Angela Murray on Observing Dog Body Language and Supporting Self-Regulation

Angela Murray (dog trainer and behavior therapist, Summit Dog Training) is about to blow your mind. She shares her wealth of knowledge in this conversation with me about how important it is to understand dog body language, why it’s far more nuanced than we think, and how we can use our observations of our dogs to support our relationship with them. 

Discover:

• How working with dogs from a young age shaped Angela’s approach to human life
• How to practice intentional observation of our dog’s body language
• How to become an expert on your individual dog’s ways of communicating
• How to support your dog’s self-regulation and teach them how to manage their feelings

 
 “Look At That” Game, https://youtu.be/L4o4kdWx0SA?si=YwcmStR1ca8eT11F

Follow The SubWOOFer on Instagram.
Get our merch here!

Transcript

 Welcome back everybody. I am so thrilled that you're back here with me, and I'm so stoked for you to hear this week's episode. I think this topic is as misunderstood as it is universally important for all dog people to dive into. We're talking dog body language and self-regulation. As humans, I think we often feel the need to simplify things that aren't intuitive for us to understand. And dog body language is one of those things. Now we've got the advantage of communicating with each other through verbal language. And although we also obviously communicate through body language too, like dogs too, I think it's a much more nuanced part of communication. The most of us aren't nearly as in tune with as we are with our words. Dogs, on the other hand, are consummate pros at observing, interpreting, responding to, and communicating with body language. In this, they are the teachers and we're the students. It really is fascinating to me. Today you'll hear me discuss this topic with Angela Murray, certified dog trainer and behavior therapist at, you guessed it, Summit Dog Training. Yes, I'm interviewing their entire team. Sorry, not sorry. They are freaking awesome. I don't think I've ever met someone who matches Angela's wealth of experience and knowledge in her field. Every single one of her team members told me before I talk to her that she is a genius with interpreting dog body language in particular, and it really shows in this interview. Beyond that, her passion for educating people and continuing to educate herself as a dog professional who's also dedicated to supporting humans is so palpable. I have so much respect for her and what she brings to this industry, and I also just really, really enjoyed this conversation with her. I can't wait for you to experience it too. So here we go. Today on our podcast I'm so excited to have this guest with us. This is Angela Murray. She is one of our fantastic trainers here in Fort Collins, Colorado at Summit Dog Training. And I'm I'm just blown away by her credentials and her bio. So I'm going to dive right into that. Angela inherited her love of animals from her mother and grew up tagging along and assisting in all aspects of her mother's dog training business. After studying wolf behavior at Wolf Park in Battleground Indiana and completing Purdue University's Dog's Principles and Techniques of Behavior Modification program, she decided to pursue a career in canines to make an impact on people's everyday lives and help dogs stay in their forever homes. She has more than 30 years of experience and several thousands of hours in continuing education through seminars and accredited programs. Her specialty is helping dogs who struggle emotionally learn to self-regulate through species typical behaviors, which is what we'll be talking about today. I'm so excited! Angela is a certified behavior consultant canine through CCP, PT, and in June of 2023, she completed the Applied Animal Behavior Course through the University of Washington. Over the last eight years, she has focused on training other professionals and dog enthusiasts by creating and implementing a dog behavior program at What Bonsai Community College in Sugar Grove, Illinois. And she's continuing this work here in northern Colorado. She has also been a mentor for the Animal Behavior College and Catch Training Academy. Angela believes in fostering a partnership between people and dogs based on trust communication and safety, Allowing dogs the unlimited potential to be the best they can be. Angela currently shares her home with her partner Dave to Australian shepherds Yoshimi and Buddha, and a cat as well. And your cat's name is Lucy, right? Correct. Yeah. We gotta credit. We gotta credit the cap even though it's a dog podcast. After after looking at your incredible history of working with dogs since childhood, I'm just so excited to dig in. And I know you grew up helping with your mom's dog training business, and I'm curious about how working with dogs from a young age shaped your approach to human life. Yeah. So I would say probably taught me the most is to observe a lot and to listen, um, and then try to respond respectfully without judgment. So, um, for example, like dogs, you know, dogs communicate through body language. So if I can observe that communication. And then try to respond in a way that builds, um, trust with that dog. Um, then it just feel like we build this relationship that is mutually respectful because of the observation skills that I have acquired over the years to be able to kind of listen to the dog. So like an example would be what we call consent to pet. So humans like to do things to dogs like we without even thinking because we're primates, we just do stuff. And so if we if we have kind of the mindset of I'm going to do this, so I'm going to touch you and because I want to, then I touched my animal. And for a few moments and then I stop and I observe and I go, how does my dog feel about that? Does my dog wants to be touched right now? Does my dog like where I'm touching them right now? So it's just putting ourselves into a more observational role to allow the other species, whether it's kids, people, dogs, to have a say in that relationship and in that conversation. Yeah. That's incredible. I feel like that is such a valuable skill that may not be focused on as much as it should be. Um, for a lot of young people growing up, how to listen not just by hearing someone speak, um, but to, you know, take a step back and put yourself in an observational role. And there I mean, I've talked about I have a history of music education. I've talked about very similar things with students of mine before with my stepson. I'm saying, okay, it's basically reading, reading the room that you're in here, like reading your intercepts. That's, uh, I think that's a fantastic lesson that we have to learn. Um, and I also think it's a journey, but something I'm sure that is a practice, you know. Yes. Right. It's a skill that you develop, you know, uh, once you're once you're aware of it. So it's like being being, like, brought to the forefront of being aware of it and then being able to go, hey, I'm in this situation. I can practice this skill. Okay, let me try. And then over time it just becomes easier and easier. Yes, definitely it's mindset first and then everything else starts to follow. That's awesome. Well, what we're digging into today is exactly what you've just touched on, which is dog body language and self-regulation, which when I hear the term self-regulation, to be honest with you, that's not a term that I grew up hearing. I think it's true for a lot of people, not something that I really became aware of until I was in probably in my late 20s. The concept of self-regulation as it applies to humans, let alone dogs. So I'm really excited to talk about that. Let's start on the body language side of this, since that is such an important aspect of our relationships with our dogs. What is the most common misconception that you feel people have about dog body language? I think in order for things to make sense to us about a species that's not human is that we like, we need to put things in boxes so that we can try to understand. And I think when that happens and we don't go to the next step is we universally decide things like, um, you know, all jumping behavior means the same thing. Or the most common one that we're still debugging to this day is that, um, when a dog's tail is wagging, it means it's happy. That can be one emotion that a dog feels while wagging its tail. But it's not the only emotion it feels, you know? So wagging tail doesn't always equate to what we would consider to be a happy dog or a social dog, or it can have so many other meanings. So I think being open to recognizing that we don't all have one body language, that means the exact same thing across every human. We have lots of variation and it's also based on the relationship. If you're, you know, the relationship that you're in or the context. So the, um, environment that you're in, the situation we behave differently, you know. And so um, dogs are the same. So it's it's really not taking one body language behavior and universally saying that it's this emotion. Why do you think we tend to oversimplify in that way with dog body language? Is it because we do? Is it because we feel like they have a simpler emotional capacity than we do? Or what are your. What's your take on that? I think maybe it's just easier to go. Oh, I know what that is. I can just like, move on and mark it off the list of going, oh, yeah, my dog's happy I can. It's just a very, I think, just an easy thing to be able to. Yeah. You just don't know what you don't know. Right. So if you get this small piece of information then I think you just go, okay, that's it. And then I don't need to know anymore unless somebody says to you or explains to you or opens your eyes to something different. As someone who, like, I definitely have perfectionist tendencies, I can relate to the need to define things really, really clearly. And I think if you like, have the answer. Like if someone gives you an answer that goes, yeah, okay, that makes sense to me, right? Then we just go, okay, then that's the right answer and we just move on. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We don't tend to question when we don't have I mean, like you said, when we don't know what we don't know, we tend to just say, oh, does that make sense? Great. Um, and then we go from there. So I know we've already touched on the importance of taking the time to learn about and interpret our dog's body language. But this is something I know you speak about all the time at Ames Community College, and I'm wondering if we can get your take on why is it so important for us to spend the time to learn how to interpret what our dogs are telling us with their bodies? Yeah. So I would say it's probably the most important aspect of sharing your home with a dog or any animal, really, that is different from us. Um, because it's the dog side of the conversation, right? And I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to live with somebody. Um, that every attempt you make to communicate is almost dismissed, right? Or you're not listened to. And then you are expected to like any time that that person communicates to you, you're supposed to just do everything that they say, you know, pay attention to them when they want to. But yet your side of the conversation is never heard. And so the way that dogs communicate is through their body language, and I'm sure they feel unheard most of the time. And I just can't imagine how frustrating that is, because I know if my if my partner or my kids completely ignored me, unless I was really adamant and loud in my behavior, then it would be a very frustrating existence, I would think. Yeah, I, I like looking at it that way because I think the majority of people don't see those attempts to like, communicate. As for what they are, right. We see them as unwanted behavior or, uh, being naughty or and of course they could come from trying to gain your attention. I'm sure they could come from other things to, like, lacking stimulation. Um, but I think it's a it seems like a reframing of how we think of our dog's behavior is a really good first step. I really try to help people see or what I, what I call acknowledge the acknowledgement. So voluntary eye contact. When a dog makes voluntary eye contact with you in your every day. It's not about training, it's about building relationship and seeing them. Right. So if they look at you, I always say, you know, like hi or, you know, Yoshimi, you're so cute. I love you Like just, just some type of affirmation of connection that is just based on. I see you. You, you see me, I see you. You know, um, if my dog voluntarily just comes over and sits by me, I acknowledge that behavior again, not a training behavior. I'm just saying, hey, thank you for coming and sitting with me. I love that I love you. You know, that's why we have dogs just to share our lives with them, right? Yeah. Well, and taking those little moments and appreciating those things, I think sometimes it's harder for us to focus on that appreciation of, oh, look, my dog's here sitting with me. I'm happy about that. Rather than being distracted and not in the moment and thinking of other things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, I'm a total nerd about it. Every time I pass, Otto likes to sit at the top of the stairs and that that's his little perch because he can see out the front windows every time I pass by him. I'm like, who's mama's good boy? I know and I mean, just he's just like, hey! And wags his tail. It's constant. Yeah, I've. If people were witness to it, I would be teased. But that's okay. Yeah. Well, I have a different question since since dog body language is clearly more nuanced than we might initially think. And of course, we misinterpret a number of things like a wagging tail, which could mean happiness and could mean ten other emotions, or 20, yes, across different dogs. Have you noticed individual body language expressions that are a little bit unique to them, or variations on a certain, um, certain body cue that might reflect a different breed or a different age or a different personality? Uh, is that something that you've noticed? Yes. All the above. All the above. So we have dogs as a species, right. And then we have specific genes that we you know, breeds or, you know, a combination of breeds that we purposefully selected specific characteristics to be more likely to perform certain behaviors than other dogs. Right. And then we also have what, um, Kim Brophy, who, um, is an applied ethologist, um, called self, which is basically an individual. We have personality, you know. And then we have, um, relationships that also influence how our body responds. So I don't think we can. We're just starting with research to be able to kind of peace out a little bit more on like breed specific communication, because we are finding that poodles are communicating a little bit different than like our huskies might be communicating. So it would be what I would consider equivalent to us living in different parts of the world. Right. And so and we have different cultures and different religions. And so we have like different things that make sense to us, but maybe mis communicating to other people or other parts of the world. So some things are acceptable and some things aren't. And so we're just kind of starting to piece those things together to have a even more understanding of our dogs. Because humans tend to lump dogs as dogs, as dogs as dogs, and they should all act the same. They should all be socially appropriate. They should all be able to handle every environment they're in love. All kids love all other dogs. Um, and so they struggle, and rightfully so. Do you feel have you witnessed, like, some miscommunication? I'm sure you have some miscommunications between different dogs. Um, you know, or one. Yeah. Coming in with their language like, hey, I'm happy to be here. And the other one goes, I don't like how you looked at me. Not cool. Yeah. Like I got rules and and think about just in our own world of human personalities, we have the same thing, right? So we can have people that are extrovert versus introvert. And when you get those two together, sometimes, you know, there's there's a lot of like, whoa, this doesn't feel good because you're not speaking my language. Like, I don't want to be up doing karaoke. I need to sit in the chair and just observe, you know? And so, um, yeah. So we have dogs that are very, I would say, socially unaware because within their self is not even a thought of possessing an item and, and not wanting to share it. And then you have other dogs that are like, whoa, that's rude. I had that first. This is mine. You know. And so if our humans were a little bit more educated in being able to see these nuances and really understand their own dog, really they need to be an expert of their own dog. They don't need to know all dogs, but they should know their dog, like interpersonally, like really know their nuances. Just like you would know your partner that you were living with for ten years. You know, like you get to know all the the really, um, personal details of how how that person works. And so I think if we do that with our dogs, we can set them up to be more successful. And we wouldn't be so frustrated. Yeah. And get, get upset about things that we go, okay, I understand you. Therefore I know you're not going to love the dog park, even though I think I need to socialize with the dog park. Clearly this is not your thing and that's okay. We don't have to force you to go to the dog park. You love when we have a barbecue and you know all of our friends dogs bring their dogs over. That's your social group. You have a great time. You do great there. So just again, learning about your dog as an individual and and being able to supply them with the social needs they need and all the other stuff that they want in a way that is best for them. Yeah. Like you said about like the different personalities and communication style, I think it's important to pay attention to the dogs that your dog tends to do really well with, like my ten month old puppy. I know his type. I know what's going to be overwhelming. I know what who you're going to do well with personality wise. And that didn't come from I mean, it largely came from all of you at summit, guiding me toward that and helping me to interpret his behaviors and his body language as I brought him to puppy play school, as I brought him to play group, as he was in adventure camp and, you know, all that stuff. And I think for me, where I started to land was rather than thinking, oh my God, okay, well, he's reacting to this, so we have to fix that. He's reacting to this dog, so we have to fix that. I started changing my mentality to, okay, I'm receiving information right now about what works and what does not work for him. And maybe, you know, there's some things we can work on, of course, and we will work on those. But rather than looking at the playmates that he got a little irritated with as, oh my God this is a gigantic problem, I started to look at it as, okay, this personality of dog is not his favorite. He really has trouble with other super energetic terriers. He has trouble with them. Um, and that's all right. He may, you know, he may mature and be able to deal later. We may be able to work on it, but that's it's just information. And for me that was a big adjustment, a really conscious adjustment because I went into puppy raising thinking, we're going to get everything right. No new parents do the same thing by the way of children. They do the same thing. We're going to do this right. We got this plan and this is what we're going to do. And then life happens. And it just it's just a loose framework. Yes. Well, he's an individual buster. I mean, all dogs are, but especially I'm sure you're wildly familiar as a terrier mix. He is definitely his own personality. And staying curious and being observant, as you're saying, has benefited me greatly. And it's been like it's taken an effort on my part to shift my mindset there. But I think it's worth it for for any dog owner to, you know, stop looking at the information you're given as just problems to be solved and, you know, interpret it accordingly. And yeah, anyway, and I think that we we definitely set us up to fail when it comes to having dogs just culturally in our society. Um, because we put all of these unrealistic expectations of what a dog should be. Um, and then when it doesn't go that way, it does automatically become a problem. Mhm. And I, I hope as we keep moving along, I've been in the industry long enough that, you know, we, we can make change in a short amount of time. And then there's things that hold on that we just can't let go of. And so I do see a shift overall, um, in being able to teach people when they are seeking out the help that it's not about the CIT. We always say the two things in the industry are it's not about the CIT and it depends. I always said, I'm going to write a book called It Depends because it is. So it's it's as complicated and nuanced as human relationships are. So again, we want to fit it into a box and and check them all off. And now we have this pet dog. That is exactly what we had in mind. It was going to be, um, versus what the reality is. I think there has to be. I mean, these. These animals have evolved alongside us for such a long time at this point. Right. That I think it it only makes sense that the relationships we have with them and the relationships they have with each other are just as nuanced as these human relationships, because how much time have they and their ancestors and their generations of, you know, of dogs spent observing us, watching us, interpreting us. And they're such pros at that. Like, you know, we have we have a lot of room to grow when it comes to interpreting them in their body language. But it seems like our dogs are incredibly good at interpreting ours. And there have been so many occasions where I have realized that my dog has me figured out. Yes, that's why that is. The number one lesson I have learned from dogs is how to observe observe and then like, listen, like okay, and then have a response and then observe again. Like, just really let them be a part of the conversation because we don't, you know, they're observing us all the time. And so, like, they are good at knowing human communication and we do not give them that same respect back at all. But we have a lot to gain from it if we start to give that, you know, amazing release, it's amazing. It's why we keep getting dogs, because sometimes what happens is it evolves naturally over time for for many people. And so by the time unfortunately, we learn a lesson too late, which I think happens a lot anyways for humans, um, is that by the time that they are an adult dog and they're living in your lifestyle and they aren't doing their normal natural developmental stages of the first three years of adolescence and puppy hood and and not having any control over their feelings, and then us being frustrated. Once we get to that adult level, you get to feel the relationship because most people aren't commanding and demanding their dog to sit and stay and down and stay when they're eight, you know what I mean? They do it. They do it as a form of trying to control the feelings early on, because the human feels out of control when they're dogs, out of control. So we have this dynamic of, of early on in the relationship, which is the most profound Own time is doing things that I don't think is necessarily helpful to the relationship, and dogs are just so incredibly forgiving that, you know, they're like, I if I was a dog in my head, I'd be like, oh, that's just humans. Oh man. I'd be shaking my head like, there they go again, touching me all over. They didn't even ask me, you know, they're asking me to sit 50 times. Why do I need to sit 50 times? Just because you said so? Like it makes no, no sense. It's a it really should be about the relationship and then figuring out what words we need to have better communication for specific things, like, I need you to come to me because that's a safe thing. You might get hit by a car, right? So you're running and or there's deer or whatever it is, I need you to come back to me, or we have fun at the dog park. But you, I need you to know that when I call you, I need you to come to me. That doesn't mean they're going to come 100% of the time. They are a sentient being. They have their own mind and their own feelings and their own needs and wants. And so having this compromise, but yet putting specific words to specific things to make the communication clearer, is really what training should be. It shouldn't be about controlling another being. Mhm. Yeah. And that's like that is the statement of the hour. I feel like honestly, um, and it's, I mean, the I feel like half the battles that we fight as humans between, between ourselves is, are about control as well, rather than, you know, observing, recognizing, communicating. Um, right. Yeah. That's absolutely huge. Well, and if you work on your relationship with your dog in the way that you're saying and use training as a tool to, um, help that relationship flourish, then you are going to see more reliable behavior from your dog because you've spent that time built building the trust and the understanding that's there. Right? Yes, absolutely. And then to I think a lot of that I see now, which is I went I'm back in school again to do the human side of things because I've spent the first, you know, 30 years of my career in dogs, canines in general. But now like the human side is, is so fascinating to me because, you know, getting into self-regulation, it comes from the human side. And a lot of it, I think, was born out of the like, autistic community. And so when you are in classrooms that are geared towards that, they focus on teaching those kids self-regulating tools. Um. I was a witness to that. I, um, I was paired, I was hired by the school district to integrate a ten year old autistic boy with his dog into the school system, so I was kind of like, the advocate for the dog and the liaison to be able to get people comfortable. Understand what this. You know what this means having a dog in the school, what the teacher's roles are, what the dog's ability is. And this led me down a path I didn't know was coming, which is what I love about life, is that sitting in that classroom and watching the exercises that they were being taught on how to self-regulate in my mind, going, oh my gosh, this is exactly the same thing with dogs, exactly the same thing, you know? And so, um, I, I have two really good quotes that I think really make it easy to understand for the general public that we apply to children. And now, like, it really makes sense to me with dogs as well. So, uh, Doctor Becky Kennedy, she's a child child psychologist. Do you know her? Yeah, I love her. Right. So she wrote she wrote the book. Good Inside. And in that book, she has just two quotes that really stand out to me. And one is kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage those feelings, and then feelings without skills comes out and behavior. Mhm. And so those two things together is exactly the piece we're missing in helping people understand that we have feelings. We we are born with them. We just don't know how to regulate them and manage them in a way that makes us makes it appropriate to interact. And so I really have started framing a lot of my, my dogs that can't self-regulate, which comes out in many different forms. Um, so things like hyperactivity, reactivity, stereotypes which is repetitive behaviors that can turn maladaptive, um, you know, dogs that struggle with being left alone, you know, and so, like the core is they don't have the skills to deal with the feelings that they have. And so now having we're the industry is moving more into what we call behavioral therapy. So a lot of us who are doing behavior and who are following, um, the model of what's happening in the human world with children. Um, it's so therapy if you think about us going to therapy. Right. It's a long term process for personal growth, of trying to work through things that we would like to be better at. Mhm. Right. So the framework is the same the same for our dogs. It's just when you're you're paired with somebody that can help you see the dog and see how they're trying to self-regulate and the struggles that they're having and how you can support them or direct them if you need to. I think has for me, not only personally, has been so fulfilling. Like, I, I love my job. I love my job for 30 years, I love it, I am, I am passionate about it, I love it. But this the last couple of years, it has been even more motivating for me to want to get the information out to more people. So that we're not just trying to train our dogs not to have feelings. Mhm. I love that you're drawing this parallel because it was when I was in, uh, when I was working in a public school that I became more familiar with self self-regulation for young kids and students as well. And I think that currently schools do a really phenomenal job, especially at like kindergarten or younger, at starting to give these kids the skills to choose how to regulate themselves. Um, and I, I had the same epiphany just in reverse that you described. And when I started learning more about self-regulation and dogs, I was like, oh my God, this is not different. It's not different from what we're teaching to our human children. Um, so it's which is incredible to me. And, you know, I always say, I've said this on every interview so far. My intention is not to anthropomorphize our dogs because obviously they are a different species. But I feel like as mammals, as sentient beings, we all have this. Similar base set of needs that need to be met, and self-regulation skills apply to us in the same way that they apply to our dogs. And that's something that, um, so the concept of teaching self-regulation is still fairly new for us humans. Like when I was in school, it definitely wasn't focused on as much. I didn't even hear that term when I was that age. Um, so even newer then is the concept of applying it to our dogs and teaching them that skill. Can you speak a little bit about how we can begin to teach that skill to our dogs? Yes. So they have great species, typical self-regulating behaviors already. So some of the the things that I deal with the most are dogs have an incredible sense of smell, right? So they have a minimum of 300 million olfactory receptors. Humans have about 5 to 10 million in comparison. So 300 million. And that's not even counting the hounds. The scent towns. Right. They were bred to have way more. And so. They can self-regulate through smelling. Now, there's some caveats in that. One is it's not catching a scent and tracking, and it's not a scent that is arousing. It's learning how to like humans breathe like meditation, relaxation, breathing, so we can teach them to turn their nose on in a very concentrated area. So we you're familiar with this because we've been to summit. So we use boxes or containers. And then we would put like bath towels in there. And then we hide some stinky smelly food. And then we let the dog go in there. And we want them to not see the food. We want them just to smell the food. And we want to listen because we're always observing. So we want to make sure that as a human, we're observing. So I usually tell people, you want to listen for your dog's nose to come on as soon as you hear that nose, come on, you're going to start counting How long can they keep that nose on? Because the longer they can keep that nose on, the more physiological changes happens on the dog to calm down. And so if we can teach that skill without something super arousing and they just learn how to do the skill, we can then start to apply it to the things that they are struggling with. So any feelings? So smelling is one. Another big one that's easy for humans to see is the dog will do a full body shake off. Kind of like if you drenched the dog with water and they would shake it off so dogs will shake off. It's a really great, uh, nervous system. Reset. We have some. Some good research on both of those things where when the dog's nose is on or they shake off, it immediately lowers their heart rate and their pulse rate. So we know it's it's, you know, through science, it's calming their body so that we can turn on that parasympathetic nervous system, um, to relax themselves. And it's independent of you. So it's not a training skill. We're not training them. We're setting up a scenario where they can learn the skill independent of you. You can acknowledge when they do it. So you're being supportive to them so they can learn how to take care of their feelings on their own. Usually what happens is let's say reactivity is huge. Most of my clients health is for dogs that are reactive, right? And that's just a dysregulation in feelings. But what happens is, is so they they start to have feelings. So let's say it's their dog, um, reactive to other dogs while they're on leash. So, um, we're walking them. They see the other dog, they start to have a rise in feelings. Those feelings get stronger, stronger, stronger. They don't know how to regulate them. They don't have the skills. So they start lunging and barking. So right at the height of their arousal level, we correct them. Stop it. No, don't do that. And we stop the emotional cycle so we don't allow them to feel and go through the entire feeling Cycle for them to learn how to have the skill to regulate it, because we always just get them up high and then stop it, get them up high and stop it. And then we keep moving on, and we never allow that time to come down to the other side so they can at least go through it faster. So we, we, I think to tend to want to have our dogs never have feelings unless they're happy. Good feelings. Right? But we all have feelings. We all have emotions. And it's okay. That's what makes us who we are, right? And so allowing our dogs to have feelings and work through them is so much better than trying to stop and stifle their feelings, because then they never gain the skill to learn how to do it. And this is where I find that most of my students, who have been to many different types of dog training, never get progress because they're always micromanaging reactivity, they're always taking care of it and stopping it and setting up the environment to be perfect. And, you know, and then they're stressed out, and then their emotional regulation is that they control. So, you know, it's it's really is this this skill, just like with kids that we need to focus on with our dogs at a very young age will make it so much easier for our relationship. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, reactivity, which is something I will definitely expand further on in another episode. Um, but, you know, reactive behaviors for anyone who's listening that that might be wondering a little more about that. I mean, any behavior like you described barking, lunging, pulling scenario like behaviors that indicate your dog is not in control of themselves in that moment. Um, and so do you feel like with your students who have reactive dogs, that there is a pressure to do exactly what you said that we do, which is correct, right at the like at the apex of those emotions. Uh, social pressure. So if like, if we're out with our dogs and they're having a reaction, we feel the need to show whoever else is around that we're going to go in there and we're going to handle this, and we're going to stop what's happening. Do you feel like that's like the work on our side? Absolutely. The shame and the guilt and the frustration, the embarrassment, um, all of those things on the human side is also something that I, I help people work through as well because it is embarrassing. I've had reactive dogs. I have reactive dogs. So if the circumstances is correct, they are going to be reactive. And so I have also felt that, oh my gosh, like this is embarrassing and frustrating. And then being able to look at my dog and go, you're struggling. I'm so sorry. Okay, let's figure out what we can do to help you be, you know, feel more comfortable. But yes, we have a lot. Just like I said in the very beginning, we have a lot of expectations. And so definitely the social pressure that all dogs need to behave a certain way at all times. And it's just not the reality. You know, the judgments we get when you have a reactive dog, it becomes literally like, um, group therapy when I have reactive dog class, because all those people that are in there that are struggling, the human is struggling just as much as the dog is struggling. And so getting them to self-regulate together. I sometimes I have people, um, read to their dogs, so like reading to their dogs helps them build this relationship where the human can stay calm. So I pair them together at home first so that they they build this relationship of the dog settles and relaxes, and the human reads to them out loud. And then we move to a park. So where there's like, you know, there's stuff going on at a distance that is, uh, is comfortable. But the reading helps the human's feelings stay relaxed. And so then they're not so hyper focused on their dog. Um, or even if they want to put their dog in a crate in the, you know, in the back, if they have the hatch that goes up and we'll, we'll sit in the park there so that if if things get too stressful, we can shut it and then we can go for a drive if we need to. So I'm always working on the human piece of it as well. Uh, breathing, teaching people to breathe, you know, their dog and yeah, there's it's it's a relationship, a partnership. I, I used to read to my animals all the time when I was a kid, but I don't think I've done it once as an adult. Um, so that's something that I would definitely try. And yeah, I think the self-regulation on the human side is often overlooked, and I, I like I'll be the first to admit I have trouble with that because I have the tendency to be a little bit of a control freak. I it's just it's just a tendency I have. And, you know, something I've made progress with. But, you know, that's my own, my own therapy that I want. We all have that, right? We all have that some there's some parts of our personality or being that we struggle with. You know, so we're we're no different. We just think that we're. Yeah. That we are I guess. Yeah. Well, and our dogs are highly empathetic creatures. Right? Um, so. We may not. I mean, I've read a few different articles talking about how they can detect changes in emotion by scent. Often it changes in our emotion by scent because, um, the chemical, the chemicals in our body change, uh, when we have super strong emotions, just like the chemicals in their body, their bodies change. Um, and that, I mean, of course, why wouldn't they be worried if if they sensed that we were upset? Um, and that's just going to add more difficulty to managing reactivity and assisting. If we can't self-regulate, how can they self-regulate? It's like RuPaul says, if you can't love yourself, you can't self-regulate yourself. How are you going to self-regulate anybody else? Right? Right. Exactly. Off of each other, you know? And so if your dog is is struggling and then you become out of control and you lose yourself, then it's just two beings out of control. And that's when we get into, I think, um, more aversive things because we will keep trying to gain control through physical means or, you know, audio means to to, like, get everything under control again, you know, like, that's just the end goal. Just, you know, which is kind of, I think to us as humans, that correction at the height of our dog's emotional response, it might yield our dog stopping their reaction. And in our heads we might say, oh, great, what I just did is working right, but it's not really working. And that, I think, is one of the more difficult things to communicate to folks. Because if we're talking about reinforcement, there's our reinforcement right there. If we don't have that, yeah, we're like good, okay. Did that worked. So right when what would you you know, let's say someone is out with their dog on leash. Uh, this here this just happened to me the other day. I was just out walking auto in the neighborhood, which most of our walks are not on short leash in the neighborhood. Most of them are in long line in the park. But we've been doing a little bit more in the neighborhood lately, and I noticed an approaching dog on the opposite side of the street. And found an area with some grass where we could kind of sniff and hang out and just kind of we kind of moseyed around that area while this dog was approaching. And as dog got closer and closer, I could tell he was paying more and more attention to the fact that the dog was getting close. And then that dog is also starting to get aroused, which for Otto, that's like he hasn't. He is not at the point where he can face another dog that's reacting and decide that he won't like he was just, hey, this is what we're doing. It's what we're doing. Um, yeah. So, you know, the dog comes to the point where they're, um, level with us on the opposite side of the street, and he he's reacting. At this point, he starts barking. What would you recommend that someone do in a situation like that rather than just correct? Correct, correct. Yeah. So distance is always our best friend in the moment. So um, think about like from in the dog's mind, we've already or in their body they have no control anymore. And so now we do need to step in in a way that gets them out of the situation, doesn't correct the behavior, but gets them out of the situation as best as possible. So whether that is we need to block their site. So we go behind a car or building or a house or, you know, we try to give visual so that we're no longer seeing it, um, or it's distance of just, it's far enough away that my dog has stopped that behavior. And then once, once we're through, um, that immediate space, we want to give them time to decompress. So what people usually do is they go, oh, it's over. We move on. Well, the dog didn't come down from that experience to self-regulate, to shake off, to smell, to yawn, to stretch, to do what it needed to come back down to baseline from before it had been reactive. Right. So we need to give them time. And depending on the dog's ability, age, breed, whatever it is we have to know our dog is an individual to know. What are the cues that my dog says, yep, I'm ready, I'm good. And you can see that their heart rate is normal. You can you, you know, all the subtle nuances that says, yes, my dog is okay to move on. Mhm. Yeah. Distance is my has been my go to with auto where. You know, if I see signs that he's. You know. Tick, tick tick climb in that roller coaster and and he can't really stop that. I feel like that's the best possible thing is. All right, how can we create a little bit of distance here. And that's where the training side comes in. Right. The training side. So I will teach like a this way or let's go. And so that I can give a verbal cue even if my dog can't really hear it at the moment, or if I can catch it before they become disregulated and I can say, let's go. They have a framework of going, oh, that means we're going to go in the opposite direction and we're leaving. And so that we can help them, you know, be more successful at self-regulating though those rises and feelings. So if let's say, if you are at a distance, what you would call a comfortable distance where your dog may not be reacting, so to speak, but they are their body language is showing you that they're aware of the stimulus, that that might make them react at that distance. Like, you know, maybe they're a little stiff or like staring kind of hard at it. Um, is that a moment where you'd recommend, like, throwing some treats in the grass to see if we can get their nose going? Or would you recommend increasing the distance even further? Great question. I think sometimes I depending on the situation, I want to give the dog again experience on how to handle things on their own. So if it's at a level that's, you know, we're far enough away. They're, you know, they're alerted to they're watching I for me as the observer, I'm, I'm watching that line of, okay, this is baseline. We're getting aroused. Okay. And then are we able to come back down? Because I really want the dog to be able to have experience doing this, like moving up and moving down and moving up and moving down. And so I don't want to interrupt that if if I don't have to, it's when it goes up up up up, up. And now I'm starting to see behaviors that you are no longer going to be able to self-regulate yourself. And so I don't want to be proactive in interrupting what could be a great practice of self-regulating. Right. So but again, you have to observe and you have to know your dog and you. So you know, that also comes with that responsibility. Because what happens is people don't see it, don't see it, it's over threshold. And now boom, we're managing it. Well they don't see it. They're all over managing it. And I like to give dogs experience where they can feel it and how to control it on their own. So sometimes, you know, that's that the dog can sit and watch and and get a little excited and within, you know, sometimes 3 to 5 seconds they'll self-regulate themselves. So I at least want to wait at least five seconds, if I can, to to be able to seek in the dog, do it. And then I support that choice. Right. So if my dog sees a dog at a far distance, it's like, oh dog, dog, dog, dog dog. Oh, I'm gonna put my nose to the ground. Yes. Boom. Toss a treat. Right? Yeah. So I can say, oh, good job self-regulating. And I can be there to support my dog for making those good choices, because then they're more likely to do that. That's where the, you know, positive reinforcement comes in there. But I don't want it to be an operant thing all the time where it's like I look at it, I look at you, I look at it, I look at you because what dogs will do is they'll bypass their feelings to do the thing, to get the cookie right. Yes. And so I want them to look, have feelings. Feelings are normal, natural, have feelings and go, hey, do you see that dog? That's pretty cool, you know? Or my dog. And I put my nose to the ground and I carry on. Yes. Want to be training? When we make everything about training. A dog does not learn how to deal with its feelings. It just uses training to bypass those feelings. Right? Oh, my God, that is such. That's really profound for me. I've witnessed exactly what you just described. Like I've made this mistake before. Obviously, you know, I'm not a trainer, but this wasn't a happening with Otto. This was before Otto's time. But Sparky, who is Otto's cousin, I knew him all through his puppy hood as well. And he stayed here frequently through his puppy hood and his adolescence. And he was quite aroused by my cat. Who. If any of you are here watching this episode episode on YouTube, you just saw her make a cameo and I had some basic understanding of counter conditioning that I used, you know, infrequently here, there with our previous dog successfully that worked out for him. And so I start counter conditioning Sparky to Jinx with the beginning of the look at that game. And anyone listening can go to Instagram to see that game. Or I will link to summit's video going through. Look at that. It is a great game, but I didn't complete the game with Sparky. All he learned was I look at that, I look at you, I get a treat. And it was so rapid for him. It was it was like, you know, he he found the button or he was like, okay, here's the treat button. He's just like press press press press press press press. I just want more treats. Yeah, but but yeah, it did not teach him to regulate his emotions toward the cat. He knew when we were playing the game and he would play it really, really well, but just because he wanted food. So that makes perfect sense. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. There is so much nuance in education that gets lost. And then I think things get, um, either a bad rap or people judge them or have opinions about them not understanding the whole picture, you know? So look at that game is an amazing tool, but it is just a tool. And that that's why, you know, dog professionals, we are valuable. We are valuable to the the bridging the gap between, you know, helping the human and their dog work through all of those things. I appreciate the people that seek out, spend the money and time and invest. In having a dog professional help coach them and that as professionals, we should not take that lightly because there are a million other things they could be doing or not doing just to make their lives easier in relation to their dog. And they are looking to us for help. And I think that we have to be very kind and non-judgmental of the things that they've done, tried, don't know, um, or come with a history of knowledge, um, based on, you know, their environment that they grew up in, and we need to meet them where they're at. And our goal is to help them. We we love buzzwords in this industry. We love new, fun things that come out. The fundamentals are all the same to me. It just goes back to being a good communicator and building a mutually respectful relationship. Yeah, well, in that skill set you just described amongst training professionals to be non-judgmental, I have an incredible amount of respect for because I know how difficult that it can be to not bring judgement to the table when you are passionate about something and when you are experienced with something. And, um, I, I think that it's incredible anytime I run into anyone who is able to bring non-judgemental expertise and patience and advice and guidance to the table, and that is something that I've felt from the beginning with everyone that worked with you at summit, which I think is so important. And that's a people skill right there, you know, and it kind of comes back to the whole, all right, well. In order to help animals, you also have to help people like they go hand in hand. Yep. I have a few wrap up questions for you. This has been such an amazing discussion that I know we could go on for hours and hours. We've kind of already talked about this a little bit, but I want to fully connect the dots for everyone listening. A while ago we were at friends with dogs, which is a community event that summit has put together where we just get to go have beer and nerd out and talk dogs. And you mentioned that you feel your work with dogs has enabled you to be a better parent to your human kids. And that statement, like I mentioned you before, it really stuck with me because at the time, I was already starting to think about this podcast and I was like, I really I want to, I want, I want it to be, you know, an application style thing where we can take what we learned from dogs and realize how much value that we have to gain in our own lives. So I was wondering, could you speak a little more about why you feel like that's helped you so much? Sure. So I was a dog trainer before I was a mom. And early on in dog training, as I was learning, uh, a lot of it was about managing the environment to set the dog up to be successful. And what I found was with my kids, I. Because as any mom that's out there knows, it is tiring. You are tired all the time and you are juggling many things all at once. And so your bandwidth is not as big sometimes. And so being able to manage my environment where I could allow my kids to, where they didn't need my undivided 100% of my attention 100% of the time, where I could still be there and be in the environment. But they weren't looking to me for everything all the time, gave me the bandwidth to be able to be a better mom because I wasn't. I was able to still, you know, do all the, the other house things or and work and do those other things because I was managing the environment a little bit for me, not necessarily for my kids, but to help my own bandwidth and be able to be a better parent. It also taught me I'm also type A and liked everything to be orderly. So, uh, dog training taught me flexibility. Flexibility was the most valuable skill, I think, uh, because I always had a plan. And this is how the plan goes when it doesn't fit the plan, I struggle. And so being able to go up, that's the I mean, it is what it is and be able to kind of like roll with the punches and then figure out how on the fly to adjust so that adjusting felt more comfortable. Instead of not being able to deal with the stress because it became intolerable, the stress was if it didn't fit into what I needed to do and in the schedule, my stress level was too high. And so being able to go through flexibility allowed me to manage my stress better in different environments and go, okay, it's okay, we're here now. What can I do right now in this moment, to be able to lower my stress level so that I wasn't unregulated in yelling, basically, you know, or punishing or whatever it is that, you know, made me feel better because I was, you know, my emotions were too out of control. I, I feel like we we may be kindred spirits. I also yeah, I have um, I have difficulty at times managing my own expectations when I come into something with a plan that I feel great about and that I believe in, and then something goes awry. And yeah, it having that, that flexibility is absolutely a skill and a practice as well. And in practice, yes, I'm much better at it now. And yes, I feel like much differently now. And yeah, I have to say that was probably I am I'm grateful for that skill now. Yes, absolutely. Well, I've got a couple of other quick fires for you. So what is your favorite piece of advice to give your students? Uh, to focus on the relationship. Training is a small piece of that. I think many people put more weight and effort into training and miss out on the relationship. Yeah, I completely think you're right. Absolutely. This entire time that I've been raising auto, he doesn't know tricks. He doesn't know like I haven't. I haven't spent our training time working on those superficial things. And it's been more about the trust and the relationship and the socialization. And I would not have it any other way. And I'm so thankful that that is how I was guided by all of you at summit, because I, I, I've seen I'm seeing the payoff like happened right in front of me. I love it. If you liked this episode, don't forget to share it with a friend and remember that the best way to motivate me to create more is to leave a five star review to make sure you don't miss the next one. Follow and subscribe to the subwoofer on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you're listening. If you have thoughts or questions about what we talked about in this episode, I would love to hear from you genuinely. Feel free to DM me on the social channels for this podcast, or send an email to the subwoofer podcast at gmail.com. We'll see you next time on the subwoofer.