Interview with Ryen Goebel

Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe! Ryen (she/her) is a force of good and creative energy in our local scene here in the Panhandle of Florida (and frog enthusiast). She writes and reads poetry regularly at TV Dinner Theater open mic in Niceville, sketches, and makes beautiful textile-based art, as well. Ryen will be joining us from time to time to recap the last few episodes.

Audience questions: What is the name of the Grinch's dog?

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Transcript

(Automatically generated)

Hi everybody this is Kal Addams. 

Speaker 1  (01:21)
I'm James Barrett Rodehaver. 

Speaker 3  (01:23)
And I'm Ryen Goebel. 

Speaker 2  (01:25)
And we are coming to you from Pensacola, Florida today. This is recording dates November the election. It was 4 days ago, life is interesting right now. 

Speaker 2  (01:44)
Um, are we, uh, are so happy to have Ryan? Our dear friend whom we know from open mic that we regularly attend the TV dinner theater open mic, which you all have heard us speak about Lauren Boyer, you've heard. I heard us interview Lauren and if you haven't heard that episode, then make sure you go and listen to it because he's a really interesting guy and I think that you would enjoy it. 

Speaker 2  (02:14)
So thanks for for spending some time with us and we're just here to kind of hold space, do a little bit of collective grieving and talk about Community and what comes next? And we're just gonna keep on keeping on, so thanks for coming. Ryan, we really appreciate you, driving all the way from Destin. 

Speaker 2  (02:37)
Yes, I was happy to do it. Yay, so what what do you do? Ryen? 

Speaker 2  (02:45)
What are some of the things that you you do as far as poetry and you know, you know, community around here 

Speaker 3  (02:53)
Hmm, okay, so the way that I ended up becoming friends with wonderful poetry. People in Pensacola was that I um reconnected with a friend who is in my creative writing class next 

Speaker 2  (03:09)
In high school. 

Speaker 3  (03:11)
Which was a very stressful time senior year creative writing class first the class with poetry in it. And so the people that I was in that class with we had a lot more of a like connection to each other. It's been like my sure, because sure we're writing and performing homes, yes. 

Speaker 2  (03:33)
And also, because some of those guys are gonna go about and become economics and that's unfortunate. 

Speaker 3  (03:42)
Well, the teacher was hilarious, but yeah, I don't think I would crazy. I do that path, but um. 

Speaker 2  (03:49)
But Barbie dragons down that I don't don't do that to yourself. No. 

Speaker 3  (03:56)
So I reconnected with Katie, who is a singer and songwriter, and she organizes all kinds of different events in Pensacola, and through her, I met Sean, and I ended up going to an event at the Gordon community arts center here. 

Speaker 2  (04:17)
We love the Gordon, yes. 

Speaker 3  (04:19)
Yes, which was amazing and yeah, so going to that I ended up. It was just an event that um there was like art up, but there was also a little like Q&A session. It's like supposed to be about 15 minutes, I think it went a bit longer, which was great, and it was just people talking about art and lots of people who do different kinds of art and I just ended up meeting. 

Speaker 3  (04:46)
Poor people in Sean circle and then I invited them to come over to, I'll fries are to do TV dinner theater stuff. Yeah, yeah, so I guess one of the things that I do is I'm talking to people about art and meeting their friends and then sort of bringing them in and trying to connect. 

Speaker 2  (05:07)
So networking, so it's even like the flat lego piece between lego pieces, I also identify as one of them, so I get it. 

Speaker 1  (05:15)
It's like a really tall tetris piece that is 

Speaker 2  (05:18)
That's right. 

Speaker 1  (05:20)
Because now we can disappear 

Speaker 2  (05:25)
Your metaphors are fun Bear, yeah. 

Speaker 1  (05:29)
In fact, the only other language I speak yeah. 

Speaker 3  (05:34)
Yes, oh my goodness. I love um, I love forgetting to do that, though cause all, I will meet 2 people who have never met each other who are talking to me about the same thing, and I'm like, all right, you guys need to. 

Speaker 2  (05:47)
Clearly, this is the thing 

Speaker 3  (05:48)
It's going to be wonderful, yeah, so yeah, so that's one of the things that I do. 

Speaker 2  (05:55)
Um, with it. 

Speaker 3  (05:57)
Okay. So you're asking about poetry and community. Yes, what else do I do um I do some volunteering, it's not particularly poetry related but sometimes it's like story related in a way because II help out with the people who do the Florida trail. 

Speaker 2  (06:23)
Um, I'm unfamiliar. 

Speaker 3  (06:24)
Okay. So the Florida trail association as a bunch of volunteers who take care of the trail so that people can continue to use it good bum because it it's basically growing year round. Sure, so it gets very leafy and you can't see the like trail markers and stuff and it would just like turn into. 

Speaker 3  (06:44)
Wild swamp, so, but it's it's a lot of retired people who've been like doing this as their passion for years and they built like these like suspension bridges and all these like, really cool things, but yeah, so I volunteer with them and usually we're not going very fast you know. Which? 

Speaker 2  (07:07)
I appreciate that I appreciate taking your time and doing things in your own time like we don't do that enough. I think. 

Speaker 3  (07:13)
Yeah, it's like it. It's I there are a couple of them who walk really fast, which is funny, but the rest of them are like we're out in Florida in the summer time it's we need to go slow, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (07:25)
And practical? 

Speaker 3  (07:26)
Also, they love to talk about all kinds of different things, so we talk about art and um, their memories of the trail and building all the different things, so I sort of get to know like their stories as people and then some of them like drawer, painter, do you things like that and then I started it, volunteering at the biophilia center. Which is also a really low drive 

Speaker 2  (07:53)
That is either I don't have I'm learning so much today. 

Speaker 3  (07:56)
Yes, okay. So that's out in Freeport, and there is a person who had a lot of money and decided to like buy a lot of the land where the like long leaf pines and a bunch of endangered species with and set it aside like forever in a trust and then also donated the money for this school to be put together. Basically, it's like a very small school. 

Speaker 3  (08:26)
For kids to come and learn about like different creatures and also the environment of this area, but also just like get exposed to like nature being fun and weird and like tangible for them. Yeah, so so I've started volunteering there with turtle Bob, which is amazing and her old turtle turtle Bob. He did mental health work for like 25 years, but he also like grew up in the Everglades, just like picking up snakes and taking them home and he's just this very gentleman who loves animals and educating people about them and also just kind of mental health and wellness. 

Speaker 2  (09:09)
Yes, I would love to need he's turtle Bob at some point. He sounds like somebody I would very much enjoy. 

Speaker 3  (09:15)
Yeah, he's great and his powerpoints are very funny but um. 

Speaker 2  (09:20)
So some underrated skill 

Speaker 3  (09:22)
Yeah, a good power points. This is quite good. So he is working with classes of I think fourth graders and seventh graders and teaching them about snakes and turtles for like 30 minutes and then giving them a bunch of snakes that are safe to hold so that they can snakes. 

Speaker 1  (09:44)
In town, elementary school 

Speaker 3  (09:46)
It's so good. 

Speaker 2  (09:47)
I love snakes so much, so the snakes aren't bad. 

Speaker 1  (09:51)
No, there isn't. 

Speaker 3  (09:53)
Snakes are amazing. 

Speaker 2  (09:55)
We love snakes. 

Speaker 3  (09:56)
It's a big podcast. 

Speaker 1  (09:57)
That's right. That's right. You know, if y'all know me, you know, inside me beats the heart of a reptile 

Speaker 2  (10:06)
I believe that actually 

Speaker 1  (10:08)
I'm a lizard. I like basking in the Sun. It's why I don't mind a warm October or November for that matter, but that after a while. 

Speaker 1  (10:17)
Yeah, I'm ready for it to cool down. 

Speaker 2  (10:19)
It is November. 

Speaker 3  (10:21)
Yes, it is very hot and humid. 

Speaker 2  (10:24)
Oh my God, it is like I'm sweating right now like in this room. 

Speaker 3  (10:28)
Look at this. 

Speaker 2  (10:29)
It is November 9th, as I said before and it is hot. This is only my 2nd November here in Florida back home after being gone for 17 years and so I am reamating to being in at the Southeast because I was in the Pacific Northwest for the last 10 years or so-and-so like this um. It's different, yes. 

Speaker 3  (11:00)
And getting warmer and warmer? Yeah, so yeah, yeah, something to it used to. 

Speaker 2  (11:08)
This is the coolest summer that's ever gonna be. 

Speaker 3  (11:12)
Ah, yes. 

Speaker 1  (11:13)
20 years from now, I don't know what's what the temperature is it going to be or what's going to be recognizable, but we're gonna you know? Do the best. We can yeah soon? 

Speaker 2  (11:24)
So, yeah, yes, so, yeah, you do a lot of you do a lot of like volunteering, community work, but you also just do a lot of like person to person connecting and like helping people just generally speaking and doing nice things for them like I one thing that II love is like i think the first time that I met you, you were like, Hey, Kal, it's so nice to meet you and then also Bear. Look, I'm making you this best or like whatever you ask the Jacket. 

Speaker 1  (11:57)
Like it's the biggest clothing project she's ever undertaken. I am so looking forward to I've seen pictures. It looks and I've seen it, it's my pieces person. 

Speaker 1  (12:08)
It looks I love it. There's peacock feathers and there's a bear on there, when I put all my pins on there, it's gonna be the coolest jacket. I'm gonna be the coolest guy at the beach. 

Speaker 3  (12:22)
But you will probably overheat, because of all the layers, so yeah, you have to you have to 

Speaker 1  (12:28)
Yeah, right, that's another thing is Ryan, beyond poetry and just general what she does for her community is multi-talented. She writes, she sews, she crochets, she draws. 

Speaker 2  (12:42)
And I was about to say and draws, like I was just kind of stunned, like the last time that I got up and read while you were there and just kind of like looked over your shoulder, cause I'm nosy and and and saw the the pictures that you know the ride had just been. Doodling, you know, while we were up there, reading just about our stories and our poems, and I was like, hmm. 

Speaker 1  (13:09)
It's an insane level of skill to do, and not be flexing is a flame. 

Speaker 2  (13:17)
Yeah, just just yeah, it's like casual. 

Speaker 1  (13:19)
Actually, when I start a poem, you know, at an open mic or doing something else and I'm like, if that's just a random Tuesday and people are like, how do you do that and I'm like, don't watch me write, I don't, I don't like that, but um, yeah, it's just I think you have a natural gift, but I also think in the way that I have a natural gift that we've done the work to. To get the skills to keep challenging ourselves and keep becoming better better artists. You're multifaceted, like stained class. 

Speaker 1  (13:53)
It's really cool cool, yeah, if you don't like charge through you, it's a beautiful thing metaphor that's that's that's beautiful man. I love that like I said, I speak metaphor. 

Speaker 3  (14:07)
Yes. 

Speaker 2  (14:09)
So so what are some of the things that you run about? 

Speaker 3  (14:12)
What do I write about? 

Speaker 2  (14:14)
I think I've heard your poems, but you know. 

Speaker 3  (14:16)
Hi everywhere. No I really don't know what I'm doing with poetry so 

Speaker 1  (14:22)
Turning the mundane into the room, miraculous. 

Speaker 3  (14:26)
Some of that II write about silly things, sometimes I want to do more of that, I wrote a poem about the universe, giving you more and more lemons, and that's one of my favorites, because I feel Blake, it's like a way to get into being light-hearted. I think sometimes poetry can be very. 

Speaker 2  (14:50)
Like heavy 

Speaker 3  (14:51)
Raw and intense, like for me, because it's like I'm bringing out some emotions that I would have had trouble even getting to yeah, but then it's also funny. 

Speaker 2  (15:03)
That's a Catharsis for a lot of us, and that's very important. It's a very important outlet like I might have exploded a few times if I didn't do that, but there are many other you know kinds. 

Speaker 1  (15:15)
I wouldn't be here a poetry being able to do that and the whole life-giving you lemon stain and right now it's given a lot of lemons, but then, I think about the metaphor of that statement and that we life didn't give us women we gave ourselves lemons in the metaphor I'm talking politically, but I'm also talking about that. We created lemons. They weren't naturally growing up before we got here. 

Speaker 2  (15:42)
I like lemons, yeah, but like I like lovers a lot. 

Speaker 1  (15:46)
Actually, like it as a kid about her feel a sour nut. 

Speaker 2  (15:50)
Literally. 

Speaker 3  (15:51)
Yeah, I think that's kind of where that poem started. Because II feel like you can use lemons for all kinds of different things, so it's really funny to think of like I'm getting too many lemons because it's like lemonade, you can use it for soup you can make. Hummus, curd, you know that you can make lemon curd or or pies. 

Speaker 1  (16:10)
Are you sure you vitamins? 

Speaker 3  (16:12)
Yeah, it's and they're like brightly. 

Speaker 2  (16:15)
The lemon lighting. 

Speaker 3  (16:18)
The lemon lining, yeah, so I think I write poems about things that I want to look at more closely cause I think I think I guess that's what I get to do when I'm in a poem or trying to make a poem is to like, get out of 4 example, when I read the poem. About slugs, it's not a very long poem, but it's like I think there's all of the general world view about what a slug is and how much time you spend thinking about slugs and how you feel about slugs, which I think, for most people is like, they don't think about it very much, yeah, they're kind of gross, and that's it yeah, and so it's like being like, okay, that's there, but actually what's going on with this little guy and just like looking very closely. 

Speaker 3  (17:13)
At s luck, which I have a very tender spot for in my heart because when I was little, it was like a lot of the cool bugs were also like, maybe a little bit dangerous or like they had, you know, even mole crickets, I think are really cool, but they have all the they have these like. 

Speaker 2  (17:31)
But there are plenty look at him. 

Speaker 3  (17:34)
What are these shovel hands? 

Speaker 1  (17:35)
I do like little things like poems like the insect poems. Also, we can't let this podcast happen without talking about frogs. 

Speaker 3  (17:45)
Well, we'll get into frogs. 

Speaker 2  (17:48)
Cannon frogs, not actually, but like yeah. 

Speaker 3  (17:52)
So so when I was little, it was like I wanted to pick stuff up, but it wasn't necessarily safe to pick up, but like there is no way that you can get hurt picking up a slug. Um, so it's like I can, yeah, because they're just like. 

Speaker 2  (18:04)
It's like some other type of voices or no 

Speaker 3  (18:07)
So okay, well, I say that sea slugs are poisonous, but they're tiny and I don't think they're around here so 

Speaker 2  (18:16)
Yeah, are you a new to Brock enthusiast as well? 

Speaker 3  (18:19)
I am okay, like the best fashion set that it ever. 

Speaker 2  (18:25)
They do, they are flamboyant, yeah, what is that they're like they, they look like seasells, but like what's actually what's the difference between them? I think 

Speaker 3  (18:33)
But they are, I think it's a more official name. Yeah, wow, so we need to get into this also happened. 

Speaker 2  (18:39)
There are some beautiful ones of them. There's there was a creator on you know, the socials who is very enthusiastic about them and I don't remember this right now I'll find out and probably link in the show notes, but but you know II learned a lot about it ranks and they're just, they're, they're, they're beautiful, and the way that they swim is very funny. 

Speaker 3  (19:10)
They kind of they move it in strange ways, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (19:13)
I don't care of the water. 

Speaker 3  (19:14)
To make that sound Yeah, so, um, yeah, so I think it's like I get to look at things more closely and in a more like playful way, so it's probably it's probably like a way of letting my inner child. Um, come on a bit, yeah, cause I feel like there are less rules when I'm writing poems, and it's more important for me to just Find a way to get to the thing and I don't have to do it in any particular way, which is very nice, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (19:59)
I yeah, III get that actually, one of the things that that drew me to poetry as an adult, because like I hated poetry when I was kid and I when I realized that, like poetry like it can't have rules, but it can also like it can just be a playing page and you can build whatever you want with it like. It was like poetry is an anarchist. 

Speaker 1  (20:26)
You can make your own 

Speaker 2  (20:28)
It fits into my, you know, my worldview and and that's kind of how I run with it and yeah, it's that that when I made that connection like I was just like off to the races. 

Speaker 3  (20:42)
Yes, yeah, I was reading, I don't know when I was reading them maybe early college, I was reading the letters to a young poet and yes, yes, I love the holy crazy. 

Speaker 1  (20:58)
That's very much. 

Speaker 3  (20:59)
But it starts out and he's talking about it's like giving advice to this person who's reached out to him like out of like AA random connection that they had, but otherwise out of nowhere, a young poet to be like, Hey, I have these poems Will you give me some advice and he's like, first of all, don't I don't try and get advice from anyone on your poetry right now and also know that most things happen in a space that no word I can reach like most. I think it was like most experiences are unsayable and then he goes along to put so many different things into words like soon. 

Speaker 2  (21:38)
Free flame deeply and like the surgery. 

Speaker 3  (21:45)
But yeah, it's it's really funny. I'm like what you know, and it's even translated, so it's like he's doing it well enough that someone was able to translate it and it's still that it's good, yeah. 

Speaker 1  (21:58)
And I love, I'll tell you, it's love the stuff he tells about. 

Speaker 2  (22:03)
Yeah, II have not red. I am unfamiliar. 

Speaker 3  (22:07)
They're really lovely, not very long, but yeah, the first one is amazing because it's like it's like basically listen to yourself and find out if it's absolutely necessary to your existence to write, it's either, could I live. 

Speaker 1  (22:26)
You're not right, you want to write, but if you notice, if you watch sister act ii will be Goldberg "quotes rilka to a young Lauryn Hill. 

Speaker 3  (22:35)
There you go. 

Speaker 2  (22:37)
Do you remember the quote? 

Speaker 1  (22:39)
It was like if you want to sing sing, and if you want to write, write like, do what makes you happy, and I'm paraphrasing, and it's been yours. 

Speaker 2  (22:47)
Put something to that effect. 

Speaker 1  (22:48)
I think to that effect because if her mother that character's mother did not want her singing did not see the value in it until the end of the movie, one of my all top favorite 90s, movies, both of those. 

Speaker 3  (23:03)
Yeah, they're good. I think I got to see it once that was really good. 

Speaker 2  (23:09)
Yeah, II really enjoyed what be Colbert in the 90s. Yes. And then the view happened and I'm not such a big fan anymore, but you know. 

Speaker 1  (23:20)
Uh, yeah, yeah, I get it. 

Speaker 2  (23:23)
But yeah, so that's that's great. II really love that philosophy I like, you know, we're humans and so, it's our natural tendency to like put structure around things and try and make sense of things and you know, you know, make rules about things, but II think that. It's another lesser, celebrated human tendency to To deconstruct, that actively deconstruct that and too, you know, to see what happens, you see what kind of trouble we can get into 

Speaker 1  (24:04)
You know what I've had like group's done before 

Speaker 3  (24:06)
Yeah, I think something about him saying that like a lot of things you can't put into words yeah, I was like, oh I feel like the pressure's off kind of because you can't do it so you know why not see what you can do to get close yeah. 

Speaker 2  (24:21)
Nothing matters, so you might as well just doodle, you don't like words. 

Speaker 3  (24:25)
I think it was a try it so and it was like at a time where I was going through a lot of really difficult emotions and so I was able to like like normally what I would do is just put them in special bottles like away. I'm not dealing with you, right but then if I was like working on it in a poem, it was like kind of a safe place for me to be like What does this actually feel like if I'm trying to express this this? What is it so instead of 

Speaker 2  (25:03)
Yeah, and you know, that's that's actually how I got in the poetry the first time, because the first 2 poems that I wrote were 8 years ago and they were well when I had just got my heart broken. 

Speaker 1  (25:19)
That's how it starts many of the time. Yeah, you know, I tell young people and say you want to be a better poor don't get your heart broken. It sounds like I'm being a Dick, but realco was what it 

Speaker 2  (25:30)
It's gonna happen anyway, so you might as well to make use of the opportunity you know, like the lemon lining, it's the lemon lighting and for own. 

Speaker 1  (25:39)
At least starting 8 years ago, you've already come so far. 

Speaker 2  (25:43)
Well, like I wrote those 2 poems because I was and I think I wrote them like at at the same time, like in the same 24 hour period and then, like I never showed them to anybody like I just I needed to get them out and like like letting the poison out kind of and then they just sat in my drafts for 8 years and Then I went to the open mic at the TV dinner theater and I've talked about this before, but and I saw you know, II listened to the kind of that was my first open mic, where poetry was like a focus because most of the open mics in Seattle that I have been to that. 

Speaker 2  (26:37)
I, you know, kind of frequented, were music focused, or like, stand up, comedy focused. And so I didn't get a whole lot of that, but then I came to the TV dinner theater open mic and people were getting up there and it's like some of them are just f****** around and some of them are like, here's my heart, yeah, it's still beating feel it. 

Speaker 1  (27:09)
It is a place to crow as an artist. I remember when Stephanie got up and did like her section of the musical issues, writing, and I was like another part of that tune is from labyrinth and we need to do. 

Speaker 2  (27:20)
Yeah, we did. We need to 

Speaker 1  (27:22)
And it's not perfect, but it's beautiful, because she's working on something that's so sweet, that's so ambitious, she's 

Speaker 2  (27:30)
I'm so proud for I love my friends. My friends do such cool s*** 

Speaker 1  (27:36)
I think an addendum to and to that is also, cause I, you know, I started it at 7, it was a child prodigy, all that and but growing up and going to open mics, they weren't always their spaces and in fact, my own open mic was twice inundated with a****** White guys who decided that they were going to use racist language and I we tried to make that as safe a space as we can, but it's one of the dangers or The Hazards, rather of an open mic is that anybody can go up in there and say whatever, and if it's not stopped immediately, they're emboldened, and something I learned is because I didn't stop them immediately. 

Speaker 1  (28:21)
It was somebody else but it happened again. 

Speaker 2  (28:24)
It becomes the status quo. 

Speaker 1  (28:26)
Right, and you have to, and it's something, even I've been concerned with previously in the open mic, I attend now that there's no dangerous characters there now, but there was someone who was going there for years who was spouting anti transrhetoric, there was finally a final straw in which she put? One of our poets who was non-binary in danger and and Erica's like, okay, that's it you're out and I was like, yes, like, you know, I don't hate anybody, but at the same time, then, yeah, II refused to engage with that poet. 

Speaker 1  (29:03)
I was polite, but I was really hoping that that would have and that, that would eventually happen, and that she would basically You know, f*** up enough to wear people with because I'm not an advocate for you know, for I'm not saying censorship, you know or anti free speech, but I'm saying you know, free speech comes with a caveat called the paradox of tolerance. It's like you can't yell fire. In a crowded movie theater, you know, there's just something 

Speaker 2  (29:36)
Well, freeze beach is like that. That's a legal framework, and here's the thing you can say whatever the f*** y** want. 

Speaker 1  (29:46)
But there might be consequences 

Speaker 2  (29:47)
But there will be consequences if you say it, a******, things like people will, in fact, label you an a****** and so you know and you might lose access to some people and some spaces that you dearly love. So you know you can see again, whatever you want, but I would just remind people that you know what you say can hurt people II do not buy into the whole sticks and stones could break my bones, but words can never hurt me. That's b******* and we all know like a deep down in our heart that that's b******* words create. 

Speaker 2  (30:29)
What we think about ourselves, we create our worldview based on what we see and what other people say and how other people react to it, and right? You know, that's just that's just life that's that's our reality and when we speak things into existence, you know they're there. And we have to deal with that, and you might as well speak good things into existence or speak about bad things in a way. 

Speaker 2  (31:03)
That they are not glorifying you know, like, lift people up, have compassion and empathy, there's just there's just no reason, no 

Speaker 1  (31:15)
Right? And we all know the 3 of us here and you watching and listening know how powerful words could be, I think it was market Margaret Atwood, who said a word after a word after word is power and that's something that you know we need to think about when even when we're speaking negatively. About ourselves, because your cells are listening and you'll start to feel worse. 

Speaker 1  (31:42)
After a while, uh, it's a fascinating scientific factor. 

Speaker 2  (31:46)
You know, so be nice to yourself. 

Speaker 1  (31:48)
Yeah, and other people. 

Speaker 2  (31:50)
The the easiest way to improve your community is to have greatest for yourself because the people one you will be in a better place to give grace. If you are giving yourself praise and number 2 people will see that yes, and that is contagious and you know hopelessness and and joy are Both contagions, um, and you know, you, you put that s*** out into the universe and it will sprout derivative conversations and thoughts and movements even of reactions and you know we really do choose every day, what we put out into the world and it's just III would like for us especially now. 

Speaker 2  (32:56)
Especially in this time of great The turmoil to try and focus on what we can change and you know, even in your itty bitty, little tiny sphere of influence in your life and your family and in your home with your friends, just do whatever you can to make people feel loved and accepted and move from there. That's all okay and ran, sorry, continue. 

Speaker 1  (33:36)
We sink structures into existence, and that includes power structures and how we think about ourselves sort of engages on how other people might think about us, and before I forget I want to do a pronoun rundown my pronouns are here. 

Speaker 2  (33:57)
Oh my pronouncer, he and they she heard there you go? Yes, II will put that at the beginning. What's the noodle sometimes we put the cart before the horse 

Speaker 1  (34:12)
Sometimes we don't have a horse wherever we use a dog. 

Speaker 2  (34:16)
And of course, I just okay, so that just gave me what like a mental image of shadow pulling the cart in like a grinch like the dog, but yeah, what what's the dog's name in the grinch? Does anybody 

Speaker 3  (34:37)
Remember, but that dog works so hard. He works up his one ankler oh, my gosh. 

Speaker 1  (34:42)
I know the dog you're talking about. 

Speaker 2  (34:43)
Now, if you know the dog's name, shout it out in the comments section, what 

Speaker 1  (34:48)
What kind of horse would each of my dogs be. I know star does? 

Speaker 2  (34:52)
Carla and. 

Speaker 1  (34:53)
I failed. 

Speaker 2  (34:54)
Oh yes, she is so pity she is the tedious than his clients deal. 

Speaker 1  (34:58)
I believe when she's also choppy, so 

Speaker 3  (35:01)
Funny, she was around. 

Speaker 2  (35:03)
So she's a loud barrel, oh yeah. 

Speaker 1  (35:06)
I love my dog lovers. 

Speaker 2  (35:07)
There's so much yeah. 

Speaker 1  (35:08)
And Echo I think she knows the importance of being vocal. 

Speaker 2  (35:13)
He does, she knows there are lessons to learn from starlight. Never shut the f*** up. 

Speaker 1  (35:18)
I'm guess right now, he's complete deeper, and she was the first dog weed, we rescued it in Dallas in 2013 January 2013 and March 2013 Chico, and the shadow just 3 years ago, so rescue, okay, don't go to a breeder. 

Speaker 2  (35:38)
Can you please please? 

Speaker 1  (35:39)
Please, ladies. 

Speaker 2  (35:40)
Do you have any cuts? 

Speaker 3  (35:42)
I do I have a cat yeah, whose name is Toby? She is the war Lord. 

Speaker 2  (35:49)
And told me the more it worked. 

Speaker 3  (35:50)
We were walking our dog and there's this church that normally has a ginger cat who just stays around there and people feed him and he spray, so I was looking for the ginger cat to go pet him and I was petting him and then it's like tiny skeleton kitten came out I was yelling. At me, so I started petting her, and then she continued yelling at me and followed me when we left And she I probably be home and she was like, you have food, I know this need to be yeah, so I started giving her birthda. 

Speaker 2  (36:25)
The cat distribution system works 

Speaker 3  (36:26)
Of course, yeah, she was like I've got this one so I took her to the vet and they were like this is, uh, this is a stray cat. She has been neutered at some point. So I don't know if I'm, I don't know what happened there yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (36:41)
Third, I'd like so I'm assuming, but 

Speaker 1  (36:45)
Yeah. 

Speaker 3  (36:47)
But they're like, this was an adult cat, and I was like, what, but she was just so just Biddy, it's kind of me. 

Speaker 1  (36:52)
Maybe from Alameda. 

Speaker 3  (36:54)
Yeah, so so now she's not how big is he now, I mean she's still smaller than other cats, but she sort of inflated. You can take a 2 of you know, 3 dimensional being yeah. 

Speaker 2  (37:08)
Even. 

Speaker 3  (37:09)
When her tail got bigger, it was funny. She had like this. That is so interesting. 

Speaker 3  (37:13)
It was just your entire long winner, she's shortened. 

Speaker 2  (37:15)
There, okay, so you can like paper, you know. 

Speaker 3  (37:17)
Share it with a tuft at the end and did to an actual cattail, and I was like, oh so oh, she yeah, she was very thin. You want to meet. Yeah, Toby is amazing? 

Speaker 3  (37:28)
Uh, no. 

Speaker 2  (37:29)
Yes, that's such a funny statement and only something that you would say about cats mostly like and she was yelling and so I petted her like she was yelling at me. So I petted her. I think the cat lovers with with definitely appreciate that that gets me, I no longer have a cat of my own, but I have had cats my entire life. 

Speaker 2  (37:54)
So when I came down here, I moved in with my grandmother initially and like to help her around the house and um. She had an adult female cat and I my cat was also an adult female cat and they would have absolutely killed each other, so I left her with my daughter and her girlfriend instead and now she she lives a very cushy life where she is very cared for cause, but you know, Percy's grown. Up with her so like the and she's got a bearded dragon sibling, so her name is Alice, by the way, wonderful from Alice-in-Wonderland I love her, I have my grandmother. 

Speaker 3  (38:37)
Yeah, you've made me think of something that when you're talking about, like words being part of how we imagine ourselves and I was thinking that that part of the thing with the like using poetry to try and find a way to say things because I feel like it also made me think about things that can be said, but that I don't think are being said right, cause it's like I think. I think when I was in high school and just growing up and even in college too I felt like very lonely and unseen, because there were like all of these things that I cared about and I was like, where is this, you know in media and things like that and I'm like this is a approached, you. 

Speaker 2  (39:19)
I stand that to the marrow of my boss, I really do. 

Speaker 3  (39:23)
Yes. 

Speaker 2  (39:25)
Oh, especially growing up around here. You know? Yes. 

Speaker 3  (39:27)
Yeah, but then sometimes I would be at open mice and people would come up and start too, like, even if they weren't talking about the things that I was thinking about, it would still be a very authentic thing, right? And it was like a totally different kind of interaction that I would just have like with strangers. In any other place 

Speaker 2  (39:47)
Right, not surface level, yes. 

Speaker 3  (39:49)
And I was like, okay, yeah, it's like if we can have a conversation like this, then I, can, you know, bring in the things that I'm thinking about? So yes, I love that I love poetry yeah, for being. 

Speaker 1  (40:06)
Very much shelf, Silverstein, the missing piece kind of 

Speaker 2  (40:08)
I think, hmm, ISO II think I'm at a very small demographic of adults whose teachers did not read them. That book, any shell, silver seen anything when I was a kid. So III have a lot of catching out to do. 

Speaker 3  (40:26)
The giving tree. 

Speaker 2  (40:28)
I don't even know no ooh, yeah. 

Speaker 3  (40:31)
I haven't you read that recently and 

Speaker 2  (40:33)
Have you read the ghastly curb Chinese? 

Speaker 3  (40:38)
I love his illustration. 

Speaker 2  (40:40)
Every gory is I love. Oh man, II appreciate his mind. Yes. 

Speaker 3  (40:45)
Yeah, it's like so whimsical and dark yeah, which is great. I feel like shell Silverstein is also whimsical and dark, but with and it's not of light as well. 

Speaker 2  (40:56)
Yeah, in like a Terry, bradget way kind of you know, yeah, like the Terry bradget talks about really dark s***, but he talks about it in such a hopeful like it's been described as hope punk way. Yes, that's amazing that the whole movement like I did not come up with that like there. Are there's a book about it? 

Speaker 2  (41:14)
But I haven't read a friend of mine has but the which I that should probably go on my reading list. Yeah, because actually, I think we all should read that, let's just let's start a book club where we'll have a bear cave book club and the first one is find that book about Ho punk. I will find it and put it in the show notes you just can't remember the name. 

Speaker 2  (41:40)
Of it right now but um, yeah, yeah, II think that that's and we'll discuss it later. 

Speaker 1  (41:45)
Yeah, reminds me of no game into what he does with hope and wonder. Despite all the darkness, the way that Neil Gaiman, right? Yeah, edible American Garden is my favorite book, you don't know that way. 

Speaker 2  (41:56)
Yes, and this is one of those separating the artist from the art moments just in light of me. Recent allegations against Neil gaman, oh yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 1  (42:12)
Yeah, I really hope that's not true whatever it is. 

Speaker 2  (42:15)
You know. 

Speaker 1  (42:17)
Help me for heroes. 

Speaker 2  (42:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, but regardless of how you feel about Neil Gaiman as a human, the way that he writes and the things that he writes out, maybe it's because he has such you know, dark tendencies and I feel like that's kind of AA thing that we we don't talk. About in these like bad person, good art. That they made so the conversations is that maybe they've made the good art because they, you know, live in the abyss, sometimes good 

Speaker 1  (42:53)
You know what? 

Speaker 2  (42:55)
Again, nobody has made the game and I'm disappointed. 

Speaker 1  (42:58)
It's like what women said in, uh. 

Speaker 2  (43:01)
No, not mad, just disappointed. 

Speaker 1  (43:03)
The first line I think in my part, 6 of crossing Brooklyn ferry, that's my favorite part of that poem was was the dark patch's fall apartment. Also, just everybody's got some darkness that they pull from, so you know, some folks had struggle with that struggle against it and it and have those light. Patches as well. 

Speaker 1  (43:26)
And some folks lean into the darkness, and I'm a little of both 

Speaker 3  (43:32)
Yeah. 

Speaker 2  (43:34)
The dark is there, and so if we refuse to acknowledge it, then it develops a personality all of its own, and it hasn' 

Speaker 1  (43:43)
Now you're using as a tool, yeah, you think about the worst aspects of work yourself, and then you use that to write maybe some of your darker poetries, but you're also using that to say, okay. Well, this is who I was tenure years ago, this is who I have become because I have strived to become the light, it's, you know, it's a, it's a struggle. And umbrella, it reminds me of a haiku. 

Speaker 1  (44:13)
I once wrote sorry, I am the chameleon ascending the lighthouse, something about like desperately trying to become the light, so yeah, I'm trying to quote it perfectly, but yeah. 

Speaker 2  (44:32)
That reminds me of an excellent 

Speaker 3  (44:33)
Right, right? 

Speaker 2  (44:37)
What what were you saying? I said that reminds me of an x of mine? Ah, yeah, and mostly because that was kind of the reason for our breakup was like they, our relationship was so healthy that they had finally had the space to think about who they were not in relationship to their partner, and they realized that they had We've been mirroring their Partners, their whole life and once they started like investigating who they were they realized that they weren't as much like me in, like some really integral ways that as they thought that they were so like they was kind of like, oh well. 

Speaker 3  (45:23)
What an amazing gift, though. 

Speaker 2  (45:25)
Yeah, but yeah, I mean like it's a double exactly. 

Speaker 3  (45:27)
The space for that person like you know. 

Speaker 1  (45:29)
You think about the way that the tomatoes grow and they have that whole stick that the Vine can grow and self growth at some point. If you're continuously growing as a person, you will leave that tether, you will descend toward the lake. 

Speaker 2  (45:45)
And you know, in any relationship that I'm ever in, whether it's romantic or not, I you know, I no relationship is more important than the 2 people that are in it individual right? And so IIII want people to be their most authentic sells no matter what that means for me. Yeah, that insect, but I'm not. 

Speaker 2  (46:09)
I am glad that they are more more able to be. They're authentic self and to you know, to develop as a person, so 

Speaker 1  (46:19)
Man, that you really love someone. Sometimes you do have to set them free and let them truly come into their own mm. 

Speaker 2  (46:27)
Yeah, yeah, that's a thing. So we said that we were going to circle back around to 4. 

Speaker 3  (46:32)
Frogs, frogs, frogs okay, yes. 

Speaker 2  (46:36)
What do you have to say about frogs? 

Speaker 1  (46:37)
It's good the way that I love lizards and turtles, Ryan loves frogs. Yeah, these are not the only animals of course, that Ryan loves, but that is, so if if like if like Ryan was a housewife and had like all her kitchen décor would be frogs, the way some were pigs and so much. And I've given her, you can still 

Speaker 2  (47:00)
They'll have house stuff that is from 

Speaker 1  (47:02)
Yeah, actually on her mini like a frog thing. 

Speaker 2  (47:05)
Yeah. 

Speaker 1  (47:07)
When we first met, she had put her number in my phone as Ryan parentheses, frog friend, and I'll never forget it, and I don't 

Speaker 3  (47:18)
I didn't realize that I branded myself that that deeply 

Speaker 1  (47:24)
Yeah, center meets a lizard. 

Speaker 3  (47:26)
Yeah, I have. I have a toad on my business card and then, on the other side of it, I have a frog and a tadpole. That's a good problem and yes. 

Speaker 2  (47:37)
And what's the reason for the frog in the tadpool? 

Speaker 3  (47:40)
Well, I just wanted to to put more creatures on my business card and I needed to keep them in. They wanted there to be like a cohesive theme between the website and resume and the business card and I was like, okay, frogs and toads. 

Speaker 1  (47:58)
Yes, there's that picture of you bent down looking at a frog that is probably one of my favorite pictures of it. 

Speaker 3  (48:07)
Yes, me with creatures are usually my favorite pictures. Because II am just getting to enjoy that experience. 

Speaker 1  (48:17)
Don't you send me 

Speaker 2  (48:18)
The creatures are the best with Coke. 

Speaker 1  (48:19)
It'll be even yes. 

Speaker 3  (48:21)
Yeah, yes, Toby toby, actually depending on how she's sitting. Sometimes she has a frog butt. And she will like she will position her back legs and kind of flatten down exactly the same way that tree frogs do on our like porch at home. 

Speaker 3  (48:37)
So I'm like, yeah, frog butt, which I'm sure she understands and it's like, why are you saying that? 

Speaker 1  (48:45)
I do wonder how she feels about promise. 

Speaker 3  (48:48)
She's hunted them before she will hunt anything that gets into our house. Sure she prefers lizards, though, yeah, I think maybe the size and shape of the lizard is more friendly to her and she's more weirded out by frogs fair enough, yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (49:06)
Yeah, they're, they're a little bit more awkward. 

Speaker 1  (49:08)
Yeah, they're more moist, yeah. 

Speaker 3  (49:10)
They're like that. 

Speaker 2  (49:16)
I'm sorry. 

Speaker 1  (49:16)
I have a friend in it. 

Speaker 2  (49:17)
Just like 

Speaker 1  (49:18)
I don't worry, I'd stop I don't like that word and I'm like. 

Speaker 2  (49:20)
You have 2 friends. 

Speaker 1  (49:24)
Yeah, yeah, you just would like randomly texture the word noise I know which is weird. 

Speaker 3  (49:31)
That's this. 

Speaker 1  (49:32)
That's weird. 

Speaker 2  (49:33)
I love my friend, yes. 

Speaker 3  (49:34)
I love my speaking of embracing your inner shadows. 

Speaker 2  (49:39)
Jerk, love you yeah, yeah, so why for one? 

Speaker 3  (49:46)
Hi frogs. I think frogs and other amphibians also kind of go in the category, like slugs, where they're friend shaped like it's very hard to take damage from a frog of us from frogs are quitting and so the other point is this, yeah, it's like, but also in our area, I don't think any of those are hanging out so it's like we've got Spade, foot toads American toads, and a lot of tree frogs, and so they're like 

Speaker 2  (50:19)
Like I'm woefully ignorant on cost. I really which is ridiculous because like I'm such a like nature fanatic, but likes and new frog pictures, thank you, yes. 

Speaker 3  (50:29)
This is what you need. Yes, I won't describe the hydration level of the frog. 

Speaker 2  (50:37)
That's okay, you care. I love I do I love hearing people talk about stuff that they're nerdy about I have like whatever your passion 

Speaker 1  (50:45)
But I can't count about yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (50:46)
If I like I want to hear about it, I do and like that's that's one reason why we have this podcast. I love hearing about what people love and so, yes, please tell me all about the hydration levels of proxim. 

Speaker 3  (50:58)
Yes, well, yes, I think whenever they're happy, they're they're quite hydrated because they can also like get um nutrients, and I think some of them can breathe through their skin. 

Speaker 2  (51:08)
Yeah, I believe so. That is one frog thing that I know. Yeah, so and that that is for humans as well stay hydrated, babes, yes, everybody go drink water white. 

Speaker 3  (51:21)
I'm working on my water right here. 

Speaker 1  (51:25)
There you go. 

Speaker 2  (51:26)
Bear Harley drinks water. 

Speaker 3  (51:31)
Um, yeah, so somebody was asking me about frogs, and if there's like a deeper meaning there, and I do think I love them just as frogs, without anything, you know, anything no qualified. 

Speaker 2  (51:46)
Of course, but 

Speaker 3  (51:49)
He's a poet, the the metaphors that you can get into with rocks are really delightful, because it's like they, they transform like it's kind of crazy like yeah, they live underwater, they start out being able to completely live underwater and then they do like a full transformation into a like air forest. Creature And they're very sensitive to their environments, and I think they're 

Speaker 2  (52:20)
And I mean, they're infinities, because they do so, they are limited creatures they do live 

Speaker 3  (52:25)
We sort of go-between, even after they transform, they kind of they're yeah. 

Speaker 2  (52:31)
And also, they're the source of a lot of lure, you know, for us, humans like there's the princess and the frog story. 

Speaker 3  (52:42)
Which is really, I'm so fairy tales are a thing that I love and wanna get more into yeah, but that one is super brutal. Yeah, it's crazy at least you know, older versions of it. 

Speaker 1  (52:56)
So many of them are yeah. 

Speaker 2  (52:59)
Yeah, let's not talk about the little little mermaid. Oh gosh, yeah, hi Kristen Anderson was a dark man. 

Speaker 3  (53:09)
I think frogs are kind of interesting because I find them so cute, yeah, but other people find them very weird and alarming, even though they're they're not dangerous at all they're just 

Speaker 2  (53:22)
You know they're slimy yeah, yeah, they're 

Speaker 3  (53:24)
It's a big dynami. 

Speaker 2  (53:26)
Yeah, yes, I love frogs. I love creepy crawlies just generally speaking, if other people hate them, then, I probably like them a lot whatever it is, it's just yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 1  (53:38)
That's ma'am, I think there's something that might endear you to the distinct stages of its growth, the way like like creatures that have this like these distinct like steps in the revolution. It's kind of magic like they're Pokémon. I think AI think of butterflies too oh yeah, then I think of I don't know how the different stages. 

Speaker 1  (54:07)
You can remind us of where we are in life like when I was a little kid, I caught tadpoles like no and lizards like me non-stop and umbrella when we we were in this greenhouse, when I was really young. Yeah, well, it's like I don't know 9 or so, we had one of these like really cheap above ground Poles, but it was pretty high and we loved it, but eventually it fell into Newton. It's not disrepair, but just like not using it, and so all this value started growing there, and I would swimming it anyway, because I was a nasty little kid and um, but there would be creatures in there, and so I started like purposely like throwing frogs in there and like, oh. 

Speaker 1  (54:48)
They're having babies almost when I'd swim in the green like Like pond, like pool with the frogs and things and just feel like alright, I'm a little tadpole and 

Speaker 2  (55:00)
And did you ever have fantasies about being the creature from a black ligan? 

Speaker 1  (55:04)
It was really gross. 

Speaker 2  (55:06)
I did so. That's why I asked him like I that was one of my friends. 

Speaker 1  (55:09)
That would be when I came out of there. Oh yeah, and but II don't know II loved it. I would open my eyes under there probably not advisable, but you know, I was just one of the kids that loved playing in the woods to a certain degree. 

Speaker 1  (55:26)
I remember being, you know, I don't know young enough to not have. If I remember before the internet, I remember being called home and being out there and maybe making a time machine in the backyard of being a kid, yeah, I would. I would, in fact, the 

Speaker 2  (55:48)
Where did you go in your time machine? Yeah? 

Speaker 1  (55:51)
Oh my gosh, that's a great question. Meet a bunch of other kids at 1 point somewhere else like built this time machine? I don't have all kinds of stuff and just went all Uber in time and not that I can remember, but one of the things I would do with lizards is at 1 point, these folks who were basically my de facto grandparents, because I didn't really have any They had this like big wooden house, and in the back of it was they had screened in porch, and they had a clothesline running in the middle of it on the inside the screen, and I would collect lizards like me and this kid who I called my cousin at the time cause he was their grandchild, we'd collect lizards. 

Speaker 1  (56:38)
I'd set cups of water under the clothesline. And I put the lizards hanging from the clothesline for dear life and then I would have the cups of water underneath them and they would drop into the cubs, it would be my own little wizard circus and that's what I named my generative poetry workshop later, which lasted for a couple. Of years with you know me and my co, founders, we did our thing shot out to Craig and Nadia. 

Speaker 2  (57:02)
But lizard circus 

Speaker 1  (57:04)
It's a circus, because there's all about taking you out of your comfort zone, just like I did those lizards. 

Speaker 3  (57:10)
Yes. 

Speaker 2  (57:11)
Don't do that to lizard, no. 

Speaker 1  (57:15)
But they all survived, they were all fine, that's good. 

Speaker 2  (57:21)
Um, where would you go in a time machine? If you could whoa, I know I know yeah. 

Speaker 1  (57:32)
There's a reason I as a white man don't want to go into specifics, because that's a white man's fancy there. 

Speaker 3  (57:39)
Well, yeah, it's no, it's very tricky, because I think there's places that I would love to see, but actually being present, there would be pretty scary, yeah, MI think I would love to see different like when I was little, we homeschooled, and we had all of these awesome like illustrated, natural history books. And um and I and they were like doing the progression of different like epics of of like different types of creatures being kind of flourishing, so I would love to see really old forests and even like not super old forests like you know, 500 years ago or something yeah, sure, cause there were just like Different kinds of things that were alive during that time. 

Speaker 2  (58:42)
Have you ever seen the the movie timeline that was made out of a Michael Crighton book of the same name never heard of that? So there it is like wildly sensationalized, though. I mean, it's, you know, it's like it's a drama but like action movie and it's this hi-tech asshole, who creates a time machine that confects you Back to a time period and then if you had the little button, you know, it can fat you back, but you know so so they've been feeding information from this private corporation to this group of of archeologists who are working in a place that was contested between England and France. 

Speaker 2  (59:40)
You know hundreds of years ago, and the The time that they get, I put it back to was a critical moment of battle and so it is ridiculous, but it's also I think that you, I would enjoy it. That sounds really easy. 

Speaker 1  (01:00:01)
It's a lot of ridiculous movies. 

Speaker 2  (01:00:03)
Yeah, it has oh God, the guy who kill what was died was killed in the Fast & Furious franchise. What is Paul Walker? That's his name, Paul walker in it and also like some folks from like the Harry Potter series. 

Speaker 2  (01:00:31)
There is just like there's a bunch of like of of before they were extremely famous kind of faces in that one and it's fun. It's one of my guilty pleasure, movies timeline, okay, yeah, so 

Speaker 3  (01:00:53)
I have to go watch that. Yeah, and then some thoughts, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (01:00:57)
Hey, I'd love to hear about that and the next recap, we do, but yeah, II think that I would like to, if I were to have access to a time machine and I could go to any place and anytime. I would like to go back to 23 pre Roman Scotland. 

Speaker 1  (01:01:24)
Well, before they, they took it over with Christianity. 

Speaker 2  (01:01:29)
I would like to see what the picks were really like, because yes, they're you know, we know some things, but there's just so much that has been destroyed and distorted, and those are my people, you know I my grandmother, um, did a lot of the raising of me emigrated here from Scotland and then we're we're from like mid Highlands. Traditionally well like half of that family is, but and I, I, just, I am, I'm very interested in that time period and you know, gender constructs, I'm very interested in gender constructs and what that would look like absolutely, yeah. 

Speaker 3  (01:02:12)
I talk to you about awesome. Yes, related to this. Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (01:02:16)
Yeah, okay, what books though like? Oh. 

Speaker 3  (01:02:18)
Okay, so have you read anything by rosemary, subtle? 

Speaker 2  (01:02:21)
Cliff, I've not, I don't even know who that is. 

Speaker 3  (01:02:23)
Okay, so she I want to say that she was in tokens, writing class, maybe okay, so which is just a cool experience to have, yeah, so she, it's like that era of not that long ago, but living in a slightly different world, but she writes historical fiction that is like way far back so a lot of it has to do with Like Roman Empire, interacting with civilizations yeah, but she does it in this very like human way, that's really cool. It's like very much on a like person to person level and not on a we're the Romans TM. 

Speaker 3  (01:03:08)
Yeah, so and she the first book of hers that I read is called the Eagle of the ninth. And it's this guy, I know what that's about Um, um, it's it starts out with this guy who's got his first command and it's of a fort that was like recently built-in this like newly taken over like picked the village, so it's like he's mostly interacting with to those people and they're not really that jazzed about the Romans, but there's like other stuff that He conversations. 

Speaker 2  (01:03:43)
That's what I'm about. 

Speaker 3  (01:03:45)
But it's like it's it's like, very I feel like it's pretty deep and there's a lot of like there's a lot of like room in it for mystery like it's not it's not her trying to tell you how it was, but it's like giving you sort of a way into it, and they do seem to be really well-researched. 

Speaker 2  (01:04:08)
And so there's other guests that would love to look into that and I'm adding that to my umm, my reading list as we speak, yeah, and I edit these, so I go back and listen to him like in detail, so I just, you know, this is my version of taking notes doing nothing. I love it awesome. Okay what else? 

Speaker 2  (01:04:30)
What else what other books? 

Speaker 3  (01:04:32)
Oh, the other one is well, I thought of it because you were talking about gender constructs, I've read this book called animukara and it is II feel like it's kind of it's like a spiritual sort of f***, it's got like some mysticism going. On and it's, I think the person writing, it has a lot of knowledge like he's probably studied. Different forms of Christianity, but also all kinds of other different things as well that he's bringing in, so there's like Sufi poetry as well. 

Speaker 3  (01:05:12)
But the main thing that he's getting into is like old Celtic, kind of understandings of how we exist as people and there were some really cool stuff. That he brought in, but one of the things that he spent a little section talking about was like Ooh I feel like if I can paraphrase it well, but it was about like kind of the way that women exist and that there were some very like beautifully and you're getting these outward ways that that was going on that, that Scott, rather squashed by you know various things, but some of that. 

Speaker 3  (01:06:02)
Stuff like still, you can find it in In really old poems and songs and he like shares, some of them nice. Yeah, it was just really cool. 

Speaker 2  (01:06:10)
I guess I was definitely going to be looking at both of those. Thank you. Yes, thank you 

Speaker 1  (01:06:15)
Yeah, yes. 

Speaker 3  (01:06:16)
So happy to share, yeah. 

Speaker 1  (01:06:19)
What do I think I thought about was your going back to your question is I think if I could interact with my younger self once I would rescue and I would rescue my sister, I would, I think get us out of that situation and let's see how my light turned out from there and maybe a paradox. But yeah, I think I would, II might be more well-rounded, or I could go back to when we were in our second foster home. That actually you know what's healthy and happy and they reacted to our mistakes with not hitting and it was not violence and it was one of the only times I've had grandparents and it was overwhelmingly positive. 

Speaker 1  (01:07:12)
I will always be indebted to the Ferris from being for showing me that there was another way. And I would, I would go back to that point and my mom had we had gone through 2 foster families, a rich one and a poor 1 and then the poor 1 was good and the reason I mean, the portable was bad and Richmond was good and because our mother had lost this to cocaine addiction and I would make it so that we stayed with that family and that they adopted us cause We were doing the best that maybe we however done in our childhood. 

Speaker 1  (01:07:45)
I would have been more. I think, well-rounded, you know, no matter what I'm i'm still here I'm still looking and hoping to I could talk to Lisa, and thank her for being a good mother to to us. Absolutely, absolutely, I've been trying to contact her for a while. 

Speaker 1  (01:08:06)
She's a nurse in Alabama and well, I hope you find out every everything, every single situation the way they handled. It was so different from how I was raised and I realized that there was a better way than when I did things that I would be embarrassed if somebody would Shouted the mountain in front of my sister. He would use code words, he would say, if you don't do this, I'm going to give you, here's a dime, here's a nickel, try your best you know, I was a terrified kid that was slowly acclimated to not being terrified. 

Speaker 1  (01:08:44)
And it was great, I still remember bird watching with the grandfather and the They gave me a music box. I wish I still still had but shout out to the Ferris over there back in time and in for this Alabama. 

Speaker 2  (01:08:59)
Isn't that just so interesting how you know, one all it takes is 1 or 2 people, yeah, to to show us a different way of existing to change our entire outlook like II had that same experience, cuz. II grew up in very tumultuous households, many of them, and when I was 19, and I had my, I had my daughter when I was 18, so I was I had my 13 month old in tow and went to go and stay with my grandfather and his wife, my my as far as I concerned Grandma Leona, she's still with us. I love you. 

Speaker 1  (01:10:41)
So you were talking about your grandmother. 

Speaker 2  (01:10:44)
Uh, yes, my stepgrandma Leona, the first time that I had ever been in a place with people who didn't escalate conflict with each other in a domestic way, yeah, that's that's what's how I grew up, that's what everybody was like, and I we were. I'm driving to a restaurant and I was listening to them argue about something stupid, I don't remember what it was, but I remember just that feeling of like my heart clenching up and Like, just oh God, I like things are about to get bad like I'm about to not enjoy whatever happens next and they deescalated my Grandpa was like, you know, you're right and like he would, he was still in a little bit of a Huff, but not, but they like they still like Hugh didn't held hands when they got out of the car and then they went in and we had a normal family dinner, and I was like, whoa. 

Speaker 2  (01:11:56)
I don't understand what just happened, but I am into it and that just that brought my horizon so much, it's just like in little moments like that can just be like an explosion of consciousness and awareness and I really needed that at that particular moment in my life and I came back and I was like, you know what? I think I want a divorce. That's amazing. 

Speaker 2  (01:12:25)
You know and got back on good terms with my other grandmother and you know she, once we were on good terms, I was like, if I were hypothetically too, leave, you know, could I come and be with you for a while, until I get on my feet and she was like absolutely so I did. I stand there for like see there for 18 months. You know, cause I was pregnant with my second kid I was 6 months pregnant when I got there, so that was a turning point in my life where I just I left a lot of the conflict behind and struck out on my own and you know, decided, like, okay, this is what my life is gonna be like and these are the things that I will tolerate and these are the things that I will not tolerate? 

Speaker 2  (01:13:18)
And I just was able to recognize? Conflict in a different way than I ever was and that there were other options for dealing with it as the way you were saying, like with there are so many things every time that we say something in that moment in time, it is now etched in Stone that we said it, but up until that point there are so many so so so many different ways that we can express whatever it is that we're feeling And it it just a lot of the time, it feels like it's a lot of linear path that, like if this happens, then you have to say this and then, but that 

Speaker 1  (01:14:00)
That's not true at all. No, doesn't tree? Yeah, that splits off into an entirely new timeline, right? 

Speaker 2  (01:14:07)
And the decision tree has millions of options. It's just, it's so interesting the way the things turn it. 

Speaker 1  (01:14:16)
Now, I think sometimes we get trapped in the cycles of generational trauma or just trauma in general, where we think we don't have any other decisions, and by the way, I don't know if I said this in the last podcast, really interesting tidbit, about the different things, the difference between the word choice and the word decision. Because deside has side in it, which you would find in homicide and that other word, which means your like a decision, is more dad sat on one thing, perhaps a choice, I mean linguistically and edible mall, it. 

Speaker 2  (01:14:56)
Etymological, yeah, to my lodge. 

Speaker 1  (01:14:58)
I'm at a modge. 

Speaker 3  (01:14:59)
You're getting so close. 

Speaker 1  (01:15:00)
That's why I would uh, you know? It's all gonna miss  can differ and be like. Oh well, you have made choices, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (01:15:09)
Yeah, like will we decide to do to say everything? I am deciding to talk about decisions right now instead of changing the subject and then going back to so what'd you have for dinner last night? You know that there are just it it reminds me of that movie that came out last year question mark everything everywhere all at once, which has everybody here seen it. 

Speaker 2  (01:15:37)
I love it okay, so for those of you who haven't seen it, the premise is up. That there are multiple dimensions existing all at once. And this, this person, who is in a weird point in their life is given the opportunity to see some of those other dimensions and interact with them and the way that you jump between dimensions is to do something that is so wildly unexpected and out of character. 

Speaker 2  (01:16:19)
I just like getting down on your knees and proposing professing love to the irs auditor you know who is in fact trying to close down your business. 

Speaker 1  (01:16:36)
And it's one of those things where you realize, oh my God, this social contract is b******* I could do this other thing. 

Speaker 2  (01:16:44)
Well, it's not completely b*******, some things are good. We like some of the things in the social contract. When you do something nice, it is good to say, thank you, etc et cetera 

Speaker 1  (01:16:55)
The obligation to act like everything's fine when it's not yeah that that that's I feel like if we're around the right people we know we can you can be like, Hey, uh, yeah, I'm not fine, I don't know, I don't have to pretend like everything. Is, you know to maintain some sense of decency that might not actually exist? I can be I can express my abortions freely, because I don't know that's something that's so reinforced. 

Speaker 2  (01:17:50)
Our recorder is telling us that we need to wrap app right now, so let's let's go ahead and start moving towards that direction. 

Speaker 1  (01:17:58)
Before I forget, I wanted to ask you about allyship and support in the queer community. 

Speaker 3  (01:18:04)
Ooh okay. 

Speaker 2  (01:18:06)
What's happening to you? 

Speaker 3  (01:18:07)
Yeah, what does it mean to me? I think I'm still figuring it out which is delightful, but I think 

Speaker 2  (01:18:19)
And I think most of us are to be fair like the oh yeah. 

Speaker 3  (01:18:21)
Yeah, yeah, I think yes, it's because it, there's so much about it that I don't know it's like I think one of the cool things with open mice is that you, you get to hear people sharing some of their experiences in their point of view and it's like, because of that, I've just realized that I have no idea what people are carrying around with them and what their experience has been Um, so. 

Speaker 2  (01:18:49)
Well, it's a really good reminder. 

Speaker 3  (01:18:51)
Yeah, and it. It's also just really cool for people to be willing to do that, but agree, it makes me think that pretty much as often as I can I want to be really open to paying attention to what other people I have to say and what's actually like going on with them and not thinking that I know even though sometimes you pick up things from people and like sometimes I do pick up things somewhat accurately just by being like empathetic and kind of having A A bit of an intuition, but it's it's like, okay, that's something that's useful, but yeah, I just want to. 

Speaker 2  (01:19:35)
But sometimes people really surprise you. 

Speaker 3  (01:19:38)
Yes, yeah, I think a lot of people do cause we're like, really weird and complicated. 

Speaker 2  (01:19:47)
We contain multitude, yeah. 

Speaker 3  (01:19:49)
Well, one of the things in the Celtic spirituality book that I loved was it was talking about how each person is a world and whenever you're in the space of another person, you are interacting with them, but you're also interacting with their entire history that they've brought with them. So it's like. There is so much there 

Speaker 2  (01:20:10)
Yes. 

Speaker 1  (01:20:13)
Yeah, some folks have more atmosphere than others. 

Speaker 2  (01:20:18)
Atmosphere is a really good way to put it. Yes, yes. 

Speaker 1  (01:20:23)
Yes, mayor. 

Speaker 3  (01:20:28)
So yeah, I guess I like chip for me is about like learning and paying attention and also like asking people like if there's something I can do to help but mostly just like connection in friendship and support, yeah, and yeah, I think I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's by and And we were dating at the time, but but we were talking about earlier in our friendship when I found out that it was by and I was like I was kind of delighted by it because he's very straight passing, so it was just I was just like, wow, that was a secret, see that's revealed. 

Speaker 3  (01:21:20)
And he was like, yeah, I thought it was interesting that you were. You were like so positive about this because at least in his experience, sometimes I don't know he's just running to people who find 

Speaker 2  (01:21:38)
Bisexuality 

Speaker 1  (01:21:39)
I mean, it should be 

Speaker 3  (01:21:40)
Yeah, yep, to be like AI don't know I have no idea what it is, but 

Speaker 2  (01:21:45)
Biophobia is a real thing, and by erasure, and read I, as you know, as a pansexual person, as a bisexual person, II know that we we definitely appreciate when we encounter somebody out in the wild who is bisexual and living, you know their life but also super appreciate when we tell people that we're by, and they're not like You're just faking it or 

Speaker 1  (01:22:18)
It would be like a thing or 

Speaker 2  (01:22:20)
Or um, like, well if you're dating you know the same gender than you're in a queer relationship and if you're not you're in a straight relationship like you know, you're either one or the other and when you're not you're pretending and that's not the case you know 

Speaker 1  (01:22:37)
I haven't even ever like like experiences with women who seemed like incredibly disgusted, that the Biden that they're talking to have had sex with men, and they're not at all interested, even though 

Speaker 2  (01:22:52)
Internalized, massaging, you know, homophobia is like Woo. 

Speaker 1  (01:22:55)
Cool, buddy 

Speaker 2  (01:22:57)
Well it's it's bad, it goes both ways and you know. 

Speaker 1  (01:23:01)
There's more button interest. 

Speaker 2  (01:23:02)
Fertilized misogyny and in fact, it's bisexual like it is everybody, and it's um, you know, so put that in your pivots, but we know 

Speaker 1  (01:23:13)
There's so many that we'll never know how many people are now and will be by and we are not a monolith, and yeah, okay, not not always. You can tell, but um, Walt Whitman buy Freddie, Mercury, buy, that's 2 of my favorite people right there. 

Speaker 2  (01:23:34)
And I guarantee at least 10 of your favorite people are you're your favorite, you know, celebrities or people in person and you don't know about it so 

Speaker 1  (01:23:46)
The bisexual experience is being attracted to, it's just so many people and being like I know that I don't have a shot at most of these people, but if I just I just get this person this particular like if we do the mind mailed and we're like, yeah, okay. We're very like great 

Speaker 2  (01:24:08)
Yeah, like as somebody who will date literally anybody of any gender and the only limitation is, you know, compatibility, like that is. 

Speaker 1  (01:24:27)
I made sure those enough, they're back. Okay, hello, compatibility, they're saying this. 

Speaker 2  (01:24:33)
You know, the compatibility is the only limiting factor you would think that that would broaden my dating pool significantly. 

Speaker 3  (01:24:42)
Yeah, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (01:24:45)
And yet, yet you know, you know, like it is so difficult to find somebody that I'm even remotely compatible with, like on more than 1 or 2 levels, and yeah, it's just so interesting and by the way. 

Speaker 1  (01:25:00)
There's there's this misconception about, like the bisexual people are at least at most of us, and then it's a fifty-fifty thing, and that's not always true. 

Speaker 2  (01:25:11)
Yes, it is a it's a matrix. There are it's not linear, it's not one or the other. It's not right in the middle, it's uh, there are levels, yeah, you know, different people have are more attracted to women or less attractive to men vice versa, specifically more into not binary or gender, not informing people like there's just there's so many different ways to do. 

Speaker 2  (01:25:45)
Sexuality, that is not just hetero or Homo and I yeah, we exist, we're out here and I'm just thank you so much for um before doing what you did and having a positive reaction to that partner that you had in the past and because I it, we don't get that as often. As we should, because we're awesome, by the way, like bisexual people like dating a bisexual person like I could write a book on why it's a good idea, and maybe I will maybe I will, but those of you who are biphobic, or you know, less open to it, you're really missing out 

Speaker 1  (01:26:31)
But I enclosed the gang community, so folks for the game 

Speaker 2  (01:26:34)
Especially the gay community frame, you know, I that has been where I have received the most actually the the most by for by phobia. 

Speaker 3  (01:26:50)
It's by fouriel word, because that sounds kind of great 

Speaker 2  (01:26:53)
It is if it's not like a word word, then it is the name of like somebody's page or like a brand of clothing or something cause I know that I've seen it almost the social medias so, but but yeah, just like, really reveling in your your bisexuality. I would say that that's like a portmanteau between bisexuality and you Emporia, before I guess 

Speaker 1  (01:27:17)
Yeah, oreo, yeah. 

Speaker 2  (01:27:20)
But uh, yeah, we're awesome, and thank you for me. 

Speaker 1  (01:27:23)
I appreciate I'm so glad that we got you on the podcast and I appreciate you guys joining us here today. I just I've been looking forward to this episode for a while and I just know that just you guys being here today, it made me feel like at home and made me feel like so. Much better, I've been struggling with depression, kicking my a**, anxiety, kicking my a** PTSD all that it's been a rough week and went up. 

Speaker 1  (01:27:58)
When I'm around the people I love with the morale creatives, I'm buzzing on my energy up and um II love what I do even when it's hard. 

Speaker 3  (01:28:09)
Hmm, yes. 

Speaker 2  (01:28:10)
Yeah, getting being able to be in community with everyone and spending this time is one of the myriad reasons why we do this podcast, just like strengthening those connections and our relationships and our community and I hope that it also has a similar effect for you as well and that it inspires you to do that. In your own life and with that, I will just say, write or any closing words, any things that you want to say to everybody before we 

Speaker 3  (01:28:43)
Shut down. Yes, I actually have a tiny thing. But, you made me think of this is part of the allyship thing, I think it's like a 2 part thing, and the one is like being curious to know what people's experience is and then also not wanting or needing an explanation for anything I just, it'd be like. 

Speaker 2  (01:29:06)
Oh, we can just exist. 

Speaker 3  (01:29:08)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, cause that's like A. It's such a good feeling to like, be able to tell someone something that you're experiencing and then to be like, yeah, you know, I know. 

Speaker 2  (01:29:19)
Okay. 

Speaker 3  (01:29:22)
Station, but also just thank you so much for inviting me to be here. And it was really lovely to do with it. 

Speaker 2  (01:29:29)
It'd be awesome. Well, I can't wait for the recap episode for those of you that don't know. Ryan is a auxiliary member of our cast and will be joining us roughly quarterly to go over the last several episodes and just kind of give a recap of what we've discussed and maybe some insight there, so yeah, so thank you so much for joining us and we will see you next time on the Bear cave.