FlexBeam: Upgraded Health & Athletics Spot Treatments! (2024)

In this podcast, I interview the CEO and co-founder of Recharge Health, Dr. Bjorn Ekberg.

The FlexBeam red light therapy product by Recharge Health is popular. Dr. Bjorn Ekberg has a PhD in the philosophy of science and has written many books on physics and cosmology. His career led him to explore the captivating world of red light therapy.

We’ll discuss the FlexBeam product and the fascinating world of red light therapy. Navigate the complexities of optimizing red light therapy as we dive into continuous versus pulsed light settings, effective power output, and the vital importance of consistency. Dr. Ekberg sheds light on practical tips for integrating red light therapy into your everyday routine, ensuring you don’t just start but stick to it. Whether you’re an athlete seeking recovery benefits or someone looking for relief from chronic pain, this discussion provides a roadmap to maximizing the effectiveness of red light therapy.

 ✅ Dr Bjørn Ekeberg’s website: https://www.drbjorn.com/

 ✅ Grab a FlexBeam here: https://aferg.co/flexbeam - discount code ALEX saves 

Thanks for listening!

Disclaimer: Information shared is not medical advice.

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Transcript

Alex Fergus: 0:00

So today I sit down with the CEO and co-founder of Recharge Health, dr Bjorn Ekberg. Now, recharge Health are well known for their FlexVim red light therapy product, and Bjorn himself is a very smart individual. He has a PhD in the philosophy of science. He's written numerous books on physics and cosmology, but his career path led him into this fascinating world of red light therapy. Now I literally bumped into Bjorn at the recent 2024 health optimization Summit in London, uk.

Alex Fergus: 0:34

I'm so glad we made up, because the flex beam is a product that I'm often asked about and actually, until we did this interview, I'd never really looked at. So let's get into the interview. It's quite fascinating. Not only do we take a deep dive into the world of flex beam and that product, but we also look at the red light therapy space as a whole, so I hope you enjoy it beyond. It's awesome to meet in person. I know this has been a long time coming, so I'm excited to not only meet you and learn a bit about you and your company, but of, of course, have a play with the Flixbeam. A lot of people have asked me about this and until now until literally right now I've never touched one and I don't actually know too much about you or the company. So first up, tell me the background. How did you personally get into red light therapy?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 1:20

Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's great to be here. If meet you, I will follow your channel and we know how much you've been studying and going in depth from red light therapy. I was part of co-founding a company about five years ago. We're called recharge health and we have this sort of hairy, ambitious goal that we want to take this power of infrared and red light therapy mainstream or like to actually make a device that's so easy for people to use at home so they don't need to have panels in their basement or any of these kinds of things to try to move it out of the current current demographic um that's mostly using it, and so we launched this device so we can talk more about and I'll I'll tell you more.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 2:00

Um, I came into this a little bit somewhat random. I knew two of the co-founders. They were hardware experts in Asia. Like they were Eurokeens but based in Asia. They developed solar cell panels and all kinds of things for Eurokeen companies and they had come across the research that I know a lot of your listeners and watchers also come across.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 2:22

That's like all of the photovoltaic modulation background, and they were amazed and they showed me, uh, when they had this idea that they could create a product, and I was similarly amazed um, because I didn't know any of the stuff before and I was wondering why have we not heard about this before? Why is this such a like? Yeah, I mean five, six years ago there was even less of it than it is now, and quickly realized that then, that the reason we haven't heard about it in a wider setting, in a more of a mainstream setting, is because we don't yet have a device that is so easy to use or so irresistible and self-explanatory that's being widely adopted. It is a big buzz here and you know health optimization, biohacking and so on. It's got a big buzz here in health optimization, biohacking and so on, but it's got a way to go in order to make it into becoming the definitive thing.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 3:12

So that intrigued me a lot, because part of my background is philosophy of science. I've written a book on physics and cosmology from a philosophy perspective and I regularly debate here in the UK philosophy testables, and so I had a very different kind of background, but when I remarked about this I could really appreciate the kind of paradigm shift that I think we're in the middle of, that this, for me, is more than about one specific device or selling FlexBeam in this case. It's also about getting a broader message about how we can reframe our own understanding of health, and I think that's implicit when you are interested in red light therapy is that it's also a little bit of a shit for how we have been raised to think about our bodies and health and and all of this, and I'm sure you you do a fair bit of education on this as well and encountering the.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 4:04

How is it possible that light can have this effect on the body?

Alex Fergus: 4:07

so I found that to be fascinating and I I joined the ride five years ago and uh yeah, here we are the company you're based in norway yeah, we're, they weren't a reaching company yeah, well, and the product is made in china uh no, it's made in thailand a lot, and so we went our own route.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 4:25

Because of two of my co-founders' expertise, we were able to sort of bypass the Chinese factories and really do something ourselves. So we did the heavy route of getting our own ISO 30485 medical survival device certification and FDA registration, all of this stuff on our own, and designed it and created it in-house. And the main there. I mean there's a couple of things that set this apart from other devices, but the main design principle is that this is for the body right, so you can have it straight on your skin so?

Alex Fergus: 4:57

so what do you mean?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 4:58

it's for the body I mean a panel is stationary right or at the stationary. You need a distance.

Alex Fergus: 5:06

Right, so you're using it on the surface, on the skin, contact-wise.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 5:12

And that you can't really do with most devices out there because it gets either too hot or too much radiation. So we encased it and we created this very flexible silicone-type belt. And so, as you know very well, the power of especially near infrared light and the wavelengths is that they penetrate the skin. So if you sit in just a room illuminated by red or red light or infrared light, um, it is going to have to be extremely powerful in order to penetrate anything. Yes, and what you want is really to get under, be extremely powerful in order to penetrate anything, and what you want is really to get under the skin, and so we designed this. It might be used anywhere on the body, but of course, it's specifically useful for getting into knees or elbows or joints, because you can literally illuminate from three different angles.

Alex Fergus: 6:05

Is it LED?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 6:07

Yeah, so this is an LED-driven. In terms of power profile and output profile, it's similar to a half-body panel packed into a portable device, so it's quite focused and powerful and targeted, and that's how we can achieve also with some humility. We have really, really strong results on, especially inflammation reduction, pain, where you can tend to things because you can get straight in where you need it yeah, so what are we?

Alex Fergus: 6:33

what are we using here?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 6:34

660 red yeah, so this is uh 625 to 635 in the rat spectrum and then 810 to 850 in the near and near-incurrent spectrum.

Alex Fergus: 6:44

Okay, so that's quite a wide range in the near-infrared. Do you have different chips in there or is it just the LED? That's quite wide.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 6:52

It's a sweep between these frequencies. There's one setting that is specific to the 860 in one of the settings, and the other ranges from 810 to 850.

Alex Fergus: 7:02

How does that work? So you literally have different chips in there, like an 810, an 830, an 850, and it moves between them, or is there a chip that's putting out?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 7:12

There's bulbs I was able to sweep.

Alex Fergus: 7:15

I haven't come across that before. That's interesting. Yeah, really cool.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 7:19

But it's similar wavelengths you would find in most sort of high-rate devices, yeah, and similar kind of output.

Alex Fergus: 7:26

Yeah, yeah. But typically though, like with a pedal, for instance, if it has an 850 nanometer chip in it, the peak is 850, but you're getting a range of, say, 840 to 860. But you're saying yours will sweeten the range.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 7:40

Our peak is around 830. Okay, right, because it goes from 815, 810 to 815 at the bottom and up to 850.

Alex Fergus: 7:46

Okay, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And is it pulse light?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 7:50

One of the settings has pulse light, okay, and the other is just straight. So you can choose if you're really into that choice.

Alex Fergus: 7:57

What's the pulsing rate?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 7:58

Do you know that? I was a check with my chic engineer?

Alex Fergus: 8:01

so do you know much about pulsating like what's the? Uh, why would, why would someone, why would you recommend someone using the pulsating function?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 8:08

I know the recommendations from some of the researchers that it's supposed to have more effect for the uptake, um, but uh, honestly, I would also ask you the same question about, uh, whether you think pulsating is a good idea. We've had a lot of these discussions. Yeah, I've a lot into the research. Ah, it's not you and equivocal, I think no 100 and that's I.

Alex Fergus: 8:28

I personally don't use it on a day-to-day basis, like in terms of, uh, my pedal. I don't use pulsing. However, there are user case situations where, yeah, pulsing seems to have some benefit. Uh, my son, for instance, is using laser therapy, photobiomodulation, um, uh, on his head and we're using pulse light for that because of the thermal buildup, you know so, so you're mitigating that. Um, then, I know I mean there's scott kennedy from light path led. He makes panels, quite unique panels.

Alex Fergus: 9:01

I've interviewed him and he's he's big on pulsing, you know, and there's a whole nother world out there, not just not just pulsing the light, but the, the benefits of that frequency and the resonance, and it's a whole nother world. You know, like you know, it's a I'm, I'm like you, I, I don't really know. We've done articles on it, uh, but is is taking a pretty deep dive on it. Um, it looks like there's some promise to it, especially around the thermal side of things if you're trying to get deep into the tissue. But again, I'm still like, I think for most people you probably don't need it, but I may be very, very wrong on that and in two years' time I may be like, oh my God, why have I not been?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 9:44

using this. There's more research coming out to show more differentiated benefits from using pulsing, but I think one of the key parameters that was important for us with this and this goes to my original understanding of this from physics is there is a biophysics of light and how it works, in which power is crucial and the power output as well. You will see a lot of uh, let's say, cheap roll-up devices and things that don't have any fans.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 10:10

Those do like the pads, like the little yeah, and they uh, will advertise benefits along the lines of what everybody else is doing, uh and uh. We think it's very, very difficult to understand how that could possibly yield benefits. You cannot penetrate the skin with half a watt output in total or something like this, and I think this is sometimes a missing piece. A lot of the high-grade panels that you also use are in a relatively high power output range, but then, of course, they're also blasting from a distance. So the effective reading that you need to keep in mind is it doesn't really matter what power it has here, it matters what power it has when it's in your skin. So that's why we were able to make more effective devices to pack it in than its skin contact.

Alex Fergus: 11:04

So do you know the numbits in terms of irradiance?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 11:07

The irradiance. This one's about 100 milliwatts per square centimeter or for infrared and then about 60 for the red. So you get a combined output of about 150 at the peak, and this varies a bit by program. Yeah, so from 120 to 150 in that range.

Alex Fergus: 11:26

So the programs. What's changing between the programs? Is it intensity?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 11:32

It changes the differentiation of red versus near-infrared light, so we have three settings.

Alex Fergus: 11:36

Yes.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 11:37

One setting is more skin-oriented, so therefore it has much more red light. Yes, setting two is more similar to what you find in the high-end panel. It's both at the same force, like near-infrared and red. And then we have a settings three, which a lot of our users embrace, which we call the deep setting. That's the most powerful near-infrared setting. So that's over 100 milliwatts per square centimeter, just near-infrared, straight on the skin. So with that you're able to really go deep and target a deep noise issue or something like this. So this is an easy differentiation. People can choose if they have surface level pigment or whether they want to go deep.

Alex Fergus: 12:14

That's cool, I like that. I like how you've kind of giving people it's a word, not guidelines, but yeah, those options. It's like, hey, what's the goal, what are you trying to do? Okay, we'll then use this program, because that is a big issue in the space. I mean especially with panels, where there's so many variables at play.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 12:33

I mean between the panels, wavelengths and radiance, but then distance, you know, treatment time, and it's like yeah, it's very easy to get lost in the weeds and for people researching this and trying to find out what's the best solution for them, it can be overwhelming the number of parameters. So a very basic one has to do with this tower. We've said that it's impossible for cheap lights to basically that don't have sand to be able to actually produce those kinds of benefits, and if we're quite concerned that the space is being crowded by these things that make all these claims when there are, like, really serious providers out there, we'll have goob's research behind them yeah, I, I.

Alex Fergus: 13:11

It's funny, I shared a taxi home from um the dinner last night with james carroll and yeah, we got talking about this. Of course, james from from thor laser, you know medical products. He's been in the space for 30, 40 years, right, and he's just like it's. It's frustrating how companies can come out and make these big claims and not only are the claims totally misleading, but the product is not even doing what they're saying it's doing. From an iranian's point of view, or even a wavelength point of view. I've seen this where products have been sent to me for review and it's marketed as putting out a particular wavelength. And I test it, it's like no, it's not, you know, and people are buying this because you'll get some beauty influencers saying, oh, my god, it's the best thing ever. So, yeah, I, I share your uh, frustrations. Um, so, with the flex beam, is it intended as a joint product? Like who? What's your typical customer? Is it someone with, like, the sore knee, the sore shoulder, sports athletes?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 14:09

Yeah, I mean it's a broad range and we always try to define who the target customer is and we get it from all over because of the benefits are sort of all over. But we are highly focused on sports and recovery and so we have some ambassadors that are like football stars, tennis stars, someone that have embraced this because they can use it for a very targeted focus. So you do get systemic effects. If you use it, for example, on your stomach or on your spine, you are getting that energy dosage that will go where you need it if you're looking for more well-oiled solution. But the reason people choose this is, in a way, that it's the combination of it being super easy to use, but that you can really wrap it exactly where you need it. And so we're in and most of us have some area that's a bit more of the weak spot or the area that you need kind of yes, love for, and I think it's a really important principle for us with how we designed. It is, and you probably often get asked this question what's the best red light therapy device? There's a lot of theoretical variables about this and we can get into the nerdy parameters of it, but really, at the core. The best red light therapy device is the one that you use most frequently, and compliance is a big issue for I think a lot of people who may be over-eager, like who get excited about the science and then they invest in something Will you actually keep using it after the first sort of honeymoon period of the first week when you're getting excited, will you use it almost every day and get benefits In some cases, if you're really dedicated, that any solution kind of work uh, this helps a lot of people just keep track of.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 15:46

They're actually doing it every day, so people love it. For you know you can multitask. You could like cook dinner for the kids with this on your back, or like people can like you can drive with it, that kind of thing. So, ensuring you actually get a cumulative dose repeatedly every day, like the frequency of use, that's when you will see benefits. I mean, I think a lot of people jump into the space or sort of maybe like okay, I'll just, you know, use the light for a couple of days and then I magically better.

Alex Fergus: 16:15

And that's also not the case, right, you didn't have to use it over time yeah, well, some people come into it thinking this is going to be an absolute magic pipo and within two sessions their 30 years of osteoporosis is going to be cured, and it's like it doesn't kind of work, like, yes, it's going to help, but not that fast. But then I've also seen people on the other side of the spectrum and I shared the story, you know, with family members who are very, very skeptical and then they finally use it and it's like, oh, this actually worked, you know. But yeah, on the other hand, you have the people that expecting absolute change within five minutes and it's like, oh, but saying that, I mean, my personal experience many, many years ago was pretty fast change in terms of pain, uh, oral, uh, gum issues. Yeah, within one or two sessions I was, I noticed I could have ice water without pain, you know, like that quick um. So it does, of course, vary um.

Alex Fergus: 17:12

So with the flex beam, then how long, like with these programs? Let's say you're on the program number three for the joint. How long is that? What's the session runtime?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 17:24

10 minutes. It turns itself off, so you don't have to think about it, and we usually recommend one session is often enough because of the power output. But if you have a particular issue or you want to put it in a couple of different phases, of course you can do 20 minutes or 30. But, as you know well, there's no particular benefit to using it hours every day or to overuse it. Then you just don't get any effect.

Alex Fergus: 17:50

Yes and so 10 minutes for all the programs and you mentioned you're working with, like athletes, do you have your, you or your team gone into red light therapy and, in particular, your device using it for sports performance, like prior? To? Yeah, so, because this is one area that I I'm curious to learn more about. I mean, how are your athletes using it? What are they? Are they using it prior to a session on the muscle, on the joint?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 18:16

I mean these are some really interesting studies that are like bigger ones in the literature that we are uh recreating for strength and performance stuff. With this device and also working with the athletes on their use, we try to differentiate between whether it's better to do it before or after, and we've done that in combination then with sham devices and stuff for so we have control groups and the results we're finding is that either works where, either before or after, there was a marginal improvement in people who use it before versus after. But this depends a little bit on what you are kind of looking to treat. So a lot of people, for example, like these studies were done with weightlifting, like lackful downs and ever-deadly-two, like strength, grip defensive or grip strength. Then for people who have already kind of an underlying muscle issue, it can be very beneficial to use it beforehand, sort of warm up and pair the muscle so that you have sort of more give when you are using it. But the more intuitive use is probably to use it after, because the recovery brings a great start to the recovery process. So we haven't been able to see clearly that one works so much better than the other, but only that connection with training. I mean some of these results.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 19:36

I don't know if you've seen some of the bigger studies on this, something like the PubMed literature done on strength performance. It's really significant numbers, right. It's kind of where some people are saying that should it be allowed? Yes, I was, so I hear this like world, uh, and I think we want to do larger control studies. I think the numbers will go down as you increase the number of users. Google that we saw. I mean strength improvements up to 40 percent between the control group and this one and I honestly they're using using this like well before after any, and that's for like a lot pulled out, for example, um. So I have already been leaving that. The deal is that's huge, right, um, but if you look at the large trials, it's like 10 to 20 percent, which is more than more than just a marginal gain than any top athlete. This is like a game changer for everyone hey, really quick.

Alex Fergus: 20:26

If you're enjoying this video, can I ask a quick favor? Hit the like button down below. It means a lot to me and while you're doing that, if you want to see more videos like this, uh, hit the subscribe button because I actually have a lot of interviews. I did about six interviews at the health optimization summit on all things red light therapy. So be sure to hit subscribe if you want to be notified.

Alex Fergus: 20:47

Yeah, I mean, I personally my routine with my, my devices. I use it before training. It's just the way it's set up in my home, like I've got my panels in my little gym and yeah, it's just part of my pre-workout routine and it's nice because I know there's benefits around it. But it's also part of that routine, that ritual you know, like I'll play in my workout there's I'm standing there using the panels and then I also train monday to friday and I have the weekend off. So then I'm not doing red light therapy every single day and and there's different schools of thought on that but I just, you know, for me I I think it's, it's, it works well for me and you talked about that earlier like it's like dieting or training programs, red light therapy. You could have the best product or the best diet or whatever it is, but if you're not going to use it, you're not going to stick with it. It's a waste of time, right? So?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 21:38

um, so one of my co-founders is a medical doctor who's worked with this kind of technology for over 20 years, so it was she convinced me to join this because she had worked on it so much clinically on patients and while it was dreaming about making something that is so easy to use a hall, but it's that they don't have to come to a clinic. Yeah, it is right.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 21:58

uh, so she has devised protocols for all our users, and I think this is something that also sets us apart we have clinical guidance on this like easy settings, but if you have a specific issue, like a frozen shoulder or like an elbow or like a jumper's knee or any of these kinds of things, we've designed protocols for that and you get that free as part of the membership when you join so okay, sorry to interrupt, so, like, because you've only got one product right.

Alex Fergus: 22:24

This is your product and so you've got the settings in there. So then, if you have yeah, like what did you say?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 22:32

jumpers, knee yeah, but it's a common one. Or like uh hit flexor issue or they tend to follow yeah that's probably tennis elbow.

Alex Fergus: 22:38

So then you can go in and it will say recommendation will be say what like, use program two for x amount of minutes x amount of minutes, uh, so and so often and uh.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 22:48

This is the reason I want to mention it because, uh, her research and so our school of thought is also, it's good to take breaks. So her general protocols are like use it monday to friday into weekends. Obviously I'll be very happy to hear that, because what seems to be working for you as well.

Alex Fergus: 23:02

So wow, this is so cool. So how many protocols does she? Do you guys have? We have?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 23:08

now 150, so a little bit less than 100, but we're now like, yeah, dreaming them out piecemeal. We also have webinars with her. She's an amazing resource, dr sugev rost and she's like she's a superstar in the energy medicine crossover field. To this she's a co-founder she's a wonderful and so.

Alex Fergus: 23:26

So these aren't protocols, where you you've just picked numbers out of the out of the air they've all been tested on people and this is drawing on her expertise.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 23:34

You saying she used to use laser or something she discovered lead technology and all of this stuff but uh, she estimates just treated over 10 000 patients over time with these modalities, including wool brand like therapy okay, cool, so someone purchases this.

Alex Fergus: 23:50

How much is it?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 23:52

uh, it's about 500.

Alex Fergus: 23:53

The regards were at 549 yeah it's actually really a price. I thought it'd be. I thought it was going to be closer to $1,000.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 24:00

Yeah, we got out the middleman of the factory we designed ourselves so we are able to kind of keep the price down and we think with more volume we can also get it out more cheaply which we think is important. We give people a choice that they don't have to invest so much money to get a high-power, high-quality device.

Alex Fergus: 24:17

Yeah, that's a really good price point, Okay. Yeah, that's a really good price point. Okay, so I purchased that. But then you mentioned the membership. Tell me more about that.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 24:24

Yeah, this is now in a pilot stage, but all new customers can get invited into a space. For now it's web-based, but there you have access to protocols that you can ask other users questions. You can also book consultations if you want to go all-in with the doctor or join webinars. Most of the space is free, and then we have some more advanced protocols that we're testing out. People are willing to subscribe to have more in-depth benefits and that's to patients because this comes with a price of advice.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 24:55

You, you get a free membership, so okay.

Alex Fergus: 24:57

So let's say someone's listening and they have tennis elbow and they want to go out and buy this With that $550 price. Will they then get the protocol recommendation for that Tennis Alba, or do you have to?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 25:09

upgrade to the? Yeah, they will get for most protocols. There are some more advanced medical things that we haven't quite really skipped into the free space. But yeah, once you get the device you just easily log on and the protocols are there and you can download that's cool because that's like the biggest issue that I see in the space at the moment.

Alex Fergus: 25:28

Well, no, there's a lot of issues you know, like around which product should I get and how reliable are they and what wavelengths, and all of that, but the the biggest issue that I have is I don't still don't know, like dosing wise. You know what the recommendation is. I mean, it's asked all the time and, and I feel bad saying I don't really know because, like it's very, very complex and, like I touched on earlier, there are so many variables, especially when you're using products that aren't on the skin. You know, like at a distance, so many variables and how do you control for all of them? And so, yeah, it's it's like I don't know and I I wish I did know and I wish I could help people. Um, so, yeah, I'm gonna have to dive into this because that's it's pretty cool, like, especially if this you're you've researched the protocols and you're testing them, you know what I mean. It's not just, uh, yeah, about you know five milliwatts for you know five jupiter.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 26:29

I know it is for a lot of trials, so we were fortunate enough to then have access to people who want to test subjects and in a clinical setting, a lot of these things. We can't publish the trials yeah, it's on um. Yeah, it's on it's on Endeavor but it's super important to us. Building documentation and hands on practical guidance has been key from the start and this is what, as we mentioned before, it's what frustrating about the space that it's also overselling on benefits and there are so many parameters.

Alex Fergus: 27:04

Yes, so what about skin and beauty? Are people using it for their face?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 27:09

Yeah, so you can use it on setting one. It's like a skin setting and this will have quite powerful red light. Most of these face masks and things that are in the space, they don't have so much power output and you technically don't need so much power for red light for the skin to produce an effect, but you do for near infrared. Well, that's why it's a power is important for that. But, uh, we didn't design this as a beauty device and we're not selling it as like yeah, like that's not the main reason we'll buy it. But once you have one, if you sit like this and close your eyes and just 10 minutes in the morning and hold it like this, you're gonna get like quality wise, in terms of the output and dose and wavelength, something that is definitely as good as the best mask out there.

Alex Fergus: 27:56

Yeah, uh, and then the other good thing is you can still use it on the knee at the higher power setting whereas a mask that some of the masks are still selling for five, six hundred dollars. I mean it's one thing and it's very underpowered and I mean I suppose you could try use it on the knee whether it's going to do anything. It might, might heal that little uh scab. You've got there, but that may be about it.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 28:19

You know what I mean it's not going to be able to penetrate it and or do anything. Uh, and frankly, the beauty segment is now what's kind of confusing the space a little bit and like it's creating a noise space. Uh, so what we started, I mean it's photo by modulation and neoreg for red and for us we're engineering on terms. Red life therapy became this term. Who makes. That covers both red and near-infrared lights. But I don't know what you think about this when you're watching this space, but now I see 90% to 95% of all the sort of news on red light therapy you see is all driven by cosmetics and is literally just red light. The near-infrared that you get in, like this one or in profession panels, that's completely under communicated. People think the red light is red light. Uh, and I'm not quite sure what's gonna, what's gonna happen with that, because, uh, cosmetics is basically like, if this is going to go mainstream, it's like cosmetics that's driving it and it's nowhere near the same kind of treatment as you can get here yeah, I mean it's.

Alex Fergus: 29:19

It's interesting because it's funny. I was just talking to kenyon. Uh, you know the guys from kenyon and uh, they're working on a gut product right and they're using near infrared and it's quite a high intensity, of course, because they're getting into the gut right. And we were talking afterwards how I actually said, look, I I think you should put, because you, there is a bit of research around the red light. Of course you're not going to get the deep penetration, but he was finding that there was actually some benefits just from getting some red on there. And I said to him afterwards I said I actually think you should include a red on there because I know what will happen People will turn it on and they'll say it's not working because, just like you said, I mean people associate red light therapy with red, like the visual red color, right. And he's like, yeah, it's a good point because, yeah, like people, I mean the name itself, it's not never red light therapy, it's it's red light therapy, right. And uh, yeah, you're right, I think it's funny because I actually don't do that much in the beauty space, like it's only recently we've looked at some masks, and that because so many people want to know about them. So, for me, I've never really appreciated that as a big problem, but now that you mention it and now that you see the beauty space, which is primarily using the red, yeah, I can, I can see how it is an issue going forward.

Alex Fergus: 30:39

On the flip side, though, um, as more and more people experience the benefits of these more powerful devices on things like knees and, you know, elbows, I just think it's just going to keep growing because it works. I mean, yeah, the science is there, but, more importantly, it's so easy to get these benefits. It's just, it's just a matter of time of becoming more and more popular, popular and mainstream. And, yeah, I mean, I think, with a company like yourself, I mean the cool thing is not only are you designing and creating your own product it's not just a copy paste, run of the mill like clone product that we're seeing everywhere but you're also you're doing the research, you're coming up with this protocol. You know you, you're doing it all right, and the customer is then getting the great results, and that's going to push, push the space forward, because you have the credibility of the research. You have a really unique, high quality product. I just think, with time. Like you, can't go wrong. You know what I mean.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 31:42

Like yeah, I mean I don't do right that it's like a deep burrs or sort of a swell, a ground swell, that it's in a sort of rise and all boats will rise, kind of, with it. I do think it's important the work that you are doing, also to help people guide them through all of the clutter in the space, because there's definitely a lot of devices out there that don't really work or can't possibly do what they're supposed to be doing.

Alex Fergus: 32:04

Yeah, so that's really that's really brutal, yeah, and I mean I do my best, uh, and I I mentioned earlier, like how, you know, I've got a spectrometer and how, yeah, I've literally tested. I see it all the time. It's like, oh, it's putting out on paper it's meant to put out 60, 70 milliwatts, and I test it and it's like seven. You know, it's like seriously, like and I'll call, call it out in the, in the videos, like in the review, um, because people need to know this and hey, maybe seven's all you need for that particular issue, whether it's like you know the skin and stuff. But I'm like that's, that's very different to what they're claiming. And if people, if people do a bit of digging and they think, all right, well, yeah, I've got joint issues and I need, you know, 50 to 60 to 70 milliwatts, okay, cool, that product out there is putting out 70, but it's not, you know, then they're going to get burnt, they're going to not literally burnt, they're going to spend the money and not get the results, and then that has a bad impact on the community, on the industry as a whole. Right, because it's like no, I spent 500 on this fancy product, that so-and-so influence I was raving about, and it didn't work. Red light therapy is a scam, but it's like. No, it's not, it's, it's all of these issues and it's frustrating, it's very frustrating.

Alex Fergus: 33:15

Um, I know, when you get into the medical space, then of course there are more rules and restrictions around it, right, in terms of what you can and cannot say and the testing and all. And I know this is where, like thor laser, james carroll, you know that's, that's their thing, and like, everything is tested and they literally test every single product. But of course, with that comes high prices, you know. So it's never really going to be in every single home. So whether, like, the space as a whole needs some rules and regulations in there, I'm, I mean, I personally think that would be beneficial big time. Uh, it'll probably see. You know, some costs and all that have to go up, but long term it's going to be beneficial. Otherwise, I mean, yeah, you're always going to be fighting these people who are, these companies who are making bold claims and putting up junk, um, cheap copycat product made in china, kind of.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 34:10

So it's a uh, I mean I would second that and I think it's probably going to move in that direction. Yeah, for us, the only strategy has been to be transparent about the science and about the clinical stuff and just show as much as we can about what we're doing, and then we also have a sphere in our lab, right, so we're taking in really also competitive products to see and to test them, and we've had similar experiences to you that like a claim on the website to be doing this and is it ever near?

Alex Fergus: 34:37

Oh, that must be so frustrating for you guys Because, like, at least I can come out and show that like as an independent sort of reviewer. But I know you guys probably as much as you'd love to probably yeah, but it's also sort of how.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 34:52

How important is it to? I mean, I want to pull down competitors at the end of the product, but what I see, uh, you know other portable products that came to be doing the same thing and they have a fifth of the power output this morning. Then maybe you can get results with that kind of dosage, but that's I.

Alex Fergus: 35:07

I really doubt it yeah, it's interesting, though, because there are some products I've tested. I'm not going to mention names. Um, if you watch enough of my reviews, you'll you'll come across the the companies I am referring to here, but they are very, very underpowered. There's a few beauty products here like very underpowered compared to what they're saying, but people still getting results with it, right, like so it's like huh well, what is going on here? Like in theory, we should be. You should need x level of intensity to get such benefits. This company's putting out a product that's intensities down here, but you've got thousands of people raving about it. Like you know what I mean. It's like yeah, it's interesting.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 35:48

I was just having a conversation with uh dinner yesterday with an investor in the space who's followed it and, like he actually concerned he wouldn't be chiming in here if it was part of this conversation. He's moving to try to get more validation around a lot of the claims in the whole space. But he was saying from all the studies that he's seen 40% of results are placebo anyway. Really, I mean that's what you're saying but I don't know if that is the metric behind it. But if you say one third or 40% people, if you really believe in something, you will like a third of people will sort of get results. What's really crucial to move the needle and to validate the system beyond placebo is when you have, like we did with like 80 percent of our customers are saying, wow, I got that great results. Yes, then you sort of know that it's more than placebo.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 36:35

But in theory you could sell a lot of solutions and you know consciousness is an important driver in the whole process. So if you really believe in solvent, then you will add some something to the treatment, right, uh? But it's easier, of course, to believe in something when you see the numbers are and it actually really works. Then you have the sort of positive feedback yeah, so that's uh, yeah, I'm not. I'm not so surprised to see that if you put out a product that doesn't really have any quantitative measurements like, and that's the only, you will still find people who are enthusiastic about it, so you could pick out somebody who's like, oh yeah, better, right.

Alex Fergus: 37:15

So what you need to demonstrate is, with larger data sets and more people and consistently over time, and we'll decide yeah, well, I think I think you as a company are going about it the right way, um, and just as someone who is in the space again, I can share those frustrations that you must have. But I think, if you're just like you know, keep doing the right thing and then, you know, you, you have the team, you have the research, you have really good, high quality products. You know, you keep doing that. It's just a matter of time.

Alex Fergus: 37:44

You know, the cream always rises to the top, and these other companies, whether it's going to be regulation or just people, uh, you know, watch more of my videos, for instance, and learn about this stuff. Eventually, the good stuff's gonna, you know, make it. So, um, yeah, just keep doing what you're doing, I guess, um, and I can't wait to, uh, to have a play around with it myself, and I kind of wish I had, you know, reached out what. I think there was some communication a while ago and I just, yeah, I have so many companies and so many products these days and I'm just like I can't do it all and, um, yeah, I wish I'd prioritize yours it's a symptom of a noisy sector.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 38:21

But uh, do you have anything that you would test it for? If you're thinking about a targeted spot or something?

Alex Fergus: 38:26

yeah, I mean I like, yeah, I would love to look into some of these protocols and and, and you know, fortunately I don't have any injuries or anything at the moment, but I would probably find someone in the family, you know, and just be like, all right, run with it. Let me know in a month how you're finding it. You know, that's how I test, and then, of course, I'll do my own testing and and do the pros and cons and what I like about, what I don't like about it.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 38:48

I think, from a price point though, it's um, very, very that's an investment and not to be too salesy, but we're sort of used to this, uh already that people when they do the research and they get into it, they find this is um a good value product and that we also extended our warranty to five years. Five years, yeah, so the battery might change after a couple of years. Can we go with that? Send it back? Yeah, you can. We have battery for the next in service, but the light themselves, like. We've been now in the marketplace for almost five years. So we saw that we have no issues down the line. If there were any issues to sort it out originally, then there's no reason not to extend the warranty yeah, that's.

Alex Fergus: 39:29

That's very, very impressive. Um, especially for a portable device. Yeah, that's amazing. Um. Do you have any plans to update this?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 39:38

new products yeah, we have a second version in the pipeline.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 39:44

I only say say so much about it on the hardware side, the various improvements. But honestly, I see the way the space is moving and the kind of audience that we have in the target demographic for this, both overlapping with sports and with health. Increasingly, people have data right. They're sporting an aura ring like myself, and most people have data on their body. So to find that both the integration and the software aspect of this, and to add a data side to show it to users, uh, that what's really happening, yeah, and and to to close that sort of uh benefit the act I think red light therapy often suffers from people need to use it for a while to realize that has effect or not.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 40:25

So that's what we're working to to try to improve, and for us the goal is to take this ultimately to everybody and therefore we're also wanting to design something that is as easy to use, as close to you as possible. Minimize the waste, made it more efficient and effective. And if you want the full body treatment, the has, like you know, the best beds up there, but then you have to rent rent the safe in it. With this you can kind of we'll try to do it yeah yeah it's super easy to travel.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 40:56

Yeah, so I'm assuming it comes with some straps yeah, that's on velcro straps of different lengths that are easy to fasten wherever you need it. Yeah, and guys, and access to protocols and all this um and a little travel case so you can fit it in your backpack on you when you fly well, how many sessions would you get?

Alex Fergus: 41:14

how many 10 minute sessions would you get out of one charge roughly depends on which setting, but uh, up to an hour. Oh really yeah well, so you could take it away for a weekend, for instance. You wouldn't even need to charge it.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 41:25

No, but it does like this kind of battery will weigh over time down maybe to four or five cycles. But yeah, you could use it, plug it in whatever you need. So give it a spin and test it out, we'll learn what it is.

Alex Fergus: 41:44

Yeah, very impressed, yeah, very cool. Have I missed anything? Is there anything else that people should know or I should know?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 41:55

I think it covers the most important aspects. I think it would be cool for your audience to know what you think of it once you've had a chance to have a go at it and maybe test it on some people as well well, yeah, be sure to subscribe for the, uh, the full review.

Alex Fergus: 42:11

Hey, um, thank you, yeah, pleasure, uh, speaking to you. And, um, where can people find more about the flex beam, the, the work you, you're doing as a company yourself, even?

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 42:24

yeah, uh, we are at rechargehealth lines. Are captains, recharge health? Uh, the device is called flexine, so whether you go to the website rechargehealth or just search for flexine, you'll find us. Uh, we offer a lot of background, scientific studies and all of this sort of stuff as well for people who want to review, um and uh, yeah, you can also get in touch with me through that. Very cool, I mean, I'll make that awesome.

Alex Fergus: 42:47

Thank you again for your time and um. I look forward to crossing paths with you again at a another event, or hey, maybe I'll have to pop up to europe sometime. And norway I've never been up there, so that could be cool yeah, sounds good.

Dr Bjørn Ekeberg: 43:00

Take it really, yeah awesome thank you.

Alex Fergus: 43:02

Thank you so much. All right, guys, that is a wrap. I'm gonna put all the links to recharge health, uh, flexbeam, any discounts and discount codes, all of that, down below. I'll also put a link to dr beyond's personal website because, yeah, he's written some rather fascinating books and has some neat content on youtube as well, so be sure to check all of that out. Of course, if you have any questions for myself or for recharge health, I'll leave them down below and I'll make sure they get answered and also jump in our facebook group to discuss this conversation. I'll head over to light therapy insiders if you want to know more about red light therapy, and be sure to check out one of my other interviews. I have a heap of them now on this channel. I'm going to put one up here, or maybe the playlist up here.