, because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. I believe many people find it difficult to reconcile these differences and fully trust the Bible. For instance, if the concept of election as depicted in the passages as Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 1, or Romans 9, verse 11, is true, does that imply that our choices are merely an illusion? If so, how does the idea of election coexist with our freedom to choose?
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are really good questions that deserve thoughtful answers so that we can have confidence in the Word of God. You know, when we have doubts or when doubts linger due to unanswered questions, our faith can weaken and some may even consider leaving the faith. That's why we created this podcast to address questions like this and equip believers to do the good works that God has prepared for them. So let's start by looking at some scriptures that clearly speak of election, for instance, ephesians 1, verse 4. That clearly speak of election, for instance Ephesians, chapter 1, verse 4. Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him In love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace with which he has blessed us in the beloved. And 1. Peter 1.1,. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ to those who are elect. Colossians 3.12,. So, as those who have been chosen of God. And here's one of my favorites from Jesus himself speaking to his disciples in John 15.16, you did not choose me, but I chose you. Now, as we see in these verses, they make it abundantly clear that election is spoken of in scripture.
Speaker 2:Our issue today is how do we understand these verses against ones that say we make choices, or that you know we need to make a choice, like we see in Joshua 24, 15, choose this day whom you will serve, or John 1, 12,. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. You know, I want to say, before we move on, that there are many people on both sides of the fence and some sitting on it. You know some will defend free will until they're blue in the face, as well as people who believe in election. Then you have the ones in the middle who see both arguments and can't decide. You know how they work, so they believe both and say we can't know.
Speaker 2:The problem I have with this is that it limits God's ability to reveal the truth. Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life, in John 14, 6. In 1 Corinthians 14, 33,. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. So how can that be? If we're confused, is God not able to teach us the truth? Some will say we're not able to. You know are capable of understanding God's ways, quoting Isaiah 55, 8,. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways. My ways, saith the Lord. Now, I would agree with that in that we can't figure out God on our own ability or our own intellect. However, this doesn't limit God's ability to reveal himself to us and make himself known. In fact, that's exactly what he is doing through his word. The Bible is his instruction to us, written in such a way that we can comprehend his words.
Speaker 2:This isn't some mystical book written in a way that had to be deciphered. It is written clearly and with intelligence, as there is order and consistency to it. You know we have historical, scientific and prophetic accuracy all throughout the Bible. It has led to more archaeological discoveries than any other ancient text we know of, and it has proven time and time again to be accurate and true through prophecy as well as scientifically. There's no other book that has even come close to the accuracy of the Bible. And when people say they believe in science, I say Christians do as well, because the Bible has always been scientifically accurate.
Speaker 2:It told us the world was round. There were fountains in the depths of the oceans of the Bible, other than willing ignorance, which means to be purposely stupid. 2 Peter, 3.5. For this they willingly are ignorant of that. By the word of God, the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, you know. With that said, I believe God can and does reveal the truth to those who seek him out. He is not hiding from us, as he desires for us to know him fully. Our part is to seek him. So this leads us back to the question is that our choice or is he drawing us?
Speaker 2:Let's look at John, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13 again. The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world and the world was made through him. Yet the world did not know him. He came to his own and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born not of blood. Now, when we first look at this, it seems to imply choice. But believing, or even the word received him in verse 12, does not mean choose. You know.
Speaker 2:The answer is followed up in the very next verse. How did they come to believe? Well, verse 13 says they were born not of flesh and blood but of God. When Jesus told Nicodemus, for instance, that he must be born again, he described spiritual birth as an example of the fleshly birth. He said the wind blows and no one knows where it came from or goes. Birth was not a choice. It was a happening and the evidence that it took place is the sound of a baby crying or praise pursuing from the mouth of a man who once cursed God. That's proof that the Spirit of God came upon him and he didn't choose that.
Speaker 3:Well, what about when we look at 2 Peter, 3, 9, where it says the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Doesn't this imply that God wants all men to be saved and that they have a choice?
Speaker 2:Well, the idea here is not that God is waiting for us to make a choice. When it says he wishes, or, better translated, he desires, it doesn't indicate he gave the choice to us. It just shows his desire or his heart for us. And in no way is he not in control. You know, can God not save all? If he desires? Of course he can. The question is then, why doesn't he so? Let's look at Romans, chapter 9, verses 10 to 13. And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of him who calls. She was told, the older will serve the younger, as it is written Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. In Romans 9, 17 to 18,. For the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. So then, he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills. God's desire is to show his power and mercy, but to whom is he showing it to Romans 9, 22-24, continue on. What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory, for vessels of mercy which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom he has called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? You know, it's for the elect's sake that he pours his wrath out on vessels of dishonor or the unsaved, so that we, the elect, may know his great mercy. You know. Back to Peter, he isn't contradicting himself here when he says God desires all to be saved. From what he says in 1 Peter 1, for instance, which is that we are elect, he is reaffirming God's heart for the elect, that all the elect will be saved. So by this, god's desire and decree are intact. When people read that verse and see all, they immediately think it refers to all people. But keeping it in context that Peter is talking to the elect and has already established election, we can know that all means all the elect.
Speaker 2:So God's patience is in waiting for the fullness of time to be completed so that all whom he has chosen from before time would be saved. You know Ephesians, chapter 1, verses 7 to 10. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. You know Paul's making it clear in Ephesians 1 that God has chosen those whom he would save throughout time and that, you know, we're just waiting for the fullness of that time to be completed, so that you know all of whom God has chosen will be saved. You know that's the all we're talking about here.
Speaker 2:You know it's our suffering in this world, or I should say, you know our suffering in this world is not for our punishment, but it's for God's steadfast patience and waiting for the fullness of time to play out, you know, so that all whom he has predestined for adoption will be completed. You know we have to recognize that and if God, you know, were to bring our suffering to an end now, those whom he has chosen would not be saved, but that, all you know, all the chosen are saved, that God has beforehand chosen. We are suffering, that's us, the ones who have already been chosen, the ones that have already been awakened. You know, we're continuing to suffer. Here it is, waiting for the fullness of time to be completed, when all things will be made. New Romans 8, 22-25. Here we are. We're waiting eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies, for in this hope we were saved. Now, hope that is seen is not hope for who hopes for what he sees. But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Speaker 3:So what you are saying is that God desires all the elect to be saved and that, to show his mercy, he has not saved all. Does this indicate that not everyone has a choice to accept Jesus?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, absolutely not so. God has indeed given all of mankind the choice to choose him. You know John 3, 16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. You know, I don't agree with that at all. However, I believe scripture when it says we all choose to live for the passions of our flesh. You know, that was our choice.
Speaker 2:You know Ephesians 2,. What is it? Verses 2 and 3, and you are. Verses 1 to 3, I'm sorry. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins and in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience Listen to this among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Don't you agree that God would be just in condemning all of us? Based on this scripture, of course, so we can't argue with that.
Speaker 2:But God, by his great mercy, grace and love, saved some whom he chose before the foundations of the world, eph. Know Ephesians 2, verses 4 to 10, the very next verses. But God, being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ. By grace, you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. Now, here, listen to this, and this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works. You know, paul makes it abundantly clear that the only reason anyone is saved is because God chose them. He then keeps them and protects them, you know, protects their salvation in himself by giving them his spirit as a guarantee. They did not earn this or choose it. It was given by his grace. That no one can boast. You know, at the end of the day, god calls us to choose right. All of us are called to choose. This is to show our disobedience. Now check this out. You know it's to show that we did choose and that we chose disobedience. That's what Ephesians 2 is talking about. We made that choice.
Speaker 2:That was Paul's argument about the law in Romans 7.7. What then? Shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means. Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin, for I would not have known what it is to covet. If the law had said you shall not covet. The law revealed our sins, and God's calling for people to choose it reveals our disobedience. That's what makes election so powerful. We were all dead to sin, unable to save ourselves, and God chose, from before the foundation of the world, those whom he would show his great power and mercy, so that we would be partakers of his divine nature, would show his great power and mercy, so that we would be partakers of his divine nature.
Speaker 3:So, to bring this all together, what you are saying is that we do have a choice, but that we already made that choice and it was to fulfill the passions of our flesh. Yeah, that's exactly it, and that God gave us the choice, like he gave the law, to show us our disobedience, so that when he chose us, we would know we were disobedient.
Speaker 2:Exactly. You know, god gave us the choice to reveal our disobedience, that we would understand our previous position, that we would know we were helpless without him. That's what Paul was saying in Ephesians, chapters 1 and 2.
Speaker 3:So back to the argument of which position is right when it comes to choice, election or both you know well.
Speaker 2:I think it's clear that it's both, and that we chose the passions of our flesh and god chose us for adoption in himself. You know, apart from god, we will always choose to serve the flesh, and without him we could do nothing. You know, 15, 4-6, abide in me and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine. Neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am in the vine, you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit. For apart from me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me, he is thrown away like a branch and withers and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
Speaker 3:So, again, what you are saying is that people will always choose their own destruction and without God's perfect election we would all be lost, correct? So when believers fall in sin after they are saved, is that a result of God allowing us to make a choice, to show us that without him we will always sin, absolutely so. It's like when a father teaches his child to ride a bike. I would say it's sort of like he pushes him off, knowing he will fall, because it's part of the process of learning to ride. If his father never lets him go, he would never leave us nor forsake us.
Speaker 2:You know we could trust in that and know that when we fall, it's not because God caused it. He allowed it to teach us of his great mercy and power. You know, when he picks us up, we praise him and he gets the glory. At the end of the day, it's all about God's glory and us learning to submit to his will so that we may enter into the joy of the Lord. Romans 11, 30 to 32. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience. That means given over, consigned means given over, for God has given over all to disobedience that he may have mercy on all. You know the fall of man is part of God's master plan to show all of his attributes and for us to take part in his divine nature. He is a giving God not lacking anything, as though he needs something from us. You know we were created so that he could share the overflow of his immense, eternal, infinite glory. He is a giving God and desires to give all of himself to us. That's what he's created us for and that's what he's chosen us for. You know, when we say that election isn't fair, it leaves some out as if they didn't have a choice, and that's a lie. We all had the choice and we all made the wrong choice. If God so desires to choose some and not others, he has every right to do that, as we saw in Romans, chapter 9. As for the ones he didn't choose, you know they don't care because they are happy with their choice. You know, if it were possible for them to choose God, they're welcome to do that and be saved. For them to choose God, they're welcome to do that and be saved. You know, the issues we've seen is that we know no one will ever choose God, god without being drawn by God. John 6, 4,. No one could come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.
Speaker 2:You know, one last example I'd like to give to paint a clear picture in case there's still some uncertainty, and this is only meant to give a picture of our choices and nothing else. You know, imagine if you were at the beach on a scorching hot day and everything. Everyone is running into the ocean water to cool down. It is so hot out that the thought of getting out of the water seems ridiculous. However, you don't realize that there are sharks all around picking individuals off one by one. No one seems to notice because so many people are in the water. This represents all the people in the world living for their passions, going about their business without giving any thought to their surroundings or the individuals around them.
Speaker 2:Then, all of a sudden, you start hearing the faint sound of a whistle in the distance. You know, at first you don't give it any thought, but then you see a guy on the beach waving his arms frantically. Maybe your first thought is to ask the person next to you what's his deal, just to get a reply he's just a crazy guy. I see him all the time running up and down the beach trying to get people out of the water. He's always sweating and looking exhausted and never comes in to cool down. So we just ignore him. So then you go about swimming, disregarding the crazy guy, and this represents the gospel being proclaimed to a lost world, being devoured by the devil, while they ignore all the warnings. So while you go about swimming and enjoying your day, you start to notice more and more people disappearing under the water, sometimes people close to you and some far away. You do your best to ignore it, thinking it had never happened to me. Then, when you're least expecting it, the fins start surrounding you and you start splashing and making noises to try and scare off the sharks. But nothing you do works.
Speaker 2:When all of a sudden, you're pulled into a boat by a lifeguard, he gets you in and says I've saved you from destruction. Look around, there are sharks everywhere. From the boat's vantage point you could see the sharks, the blood in the water and people swimming with no regard to what's going on. So your first instinct is to start screaming to those in the water to warn them of the danger. And no matter how hard you try, they all seem to ignore you. Until you notice someone right along the boat, and the guy who pulled you out pulls him out also. So you turn to him and say how can I help? Then he looks you dead in the eyes and says you keep warning them and I'll keep pulling them out of the water. When I pull them in, you dry them off and tell them to do the same thing. Show them the danger I showed you and, trust me, I will keep pulling them into safety.
Speaker 2:That's what it looks like for the church to proclaim the gospel to people who don't want out of their sin. Our job is to explain to them what happened once God pulled them out of danger so they don't jump back in. He is our lifeguard and he is rescuing all those he sets his eyes on. While we keep screaming to the masses to come our way. We're going to look crazy and out of place, but our perspective is clear. The world will only know what their experience is and never comprehend our perspective unless they are pulled into the boat, which is exactly what God does. So we thank the lifeguard for saving us and telling us what to do, while encouraging people to get in the boat.
Speaker 2:Once in, we do everything we can to care for and equip them till the boat reaches land. We are never fully equipped for this task, right, but our desire to save people comes from recognizing the danger that God is the only one who can pull them out. So we pray and ask God to look to the ones around us and pull them to safety when he does be prepared to show them how he showed you. We might not be a lifeguard, but we could definitely tell people all about him while asking him to save our friends. People will always choose their comfort and we must always stay in the boat. We are in this world suffering in the heat while they are in this world suffering in the heat, while they are swimming around enjoying the day. So don't be fooled by the cool ocean water, because we are being brought to safety by the one who saved us. The reality is, you know that we don't know who God will save and who he won't, and that's his business. Our business is to proclaim. That's his business. Our business is to proclaim.
Speaker 3:Well, that reminds me of 1 Corinthians 1.18,. For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those who are being saved, it is the power of God. Now, before we go, I want to give a big thank you to all our listeners for contributing such thought-provoking questions like this one. Please keep sending them in so we can continue producing shows like this. We truly enjoy addressing your concerns and assisting you in deepening your relationship with God and, as we have heard today, our choice was to run from God and his choice was to chase after us. Without his help, we will always return to our worldly passions, like pigs returning to the mire. But, as Pastor Harry made clear, we have been chosen, cleaned up and adopted into the family of God by his great mercy that we would live a life glorifying him and joyful for us, life glorifying him and joyful for us. Like John 13, three through eight, says Jesus, knowing that the father had given all things into his hand and that he had come from God and was going back to God, he rose from supper, he laid aside his outer garments and he took a towel and he tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him Lord, do you wash my feet? And Jesus answered him what I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand. Peter said to him you shall never wash my feet, and Jesus answered him if I do not wash you, you have no share with me. Let's pray, father. We thank you for just this podcast, god, and just for this conversation and just allowing us to delve deeper into your word. We thank you so much, god, for just opening up your treasury of knowledge to us and your wisdom and showing us your great love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, christ died for the ungodly and that, although we might think we have some sort of free will and choice to accept you, your word makes it perfectly clear that we already chose sin, we already chose darkness, and you came by your choice and rescued us, and we thank you for that today, god. And we pray, lord, that you would just allow others to hear this and understand it, and let it pierce their hearts, that, god, they might be able to understand how much that means and how much you love them. We thank you and we praise you, god, and ask God that you would bless all that hear and all that might hear as we go forth and share this with people as well, in Jesus' name, amen, amen. Well, we hope today's show helped you take a step closer in your relationship with Jesus and that you have a better understanding for just how much God loves you.
Speaker 3:Next week, pastor Harry will continue his series in Ephesians as he looks at chapter 3, the mystery of the church revealed. From the beginning of creation, god's desire was to choose a people for himself to proclaim his greatness and glorify him. As we will see, this task has been given to the church not as an obligation, but one that flows from a love in our hearts towards him, because he first loved us. Like 1 John, 4, 17 through 19 says by this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because, as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, for fear has to do with torment, and whoever fears has been perfected has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's awesome. Thank you, donnie. I appreciate you, man. Now, before we go, I want to remind our listeners that we would love to hear from them and that they can send us a text message from the description page of this episode. So please, guys, let us know what you thought, what you thought about today's show, and don't forget to keep the questions coming. God bless, and we'll see you next time on the Takeaway. Thank you.