The Book Deal
Motivation and inspiration for emerging writers, helping them pave their own pathway to publishing success.
The Book Deal
Natasha Lester on setting goals, the business behind a bestseller and her latest novel inspired by Marie-Madeleine Fourcade
Natasha Lester on setting goals, the business behind a bestseller and her latest novel, The Mademoiselle Alliance
In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, Madeleine Cleary chats with international bestselling author Natasha Lester. They discuss Natasha's latest novel, The Mademoiselle Alliance (26 March 2025, Hachette Australia), inspired by Marie-Madeleine Fourcade, the only woman to lead a resistance movement in WWII France. But she was also a rally car driver, a pilot and a highly skilled concert pianist! The conversation delves into Natasha's writing journey from contemporary fiction to historical novels, what Penny from Costco did to help her career, her experiences in publishing, and her advice for writers on balancing creativity with the business side of writing. The episode also highlights the importance of remembering the crucial efforts of Marie-Madeleine Fourcade and her network of 3000 resistance agents to the success of the Allied invasion of France in WW2.
This week's Debut in the Spotlight is Angie Cui. Angie's debut book and picture book is My Mum is a Bird (1st April 2025, UQP).
00:00 Introduction to The Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Meet Natasha Lester: International Bestselling Author
03:26 Natasha's Latest Novel and Writing Journey
05:09 The Early Days: Natasha's First Book Deal
11:49 From Marketing to Writing: Natasha's Career Shift
15:21 The Business of Being a Writer
18:34 Writing Historical Fiction
24:14 The Journey to Becoming a New York Times Bestseller
26:04 The Impact of Penny's Pick at Costco
28:46 Introducing 'My Mum is a Bird' by Angie Cui
30:05 The Significance of the New York Times Bestsellers List
31:12 Discovering Marie-Madeleine Fourcade's Extraordinary Life
40:05 Researching Historical Fiction
41:33 Goals and Optimism for 2025
44:01 Advice for Emerging Writers
45:45 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Follow The Book Deal podcast on Instagram The Book Deal podcast (@the_book_deal_podcast) • Instagram photos and videos
You can find out more about Tina and Madeleine and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
If you want to stay in the know, sign up to Madeleine and Tina's quarterly newsletters for the latest news first.
Madeleine: Subscribe here
Tina: Subscribe here
This is the Book Deal podcast
Madeleine Cleary:where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favourite books. No matter what stage of writing you are at, we've got you covered. I'm Tina Strachan. And I'm Madeleine Cleary. And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one
Tina Strachan:deal
Madeleine Cleary:at a time. The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on. And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. Hi, it's Madeleine here with 11 novels to her name, international bestselling and Perth based author. Natasha Lester is a writer who needs no introduction. Her novels have been translated into 21 languages and are published all around the world. I finished Natasha's latest novel, the Mademoiselle Alliance the night before our chat, and I struggled to contain my fangirling before we hit record. I love Natasha's messages to writers in this one about writing your way to success by writing what you love. I. Being brave to set crazy goals, setting time aside to work on the business behind being a writer, and of course, our chat about her latest novel. Inspired by the incredible Marie-Madeleine Fourcade, the only woman to lead a resistance movement in World War II in France. Hi, Natasha Lester. Welcome to the book Deal podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to chatting today. Oh, I'm just so excited to have you on and I just wanted to reflect on, I'm sure if you remember the first time we met in person, Natasha.
Natasha Lester:Remind me, I will remember there were so many things in my brain, I keep saying to my publicist, I'm so worried that half of them are falling out somewhere.
Madeleine Cleary:Maybe I shouldn't remind you'cause it's a bit of an embarrassing story for me. So it was back when you were on publicity tour. For the Disappearance of Astrid Bricard. Okay.
Natasha Lester:I feel I signed a book for you, didn't I? You did. You did. I, I remember it all. Coming back to it now. I knew it would,
Madeleine Cleary:and this book was actually one that I had not purchased, and I ran out of the store. No, no, no, no, no. So what, for listeners, what happened?'cause this event was really popular. There were so many people and I hadn't had a chance to go and buy the book. And when they called up the signing line, the signing line was huge. And I said to my mum, go grab a copy so I can quickly get in line so I'm not gonna be, you know, waiting in line for hours. And um, mum's like, yep, no worries. I'm like, I'll stand in line, mum, you go buy it. She's like, yep. Got it. Got it. Um, and so went and had a lovely chat with you, Natasha. You were so gracious and so lovely. And then mum and I were walking outta the store and I said, oh, mum, let me know how much to transfer you. I signed
Natasha Lester:the stolen book. I remember
Madeleine Cleary:I was horrified. We just looked at each other outside and we're like, what do we do?
Natasha Lester:No, that was great. I've never signed a stolen book before. It's like a highlight. Not that you know of. Not that you know of. Yeah, not that I know of. True.
Madeleine Cleary:Um, also, I did go back and purchase the book.
Natasha Lester:Of course, being an author, you would know
Madeleine Cleary:exactly. Now we are about to, you are about to launch upon, uh, your new book, which is coming out, um, on the 26th of March in Australia. And. You've got a bunch of international releases coming as well from the Mademoiselle Alliance, which I've just read and it is brilliant.
Natasha Lester:Thank you so much. And I'm so excited to read so many books for this podcast, so thank you.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh no, it was, um, an easy one to read and I just absolutely adored it and we will talk about it. But I wanna sort of go back to the start because we're all about talking about book deals on this podcast. Yep. You have so much experience to share. And when I was doing some research, I realized your first novel, or your first historical fiction novel was published in 2016. Yes,
Tina Strachan:that's
Madeleine Cleary:right. That was only nine years ago. You've released nine historical fiction books in nine years, is that correct?
Natasha Lester:Um, yeah. It must be. I'm, I'm looking over at my shelf now. K 2, 4, 6, 8. Yes, this'll benu. Is this number nine? Yeah, it is. It's number nine. Oh my gosh. Great.
Madeleine Cleary:Which is amazing. How, how, how have you, are you okay? Like,
Natasha Lester:no, um, I do go through phases of intense, like brain fatigue and, you know, every now and again, I mean, it sounds like I've had one a year, but I haven't had one every year. Mm-hmm. Like my last book was 18 months ago, and then I've had a couple of other 18 month stints in between, so I've had. 18 months is a rest for me. Um, but yes, I suspect that that pace will slow down as the years progress. And I get older and older.
Madeleine Cleary:Well, I hope not because we love having them out in the world every year, even if there is an 18 months break in between. Um. You didn't actually start in historical fiction. Your first two novels were contemporary. Um, can you maybe talk about, um, how you got your deal for your very first book, which is what is left over after.
Natasha Lester:Yes. So I had written that as part of a university master's program and like all young hopeful master's graduates, I'd sent it out into the big wide world and like it was a long time ago, so that was published in 2010. So I was sending this out around 2007 and. Agents were still asking you back then to send it by post. Oh my gosh. Email. I know that's how old I'm, that's the worst part of this story. Right. Um, so I had posted my chapters and query letters out to the. Like three or four agents that were accepting submissions in Australia at the time. It wasn't like now where they have open periods. It was very hard to just send an unsolicited, um, submission to an agent and they'd all rejected me, um, quite, quite nicely in many cases with lovely, handwritten. Handwritten, not even tight. Wow. I know. Have you kept them? Yeah, I have, I've got a folder of them. Of course I scrapbook. Yeah. It could be worth
Madeleine Cleary:money
Natasha Lester:in Future, Natasha.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right.
Natasha Lester:Um, and then I'd sent it off to a couple of publishers as well, who were, again, at that time open, which again, wasn't many because they didn't, you know, publishers these days that have, um, open slash piles that you can send. Mm-hmm. That wasn't the case back then. Um, and pretty much everyone had rejected me, which was only about, you know, like five people in total. And so in Western Australia we have the TAG Hungerford Award for fiction, and that's an award for any, um, unpublished manuscript written by a West Australian author or someone with a Strachan connection to wa I live in wa so, and I'd known about that award forever. And, and that was always on my kind of goals list. So I submitted it to the Hungerford. Crossed my fingers. It's about, um, nine months, the judging process. So you don't hear anything for a really long time. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, it's probably changed again, this is like such a long time ago. I'm sure it must be quicker now. And um, then I got contacted and told I was on the shortlist. With other people and I was super excited, but I was also quite despondent because, um, a right friend of mine, Julian Van Lone, had recently won the Australian Vogel Award when that existed. And she'd been called by the judges before the night of the award ceremony to tell her that she'd won. So she had a speech ready. So, of course, me being me, I assume this was how all literary awards done. Worked and no one had called me to tell me to get my speech ready for the Tag Hunger Foot Awards. We haven't won, obviously. So I went along on the night thinking, oh God, I haven't won. What am I gonna do? This is like my luck. Literally my last chance I, I don't know. And my husband said later. He was driving me there and he was thinking the same thing. Oh my God, what are we gonna do? You know, she's not gonna, she's not gonna win'cause she hasn't got the phone call. It's gonna be, she's gonna be so sad. How am I gonna cope with her afterwards? Anyway, so these two despondent people were driving along to this award ceremony and then we arrive and they pull out the envelope and I'm. Looking around the room at the two other short listees trying to scope out which one it's going to be. And then they read my name out and I have literally never been more surprised in my life. So yeah, so I won that and that came with the publishing contract. Still, that's, the awards still exist. It still comes with a publishing contract and it's such a great award because it's launched the careers of so many. West Australian authors like Holden Shepherd won that award for in Boys, which is now obviously a Stan Yes. Phenomenon. Um, so it's just a really valuable part of the West Australian Biden community.
Madeleine Cleary:When you did get shortlisted and when you were ultimately won, what was that feeling like? That first time? Because is that the first validation you got for your writing or were there other things that you were submitting?
Natasha Lester:Um, I know I had submitted some poems and short stories in the couple of years, probably more than the couple of years prior, probably the five years prior to that. Um. In fact, the very, I had this like beginner's luck. The very first thing that I ever sent off to anyone was a poem to Overland Magazine, which I don't know if that just still exists. Yes, it was a very famous literary magazine and I'd written it as. Part of a university assignment. My tutor had said it was great and I should try and submit it, sent it off by post again with a stamped, self-addressed envelope. Oh my god, I'm so old. And, um, my stamped self-addressed envelope arrived back in the mail and I thought it was gonna have the standard rejection letter in it, and it had a check for a hundred dollars and an acceptance letter saying it was going to be published. And so. After that initial beginners, like obviously things did not always run that smoothly with every other submission that I had sent out after that, but I kept sending out poems and short stories, and so I'd had a few of those published, but it's not the same. I think when your ambition is to be a novelist, it's not until you know that your novel is going to be published that you feel like you can really call yourself a writer. I'm like, I still. We would go to parties and people would ask me what I did, and I would never have said, oh, I'm a writer. Mm-hmm. I would've said, I'm studying writing or something like that. But then once I knew that book was gonna be published, it was like, now I'm an author.
Madeleine Cleary:Isn't that strange though, how we have this imposter syndrome about it? It absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Anyone that writes as a writer, it's, it's, there's, you know, it's, that's quite interesting. So, um, seven. So you win this award, um. How, at what point did you decide I want to be a writer? Maybe just to yourself. You might not have told other people about it. Yeah. Oh,
Natasha Lester:no. When I was little, like my mum has all of these poems and little books that I wrote and illustrated when I was young. Um, I always loved writing. I always loved reading, and I always wrote things throughout my whole childhood. And it was if, when I was reading a book. And I had that, you know, I fell into the story and had that Strachan sense of being taken away to some other time placed, uh, person inhabiting someone else's life. I would always think, wow, imagine being able to. Make people feel like this. Like that must, that's like a superpower to me. It was. And so from then on I wanted to be a writer. I just took me, you know, a long time to get there, but
Madeleine Cleary:was there. And so you've always wanted to do it. Was there a point where you said, okay, I'm gonna start doing it, and how do you, how do you start when you get that? When you decide, okay, this is what I wanna do.
Natasha Lester:So for me, uh, when I was in year 12, uh, and everyone was selecting their university courses that they were going to do, I still wanted to be a writer then, but. WA, there wasn't really a creative writing course that existed at university back then. There was journalism and I didn't really wanna be a journalist, but that was the only thing similar. So I ended up doing a Bachelor of Commerce and I majored in marketing and public relations'cause that had this kind of writing element to it because I didn't know what else to do. I didn't know how to be a writer. Like, you know, there was no kind of apprenticeship or pathway like there was, if you wanted to be a teacher or a doctor, there was this very clear kind of pathway to follow and very clear set of objectives that you had to achieve along the way. So I just, and back then there wasn't the wealth of information. On the internet.'cause the internet didn't exist back then when I was leaving high school. That was like this far flu dream. Didn't even have mobile phones. Oh my God, I'm so old. Um, so I didn't, I know how to access the kind of information that might have helped me to be able to become a writer, but I also Strachanly believed that back then at age 17, I didn't have the emotional range that I needed to be able to be a writer. So it was actually a good thing that I went and did a completely different degree. Then I worked in marketing for 10 or 12 years and then my husband had had to follow me to Melbourne for my work. And then when he had to go back to Perth for his job, um, I obviously went with him. I didn't stay in Melbourne and. Meant quitting my marketing job that I had at L'Oreal. Um, you know, I was marketing manager for Maybelline. It was, that
Madeleine Cleary:sounds so romantic.
Natasha Lester:It was, it was really fun. And, you know, coming to Perth where there weren't companies with their head offices located here back then, so there wasn't the same kind of marketing job available. And that was when I thought, well, I've still got this idea in the back of my mind about being a writer. Maybe rather than just getting any old marketing job, I go back to university because now there are creative writing courses at university and I give it, give it a try because it's all very well to think you wanna be a writer, but. The actual practice of being a writer, like maybe it would've been different to what I thought. Maybe I wouldn't have enjoyed it. So I wanted to check that first. And also, obviously the most important thing is to find out if I was any good at it because you know, my amateurs amateur, childish kind of books for not very good. So I needed to kind of test myself. So I did go back to university and I. Um, found out that I loved it. Got my poem published, so that was like, okay, well maybe I have some ability to do it. And I kept going from there. So that was really, um, I've completely forgotten what you actually asked me. Did I answer your question? Oh my God,
Madeleine Cleary:absolutely. I'm interested actually. Um, I. Few writers now that have had marketing and public relations backgrounds. Interesting. Which is, yeah, really interesting. And I suppose it goes into that advertising marketing space where you are being a bit more creative, um, but to, in order to make money, um, yes.
Natasha Lester:And also I guess you're telling a story when you're going out to consumers with a brand, you are saying to them, imagine yourself with this. And so you have to create a story around that. So I feel like, you know, I can understand that.
Madeleine Cleary:Yes. And actually authors are always told that we have to tell the story behind the story Exactly as well. That's been something that I'm, I'm learning how to do. Um, with my debut coming out, what, how's your marketing background helped you, do you think? Has it helped you in your writing life? Um, and what maybe tips do you have for, for emerging writers?
Natasha Lester:I definitely think it has helped me because it's, it's hard. There are. You know, a number of schools have thought out there about whether writers should or shouldn't think about their readers and their audience. And you know, when you get into marketing and you drill down to things like target audiences, like it sounds icky when you put that into like a writing in a book kind of space. But. I mean, mostly I would imagine that people are writing to be read, and so therefore you are in the, at the end of the day trying to reach a customer. So having that ability to. Appreciate the art of what I'm doing, but understand that there's a business side of it as well, I think has actually been really helpful and I don't feel embarrassed or ashamed about acknowledging there is a business side to this and some writers don't want to think about that, and that's absolutely fine. Everyone is different and everybody should approach it the way that feels most comfortable to them. But I don't know whether I would have achieved the success that I have achieved if I hadn't have been able to consider at least the business aspects of being a writer as well. I mean, you are a CEO of your own business, and you are required to. Invent the idea for the product, then create the product. Market the product, manage your budgets. Um, do all your finances. Yes, do strategy for yourself. Like, where do I wanna be in five years time? That's up to you to decide. So, and all those kinds of things I had to do in marketing. It was all strategy, ideas, product creation. Finance, budgeting, et cetera. So it's been really useful. And my big piece of advice to writers would be to just, you know, spend some time thinking about whether or not. You know, giving yourself a bit of a, a day every couple of months to think about the more business aspects of writing would be useful to you. And for some people it'll be like, no, that will totally dampen my creativity and I won't be able to write. And if that's the case, then you shouldn't do that. But for other people it might be worthwhile. And, you know, giving yourself a business day that you formally kind of set aside in your calendar. Can be a really good thing'cause it forces you to acknowledge the other elements that there are to being a writer.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh no, I think that's excellent advice and I think you are an example of someone that's really built your brand really, really well. And I, I know we cringe as creatives to hear that, but, but it is true when true people say, I wanna, yeah. You know, it's a Natasha Lester book. They know, they know. You know that they're gonna get a really well written, beautifully crafted, well researched novel. Is that what you'd intended from the start? Because your two first books of, you've re, you've first released your two books, which were contemporary fiction, and then you've, um, since then, um, published historical fiction with Ette. Was that a deliberate decision or was it just what you want to write?
Natasha Lester:It's funny how little intention has gone into a lot of the things that I've done, but you're absolutely right when you say that, you know. We don't like to think of ourselves as brands, but that's how the publishers think of you. You know? Mm-hmm. When someone is submitting, they wanna know the comp titles. They wanna know what two books or three books, this is like, or will appeal to the readerships of those. Comp Titles are really important out for publishers, and that's really saying. I think my brand aligns with this author brand is really what you're saying when you're picking those comp titles on your pitch document. So, um, so it is important to think about that stuff, but sort of when I moved from contemporary fiction to historical fiction, it was a bit of an accident. I had written a third contemporary that I thought I would get published, but it was a horrible writing experience. It was a terrible book. Um, I threw it in the bin and, um. Sort of didn't know. It was a bit of a loose end, didn't know what to do. It was a bit of a crisis mument, I suppose, for me. Mm-hmm. I didn't have the difficult second book. I had the difficult third book. I'm obviously a bit delayed. What made
Madeleine Cleary:it difficult? Because I know a lot of people find this.
Natasha Lester:Yeah. For me it was, um, I think because I'd written my first book as part of a university master's program. Back then. I think it's very different now and it's much more open at the universities. There was an, a very Strachan expectation about the kind of book you would write as part of that master's program. And it needed to be serious and weighty and heavy and sad and grim, almost like it. Um, and so I wrote two books like that. Um, and then I just, I think I'd run out of that kind of energy by the third. It wasn't, they sound very consuming. Yeah, I could ride like that, but it wasn't really me. Um, I needed a bit more light, a little bit more love, a little bit more, um, ability to, um, shape the female characters and a less kind of. Vulnerably victimy kind of way. Maybe. Um, you're finding beauty, I think, in your novels.
Madeleine Cleary:You are, you're finding this beau like this during trouble times.'cause there's still a lot of darkness in your, in your books. Yes,
Natasha Lester:absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary:But there's these muments of light and beauty, which is what I love about your writing. So just Oh, thank
Natasha Lester:you. Yeah. I mean that's I guess really what I'm trying to do, but I didn't know that then I literally just pulled all my favourite books off my bookshelf and I. Reread them. And that was when I realized that so many of them were historical fiction. And I hadn't ever really thought to myself before, oh, I love historical fiction, but I clearly did love historical fiction. And then the smart part of my brain went, oh, why don't you try writing historical fiction then? And I was like, oh, that's a really good idea. So I did. Um, so it wasn't intentional and it wasn't planned. Um, and same thing when I began to write the Jewel narratives. Um. After my third historical, that was again, an accident. It wasn't intentional. And then that bit and the whole French thing wasn't intentional really, because it all seems so strategic, Natasha, when you look at
Madeleine Cleary:it
Natasha Lester:in
Madeleine Cleary:retrospect, perhaps.
Natasha Lester:I think it's all I was pursuing my interest in doing what I loved, and that's also a really key thing I think for people. You've gotta. Write about the things that you most love, because when you're doing it, the readers will feel the love. And but then that was how the brand shaped out of me just writing about the kinds of things that I really enjoyed exploring in my novel. So, um, no, it wasn't intentional. And, and so I, I think that definitely in writing there is that. Uh, push and pull and balance between some of the stuff is just very magical and spontaneous and going with your gut. And then there is this kind of business element to things as well, and you've gotta have both parts playing, um, off against each other at the same
Madeleine Cleary:time. Would you, so, um, is historical fiction, is that where you're going to stay, do you think? Because there are a lot of, there's a lot of talk about, um, writers sticking, and I know publishers enjoy when writers stay in the genre. Have you ever had this discussion?
Natasha Lester:Yes. Well, it's interesting, particularly in America, um, at the mument because obviously that's my biggest market, simply because more people in America, right? So if you are selling books there and hitting bestseller list there, you're just naturally gonna sell more copies. And, um, similarly to here, historical fiction has been declining over the last year, a couple of years or so. You know, we had this golden run, which is a bit like what romantic and crime having now. Eventually they'll reach kind of their decline, their peak and start to decline. It happens with every genre that kind of has the, has this big burst. So in the US there's been a lot of talk about pivoting, which is, I hate that word, but that's what the word that everybody is using over there. And writers are being encouraged for the, which I think is great because it's not normal to. Take a bit of a turn and to keep some of the hallmarks of their brand, but to maybe explore a different direction. So I've got, there's
Madeleine Cleary:romantic in your future, Natasha?
Natasha Lester:No, romantic is not in my future. It's in my daughter's future. She adores those books, which is great that she's reading them. Um, so no, my, I've got a book coming out. It probably next year it'll be out because I've submitted that. Um, and that while still having a historical. Element to it has some quite different pivot, I guess you would call them. Mm-hmm. Elements to it as well. And, um, that was super, super fun to write. I had a great time writing that book.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay. Pivoting. Okay. I'm gonna remember that. That's an interesting Yeah. Way of describing it. Um, I wanna talk about the US actually. It's a bit of a, a dream, I think for all emerging writers and day writers to, to be published internationally. Um. And, and particularly in the US market, there's a, like you said, it is your biggest market. Can you talk a little bit about your experience becoming New York Times bestseller and I believe it was, um, perhaps Penny from Costco that might have assisted, is that right?
Natasha Lester:Yeah, so thank God for Penny. I always say, um, so I had published two historical novels with, has shared Australia, which hadn't been. Publish internationally at all. And then my third historical was the Paris Seamstress, and that was picked up by a publisher in the US and which I thought was fantastic, but I was also quite pessimistic about it because I just didn't see why people so far away would read a book written by an author from Australia.
Madeleine Cleary:But it is, there's a lot of very much set in New York though as well.
Natasha Lester:Yes, exactly. But I don't know whether I was just setting my expectations low or something. I don't know. So I was just happy that it was being published, but didn't expect it to do anything very much. Um, and it was published in August of 2018 and. It had a recently, like a better print run just kick off than I thought. Mm-hmm. And just kept getting reprinted, just little reprints, um, because people just sort of kept buying it. And so that was all gone quite well. Like, I was pretty happy with it as it was. It didn't, and I still didn't have any more expectations for it until. This email arrived in my inbox, it must have been late October, early November. So this is a couple of months after publication and my editor in New York said to me, oh my God. And she used ex exclamation marks. And when a publisher uses exclamation marks, you know, it's exciting'cause they hate exclamation marks, right? Um, and she said the Paris seamstress is a Penny's pick for December. And I'm like, who the fuck is Penny? I. Um, and she clearly got the sense from my reply that I was underwhelmed and not taking this information on in the way I should be. So she then came back to me with a full explanation of who Penny was. She was the main buyer for Costco. Costco's like your big box, um, department store in the us Their massive, they didn't sell many books, but the ones they sell, they take a lot of stock of. And Kenny would choose one book each month, um, from all the books. Available and it would be her pick. And people had come to trust her pick. I love that. I know. It was a real, it was like the Rece Witherspoon book. Yes. I was just gonna say Fox department stores. Oh my God. It was, she's an influencer. Penny's an early, and she, she's doesn't do it anymore, which she is such a dream. I know. So she interviews the author and you have a big, um, article in the Costco magazine, which goes out to, you know, millions of households all over America. And you walk into the store and there's Penny's pick right at the front of the store. And the, the cherry on, the icing on the cake was that it was December's pick. So that's Christmas, right? Oh, everyone's walking into Costco to get a Christmas gift, and there is the power seamstress sitting right there saying I'm the perfect Christmas present. And they bought it. And they bought it. And they bought it. And they bought it. To the extent that. My publisher ran out of exclamation marks every time she gave me a sales update.'cause it was just so astounding for both of us, the kind of numbers that we were moving. Um, and then like in February, so six months after publication, target came on board as a new, um, a new retailer like that. Doesn't like that was amazing. So then it had this whole nother. Um, another boost from that, um, which meant that by the time my next book came out, which, um, was called the French Photographer here in Australia, the Paris Orphan in America. That came out in the October, uh, September of 2019, that went straight to the new New York Times bestseller list, which was a another. Pinch me mument. And again, my editor emailed me with exclamation marks saying, oh my gosh, the Paris Orman is on the New York Times bestseller list. And then she said, you can cross that off your bucket list. And I was like, I don't have it on my bucket list.'cause it seemed so extraordinarily. Unlikely to happen. So yes, I did get out a piece of paper and write bucket list on top and write it on there just so I could cross it out.
Hello, listeners. My name is Angie Cui. I'm a member of Debut Crew 2025. I'm so happy to share my first book with you. It's called My Mum is Bird, which was released on the 1st of April through UQP. This touching story celebrates the differences and the beauty of loving your family feathers and all. Its parents, and parents stay at school. The child doesn't want to ask the mum to come to school. This is all because the mum is a bird, an actual bird. Having a bird. mum seems to stand out for all the wrong reasons, especially in the human world. After feeling embarrassed to bring the bird mum along, the child slowly realized that even though the mum is a bird, she's pretty cool. After all the stories inspired by one of my friend's daily life, the book reminds us families can come in all shapes and sizes. My Mum is a Bird is out now, available in bookstores. I cannot wait for you to meet my characters and experience this heartwarming story. Thank you so much to the Book Deal podcast for allowing me to pop in this episode. And thank you all for listening and happy reading.
Madeleine Cleary:What does it mean to authors to be on the New York Times Bestsellers list?
Natasha Lester:It's exciting because it's really, it's still one thing. I don't know how much longer it will be meaningful for in the current kind of very fragmented media environment, but it still is meaningful to. People, um, it's meaningful to bookstores, it's meaningful to readers, so it kind of just gives you, um, a, a little bit more, um, authority, I guess. And also, you know, in Australia there's not that many writers that have made the list, so it's kind of, um. You know, it, it, it's an, it's such an honor. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, it really feels like an honor. Um, and
Madeleine Cleary:we don't really have an Australian equivalent unless we say an Australian bestseller
Natasha Lester:coach. No. We don't really have an Australian equivalent at all. So we need to start that because only UK's
Madeleine Cleary:the Times best seller. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Natasha Lester:All these.
Madeleine Cleary:Australian bestseller maybe. Yeah, maybe you can put that. Okay. I wanna talk about the Mademoiselle Alliance, which I'm very much hopeful will be on the New York Times bestseller list. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Yeah. Goals 2025 goals. Yeah. Um, but before we do, can you tell me about the first time you heard about Marie-Madeleine Fourcade? So
Natasha Lester:I had come across her name maybe just twice in nonfiction books that I had read about the Second World War over the years because I've read quite a few for research for my other books and she'd been mentioned in passing, um, in connection to the resistance and certainly. Never to me, to my knowledge, mentioned as the leader, the only female leader of the largest resistance network in France. Like that piece of vital information was missing from the books that I had read. And I wonder
Madeleine Cleary:why as well. Yeah,
Natasha Lester:I know. Um, so I didn't know that she was that important nor what she had done until I sat down and decided to. By her memoir on a bit of a whim really, of looking for a, a next book idea and read her memoir and thought, oh my gosh, this is who I'm writing about. I can't think about anybody else.
Madeleine Cleary:So do you wanna tell me a bit about her life then, and what was the what, what really inspired you? When were you like, oh, this is a book, I have to write this story.
Natasha Lester:There were so many muments where I thought that it's like almost impossible to pick one. So she, she grew up in Shanghai. Her father, um, worked on the French, uh, merchant Marine service. And so she grew up in the French concession of Shanghai because obviously back then, um, you know, there was a French concession there. Mm-hmm. Um, so she had this very extraordinary childhood being allowed to kind of roam. Free through Shanghai with her nanny and her brother and sister. And I think that, uh, childhood really formed the kind of woman she became. But at the same time, she was also practicing to be a concert pianist. So she was going to sit on the stage at the Egia in. Um, Paris and play the piano. Right. Of course,
Madeleine Cleary:she was, nothing surprises me now about this woman I
Natasha Lester:know. I know. So eight hours a day she's playing the piano. And then her father sadly passed away and the family had to move back to Paris. And a short time later, when she was 17 years old, she, um, fell instantly in love with this, um, French military intelligence officer. And part of the attraction maybe was that he was about to be posted to Morocco because Morocco was a French colony at the time. This is the late, this is the late 1920s. And so that would marry him, would mean moving to Morocco and having probably a similar experience to what she had in Shanghai. So she did that. Um, and you know, learnt Arabic. Like, can you imagine a woman in 1920s Morocco learning Arabic, like a blonde, blonde woman? You know? I know. Like it's crazy. Right? And she would go out with her husband, um, to meet the tribal leaders that he had to talk to, to get information from, for his role. She helped, um, women at a local women's clinic give birth to their babies. Um. Then she separated from her husband. They were very different in personality. She was quite vivacious and outgoing, and he was not like that. Uh, so she took her two children back to France with her. Um,
Madeleine Cleary:and at the time that would've been quite significant too.
Natasha Lester:Oh, yes. She like, you know, a scarlett letter kind of stuff, you know, separated. The only way she could get away with it was because her husband was in Morocco. You could say that you had come back for the children's schooling. So people accepted that as an. Excuse because the schools in France were perceived to do better than those in Morocco. Right. Um, so then she became a car rally driver. Like she drove in the very early car rallies, um, you know, and did really well on them, like, you know, came third and stuff like that.
Madeleine Cleary:There's a great scene of that in the book, which I just loved. How can you leave that right?
Natasha Lester:Even if it wasn't plot related. Loved it. Loved it. I know. You just have to get that in there. She flew. She was a pilot like in the nineties. I know. Are you kidding me? Like, what did not what did this woman not do? Right. Um, so she also worked as a journalist for, um, a radio station in, and she interviewed women who were, uh, kind of progressive, um, for the time in France. So women kind of like her. Um, and then of course war happened, um, in 1939. War was declared and she'd in the couple of years. Prior to that, had started helping a man called Navar, who was publishing a newspaper, designed to show the French people and the French government that Hitler was preparing for war because people didn't believe that Hitler wanted to take over Europe. I don't know why they didn't believe that, but they didn't. And um, they almost probably didn't want to believe it. Did they? Yeah. Well, yeah. And which is. Similar to Mm. But that's a conversation for, for another time. Um, so he was getting informants to smuggle papers out of Germany, which Murray Madeleine would collect from places like Belgium. And then they would publish the, the plans of the, um, Nazi party, um, in terms of their military strategy.
And
Natasha Lester:even that kind of information didn't convince people. So then, um, the war happens. Everything they've been publishing proves to be true and accurate, and France is taken over by the Germans and cut in half. And Navar forms this, uh, intelligence network, which becomes a resistance network that becomes the terminology for it. Um, and he has Marie-Madeleine as his, um, right hand woman. She's his chief of staff initially until he is arrested. And she, I love
Madeleine Cleary:how quickly he just like gets arrested and Marie-Madeleine's like, okay, so I guess I'm gonna take over then
Natasha Lester:and an extra, and the extraordinary thing was that she had no military training. Yes. You know, she didn't have any formal intelligence training. She was 31 years old, a mother of two kids in this network at this time, where military men decades, her senior with military experience that she didn't have. But there was something about her. That made those agents and those men who, you know, probably had some pretty chauvinist outlooks all the time, you know, at that time that was the kind of norm, right? Mm-hmm. Yet they accepted her as their leader. So that was I. Number one. Well, you know, like the, one of the extraordinary things that happened. And then, so from then on, um, she led up to 3000 agents in this resistance network that stretched across the whole of France and gathered so much important intelligence without which the war could have ended very differently.
Madeleine Cleary:That's right. Well, I mean, it, it sounds to me that without. Intelligence of alliance, you know, it, it, thousands of more people would've died. The war would've kept going. Um, the intelligence was crucial to the allied invasion of France, the, the eventual allied invasion in 1944. And this is a direct result. So why have we not heard about her before?
Natasha Lester:Well, most likely because she's a woman, sadly. Um, but also I think it was because Charles. Charles Degal, as you would say in French, but let's just call him Charles Dega because that's easier. Um, he created this, um, uh, group called The Companions Deion. Mm-hmm. And he, this was an honor he bestowed on the people he deemed most fundamental to. Uh, securing Francis Freedom throughout the war, and he gave that honor to 1,038 people. 1,032 of them were men. Um, so only six of them were women, and none of those women were Marie-Madeleine Fourcade.
Madeleine Cleary:Blews My mind when I read that and course like, what? This, this I know real
Natasha Lester:grant, her subordinates. Received the award. Oh, so three people who she was managing and giving priorities to for their intelligence gathering and managing them, telling them what to do, et cetera. They were awarded. Yeah. It was
Madeleine Cleary:de sha the goal. Just not like Marie Madeleine.
Natasha Lester:Look, I feel like he probably was quite typical for a man of his time, but given that he did only give the award to six women, there were many more than six women who were of course. To the French resistance. Um, so that in and of itself reflects perhaps his beliefs. Um, there was also quite some tension between Charles Daal and, and Navar who founded Client Network that were not friends. And so potentially it arose from that as well. Um. But I think that when you've got a woman who is excluded from that list, then history thinks, well, she wasn't important.
Mm. But
Natasha Lester:then when the histories are being written, she doesn't get mentioned because she's not one of the most crucial people who helped to, to achieve France's freedom. So I think it probably happened. From there, uh, is my supposition anyway.
Madeleine Cleary:Hmm. Well I'm so glad that you have written this book because her story needs to be spread to a wider audience and I consider myself a well-educated person. The fact that I hadn't heard of her was really disappointing to me. So, um, have you approached the research to this story differently, do you think, than your other historical fiction books?
Natasha Lester:Really, other than there was, I mean, I've had to read lots of French documents in the past for my books, but this time almost everything was in French. And yes,
Madeleine Cleary:I I was very impressed when you said that. You've, you were, you read the French, her French memoir.
Natasha Lester:Yeah.'cause the
Madeleine Cleary:English abridged, it was an abridged version. That's
Natasha Lester:right. It left a lot of crucial stuff out, so. I did it pretty much exactly the same way. I went to France, traveled in her footsteps, visited all of the locations where she had her headquarters, visited her grave, um, visited other memorials, uh, particularly to a man named Leon Phi, who was her second in command. And I read lots of documents in French, including Leon's niece had written, um, this kind of handwritten journal about her uncle. Mm-hmm. Um, which was, uh. Her handwriting was terrible and she'd scratched out lines everywhere and put arrows, adding in bits of information, and I had to decipher the handwriting and the French to be able to kind of create him as a character in the book. So it was the most difficult research, I would say, just from the language perspective, whilst I do speak French, you know. Reading archaic French handwriting is very challenging.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay, well I wanna talk about then, because I read this in your newsletter, I think at the start of this year, I thought it was really inspiring you. You said that you wanted to make optimism, um, your 2025 word and this your goal. So I wanna talk about that.'cause this year it is a bit of an uncertain year and in lots of different ways, which we alluded to earlier. Um. So what are your goals for the Mademoiselle Alliance, Natasha?
Natasha Lester:Well, my main goal is. I'd like as many people as possible to read it because then they will know Marie-Madeleine Fourcade's name. And also I've said that at its peak, the network was 3000 people. 439 of those people died. And I bet nobody could name a single one of those people who died. And yet, if it wasn't for those people, the world could be a very different place. So just for pe for them not to have died for nothing.'cause that's honestly, when you're doing this kind of research, that's kind of what it feels like. Yes. That nobody remembers them at all. And we really should remember them. So, um, you know, standing by her grave and standing by Leon's Memorial and other memorials, it, it felt a little bit futile. But then you remember. No, you know, Adolf Hitler died and the Nazis, um, did not exist anymore because of those people. And so the repercussions of what they did, we we're still able to enjoy and hopefully will continue to be able to enjoy. But at this crucial mument in time, I feel like her story is more pertinent than ever. So my. Optimistic goal is that everybody reads it and realizes that how much one person can do because she, like I said, she didn't have military training or intelligence training. She was just an ordinary person. Yes. Like you try, and yet she was able to lead 3000 people to help France free itself off the Nazis. So we can all be Marie-Madeleine Fourcade we. You know, believe that we can, and we have a little bit of bravery and a bit of courage when we need to. It's amazing how much difference one person can make. So, absolutely, that's my optimistic goal, is that people read it and walk away feeling like that, and then go and do something to, you know, help change the world.
Madeleine Cleary:I love that. That's a great, great goal to have. Okay, well I think that's gonna inspire a lot of people and I hope everybody buys this copy.'cause I think I'm hoping that this book will absolutely fly this year in Australia. In all your markets. I read that you've, your books have been translated into 21 different languages, which is just incredible.
Natasha Lester:Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
Madeleine Cleary:Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. Um. I've got two last questions. One I wanted to talk about, I wanted to continue on the goal theme. What do you think we, as sort of early emerging writers, debut writers, what should, how should we define our goals? Like, what, what should we aim for, do you think? Um, we obviously, um, are not probably aiming to be a New York Times bestseller. Um, but what, what, what's some of the things that we should do? What's a realistic goal? For us.
Natasha Lester:Why not? And New York Times vessel. Like, honestly, like if I, I didn't ever have those things on my list because I didn't ever think it was possible. But the thing I always try and say to um, new writers now is if it can happen to me, like it can happen to anybody. So you should never underestimate yourself. Um, and I think as writers so often. We don't have the confidence to call ourselves writers. We don't have the confidence to believe that we can be a bestseller. We're almost apologetic, um, to our publishers who need our books to be able to have books in bookstores. So, you know, that would be what I would say to have the, to have whatever crazy out there goals you want to, because they are all absolutely achievable and. Why not walk through the world thinking, God, I'd love to be a New York Times bestseller than thinking, oh gosh, I'm really lucky to get published and, you know, I'll just, you know, go and look at my book in a book shop. You know? I mean, and that's all great too, but why not have a bigger goal if you want to, that is obviously you don't have to, but if you do love that, help yourself out.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay. So everybody has to write on their bucket list. Yes, they do. Write your times best seller. Yep. Put it up there. Put it on the fridge. Put it on the back of the toilet door, wherever you want. Yep. There's no, no shame in having those goals. No shame at
all.
Madeleine Cleary:Okay. So we always ask, um, at the end of our podcasts, um, you, you've already shared with us so many of these, but we ask for your single top tip for emerging rider. What would you like to leave us with? Natasha Lester. I.
Natasha Lester:I feel like probably everybody might say this, but I feel it's even more important now, is to read. I really feel like, I mean, I recently judged the TAG Hungerford Award a couple of years ago and I could tell who read books and who did not read books. That's 97 manuscripts that I read in full, um, over that time and. Because the market is a bit tricky at the mument and things are gonna keep changing and they're going to keep evolving at a more rapid pace than they have been over the last kind of 10 years. You need to read more and more and more read things you don't like, read things you do, like read things you think are bad, read things you think are good. Try not to have those judgements about books. Um, you know, if they're being published by a publisher. Then the publisher thinks there's something about them that will engage readers. So what is it about those things that will engage readers and read critically? You know, like look at why does this book work for me? Or why does it not work for me? Because in understanding what you don't like to read, you learn more about your own voice as a writer and your own personal interests, and you have to bring. What's particular to you, to your own writing. And if you don't know what that is, then you can't bring it to your writing. So reading helps you to develop that sense. Mm-hmm. Um, it's a subconscious gut thing. You couldn't probably sit down and notate it out, but the reading helps with all of those things.
Madeleine Cleary:Hmm, great advice I think, and um, why not go and enjoy reading as well. We are all, if we're writing, we generally like to be readers as well, so go out and enjoy and read different things. And I hope everybody reads the Mademoiselle Alliance, which will be coming out on the 26th of March. Thank you so much, Natasha Lester for joining us on the book Deal podcast.
Natasha Lester:Thank you. We're so much fun chatting to you.
Tina Strachan:Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing. You can also find us on Instagram.