Understanding J Bruce Ismay with Author Clifford Ismay - Titanic: Legacy

"Titanic: Legacy" Podcast Host Paul Carganilla sits down with author Clifford Ismay to talk about Titanic, inspiration, and his book: "Understanding J. Bruce Ismay: The True Story of the Man They Called 'The Coward of Titanic'".

ABOUT "Understanding J. Bruce Ismay: The True Story of the Man They Called 'The Coward of Titanic'":
Following the Titanic disaster, Bruce Ismay was savaged by both the British and American press for deserting the ship while women and children were still on board. Some papers called him the 'Coward of the Titanic' or 'J. Brute Ismay', and suggested the White Star flag be changed to a 'yellow liver'. History has portrayed Bruce Ismay as a cold, heartless character who showed little compassion for others.

Clifford Ismay’s new book explores the life and motives of this misunderstood man, delving into family letters and diaries, and revisiting the public enquiries, to reveal a shy, compassionate man, who walked Titanic’s boat deck for over two hours, assisting with preparing and loading the lifeboats before finding a spare seat in the last lifeboat to be successfully lowered from the starboard side, and who possibly suffered with post-traumatic stress for the rest of his life.

Clifford's book on Amazon: https://a.co/d/gD57lee
Find Clifford on Instagram: @ismay_Titanic
Contact Clifford Ismay directly: author.ismay@gmail.com

"Titanic: Legacy" podcast is a creative collaboration between the Titanic Book Club & COVEpod - the Carganilla Online Variety Entertainment Podcast.

Titanic Book Club official website: www.titanicbookclub.com
Titanic Book Club on YouTube: www.youtube.com/@titanicbookclub
COVEpod Directory: www.covepodcast.com
COVEpod on YouTube: www.youtube.com/@covepodcast
COVEpod on Patreon: www.patreon.com/covepodcast
Contact Paul Carganilla directly: covepod@gmail.com

Theme Music: "Coming Home" by Zac Nelson

"Titanic: Legacy" podcast is a creative collaboration between the Titanic Book Club & COVEpod - the Carganilla Online Variety Entertainment Podcast.

Titanic Book Club official website: www.titanicbookclub.com
Titanic Book Club on YouTube: www.youtube.com/@titanicbookclub
COVEpod Directory: www.covepodcast.com
COVEpod on YouTube: www.youtube.com/@covepodcast
COVEpod on Patreon: www.patreon.com/covepodcast
Contact Paul Carganilla directly: covepod@gmail.com

Theme Music: "Coming Home" by Zac Nelson

Transcript

Paul Carganilla: Hello, good morning and welcome to the brand new podcast Titanic legacy, a creative collaboration between the Titanic book, club and cove. Pod, the Carganilla online variety entertainment. Podcast this is a new show in which we'll explore Titanic's lasting impact through conversations with creators, artists, authors, historians, filmmakers, and more who continue to produce creative work inspired by the Ship of Dreams. I'm your host, Paul Carginilla. Today's Guest is Clifford Ismay, author of the book, Understanding J. Bruce Ismay, the true story of the man they called the Coward of Titanic. And to everyone tuning in at home, doing chores, driving, to work, working out. However, you're listening. Thank you for listening and welcoming us into your lives for the next half hour or so, as we talk about Titanic in her long, lasting, creative inspiration and impact. This is titanic legacy the podcast now, as I mentioned the book we're talking about today, it's described as an insight into the man at the heart of the world's most infamous maritime disaster. And I'm going to read straight from the back of the book here for over a hundred years J. Bruce Ismay has been the scapegoat of the Titanic disaster. He is the villain of every film and TV drama, a fit and able-bodied man who sacrificed the lives of women and children in order to survive. Some even claim that it was his fault. The Titanic sank that he encouraged the captain to sail faster. But is this the true story? In understanding? J. Bruce Ismay, Clifford Ismay opens up the family archives to uncover the story of a quiet man savaged by over a century of tabloid press. This is a must read for any enthusiast who wishes to form their own opinion of the Titanic's most infamous survivor. Thank you so much to Clifford Ismay for joining us today. Hello, sir! How are you.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Hello, Paul! Hello, everyone! I'm great thanks. It's t's nice to be here, and I'm I'm honored to be invited to take part in the show. Thank you.

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Paul Carganilla: Oh, so honored to have you. And thanks to modern technology, I'm here in Southern California, in the States. And where are you joining us from?

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So I'm speaking to you from the west coast of Cumbria. Which is on the the fringe of the English leg district.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: We're enjoying some lovely weather here, too, probably not quite as warm as it is there. But never mind the sun shining, and that's good enough for us.

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Paul Carganilla: Oh, yes, very good.

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Paul Carganilla: always nice to have the sun out, and it's been. It's been a interesting year, weather-wise for us, especially in Southern California. It's been very rainy and cloudy even now. We're recording this and almost the end of May, and we're still waiting for that sunshine. But glad you're having a great day. Now we'll just jump into your connection here. Obviously, we're gonna talk about your book. But for anyone listening we're talking about J. Bruce is May, and your name is Clifford Ismay. So what's the relation? There.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So Jebruce is mayor is my cousin twice removed. Given the generation of the past, of course.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: so so yeah,

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Cliff Ismay - Author: but that. That's that's his father, Thomas Henry is moving forth, cut in and the book is partly partly about Thomas Henry as well.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: but yeah, a lot of people. So we're not.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I'm not kind of a direct descend. A lot of people think I am. It's not not actual direct. Descend to Bruce. Unfortunately on his particularly needs. The the family name died out, but I'm from few generations before him, from a slightly different lineage, but the the connections there.

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Paul Carganilla: So tell me about your connection with the Titanic. Was that something that you knew growing up? Or is it something you found out about later?

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Yeah, from about 8 years old. I think

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I was sitting at home with my father watching watching the TV, all black and white in those days, and a night to remember came on the TV.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So I was watching with my father, and I saw the huge ship sailing across the North Atlantic. I just looked at my father said, Wow, that that took the size of that ship. You said to me, do you know you related some to the to the man that owned that ship. Well, of course, never actually owned the Titanic per se. But I was good enough for the mind of an 8 year old at that time, and I I just kind of got involved with the whole Titanic same from then on.

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Paul Carganilla: Very good. And would you say that you then, after learning that, became super interested in it? Were you reading up on it, watching as much as you could. Documentary-wise things like that.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Yeah, I I think that didn't happen until maybe about 19,

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Cliff Ismay - Author: 1912 when I was starting to to south kind of step back from my working life a little bit, so that gave me more time to look into the the Titanic.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and I just said I collected huge files on on the Titanic and Bruce.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and I think it was about maybe

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Cliff Ismay - Author: 8 years ago.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: while I was doing talks and presentations, I decided to to write a small book about Thomas and Bruce which I would take to the presentations. I just self published stuff.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and they solve very well.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So at some point, I thought, Well.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: yeah, no, I I think I think it's time to to move on to something better.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And I just kind of collaborate collaborated all the files that I gathered over the years, and came up with this.

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Paul Carganilla: Very good. And so what inspired is that, would you?

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Paul Carganilla: Would you say? That is what it inspired the book.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: No, I wouldn't. To be honest, that that that was the the very, the very first short effort that I made. But

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I think what inspired the group was.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I would say, go I would. May

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Cliff Ismay - Author: people for the first time, perhaps, what your name Cliff is met, and some of them. Would that that were into the time that Titanic story

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Cliff Ismay - Author: would say to me, oh, are you related to the coward of the Titanic?

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Huh!

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Course? My answer will be. I don't believe there were any Cowles on board the Titanic. But yes, if you're talking about Bruce, I'm related to him. Then I found that was the the narrative that everyone was following

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Cliff Ismay - Author: a thread that no one had ever

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Cliff Ismay - Author: really challenged before.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So I thought, It's it's time for someone to to look into all these stories. About Bruce.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: They're trying to

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Cliff Ismay - Author: try to disseminate fact from fiction, and I thought, Well, who better to do it in relation of his, and I think that's what inspired me. Really.

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Paul Carganilla: I love. Before I get into it, I just wanted to give a shout out to everyone watching live on the Youtube

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Paul Carganilla: live stream on the Titanic Book Club. If you have any questions for Clifford, please go ahead and ask them. I'll be monitoring the live chat while we're having this conversation, and hello to Rms. Atlantic, Queen, 2 of the seas in Charlotte

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Paul Carganilla: for saying hello in the chat. So I was gonna mention that one thing I really love about the book is all of the letters that

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Paul Carganilla: you found that you actually included

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Paul Carganilla: to him and from him in the book. How did you get your hands on those.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Okay. So that was the that's an interesting story in itself. So a relation of mine who happens to be Bruce's great grandson.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: heard I was collecting information. He called me said, and this was news to me actually, is Cliff come up and visit me, said I, have

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Cliff Ismay - Author: archive upon archive of letters, photographs, etc, etc. And you can have access to them if you want to use them for the book, and I travel up to, of course, part of said Scotland, where where he lives

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and spent a couple of days with him, and I was taking a buck at the amount of information I had there. So yes, I uncovered all these letters, diar entries from Bruce's mother, etc, etc.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Quickly taking photographs of all of them, and after the 2 days in Scotland they came back home and started to to read up on everything, and trying to gather information from all the letters, and what I found was

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Cliff Ismay - Author: really was

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Cliff Ismay - Author: complete. Loop turning the story of Bruce.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: you know, in all kinds of respects.

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Paul Carganilla: Yeah, because, as the back of your book that I read earlier

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Paul Carganilla: does explain, like he is really villainized in a lot of the

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Paul Carganilla: presentations that you see this. Obviously the memorable scene portrayed so well by Jonathan hiding the movie, the 97 movie. And where he just slips into the lifeboat, and very similar scene in a night to remember as well. And it's really

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Paul Carganilla: a shame that, like this moment of his life, really defined his legacy. One of the things that I really love about your book is that for most people in their mind the story of Bruce. This may begins on the Titanic. But there's just so much to understand about him before the Titanic is ever even built.

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Paul Carganilla: and a lot of the history in your book explains just gives a really great backstory on who he is as a man. Was there anything that specifically surprised you to learn about him and his history?

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I didn't realize how

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Cliff Ismay - Author: how could

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Cliff Ismay - Author: try a person he was in his, in his childhood, and how that followed him through into his. His adult life!

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So, as as I was, I was put pacing things together. I began to to know. To know and understand. Jabras is may a lot better than I had done previously. I think the the biggest surprise for me was

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Cliff Ismay - Author: the

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Cliff Ismay - Author: the circumstances around his retirement, because I, like everyone else thought that he'd retired from the

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Cliff Ismay - Author: well, the presidency of the International Market Town Marine being the parent company. I thought he'd retired from that as a direct result of the Titanic disaster, and I was actually surprised to learn that his retirement was set into motion

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Cliff Ismay - Author: about 3, 4 months before Titanic actually left Southampton

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And

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Cliff Ismay - Author: it it was delayed. It was actually going to retire before Titanic sale, but it was delayed because his successor, Harald Sanderson, wasn't quite ready to to take on the role, yet so so I was amazed when to learn that.

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Paul Carganilla: And that's another thing, too, is people. I think

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Paul Carganilla: people who don't know a whole lot about Titanic assume that he was on board as like working as a member of the White Star Line staff. But he actually held a first class ticket and

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Paul Carganilla: he didn't really have a lot of. Say, there is the scene in James Cameron's movie, where he's urging Captain Smith to go faster. Wouldn't it be great if we got in? And the the night before. Make the front pages right, but there's no proof that that ever happened, and he was actually on the ship in in the capacity of being a passenger.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: That that's correct, because Bruce followed the same guidelines his father always did. Whenever possible. He always sealed on the maid and voyages of any of the White Star Line ships, the purpose being that he just wanted to kind of look around, see how things could be improved if there were any problems that the passengers that the crew might find on the ship and work on improvements for it. Regarding the speed. Well.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: you know, that's often a ball of contention with many people.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: but I actually found evidence

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Cliff Ismay - Author: that Bruce has measured an order to Captain Smith

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Cliff Ismay - Author: for Titanic

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Cliff Ismay - Author: regarding Titanic speed, that Titanic must not

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Cliff Ismay - Author: reach the 8 Ambros lighthouse before the appointed time. Now there's no evidence showing that Captain Smith actually

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Cliff Ismay - Author: received the letter. The only letter is that the letter was drafted to Captain Smith, so I think that that kind of tells you from that that Bruce really didn't want Titanic to get in any faster. I mean Titanic was a luxury lineup. It wanted people on board to enjoy the compass of the ship for the duration of the voyage. It was never about speed. There were the ship that were much faster than Titanic.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and it was just about cruising that that's what he wanted, and it was very diligent in his time, keeping even during work at the office. If if a member of staff had an appointment, say, Bruce, in the White Star Line office, the the detail. I do it actually sitting the seat outside the office, waiting to knock on the door at exactly the point the appointed hour. Otherwise Bruce wasn't very happy. So yeah, I believe that

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Cliff Ismay - Author: it really did have no plans to to get to New York ahead of time.

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Paul Carganilla: And I liked it. You mentioned he

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Paul Carganilla: would go on. The main voyage is to see what could be improved for the next one. I believe he was on

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Paul Carganilla: the Olympic making notes. And and you know, seeing what, how we could improve for the Titanic.

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Paul Carganilla: and he and Thomas Andrews really worked to provide top of the line services for their guests.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Yeah, that that's where is all about with the White Star line. It was a top class service. Not just for the first and second class passage, but also for the third the White Star line on most of the ships provided a more comforting and space for the third class passengers and any other line. It did.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I mean titanic. They had hot and cold running water in the rooms, which is something a lot of them didn't even have at all. They had electricity, which for some of them it was a novelty. The third class passengers hadn't even seen electric lights before, so it really wanted everyone to feel, to feel comfortable on board the ship, on the journey between Southampton to New York, and vice versa.

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Paul Carganilla: That memorable line from the dinner scene on Titanic where Rose's mom pokes at Jack and says, How are the accommodations in storage steerage? And he says best I've seen, ma'am.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Yeah.

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Paul Carganilla: But it's true, like Titanic. If.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Film, you.

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Paul Carganilla: Historically, factually, had the best third class experience you could get at that time.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: It did a evening in the the third class dining room. The tables had a tablecloths, which was something that you know. Simple thing like that, but it was something that most of the ship didn't provide for what the called stage don't like to use the word stage, but that's what it's called at the time for the stage passengers.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: knives, forks, you know. I mean, some of them would just get a get a fork. They didn't have a knife to cook the food. They didn't have the the quicker laid out in

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Cliff Ismay - Author: they did have the quota layered out in in a way that was

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Cliff Ismay - Author: to be expected from any West White Style lime vessel, that they were given every comforts

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Cliff Ismay - Author: that could be afforded to them for the price of the ticket that they're paying. I believe.

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Paul Carganilla: So, so interesting.

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Paul Carganilla: And you mentioned earlier how shy of a man he was. And I'm always interested in and with this podcast of course through the Titanic Book Club, and I also, you know, like to explore when I pick up a book so a little bit about me, my my history as I went to school for theater, and I had dreamed of being an actor. But so I've always been so

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Paul Carganilla: interested in what makes people tick, and whenever you're playing a character, you're not just playing the emotions in the scene.

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Paul Carganilla: You have to be informed by the history of the person. And so, when you mentioned earlier, like he was shy. He's not, you know. The character as portrayed by Jonathan Hyde in the movie is very strong and and and confident, and but

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Paul Carganilla: the real J. Bruce Ismay was actually not at all like that.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: No, that that was kind of.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and what we would call top show.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So it began. It was so shy that it began to

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Cliff Ismay - Author: to create like an atmosphere around him of harassment. And you know he used to be short with people sometimes, because

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Cliff Ismay - Author: that was an attempt to hide a shyness.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And it it really was only those that were very close to Bruce that understand that that the way it was I mean, some people found him a bit arrogant, I think, because again it was his way of

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Cliff Ismay - Author: of hiding his own shyness. He wanted to

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Cliff Ismay - Author: to dominate his job. He was the chairman of the white style. I'm president of the Imm. And he needed to to come over as in that persona don't be expected. But he found it very difficult not. Those were the ways that used to try and try and show that.

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Paul Carganilla: Almost like he's playing a character of himself.

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Paul Carganilla: Yeah, to hide how shy he was, I was reminded a lot of I don't know if you're familiar with the Nfl. And Bill Belichick, the patriots head coach for many, many years, always just very brash and short answers with the press. But anybody who knew him personally would say, he's a Teddy bear like he is not at all who he is when he's in front of a camera.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Well, well, I'll try. I don't, I don't. I've been on the other side of the pond. Of course I don't really know much about this guy. But yeah is.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: it's it's a trait that many people have.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and you know they've tried to hide it, I mean, who wants to come over as as a shy

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Cliff Ismay - Author: coward in person. Well, okay, be yourself. Be. What you want is what I always say. But I suppose in that line of business. It just doesn't work, and you have to to find a way of hiding it and come over as something someone a bit more positive and assertive.

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Paul Carganilla: And something I found super interesting

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Paul Carganilla: was the and what it kind of is. Such a

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Paul Carganilla: symbolic moment in his life was the racehorse story? Can you tell us about that.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: No, there's a few rest couple of resource stories, but if you're sparing into the one when it was when it was

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Cliff Ismay - Author: teenager.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: There was. There was his. His father was a very keen on race horses, and had stables at home very large stables

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Bruce's May one day came home from the office

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Cliff Ismay - Author: as an apprentice. He came home an hour or so before his father.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and it just felt the urge he wanted to get his father's racehorse and ride it along the sand of Crosby Beach, near Liverpool, in England.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I think he got it a little bit over, excited with himself. It's it tried to drive the racehorse too fast. Unfortunately, the racehorse

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Cliff Ismay - Author: fell and broke its leg and and had to be destroyed.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: It! It's something that Bruce never really got over, I mean. I suspect he was probably heavily berated by his father. First of all, he shouldn't have took the horse without last game, and secondly, he shouldn't have. It shouldn't have been so so racing with the horse, and you know, so

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Cliff Ismay - Author: in

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Cliff Ismay - Author: irresponsible, I think really, I think, is a word. But however he did it, and it was. It was a while after that before we would even look at the horse.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: but very, very sad.

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Paul Carganilla: The amount of guilt, and I just thought it was so symbolic like, you know, he's driving his

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Paul Carganilla: father's prized possession too fast as as.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: People.

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Paul Carganilla: Would say, and then then it gets destroyed, and he has to live with that guilt.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Yeah, yeah.

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Paul Carganilla: Just

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Paul Carganilla: the the way it

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Paul Carganilla: the rest of his life went is just such a

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Paul Carganilla: oh, man, it's just so symbolic of that.

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Paul Carganilla: so tell me about. If you could, as have you had you written a book before this one.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: No, just just a small version of this particular book. I hadn't actually written the book before this. This would me. This is my first published work.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Find it very enjoyable.

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Paul Carganilla: I was just gonna ask, how how

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Paul Carganilla: would you describe the process as a first time author? Was it more difficult than than you expected it to be when you're going into it? Or was it kind of just what what you thought it might? Had? The experience might be.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Was kind of what I thought the experience might be. In fact, I think in some ways it was a lot easier, because, being first book I was doing a lot of research on on getting the book published.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and the Internet was telling me, well, you know, if your first time off. You're more than likely gonna have to go through an agent who will contact publisher, and you'll probably get many, many letters of refusal from agents before you even get accepted. If you ever do our thing goes very lucky in a lot of ways.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So I didn't go through an agent, I thought, with that I'm going to try and do it directly. So I approach the the history press

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and they asked me to send a synopsis of the book.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and once once they're ready to say, Hey, yeah, we'll take you on. However, I must say that I did have a very strong recommendation from George B.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Who was it? Well, an established author with the history press? I need to give me a recommendation for which I'll be forever grateful. But yeah, the the took me up straight away. I was very lucky.

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Paul Carganilla: Very good. What was your favorite part about putting the book together?

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Getting to know Bruce, I think.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: obviously, the more information I collated, the better I'll get to know Bruce. The more surprises were coming up.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And I I think that was it was. It was forming the image of Bruce in my mind's eye. And getting to getting to know him that way. Obviously.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: it. It was fun going around different places, collecting the information.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I think, since the book

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I think life's been equally exciting with all the podcasts

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and interviews and everything else that goes along with it. So you know, I found a great experience, and I would recommend everyone. If they're thinking about it, give it a shot.

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Paul Carganilla: Very good. And that's one thing that I really love about this community is how eager everyone is to talk about it, and how

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Paul Carganilla: open and willing everyone is to connect

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Paul Carganilla: within this titanic

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Paul Carganilla: community online. And if you're on Instagram, you can find Cliff at Ismay underscore Titanic. That's how I got connected with him, I reached out and sent him a message. I said, Hey, Amazon's out of your book. Where can I get it? And you were so kind to sign one and send one to me, and I'm sure he would do the same for you out there.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And boy.

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Paul Carganilla: He mentioned. It is published by the history press. But where? Where do you recommend? People get it when they ask.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So, to be honest, you can get it just about anywhere now. Most people sorted from Amazon. If you're in the States, Barnes noble in the Uk.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: on the main outlet, really. Wh. Smith, Waterstones, etc. Etc. So you know that it's well stocked in many places.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and I also sell me on personal editions with the

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Cliff Ismay - Author: with the sign Certificate,

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Cliff Ismay - Author: so I said, like so like

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Cliff Ismay - Author: limited number editions which come with a science certificate and bookmark, etc, etc, what I call a collectors editions. And if anyone wants one of those they can contact me through email at

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Cliff Ismay - Author: is Mayor

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Cliff Ismay - Author: dot author@gmail.com

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Cliff Ismay - Author: and I. I can certainly arrange to to send them a copy.

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Paul Carganilla: Very, very cool. Are there plans for any future books?

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I could be tempted.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I'm considering 2 booths at the moment which can't really talk about one, both Titanic related. One is about a certain group of the crew members which

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Cliff Ismay - Author: really hasn't been gone into yet. That's as much as I can say.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And I'm thinking about writing a book onto the white starships that preceded Titanic as well.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: So there are 2 in the pipeline, and possibly another one third one

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Cliff Ismay - Author: in the thought process right now.

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Paul Carganilla: Very good.

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Paul Carganilla: One thing that jumping back into this book particular I found really interesting was, as you kind of touched on earlier a lot of people as I mentioned like, just when they think of Bruce, Esme. They think of Bruce on the Titanic, and you do such a great job at laying the the base foundation of his life before Titanic. But then, as mentioned on the back of the book, people don't realize what happened.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: It.

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Paul Carganilla: Misconceptions about his life. After

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Paul Carganilla: what surprised you the most other than you mentioned already his, his

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Paul Carganilla: retirement that he had been planning. But what would you say is the biggest myth that you like to dispel about his life after the Titanic event.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Well, I think the the big myth about Bruce is made during his time was as we as we covered before it left, because of the Titanic disaster which caused it didn't look. That's the myth that goes on. The the other myth is that once he retired, he lived the life of the of the clues. He went to live in Northern Ireland completely shut himself off from the public eye. Yeah, no, sorry, not not to Ireland.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And the reason it went there was because

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Cliff Ismay - Author: the end of the day it was retired

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Cliff Ismay - Author: from the wife, from the International Mercantile Marine. It wanted to quite a place to spend this summer day, as you love fishing, and that particular part of the west coast of Ireland was renowned for its summon and trout fishing, but

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Cliff Ismay - Author: generally during the winter month he will come back to to his home in London, and he will conduct his other businesses. With the shipping canals, insurance companies. He was also a director of the London Northern Railways, which took up quite a bit of his time, so you know, to say that I lived a life very close, no, certainly very active, until until he fell into ill health around about the beginning of the 19 thirties.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: And that's that's that's course. When is his life took a change for the worse.

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Paul Carganilla: Absolutely fascinating, and so much information. I had no idea it was such a pleasure to dig into your book. I certainly recommend anyone who hasn't yet pick up your copy of understanding J. Bruce Ismay, the true story of the man they called the Coward of Titanic.

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Paul Carganilla: Thank you so much for spending some time with us, Clifford. Is there any last takeaway that you'd want to share with the audience before we we say goodbye?

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I I I I don't think so.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: I mean, obviously, I hope that people will read me, Bill, but I hope really that people will.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Well, the read my bill probably gave from other sources. I want people to

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Cliff Ismay - Author: understand the true story of Bruce. Not just go with the the narratives from the movies. Tv documentaries, etc. Do some research, and you will. You will find that really Bruce was not the person that is portrayed to be.

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Paul Carganilla: And that research, that whole story can be found right here.

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Cliff Ismay - Author: Can indeed.

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Paul Carganilla: Thank you so much for sharing it with us for doing the work and

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Paul Carganilla: sharing Bruce's real story. Thank you for spending time with us, Cliff, and, thanks to, I want to give a big shout out to Jill Carly. She's in church right now. But

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Paul Carganilla: and the Titanic Book Club. Thank you so much. Be sure you're subscribed to the Book Club on Youtube. If you're not yet. And you enjoyed this episode, please

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Paul Carganilla: whatever podcast platform you might be listening on, please subscribe rate. Leave a positive review that'll help us so much. And if you love conversations with creators, click over to my personal podcast Cove pod and give that a listen. I speak with lots of inspirational storytellers, musicians, everyone who's making great stuff and following their heart's fire.

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Paul Carganilla: I want to say thank you. One more time to our guest, Author Clifford Ismay. Be sure to find him on Instagram at Ismay. Underscore Titanic. Thank you all for tuning in until next episode.

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Paul Carganilla: Please remember, seize the day, follow your heart's fire.

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Paul Carganilla: and make each day count.

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Paul Carganilla: Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Everybody