This is Disruption
This is Disruption podcast explores the pursuit of creativity and shares the stories of the fearless creators in street art, graffiti, music, photography and beyond, who boldly challenge the status quo, break barriers for others and share their work unapologetically. Each episode is a deep dive interview exploring the lives of artistic risk takers, exploring their motivations, their inspirations, and their take on the power of art, in whatever form they make it in.
The podcast is hosted by Irish street artist and DJ, Did by Rua, based in London.
This is Disruption
ATILA: The Power of Art & Creative Expression
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Have you ever heard of an Urban Artist's Academy? I was delighted to have a chat with the lovely ATILA - A talented artist, educator and inspiring workshop facilitator who has turned his passion for art and graffiti into a powerful tool for developing self expression and transformation in others.
In this chat you'll hear about about ATILA's work with young offenders and students with special needs and discuss his transition from teaching English to leading art workshops across the UK that has paved the way for meaningful change in the lives of many. ATILA tells us about his early days captivated by the vibrant graffiti and street art in London and Europe through to co-founding the Urban Artist Academy, and shares how art can be a therapeutic outlet and a conduit for self-expression.
ATILA's story really spotlights the pivotal role of mentorship and the power of art to instil a sense of ownership and pride. Through art, he champions the idea of fostering community and helping others.
We also chat about the societal perceptions of graffiti versus street art, discussing the complexities and contradictions that street artists navigate daily. This episode is one for anybody who wants to embrace their creative side, and is a reminder that failure is not a setback but a lesson and ultimately a stepping stone to success.
This is a really special chat. Whether you're an aspiring artist or someone seeking inspiration, this episode promises to get you inspired to create and encourages you to leave your mark on the world.
You can find ATILA on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/atila_8t4
Urban Artist's Academy: https://www.instagram.com/urbanartistacademy
And the website for Urban Artist's Academy: https://www.instagram.com/urbanartistacademy
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Hello there. You are very welcome to. This is Disruption podcast, with me, your host Rua. This podcast brings you in-depth interviews with the fearless creatives in street art, graffiti, music, photography and beyond, who boldly challenge the status quo, break barriers for others and share their work unapologetically. Each episode is a deep dive into the lives of artistic risk takers, exploring their motivations, their inspirations and their reasons for their willingness to disrupt societal norms. Some of these stories involve revolutionising their industries, while others are pushing the boundaries of legality with their art. Coming up on today's episode.
Speaker 2:It's powerful, it's nice, it's beautiful, you know, because it doesn't have to look like anything. It's actually the actual process of it. You know, and I think that's how people benefit the most from these workshops. It's not the end product, it's literally the process. With street art, it is on the streets, for the people. You know, art as therapy is such a powerful thing, and that can be any type of art. It's very much you. That's the thing, and that's the thing you know, like we're trying to encourage people nowadays as well. It's individual mark making. So that's something that I celebrated then, something I loved then, and that's something I really celebrate.
Speaker 1:now you know there's no right or wrong. That's what I love. Today's conversation is such a great one. I caught up with Atilla, who is an artist, a workshop facilitator and an all around lovely person. We talk art for mental health, failure and the motivation to try. As always, these episodes are best enjoyed if you listen while you create something. This is Disruption. Today is a good day because I am in the studio with Atilla. Atilla is an absolute legend, a really wonderful person. He is a very, very talented artist. He is also somebody who's encouraging others as a teacher, and he teaches lots of different people in lots of ways. He has been incredibly kind to me and I can't wait to interview him and ask lots of questions. Attila, thank you so much for coming. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm very well. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm really good. Thank you, this is going to be good. We need to do this for a while.
Speaker 2:We have, we have, we have. Finally, we got here. We got here.
Speaker 1:Thank you for coming on. Like I said, you have your own journey and you now help other people, which I am so excited to talk about. You are a really big believer in the power of art, definitely, so one of the things I like to ask and it something I always ask, but for you I think it's relevant.
Speaker 2:What is the first piece of art you either remember loving or making. Oh wow, okay, loving I suppose. Well, there's two really, because actually I suppose when people kind of ask about my journey kind of, you know, into graffiti and kind of street art and stuff, obviously growing up in London I was just blown away by graffiti. So I'd actually say graffiti was like my first obsession, because you know I'm like a self-diagnosed ADHD, but very visual visual. My brain's like a million miles an hour, such a visual learner, you know. So it makes all the sense in the world. So I've always just been amazed and stunned by visuals.
Speaker 2:So growing up in London, all the graffiti I used to see on the track side, street side, stuff like that. I've got a lot of family in Holland so when we were, like you know, driving blah, blah, blah like a million miles an hour. So I suppose graffiti is the first art form that I can remember like fully, fully loving and being like what the hell is that? But then also, I suppose, growing up in quite an artistic household surrounded by artistic people as well. My mum is a French friend who just had a mad art collection. He always had just these crazy canvases and I remember, like as a youngster as well, just being like what the hell are those you know? So like really art speaking to me from a young age, basically, whether that be fine art, graffiti, but obviously graffiti is my first passion as such the thing I love about graph is that it's so accessible.
Speaker 1:You don't have to go into a gallery to see it, it's just there for everybody to see, so I'm really glad it influenced you. You said you grew up in quite an artistic household.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I suppose, just like you know, I mean, my mum was like taking me to like the National Gallery from like a young age, you know. So I remember, just you know, just, and having paintings up in the house and just, yeah, I don't know, my auntie is just like an amazing drawer. She did this amazing drawing of my sister pencil, pencil drawing of my sister, like as a baby, just you know, visuals have always taken me. I just always had amazing art to look at, you know. So yeah, there we go visual upbringing for a visual person.
Speaker 1:I love that, so when you decided to give it a go yourself, can you tell me about?
Speaker 2:that journey? Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. So I actually remember there was like a little graffiti club or something at school when I was like 12 or 13 which just sounds absolutely ridiculous now but I remember there was like an older kid, so I was 12 or 13. There was an older kid called Toby. I remember one lunch break. He like start this like graffiti club and we were just, oh my god, that sounds amazing. So, you know, let's do that. So he went there and he showed me like these black and white european, like graffiti magazines which had all these like panels from, you know, germany and holland. I was just, oh my god again, just blown away. And then I was just like I really, really want to try and do this, I want to try and do this, but I don't think I actually picked up a can until I was like 14.
Speaker 2:I remember going up there used to be a graphitism warehouse over in Coleshelton, so like sort of out of London, south of London, and I remember going there, buying some cans with a couple of friends and then just going back to like London suburbs and painting something there and it's absolutely diabolical. But, like you know, I was just like, oh my God, I finally get to put like can to wall, you know. So obviously just completely teaching myself, but it was, yeah, it was shocking. But then I didn't actually really start painting again until I was like, you know, till like 2003, really, I think I messed about with spray paint a few times but I still loved graffiti, but I wasn't actually painting it, you know, until like 2003, really.
Speaker 1:But I really but.
Speaker 2:I did my first thing in 1999. So so what happened in 2003 to make you really take it? Yeah, I suppose, yeah, I don't know, because I was studying art at school and then painting graffiti on the side. So I suppose with fine art I was doing a level art, or even from GCSE both with GCSE art, I had a teacher who allowed me to copy these pictures of graffiti and that's how I, kind of like, really was allowed to explore this mad art form, you know. But even then I wasn't really doing anything.
Speaker 2:In spray paint, I tried it a few times, but I still had the love of, you know, the aesthetics and everything. And then it's when I went on to do art at a level, so, but that was more working with oils on canvas, the graffiti was just very much separate and I suppose that was always the, that was always the case until I went to university, kind of thing. You know, like the graffiti was one thing, that was one discipline, and then the, then the art, was another thing. I didn't really see them as the same thing, you know. I saw them as two separate discipline. But yeah, I don't know what happened in 2003. I think I just felt it was time, time to start painting some pieces, and that's that's what I did when you study art, it's obviously so different to actually the rough and ready ways of the streets.
Speaker 1:So what was the difference for you when you've just been in this really very structured environment and then you have the freedom to hit the walls? So what did that feel like, the difference?
Speaker 2:I suppose it's just like you know, with art, anyway, it should be free, it doesn't have to be anything, it doesn't have to be this, doesn't have to be that. So I suppose that was the beauty of graffiti for me, you know, it's wholly your own style, your paint, even though you're obviously taking influence from other people and stuff like that. But really, like you know, you're putting your own letters together, your own word together. It's your piece, it's your style, it's your journey. You know what I mean? It's kind of, it's very much you. That's the thing and that's the thing you know, like we're trying to encourage people nowadays as well, it's individual mark making. So that's something that I celebrated then, something I loved then, and that's something I really celebrate now. You know there's no right or wrong. That's what I love what a good answer.
Speaker 1:I totally agree. The thing I love about it is it's just pure expression and there's no rules. It's whatever you want to put on a wall and then you can walk away and there's no, it doesn't need to be good like you said, it was diabolical at the beginning yeah, but there's no need for it to be everyone has to start somewhere.
Speaker 2:That's part of it as well, though, isn't it, you know?
Speaker 2:it's actually, you know, it's uh, it's good to kind of mark because it it marks your journey. Because if you just rock up and just paint something epic even though I know some people whose first pieces, first things were like pretty bloody good, but like you know, it's very rare, very far and few between so actually you know it's important to start off shocking and then just really mark your progression and you know, 22 years later, still painting shocking stuff, it's all good, don't you worry? Don't you worry about that?
Speaker 1:no, your stuff is amazing. The thing I really like about your work is it's super colorful yeah, that's what I think.
Speaker 2:That's just from the boldness, isn't it in your face? I suppose it is very unforgiving in that sense, graffiti, that's what I loved about it. It's kind of in your face. Uh, I think 90 odd percent of people will always like it. Not everybody's always going to love it because obviously art's subjective, whether that be art on the streets, art in the gallery. But you know, with street art is it is on the streets for the people. You know, that's what I love, that's what makes it so powerful. 100, and even for those who don't even if you paint a piece on the street, if you know a few people don't um like it, but at least they're engaging with it and that's something you know what I mean. So it's kind of at least engaging with the work itself. You know you get to question them what is it you don't like? And that's fine, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you mentioned. You said that you had a really good teacher. That let you practice graffiti styles and try it out for yourself. Now I know that you are actually somebody who teaches other people yourself, and I have been to see you.
Speaker 2:Yes, you have. You very kindly came and helped us out for a day, didn't?
Speaker 1:you. It was so good, was it?
Speaker 2:summer school. Was it during summer school or half term or? Something like that you came to one of the day, one of the five hour sessions, didn't you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, yeah, it was like a full day session. And it was so good. It was so fun we hung out with the kids. You taught them all about the history of graffiti. I learned some things good, good, yeah it was really good. And then they got to try lettering, they got to try stencils they got to have a little play around with what they wanted to make, and then they went outside and had to go on the walls 100, yeah, yeah and it was so engaging, super interesting.
Speaker 1:I loved it. I know all of the kids did as well, but it was fantastic.
Speaker 2:I would love to hear how did all of that journey come about and how you ended up doing the Urban Artists Academy okay, there we go, I suppose, uh yeah, I mean it's like a no-brainer, I suppose really just to answer in the immediate, but I will go into more detail. But I suppose at the moment I feel more kind of passionate about sharing the art form. Obviously I still paint for myself now as Attila the artist, and I do paint for myself. Obviously I still do commission stuff as myself, but, I don't know, I'm just more kind of focused or just more, I don't know. I feel more dedicated, more inspired to kind of share the art form. You know, that's something I think is really beautiful. But I suppose, like I said, my whole artistic journey has just been sort of a bit here, a bit there, because I've only been working as a full-time freelance artist for like five years. But since graduating from from union 2009, I've kind of you know, straight from there, I've.
Speaker 2:Obviously I was painting graffiti, painting street art. I started doing some workshops up in manchester, which is where I studied, in 2010. I remember doing graffiti workshop up there. This place called unity radio. They used to do like graph battles and there was a shop there and that was crazy. I was like what I'm getting paid to do graffiti workshops? This is mad, you know.
Speaker 2:But then from then I went on to work full-time in like inner city schools doing learning support, so working in areas like Moss Side, working with ADHD kids, working with a lot of special needs kids, working in rough inner city schools. So I was getting a real insight into the whole education side as well, even though it was essentially going back to school, which was quite boring in some ways. But I really saw that some people really needed some guidance, you know, like kids who were deemed really naughty but actually no, they just couldn't. They literally physically, they had a chemical imbalance in their brain, they just couldn't concentrate, you know, and actually I think that because and actually now me being self-diagnosed adhd I think I had the right energy to mix, you know what I mean to kind of like counterbalance them or to kind of even like blend with them, to gel with them, you know. So basically that I mean you know it's been a long journey, sort of working in education in loads of different roles, because then I've you know, I lived in spain since I was teaching english as a second language.
Speaker 2:I've worked in inner city schools in london since then, working with severely autistic kids, working with down syndrome kids, a lot of, like a lot of special needs kids, and that really touches my heart. I think that's really beautiful. And even with that, even though I was working, like you know, school environment, I was running art clubs, so whenever I could incorporate the art, I was just like, yes, happy days, all over it, all over it. And I suppose it's just like a progressional next step to kind of you know, I don't know to make this the kind of thing you know, because obviously I've been working as a full-time freelance artist doing mural painting and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But the Urban Arts Academy actually came about with a friend of mine, very good friend of mine, who basically helped me establish this as a thing I was already doing about, you know, just over a year ago, and we were just like, right, actually, this is what you do. He came along to one of the workshops we did out in kent. He was like this is great, let's turn this into a thing. So this is basically what we've done and in a year we've already, you know, like achieved a lot, which is great. So only getting bigger as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bigger and better. So you find yourself working in education, yeah, and helping kids and developing them yeah had you ever planned to do that? Was that ever part of the plan?
Speaker 2:no, I suppose. No, it wasn't really. I mean, I suppose even with I was like teaching English at summer schools from quite early as well, I think, from like, even before uni, from like, maybe from the age of 19 or something, it's just a little. You know, my mum had a friend who used to organize these, like I think it. It was kids from Austria used to come over and they would do sightseeing in the afternoon and they needed like a couple of hours of English in the morning and I did like a very basic TEFL.
Speaker 2:But you know, I've never been studious, I'm just I think I have the right energy levels to teach. You know what I mean. It's that kind, literally just conversational English, you know. You just make it fun, language games, boom, you know. Then they go sightseeing in the afternoon. So I suppose working with youngsters from a young age was something I saw I was good at, you know, and that was, like I said, from teaching English or working in kind of you know schools or even doing these graph workshops quite early on as well, it all kind of just.
Speaker 1:I can imagine that it's super rewarding to see somebody have access to art and to be able to express themselves, especially if it's somebody who's severely autistic to give them this outlet. Is there any cases that you can remember where you remember teaching anybody and really seeing something come out for them?
Speaker 2:I suppose, like I said, when I worked at a school, I worked at a school called High Shore, which was a school for kids with complex needs in Peckham. I worked there for about three years. That was maybe from about 2012 to 2015. And that was just such a lovely little school and there was a lot of kids with Down syndrome, a lot of kids with autism, a lot of kids with global development delay, and when I used to run this art class on Wednesdays, it was just so nice and there was, just, like you know, a lot of the autistic kids were just really, you know, it's just like watching them, just enthralled with the marks they were making. You know what I mean? They were literally just like lost in it both sides, like, wow, this is, you know, it's powerful, it's nice, it's beautiful, you know, because it doesn't have to look like anything. It's actually the actual process of it. You know, and I think that's that's how people benefit the most from these workshops. It's not the end product, it's literally the process, you know 100.
Speaker 1:It's tapping into creativity. I think the best feeling in the whole world is flow, 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:If they could package it up and sell it.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. Box of flow, boxes of flow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, that would be ideal it would. But it really is pretty magic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really is. Art is powerful. You know, art is powerful, it really really is. And then I suppose even you know it kind of makes sense I was living in Spain from 2016 to 2019 or 2015 to 2018 or something. Anyway, when I came back, I actually applied to do a master's in art psychotherapy. That's the reason why I came back. Yeah, one of the reasons I came back that was to do the course at Goldsmiths, and I remember actually I submitted my application in February and they didn't get back to me until June and they were like right, okay, yeah, your interview is in three weeks and you have to this, this, this and this already. And I was just like, well, that's not happening, that's like ridiculous. So anyway, I was like, let me just put this application on the back burner.
Speaker 2:I was working at school in Camden at the time, painting a lot for myself as a tiller, and then I was working at a school in Camden and I was like, well, I've got money back to like how powerful art is, because actually I was volunteering one day a week for an art therapy charity called the Art Room and they used to work at primary schools in North London and they used to work with kids who either suffered bereavement or kids who bullied other kids or kids who had experienced bullying, and it was this really lovely kind of insight into, like this world of art therapy and like how you know you're not.
Speaker 2:I suppose, maybe when people think of art therapy they're like right, okay, right, so they've drawn this, this and this, so this must mean that, that and that, but actually you're creating a creative safe space where kids or people, anyone, any age, can come and sit down and they're more open to telling you their woes, or you know what I mean. It's like a creative safe space because I think and I say this time and time again everyone should be in therapy. Adults, everyone should be in therapy right, should we high five?
Speaker 1:that I think I think you should, before you get what? Me particularly, no, every human. You definitely should I really think that before you leave high school you should have mandatory therapy 100. That gives you the tools to listen life is tough, like no one's got life figured.
Speaker 2:It's hard for an intelligent adult to articulate what it is they're thinking, let alone a troubled child. Do you know what I mean? So, actually, if you think about that and that's why I think it's so beautiful, in this day and age you have creative therapy as an outlet. So you have like dance therapy, music therapy, sound therapy. I have some friends who run. You know this amazing sound. It's called Found in Sound like sound therapy. They're both. They're both drama bass hits, oh yeah, mc Voice and Ria, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So they run like sound therapy. I have friends who do like music therapy. My sister does like drama. You know drama stuff as well. So you know, I think art as therapy is such a powerful thing, you know, and that can be any type of art instead.
Speaker 1:But also I think, like I said, I really have this belief that everybody, before they leave school, they should have mandatory therapy to give them the tools on how to cope with life, Especially when you're a teenager you're full of hormones 100% God.
Speaker 2:I wish someone had given me therapy.
Speaker 1:I'd be so much more better equipped for life 100%.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's something we can try and change. Try and get that into the school system. There's can, uh, try and change, try and get that into the school system. There's a lot you know, in terms of school system as well. I think there's a lot which they should, should change. You know, really, like in terms of giving you functional skills for for life. I don't feel like that's really what we were given. You know, we just had tax season. Yeah, I love that. I was working on stun stun properly. That was lovely happy days. Yeah, yeah, it won't be eating till next next january, that's okay but those are the things that you don't learn about yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:How to drive a car, how to do your taxes, yeah, functional skills, functional skills watch this space, functional skills and art therapy.
Speaker 1:There we go, we're coming for you exactly, yeah, yeah, definitely speaking of art as therapy. Another thing that I know you do you are working with people who are in custody and serving sentences yeah, some of them doing long sentences as well yeah yeah, yeah, yes, I am yes, yes, yes, yes, but um, because obviously I want to mention joy collective. I'm just trying to think whether to mention at the beginning no, no, we'll go back, okay.
Speaker 2:So that's good, though, yeah but maybe I could no, no, I can work this in, don't worry you know, you could say uh, because you could say, because really I owe it to them in terms of me becoming a full-time artist, okay, I'll go back, I can work this in. I told you natural so obviously art you.
Speaker 1:It's so obvious how passionate you are about this. So when you came back so you were working in schools, you're teaching kids you came back to london, yep, and then you've been doing art for yourself as a freelancer now, but before that, what were you doing?
Speaker 2:so before freelancing was pre, so actually was broken up for me by the pandemic and I know on like a global scale it was catastrophic, but for me, like it was, it really gave me time to do like yeah, I just I thrived basically and I feel bad saying that because you know that was what a shit show that was.
Speaker 2:Can I swear yeah of course yeah, that was just utter madness, obviously, that you know, just like on a global scale. But for me amazing because you know, me and my girlfriend live in this amazing house, amazing shared house on Peckham Rye we had this wicked you know, just wicked house. I was put on furlough. I was working full time, I had a studio, so that was. I just moved into my first art studio before pandemic and I was actually going to give it up at theviour. I used to spend so much time in there and I was just thriving. I was just painting loads around my area, loads of like boarded up places. It was wicked. It was so like such an amazing time, you know, but I was still teaching. So I was teaching English as a second language to like kids from around the world. So that's what I've been doing pre-pandemic. I was doing that during the pandemic the kind of like teaching started to fizzle out kind of, but like I think I subconsciously was making that happen because I was like, well, actually, you know, art is what I really enjoy, you know, it's what I really want to try and do, I suppose. And then I suppose the people I really owe it to obviously have to mention is Graffiti Life, david, Speed, yonah because actually without them I wouldn't really be able to have gone full time as an artist. So obviously I met David at his first exhibition. I'd been following his journey and then Claudia and I my girlfriend and I went to his exhibition, met him. Really nice guy. We just hit it off straight away, such you know, just good vibes, good vibes guy. Then he just hit me up a couple of weeks later. He's just like do you Chelsea Flower Show? And I'd never done such a systematic professional. You know what I mean. I've done like a lot of commission stuff but it was all systematic with you know the cans labelled and numbered and stuff like that. I was like this is madness. I basically got onto their books that way and you know, with the stuff I was doing, my personal commissions and the work they were offering me, it kind of enabled me to go full time. So grateful to you guys, love you, love you. And then with them as well, I've been doing like kind of you know, corporate team building workshops. So I'd never done an adult team building graffiti workshops.
Speaker 2:And then a couple of years ago they actually sent us into myself and another artist, snow. They sent us into HMP Aylesbury, which is like one of the most violent young offenders prisons in the country. They sent us in two years on the trot, both times for two days, and this was to work with young lads to create a mural, and it was just like such a empowering, crazy experience because it made me so sad in one sense, because you kind of feel helpless, but then in such a short time you strike up such a beautiful bond with these lads who were like some of them are doing hefty sentences you know there was already a few lifers. Some of them are only doing five years, which they consider light work. It's not like what, dude, five years isn't like what some of them are talking about. Their release date 2045. They're like, you know, 18, 19 year old guys. It's madness. So you know it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, incarceration's a mad one, but like I think those initial prison workshops we did for them was such an amazing eye-opener and I was like, wow, like there is such power in this. You know such power in art, because actually the key to a successful workshop, whatever your age, whatever your ability, whatever your background, is a sense of ownership, and that's something we always try and put across because, whatever your history, whatever it's like a sense of ownership, something that you have contributed and something you get a chance to look at and feel, feel proud of and own it. You know, and that's what the urban arts academy really that's what I'm so proud of trying to achieve and really try and push and put across in every, every workshop. You know, yeah, what a journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah that's really incredible.
Speaker 1:So there's lots of things I want to touch on there, so we'll talk about a few of those things. Number one was joy collective graffiti life at the time yes, which is what we met, wasn't it yeah? Exactly so. David is so wonderful, so kind, really helpful, and I'm delighted that that was how you ended up working there. He saw this and contacted you, yeah yeah, yeah, no, he hasn't.
Speaker 2:No, he's a special being. Yeah, no, he's almost been like a mentor or something. You know something. I suppose he started off with my boss really, but then actually, you know, we've kind of spent time together. He actually took me away on a project with him in spain painting, helping him on his stuff. We just spent a month together in northern spain and basically just became like mates. You know, just really just got on really well. We just get each other and you know we have a lot of things in common. You know what I mean. We just get each other, you and, yeah, he's really helped me. They both have, you know, they really really have. So, yeah, I'm very grateful, very grateful to those bozos.
Speaker 1:There's something about having somebody believe in you, though 100% yeah. And you are now doing that for other people, which is amazing. You're paying it forward. You talked about your work in prisons, those few days that you spent two years in a row.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know now that's something that you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're doing another one at the moment for a place called Oasis Restore, which is basically England's first secure school, which is essentially a prison. So there used to be a Young Offenders in Rochester and Kent which got closed down a couple of years ago because it was just really violent. And I think, yeah, just basically the conditions were just really bad. And and I think, yeah, just basically the conditions were just really bad. And they've opened up this new place called Oasis Restore and it's amazing because they just reached out Again. They reached out to Joy Collective. You want to put them in contact with me. I spoke to this lady called Emma. She's the one who runs it and what they're doing is insane. It's mad.
Speaker 2:It's really beautiful no-transcript prisons, but they're basically trying to, because it's the first of its kind. They're trying to engage them as much as possible, especially with the weekend activities. So they get like boxers in boxing gyms in, they get basketball teams in, they get myself in to do some art and the idea. With me and them we are building a body of work which we're then going to exhibit and hopefully get their friends and family or the family and friends down at the end of it Again, it's that feeling of ownership. You know, some of them are wild, but some of them are hard to manage, but actually you use the energy. You know what I mean. I've really enjoyed what I've done so far with them. It's really really good, really good, and they're in full-time education during the week, so it's a secure school, but essentially it's a prison, you know. So, yeah, it's really, uh, really fascinating so that's yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm currently doing that at the moment what is it like?
Speaker 1:because I can imagine that you are encouraging them and you want them to see their abilities. How is it, knowing that you can only help them in that capacity? Yeah, yeah and they have so much else to deal with yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I suppose it's like for them it's like a momentary pause from their reality. Yeah, essentially, isn't? It's like a form of escapism, and that's that thing. In hmp aylesbury I remember, like you know, one of the kids particularly just telling me his he was on um on a manslaughter charge and he was just like I think he got 12 years but he's going to serve like six. And he was like, yeah, you know, I'm lucky. I'm just like, really, are you lucky? Six years, still six years. And actually, you know, he was just like, yeah, but it could have been worse. I'm like could have been worse, could have been much better.
Speaker 2:But the thing is, is that, look, I mean, they come from a place of struggle. Some of them just made awful decisions, awful, awful decisions. You know there's no getting around that terrible decision. Some of them like wrong place, wrong time. I've had some friends. I had a very good friend of mine from school got life in prison. Very good friend of mine, because associations are basically there. Three other people one of them killed this guy because he was there and they wouldn't give each other up. They all got life, you know, and I know that he didn't deserve to be in prison. So it's that, you know you don't really know people's stories. I remember as well.
Speaker 2:A couple of weeks ago they were asking me to work with someone who was on a sex charge, a rapist, essentially. He obviously can't mix with the other prisoners and like it's hard at the same time, because you have to remain impartial, don't you? You're there to like facilitate their crimes, but when you do know their crimes and something like that, how do you actually try to kind of remain impartial? You know it's a very nuanced situation, isn't it? But you don't just want to disregard kids who like even these youngsters. So there's a 17-year-old doing life. He'll be in his 40s when he gets out, but then what? You just forget about him. Then you know what I mean. So everybody kind of deserves a second chance, within reason depending. Some crimes are just awful and unforgivable, but it is a very complicated one. It's not black and white is it?
Speaker 2:you know, definitely very nuanced and kind of what I meant by that is, how do you do this job and not take it home with you, yeah, no, I mean, the first time I did I did, I did take over me because it is really, even when I was doing the art therapy charity, the art rooms, I remember the seven-year-old kid telling me some dark stuff, you know, and you're like, oh my god, you know what I mean and that's you're just. But I suppose you know you have to. Just, I don't know if you want to get on with it, I don't know. Just what do you do? Do you just like crumble? But I remember, like the first year I did aylesbury, I came back and I'm, you know, I felt really sad.
Speaker 2:My girlfriend's, like, are you okay? Like I just felt really sad, you know, because you feel so helpless and I, like, I felt really bad for them, generally, felt so bad for them, you know, because they haven't even started living their life yet. You know, and like, and actually, if they're, I know it's different because they're in a different situation, so they're going to behave in a different way. But these young, charismatic, lovely guys, you know, with good sense of humor, but actually, like you know, they just made an awful, awful decision. They've got a long sentence ahead of them and you just feel really bad for them. You know, we're really bad for them, so it's just like here's a bit of a head fuck really.
Speaker 1:The one thing that's positive is that you are giving people an outlet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I suppose the whole thing you know with Urban Arts Academy is art is inclusive. It's not just for you, it's for everybody. Well, whatever your level of art, that's the most beautiful thing literally, from kids to adults and everything in between, all ages, all abilities, all races, all backgrounds, everything you know, art is inclusive. And you know, I think, uh, that's something that we should celebrate, you know absolutely.
Speaker 1:you've talked about being freelance and that is something that comes up on these podcasts quite a lot, because for a lot of people, freelance is the dream, not in january when the tax money comes, but for most people freelance is the dream, not in January when the tax money comes, but for most people freelance is the dream. So how did you make the decision to go that way?
Speaker 2:I think it was a natural progression. I think it kind of just made sense, because I've been working in schools and stuff for years and years and years. The opportunity just presented itself. It was just the right time and actually, you know, I've sort of managed to save a little bit of money and I was like, okay, right, I know that it's inconsistent or not inconsistent, your money at the end of the month is not guaranteed. But I was like you know what? I've got a couple of months rent, so I'll be all right. And then that's kind of been the journey. It's kind of been the story ever since and it is very much a rollercoaster. Last year was a good year. I had a really, really good personal projects, it was winning, and even january hasn't been bad either, been a good, good month. But, um, nothing's guaranteed with. You know, with freelance it is very much a roller coaster, keeps you on your toes. One month you're being eating lobster, next month you won't be eating.
Speaker 1:So so a lot of people that I talk to it's something that I've asked a few people now and people who do listen to this. A lot of them are creatives or artists and like a variety of other people, but a lot of them are in the creative space. Yeah, what advice would you give to people that really want to pursue the dream?
Speaker 2:do the do, do the damn thing, just do the damn thing. I don't know. I mean, consistency is key, isn't it like? I'm definitely no david goggins, but consistency is key. You know, like if you really really want to do something, apply yourself and do it, just do it. And you know, obviously you're gonna fail, fail, fail and fail and then fail, and then you might succeed. You might fail again and then you might succeed, who knows? But you have to be consistent. Motivation is everything as well, isn't it? Without motivation, without passion, you have nothing. So I think you're only going to be motivated if you're passionate, and if you're passionate you're good, aren't you really? So that should really. You know, apparently you can pay your rent with passion exposure. No, but yeah, you just have to stay consistent. And it's hard to do, it's really hard to do. I really need to try and take my own advice sometimes, but you see, yeah, it's difficult, it's tough, it's tough.
Speaker 2:The freelance gig's tough, it's a tough one. Be prepared for that. I think you know once, you kind of know that. Be prepared to fail definitely, without, without a doubt, because you know you will, you will, you hard.
Speaker 1:Failure is a topic I love talking about actually I work in a corporate job. One of our phrases that we throw around all the time is fail fast, Because failure is inevitable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But if you fail, you just fail fast.
Speaker 2:You can't learn without failing, can you? It's a classic thing, something you hear over and over, and, over and over.
Speaker 1:But over and over, but actually, I think, until you really experience it properly then you'll understand it.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, because you learn and then you iterate and you get better all the time you're. If you're open to failing, yeah, you'll learn from it and you'll try again. One of my colleagues he is in no way creative, he's incredibly intelligent, very, very technically minded. Whatever project we were working on, we were talking about somebody else that was very scared to fail, whereas he and I both embrace change, embrace failure, but learning and going, iterating, yeah. And he said this amazing quote that I wrote down and then painted that said if you never fail, you're not trying hard enough yeah, okay, I like that, I like that, I loved it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that rise he just, he threw this out there and I was like, well, I'm writing that down, I'm gonna paint that. I think it's so. If everything's safe and you're never failing, you're never learning.
Speaker 2:Well, you're not pushing yourself, ultimately, are you? I think you know you need to. It's that classic thing. You need to kind of, you know, be comfortable being uncomfortable, that kind of thing, you know. But I suppose, as humans, we kind of naturally want to just stay safe, don't we, you know? And I think, push themselves really, in a grand scheme of things, that really push themselves, you know, and it's those elite people, people who've reached an elite level. They're the ones who really push.
Speaker 1:They just live in a world of pain you know, I would love to be like that. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So something I would love to come back to is the topic of people who are incarcerated in the iron prison. We had spoken off my just before this about how, unfortunately, graffiti is something that can get you sent there which we both think is very unjust.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as somebody who's taken the brave step to go and show your art on the streets to do graph, were you ever worried that this is something that could happen to you?
Speaker 2:well, I suppose to be honest, I didn't do enough illegal graffiti to to get me to get me a prison sentence. You know, I definitely painted illegally, without a doubt, because I can, you know, I did definitely paint graffiti. I did definitely enjoy some elements of it more than others. Tagging I was never big on, just because, a my hand styles was rubbish and b like it was just never. Yeah, I don't know, I was more interested in like painting pieces wherever that could be. But you know, tagging was never something I was big on, something I did because I felt I should. But yeah, I don't know, it is a mad one though, isn't it? Again, it's quite nuanced in terms of is it just for, like you know, is it justified for, like graffiti artists to go to prison, especially when it costs a taxpayer this amount of money per year? Having friends who went to prison for graffiti, it's all a bit. It is a bit mad really, because is it a crime? I don't know. Yeah, I suppose you shouldn't be writing there or painting there, but I mean, there's definitely worse crimes and there's definitely people who got lesser sentences for like worse crime, you know. So it's all a bit kind of a bit all over the place, you know, I don't. Yeah, I think it's a bit crazy and we were saying off air as well. So some of my friends, dpm crew, was sent to prison the same day. They got sentenced. We're all over at crown court and I remember that same day was the opening of, like a big street art exhibition over the tape modern, so. So, where they had, like you know, I think, like Shepard Fairey was there and they had Orgemios, the Brazilian twins and JR and they painted the outside of, like you know, this massive building right there on Millennium Bridge, the Tate Modern. So it was a bit that's a bit confusing and that's I suppose.
Speaker 2:You know, you do have that whole ongoing thing about graffiti versus street art and, you know, is one better than the other, which is more important? And that's why actually was really really important. Hence the name urban arts academy, because actually I don't want to say I'm a graffiti artist, I'm a street artist, I'm an artist and same with urban arts academy. It's like urban art. So that can, like you know, that is that's graffiti, that's street art, that's everything in between. It's like doesn't have to be this, doesn't have to be that, you know.
Speaker 2:And with the workshops as well, as you saw, like the beginning, it's good to give some context like where, where were the first like you know, kind of like paintings in, like you know from, from the first cave paintings all the way through to, you know, like modern graffiti, new york, philadelphia. I think it's important to kind of take people on the journey and really show them. But obviously, ultimately, like, street art wouldn't exist without graffiti and that's, that's a fact, you know, that is a fact. I think you still get some graffiti purists, a lot of like oh they're painting street ass rabbit. But you know, I think, just whatever everyone's just do whatever they want to do, really, you know it is what it is, it is what it is, you know, I think just let people get on with it I agree.
Speaker 1:In my opinion, either way, whether you do graph or you do street art, it's expression.
Speaker 2:That's the point yeah, yeah, exactly yeah, yeah. And where you decide to do it, it's up to you. Like you know, a lot of the illegal stuff I see about it's just like wow, you know, it's real balls. It's how the hell, you know, you have to have real guts to do it. You're just like wow, you know. So people really put themselves out there, people literally risk their lives for this art form. It's just like wow, you know, it's amazing. And when they're actually doing stuff in style as well, you know, like you know, obviously, london and beyond, around the world, some of the stuff you see is just that insane next level. But, like I said, that's the same for illegal graffiti and legal and illegal street art, legal street.
Speaker 2:I think, people, if you're putting your stuff out there regardless, happy days like good on you. You know what I mean. Nobody can tell you where to be putting your stuff, because it's up to you. It's your journey, isn't it? So it's your mark. Leave it where you want. We on the tree. You want to weigh on the tree. You do your thing you do your thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like we have said. It's so powerful massively powerful. Yeah, yeah, beautiful, yeah, it really is, really, really is so if there's somebody who is interested in trying but they're not there yet, yeah, what would you say to encourage them?
Speaker 2:I mean in this what in terms of picking up a spray can, or with art full stop, or just both, both Well, I suppose, just do it, literally, just do it, just do it and fail. Yeah, just do it and just paint something shocking and just like own it, and that could be, you know, literally like a sketch on paper, or you know, a can on a wall, like whatever can on a board, paint on a piece of cardboard, whatever, just literally go and make a mark, go and create, go and do something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely make your mark, it's true. However, just a little disclaimer it's very addictive yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:You're going to get addicted.
Speaker 1:You will, you will, for sure before we wrap up we're almost at time. Sadly, time goes so fast it does but we're almost at time. I know that you and I are both former Amsterdammers, yes, and that we didn't overlap, unfortunately unfortunately but you have traveled extensively and you've lived abroad in lots of different places, absolutely talk to me about traveling, traveling.
Speaker 2:Well, I suppose it's uh, really really important to me because, uh, you know, I was brought up in a mixed race household. My mum, so my dad's english the most, the most english guy, and then my mum is from dutch, guy on is from suriname, so my mum is a quarter black, three quarters chinese, but she was born and raised in suriname, on the north coast of south america, so that's a former dutch colony. So we were always going to holland as youngsters, um, because that's where our grandmother lived and um, just had loads of family there. So dutch, my second language, brought up, you know, like around surinamese culture, dutch culture, so holland's just like my second country. But then actually I had the time when I was studying fine art in Manchester in 2008, I had the chance to do Erasmus, so I went and studied in Amsterdam and I just went and lived with my family, went, and lived with my you know, my beautiful family, my Tante Josta, my cousins Jochen and Shannon, and just had the most amazing time there, did this amazing exhibition there, studied there. It was just great Painting loads of graph painting, loads of just art on the streets. It was fantastic, um, so that was really, really important.
Speaker 2:And then I suppose, in terms of living in other countries, he actually lived in valencia, on the east coast of spain. Like valencia is very, very like spain generally is a very, very, very special place, has a special place in my heart as well, and actually just before I moved to valencia in 2016, 2015, I changed my name to atilla, so loads of different kind of like tags names before that but actually so I wanted something that spanish people could pronounce phonetically, so it's adila. Adila, and I'd already like I think he was like the baddie in a film, so I think it was like kickboxing or something, kickbox or something. Anyway. I remember like, obviously, atilla the hunt, um, but I just liked how it sounded phonetically, you know, and actually I was doing a lot of like kind of colorful, geometric, kind of style stuff and I felt like the style I started painting suited the name.
Speaker 2:But my style in Valencia as well, my time in Valencia really affected my style, really influenced me, you know, because it's quite easy to paint on the streets there as well, and I think that's kind of probably, you know, closer to that kind of led the way for the style of work I do now, which is quite kind of like graphic and bold and geometric and colourful, and so I think that was the kind of start of it. Really, when, from my time in Valencia, you know, but whenever I go away, I've been lucky enough to like I've painted in. I was in South America for six months as well, like years, like in 2013, 14, I think I painted like in a good few countries there as well. It's a nice place. It's like alternative urban exploration. Basically, try and paint wherever I can. You know, I think that's just a wicked place to kind of leave your mark just the words.
Speaker 1:I was going to say truly leave your mark places you travel. Exactly there we go so for people to go and see this art that we've just been talking about, can you please tell us, firstly, where people can find you on social, but also where they can find Urban Artists Academy? Because it's so good, and I would love it of it if people would go and, yes, absolutely, just come.
Speaker 2:And check it out. Definitely, definitely, definitely. Um. So my personal artist account is at atilla, underscore eight, t4. So that's the number eight, the letter t, the number four, atilla underscore 84, and same with urban artist academy. It's at urban artist academy and, yeah, we're basically working with people of all ages, all abilities. We do a lot of kids birthday workshops. I guess we're doing these, these young offenders workshops at the moment, do a lot of half-term workshops. That's the. That's a really busy time of year for us. That's what we really enjoy. We did like a big summer school. Yeah, graffiti summer school, that was crazy, but, um, yeah, we're literally just trying to get as many people creating as possible. That's the. That's the aim. That's that's really what. What we're trying to do, you know, going to schools, community centers, all of that what a lovely goal yeah, happy days I wish you the very best stop it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much I can't wait to see where you take it and what's next. It has been a pleasure absolutely. It's always a pleasure being in your company, but this has been a really lovely chat and I'm really grateful thank you so much to you bless up your bad self there you have it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of this Is Disruption. If you enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to follow the podcast and never miss an episode. You can find us on all major podcast platforms Apple Podcasts, spotify, etc. Also on YouTube. Stay connected with us on social media. You can find the podcast at this Is Disruption pod on Instagram and TikTok and you will find updates and snippets of upcoming shows. Until next time, keep challenging the status quo, embracing your creative spirit and be brave. Go and create. Thank you and see you in the next episode.