Episode 131: Empowering Neurodiverse Students: An Interview with Educational Therapist Jenny Drennan

In this episode of the 3E Podcast, host Dr. Almitra Berry interviews Jenny Drennan, an educational therapist and ADHD student coach who empowers students to become self-sufficient learners. Jenny guides students and parents in transferring responsibility and ownership, using educational therapy and coaching techniques to develop personalized success strategies. Jenny aims to nurture confident, self-aware learners who can self-advocate and navigate life's challenges. She also works to empower BIPOC families and address misconceptions about ADHD and learning differences. In this conversation, Jenny shares strategies for parents to advocate for their children, develop emotional regulation skills, and find ways to unlock their child's creativity and passions. This episode is a must-listen for any parent, teacher or caregiver looking to support neurodiverse students to thrive.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

If you're a parent, teacher or school leader and you're sick and tired of the frustration, anger and unfair treatment of children at high risk in our public schools, then perhaps it's time for all of us to do something about it. In this podcast, Dr amitra Berry brings you tips, tools, strategies and tactics to build successful solutions while touching, moving and inspiring all of us to transform our schools so that every child thrives. Here's your host, Dr Bay,

Dr Almitra Berry: 0:38

hey, there equity warriors. Today, I'd like to welcome Jenny Drennan to the 3e podcast. She is an educational therapist and ADHD student coach who aims to help students become self sufficient learners. But she also helps parents. She helps them reframe their perspectives on their child's behavior so that they can connect with them, better, collaborate with them and advocate for them. Now, personally, as the mother of what is now an add adult, I am excited to have this conversation with Jenny, and I'm probably going to wish I'd had it about 30 years ago. But Jenny, thanks for joining me today.

Unknown: 1:14

Thank you so much for having me. It's really nice to be here. So

Dr Almitra Berry: 1:18

I don't like to read people's bios, because I want to hear you tell your story. So can you tell us what inspired you to become one, to become an educational therapist? It's something that a lot of people may have never heard of, but specifically to be that ADHD student coach. Yeah, it's

Unknown: 1:36

okay. So very interesting. So I was actually born in El Salvador, and we moved here when I was two. So I grew up in a Spanish speaking household, went into as an English learner to school, learned how to speak English at school, and a lot of the time, you know, like language, like writing, was always pretty difficult for me, and I attributed it to just learning to learn and learning English still, right? Like, I'm still learning how to speak English and comprehension and all that. And yes, a part of that was true, but I also think there was something more under, beneath that. So I never paid attention in class, would go home and did well in school. But, you know, worked really hard in school, and come to find out, well, then I went into teaching, and through teaching, I met an educational therapist there, and I collaborated a lot with her to support a couple of her students that she was working with in my classroom at the time. So she really introduced me to this field, and then I decided to go into it, and fell in love with it. And, you know, in working with it, I was naturally drawn to the students who had ADHD, some of my resistance students, you know, they were a bit scattered, brilliant, creative, and, you know, went down a rabbit hole and learned everything there was about ADHD. And then I said, Wait, there's a lot of similarities here with self diagnosis there, yeah. And I said, you know, well, I should probably get checked out. You know, rule it out if it's not the case. Um, and because, you know, I was thinking, maybe I'm thinking I have this, because I've been working with kids for so long who have this. But yes, come to find out I do have it. And then looking back now, you know, as in a Spanish speaking household like this, ADHD, was something my mom parents did not know about. They always said I had ants in my pants that, you know, I was messy, scattered, whatever, you know, the words, the phrasings that they use, but never did it ever cross their minds, you know, to get evaluated, because they just did not know that it existed.

Dr Almitra Berry: 3:38

Yeah, yeah, wow. Well, congratulations for figuring out what it was and for being successful, even without a diagnosis and modifications early on. But I can just imagine what that struggle was like. Of course, you know, you know, but a lot of folks listening may not know that ADHD and ADD are not the same. They don't appear exactly the same in every child. It's like there's degrees of intensity, so to speak. Yeah, and I remember my my son's therapist telling me that it's not that he cannot concentrate, it's that he concentrates on everything so it makes it difficult for him to do exactly what the teacher may want him to do. So I wish I'd had a you about third. How old is that kid? He's not a kid, but I'm saying about third, 2829 years ago, it would have night, would have been really nice for me to have a new because we we literally did it the hard way, with me trying to figure it out all on my own, yeah. How is this what you do? How is it different from, you know, what people might think of as a being a traditional counselor or a tutor for a child who is neuro diverse? Great

Unknown: 4:56

question. So we, I blend. I have a very small practice. We. And educational therapy techniques with ADHD student coaching techniques. And what that means is, with educational therapy, we use specialized interventions and assessments to really support the students. So a child who has dyslexia, we can support them with Orton Gillingham, a child who has dysgraphia, will need, you know, more interventions to create a more structured approach to their writing and organize their thoughts and express themselves. So we, you know, that's like the teaching, the learning aspect of it, right along with that, though, because we do specialize in ADHD, we do a lot of coaching techniques, and so coaching is different from teaching, because in teaching, you're telling the student what to do, you know, you're doing much more directive right? Modeling for them with ADHD coaching, we are asking a lot of open ended questions. So our goal is to really fire up their problem solving skills. Right? The brain matures and develops a neurons that it uses, and so we want it to develop and mature these problem solving neurons, right? And so that is why we are asking questions. Because these kids know these solutions. They have the answers to everything, but we just need to bring it out of them, right? And so unfortunately, because you know, our world is fast paced, we're always in a rush where we know we're very low on patients, we tend to do things for them, right? So rather than you know, you know, if a student, for example, doesn't turn in their homework on time, we're constantly reminding them, did you turn in your homework? Did you turn in Did you email your teacher, you know, rather than asking them an open question to help them figure out, how are they going to remember to begin to turn in their homework independently? So that is kind of the blend that we do here. So yes, I think it's a really in it. This is why we begin coaching around middle school, because that is really when it's it's favorable to the student. Their prefrontal cortex is really developing around that time, and so that is when it starts doing less directive. They're also resisting a lot more, right? So they're going to push back a lot more on adult support around that time, so it's the perfect time to help them become more independent.

Dr Almitra Berry: 7:07

Yeah, not long ago, I did a show with someone whose expertise lied in that middle school age, right? And parenting those tweens. And, you know, I always think back, you know, we always sort of ground ourselves in our own experiences as parents, especially when we're educators and parents, you know, we have that that group that we educate all the time, so we kind of know what to expect from our children when they get to that stage. But also just looking at our children developmentally, and those tween years at middle school where, you know, the brain is being pruned there. You know, I like to try and use parent words. It's like they're pruning the trees and the kids brain, right? So stuff's just not connecting. Things aren't touching the way that they used to. Yes, they really are losing their minds. You know, we are medical Yeah, and a medical Yeah, along with us losing ours. But there's, a really good reason for it, I think, is what a lot of parents need to hear. You mentioned dysgraphia dyslexia, along with ADD and ADHD, maybe for a quick primer for parents, maybe like even your own parents, who did not know that there was this thing or that it existed, how would you most easily describe to a parent what to look for or expect, maybe some telltale signs that their child might have ADD or add HD, ADD or ADHD? Yeah,

Unknown: 8:35

so yes, there. There's three types of ad HDS, right and right now the DSM five is classifying them all under ADHD. And so one of them will be the hyperactive type, you know, where you see the child who is a little more energetic. The other one will be the inattentive type. So the one where this was, you know, I had a blend of both, but the inattentive type is the one that can seem like they're paying attention, but they're lost in thought. They're in their own old world somewhere else. And then there's the combined pipe, so both of them mixed together. And so teachers, right? No Fault to teachers, because teachers are not trained in this, right? But we, because teachers are spending a lot of time, we're relying on teachers to kind of tell us, you know, what's going on with the child, if they're noticing anything. Unfortunately, the one that gets diagnosed, you know, at an early age the most is the one that's hyperactive, right? Because that is the one who where we can physically see the child, you know, bouncing off the wall, exactly, and so, you know. And it also tends to lean much more towards diagnosing boys, because boys are the ones who tend to show this more. That's not to say, though, that girls don't have, you know, very similar percentages of diagnosis. They're just, they just go under the radar a lot more, because girls tend to want to please their teacher. You know, they're looking, they're much more. They're trying to match social norms. They're looking to see what everyone else is. Doing they know how to present themselves, right? And so, you know, girls will be misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. So first thing I tell parents is, you know, we want to notice, is your child struggling to learn right? Like, you know, we want to rule out if there's a learning difference, like, are they beginning to avoid school, avoid doing homework? Do we see that their grades are failing, or that they're having trouble grasping the new concepts in class? Are we seeing teacher comments in class are very often related to, you know, they they have more potential, they're not working to their full capacity. Those are very telltale signs that whenever I see that in a progress report where the teacher says they're not working to their capacity, or they can do more. They're just choosing not to those are some, you know, key words that tell me there's something here that we need to look at. Because fundamentally, I do think that we all always want to do our best, right, especially these little kids that are young, and you know, they want to please adults, and so when I hear that they're not working towards their full capacity or potential, I do think that they are right. It's just not it's not seen like we're not seeing their struggles, what they're going through to get to that quality level of work. I also people students who are scattered, disorganized, have a lot of trouble with transitions. I'd say, if a parent is really thinking, you know, in our gut, we always know that there's something going on, right? So I think if you have it in your gut, or if you suspect that your child may have, you know need some further evaluation. Chat with your teacher. Notice their observations really take into consideration what they're noticing. Talk to a pediatrician as well or a psychiatrist. There are lots of tests online too, like attitude magazine understood. Have a couple where parents can go on and fill out a questionnaire just to kind of screen things, but yes, I'd say start there. It's really chatting with the teacher and understanding what it is, but also educating ourselves as to what truly is ADHD and how does it represent itself. Do you find?

Dr Almitra Berry: 12:15

Do you find that it goes undiagnosed or unreferred by teachers more frequently in communities of color and in schools where you have more marginalized learners,

Unknown: 14:03

yes. So the research shows that unfortunately, in the BiPAP community, students who may have ADHD are treated much more for behavioral symptoms, right? So misconduct and so that rather than treating the underlying issue, which is the ADHD, we're just treating much more the behavior of this child. And so they are put on behavioral management plans, etc, versus, you know, getting the child evaluation, the right interventions, the appropriate support to help this this child manage their ADHD and understand themselves. What we see a lot is, you know, in the bipoc community, again, they're asked to get out of class, right, leave the class. They're, you know, they're, they're, grades start to fail, and they're not. There's no sense, like the No sense of curiosity in that, right? They're, they're automatically labeled as inappropriate behavior or misconduct, versus really trying to get underneath as to what, what could be going on for this child.

Dr Almitra Berry: 15:04

That is, thank you. Enlightening and frustrating. Very frustrating that, yeah, because I, you know, I see the numbers all the time how boys of color, particularly black and brown boys, are disciplined disproportionate to their white peers, for the same types of behaviors. So we know that there's already some built in systemic racism and bias in our school system, but when we're sending them out of the class, then you know, they're not being educated, and we're not diagnosing them, and it's sort of, we're creating a future for the we are damaging the children's futures by not recognizing that we need to be referring them for evaluation, not sending them off for for behavior issues.

Unknown: 15:52

Yeah, they're being punished for their you know, their diagnosis, what it should could be their diagnosis. In addition, in the black and brown communities, right, Adversity is really valued, and so we don't want to be seen as someone who is being weak or someone who needs the extra help. Medication is also really stigmatized in our communities. And so you know, even when you know there isn't this underlying notion that, you know, the child does not need medication, that they will be able to outgrow this, that they weren't raised with my kid, yeah, right. I wasn't raised in this way. I just had a firmer hand and was able to, you know, I made it. So I think there's a lot of you. Know, a lot of work that we still need to do to share this information with our families in the black and brown communities. Yeah,

Dr Almitra Berry: 16:41

I think even with girls in general, and even more so with Latinas, that they're taught to be a little more complacent, and that starts at birth. So even if there is a diagnosis to be had, it's going to be masked because we've like overly socialized them to be quiet, be compliant, don't speak out, don't antagonize. You know, all of these, these behavioral expectations that again, we're then just creating children who go undiagnosed or not receiving the treatment and support that they should have. What would you say to any and every parent listening who may be thinking, maybe that is my kid, what would you say to them? Should be the first thing that they should do. How do they how do they even begin to advocate for their child? Where, if it's gone overlooked or dismissed by teachers? Let's say

Unknown: 17:35

yes. So okay, there's lots of ways we can start, but I would say first, we want to start writing down what you're noticing, right? Very fact, factual based. I'm noticing that they have trouble getting out of bed every morning. I'm I'm giving them several reminders a day, if it's with a learning difference, notice their how much work, how much support you're doing to help your child, like get done with their homework, complete their homework. How long is it taking them to complete their homework? You know, just because they're make completing it in two hours, but their same age peers completing it in 30 minutes? That's something we want to know, right? That's not, it's not common. It's not It's unusual. We also want to know teacher report cards. Then if we do think, okay, there's, you know, get curious. We also want to learn about these diagnosis right? What is ADHD and how does it represent itself? What's dyslexia? Then we do want to speak, seek a clinician support. And again, in the black and brown communities, there aren't a lot of clinicians who look like us, right? And so there's a lot of mistrust there as well. Are they going to understand my child and see them for who they are? Will they understand the car cultural context, right and ask the appropriate questions to truly diagnose this child appropriately? So there's good news is there are clinicians out there. We just need to really kind of dig through and find some. But there are lots of sites as well who kind of list clinicians who we can go to, and I have some as well. If anyone, if any of anyone in your audience, wants to reach out, I'm happy to partner them with another clinician who can assess them. So I think that would be the next step. Right is Okay, speaking with the teacher, the support team. Maybe there's a learning specialist at the school who we can share with them. Hey, this is what I'm noticing. What are you guys observing in the classroom? Do you feel like there's a need for an evaluation here? Oftentimes the school will disagree with the parent. We don't see these challenges in the classroom, right? And that may be the case. It may be they really don't see it. It may be that they're attributing it to behavior again, or something else, or the child is holding it in so tightly together in the class that when they get home, they just kind of let go and they're free to be themselves, right? So the teacher isn't noticing it as much in the classroom. But again, if there's a gut feeling that something is there that you feel like needs to be evaluated or at least ruled out. I would say, speak with a clinician,

Dr Almitra Berry: 20:04

okay, and demand it. Right? Yes, yeah,

Unknown: 20:08

yes. Because oftentimes they will say, we don't. You know, no no, no reason to, but you know your child better than anyone else, and as an active parent, you can make such a tremendous difference in your child's life just by being active, asking questions, not giving up if you really think there's something there, so that your child can really get the interventions that they need. Yeah,

Dr Almitra Berry: 20:31

and I think it's really important for parents to understand that you your child is entitled to receive those accommodations and so that add is ADHD is not special education, right? That they will get a 504 plan, but you need to really, really demand it. I thought, you know, as you were talking, things started turning in my head. Or I remember when in meeting with my son's teachers, when one teacher just wanted to dismiss him and just say, Well, you know, he's just one of those boys, those boys, yeah, those boys. And I said, which boys would be those boys? I was like, she had not met this mother before, and we had, let's just say that she got every bit of my academic energy that could be funneled her way. She did not she had no cultural competence. She did not understand black and brown children, and was very dismissive of all black and brown boys and. Her classroom. And so it was really frustrating. So I know that the few that are that way are few. Some of it comes from ignorance or naivete, but yes, some of it does also come from from bias. And whether that bias is just, you know, deep seated and they don't understand it, they don't recognize they have it, or if it's conscious bias, and you're doing it on purpose, as a parent, you've got to be the biggest advocate for your child that's out there,

Unknown: 22:04

yeah, because the negative effects, right? The consequence, if this support isn't if they don't get the interventions, if they don't get the proper support that they need, is tremendous, like they start to label themselves. Their self esteem goes down. They they start calling themselves stupid. I'm incapable. I don't amount to anything. Why even try and so it's, you know, they're they go deeper and deeper into the their challenges, rather than how beautiful would it be to get the proper diagnosis, the interventions, to understand themselves, and then to learn some strategies to help them manage their ADHD, right? I also want to note with a lot of you know, the black and brown community and all parents really, accommodations are not here to make it easier. The assignment will not get easier for your child. What it really does, it just levels out the playing field for them, right? To help them get to complete access the assignment truly. So as an example, an accommodation could be usually, students who have ADHD have slower processing speeds. They need more time to complete assignments and so on a test, rather than rushing through a test, they may be able to get 50% time longer on the test, right? So again, we're not we're not modifying the assignment and making it easier for them. We're helping them access the assignment, right?

Dr Almitra Berry: 23:24

And that's why we call it an accommodation, right? It's really to accommodate who they are and how they learn and how they can demonstrate their learning. So whether it's more time, it may be that they need a quiet space or quieter space to complete an assignment, or they need access to different resources, or just a different way to show that they know, right? So I think again, if my son ever listened to my podcast routinely, he'd probably be a little upset about how often I use him as an example, but he's, he's, he was always a very creative child, and so he would, I mean, he could sit down and write a short story in no time, or draft a poem or or a piece of music, but that wasn't how his teachers were looking for responses, right? He had to have, he had to have a way to show that he knew which he knew he understood, and he could, he could tell you all about it, but it just wasn't always in the way that teachers want it demonstrated. So parents have to be, you know, you may have to demand, but definitely advocate for your child and say, you know, I want his 504 or her 504 to reflect whatever it is, more time, a quiet space, no group work or more group work or alternate ways of showing how they know. And it's just so important, it doesn't get easier. And even at home, you know, we have to think about, how do we accommodate? And if you have multiple children, each child may be learning a different way, right? So, how do you accommodate your your different children? I know with my son, I used to take him, he couldn't do homework after school. It just was, you know, he was just done toasted. So he would get up with me in the morning and go with me to my classroom, which was not at his school, but in that quiet, very quiet space for an hour or so while I was doing my thing and he was waiting for his bus to come, he could get everything done, knocked out in no time flat, and did brilliant work. But it was, you know, so what time of day? Maybe even for home.

Unknown: 25:18

Yeah, exactly. I think for parents too, we want to notice what, when is it working? When are things easier? What are the patterns that we're noticing? Right? And you brought up such a great point, because, you know, I do think people with ADHD, right, we have a very creative mind. When we find our passion, we just break through, right? And so unfortunately, how frustrating right is it to go through all of our school years without having the privilege of choosing what we want to learn, how we want to show our learning and the classes and boredom is the kryptonite of ADHD. And so I do think, you know, we just need to get them through high school after high school, and they have more options. And, you know, pursuing truly what their passions are. These kids are incredible. They really go off to do some amazing things. We just need to fuel their passion. So I think in school, if a parent is listening and they suspect, you know, or their child has ADHD, look at what they're good at, what they enjoy doing, what their passions are, and feed into that that is going to change your child. Then let's not think so much. We're coming from an asset based approach, right? Let's not think so much about what are their deficits and what are their challenges? Let's focus much more on what they're doing well, what they. Enjoy doing and continue fueling that, because that's going to build focus, emotional regulation, emotional control, management, right, organization, planning, all of the executive function skills that kiddos with ADHD truly need help developing they're behind in their peers developing, but if we can find a task that they enjoy all of those neurons. Those neurons are being strained there. So when it is time to actually work on something else, they're going to have those neurons there. We can need to generalize them into different types of assignments, right? First, we just need to develop them. Yes,

Dr Almitra Berry: 27:11

develop them and emotional regulation. You just mentioned that I had a note to ask you about that. So how do parents or what role, let me go this way. What role does emotional regulation play in a student being academically successful when they have ADHD and and, you know, those are skills that need to be developed. Developed. How do we go about developing them?

Unknown: 27:35

Yeah, so it's so in my on my website, I have five ways that parents can develop these skills organically, without their child noticing. But I do want to look at the whole child, right? One thing we really want to look at is their sleep. Are they getting enough sleep? Because if they're not getting enough sleep automatically, the child's, you know, they're the part of the brain that helps them control and manage themselves is going to be impacted, right? We also want to look at, okay, so we also want to think, okay, flexibility. This is where we want to develop, right? So flexibility, we can play board games with them, help them to reframe perspectives. A lot of times they're really, you know, transitions are really hard for these kiddos who have ADHD. So we also, anytime I'd say a child shows that they're being flexible, we want to acknowledge it. Hey, you know, I noticed that this time when I picked you up from school and told you I we needed to go to Target. You didn't, you know you were okay with it. I really appreciate that, right? So notice everything that they're doing. Oh, I noticed that you didn't choose. You didn't ask me for the blue cup this time. Thank you for being so flexible. And they put a word to it, like, acknowledge the flexibility there. So that's much more with little, because sports is an excellent way to develop executive function skills and flexibility, right? So bring up some of that energy, yes, and truly, after a sport again, right after the heart rate is up and moving, it's a great time for them to do their homework, because it mimics the stimulants medication, right? That's something we always tell parents. But yes, sports is another excellent way. And then, and I think with emotional regulation, now I think this goes for any age group. If we really want to label what we're noticing they're feeling, I'm noticing you're getting really frustrated doing your homework. Oftentimes these kids are not even aware of how they're presenting themselves, and they need us to hold up that mirror for them. So I think we need to label it validate how they're feeling. You know, I know this homework is really hard. I remember when I used to do this type of work, I used to get really frustrating too, and Bonnie give up and then ask if they need your support, or what they would like of you. From you.

Dr Almitra Berry: 29:47

Yeah. So I know I mentioned one that, you know this, this idea that what I was told for my son was that doesn't mean he can't pay attention. It means he attends to everything. So I'm guessing that there are a number of maybe misconceptions about ADHD and learning differences, especially in bipoc communities. What can you share with us, maybe to help folks get over that? Or what are some of the misconceptions? Let's start with that.

Unknown: 30:19

Okay, so yes, that they don't listen, that we don't listen right, that we are purposely doing these things, that, you know, we're lazy. Lazy is a big one that I just told you, why can't you just remember to do it right? I literally just told you so, and then I think it's really frustrating, also for a parent, if they have excellent executive function skills, and the child has the complete opposite, I think that's really frustrating because they don't truly understand you know that the child is truly struggling here, but with ADHD, what I always tell parents, it's an abundance of attention, just like your therapist said, Right? They're paying attention to too much, and they're having trouble managing their attention, right? So we need to figure out, first, we need to raise awareness to this for the child, so that they understand what's going on for them. I think it's really important for children and teens to understand what they're going through, tying like, feeling like there's being seen, that they they have words that you know, they can anchor down how they're feeling and what they're going through helps them to figure out how they're going to manage themselves, rather than labeling themselves stupid or lazy or dumb, right? So I think that's really important for us to do with them. It's raise their self awareness. But I think we also need to get curious as to what works for this child. If we know that this child needs more breaks, embed more breaks, right? If we know that this child, you know if they got to move their body, that's that. That means their body literally needs to expend some energy. So let's help them to move their body and get some energy out so that then they can come back and stay tuned to the task, right? Most of the children are not purposely trying to ignore us, right? So sure they are. I think a lot of times it's really frustrating for parents like I just told you, why didn't you do it when I asked you where you needed this is my fifth reminder. You know, working memory is a big part of ADHD working memory. I like to tell parents, it is their mental post it note. And once that mental post it note is full, things are going to fall off the post it note, you know. And so with these kiddos, it's like they might have heard you but then it fell off their post it note so they don't remember it anymore. So how can we support them to remember it? So

Dr Almitra Berry: 32:39

as you say that, I think about one of the tools that I learned to use with my son, because definitely his middle post it note was full after three items. And yeah, I didn't use that language, but I knew if I give him more than three things to do, it's not going to happen. The other thing that I recognized was I had to get him to acknowledge what each of those were, right. So I would say, hey, Stephen, there are. And I mean, for people on audio can't see this, I would raise three fingers if there are three things that you need to do today, number one. And with one finger, I would tell him, number one, when you get home, you need to make up your bed. Two, you need to take the dog for a walk. And three, you need to make yourself a snack. Now, what's the first thing you need to do? And I'd still with the fingers, and so he would I would teach him, show me on your finger, and he would raise the one finger and say, make my bed. And what's number two, take tank for a walk. And number three, make myself a snack. Okay? And then I'd ask him again, what are you going to do when you get home from school? And then he could do it one, two and three. And while it seemed laborious, and that was at a very young age, because he was, we recognized what it was when he was, like three or four, but didn't get a formal evaluation until he was in second grade. So we just, we learned how to do these things, and then as he got older, you know, we could scaffold some of it back, but it did make a difference in my own sanity and whether or not he was going to live his life grounded or not. That there. We just had to find that way to make it work for him. I like the term a mental post it, right? Yeah, we know it. We have this good visual for, you know, a mental post it note.

Unknown: 34:20

I think what's so key here, what you said, right, is we want the brain to be actively engaged with the information that they're hearing. So rather than being passive, right, you were using your fingers, right? So, like, motor control to help your child, and verbally saying it out loud and he was hearing it, so his brain was stimulated in very different areas. Visuals are also really helpful. So, you know, writing the three steps down for them, helping them to repeat it or rephrase it for you again, we want them to kind of challenge themselves with what they're hearing. So rephrasing, it is an excellent tool, if also eye contact, right? If the child is watching TV, they'll say, Yes, I heard you. They did not hear you. You know, yes, yes, yes. Or they could be looking at you, if your child's the inattentive type, and just be nodding and then have no idea what you just said to them.

Dr Almitra Berry: 35:16

Yeah, you know, I'm thinking too, of course, with given my and my son's age, this was before cell phones, and I'm thinking, All kids have your so many children smartphones now that you know we should, we can text them. There's the reminders list in our phones. So there's so many more tools as ways to preserve your sanity as a parent while still coming down. I don't know. I'm going to look at you and say, Is that a good thing to have a reminders list, and you know, in their phone where you can text and have them confirm to you, I still ask my son to acknowledge when I send a text, because it's like I can see you read it, but did it register? So yeah, and a text message. When I want an answer, I wind it all capital letters, acknowledge. So he will then answer back. Otherwise, it's like, three weeks later, it's like, are you alive? I know you read the message. Yes.

Unknown: 36:09

Emails, they will probably not read I'll just say that right now. So we're seeing a lot of schools, you know, again, accommodate for them. So we're seeing a lot more schools begin to text again. Texting is still something that we're working on, because they read the text and then they don't respond or did. What was the need that she wasn't asking a question, so why they need to respond to it? Right? But what to your point of the phone? So I think the phone is a great tool, right? Just. All technology is but it can also have its drawbacks. So for example, social media, we're seeing of a lot, again, the dopamine that's released through social media online. You know, everything that our kids were seeing their hours after school really be captivated and consumed by social media. So that's something, you know, we're being weary of but yes, if it works for the child, it works, right? So let's stick to what works. Every student is different. We have a college student who does not like using reminders because he doesn't like like he likes to be able to plan when the reminders are going to come in, and then the list just gets too long, you know. So it doesn't work for him. We have another student who likes Google Tasks, another one that only uses Google Calendar and will put everything as an event. So it really depends on the student. And I think what's really important is we go with what they like, what's working for them, and then through working together with them, right as they mature and as they evolve in their schooling, they will either choose a different strategy or adjust this strategy, or figure out what works and what doesn't work for them, right? And so they will make it their own, but if they will find things that work for them, I think that's really important. Okay,

Dr Almitra Berry: 37:51

I don't know if this falls into your area, but medication, and I know that. You know, for me as a parent, it was like the last thing I wanted to do. So I tried the diet, I tried everything holistic that I could, because I really just did not want to put, you know, and at that point back then, the only choice was Ritalin. And having, you know, as a classroom teacher, I had kids that were on Ritalin, and I could see that, you know, that that sort of medication curve when it kicked in, and they were great, but then as it wore off and the behavior started to come back, it was almost like a rebound effect. It was even worse, and that was the last thing I wanted to do to my child. What do you say to parents where maybe medication should be considered? Yeah, and there's some

Unknown: 38:36

medication I think, is really hard, right? Because a lot of families have a lot of strong, like, strong feelings towards it. So I'm not the expert here. I'll just say that, but I can tell you what the research shows. And you know, I know we have, we all want something holistic, right? It would be better if we did with holistic treatment. I think what's really important is parent management training. So, you know, our kids need a different approach. So how do we you know, conversation, tools, techniques that we can use with your child who has ADHD would be super important. I think we start there, coaching the student as well, once they get to, like, a good grade level around sixth grade is really important. That isn't parent necessarily, because if they hear it differently when it comes from a third party, also if, if your child has ADHD, I would also consider getting a parent evaluated for ADHD as well, because more likely than not, someone else in the family has it. And if you're struggling yourself to manage your own ADHD, it's going to impact your child's management as well, right? So we need to take care of ourselves first, and then we can take care of others. So I think that's also important. And then with medication, though, you know, for let's say, you know, we try the holistic, the exercise, you know, the nutrition, the sleep, the diet, you know, all of this stuff. It takes longer, I'm not gonna lie. It takes longer for, you know, for us to start seeing the effects of all of this. And it's not going to be to the extent that medication probably would, right? And what happens during that time, whether, you know, if we don't do the medication, or we don't do all these holistic treatments, and we think that they will just outgrow this. The child's self esteem will be impacted. Children like this have more are more likely to become addicted to something because they need to cope and get rid of their stress in different ways. You know, they're sexual, much more active. They're taking greater risks. They don't understand themselves, right? So there's a lot that goes on here that I think we need to really be mindful of and think about, do the pros, at least the cons here?

Dr Almitra Berry: 40:47

Yeah, well, I didn't know the the other addiction and sexual activity part of it. And as you know, I think of as we're talking about kids in their tweens, those middle schoolers whose brains are being pruned and they've lost their minds to have that layered on top of yeah, it's just really sort of increasing the number of risks that that child might might be taking

Unknown: 41:12

depression anxiety are also go up because it's not being treated, right? And so they start seeing other things, I think, also in the pre teen years and teen years, like you said, the brain is pruning during this time, though the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that controls emotions, is on a fire. It is over stimulated, and the part that helps them run. Regulate themselves is under developed. So they have the perfect storm here where, you know, they have an overactive emotional part of the brain region and an underactive part that helps them to kind of think logically and regulate themselves. And if they're pruning during these years, right, we really want to be mindful of what they're experiencing, so that we prune the right neurons that we want them to carry to your head.

Dr Almitra Berry: 41:59

Yeah, you know, teachers, we would say, all hormones. No, was it all hormones? No control. And then, whose idea was it to put all of these, all of these kids at that stage in a school called Middle School,

Unknown: 42:14

right? And now it's starting at age eight. Research shows that cognitively, it's starting at age eight. Yes, wow.

Dr Almitra Berry: 42:22

So I want to clarify that we've been talking about brain pruning for and understanding for, for lay people, for parents who may not be familiar with our our language that we use on the special education side. Or when I would talk to parents about that, I would say, I want you to think about your child's brain being like a field that has had some traffic through it, right? There are pathways through it. They've you've always taken the same shortcut through that field. People have driven their cars or tractors through that field, and so those pathways are there, but all of a sudden nobody goes there for a minute, and the pathways all get overgrown, right? So with that pruning, what's happening is that people are starting to walk that path again. So you can find the path because somebody's been there before, right? So there's a clear path through the field again. But it takes time for that path, for those plants to get worn down to where you're at dirt, and that's a clear concrete path through the same way every single time. And so when we're talking about the brain pruning, and what's happening that literally is what we're talking about a field that's gotten overgrown, and that new pathways have to be laid down so we can see which route we're going to take. And now, after all of this stuff that's sort of frustrating and depressing, as a parent, can you give us a success story, something good that comes from you've seen happen? You know, we all, we all like a good success story. So yes, give us one that a parent can can hook on to and say, okay, that can happen for me and my child.

Unknown: 43:54

Oh, there's so many. I'm just thinking of the kids right now that we're supporting, but I you know, we see kids come in and they hate school. They're failing school. They will say, I don't want to go to school. I don't think I can do this. I'm done. I want an outright or kids who have come to us and they are suicidal, suicidal obviation, they've been hospitalized again because they've just experienced so much failure, and they do not understand what you know, I'm trying my best, and I am still not meeting, you know, the expectations here and with you know, I think, babe, we've had a student who's been on academic probation In college, who, you know, was being felt like he needed to be in the business school and working with him, you know, we, we were like thinking, This isn't business, you know, we get it. This is a safe option. What do you truly like and what comes easy? And we started to point these things out. He switched his major. He's now in creative writing. And, you know, he got straight A's 4.0 is now getting an internship, you know, advocating for himself, checking his emails like he's just independent, completely independent from the child who we got when we first, when we first started working with him. Mom. No Fault to mom, but she was coming in as writing emails as him, because he was struggling so much to check his emails, you know, so to come from, you know, where mom was really heavily involved and he didn't think he was going to make it his freshman year of high school to now, him being on the honor roll system is just truly incredible, like, it's amazing.

Dr Almitra Berry: 45:33

That's wonderful. I love a good I love a good feel good story. And I think that is something especially once they find their passion, right? That takes some take some time and work. We have to put ourselves as parents, put our desires aside and really find out what it is that they want to do, what excites them, what energizes them, and then that makes everything else better. I think

Unknown: 45:56

that's such key here, for them to feel accepted in their, you know, accepted for who they are, and then for the parents to really nourish that, you know, the parents, his parents, were very open to all strategies, feedback, and were willing to work with us. And, you know, they they noticed the change. It was really fun, wonderful.

Dr Almitra Berry: 46:16

Sounds like construction in your neighborhood. I have one last question for and I ask every guest the same question. Dr Angela Davis once said that I'm changing the things I cannot accept. I'm changing the things I cannot accept. So what's something that you cannot accept? And then how can listeners? Parents? Teachers. Maybe the students themselves help support change there.

Unknown: 46:39

So I think it's us thinking we can fix children. We can fix students. We're not here to fix anything. Right? These kids are wired the way that they're wired in it. Just because, you know, they present themselves differently in the classroom than the majority of the classroom does not mean something's wrong with them, or that we're here to fix them, or that they need behavioral support, right? I think what's really important is, you know, doing the work that we're doing, we need to educate our educators on what ADHD looks like and learning differences. Because I can tell you, as a teacher, I was never educated on this until I decided to take extra courses in sped, Ed, in ADHD, then did I really understand what it was? But, you know, I'm guilty myself of seeing a lot of kids go now, I look back and I think, oh my gosh, I'm they were undiagnosed, or I missed them, or, you know, I was that teacher, and so I can empathize with them at the same time, I think we are now in 2024 social media technology. We must educate our teachers. We need to do a better job of this, because it's not their fault,

Dr Almitra Berry: 47:47

right? So do you have to have YouTube channel or Tiktok or something where you put those little snippets out?

Unknown: 47:56

Yeah. So we have a free Facebook parent group where we go live every tuesday at noon, and we talk about a question that a parent has to come up for about 2025, minutes. And then on YouTube, we'll have the top questions parents have asked, and all the answers are under two minutes. So I welcome your families to check it out.

Dr Almitra Berry: 48:15

Wow. Okay, so we're going to make sure that we have that link to the Facebook group down in the notes. Jenny, thank you so much for joining me today. I don't wish I had to parent all over again. I just wish I had had the information and the strategies that you're offering for parents. 30 years ago, we do the

Unknown: 48:34

best we can do. We do the best that we can do.

Dr Almitra Berry: 48:38

We have yes helping some parents now to paint their kids with Jenny's information so equity warriors, make sure you check that out, empower those voices in your community. You know, I always tell you, share this episode with another parent, a teacher, a caregiver, someone who may be caring for or teaching a child that has ADHD and perhaps it's not diagnosed. And then make sure that you join or go check out Jenny's website. We're going to Facebook group. We're going to put that information down in the notes, because we want to make sure that we're doing everything we can to be sure that every single child has the opportunity to be successful in class, so share the episodes, start a conversation, be the change maker that needs to be made for your community, because your actions shape equity for all children. And then join me again next episode, we're back. I'm not sure what we're doing next week, so I guess I can't tell you, but if you've got a question, a topic, something you'd like to have covered, or special request, you know that you can text that to me. That link is down in the notes as well. And then remember, don't worry about the things you cannot change. Change the things you can no longer accept. And that's a wrap for today's episode of the 3e podcast. Now here's how you can make a real difference. First, smash that subscribe button. It's free. It's easy, just do it. Second, share the show with anyone you know who cares about education. And third, consider becoming a supporter of the show. Together, we're not just talking about change, we're making it happen. Make a donation today to be part of that mission and change, and I'll catch you next time you.