The Power of Choice: Embracing Childfree Life

On this episode, we’re diving into the profound topic of empowerment and choice, especially when it comes to parenthood decisions.

Joining us is our special guest, Genna Howard. Genna is an incredibly talented tattoo artist, painter, ceramics teacher, and strongman athlete. We’ve been friends for nearly 20 years, ever since our younger years from attending the same shows in NYC.

Follow Genna on Instagram:
(and see all of their amazing tattoo work and ceramics!)

• gennamhoward

In this episode, we discuss Genna and I both getting bilateral salpingectomy surgery, a permanent form of birth control. Genna's openness on social media about their experience with this surgery was a revelation for me and inspired me to consider this option for myself. Without Genna's vocal advocacy, I wouldn't have known this was even an option. Together, we share our stories to empower others, normalizing the idea that it’s okay to know that having children isn’t for you.

WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT:

• Our bisalp (bilateral salpingectomy) surgeries: What led up to them, our decisions, and our surgical experiences.
• The (high-level) differences between bilateral salpingectomy, tubal ligation, and hysterectomy, and what happens to your menstrual cycle with each.
• How people were either very supportive or not at all, and the stigmas surrounding childfree people.
• Societal norms, expectations, and pressures regarding parenthood.

We hope this episode provides insight and inspiration for those considering their own choices about parenthood. Remember, everyone’s path is different, and it’s all about making the decisions that are right for you. If you have any personal stories or questions, we’d love to hear from you!

Tune in and join the conversation on empowerment and choice in parenthood!

Parenthood Choices, Empowerment, Bilateral Salpingectomy, Permanent Birth Control, Childfree Life, Women's Health, Reproductive Health, Birth Control Options, Societal Norms, Childfree Stigma, Personal Stories, Mental Well-Being
-------------------------------------------
*****DISCLAIMER:  The Underwire Podcast provides content for informational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Jess G. and Ryan Rainbro are not medical professionals, and the opinions expressed on the podcast are based on their personal experiences, research, and general knowledge. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. ******

• Follow The Underwire Podcast on Instagram (TheUnderwirePod)
• Subscribe to The Underwire Podcast on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music
• If you liked this episode, please share and leave a review to help us reach more listeners
• Contact:
  • Email: TheUnderwirePod@gmail.com
  • DM TheUnderwirePod on Instagram

Transcript

00:00
Bye!

00:06
Hi everyone and welcome to the Underwire Podcast, offering support when life needs a lift. I'm your host Jess, joined with my co-host Ryan, and on today's episode, it's all about empowerment and choice, particularly when it comes to making decisions about parenthood. Our special guest today is our friend Jenna Howard, who is a very talented tattoo artist, painter, ceramics teacher, and last but not least, strongman athlete.

00:33
So Jenna and I have been friends for nearly 20 years. We met because I was always up in New York City going to shows and for anyone that knows me knows that New York is like my second home. So that makes a lot of sense. So I asked Jenna to be on this episode today because they were single-handedly the one who inspired me to even consider getting this surgery called a bilateral salp injectomy as a form of permanent birth control and that.

01:00
was because they were so vocal about it with their experiences on social media. And honestly, without Jenna being so vocal about it, I wouldn't have been aware that this was even a viable option for me. So together, we want to share our stories and empower others by openly discussing the power of choice when it comes to parenthood and help to normalize that it is okay if you know that having children is not for you. So.

01:28
Firstly, let's define what the hell a bilateral salp injectomy is. I mean, I swear it even took months for me to learn how to say that word correctly. Okay. So we're going to break it down, but what that is, I'm going to give you the chat GPT definition. Okay. I'm not a doctor, so we're just here to spread awareness and talk about our own personal experiences. So Jenna started talking about their experience with getting a bisalp and that is the removal of both.

01:58
Falopian tubes. It's a permanent form of birth control. So it prevents eggs from traveling to the ovaries or to the uterus effectively Preventing pregnancy obviously just said that it does not affect your period or any sort of hormone production anything like that so Jenna was very vocal about how they got this procedure done I didn't even know this was a thing and I've wanted to be childfree forever. I've never wanted

02:27
kids. So I was really inspired by that and actually ended up getting the surgery myself a couple years later. And Jenna was just such a huge help in just kind of easing my anxieties, like letting me know what the experiences was for them and so on and so forth. So Jenna, I just wanted to say thank you and thank you so much for being here.

02:54
Um, I'm really excited to hear about your experiences and explaining to everybody, you know, just empowering everybody, letting them know that these are options that you have, because I didn't, I had no idea. What led up to you wanting to get the bilateral salp inject me? Can you just tell us about that? Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I knew I didn't want kids. Uh, according to my mom, I

03:23
told her when I was four that I didn't want kids and I wanted to hang out and paint for the rest of my life, which is what I'm doing. Love that. But I remember in, I guess maybe like 15 or 16, learning about tubal ligation and being like, oh, I want that. You know, like I was already on the pill birth control at the time, which every like 16 year old goes on or whatever, because we're told that that is the safest and best option. And I already kind of.

03:52
was new to it and was having issues hormonally with what was going on. Like it just wasn't reacting well for me personally. And so I was like, Oh, tubal ligation. It's permanent. Great. Let's do it. Like, I know I don't want kids. And I went to an OBGYN the first time when I was 17, my current OBGYN. And I asked her, I sat her down and was like, is this possible for me? And she was like, no, absolutely not. We don't do that. You got to, you know, I usually don't do that on people before they have children. Like.

04:22
you're far too young, all this stuff. And I was just kinda like, okay, great. And so I continued to ask her for it every single year of my annual, and she continued to deny me. I actually brought in my own mother as a sponsor for the paperwork when I was 24, 25. I had to convince my parents that this was something I was gonna do regardless of whether they supported me or not. And so I think my mom kind of threw in the towel at one point and was like, I guess we have to support them because it's just gonna happen. At this point I...

04:47
I heard her kind of done a bunch of stuff life decision wise where I was like, I'm going to do this whether you guys like it or not. So I just kept getting denied. My OB even denied me when my mom was in there backing me up being like, no, you should take this person seriously. That's wild and so infuriating. Yep. And it's not even required in New York. You said that it's your current OB-GYN? Yes. Okay. Well, I won't Tarantino the story, but I mean, that seems like it starts off one way

05:17
You, okay, go ahead. I'll tell you how I essentially got her to do it. Okay, yeah. So I brought my mom in, I was like 24, 25, and she was like, no, I'm still not comfortable with this. You're too young, you might change your mind. Like the same bullshit that every single person's told when they're trying to do this. Or trying to have birth control that isn't just the like ABCs of birth control that we're told are available to us, which I was again, having problems with the pill. My sister had had.

05:46
insane problems with what's the, the one that everybody has problems with the pain inserting IUD. Okay. That's what I was. Copper IUD. Your sister had a problem with a copper IUD. Okay. Yeah. So I had had problems with the pill and the pill, I'm sure everybody knows this, like you can never stay on the same pill for a long period of time because every single company will discontinue making it and shift it off to another one. So you have to switch the type of pill you're on every two to three years. So I was

06:14
having consistent problems with the pill. My sister was on the IUD, had insane reactions to both the hormonal and the copper version. So I knew I didn't wanna do that. And the options were slim at that point. So I was like, this is what I want. And she wasn't listening. And then eventually spring 2022, I had to have an abortion. And I went to that OB to get my pills, to get my abortion, to go through the whole process.

06:40
And I did not leave her office that day until she wrote me a referral to a surgeon who would do it for me. And I know that there are Reddit groups that are like wonderful support groups for people finding doctors to do this, but I don't know why I wasn't interested in that. I had perused them and just didn't feel comfortable reaching out to a surgeon by myself without a referral. So I pretty much.

07:04
refused to leave. I was like, you're gonna write me a referral before I leave your office today, before I go through with this abortion. And she was like, okay. Like, she seemed only okay doing it when she saw how I reacted to being pregnant. There was no if, ends, or buts or it. She was like, do you want to see the ultrasound? And I was like, absolutely fucking not. Like, I have no interest in this. Like, let's be done with this. I'm gonna follow the instructions, do the whole thing. And then I, you know, went back for the checkup.

07:34
you know, checked in with her and was like, will you back me up insurance wise, all this stuff? And she was like, yeah, yeah, I'll do all the stuff you need me to do. Like, let's get it done. And I was like, great. And then I was in the office of the surgeon like two weeks later, and then that was how I got the surgery. And it sucks that I had to go through that. Like nobody should have to go through that. That's awful. I'm so sorry that you had to endure such drastic measures to prove the point that you don't wanna have fucking kids.

08:03
Yeah. That's infuriating. That really is maddening. Like I'm mad for you. Yeah. But it was also like worth it to get here. You know what I mean? It is part of just what it took to be taken seriously in that context. And like to be honest, I don't know if I would have had it today if I didn't have to go through that at that time. Like I don't know what it would have taken to be taken seriously by her. So then I ended up seeing the surgeon and the surgeon literally immediately was like, oh, why are you here? And I was like,

08:32
Oh, I want to get a tubal ligation. And she was like, no, you don't. That's stupid. I was like, what are you talking about? And she was like, tubal ligations are insanely outdated and not a thing that we do anymore. So you're going to get a buy sell. I was like, there you go. So what the fuck are you talking about? So why, while you brought it up, I'm going to now read the definition of a tubal ligation from chat GPT. Okay. So this.

08:58
involves this is technically what people refer to as getting your tubes tied. Probably what our moms got when they were our age, like after they had kids. Now this involves the surgical blocking. Again, this is from Chachi PT. Okay. We are not doctors. Involves a surgical blocking, sealing or cutting of the fallopian tubes. So the difference between a bisalp, which is what Jenna and I got.

09:25
versus a tubal ligation is that we had our tubes with a bicep, you get the tubes totally removed. They're taken out. They're not even in existence anymore. Maybe some people take them home in a tube. I did not, but tubal ligation is just, you just cut, they just cut them. And it prevents the eggs from traveling to the ovaries, can be performed using clips, rings, or cauterization. It's generally considered a permanent form of contraception, but

09:55
Reversal may be possible and in some rare cases now, here's the thing with a ligation it can fail due to the fallopian tubes Rejoining or a new passage forming that allows the egg to travel from the ovary to the uterus So this is this is something that can that is not fail safe. Whereas a bicep is they just take out the tubes

10:19
So, you know, to your doctor's point, like that's amazing that they told you that and was just not like, oh, okay, we're just going to do it with what they tell us to do. And they, they let you know the difference. Yeah. I mean, she pretty much was like, you know, cause I said, I was like, oh, you know, I've been told my whole life that tubal ligation is the way to go. And my OB even is like, oh, you'll get a tubal ligation. Like she didn't say anything about a bicelle. And then surgeon was like, well, actually it's not a fail safe.

10:48
There is also a chance where pretty much what happens is if your tubal ligation fails and you actually get pregnant, it's an ectopic pregnancy every single time, it literally cannot be a viable pregnancy, which in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, not only do you need an abortion, but you need a bicellum in the end anyway, if you have an ectopic pregnancy, you need to have that fallopian tube removed. So it would essentially be a waste of everybody's time.

11:16
for if you want a permanent form of birth control to get that. She also told me, and granted this was what she told me, I don't know the actual numbers. I never looked into it more, I just trusted her, that tubal ligation is not as reversible as you would believe. She said less than a third are actually reversible. So while we believe that vasectomies are wildly reversible, that is a more common thing to have done, where people will get them reversed in 10 years and it's fine and they have kids and it's great. Tubal ligation actually isn't.

11:45
really reversible in the way that we think it is. And it's a much more invasive surgical process to have it switched. You actually have to have full surgery rather than what we did, where it's like the microscopic surgery. So it would be much more harder on the body to bother to reverse. So at the end of the day, it's like not even worth it. And then for me, on top of that, she said that Bicep is a cancer preventative. It is linked to lower rates of ovarian and cervical cancer and possibly a lower rate of breast cancer.

12:14
And so my mom had breast cancer 10 years ago now, and she's fine, but that's actually how I was able to get my insurance to cover the entire process, was that I gave it to my insurance company as a cancer preventative. And so there are a lot of people I know that have done this procedure as a cancer preventative on top of being a form of birth control, whether they've had kids or not.

12:35
Yeah, that's obviously another huge benefit. And that's great that you were able to use that to your advantage with your insurance, because we all know insurance is trying to scam everybody out the wazoo. So I'm glad that you found a nice loophole there while we're on the topic. Let's just also go over the third option, which is a hysterectomy. So like, I feel like I don't know about you, Jenna, but for me, like one of the, the, the biggest

12:59
questions that I get other than what we're going to talk about this too, about what your period is like, because people don't know what happens to your period. So we're going to cover that in a second, but they think that like, Oh my goodness, you getting your uterus removed and this and that and the other thing. So the third type of permanent birth control is a hysterectomy. Like this is the one that's major surgery. It's it. So again, chat, cheapy T definition. This involves the surgical removal of the uterus.

13:29
can be partial removal of the uterus or the uterus and the cervix. This also causes permanent stop of menstruation. So this will stop your periods from happening and can be performed for various reasons, including fibroids, endometriosis, cancer. I think that it's very rare that just as a form of birth control, you would get a hysterectomy unless...

13:54
you have some sort of other underlying issue that could cause some sort of health problem. For this to be approved by your doctor without any sort of underlying health conditions, I don't think it's very realistic. This does not remove the fallopian tubes. However, it says a hysterectomy may involve the removal of fallopian tubes as well, especially if there are concerns about ovarian cancer. So again, using the removal of the fallopian tubes as a form of cancer prevention.

14:24
So while we're here, we'll just go over what happens with the menstrual cycle as well. If the ovaries are removed, the hormone production ceases, including menopause as well. If the ovaries are preserved, hormone production continues and you can still have a period. So this one is a little confusing to me, but I think that it's important to...

14:46
I don't know, learn about all of this stuff. We don't get taught this in school. The questions that even I had for my own female anatomy and like how this works going into the surgery, like I had to do research on, on all of this and still like, it's crazy, the lack of information that is taught to us and we have to like dig to find it's, it's crazy. But.

15:08
for a hysterectomy if the uterus and ovaries are removed, menstruation ceases immediately and menopause is induced. So a hysterectomy can induce early menopause. Now for the surgery that Jenna and I got, our periods are completely regular. We had nothing changed with anything hormonally and everything proceeds as usual. Jenna, would you agree with that? Yeah, I was actually also told that there is an additional surgery.

15:38
that one can do to remove the lining of your uterus, in which case you would no longer have a period which would also force menopause without a full hysterectomy. Oh wow. But also not a form of birth control at all. It's just a thing. So you can actually force your period removal without an invasive surgery. I have no idea what it's called, but my surgeon was like, yeah, people will do that too. And I was like, what? And she was like, that's not, we're not having that conversation. We're not, a hysterectomy is not a form of birth control. Wow.

16:08
That's wild. Oh, I just looked it up. Endometriosis. I can't even say, I can't say these words. It's for endometriosis, I believe. Endometrial ablation. Ablation destroys the lining of the uterus. Yeah, that sounds wild. Without having, without giving you birth control. Yeah, but it's like, there's a, I'm sure an innumerable amount of procedures that we just don't know exist for that part of you. It's like...

16:37
Well, I didn't know any of this. Dude, I didn't know. I swear that I had no idea that there was an orthoscopic surgery that you could get for permanent birth control. I had no idea until you were vocal and you posted about it. So anyway, now that we've gotten all of those big words and definitions out of the way, please, please continue along with your story. That's kind of where it ends. The reason I wanted to be.

17:01
so vocal about it was because I feel like my entire process was one where I had to just kind of figure it out for myself. And I felt really fucking lonely and sad where like, yeah, it's it. I mean, it was even the abortion, the side effects that I had from the abortion. I had no idea that any of that shit was a possibility. But it's like, you know, you think, okay, you have an abortion and it sucks. And then you're done, where I actually had no period for the resulting three or four months. And so I was

17:31
wildly confused because I was having all of my symptoms. I was having every single symptom down to the point where I thought I could feel myself having my period and I wasn't. And it was so fucking weird and I went to my OB and I was like, what is going on? She was like, oh yeah, it's normal. It happens all the time. A lot of people lose their period for like three to six months after, but just have all of the symptoms. And so she was like, oh, you just have to get put on a pill and it brings it right back. And I had to do that every month for three or four months after. And I had no idea that it was.

18:00
a thing that could happen, a thing that was normal. You know, nobody tells you any of that. Yeah, dude, like why wouldn't she tell you that ahead of time? Be like, oh yeah, by the way, let me tell you. I don't even know if it was like something she would have had to tell me as like in the moment, or it's just the thing that isn't talked about as a potential side effect at all. I think, again, I think part of it is just unfortunately, like the information about this stuff is purposefully hidden from the public.

18:28
whether that's censored or whether it's purposefully kept from us knowing it all to begin with. So we just have no idea. And that's, it's just the weird truth about the whole thing and the unfortunate thing is that like, you're just have to bear and grin it and just call your doctor and be like, what about this thing? And then they're like, oh yeah, it's normal, whatever. And they act like it's no big deal. But literally your body is just doing shit where you're like, I didn't know that was a possibility. So that was like horrifying.

18:58
I also had no idea what would happen. Like the, you know, you have your abortion and then you bleed for like two or three weeks and it just doesn't stop. And you're like, what is going on? When is this gonna stop? And it never does. And you're like, is this normal? Yeah, that must have been so scary. Yeah, I mean, it was like, I didn't question any of it because I knew that was what I was gonna do, no matter what, there was no other option. But it was just one of those things where like, again, we keep these things from each other, whether intentional or not.

19:28
or they get purposefully taken from us as like a part of our communal discussions about this stuff with each other. Yeah. And it just turns into like, that being a lonely experience for me, where I'm sure for plenty of people was for them as well. And maybe they didn't have an OB-GYN they could call in the moment. Or like a partner at home that would like take care of them in that moment. Yeah. So like, it sucked for me. I also like had a doctor and a partner and like a family who was willing to support granted.

19:57
My family does not know about that, but all the other stuff they know about, but it's like, you know, shit like that. I mean, even the fact that my OB was the one who was like saying that tubal ligation was an option for me in that moment and didn't ever take the time to explain the difference between that and a bicep. Yeah. That's wild to me. Had no idea. Bicep was even a thing until I met with my surgeon for the first time. That is crazy. And so thankful, I'm sure for your surgeon. Oh, she rocks. Yeah.

20:26
I have now recommended her to quite a few people in New York who have also followed through and gotten their by-selves with her. Dude, see that is, that shit's awesome. Like hearing about how you going through something, it doesn't make that experience for you any easier or like when shit like this happens, it doesn't take away any of the pain and suffering that you went through, through all of that. But to know that your story has helped other people.

20:56
something or not make the same mistake. It's nice to feel helpful from your own shit that you had to enjoy, I guess. Yeah. And it's like, you know, I probably wouldn't have been vocal about it had I not had the following I have. And I know that sounds really fucking ridiculous, but part of it is true where I have a decent following on the internet. And like, why not?

21:23
tell them about it. Like, why does this need to be a thing that I keep to myself? Why does this need to be part of my private experience? Especially when I have so many people in my life, I'm sure you do, and you included, like, so many people I know, whether they're in my immediate circle or not, that I know would love that information. Whether or not they go through with it, whether or not they share it about it with somebody, whether or not they learn about it in a way that makes them, you know, like, for somebody like you, Ryan, more compassionate about.

21:52
options that people have and just knowledgeable about what those experiences are. So I was just like, fuck it. I might as well just tell everybody. Yeah. And I'm so, I'm so glad that you did because obviously that impacted me. So thank you again, of course for that. So let's talk about the surgery now. So what was that experience like for you? And you know, maybe I can talk about the experience for me as well. We can kind of compare and contrast. Yeah. I mean, my, my surgeon was great.

22:21
like literally 10 out of 10 experience. My insurance covered all of it, which was wonderful. So I didn't have to worry about any of it. I was like a first appointment of the day, 6 a.m. surgery kind of deal. So I go in, I'm like half asleep. I don't know what's going on. And of course, like, I'm sure your state is similar to mine where you have to sign off on like a psyche valve thing being like, I'm a consenting adult. I know what I'm doing. And it gives you this whole list of shit you have to sign off on. And then your doctor has to sign off on it.

22:49
And then you have to sign off on it again, the day of the surgery, just to make sure. And you have to tell 40 different people that morning when you're half asleep, okay, what's the surgery you're getting? Bicep. Okay, what is that exactly? Oh, it's the removal of the fallopian tubes. Okay, great. Do you know what the name of your surgeon is? Like they ask you all of these questions just to make sure that you're well aware of what you're doing. And I went into the OR and my entire staff was all women. And...

23:19
They were playing like bachata music at like seven in the morning. And I went in and I was like, this is the best day ever. And I like made a joke about it and we were all joking about it. And yeah. And then they like, you know, gave me the little mask gas thing. And I made a joke about how strong the drugs were. Cause I also, uh, haven't done drugs in a long time. And so I was like,

23:41
Oh shit, this is strong. And then that's all I remember. And then I woke up somewhere else and then that was it. And everybody was like really fucking supportive of cool. And of course, while I was being asked these questions in the morning, I was like historically crying and I think a lot of them thought that it was me being sad or scared or something, but it was more so just like this overwhelming wave of relief of like, oh, this is actually happening now. Yes. You know, so the more people were like, what are you getting? And I was like a buy self. And I just kept saying it over and over and over again, after like an hour of doing this, I just started.

24:10
losing it to where when the, um, when the anesthesiologist like put the IV in my hand, I was just losing it. He was like, are you good? I was like, I'm fucking great, dude. I got my stuffed animal here. It's way too early. I'm about to get this surgery. And he was like, okay, just checking. And I was like, no, this is a good thing. I'm happy. Yeah. And then, you know, my mom drove me home, almost got us in a car accident on Canal Street on the way home, which was very much like her.

24:39
was home and in my bed by like 1 PM. And it was like so chill. And my partner Christian just took care of me the whole time. I stayed at home for two full weeks. I was like, I'm taking the time off of fucking work. Hell yeah. I sit in my house and paint the whole time. And the recovery was also really easy. I, um, I couldn't really stand up on my own for about 48 hours. You know, I needed a little bit of help, but like, I didn't have any issues with any of the incisions. None of that was a problem for me. I also didn't have any post

25:08
anesthesia stuff. Like I know sometimes people have stuff with their stomachs afterwards. None of that was a problem for me. I took whatever opiate drugs they gave me for probably two days and then I was done with that. And like the worst thing was probably, you know, they tell you you're going to have gas pain, which is not what you think it's going to be because they literally have to pump your stomach of gas. So you think, oh, I'm going to be like bloated and farty for a couple of days. But it's not that it's you have actually gas migrating around your body.

25:37
trying to get out. And so for me, it built up in my shoulders and my neck. And so I just remember feeling like really uncomfortable in my shoulders and my neck, maybe day four or five for like 24 hours. And then that was it. I was chilling in bed eating for a few days. And then I was just like going for little walks and getting coffee. And then day 10 to 14, I was completely normal. And then I was back at the gym, probably exactly at the two week mark. That's sick.

26:04
I, I, that my doctor told me she was like, you can go back to the gym. Now I was like, we're going to go squatting today, baby. I don't care. So sick. I, I, I waited, I waited a month to get back to the gym, but that's also, you know, that's fine. But as far as the surgery itself, like as far as that goes, everything was. Incredible. You know, I was super anxious before leading up to it, but still is a major surgery, like you're going under it's, it's still scary, right? But.

26:33
Honestly, everything about the experience, for me, it was super easy for me to get approval. All I did was when I went in for my annual, my OBGYN was like, you know, asking me about birth control or whatever. And she asked about like me wanting kids. I was like, fuck no. And she's like, oh, and I was like, yeah. I was like, I don't want kids at all. And she's like, well, I could definitely like, she offered it. She's like, well, I could definitely like help you out. She is amazing. I got a recommendation for her.

27:01
Dr. Han, okay, she's in Karyaprasha. She's fantastic. I got a recommendation for her from somebody I know at work who she delivered like two of her kids or something. Yeah, she was incredible. Super, super patient. She like even called me on the phone like an extra time to like answer all questions I had. I was really lucky. She was incredible. So she was just like, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it for you. I'll put a note in here saying that we already talked about it.

27:27
You know, as long as it's scheduled 30 days after this, like we're good to go. And she went over that my insurance would cover it except for the $400 copay, which is fine because otherwise it would have been like, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars. So that was great. So that process for me looked way different than it did for you. You know, I hope more people are able to have that same experience because it should be, it shouldn't be, you go in there and tell them, Hey, I, I, I

27:54
don't want to have kids. I just want my tubes taken out. Like I want to buy salt. And the first question out of their mouth shouldn't be, well, do you think you're changed your mind? I don't know. I think, I just think that that's just ridiculous and invalidating, but anyway, that's neither here nor there. So my surgery itself, it was absolutely fantastic. The anesthesia was honestly, I was scared about it because when I had surgery before I woke up and felt like really nauseous, but I told them that ahead of time and they put whatever

28:24
drugs they needed to to cancel that out afterwards. I woke up, honestly, the first thing I said was, why are boys dumb? Those were the first words out of my mouth. No offense, Ryan, you're not done. Why are they? But I don't know. The nurse was like, beats me, but if you can find out, let me know. Those were the first words out of my mouth. I was in and out. I was first, again, just like you, like first thing in the morning, I was home.

28:50
by lunchtime watching cartoons. My friend drove me home and when I was sitting in the car, I'm like, I had surgery, like I feel fine. Like they made me pee and that was fine. I felt fine. The only thing that really bothered me that day was the gas that you were talking about. Cause they have to blow up your abdomen with gas so that they can, you know, do a little snip snip in there. But the hardest part about my recovery was not doing too much. I went to some music video games fest, like the week after.

29:19
for like five days long and was completely fine. The incisions didn't bother me at all. Now you can barely see them. It looks like nothing happened. It was the best decision I've ever made in my entire life. And the only thing I regret is not doing it sooner. It would have been great to have that. Yeah, and to me, it's like to hear anybody of any age.

29:42
I understand maybe a 17 year old is a little young, but to hear it like somebody in their 20s or 30s say, I want this surgery and to have the OB say, well, what about you changing your mind? It's like, if somebody's coming to you and saying that they want a surgical birth control, whether it's a tubal ligation or bicep or whatever they're asking for, if they're asking for a surgical birth control, why do you want to put them in the position where they might have kids?

30:06
Exactly. And I understand that it's maybe not your discretion as a doctor to make that decision for them. But if they're telling you they're ready to have surgery, maybe they shouldn't have children. And I don't mean that as an insult to myself or you to anybody who does this. I mean that as like, I have the self-awareness, and I'm sure you do as well as everybody else who does this, that I would not be in a good position to be a parent. And I don't want kids. Why would I want to bring kids into the world?

30:34
when they're not 100 million percent wanted. Exactly. That is such a good point. My sister has two kids. She talked about how she wanted kids when she was a kid. She wanted them so bad, she had two really difficult pregnancies, because again, she had hormonal complications from an IUD prior. She wanted those fucking kids. Her whole life is her children. That's it. She's a great parent. I'm not that person.

31:03
I'm never going to be that person. I'm less that person now than I was at 17. The older I get, the more I realized that that's really not in the cards for me. Dude, I completely, I completely agree. I feel like, you know, society just pressures people to be like, oh, we got to have kids. There's a biological clock running out, you know, and, and the societal norms for expectations placed on the standard of woman.

31:28
regarding motherhood is like absolutely ridiculous. Like how it's supposed to be super fulfilling and just reinforces the idea of that. A woman's purpose in life is to bear children and be a mother. And it's like, I like to just be in silence when I walk in my house and not have to. I couldn't imagine having a super hard day doing whatever, work, whatever, being super stressed out and then having to come home.

31:58
and transition into having to take care of little people and not give myself what I need. Like, I don't want to do that. That does not interest me. And I respect people who do, because that shit is hard, but it's not what I want. Yeah. And I just think that like, if anything we should be rewarding and applauding people who seek this out more than we are for that self-awareness, for not bringing children into situations where they're not 100% wanted in the world.

32:28
Like there are so many people who struggle to have children and it's like, they are the people who should be having kids. The people who really wanna have kids, who feel super compelled to do it, go for it. That's just not who I've ever been. And the older I get and the more I learn about myself, the more I'm just like, I just don't think that that I would be a suitable parent because of those reasons. I would try my hardest, of course anybody would, but there are parts of my childhood where I felt like unwanted and felt

32:57
very burdensome to the people around me. And I would never want to do that to a child. And I don't know if I'm capable of raising a child in an environment where I would not be able to do that to them, to not resent them or show them that I do somehow. Because I see it in people and that's how I feel. Yeah. But it's like, why would my doctor or your doctor or any doctor say, well, you might change your mind. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. I don't know. It's not their decision. No, it's.

33:26
It's one of those surgeries that also has an overwhelmingly low rate of regret. You know, we can talk about elected surgeries that people get that have higher rates. Oh yeah. And it's like, you know, what are we talking about? We're talking about one of the rarest surgeries that people get elected that has one of the lowest rates of regret. Ever across like all elected surgeries, people regret their nose jobs more, but we give teenagers nose jobs. That is such a good point that it, we're okay with.

33:56
changing the structure of your face and be like, oh yeah, it's okay. Like that's not, that's normal. Like how, how are people going to be like, yeah, well, are you sure you might change your mind? Well, I don't know. Maybe you'll, you'll exactly what you said. Maybe you'll regret that nose job. Are you sure? And like, you know, get a nose job, get your filler, get your elected surgery. I don't give a shit what you do. That's exactly it. Have a nice time. You know, like it's your decision. If that's what you want. Hey, how about like, let's practice. Like here's an idea.

34:26
First of all, everybody should just mind their own business, okay? And worry about themselves. But second, mind your own business, but also practice being supportive of people's decisions, even if it's not for you, right? So just because you want something. Doesn't mean that that's what I want. And that can be okay. People can have different opinions, different decisions that they want to make to better their own life like that has nothing to do with you and it's none of your fucking business. So.

34:55
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to be supportive of things that have nothing to do with them. Like, hey, you think that this is best for you? I'm all for it. I'm really supportive of it. And it's the people who are miserable, like the miserable parents who I get that type of commentary the most from, like, oh, you'll regret it or like, oh, you'll change your mind. And it's usually the people that are the most miserable, not my friends who are parents that are really

35:25
good parents because they know it takes a lot of work. And they're all super respectful of my decision to not have kids because every single day they're like, this is a lot of work. I don't blame you for not wanting to have kids. This is a choice that I made for myself. I'm really in support of your decision. That's awesome. And that's great. And guess what? I like to hang out with their kids. I love my friends' kids. I also love going home to a quiet house afterwards. And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah.

35:52
And I also think that it's interesting because I think prior to having a surgery, I don't know if you relate to this, but I would tell people that I have no interest in having kids or like, no, I, you know, I hope one day that I get to have this surgery or like, I really just don't want kids or like whatever. And people wouldn't, wouldn't ever bat an eye. We're just like, oh, okay, whatever. That's your choice. But then when you tell them that you've had a permanent surgical solution to that, then they react where they're like, oh, you did that. Oh, why? That's really extreme.

36:22
Well, it's so funny that you say that because I'm thinking of before I had the surgery, but mentioned it. I don't know why I brought this up to my Italian family at Christmas Eve, but one of my cousins was like, Oh, it's funny that none of us have kids or want kids. My cousins don't have kids. Me and my brother, we don't have kids. My older brother was the only person who had a kid anyway. So my cousin's like, Oh yeah.

36:46
Nobody wants kids in this family. And then my aunt said something passive aggressive and I was like, well, I'm going to get surgery and she was like, Oh, well, who do you think is going to do that? No doctors kind of do that for you. And I'm just like, well, my OBGYN legit already told me that she would do it for me. Well, you need to find another doctor because that's just, that just seems wrong. And I was like, okay. And then I had the surgery without telling anybody. And then.

37:14
I talked to my aunt afterwards and I was like, oh yeah, sorry. Like I've been MIA for a little bit. Like you're, you're calling, but I just want to let you know that like, I just had this surgery that you told me that I couldn't get, and she was like, wait, what? And I was like, yeah, she's like, Oh, well, uh, uh, well, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I'm fine. She's like, I can't believe you did that. And I was like, oh, well, it's not your, not your choice, but yeah. It's like this big. Yeah.

37:40
It always gets a really strong reaction from people now when I tell them that it's like a permanent thing. And it's interesting how that never used to bother people before. When I go on 30, 31, whatever, whatever age I'm at, oh yeah, I don't have kids, I don't want kids, like whatever, you know? And I've had the same partner for almost 15 years now. And so people get really confused is that because they're like, well, don't the two of you like, well, kids like.

38:07
How does he feel? And I'm like, he also has a vasectomy and doesn't want kids. So I don't know what to tell you. Yeah. We're not having kids. We double locked that shit down. Dude, like the expectation of people are to like, get married, have kids. And if you don't do that, you don't have a fulfilling life. My first question would be, you had the same OB-GYN the whole time. Was there ever consideration to just, and maybe it's not this simple. I genuinely don't know. I've never had an OB-GYN. I can't afford it. But,

38:34
Is it difficult to just have a new OBGYN to just try a different doctor if you're being told no over and over again? Not that I'm blaming you for them saying no, but I'm just saying, was that ever a possibility of just like getting a second opinion, so to speak? Um, yes, I think part of it was that my OB was my sister's and my mom's. And so I just went to the person who everybody I knew went to.

38:57
And I didn't think anything of it. It was just like, Oh, I'm 16 or 17. I need to go to an OB. I guess I'll go to the same one that people in my family do like great. And then it became a thing where I was only going for an annual and asking every year, and then I would just kind of get frustrated and leave and just be like, okay, whatever. And it's just the type of thing where I think I was just very, very intimidated by the medical system in terms of finding a new OB, cause I just didn't really know where to start.

39:24
in terms of like finding an OB that would take my insurance, that would communicate with me in a certain type of way. When I was in high school, I went through like a million therapists. So I remember how challenging that was. And I remember just being like, I don't wanna go through that again. I went through maybe 15 or 16 therapists before I found one. So I was like, I don't wanna go through this like weird insurance, reintroduce myself, have to go through the paperwork, have to get the last doctor to send the new doctor the shit.

39:51
And so I think I was just so intimidated by the medical system that I just didn't ever bother. And of course, you know, part of that is why I got pregnant in the first place, why that ended up happening. Cause I think had I gone to somebody else, had I maybe had more access to different medical care or just even a different medical opinion, I'm sure it would have changed for me. So I do, that's like kind of my big regret with the thing is again, not getting it sooner. And I think part of that would have been maybe in my earlier mid twenties, making a push to find a different doctor that would have actually listened to me at that time.

40:20
So unfortunately it was more so just my own intimidation. And I'm learning that neurodivergency definitely also plays a factor in like the medical system and how I'm able to navigate that. And so I think it was partially that too, where it's like, I just was comfortable going to her in some weird fucked up way. And I just like knew what the answer was gonna be, even though I thought maybe it would change every year. I thought maybe.

40:41
know, when I was 17, I thought maybe at 21, her answer would change. And then when I was 21, maybe 24, 25 would change it. I thought bringing my mom in would change it. And then I thought maybe at 27, when I'm on a different insurance and I'm an adult or whatever, like it would change it. And then I thought maybe when I turned 30, it would change it. And then it really didn't take any of those things to change it. I think I probably would have had a different result had it gone to somebody else, but I think it was also just the medical system is very confusing and very intimidating.

41:08
especially with something like an OB GYN where it's like, you know, how many, how many are going to talk to you in a way that you want to be talked to about that kind of stuff. No, that makes perfect sense. And I certainly can understand that. I mean, I'll go to the same Chipotle over and over again, because I don't know if the other one is going to be the same experience or something so much less a something as a dramatic and something as such a, such a personal doctor as an OB GYN too, right? It's not even just like a general practitioner. That's such a very delicate situation. So I certainly understand that. But.

41:37
That's why I was asking. I didn't know if that's just a difficult thing to even change because of, like you mentioned, with just medical things, having records transferred over. I mean, even something, I'm saying even something, I guess it's somewhat of a parallel, but like if you go to a new dentist, so like you gotta make sure everything is transferable. Oh, your treatment plan didn't work for that. So that's for teeth. That's not even, you know, as intrusive as an OB-GYN. So I understand that. I just didn't know if that played a part.

42:04
My other question would be what kind of stuffed animal did you say you had at this surgery? Oh, I brought my rabbit stuffed animal that I've had since I was a baby. Does it have a name? Andy. Andy the rabbit. Andy. Jess, did you bring Mario Bear with you? I don't think I brought any comfort animals. I did bring one of my best friends and she was a huge comfort.

42:27
I will say though, something that did comfort me while I was in the hospital, one of those weird moments, as you may both may or may not know, my mom passed away last year. While I was in the hospital bed, I was feeling really anxious, you know, in the prep room, like waiting for surgery. Something that brought me a lot of comfort that was not a stuffed animal was music started playing and it was Phil Collins and my mom loved Phil Collins. And in that moment, I just felt really like,

42:56
I knew everything was going to be okay. Like, I don't know if that sounds corny or what. I don't, I don't care either way, but I felt like my mom was there. So, you know, that was my little- Do you want to hear something really fucked up? Yes. My mom also loves Phil Collins. My first concert was Phil Collins when I was nine and my mom brought me- Oh my gosh. Look at that. She was like, you like drums? Let's bring you to this guy who plays drums and sings. And then she brought me to a Phil Collins concert at MSG when I was a kid.

43:24
I love that so much. Well, Phil Collins is pretty punk rock though. He wears suits and tennis shoes. So, I mean, what's not. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I love Phil Collins. I don't care. Phil Collins is great. And I think it's great that this type of thing, like being child-free is being talked about more and it needs to continue to be talked about more to keep being more normalized in society. Because I think that a lot of people really do feel this way.

43:54
and just, you know, are not as strong-minded as we both are, and just have that whatever in the back of their head being like, well, society tells us that we should do this. So like, that's what I want, right? Like, how many times have you made another type of decision just because you feel like that's the decision that you should make, but not the decision you want to make?

44:17
when we were younger, I know that I personally have made a lot of those decisions, like when I was in high school, minor ones, not huge life-changing ones, but nonetheless, people do make those decisions based off of the pressures of society. So the more that this is talked about, the less of a chance somebody can have to do that. It's not something too where I feel like a lot of people, obviously you and I both exist in the world that we exist in. I'm a d***.

44:45
fucking tattoo or degenerate artists. Like people look at me and they're like, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, okay. You go off with their little life and do whatever you're doing. You're a fucking freak. You know, like they can look at me and feel that type of way. You have played in a bunch of bands and like live your life in a way that isn't the same as everybody else. So they can look at us and be like, oh, it makes sense that maybe they did that. Maybe they lived their life differently than everybody else. But I'm telling you, I've had people that are

45:13
regular ass normies hit me up and asked me questions about it and didn't ever think that that was a thing for them and now are questioning whether they want it. And I think that's awesome because it's not just a thing that weirdos want. It's a thing that I think a lot of just people in general would want for themselves in their life. And I just think it was, I don't know, I felt the need to share it because I just thought it was important to normalize it. And I knew that it was a thing that was going to come up in different ways with different people in the future anyway.

45:43
And I just was like, well, if I put it all out there, then they don't have to ask me questions about it anymore. I can just put it in the world. And then if somebody has a question, then I could just direct them to that. And obviously there's a difference between invasive and non-invasive questions about it. Like if people are sincere about asking me questions, I'll gladly answer. But if people are like, can you still have kids? And I'm like, no, that's the point. I've already answered that. It's already out in the world.

46:11
Just create it. Cause that's another question I've gotten. Oh my God. Create it an FAQ document and just send that out. All the stuff that I shared originally, which was I essentially just opened up my Instagram to question and answer for like two or three straight days about it. Yeah. And I just, I left them all up because I know people still, well, every once in a while I'll get a message from somebody who probably like didn't follow me at that point in time and then sees it. And then they're like, oh shit. Okay, cool. I can ask you questions about it.

46:40
And there's a lot of information up on there. So I just kept it all up because I was like, even if one person happens to see this in the future, it's worth keeping up. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm so glad again that you did that in the first place because who knows if I would have ever known that that was an option for me. So thanks. Yeah. I don't gatekeep. I don't believe in that shit. Yeah. Stop gatekeeping. Permanent birth control. Gatekeeping's for losers. I don't gatekeep anything. Yeah. I'm like, you want to...

47:09
You want all the information I have? Have it. I'm not the one who invented any of it. Yeah. But you know, it's, it's, it's really important really to just empower anybody to make decisions that align with their own desires and, and life goals of whatever else it's huge to know who you are and your authentic self. And if something doesn't align with that, you need to be able to have the courage to stand for what you believe in. And that can make those decisions that other people might not be okay with. And you know what? That's okay.

47:39
It's okay to disappoint people. I don't care. I'll disappoint people every day. I'll disappoint my aunt. Got that surgery. So. Yeah, no, it's a good thing. And I think there is space to talk about the surgery too as also more than just birth control. Cause I know for myself and probably countless people who have gotten it, it's also been a form of gender affirmation in a way that probably also isn't.

48:04
And this wasn't a part of the original me talking about it publicly. Cause that's very personal in a way that I didn't really want to go into on the internet, but also like being pregnant specifically, literally the worst I, and I hate to say that's the worst thing that's ever happened to me. Cause that's such a ridiculous statement. Cause for most people they're like, that's a blessing or whatever they want to say. Yeah, but it's valid. That's how you feel. That, that whole process for me was just.

48:31
one of the most like out of body experiences I've ever had where it was really like, this was the worst case scenario in my head and it's even worse than I imagined it. And like, I understand that people have positive pregnancies and they aren't so deeply affected by it, but that's just not what the case was for me. And I also like instantly knew it was happening and like just immediately felt out of control of my body and also out of control with like how I felt about myself. Cause it was so just like.

49:00
Oh, this thing is happening that I didn't want to have happen. And it's worse than I ever thought it was going to be. And also this is like making my body do things that like, I don't want it to do in a way that as a person who questions being a woman, it's like, Oh no, this is really like capital W womanhood in this like really crazy way. And it was just like, I need to get the shit out of my body because this also makes me feel like a person that I'm not. And so the surgery for me was also a lot of just like.

49:29
I don't ever want to be a pregnant person again. Because that for me is a big connection to womanhood in a way where I'm like, that's not me. That's 100% not me and not something I feel connected to in any way. And it made my body react in a way that was like very, very gender dysphoric. So that was a big part of it for me too. And then after that experience, I was like, oh, I really have to get this surgery because this is really not for me. That's a really good point. And I'm really happy that you shared that. So thank you.

49:55
So, you know, moving forward, in your opinion, were there any resources that you found helpful that we could share or any sort of support networks or strategies for navigating societal pressures or anything like that? Anything that you can suggest? Well, the trial through Reddit is great. Also a lot of people that have.

50:18
found their surgeon successfully off of that website. And also like that place was great too for like pre-surgery jitters in terms of what I needed to prepare for. Because again, there's little to no information on the just general public information of like how to prep for surgery like that. You know, like I didn't know about the gas thing until like three days before when I was on the trial at free read it being like, what do I need to buy? And everybody's like, get these pills to help your body with the gas. And I was like, what the fuck?

50:44
gas. So I literally bought like a 12 pack of gas X thinking I was going to be farty. And it was like, I didn't use it. And you know, cause people were like, yeah, this is what helps. And I'm like, is it? You know, but then it was like people being like, no, actually this is what this means and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff. So child free Reddit is actually a wonderful place and generally really supportive and full of really, really cool information. Just real quick. I just wanted to say I can agree with that also. That was a huge support for me.

51:11
in addition to you, because you know, I didn't want to keep hammering you with just all of my questions. Although you were great. You literally were so patient with me and anything that I asked you, you were super, super supportive of and patient. But Reddit, the child free Reddit, huge, huge also influence in me like deciding that like, yes, I'm going to get the surgery because so many, so many people are in there talking about their really great experiences. So can't recommend that enough.

51:37
Yeah, I also, uh, am an advocate for TikTok as information sharing, and there is also child free TikTok. And it's a thing where obviously it's a little harder to navigate that website in terms of algorithmic stuff, but to be honest, I found it a great place. I like was asking people questions in the comments. I was finding videos about people. They would post full recovery journeys on their information about where to find stuff, everything. So I also think that, I mean, just community online resources are great, but that

52:05
for me was the most helpful in terms of prepping myself for that experience and like where to find resources and stuff. Other than that, to be honest, I don't know that they really exist in like a physical realm in a way that I know of. So I did some research and even though I don't have experience personally with these, it does look like that there are some in-person support groups. One is called, no kidding, with an exclamation point.

52:34
And the definition or the description is a social club, an online community for adults who do not have children by choice. So child free people. And I went to their website. Apparently you can type in your zip code or just say what area you're in. And it hooks you up with people from your area who are also child free and you know, they have different social activities and things that people organize. I didn't really look too much into it, but it looked kind of neat and I might go back.

53:02
and kind of check it out myself because something that child-free people also struggle with, this is something another point to bring up, is that the lack of support, I guess, like for being child-free because I feel like especially as you get older, a lot of people, you know, a lot of your friends and stuff end up having kids and that's great. We want to support that but as a child-free person to find other child-free people to like do activities with.

53:31
You know, that can be kind of difficult sometimes. So, you know, I think that could be a great resource for you. If that's something that interests you for me, like Tik TOK and Reddit were the two big ones where I was like, this is a great information source, so yeah. Hopefully it doesn't get banned. Oh, fingers, fingers crossed. Who knows what's going on these days, dude, especially also when you said, hopefully it doesn't get banned, dude. When I, I heard what might be going on with birth control in the future.

53:59
I'm just so thankful that I got the surgery. Now it's just, woo. Oh, dodge that. Speaking of that, I'll tell you a fun story about my surgery journey. Okay. I forgot to mention this before. So the day, the day, the actual morning that the Roe vs. Wade thing started was the day of my consultation. So I walked into the consultation being like totally normal day, totally normal day, nothing could go wrong about to have this consultation.

54:28
So I went into the consultation was like, this is fucking sick. I'm gonna get this done. I'm like so mentally prepared. I have a list of things written down to talk about to like make my case. Cause I also thought it was gonna be a whole make my case thing, even though it wasn't at all because of my experiences. So I was like, gotta go make my case. I have a list of shit to talk about, like all this stuff. Have this amazing consultation with this surgeon. As I'm walking out of the office in the waiting room, everybody's crying. And I was like, what are you?

54:58
What's going on? Like all the nurses are like hysterical. And I was like, what is going on? Like, what is going on? So I asked somebody, I'm like, what just happened? And she just pointed this TV and I turned around and it's like, you know, the beginning of Roe versus Wade being overturned or the, I guess the day that the Supreme court like brought it to question or something. And so I just turned around and I was just like, what the fuck is happening? I was like, this is the craziest thing.

55:27
like the weirdest moment ever. And so yes, I am very thankful that of everything happening, no matter what, I feel very safe in my decision. And that's another, again, part of that is also 100% informative of why I chose to be so public about it, because I know that there are plenty of people who have had issues with birth control forever, and would rather make a permanent decision like that. Now, even in light of something like that happening, where I hope that talking about it could give them a little bit more.

55:56
clarity into the situation for themselves. So yeah, it was a weird day. That's wild that happened on that day. It was like meant to be that you were getting that done. It's like now's the time. Here's your confirmation. Yeah, it was the single-handed best decision of my adult life, 100%. You and me both. Yep, I, you know, there's no other way to put it. I have you among many other friends of mine who have done this surgery and.

56:24
It's a unanimous clarity situation. Like I just feel good, don't have to think about it ever again, and I get to just move forward. That's awesome. Me too, I feel the same. So now that we got all of the heavy lifting lifted, let's move on to some lighter, fun questions, shall we? We always do in every episode, we always ask this question, Jenna, okay? So this question is, who is one person that you are grateful for and why?

56:53
Oh, my partner, Christian, he takes care of me. And like throughout, especially all that surgery shit, he like took the time off work and was with me the entire two weeks at home, just with me at home. He makes fun of me that he had to like, help me go to the bathroom and help me wash for a couple of days. And he doesn't let me live that down ever. Uh, but yes, very thankful for him. He's about that. I love that. Shout out to Christian. Thanks for being the best partner. Yeah.

57:21
Another question we ask on every episode. We didn't mean to do this, but I continued to ask this because I'm genuinely interested. What are you currently listening to? It's been a lot of leeway recently. Okay. Make sense. Eddie was my boy. RIP. One of my favorite people that I've known in my life and leeway is one of my favorite bands of all time. And so I've just been going hard on the leeway recently. It's also like that time of year.

57:47
It gets nice out and all I want to listen to love that is like open mouth kiss over and over and over again. Hell yeah. Yeah. So now if you could tattoo any one person, who would it be? Hmm. Brian. Brian's pointing to himself. Yeah. Okay. Cool. It would be Ryan. That's my answer. Ryan, what, what would you, what would you ask for? What are you getting? I feel like I was going to get something from Jenna Watson. I don't remember what it was. You gotta, you gotta come back.

58:16
to New York and make it happen. Yeah. That sounds like a Herculean lift. Yeah. But. Maybe I'll come down there one day. I want to know. And this is actually a question that I do ask people all the time now. I recently just became fascinated with it. And your spelling of your name is even more unique than most people. But do you know why you were named Jenna? No, my mom's a weirdo. Like.

58:43
My great-grandmother's name is Gracie with a G. And so she named me after Gracie. But my mom is a weirdo and was like, well, Jenna with a G, I guess. My middle name is spelled wrong too. My middle name is Michelle with one L. So I get called Gina Michael all the time. And then my last name is Karey and Howard, which is an Armenian name. So like, God forbid anybody tried to pronounce that one. It's a mess. It's a mess of a name. I don't know why. My brother and my sister, both of their names, spelled normal.

59:11
But you don't even know the origin of Jenna or Michelle, where those names came from? No, no. My mom says it was named after my great-grandmother Gracie. That's where she got the G from. That's all I know. She grabbed the G and was like, I'm gonna figure out the rest later. Yeah. It's never gonna stop haunting me for my whole life. Well, in regards to tattoos, I wanted to ask what your biggest pet peeve is regarding tattoos. That could be anything across the board. Gatekeeping. Gatekeeping, like how? Yes.

59:42
Elaborate like, okay. I am particularly not fond of people that have been given information about tattooing by others and refuse to share it. None of us invented this. It can be better if we make the important information accessible. And like, I know a lot of tattooers that are my age and a little bit older that have been around for a while will say, Oh, well we need to gatekeep certain aspects of the industry. And I think that there are certain things within tattooing that.

01:00:11
are inevitably kind of hard to figure out based on the fact that you need to be in a tattoo shop to figure it out. It's not something that can necessarily be shared. Like being good at tattooing is not something that can be shared. You have to spend time in a tattoo shop. You have to spend time around different types of people. You have to learn how to deal with every single person that walks in the door. You have to be non-judgmental. You have to greet them with a certain level of grace and information. Things like that can't be taught.

01:00:41
gatekeep-y thing. Like that's just a, you got to go work in a shop for a while and see if you even like it. Like anything, you know, like being a touring musician, you can't gatekeep being a good touring musician. You have to go tour. You have to figure out if you like touring, if you work well with those people, if you work well in that environment. That's not something that can be taught. It's something that you can advise and like, you know, try to help, but it's not something that you can teach somebody. It's something they have to figure out for themselves. So

01:01:08
I believe that the gatekeeping of the actual important information, like how to make sure that you're doing it safely and like where the good artistic references are from and how to get the nice needles, who makes the good machines. All of that shit is a waste of time to gatekeep because all it does is advantage the people in tattooing that come from advan- like advantages situations. Like people, it's tattooing is very like white and male centric. And even though there's a lot more room for everybody else in it.

01:01:38
it's still very white male centric. I still have people that are people of color that come to me that are like, oh, I've been told that I can't get color on my skin because it's too dark. Or I've been told that because my skin's texture is a certain type of way means that like the tattoos are gonna scar on me. One, it's a lie for the most part. If a dude sits out in the sun every single day his whole life, yeah, his skin's gonna be crazy. But like, I think certain information like that just should never be gate kept. Cause all it does is put.

01:02:05
people at a disadvantage at a more severe disadvantage. And it creates a system where you have a lot of people doing unsafe tattooing. And I think that that's a waste of energy and time. You don't get anywhere by putting those people down. As much as I hate home tattooing, because I think the potential for safety is a mess. I also love the idea that more people of color, more queer people, more disabled people are getting into tattooing and are like, fuck you, we're gonna do this ourselves because they've been pushed out of those spaces. So I just, I fucking hate gay keep going.

01:02:34
I think it's like the biggest waste of time. So that's definitely your biggest pet peeve then for sure. Yeah, it creates a system for bad tattoos where it doesn't need to be there. There's always gonna be bad tattooers. There's always gonna be stinkers. There's always gonna be people that hang around for three years and then quit because it's too much for them to handle. But what you can do is help people make good tattoos. The only reason I have a job is because of people helping me. Yeah, no, that's a great point.

01:03:00
I mean, people gatekeeping anything. Yeah, it's a waste of energy. It's not that serious. It's not that, oh, I'm gonna gatekeep this place where I buy this specific material from, or like this, whatever. You know what is serious? Your favorite Strongman lift. What is it? Stones. Atlas Stones, baby. All right, what's your least favorite? God, and Strongman? Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot. Probably farmers. Okay.

01:03:27
I am like just not good at it. I cannot hack it. My grip is just not very great. And so there are other things where like, I love sandbag carries. I love yoke carries. I love running with weight, but because my grip is just not as good as some other people's I have very small hands compared to my size. I've, I relate. So I relate. Farmers, farmers are really, really hard for me. Okay. And it's like, it's a love hate thing there. You know, I try it all the time and then I hate it every time. That's fair. You don't do it that. Yeah.

01:03:57
Well, what's one thing you always have in your fridge? Seltzer. Hell yeah. Me too. And when eating a meal, do you save the best thing for last or do you eat it first? Best for last always. I eat in like, like a compartmental fashion. Okay. I save my favorite thing for last too. Mm-hmm. Got to save it for last. You got to like build up the anticipation, you know, before you eat it. Ryan, you do that too? How do you eat? Not often, but like a cinnamon roll.

01:04:25
You know, I, Oh, a cinnamon roll. Not, not off. Are you saying you don't eat often? Or are you just saying not often you do this? Yeah, I'm saying I don't eat often, but when I do, it's a cinnamon roll. And when it's a cinnamon roll, I do save the center for the, you know, I eat it as a spiral, save the best for last. Hell yeah. Well, Jenna, can you tell the people where they can find you on the internet and some of the things that you do so that if they're interested, they're able to find you, my name is spelled with a G.

01:04:52
So it's just G-E-N-N-A and then M for Michelle and then Howard on Instagram. My TikTok is just Jenna Howard too, but that's it. That's the only social media I have. And then I have a Finsta for my lifting, but I won't give that out because that's something you gotta find on your own. Yeah, we won't tell. Well, I guess I'll just say it doesn't matter. It's buff tootin' baby, but it's an Adventure Time joke. And everybody's always like, why is your name that on your lifting instance? And I'm like, okay, one, buff baby, yes. Two, Adventure Time, obviously, duh.

01:05:21
I just recently found out the guy who does the voice of Finn had a band called Makeout Monday. Add that to the leeway playlist. Yeah, literally add that. And then what is it? The person, the woman who voices Marceline also makes music and is really good. I don't know what her name is offhand, but it's really good. It's the best show ever. Well Jenna, thank you so much for doing this today. It's been a real pleasure. Of course. I think it's again, super important to talk about this with.

01:05:50
as many people as possible to just spread awareness. And I just thank you for being a part of that and being an influence in my own life again. I'm so, so appreciative and so grateful for that. So thank you. Of course. All right, folks, that just about wraps up another episode of The Underwire. We wanna give a big thanks to Jenna for joining us today. And we certainly hope our talk about making choices around parenthood has shed some light on this important topic, leaving you feeling a bit more empowered.

01:06:18
Remember that everyone's path is different and life is all about making choices that are right for you, no matter how big or small. Sharing our stories about our bicep surgeries was all about helping you feel informed and supported. And if you have any personal stories pertaining to this topic that you would like to share, we would love to hear about that. And as always, we welcome any and all feedback or ideas that you may have so that we can take that into consideration for future episodes. Give us a follow and send us a DM on Instagram at

01:06:47
The Underwire Pod, all one word, no underscores, no weird spellings. Also, if you like this episode, please share it and give us a five star or thumbs up rating because that will really help us reach more listeners. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen, to be with us today. I can't tell you how much we appreciate it. We look forward to catching you on the next episode. See ya.