Wild Serenity: Finding Inner Peace, Your Way
How To Cultivate Your True Legacy with Wes Christensen
In this episode we explore Wes Christensen's transformative journey through sports, mental health, and spirituality, leading to his creation of a coaching program focusing on masculine fatherhood. The discussion delves into the challenges of balancing entrepreneurship with fatherhood, transitioning from a traditional job to self-employment, and the impactful role of parenthood. We also cover the significance of plant medicine and the importance of defining personal success and presence in daily life. Additionally, the episode touches on the historical roles in spiritual leadership, the impact of societal shifts like the Industrial Revolution on modern masculinity, and the necessity of embodying healthy masculinity for future generations. Together, these themes underscore the journey of embracing one's true self and shedding societal expectations to find inner peace.
Connect with Wes:
IG: https://www.instagram.com/iamweschristensen?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Website: https://www.fathercode.men/legacybook?from=fathercode.men
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I'd LOVE to hear from you and see what you're liking and not liking. Please fill out this form--it should only take a minute. Thank you!
Access Maren's FREE 3-part workshop about owning your truth, inside and out:
Watch it HERE
Join my private Facebook group to engage more intimately with me and receive exclusive content:
Join HERE
Connect with me online:
Website: www.marenswenson.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61558419637560
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/findwildserenity/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@findwildserenity
In this episode we explore Wes Christensen's transformative journey through sports, mental health, and spirituality, leading to his creation of a coaching program focusing on masculine fatherhood. The discussion delves into the challenges of balancing entrepreneurship with fatherhood, transitioning from a traditional job to self-employment, and the impactful role of parenthood. We also cover the significance of plant medicine and the importance of defining personal success and presence in daily life. Additionally, the episode touches on the historical roles in spiritual leadership, the impact of societal shifts like the Industrial Revolution on modern masculinity, and the necessity of embodying healthy masculinity for future generations. Together, these themes underscore the journey of embracing one's true self and shedding societal expectations to find inner peace.
Connect with Wes:
IG: https://www.instagram.com/iamweschristensen?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Website: https://www.fathercode.men/legacybook?from=fathercode.men
Leave me your feedback with this easy google form!
I'd LOVE to hear from you and see what you're liking and not liking. Please fill out this form--it should only take a minute. Thank you!
Access Maren's FREE 3-part workshop about owning your truth, inside and out:
Watch it HERE
Join my private Facebook group to engage more intimately with me and receive exclusive content:
Join HERE
Connect with me online:
Website: www.marenswenson.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61558419637560
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/findwildserenity/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@findwildserenity
you're listening to the wild serenity finding inner peace your way podcast. I'm your host, maryne swenson, and on this show we talk about finding peace from the inside out by shedding conformity and the need for others approval and embracing your own wild truth. Whatever that may be serene, self-love is wild, radical honesty and I invite you to come inward with me. I'd really love to stay connected with you and the best way to do that right now is to join my private facebook group. It's private because I want to make sure you're human and not a troll, but I'd love to have you in that with me. It's where I engage with you directly every week, rather than just posting something on social media and hoping you kind of see it in the algorithm. My Facebook group I do live videos. I record videos. I love getting real comments and actually like having a conversation with someone in there. So if you are liking what you're hearing, you want more and you want more of like a conversation with me. You want to ask me questions that you want on the show. That's my actual favorite thing is when people say I'd really love to hear what you think about this or your experience with this, and I will do that on this show. I would love to respond to any of that stuff. Link is in the show notes, along with all the links to how else you can get in touch with me and the links to connect with our amazing guests we have on today.
Speaker 1:Today I have a very special and beautiful conversation with my friend, wes Christensen. We talk about his background and journey in sports, in performance, in mental health studies, what eventually led him to create a masculine fatherhood coaching program and all the things in between. We talk about spirituality, how that's affected him on his journey for inner peace, how he shows up today for himself and his family, and the power of plant medicine in his journey. He has a very beautiful view of the world and the goodness that we're able to put into it and I was very, very touched by the very strong masculine presence he holds and what is very apparent on his social media. But when you meet him in person and you'll hear as you listen to him speak, he has such a gentleness about him. He's very calm, he's very present. We talk a lot about presence. Today I'm here with the fabulous Wes Christensen, who is my friend, my neighbor, a fellow entrepreneur and overall a really good person. He's a dad, he's a husband and a great guy. So Wes go ahead and introduce yourself for us, please.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if I'm all of those things, but yeah, I definitely primarily identify myself as a dad. That's like the most important role to me, for sure, one of service, but yep, uh, yep, navigating the entrepreneurial journey, um, navigating uh life outside of that and trying to balance everything as we go.
Speaker 1:It's a hard balance.
Speaker 2:It is yeah.
Speaker 1:How many kids do you have? Four kids, four kids.
Speaker 2:Yep Eight years old down to eight months old. Yeah, that's busy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay. Um, and are you an entrepreneur and balancing other work as well?
Speaker 2:No, not like employment, work Okay.
Speaker 1:Was that a pretty big leap for you.
Speaker 2:Uh, yes, yeah, I would say yes and no. It was Uh, but I think the bigger leap was like going from a W2, uh salary to like being self-employed to 99, hunting my own food, being spoon-fed to having to produce my own income was probably the bigger leap that I think prepared me to kind of transition into entrepreneurship in general, it's a scary leap.
Speaker 2:It is, yeah, especially, and I think I kind of think that we're all built for it, but I didn't grow up around entrepreneurs. Most of us didn't. We all went to school to become employees Like that's that's what it's built for.
Speaker 1:What do you want to be when you grow up? I want to work for this company. I want to do this job. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and the structure is just kind of there to that. So I think that the toughest part, at least for me, has been kind of making the mental shift of like this is when I quote-unquote start work and end work and kind of trying to in a way dissolve the separation between work and life, Because I think, if you're, I think part of our journey, uh like from a very spiritual perspective, is service, and and entrepreneurship is like the most obvious path for that.
Speaker 2:And so I think if we're on that path, the lines between work and play and family and et cetera, um, ideally, can kind of become a little bit blurred. Or we're just kind of living our life, and part of the service we provide is how we make a living for ourselves and serving the greater community. So anyway, all that just to say, yeah, the, the transition is is kind of a constant um, constant work, yeah, Constant honing yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, I like that you phrased it like that, because I've never thought of entrepreneurship as like a spiritual practice. But, um, I'm noticing that like this podcast being about finding your inner truth, bucking the system, listening to your gut, following what you think is right and not going by what other people say. That path is very aligned with that to be your own boss, to make your own decisions, to set your schedule, to figure out exactly what you want to do for work, and then go out in the community and share that with others.
Speaker 1:It feels very aligned to me, which is something I notice that I'm always striving for. It feels very aligned to me, which is something I noticed that I'm always striving for. Like, I'm mostly home with my kids and I have my hand in a lot of other business pockets, but I never want to go back into the corporate world or a nine to five, because now that I've had a taste of time and setting my own schedule and doing a career that's something that I've created and love I can't go back. So I completely understand that. Um, okay, so let's talk about what inner peace and finding your truth and finding happiness on your terms. What does that look like or mean for you, man?
Speaker 2:that's such a good question. When you ask that, what comes to mind for me is I love Carl Jung. If you're familiar, one of his quotes that I carry with me a lot is that the world will ask you what you stand for and if you don't know, it will tell you.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, that's really powerful.
Speaker 2:That's been my experience, 100% mine too, wow, so I think a lot of what finding inner peace to me is a lot about finding that, like determining who am I and what am I going to make my life about and stand for, and then the better I get at filtering what I do through that personal philosophy, the less able the world is to shake me and take my piece. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm still having chills from that comment. It's really powerful and I feel like a lot of people would resonate that, would resonate with them, that that's been their experience as well. So how many years or long would you say that you've kind of arrived to that real life? Maybe not. I always feel like inner peace is a daily work because we're, we live in this world. But how long would you say? Like I think just the awareness of that and then finally having a tangible thing to strive for is like the start of a path, Right. So how long do you feel like you've been kind of in that flow?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it definitely started for me in grad school. I finished grad school in 2019. So it's been kind of a continuous journey since then. It's about five years that I kind of shifted away from from like externalizing my self-image to making it more internal and, I think, kind of transitioning myself from seeing myself as a human doing to a human being.
Speaker 1:I love that too. Wow, that's really profound as well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that we a lot of like what steals our peace again is the fear of it's typically the fear of judgment like the fear of not's, typically the fear of judgment, like the fear of of not being accepted societally.
Speaker 2:And so we we get ourselves stuck in Constant frantic like doing and and not doing, but constantly measuring ourselves on these external outcomes. And and not doing but constantly measuring ourselves on these external um outcomes, and I think we peel back the layer to look at like who we're being moment to moment um and and redefine success that way. Again, I that's been uh, key to me and granted, like I'm not, I wouldn't, I'm certainly not like a monk here.
Speaker 3:Like I don't just live in in peace all the time.
Speaker 2:But uh like. That's the kind of the philosophy, the ideal that I strive for is like what are my own? How have I determined success on my own terms? And and then, to what extent am I living in alignment with that?
Speaker 1:I love that, even building, taking the layers of the onion back to just what do you feel is success for you, versus what other people would say or the world would say yeah, so what was your background like, like what? How would you characterize yourself as a kid growing up? What was your family culture like, your community culture? Are you the west you are now? Is this very typical of who you were back then, or do you feel like there's been a radical shift, or kind of? Think about that for a minute and because for me, as the 37 year old, I am so, so different than I was even five years ago, just in how I view myself and even how I view others for the better. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Such a good question. I think that I'm actually like. I think in a lot of ways I'm kind of returning to how I was as a child. In a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:Meaning what?
Speaker 2:Meaning returning to a lot of the ways that I showed up or, I think, kind of returning to the place where I can kind of hear and listen to my inner voice and show up authentically the way that I did or would have prior to being worried about external feedback.
Speaker 1:Um, so, a little kid maybe. Yeah, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:Like returning back to, to kind of like a lot of the traits that I've heard when I was more childlike, Like a lot of the traits that I've heard when I was more childlike. Which would be things like, things like being pretty bullheaded.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm like I can guess, but I'm going to let you say yeah, yeah, like knowing what I want, knowing what matters to me, and just like not taking anything else as an answer. That's been yeah. I'd say that that's probably one of the ways that I've changed the most, um, in the last handful of years was eventually having to, and this is where I think it it goes from kind of transitions from like a nice philosophy to actually being the hardest work that you'll ever do is when you've defined success on your own terms and like what you want your life to be about, then your conscience kind of demands that you show up in that way, despite the circumstances, despite the consequences, and so sometimes that's going to mean that you have to be okay with people being upset with you, like people disagreeing with you, be okay with people being uncomfortable with with you, even being around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and that hard.
Speaker 2:Like that's really hard, especially when you've kind of structured your life around like the very opposite, Like I'm going to mold myself into whatever's going to make people most comfortable and and really kind of jam my myself into a, a, a mold that just doesn doesn't, isn't really actually me for the sake of acceptance and and fitting into the group the way I think the group wants me to fit into it so for you was the group like your immediate family or community at large, or both.
Speaker 1:Where did you feel maybe the most pressure to conform that way?
Speaker 2:yeah, good question. I think, uh, I think all of it, not just, uh, probably not just my family, like my immediate family, sure, um, extended family, for sure, and even now, like now that I'm married, that was there as well for a long time. Like, which mask am I supposed to wear with this group of people you know? Yeah, um, so I think to to like answer your question.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a pretty supportive, um, a really supportive family. My parents were super supportive of, like, what I wanted to do and and my goals, and I think that they fostered my fire the best they could, um, and I think that we, like they, also did the best that they could within a culture that wanted to dampen my fire the best that it could and make sure that I was clean, cut, fitting in exactly the way I was quote unquote supposed to. So, uh, I think that that conditioning, like you know, that conditioning started really early, and the more that I, like went through life and jumped through the hoops that I was supposed to and checked the box that I was supposed to, the more that I confused myself with the mask, if that makes sense, the more that I lost the distinction between the white shirt that I was supposed to be wearing and my actual self. So, yeah, I think it was an interesting mixture Within the walls of our home.
Speaker 2:I think that we were pretty well supported, we were loved and there's kind of a this juxtaposition of that with uh, hey, don't, don't color outside the lines, uh, especially like within the church, uh, the church setting, and it can also be difficult to really draw the lines between that, like where our families starts and ends and where the church starts and ends. Um, in fact, I still don't know where that. You know, within my immediate family, the family I grew up in, I still don't know where that line is drawn, or if it is at all.
Speaker 1:Um, because at this point in time all of you have kind of taken your own paths and some are still heavily involved in the church you grew up in and some of you are not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and even like previous to that, really knowing you know, at what level do we prioritize our family versus prioritizing the church organization? Am I actually prioritizing my family if I only prioritize the church? You know, I saw a lot of that, yeah, and so, anyway, it seems like you probably resonate a little bit with that.
Speaker 1:Yes, this all resonates with me. It's you know I spend a lot of my time talking to women who have grown up with very I mean, everyone's story is different but, as a woman, in this kind of culture we deal with certain types of issues and it's very interesting for me to like talk to another man who has a very different role and experience in the church you and I both grew up in and sometimes, um, my viewpoint on men has been a little traumatized by some past experiences I've had, and I think I have this subconscious idea in my head that they're all patriarchs and they're all out to get me and they all think they know better and they could never understand and I paint this horrible defensive.
Speaker 1:it's really just me feeling insecure about the stuff I've experienced and and putting a bubble of defense around myself. Even in my own marriage we've had to work through a lot of stuff, um, and so it's very nice to sit down with another male and here. Obviously our experiences were different but still resonating with the idea that someone else outside of ourselves said they had the answers and they wanted us to fit certain rules and certain lines, and obviously those rules and lines were different for both of us. But, um, I resonate with all of this Same thing with my family growing up, my parents were loving and supportive and I as a kid was very stubborn and bullheaded.
Speaker 1:I hear stories and just cringe to think what I used to be like, because it's not the person I grew up into and I remember my parents really praising me for that, for growing out of my stubbornness, for growing out of my fire and being soft and in line, and I really held on to that for so long, being the righteous, good girl who did what was expected of her and never stepped out of line and was pious and modest and all the things. And now, at this point in my life. I think I don't want my daughters to have any of that.
Speaker 2:I wear whatever you want, say whatever you want stand up for yourself, get your own opinion.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to tell you what's actually truth. I'm just going to tell you my idea of it and someone else's idea of it and you go figure it out. All I want is for you to actually be happy, and that was never the message for me. I'm sure my parents probably your parents and every parent feels it deep down. They just want you to be happy, but their view of what is going to make you happy is still self-centered until they can actually let go of the control. Does that resonate with you?
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah for let go of the control. Does that resonate?
Speaker 2:with you for sure, yeah, for sure. So when, when was the turning point for you? I? I started to kind of question myself a lot towards the end of my undergrad experience, so grew up in love with sports. It's just kind of like what I gravitated to and I wasn't always like naturally good, but I was so like interested in and excited by them that I put, I worked really hard and um, develop skill there, and so that kind of became where I got a lot of um, a lot of positive feedback, so so that's where I put all of my focus in life, like all of my focus Um. So did not see myself as being distinct from being an athlete, um, and that served me like that definitely made me a high performer in sport Um, and then it uh, sport, um, and then it uh, it didn't serve me after after a while. So got to college, was playing college ball.
Speaker 1:Absolutely hated my experience, but um, why couldn't really? Admit that. Yeah, what sport? Football. Okay, where'd you go to college?
Speaker 2:Utah state.
Speaker 1:Okay, up in Logan, that's right, yeah, so what was it that you hated about?
Speaker 2:it, the culture. The culture just didn't. It didn't resonate with me. I thought that there were ways that you could motivate people without demeaning them and tearing them down. Oh okay, so we're not talking about church culture now?
Speaker 1:No, not at all. We're talking about the sports culture of that. Okay, so we're. We're not talking about, like church culture.
Speaker 2:No we're talking about the sports culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. Yeah, it was so.
Speaker 2:So I had, so my freshman year of college, I tore three of the four ligaments in my knee. I'm still like, like I'm still missing. I'm still missing two of them, um, but I just like, and again I was like, so attached to this identity. Doctor comes back.
Speaker 1:He's like hey man, you're not gonna like competitive sports is not in the cards anymore. I was like no, as a freshman as a freshman.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was like the very. It was the last practice of two days, so we're like getting ready for for our first game and like super excited. So catastrophic injury like caused a blood clot in my leg and it was. It was nasty, but, um, I just didn't want to take no for an answer. I was like there's no way I'm not going to play. So, um, this kind of led me down the road of like performance psychology and figuring out like there's you know what goes on in between our ears can make a difference.
Speaker 2:Um so long, story short. I was like full pads, full speed. Six months later, wow.
Speaker 2:Played three seasons after that and, like, that was great. I think that my attachment to that identity, like, really helped me to push through that obstacle, which was an awesome learning experience for me and did send me down the path that I'm on Um. And then by the time my last season came around, um, I had been, I'd been moved to a new position, really did not like my coaches at all and sport had changed into something that I like really dreaded. I dreaded it so bad.
Speaker 2:So like after my last season. Like I, it was two or three seasons before I even watched football again. After that I was super bitter, super just like upset with how things turned out, and it was totally like me. It was. It was very much based on, um, what was going on in my head that that kind of caused me to underperform the way that I did, um, but that kind of that turbulence and and ending a lifelong career as an athlete kind of forced me to question okay like who really am?
Speaker 2:I post sport and so a lot of athletes go through the post-sport. The post-athlete transition is pretty rough for a lot of people. Um, it definitely was for me. I was in a funk for a while, um, but but that's. That was really the catalyst that made me start to question like, okay, who's the guy behind the mask if I can't wear the football mask anymore, like what?
Speaker 1:yeah where's that leave you? Who was I?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, and that was really the trigger the trigger for me and that happened. You know, 2016 it's kind of when that started and, um, we shortly thereafter had our first baby and so you got married in the middle of all that the right at the beginning of all that, actually, yeah, so got married like two months after I had blown my knee out um, how old were you? 22 22?
Speaker 1:yeah, okay, how old was Kelsey, your wife?
Speaker 2:22, 22. We're actually born one day apart, oh oh, that's cute, okay.
Speaker 1:Um, so she kind of lived all this with you, yeah yeah, hmm, so then you had your first baby. Was that life-changing for you very?
Speaker 2:much. Yeah, yeah, I. I think that that was kind of my first uh, I think that was kind of my first real like spiritual experience actually was like hearing her for the first time and holding her, for that was definitely that was a complete game changer for me, like really opened up my heart in ways that I did not know there was even any access to. So, yeah, that was definitely like a big part of the journey and a large reason that, like, like today, I mostly work with dads. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Kind of a performance life coach for dads and that's been a huge part of my kind of the transition, the movement in the direction that I've gone with my life.
Speaker 1:So what was it about having this perfect, innocent little baby in your life who cries and pukes and poops and spits and, you know, needs to be attended to every second, and you know all the, all the amazing stuff that comes with having children? What if you, if you, could put words to it? What would it be about having that influence in your life, now that that like made you see things differently?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, previous to that experience and granted, like it's taken me a while to get to where I am now, this shift didn't totally happen, um, it didn't just like wasn't snapping the fingers when she was born, but, um, I think that and this is kind of you know, after she was born I finished my undergrad. I had about a year of my undergrad left, went on to get a master's in performance psychology after that and have since I worked with the military and Olympic and pro athletes and entrepreneurs and kind of the broad spectrum, and again now I work mostly with dads, psychologically and also spiritually, like if you look at a lot of the ancient spiritual philosophies. I think that we are like, if I could sum it up, I think that the purpose of life is to become the best version of ourselves that we can be, so that we can turn around and help our people to do the same. Um, and that is a very selfless approach. I think that what I realized pretty unconsciously when I heard the, that first cry of that first child, was that life is not about me, like the meaningful stuff in life is outside of me, and that's very much kind of become a mantra of mine today in that, like the most meaningful parts of my life, the most meaningful moments of my life, the most meaningful moments of my life are not the moments where my, like the flashlight of my attention, has been focused inside.
Speaker 2:They've been the moments where I've been totally deeply present, with that flashlight focused outside of myself, um, with the people that I love the most.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's. I mean, that's what it is. It's complete, unconditional source love, right? Yeah, it's that moment like you can't even help it. I think that's what it is for children, especially when they're little tiny babies who are just so fresh in the world and have none of the jadedness that comes with growing up, and you can feel that energy from them, the vibration they carry of just complete innocence and love. It's just so pure and it's weird the biology of how you just love this child.
Speaker 2:You cannot help it like you cannot help it, yeah there's no words for it either, like there's no, uh, there's no verbal reason that you could really give to it. It's just a felt experience that you know.
Speaker 1:But I think that must be kind of the base of it is feeling that source in them and and that resonating with that part of you that we lose a lot. So what? Like I know, religion was probably a big factor in kind of your journey. Um, I don't know if there were other. We've talked about sports and how that was a big factor and how you left that world. Where did that leave you spiritually grappling? Were you still heavily active in the church you grew up in? I know your family, like your family, was just. Let's go back for a minute and talk about all the things you had to come to terms with and what changed for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um. So I was definitely still uh, that was actually kind of believe it or not where I started to question my faith um was with sports, when, when things did not work out the way I had been promised um and in the way that I had lived, very, quote, unquote, quote, unquote, like worthily to have um seen fruit born that that just wasn't like the, the promise of if you live this way, do these things, all the blessings you want will come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even like direct blessings, like receiving blessings, priesthood blessings yeah, like, hey, this is going to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you've worked hard this is going to be the year Um and that stuff just didn't happen. It didn't work out, and so I had to ask, like, why not? Like what's going on here, um, and so that that kind of started to um, open the door for me and think of that, uh, also combined with, just like mental health in general. Uh, I grew up I don't know if this is still being pushed quite as hard, but I grew up being told that, like, true happiness is only found within the walls of the church I was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was certainly the message for my generation yeah, and I think many generations beforehand yeah and I'm not sure what our kids would say. Now I don't know, I don't know. My kids aren't very involved in the church anymore, so I don't know what they would say. But interesting, keep going yeah, so well I.
Speaker 2:At the same time, I grew up with a mom that had treatment resistant depression so like. Like a lot of my childhood memories are like she's just sleeping, like trying to slug her way through Just trying to cope.
Speaker 1:Awful yeah.
Speaker 2:And so like how does that work? That really like bothered me for a long time, because you'd hear things like that Like oh, I just need more faith.
Speaker 1:More faith.
Speaker 2:I have no idea Like well, well, we'll get home at midnight from somewhere and we're not missing scriptures and family prayer like we're doing, all the doing like it's something's got to give. Yeah, and I'm very much.
Speaker 2:Uh, I was presented with the idea of of functional contextualism in grad school, and it's basically the concept of like, for something to be true it has to work, and, granted, that's one approach to that word. But that really made me realize like, okay, well, something's broken Right and and so that kind of that kind of opened the door for me to start questioning like OK, well, I mean what? From what I've seen, it just doesn't work like this philosophy that's supposed to bring happiness.
Speaker 2:It's not for me, it hasn't for me, me, it hasn't for my family, and we are like box checkers like we check the box hard and like, it's our family identity like grant, grant we got, we got, uh like general authorities in the family your family home, evening nights every week, every church meeting like my dad's been in leadership since I can even remember he uh yeah, like I mean he's and he's uh, he does ceilings now in the temple in las vegas. I think they're very, very, very devout devout.
Speaker 1:I gotta interrupt for just a second because I'm this is reminding me of, I'm just noticing, because there are probably so many people in that church and in many other churches who are very happy and who are functioning very well.
Speaker 1:And then there's a for every person that there is, there's one who's not, who's also in the same religion, and to me that says it's not the entity or the or even the doctrine or religion or business or whatever. It's all about what's going on inside you and probably your relationships. And I remember growing up I didn't fortunately have parents who struggled with clinical depression or anything like that, but I do remember having very good friends who, where I grew up, I was the only LDS person really around in my high school and I had girlfriends who were like some were not religious and some were just Christian, and I remember looking at them and and I could feel their happiness and their joy. And and one of them, her dad passed away with cancer like our freshman year of college, and one of them, her parents had been divorced and she had a step dad and half sibling and I still thought why are they so happy? They seem so joyful and I have this, you know, quote picture perfect family, especially in our church. We were very much looked on.
Speaker 1:My dad was the bishop, the leader of our ward for a long time and all of us did all the right things. We, you know, checked all the boxes and we all went to BYU and I still felt like what is what is it that they have that? I don't. I'm. I think I'm supposed to be really happy according to all this and I'm just not. I don't feel very good. I don't feel like our family's connected it's. We're just not very happy. So I totally understand that feeling it's not working Something's. There's a disconnect here between what they're saying and what's actually my reality.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so things kind of started to break for me like towards the end of my undergraduate degree, just realizing that, yeah, for some people this might work, but it doesn't seem to work for me and I'm not going to play the game of. Well then, maybe I just need to like whisper my prayers more gently. They'll start working, or sing the sing hymns more with a more holy voice, or you know whatever it is More service.
Speaker 2:I was doing it all the way Like I was all in and things just were not working for me and not working for my family in a lot of ways. And right at the same time I was actually like I had a calling in the church, like I was teaching Sunday school and going to grad school and so like, simultaneously for Sunday school, I'm like I'm really going into the weeds to try and like I want to teach cool stuff. I want to. You know part of what I? I hate how stale church can get, like it drives me insane.
Speaker 1:You're, you're very much a philosophical guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get, I get that sense from you, I like to get into the weeds for sure, for sure, for sure, and and I think a lot of people do but, um, for whatever reason, it's easier to just show up on Sundays and just like sit there like a gray square that just hates their life and that's like the.
Speaker 2:The meetings that I walked into probably like 80, 80% of the time, that was it. Like no one wants to participate, no one really wants to be there, cause they already have heard everything that's going to be said. We're just kind of going through the motions and I didn't want to like, be that and so really like went into the weeds trying to learn as much as I could, which turned me on to a lot of church history and a lot of super strange doctrine and things that I had not been exposed to prior strange doctrine and things that I had not been exposed to prior, yeah, and so that became problematic for me when I realized that, like the church that I believed in, a lot of the stories that I had been told weren't exactly true. And then, suddenly, the values that I had kind of been taught, and oftentimes taught within those walls, put me in a place where, like, okay, what does integrity demand that I do here. Like.
Speaker 2:I can't, I'm not going to be a pretender, um so so that happened while I'm in grad school, and in grad school I'm like I'm studying mental health. I'm learning about different spiritual practices and traditions and and, and how they align with science and how people are actually getting help with actually being happy and and creating meaning in their lives, and so kind of.
Speaker 2:On the religious side, things were crumbling and on the spiritual side, things were growing like I was learning to kind of practice stillness and learning to find myself and learning to like be okay with not having all the answers which I very much grew up thinking that was a prerequisite yes, oh, oh, I know everything. Yes, because I was told I do and because I've heard everyone else say that they do and we just know. Yeah. And learning to be okay with that did a lot for me.
Speaker 1:That's a really hard stumbling block to cross over. Oh yeah, I remember thinking when I was going through my own deconstruction, feeling like but but if this isn't true, then what is true? And how can I possibly live not knowing what is true? But then I would get uncomfortable in that because what supposedly was true still didn't make sense to me, and so I felt very much floundering and that I had no stability and the black and white answers there was just too much gray for me and it took me a while to get very comfortable with gray and I had to finally just decide I don't know what is true, but I know what's not true, and I had to cling to that for a long time until I could really give myself permission to release my old patterns and thoughts and grasp onto something that was just me, that no one else was telling me was right. And it took a lot, a lot of research, a lot of exposure to many different ideas and philosophies until I could really settle on what I thought.
Speaker 1:And then I also still feel like there is magic in the not knowing, and I will never be the type of person again who decides on something and sticks to that 100%. I always give myself room enough, an open belief system. Yes, because I just look at myself previously and think my life was so damaged by limiting myself and not being open-minded to having new experiences and thoughts come in. And I have been so blessed by the people I've encountered and and even when it's stuff that I don't agree with, just the exposure to it that allows me to sit there and really internalize it and decide for myself and process and then be settled and say that's not for me but this is for me like that. That is empowering and it's very peaceful, and I have now. Now I'm to the point where I feel like I kind of thrive on the not knowing and it just doesn't bother me, and I used to be so upset by that yeah, no, I think that's such a strong place to be.
Speaker 2:I also, like on the flip side. I can't think of any greater hubris than to just assume that you have the truth and not be willing to rub it up against other information, not be able to like, throw it on the ground and see if it breaks yeah how can you even make that assumption or make the claim?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know everything if you're not willing to explore other ideas and test your ideas and it yes, very much reminds me of kind of the notion in the church where they so strongly warn against exposure to anything that is contrary to church teachings. Don't surround yourself with people who are contrary to church teachings, and I think. But if it's true and it's goodness and it's really from God, wouldn't we all want to stay with that anyways, and it just wouldn't matter what? Else we were exposed to Like.
Speaker 2:I think a question.
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Speaker 2:So so this is all happening and toward the end of my grad school experience, I started getting exposed to a lot of the research that's going on on the psychedelic forefront and a lot of the clinical trials going on with anxiety, depression, ptsd and whatnot. So I actually participated in a study on psychedelics. I had my first psychedelic experience back in 2019, in the summer of 2019.
Speaker 1:In like a clinical setting.
Speaker 2:That was not in a clinical setting. Basically, I had gotten a lot into the research, I'd written a paper on some of these findings and I had kind of come to the conclusion like, okay, this is way too interesting, like way too fascinating for me to not experience. Like, if I, if I have this, if I have the opportunity, come up, I have to have this experience. And so funny how that works. Probably like three weeks later, this falls into my lap and so, yeah, I had my first experience with psilocybin, with what people refer to as magic mushrooms, back in 2019. And that just kind of blew the lid off of everything.
Speaker 1:It was like the.
Speaker 2:It's kind of made me realize that you're familiar with the root words for enthusiasm, but it's God within. Oh, so love that word. Um, but it it did. It gave me a lot more enthusiasm for life. Um, for for a lot of reasons, and part of it was just the realization that, like, we aren't all so separate and we aren't all so separate from god yeah, in fact, I think that we're very much all to me it's all the same.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's. Somehow god is separate, and also me at the same time it's just a oneness yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, it also taught me that I actually have a direct line access. I don't need permission.
Speaker 1:You don't need a temple recommend. You don't need to check your boxes to be worthy, to hear, feel God's love.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. That was a big one for me, so that's been a huge, like a very, very integral part of my journey as well. I cannot discount the value um that that plant medicine has played in my, in my personal growth and evolution. Um don't even know how many experiences I'm in at this point, but I think that, uh, like my wife would even vouch for, like I'm much more present, been vouched for, like I'm much more present, much more patient and kind and interested in goodness in general, like in true goodness and not just um looking that way, yeah, but and honestly, like trying to seeking to um serve and and better my my life and the lives of others around me.
Speaker 2:So, um, I think that that kind of sums up sort of the kind of the the spiritual evolution journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tell me um a little bit more like speak to the psychedelic movement. Um, that, like what's happening in universities and throughout the country is a little bit of a foreign subject to me, because my experience with plant medicine psychedelics has been very much kind of in the just the spiritual community talk about that and I have not done research or I just don't know very much about like what's happening in the community at large with it. It is my understanding is that we're kind of on the verge of it becoming more accessible and we're really seeing the value of this instead of, um, just traditional talk therapy but using medicines this way.
Speaker 2:Oh, man, yeah. So so many threads to pull on there. I think a big part of the reason that traditional talk therapy isn't way more effective, considering how long it's been around at this point, is because it's talk and you can only go so far with the same tools that got you to the place you've arrived.
Speaker 2:It's words that cause problems for us psychologically, and when we're using those same words we can kind of get ourselves into traps. Um, but to kind of circle back to, like, what's going on scientifically. I do want to preface this, so it's only because of the science that I was even open to this like I was very much.
Speaker 2:I was still very like, very programmed, against this stuff yeah, you know it's gonna scramble your chromosomes and all the ridiculous stuff like everyone's got a friend that has a friend that knows an uncle that that took mushrooms and was never the same afterwards and went crazy. Seriously, everyone I know has some distant story about that. That's also just kind of been shown not to be real by the literature, assuming that you don't have a schizophrenic background. For people that have schizophrenia potentially dormant within them. They should avoid psychedelics Butant within them.
Speaker 2:they should avoid psychedelics Um, but other than that they're very safe like extremely safe, um, especially the traditional psychedelics like mushrooms that have been around, by the way, for like way longer than we have way longer before we mixed up alcohol. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yes, like there is no lethal dose, they're actually anti-addictive. So, like you don't, they're. They're not like some sort of gateway drug that's going to turn you on other things. Um, in fact, mushrooms not only do they, uh, they're. They're non-addictive in and of themselves.
Speaker 2:They're one of the strongest addiction breakers with other things, whether it's alcohol or smoking or you name it, they're very non-addictive in other ways.
Speaker 1:That makes sense to me because of the powerful spiritual nature of them, because once you can heal that part of yourself, you find no need to numb and be addicted to anything outside of yourself. Exactly. So that makes to me that's like well yeah.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right and that's like, psychologically, vice and addiction comes from a vacuum left by a lack of spirituality, and that hurts to hear. That hurt me to hear when I was a very religious person because I thought I was spiritual, because I was religious. That took some parsing. So it was the science that opened me up to this even being something worth looking at in the first place, and one of the things that the science has shown is that the people who see so mushrooms specifically, are like one of the most, if not the most, effective tool that we have to treat depression, anxiety, addiction even, and, like in the depression literature, the people who saw the greatest benefit. So you know they're following up with them months and months and months after and this is part of the problem as well is that how does the pharmaceutical industry monetize something?
Speaker 2:that only takes one or two experiences that we can't just prescribe and numb someone for the rest of their lives. How do we monetize?
Speaker 1:this? Yes, it doesn't seem very profitable for them, does it?
Speaker 2:No, it's not, and so that's part of the, you know, one of the roadblocks I think that we're facing. But the people who saw, after months and months, the greatest improvements in their mental health were the ones who took enough of a high enough dose to have what what is called a mystical experience or a spiritual experience.
Speaker 1:So it's not about the number of times, it was just about that particular experience.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, so like microdosing is really popular right now and I think that they're like I've got mixed feelings on microdosing. I think that it can be good. Explain microdosing, so microdosing is taking a sub perceptual dose of a psychedelic in this context. So what does that look like? Practically taking a sub perceptual dose of a psychedelic in this context?
Speaker 1:So what does that look like Practically?
Speaker 2:practically it's like taking a, you know, like 150 milligrams of psilocybin, whereas like a, a dose that would cause a mystical experience would typically be like two grams plus.
Speaker 2:So in a microdosing situation, how present are you consciously, like what's your capacity to function and drive, and things like that your full capacity, and that's the thing with the microdose is that you're it's sub perceptual, so if you notice anything, you're technically not microdosing. What you're looking for, the microdose and what some people have found benefit with and some haven't is, like people are, um, people microdose to it. It will be kind of like a mood booster. So people will microdose for depression or for anxiety. Um, people have also microdosed a lot for, like, uh, for creativity, to, to like, enhance their output professionally so beneficial, but not on the psychedelic level similar to maybe drinking a ceremonial cacao yeah, yeah or like
Speaker 2:a energy drink exactly, exactly beneficial in the sense that, like here's, the tricky thing is that it could be beneficial, um, but I think the question is like, at what to, to what end? So, for example, like you might, you might microdose because you want to perform better at work, or, like what you know, be more creative. Um, what the macro doses are going to do is is much deeper, in the sense of like, why do you need to perform better at work?
Speaker 1:Yes, they, because they strip the ego. What is?
Speaker 2:driving you to do all of these things that you're doing, and are you doing it in a healthy way? Yes, yeah so so long story short, the, the science is what opened me up to like being interested in this at all. But I think that the science is always catching up, especially on the spiritual front, like we've been like.
Speaker 2:the human relationship with psychedelic medicines goes back thousands and thousands of years as a spiritual sacrament as a spiritual practice, and I think that a lot of what ails us today is the fact that we're we continue to distance ourselves farther and farther from our nature, and so I I think that the the more we can do to like get not just back in line with our nature as humans, but also with nature in general, because, for whatever reason, we think that those are separate like we're a part of all of this, yeah, but we put ourselves in these gray boxes, these cement containers and under fluorescent lights all day and wonder why we feel off.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right. The only other animals that experience depression and anxiety like we do are zoo animals oh. And so you know. But we sit here and wonder you know why, like why don't I have peace?
Speaker 1:why am I struggling? What's yeah why?
Speaker 2:am I struggling?
Speaker 2:what's wrong and as I scroll instagram, for five hours exactly and most of the time, unfortunately, the answer is like, well, maybe you're probably just missing a drug, like you're probably just missing something that doesn't really actually need to be there. But in reality, um, I think that mushrooms and this psychedelics are very much so. There's kind of these two movements and it's referred to as the third wave. It's growing scientifically because we're at this point where we're seeing such incredible results that they just can't really be ignored. I think that the people that have run that movement for a long time kind of overplayed their hand a little bit, like, at this point, technology has come too far, transparency has come too far, where we can't really be duped with lies like we could previously.
Speaker 2:Yes, because information is so accessible to everyone yeah, like now the government can't run some weird like reefer madness thing on the television to make me think that I'm gonna kill my family because I smoked.
Speaker 1:Yes, and are all these studies being done at universities? Oh yeah yeah, science companies big time universities.
Speaker 2:So like you know NYU, like we're talking like, Big, reputable. Very, very reputable universities.
Speaker 1:USC. I want to say I heard something USC-y.
Speaker 2:Potentially, potentially, but there's very, very reputable research going on around psychedelics and their benefits, around psychedelics and their benefits, almost exclusively centered around mental health, because that's our issue right now and almost exclusively seeing positive results. I think one of the biggest hangups is just how do we and you can take this in a lot of different directions like how do we legalize this, how do we monetize this, and personally, I'm of the opinion that I shouldn't need permission from anyone to ingest something, that is, I shouldn't need permission from anyone to experiment with my consciousness.
Speaker 1:Certainly, certainly and certainly as an adult. Yeah, like Exactly.
Speaker 2:So so I think that those are some of the the kind of the roadblocks we're seeing like on the scientific, medical side, but the the side that's never really gone anywhere, like the more spiritual, like or indigenous, or, you know, the people that have been doing this underground for the last however many decades and otherwise. Right, but in more of like a ceremonial setting.
Speaker 2:Ceremonial setting yeah, I think that there's a lot of good there. Yeah, because I think that there's a lot of good there yeah. Because I think that there's a lot of wisdom that can be lost in the sterilization of science and medicine.
Speaker 1:Yes, because I'm sitting here thinking about all the roadblocks we have to making this accessible and kind of a dominant part of our culture and I feel like there is something that could potentially be lost in translation there, because the spiritual nature of plant medicine is so tender and powerful and to just like I could imagine some people now who are struggling thinking I'm just going to go take these mushrooms and it's going to fix all my problems and I'm going to feel so much better and I have complete faith that it would exponentially help them. But it still comes down to your yourself and your soul and I feel like mushrooms open a channel but you still have to drive it.
Speaker 1:Like and so that that I see that, like I know the big pharma, there's lots of roadblocks they're thinking of in a tangible practical setting or temporal setting and for me my worry would always be how do we put it safely into the hands of people and and have them use it as a facilitator and not as another coping mechanism?
Speaker 1:Because plant medicine to me is very ceremonial and very special and a sacred practice and it would be sad, I think, to have that get lost in the upheaval of the world we live in, the chaos and the busyness and the need, need, need, need, need. Still something outside of me versus I, like I know, plant medicine is in my future and my journey and I have very intentionally waited and waited until I really felt spiritually that I was in a very solid, stable ground and could trust my intuition and my gut and partake of it in a very intentional, special setting, much weighted. But I but in my previous life, before I'd kind of evolved to this point, I could have seen a mental health professional saying let's try some mushrooms, and I would have said okay, and I don't know that it would have had the same impact or sacredness to it, and that is something that I would be sad to miss out on totally yeah, drive-through psychedelics is like very common that's a good term for it, oh yeah, and I think that there's a lot of opportunity wasted.
Speaker 2:Um, because we do and and again, I think some of it's just like programming. Like you know, I get a, I get prescribed a drug and I go drive through a pharmacy and I pop the drug and it's fixed my problems. Umedelics are very, very different, Like, if you're doing it the right way, you're not going for a good time. Yes, and that's something I think is worth weighing. You know, I do think that you need to feel called to them and, at the same time, the ego is going to be very threatened by this experience, and so there will probably be a part of you that is, there's a part of me that's nervous every time. Okay, so I'm not sure if it's the right time.
Speaker 1:You're saying that and suddenly I'm realizing if I really can pull back, what is my resistance to this, and I've built it up in my head as I needed to be a perfect, sacred, intentional experience.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I know that there's a level of that, but now that I'm really looking at myself, I think it's also wrapped up in the stigma of you know quote drug use and me still living in a community that is very much anti any of even the mention of it. I was at a friend's like a group women's setting, playing a game one night and I was talking about a non-psychedelic plant medicine experience I had where we used hoppe and cacao and you should have seen the tension and the look on these other women's faces as.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting there explaining and I it took me by surprise for a minute because to me it was just so normal and it was just like I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean it's not even alcohol, like it's just an herb that helps move through your system, and to me it's no different than intentionally eating a strawberry versus sugar.
Speaker 1:It was just know, a medicine, a plant, a plant. And these women were their eyes, like you could see their body language and the whole energy just shift around them and they were very resistant and kept asking me questions does it change her? Could you drive home? And they were just very concerned and I could tell what it flustered in them and I I'm sure that that programming and where I live and still trying to be safe in my own skin and stand up for what I believe in, that's a still a journey for me. And so I noticed the resistance and that I noticed even in my marriage. My husband is very like do it do what you're gonna do? And he's very supportive when we talk about it. I can feel just the unknown and the resistance to it a little bit and I find it kind of funny that everyone is fine drinking gallons of alcohol all the time, and that's totally fine. I mean not within the church community.
Speaker 1:But oh, soda, yes, Just all the fake chemicals and energy drinks and all the things and I'm like I I don't, I hate all that stuff, I just want my hoppy, and that's looked on as icky and dangerous but very, very interesting. I'm glad you brought that up because that's made me sit here and really re-examine where I'm at. I think it's all about me just being comfortable and trusting myself again and and going for it, because I've had the idea for a really long time but I've again. And and going for it Cause I've had the idea for a really long time but I've waited and waited, and waited.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think it's really important with plant medicine to like. Trust is a really big thing. Um, you're simultaneously never ready and always ready for growth. Yes. Um, there's always going to be the the part of you that that demands that, and there's always going to be the part of you that's terrified of that. Yes, there's always going to be the part of you that demands that, and there's always going to be the part of you that's terrified of that.
Speaker 1:Yes, your true, higher inner self is always ready and your ego is like oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm trying to keep you safe. Exactly yeah exactly In control.
Speaker 2:So I think, like where plant medicine can come into this in here is that plant medicine has a way of zooming us out, like pulling our perspective back so that we can see a different vantage point. We can kind of see how am I showing up? That doesn't serve me, that doesn't serve my people. What stories am I clinging to that are really not very helpful, my people, what stories am I clinging to that are really not very helpful? Um, and I always say that the medicine knows what you need. Yes, so people will usually tell me something along the lines of you know, I'm really, really interested in it, but like not going to do it until I've got X, Y, Z in order, or whatever, whatever story their ego is telling that has said that like it's just keeping them stuck ultimately. And, um, knowing that like the medicine knows what you need in a way that you don't really have access to without it, um, is helpful. Knowing that you can kind of. You know, you mentioned part of your practice of surrender earlier.
Speaker 1:Oh, that would be a very big act of surrendering, for for me that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1:It's a giant act of surrender, because most journeys are not fully comfortable I imagine they can't be, because you have to strip that ego part of you and the and if you, if we've spent however many years we've been on planet earth hiding and shielding and controlling and stepping away and just our conditioning in this day and age is to totally be separate from god, that has to be uncomfortable, exactly, in a, in the best way, exactly yeah, just the same way that, like exercising is uncomfortable, yes, like you don't do it to feel good.
Speaker 2:yes, um, plant medicine has very much opened me up to love for myself that I didn't know was there, and like love for my family that I didn't know I had access to, like on deeper levels than I could have known or seen without Um, and finding that place usually requires kind of navigating through first the stories that I tell myself that I believe that keep me from seeing those spaces.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I'm remembering previously in our conversation when you said it would strip you of thinking but why do I need this? Why do I need to be the best athlete? Why do I need to perform this way? Because I think our even my religious programming growing up was pray for the things you want, and so I make my list and then I'd be like you just have to have enough faith and they'll come, and I love that.
Speaker 1:This is really stripping all that away and it's like but why? Why do you need straight A's? Why do you need this job? Why do you need the big house? Why do you need that person to approve of you? Cause none of that actually matters at all. Right, if you're so fulfilled inside, then no matter what you're experiencing's all joyous, and I love that. The more you, the more you can love yourself and be totally keyed into what's happening inside. Your capacity to give to those around you is like overflowing, and the radiance you have to me, that's like god just beaming out from you, and that's what people want to be around. That's what's so compelling to me 100.
Speaker 2:It was carl rogers that said once I love myself as I am, then I'm able to change something along those lines. And, yeah, that's what I've seen is, I think that that mushrooms especially, um, and, and a lot of the plant medicines, the psychedelic medicines, are, um, really good at helping us to drop the stories, that kind of block us from just recognizing that there is no like worthiness game to play. Yes, like that, I'm okay. Yeah, like what would I really want if I was just like okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love the idea of banishing the word worthy from our language at all. Yeah, I love the idea of banishing the word worthy from our language at all. I'm thinking there is no, there is no. You can't see me cause I'm on an audio thing, but I'm moving my hand up and down. There's no level of worthiness, it just is, it's just worth and it's all the same for everyone. I think, um, so we're coming up to the end of our time, but I'd love to know like what are the um practices and things that you feel like help keep you in that place of inner peace for yourself, and are they, um, similar to what your business is like? That, and how you help facilitate that with other, specifically men you work with, and specifically dads?
Speaker 2:So, yes, definitely, Um, huge part of what I do. So we were talking about earlier, I think that. So inner peace, I think inner peace starts with finding yourself, and it's Carl Jung that said the world will ask you who you are and if you don't know, it will tell you. The world will ask you who you are and if you don't know, it will tell you. And I think that we lose a lot of our inner peace because we're playing someone else's game, and so I think finding inner peace starts with defining what are you going to make your life about.
Speaker 2:it's defining success on your own terms you know, not based on what's going to make me look super neat to my neighbors who don't actually care at all, or what's going to put me in the best standing with my, with with my parents or my in-laws or whatever. It's really getting clear on what matters to you and and what that looks like. To show up as moment to moment, day to day, and then practicing that, because it's one thing, to get clear on that, it's something that most people will never do.
Speaker 1:It's just sit down and get clear on that, the awareness of it, just even knowing.
Speaker 2:And then it's taking it and translating it into life, and so I think there's a couple of skills there that have been really helpful. So so keeping that in front of you, like knowing, kind of your own personal philosophy.
Speaker 1:So being aware of your stories and then creating, stripping them and then creating what your story is, yes, your own personal philosophy.
Speaker 2:This is how you define success on your terms and I think, like the most influential people in the world, and not even for the sake of influence, but the people who have like really helped the largest number of people think of like impactful.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Like really the people that have that have kind of withstood the test of time, like you think of, like Jesus Christ, like even like Martin Luther King, all of these people, they were two things they were very clear on their personal philosophy and they were in integrity with their personal philosophy. Yes, regardless of the situation. Yes, kill me Fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I'm going to hold to my personal philosophy, yeah, and so I think that practice is huge, and then the skill of being able to be present enough to do that when things get uncomfortable and hard is huge, and so mindfulness practice is like probably the lowest hanging fruit, I think. For people it's like a spiritual practice and just as a practice of enhancing quality of life, yeah, like, again, the most the moments that make life meaningful. They all had one thing in common you were very present.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It wasn't because you would earn something or you had reached the top of some mountain is just because you just sunk into the moment. You were really, really present. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so mindfulness training, mindfulness practice is I always have to do a lot of like parsing here because it is a meditative practice but it is not just any meditative practice. It is specifically training your attention, and so great way to train mindfulness is to and the reason here is that an untrained mind is a distracted mind, and a distracted mind is a very self-centered mind. If you're distracted, your default mode network is activated in your brain. It's been said that that's kind of the house of the ego, which is very focused on like how do I look? What?
Speaker 2:are people thinking of me and just me, me, me. Meaningful life is not there, and so, if we can be, the more focused we are in whatever we're doing, the less that part of ourselves is activated. And so easiest way to probably do this there's good apps. I love Sam Harris's waking up app Really good he's. He's incredible. He's got a lot of guided meditations you can go through If that's the path you want to take. He's got a lot of guided meditations you can go through If that's the path you want to take.
Speaker 2:The big thing about mindfulness, though, is that it should not just be something that you go off into a room to practice. It should be a way of living. Yes, it's a lifestyle, yes, and so inserting it into daily activities where you're usually pretty mindless so showering, brushing teeth, eating eating are like the big three that people are typically not there mentally.
Speaker 2:Their body's there, but they're gone somewhere else, thinking about the stuff they got coming up in the day or the way they wish an argument would have gone, or whatever it is. Mindfulness is simply the practice of okay, this is where I'm going to direct my attention. Pick one of your five senses and then just keep it there.
Speaker 2:And what you'll notice is suddenly a light bulb, will go off and you'll realize oh, I got hypnotized by thought Like I went down some rabbit hole for who knows how long the practice is just bringing your attention back to where it was.
Speaker 2:So if you're eating food, just focus on, like the taste, what's going on there, then you'll notice. So you have a thought about a meeting coming up, okay, non-judgmentally bringing your thought back to your food, because that's where you're practicing directing your attention, and the more you can do that, the there. There's so many benefits there. But you that act of like bringing your attention back. People always get frustrated, like I can't stay focused that long, like that's. That's not the point. The point is bringing the attention back because the default is to be distracted. Yeah, every time you bring your attention back, it's like lifting a weight in the gym.
Speaker 1:You get better at holding your attention when you bring it back. Oh, I love that analogy.
Speaker 2:So that's what I practice, that's what I teach as well, that's what I coach. Part of the process is we've got to work on training your mind to be here.
Speaker 1:I love just the simplicity of that because it's so inclusive. There's not a morning checklist or a bunch more tasks we have to assign no homework right. It's all about changing just your perception of things in the moment, and I love that. I own a mindful eating cheese experience company with my sister and that's what our company is based on is mindful eating. We actually teach a mindful eating course, but that's been. She's very good at practicing that and I find that in my chaos of all the kids and it is really hard for me to sit down and like not stand over the garbage can and shove something down because I'm trying to run after the dog or the kid or get out the door and but I've tried really hard to hone that Um. So tell me a little bit more about your business and cause. Obviously, I feel like you're all of your lifestyle and your philosophy is built into that and spreading that and helping other dads.
Speaker 2:Yes. So, man, where to start? Coming out of grad school, I was like very performance focused. Um, performance psychology is really like the study of how do we enhance performance and how do we increase like well-being within that performance. Um, and so I worked with again with the military, with a lot of different athletes and entrepreneurs, um, and I was working mostly with entrepreneurs about a year ago and um realized like the most important performance in my life is fatherhood. And and I interviewed a lot of dads and found that most dads are dealing with the exact same stuff. They're all super overwhelmed. They feel like they're not present enough. Um, they've kind of lost themselves physically. Most of the time they get on a diet, fall off the wagon. Their relationship with their wives are struggling with their kids are struggling. They feel like they're just barely hanging on and things are going to come crumbling down, like it's all going to come falling apart.
Speaker 1:Is a lot of that have to do with the pressure to provide.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Are a lot of the clients you work with in. Are they usually the sole providers? Yeah, Yep. It's funny Cause I all those things you just mentioned. I'm like, I feel that all the time and I know all the other women who are, even stay at home moms, feel that just from different, different um, what's the word? Like they don't have the same thing that's causing the pressure. But the pressure is there in some way or some capacity or other and I think, gosh, we can all relate to that feeling to that feeling yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's part of it is is the community piece Um we very much like, especially as men we've been sold. The lone wolf idea that that's somehow glamorous but it's BS.
Speaker 1:It's just so ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Um. We need connection and we we need others, and so community peace is really big there. But I help men to kind of drop the overwhelm and get present with their families. I'm really big on legacy. Legacy is kind of a popular word that's thrown around, especially again with men.
Speaker 2:But, it's usually like a financial legacy, Like I'm going to leave a legacy for my family of money and that is just like the least important legacy that we leave yeah none of us are going to be remembered 100 years from now, but we will be, unconsciously, because of the template for living that we passed on to the next generation if I don't get the food thing figured out, 30 years from now my kids are going to wonder why they can't figure out food, why they can't stick you know, why they can't just eat healthy why they're struggling with their weight.
Speaker 2:Yes, if I don't get the presence thing figured out if I don't get the relationships thing figured out, if I don't get the money thing figured out, like my legacy is what I pass on to my kids in terms of a way of living.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's mental programming Exactly in terms of a way of living. Yeah, it's mental programming Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and so that's what we focus on is really getting clear, on what do we want that to look like?
Speaker 1:and then creating it. That is so needed these days. Again, I'm female, so it seems like almost all my exposure is to more females and I feel like the spiritual world is at least in my experience it's really predominantly led by females, and that's kind of how it used to be thousands of years ago. It was that females were the spiritual leaders and the ones very connected to nature and to our bodies. But I believe, you know, gender has nothing like. It doesn't matter what gender you are. We all have the capacity and capability to be as in tune and connected with all of that.
Speaker 1:But I just don't see a lot of men leaning into that space. I don't know if it's the stigma of it's kind of woo, woo and it's not macho and I'm too busy doing these other things, or if it's seen as weakness or what, whatever it is, but I love that. Like I, I so desperately needed female role, models of power and what I wanted my life to look like, and I never felt like I had that in my immediate circle, and I think men need the same thing. Like I interviewed a guy the other day who, um, he was so. He was african-american and came from a low-income childhood and he was so affected by finally having um an african-american male teacher in middle school and he had had all these amazing other teachers mostly women um, and that's what stuck out to him because it was so relatable and I love that you have created this for other men, especially in our community. In this space, I'm sure there's plenty of people who feel very called to you because of their similar backgrounds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that we're. I think and I mentioned this earlier, I think that our purpose is very much to become the, the highest level of ourselves, embody that version of ourselves, so that we can help others do the same. I really think that's our purpose, and I for men in particular. With the beginning of the industrial revolution, we lost men. We lost dads. Yeah, dads left the home and went to work, and now boys are raised by women almost exclusively. All of their teachers at school are women, and then they're at home with mom after school.
Speaker 2:Usually, when dad gets home he's a shell, so even for the hour or two that he's physically present, he's emotionally and spiritually vacant to the kids. And so, like, boys are raised by women, being expected. And then a lot of men really get to adulthood and they're like dude, what am I? Who am I supposed to be? How am I supposed to be like I'm? You know, I feel like I have no male model to model, any, any sort of template to follow. So I think that our, at least as I see it now, like in our society, a lot of the problems we're facing, or the fact that, like men, they abdicated their role, and not on purpose. But but now we've got men that grew up asking like dad, where are you, where? Were you yeah and not?
Speaker 2:knowing now how to be a dad and how to really like embody a healthy, mature masculinity, and so I think that our biggest role as men right now is to like embody that, like firm ourselves up and and step into the, the highest version of ourselves, become the man that we needed, and do that for the next generation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I have cold chills from that. I was just, you know, because so much of my work is centered on women, with the gap that patriarchy has created, but we never talk about the implications for men, and both genders have just been so slighted and so damaged by all of it. I I hate that for all of us and I'm thinking, you know, before the industrial revolution and probably much before that, but life was not like this. Families lived together and worked together on their land and in community, like it was not typical that that children were raised by one woman. It was like a village effort and they were all in harmony so that they could survive. Basically, and this isolation we've done, we're putting all these people under one person's care in a in a house and shoving them away and then telling them they have to look and be. All these things for women and for the dad that's, it is like gut wrenching, it's it's too much, it's too overwhelming and it's very isolating and lonely for the children and and for the caregivers it's hard to look around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how's everyone doing Like we're not in the best shape?
Speaker 1:No, we're not. Do you feel like there's been a like? Some people talk about how they really feel, like a revolution is coming on spiritually and that people are starting to shed the old patterns of of the things that have damaged us? Do you see that? Do you feel that?
Speaker 2:For sure, yeah, and I'm. I'm an optimist, so I you know, maybe I'm maybe I'm seeing what I want to see, but I think that a lot of the structures that ironically have kind of held us back from being spiritual are starting to crumble, so like religious structures specifically. And I do think there are negative implications to that as well, because I think that people oftentimes kind of swing completely in the opposite direction and not and completely throw spirituality out with the bathwater.
Speaker 1:Yes, religion has certainly wonderful things about it. Yeah, things I'm very grateful for.
Speaker 2:Yes, and and also like just with what technology is doing if, if ai goes as far as it probably has the potential to and none of us have jobs in 10 years, what are? We going to do. Spirituality is probably going to demand some attention, I think in the near future. However whatever draws that up might be painful, it might be scary, it might require a lot of changing it might not be AI at all.
Speaker 1:I feel it even now. I'm a writer and one of my businesses I freelance and ghostwrite for a company with people who want to write memoirs and the company that I freelance for. They've created a new technology that all I have to do now is interview the person. I don't take any notes and I upload my auto-recording and the tech generates the person. I don't take any notes and I upload my auto-recording and the tech generates the book and it's very well written and I think hmm, I don't know how needed, I am here anymore and I'm grateful for the easy paycheck, but you're losing the humanity when you do that.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll get hit by an EMP and our spiritual revolution will be thrust upon us one way or the other. When you do that, maybe we'll get hit by an EMP and we won't have it. We are spiritual. Revolution will be thrust upon us one way or the other.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think that, regardless of what happens, I think that there is kind of a. I think that there is kind of a silent and even not so silent like collective call happening right now, Just if you just take a look around and see what's happening, like with with plant medicines, with religion, with even politics and and like the homeschooling wave even yes, that has been I think that I think that people are starting to recognize that, like, we're not very well collectively and and I think that spirituality is kind of what needs to yeah, fill its place back in, yeah, and so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1:I'm optimistic well, I love that you. You are very spiritual. You're very like I I know this from being your friend and just being around you but you have a very like, introspective, philosophical, spiritual soul. But you are able to touch all these people who are not maybe not quite in the woo as you, who are more living in kind of the modern present world, because you very much resonate and help them apply spiritual principles into everyday practice with their families, with their careers, with their bodies, um and I, and I think that's very unique about what you do. So how can people work with you or get in touch with you?
Speaker 2:Best way to get in touch with me is on Instagram. That's where I'm most active.
Speaker 1:What's your handle?
Speaker 2:I am Wes Christensen.
Speaker 1:Okay, and this will all be in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Yep at. I am Wes Christensen on Instagram. You can shoot me a DM there. I'm pretty responsive.
Speaker 1:Do you and you offer coaching programs, one-on-one groups.
Speaker 2:Yep Both, both, both.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think people need both. The individual work is really helpful, but again, we need community. Yeah, we need to, especially the like men that I work with. Like we need to. We men that I work with like we need to. We have an instinctual need to become the man that we needed, but we also are very much wired to do that with other men that are on the same path.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We need our, we need community. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, thank you very much. This has been a very touching and inspiring interview. Appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, appreciate your time. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and the show at all, please, please, please, help a girl out and leave a review. Wherever it is that you listen to podcasts, it's free to do. It should only take a few minutes of your time, but it would mean the world to me. Thank you so much for your support and always, always, I love to hear from listeners. I love it. Please, if you have questions, if you have feedback, if there's any topics you want me to address, any juicy details you want me to spill about my life that I'm not covering yet, please email me, dm me on Instagram, on Facebook, text me, find me, let me know. I will love to hear feedback and I will actually engage with you, because that is what I'm all about.