Mental health as an expat with Pamela Zanele 🏥 🧠

🇿🇦🇨🇭 In this episode, we talk with Pamela Zanele, a South African currently living in Switzerland after getting married with a German. Listen the full episode to  discover the journey of Pamela to arrive to Europe and how it changed her life.

Join us in the second part of the episode to discuss about mental health and how moving to a new country, change job or adapting to a new culture has its mental effects.

#podcast #podcasting #southafrica #switzerland #interview #expat #expert #internationalcouple #abroadmarry #internationalmarriage #familyabroad #movingabroad #becomeanexpat #mentalhealth #stress #panicattack #depresion

Follow Pamela on 📲:
https://www.instagram.com/zanpam_/
https://www.youtube.com/@zanpam_

Transcript

This is Expat Experts. Welcome to this new episode of Expat Experts. Today, I'm very happy to have Pamela Zuner here with me.
Nickname Zonpam. I will be calling you the different nicknames that I have of you around. Welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you.
You are South African, currently living in Switzerland for over five years as far as I saw. How long have you been here? Yes, this is my fifth year here. Yeah.
So you have social media, blog channels talking about your life abroad. Also a little bit of fashion, beauty, some travels around there also I've seen.
And last but not least, which is the part that we probably will talk in the second part of the episode, which is related with mental health and a little bit of struggle that I think everyone who has moved abroad can relate with it 100%.
So definitely we will talk go deeper into that in the second part of the episode. But yeah, before we start with your personal life a little bit and your experience and life story, as always a reminder to all the listeners to follow us on social media, Instagram, Facebook, TikToks.
But especially if you can follow us and rate our podcast in both Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube. That is where it really matters for us creators. So just subscribe, I suppose.
I'm always repeating this same part. Hope some days it will work.
It will eventually.
So without further ado, let's jump to your life.
The Expan. Episode 10 with Pamela Zanelli.
Thanks again for accepting the invitation. Thank you for the invitation. Thank you for having me.
You've said that you've been living abroad five years now.
So was Switzerland the first country you lived outside of South Africa?
Outside of South Africa yes. Switzerland was the first.
Because I don't I never thought of living elsewhere other than South Africa.
So yeah, it's my first and probably my last.
We never know. We don't know what the future holds. Yes.
And why Switzerland?
Why did you move there?
So Switzerland, I happened to meet my now husband some 12 years ago in South Africa, in Johannesburg. He lived in Cape Town at the time.
And we've been on and off. And when he finally decided to move back to Switzerland, he invited me.
And at first I was like, no, I don't think so.
And I feel like I got to a point where like towards the end of 2018 where I felt like, you know, when you feel stuck and like you haven't really explored your potential as much.
So I decided, yeah, why not? Let's let's do this.
And that's when he said, OK, would you like to get married? And that's how I ended up in Switzerland.
Yeah. Oh, OK. So it was not only a moving, it was like a moving to get married. OK.
It was a whole 360. Yeah.
Where are you originally in South Africa?
So I'm originally from the Limpopo province, which is up in the north part where part of the Kruger National Park is.
So a very hot region. And I think that's why when you say it's 33 degrees where you are, I'm like, oh my gosh.
Wow, because that's what I'm used to.
So I'm from the northern part of South Africa from a little town called Guyani.
So I was born and raised there. Cool. Very nice.
So you met your husband in South Africa? I met my husband there. Yeah.
In South Africa in Johannesburg. OK.
Workwise or like what happened there?
So he was he was in the coffee business.
So in him being in the coffee business, he was supplying coffee to different companies and all of that.
So although he lived in Cape Town, he had a lot of business in Johannesburg as well.
So because I was in Johannesburg at the time, Johannesburg is like the hub.
You know, people from small towns and villages come for either schooling or work and so forth, a big city.
So that's where I met him. It was 2012. So it was just by luck.
I wasn't looking like I hope he wasn't looking. We just found each other. Yeah.
This happens in life, you know, like that's the most I mean, it's I also, I mean, I'm a multicultural relationship
and I think it's very enriching. I don't know. You discover a lot of things. It is.
It also proposes a lot of challenges. Let's not lie to everyone.
So you need to adapt to ways of doing things and stuff like this.
So you said you moved like in 2008.
2019 just before the pandemic. Yes. At least that.
Yes, it was I felt like it was just the perfect timing, you know, when everything just falls into place.
And that's why I always say everything happens for a reason.
So, yes, I got here just before the pandemic hit.
And what about the marriage part? Like, that's that's a whole story, I suppose.
Like, was it related to the fact of you willing to move there or was something that you already had planned
before taking the decision? So it being a multi like it being
a mixed race relationship, I I always was drawn to him even throughout the years when we would be apart.
We still remained good friends. And there's just the sense of
comfort that I always felt like when I was with him.
So we both knew that one way or the other, we're going to end up together
because I am too much of a free spirit, if I can say, for a guy that looks like me.
So I was always more comfortable with him because he didn't mind me not liking to cook.
He didn't mind me being the way I am.
I didn't have to change any part of me to be acceptable to him.
So when even when I was in other relationships, marriage was not really a thing for me.
I was OK with not getting married, but I knew that if I have to have a life partner,
it had to be someone like my husband.
Nice. You know, so that's that's how it was.
It was it was not really in the cards. It's just that for me to have a sense of security,
especially when taking the sleep, it's something that we had to discuss that I'm not just going to go to a country,
you know, leave my life behind and just take a leap without a security net.
And he thought it was asking like, it's not jumping.
It's not OK. I'm living with someone next door.
Yes. South Africa, Switzerland. It's a big process.
Probably there is a lot of like bureaucracy involved in between all of this stuff.
So was it part of it? Also, it wasn't part of the visa process.
It was it like was it helping into it or I don't know.
So because our initial discussion was that I come and try it out and I'm quite the
I either do it or I don't.
You know, I'm not going to try something out and then if it doesn't work out, I go home.
It doesn't work like that, especially when you come from a place like South Africa.
I was lucky enough to have a stable job, a stable income, and no one was going to take me back.
You know, after trying to go explore Switzerland, what what lies ahead there for me.
And then if it doesn't work out, I can just simply go ask for my job back.
There was already issues with employee with unemployment in South Africa, which has, you know,
skyrocketed ever since. So it was, hey, you either take me or in or we we don't explore this route at all.
But we had also tried to have me visit for a few weeks in the summer of 2019.
And then that didn't work out my because I was already his fiance and that didn't work out because my visitor,
my 90 day Schengen visa was rejected and the embassy actually said we we are not sure.
We don't think you're going to go back because at the time I kind of had already made plans to come to Switzerland,
to come and live here. So I had resigned from work.
You know, I had kind of given up everything like apartment, car and red signs, I suppose.
OK, so it was like, you know, you have to produce, you know, bank statements and all of that letters from your employer.
And you're just like. There's nothing that she's she's going back to.
So for them, it was like, no. So they they they denied the visa.
So the next step is something that we didn't really want to dive into because we felt like it's it's scummy.
If I can call it that it felt kind of scummy in a sense that, you know, some people do that.
It's like a business deal. So we didn't know how that was going to go.
But it eventually worked out. It was just a lengthy and emotionally draining process.
Also financially draining as well, because as opposed to, you know, first world countries, a country like Switzerland,
you can go to your municipality and ask for a document.
And by tomorrow, you have it in your mailbox, whereas in South Africa, it's a mission just getting a letter that said I am not married.
There's nothing that would block me from getting married to someone else, because that was one of the requirements.
It took months. It took months for them to just produce a letter that just says she's not married to anyone.
We've done a background check. She's fine signature. And that's it.
And the next hurdle was getting a police clearance, because I also need to know that we're not bringing in a criminal, you know, into the country.
And that it actually never arrived. It actually never arrived.
But the lady that was because you are assigned a person from the embassy, because it's not it's no longer about you visiting, it's about you making that move.
And the lady was very understanding. They're like, OK, no, just give us proof that you've gone to ask for the criminal record.
So that I had. And after that, things just started to fall into place like really quickly because we were given a month to get married.
So it was already it was it was a bit overwhelming, especially for two people whose intention was never really to get married.
OK, it's crazy. And you're married. You're married in South Africa.
So we so I so what happened is I got my visa when I finally got that visa.
And it was stated on my visa that it's for family purposes.
It's like, you know, it's a special visa that you get. So you book a one way ticket.
Yeah, you book a one way ticket and that's it.
So we booked that flight. And as soon as I got as soon as I got here, we had to set a date to get married.
So in you know, in the court or register marriage register, soon after that, they said, OK, this is what you need to do.
You're now you know, here's your permit. This is how it's going to go.
Health insurance, compulsory and all those things.
And the way things just worked out so quickly, like as opposed to how it would have gone in South Africa was very impressive for me.
That was like one of the first things that you get exactly.
You know, very space, you know, everything is on time trains and all of that. So that was quite impressive. So we I arrived in July 2019.
I arrived on the twenty ninth of July 2019. I remember very clearly because I got I remember I got my visa on the twenty seventh of July.
Immediately after getting my visa. Yes.
I sent I sent my fiance, my husband. Now the picture.
He just booked the flight immediately. He's like, we've been waiting for too long because we had been going through this process, this back and forth with home affairs in South Africa.
The police and all of that for three months now. So it was like, no, I'm booking that flight.
So on the twenty eighth, I left home and you know, my family was also a played a very big part in all of this, like making me feel secure because they knew him.
They already knew him and they always liked him. He's actually the only guy, first and only guy that I ever introduced to my parents.
Then it's the guy. It was always him, you know?
So even when I told them what was going on, there was no pushback, you know, from them saying, are you sure? No, don't do this.
So we're like, you've always like the guy. He's always treated you well, you know, and go for it. Take the knee.
If it doesn't work out, you can always come home, you know, but it was never even a discussion because I've always just been this daring person.
And that's what made me different from the rest of my family because I'm actually the first to make that move, you know, and they were just so proud because they knew I would work it out somehow.
Like, my mom still tells me that, you know, I've never doubted you. You always find your way. You always.
Yeah, it's a big thing. So like with them, they were also ready. Bags were packed. Everything. They were ready.
We were just waiting for that sticker in my passport to say you can go.
It's very nice because at the end, it's just like your family. It's not only one big thing. It's two big things, one next to the other. I'm getting married with this guy and I'm actually hoping to switch to them for doing that.
So I know a lot of families who wouldn't take that easily or nice.
Absolutely. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by that, and I was very grateful because they were very supportive throughout the process.
I mean, when I had already left work and not living in my own place anymore, I was living in their house.
So they also lived in Johannesburg after some time after I moved to Johannesburg. They also came to Johannesburg as well, although we still have our home back in the north.
So they welcomed me. They were very helpful. My mom would find things to keep me warm because they just hear that Europe is cold, even their summers are very cold.
So she was just buying me all these things, these jackets. She's like, oh, these were on sale. You can, you know, leg warmers and thermals and stuff like that.
So it was a very nice experience because I had a support system, you know, and, you know, sometimes my mom would drive with me to go to home affairs.
She would drive with me to go to the embassy for my meetings. So it was it felt good because there was never a point where anyone made me doubt my decision.
And I think that that really played a major role in me being confident in what I was doing.
Yeah. Do you visit them often? Do you go down to South Africa from time to time?
Yeah, quite often, actually. So I after I moved in, after I moved, it was July, right? So in February, I went to South Africa just as COVID was starting to trickle in.
You know, like it was like a buzz thing like Corona, Corona. You were hearing from China and you were like, ah, this is never happening. That's the problem.
Yeah. But now, you know, this is like this thing from China. But now I was I remember I was on an Emirates flight and you have to connect via Dubai.
And I saw some Chinese people coming towards me and I was just I just went into panic. And, you know, it was just it was still, I think, a Chinese thing more than anything.
So I visited them in South Africa and all of that spent time with my family. And the the craziest thing that made me feel so secure in my move was the fact that after a while, I really wanted to come back.
So I was there for two, yeah, I was there for two to three weeks. And, you know, when all the excitement dies down and all of that, you're like, OK, I'm ready to go back now.
Like that is my home. Like I'm ready to go home. So you're ready to switch of what you're considering the home.
Yeah, exactly. And I feel like because I'm a very adaptable person, if that's the correct word, I am not very attached to things.
I would say maybe people, but I always knew that if I want to see my family, I could always go see them or have them come over. And unfortunately, after after coming back, that's when they started shutting everything down.
You know, flights were grounded and we didn't see each other for a while. But in that whole process, that is when my daughter was conceived.
So she's outright a COVID baby. And, you know, I remember, you know, sometimes when I would feel unwell during my pregnancy, I couldn't really tell my mom. I decided to stop telling her about it because she would just be like, but I can't even come there.
You can't even come. You know, so it was quite a difficult time. But I feel like honestly, honestly, I was quite relaxed because I never worried about anything.
The system here is just so pristine. I had support, like it was just me and my husband, but you know, from my gynecologist, all these entities that support, they send you things for the baby, they send you things about your pregnancy.
They come to your home and you know, try to prepare you for all of that. So I had quite a solid support system. And so my baby came, you know, the year after in 2021 January.
And it was still ongoing, but I wouldn't trade that experience for anything else. I wouldn't say I could have had it better because it was okay. Switzerland was not really locked down anyway.
It was this half half. It was much worse. Yeah, that's for sure.
Yeah, it was much worse. People were not allowed to be outside like in South Africa. And, you know, it's things like that that help that make me think that that how would I have survived that, you know, staying indoors for months, you know, you need a permit to be outside.
Whereas here we were still taking walks, certain shops were still open, you know, so it was really not. I feel like we were seeing COVID on TV. Yeah, yes, certain shops were closed, but I mean, if I wanted to order a coat or something, I could get it.
It would get delivered to my house. So, you know, life never really stopped this side. I also was lucky in that sense, like I was in Germany. It was more or less the same. Like my parents in Barcelona were completely locked down 100%.
Yes, yes, like they couldn't go out. They couldn't only go to supermarkets in a radio of whatever. And in Germany, we never had a strict lockdown. We had like the Corfe night thingy, like after 11.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But nothing else. I think systems were pretty similar between Switzerland and Germany. Yeah, absolutely.
You said actually one of the things that I always like, I kind of ask the people who has kids, and they are part of a multicultural family because it's so interesting for me. How do you bring your South African roots, your life, like your part of being to your kids, how do you integrate that into your raising them up?
It's, I think you make a choice every day, right? Especially at every stage of you raising the child. So there's things like, you know, because I was relying so much on the internet, I was relying a lot on the internet to understand what was going on.
Like, okay, baby just made a sound that sounds like this.
And I would look it up.
So, there were things, you know, like baby, baby center and different apps that told you all about your pregnancy and all about your baby and the milestones and stuff like that. You know, first of all, I feel like the Swiss system is quite...
They are more on the holistic approach, if I can call it that.
Like, I remember when I was pregnant, there was never at any point during my gynae visits, where a C-section was brought up.
It was just like you're giving birth naturally, like, unless if there's a need for you to have a caesarean. So I connected a lot with that even after giving birth.
You know, they would recommend herbs, you know, for production, for milk production and stuff like that. And, but as time went, they started talking about things like sleep training, where you let your little baby cry themselves to sleep.
And how you train them. And I remember doing it one time.
And I felt so much guilt.
Like, I had to sit down with myself and say, this is not how I was raised.
And they talk about safe sleeping, which is a thing, right? They've been infant fatalities because parents just put their babies in their bed with them.
And I read, so it's really just taking everything and seeing if they align with who you are with your values and your morals, because I had to, I felt like, I will not get a good night's rest if I put my child in a cot.
So what I will do, what I would do is I got this little thing, like with a barrier where I would put her and put her next to me in bed.
And it made life easier for both of us because I was breastfeeding a hundred percent, you know.
So it made life easier for both of us. And she even got to a point where she could even find it herself in the dark without me having to wake up, you know.
So those are the things that I had to go back to and say, but I slept with my parents until a certain age.
It's okay. I turned out fine. I would like to believe.
So after doing that whole sleep training thing, I had so much guilt.
Like I remember she eventually did fall asleep, but I took her out of the cot and I just felt really bad.
Like I'm not doing this. I'm never doing this ever again.
And I feel like my husband was not too pushy with that as well to say, no, you have to do it, do it by the book.
He allowed me to mother the best way I knew how, you know, obviously with certain things, he will look it up and say, okay, but I've contacted this doctor.
I've contacted friends of mine and asked them for their opinion.
And then we will sit and say, is this something that we are going to do?
Because with the sleep training topic as well, we had friends who would just put their kids in bed, like at 7.
It was nice. It was like, oh my goodness. They get to have that time to themselves.
But it's quite for me, it's like I chose to have a child.
It didn't happen by mistake for a certain amount of time, for a certain period of time.
I'm dedicated to being the best mother I can be. And there's no need for me to be selfish.
I'm not just going to drop my child in a cot just because I want to have some time to myself.
It is important, yes, but I feel like you need to like it's the route you choose.
I'm comfortable with that. I'm happy with that.
There's no guilt that comes with how I'm raising our daughter.
So even with the whole gentle parenting thing, you know, no, don't.
It's tough as an African.
I mean, there is, I suppose there is very, very much cultural differences also involved
and processes on how things are done.
It's obvious from, I don't know, from Germany to Spain, like in our case, there is ways and ways that the German doctors
have been recommended for so many years and that the Spanish doctors have been recommended to.
I can imagine that this with your case happens the same. No, but do you have also like culturally wise?
Like, do you still like, I don't know, like speak in which language do you speak to your daughter, for example?
So my husband speaks German.
He speaks Spanish because he actually grew up when you when you mentioned how you grew up near Barcelona.
I was tempted to ask where exactly because he spent a pretty good chunk of his childhood in Catalonia,
in a little village called Torre de Mbara.
So he speaks fluent Spanish as well. And he also speaks English, obviously, because he lived in South Africa.
And my mother tongue, because in South Africa we have 11 official spoken languages,
but the sign language being the 12th. So I speak almost all of them, right? Because, yeah, it's when you get to a place like Johannesburg,
I told you everyone comes to Johannesburg. You make closer friends. You make Zulu friends.
And I feel like in order to survive anyway, in a place like Johannesburg, you have to know Zulu.
You have to know Suthu and Zona to get around. So you end up catching all these.
And they kind of related in any case. You know, it's like you would understand.
I'm assuming that you would understand Italian, you would understand Portuguese, you know, the Latin. Yeah.
So it's a bit like that. So I speak Zonga.
Zonga is like a bit like Zulu, a bit like Xhosa, a bit like Suthu.
So I'm able to pick up different languages as well from that.
I can also understand some Swahili words from East Africa. Some Central African languages, I do understand.
Some languages from Angola, I do grasp the concept of what they are saying.
And I also, in primary school, I went to an Afrikaans school.
Afrikaans being Dutch, like a more diluted or Africanized Dutch.
So when I go to the Netherlands, I understand them very well.
So that's that also helped with with understanding German as well.
And but with my daughter, because we are trying to get her to...
It's a lot of languages. It's a lot of languages. Exactly.
So what will happen is she... our next door neighbors, actually, they are Mexicans.
They speak Spanish. And my husband speaks Spanish with her here and there.
Sometimes she will choose a Spanish program and not want any other language.
So we let her watch it and she grasps it a little.
But that is not our main thing. Although it would be very helpful, you know.
But our main languages at home is English and German.
My husband is from Germany. He's German. He speaks Hochdeutsch.
And so that's what he speaks with her. But she goes to daycare.
It's something that we found very important in order for her to integrate.
So she's been going to daycare since she was like seven, eight months old.
And she speaks Swiss German. And she's teaching me as well.
So she speaks Swiss German. So it's mainly English, High German, Swiss German,
because the High German is very important for my husband.
And also like at a more professional level, if I can say it like that.
Because I mean, we are not trying to confine her to only Switzerland.
Yeah, that makes sense. She might end up somewhere in Spain.
We might decide to move to Spain or to wherever the wind takes us.
And she kind of needs to be multilingual.
It's really cool that she can already speak two variants of the same.
Yeah, two variants of the same. Right.
So with the language thing, I feel like I use my mother tongue.
She understands the basics, the basics, because we do visit South Africa with her.
And so with my mother tongue, it's only when I'm not being such a gentle parent,
when I'm giving her warnings. So she's learning the backwards.
It's not insults. Not insults. Not insults, but it's more like more emphasis.
You're able to emphasize yourself better with your native language.
That's what I do. And I know you're quite familiar with that.
With Spanish growing up in Spain, it's quite, I think, quite similar. Yeah.
Talking about languages, how is German going?
You know that you're studying German now.
It's a super easy language. I feel like I'm not being honest with you.
No. It's a nightmare. And how is your German?
I don't know. You know, it's there.
It's like every... everything has a gender.
Everything has a condition. And I think that's where they get me.
Dative, accusative. It's just so much, you know, and I feel like I'm learning to appreciate English now.
Because I thought English was complicated for nothing. No, English is easy. Yes.
English is the easiest language you'll ever speak because German came in and threw me off.
And I don't know how I would have managed to even understand the slightest of concept or even sentence construction if I didn't have this Afrikaans background.
Did that help? Yeah, that helps.
But another issue for me is the fact that I'm not in Germany.
Because when I'm in Germany, I find it easier to understand people when they speak to me.
I'm in Switzerland.
Swiss German is really complex to understand if you come from normal German, like from standard German, from Germany. It is a complex variant.
I don't know. I still don't get it and I speak German, so just like...
It is. It's like why? You know, like why? Because you go to Lucerne, right?
It's a different dialect of the Swiss German dialect.
You go to Zurich. You go to Bern. You go to different places.
There are certain people, like depending on where you come from in the German part of Switzerland, they both speak Swiss German, but they don't understand each other.
And even the German that you're being taught in German school, it's not Swiss German. They teach you high German, so you have to learn it from the streets. Well, in my case, I'm learning it from my daughter.
It's a street language-ish, you know.
It's, yeah. I will ask you a couple of questions more before we close the first part, if that works for you.
Sure. I wanted to ask you what was the thing that shocked you the most when you arrived from South Africa to Switzerland? What was the thing that you said, oh, wow, I wasn't expecting these or you didn't know that?
I would say this, I feel like I'm saying this with caution because I'm basing it off my personal experience. Right.
But coming from South Africa with its histories, you know, around race, racism, and, you know, our democracy is still quite new.
But when I came to Switzerland, one of the things that really caught me off guard was how I experienced no racism.
Like direct, like in South Africa, because in South Africa, I feel like it's very obvious that someone is being racist towards you.
And I'm not saying Switzerland is not racist at all, you know, there've been instances or incidents where I felt like, OK.
And the funny thing is when I did experience some kind of discrimination or being looked down upon was not even by Swiss people.
So that was one of the things like where, you know, you go to the hospital or the doctor and they just touch you with their bare hands.
It's like aren't you going to wear gloves because I'm black. You don't want my dirty blackness to kind of, you know, because I had a different experience back at home.
It was just so, you know, even with the stairs, because I would get stared at quite a lot, it was not the uncomfortable, the kind of stairs that make you feel uncomfortable.
You could see like they're staring at you with admiration. So a huge weight.
I remember like I feel like months later, after moving here, I was like, oh, my gosh, like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders.
I feel more free, like I'm not anxious, you know, just how and that's another thing.
Like I can walk around with my cell phone like this and no one's going to try to snatch it.
No one's going to point a knife at me and ask for my phone. If the other day I forgot my phone in the restaurant.
And then I went back. It was still there. You know, things like that.
And it's things that, you know, whenever we go to South, we go visit South Africa, we have to remind ourselves that, OK, we are not in Switzerland anymore.
We have to be more careful. So things like that, just how clean it was seeing girls with.
Wearing shorts and not being harassed, you know, at 10 p.m.
That is unheard of in South Africa, like when you do that, you just you really, you know, you.
So for me, it was those things. It was more on a positive note.
The only negative thing that shocked me was just how long the winters are.
It's like it's still winter, it's still cold.
You know, that that really took me back to a point where we actually had to make a decision as a family that sometime in January, February, we had to we have to go somewhere hot because this is too much.
You know, it's like six month winters, whereas in South Africa, it's like three months at most one where you feel, OK, it's really cold.
But then three months is your max and you're done with it.
And it gets so that's the only thing if you want.
That gets worse. Go to Berlin or to.
But yeah, if you go to Norway and Finland, you know, when I see other Africans that live there, I'm like, what are you doing?
Yeah. How are you surviving this? Because it's no, I need some sun, you know.
So, but, you know, not to keep it all rosy and positive and all of that to say that it's all perfect.
The the difference that another thing that I felt, especially after having a child that I felt like was missing in Switzerland is a sense of community.
Because the Swiss kind of keep to themselves, you know.
And another thing like over the years that I started to realize that was that there's so many old age homes.
Yeah, it's like, no, it's so many old age homes.
Well, and I have grandparents that are in their 90s.
They still live in their house, you know, they're taken care of by family.
Like you leave. Yeah.
So, like, I feel like that sense of togetherness, because like people are just to themselves.
And I remember this one. It was last year at the AfroSummer jam, exactly a year ago.
So there's this African thing that happens in Zurich.
It's actually going to happen this weekend as well.
And there was a white lady Swiss who came there with her child.
I guess maybe she had visited Africa before and just wanted to try out African food, like to have African food again.
She bought food and she had her son with her.
It was just the two of them. And she was trying to eat because she had just gotten food.
So she was sitting not so far away from us and the son wouldn't let her eat.
Like he was just clinging. He was holding on to her.
And I said, like, I stepped over and took the child, you know, like, come, come here, come sit with me.
And I said, come eat. And she was in shock. She was in complete shock.
She couldn't stop talking about it the whole day.
She ended up sitting with us because and with us, it's normal.
If I see someone struggling in the street, I help them out.
You know, if I see especially someone struggling with a child, I go and ask if they need help.
And, you know, because I think that's why we have as South Africans, we have these little groups.
Black and white, actually.
So there's a group where sometimes we go out, we have like a little barbecue.
We call it a bribe. We bring our South African food and all of that.
And we all come together. And there was this these South African, the South African family, also white.
And they had they came with their two daughters.
So we were just dishing out the food that we had brought with us.
But we were all sitting together, you know, in one place at one at the same spot.
And we dished up for them, you know, the food that we had.
And we actually had a discussion with the parents later that, you know,
it's so hard warming because we can do these things without feeling like, oh, my gosh, you know, I'm not supposed to.
I'm supposed to ask the parents first if they want the food or whatever.
And then the parents going to give me a whole story or look at me with crazy eyes like, why are you trying to give my child your food?
You know, so that sense of community, I feel, is lacking.
I see a lot of loners and people are just like they have walls around them, which I find pretty sad.
Yeah. How the societies, North societies are a little bit more reclusive.
If it's OK for you because we are nearly one hour talking already.
We can jump to the second part of the episode, I would say.
I know you have German afterwards. I don't want to keep you very long. Yeah, sure.
The expert mental health as an expat.
We talk a little bit in the interview or in the intro.
You have talked through your channels also about mental health, a little bit of like the whole part of the depression,
anxiety and everything that comes with mental health issues. And I think a lot of people who has been an expert or have moved abroad had this moment at some point.
And especially all of those people who needs to pass through a visa process.
I also recognize that everyone who needs to pass through a much more complex bureaucracy is financially skyrocketing.
What does the whole idea mean? I really love that there is people talking about it.
It's not an easy topic to talk in front of a camera a lot of times.
I think we all pass through it in a way or another. Yeah.
Where does it come from?
Like, I know you had at some point problems probably.
And then you thought that it was a good idea, maybe this whole part of the community, you know, to take it out and help other people.
Was it coming from that?
So I feel before I moved to Switzerland, I already kind of
self diagnosed that, OK, I have anxiety. I have depression, you know, in some parts.
And there've been points where I felt like I would be better off not alive before even moving to Switzerland.
But I had the whole holistic approach. So I never sought professional help then.
So it was just something that I knew I had an issue with.
So I would just take, you know, like lavender or whatever, just calm myself or meditate, do yoga and things like that.
After having a child, I kind of had postpartum depression.
And that's why my husband thought it would be best if he sent me and my daughter to South Africa for a couple of months, like two months,
just so I can be around family, because he was working a lot during that time.
And then again, when I started working, I started working and I was working in an international environment, like international multicultural.
And I just I loved my job. It was not something
in my line of experience, but it was just something that I felt it would be nice because my daughter just started going to daycare.
My husband is working. They have their own lives going on. So it would be nice if I built my own community.
And that that is the attitude I went into that with. Unfortunately, it ended up becoming a very toxic environment.
And after a year of working there, I had a panic attack, you know, just, you know, when you just the thought of going to work drains you like you are not looking, looking forward to it.
It's just like it drains you. And I ended up having a panic attack and I was written off sick.
And after that, we made a decision that I'm going to go, you know, my own way, because I had raised certain issues.
I had raised the issues like it was mobbing and bullying. It was, you know, racism.
Let's call it what it is. It was also racism and just them.
Making me feel less than and it triggered so many things, you know, from the past and the way I already was mentally.
So it triggered so many things, which led me to having the biggest panic attack I had ever had.
And that's when I was like, OK, I need to take my mental health seriously, like I need professional help because I need to deal with this.
It was so bad because it affects everything.
It can be a work issue, but it affects everything.
And it affects the marriage. It affects you as a parent and everything.
You just cannot cope and you're in this foreign country.
So everything just just comes falling together.
And that's because the reality is that if you don't find a community as an expert or as an immigrant in a new country, especially countries that are not like these north, these west, western European, maybe.
But I'm not going to minimize it to just that.
If you live in a different country, it takes a toll on your mental health because you don't have that community anymore that you used to have back at home.
You know, there's certain norms and standards that you have back home that are not here.
And I feel like that is when I started feeling really like, maybe my issues are not being heard because of the way I look.
You know, like, ah, she's strong, because there's always this black women are strong thing.
And even when I went to my medical doctor, it took a while for him to take the matter seriously. And actually, I had to ask him to refer me to a psychologist, a psychiatrist, because he was just like, no, just, you know, I'm just going to write you off and take a break, take all the time you need.
Start looking for another job. And I just felt like I don't think I'm in a position to be looking for something else. I need healing. I need help.
So that is where I felt like I was failed in a way by the system because I had raised these issues time and time again with my superiors at work.
And nothing was done. And I think that's what made me even more frustrated.
And, you know, instead of being vengeful, because it got to a point where lawyers approached me and said, you know, you have a strong case, right.
But I was like, is that going to benefit me in any way, except for what maybe they said they reach a settlement and give me money but am I going to be okay like am I my mental health came first at that point and this was last year.
So I started with therapy I started with a psychiatrist and a psychologist.
We work well together, I'm on antidepressants, and it's something that took me a while to speak out about because it's frowned upon in many communities, people take a look at it as like you've you're a failure you've given up like antidepressants is like the lowest you can go and there's always these these myths around, you know, antidepressants and stuff like that.
There's something wrong with you then if you have to take medication. And I talked about these things in the open, because I realized that a lot of people are not even aware that they're suffering from depression, they're not even aware that they, they're suffering from anxiety.
They don't even know what they're going through, because when I had to explain to my therapist, the events that took place because I had to write everything down.
And I, I presented the things to her.
She had to tell me what I was going through.
Yeah, she had to tell me.
Yeah, you are exactly how something that nobody spoke ever to you. And that's one of the worst things and that's why I find very brave but at the same time very needed people who pass these stories also speed it up a little bit.
I mean, I've been in there and I never hide it about it like in Spain, I think there was there is still, but especially with previous generations, the whole stigma around going to psychologist to psychiatrics about if you need to go to a psychologist because you are crazy.
And that's not the reality that everyone has moments and life it's an ups and downs. And when this roller coaster is too high and too down, you are going into an emotional thing either that's I'm not uncontrollable, and you need to take it out you need to speak it to someone.
A lot of societies has this sense of community where you go and you talk with your friends and whatever but these people are even with that these people are not specialists.
They will come through something that work for them, but it's not a scientific approach to it.
I mean, that's, that's very much like I felt the same like until you went to specialist who was telling you a yes okay this cycle here here here you see these are pics of depression, pics of anxiety, this whole trigger and it's quite exciting
right, it's nice I mean, it's, when you when someone finally tells you, yeah, there is a part of like finally understanding what it's going on in your mind, it's hard for sure I mean it's like,
why, why is it happening to me and this whole like, but impossible that also comes with this kind of stuff, etc etc. But at some point it's also like oh wow, wow, I've been like dear for dealing with this for years and now finally I'm starting to understand what the complex.
It's the most complex organ that we have the brain it's nobody understands how it works 100% but at least starting knowing how why putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
Yeah, absolutely. So I think for me, you know, I always look forward to because I see both a psychiatrist and a therapist a psychologist because here like for me to be medically written off.
I had to, it had to be written by a psychiatrist. And I actually look forward to seeing. I look forward to seeing them both because they both amazing, but with a psychiatrist how he was able to explain how things are working how they are affecting me.
It took a huge weight off my shoulders to make me feel like for the first time ever I felt heard.
Like, oh so this this is a thing and the reason why I always recommend because you know there'll be people sending me inboxes saying, hey, I feel like this what would you recommend.
I think, you know, don't be ashamed to go and see a professional, because it might be the best thing you ever do for yourself for yourself, because I'm not going to you cannot diagnose or try to understand yourself based off of my personal experience, because
I had to go years back to my childhood to my, you know, because I was also diagnosed with PTSD, which I was not aware of but the reason why I have certain triggers is because of the PTSD I don't even know why certain things trigger me but you know when you start explaining your
child, like how you grew up and things that were happening to you, to a normal person it looks normal it's like oh you had a pretty normal childhood. No, no you didn't, you know so you need to speak to a professional that will be able to put it into perspective for you, and teach you how to address certain
triggers and how to avoid them because I will tell you now I thought I was going to be like that for the rest of my life just, you know constantly questioning myself like, am I even normal?
Like, why am I like this? I'm a weirdo, that's how I used to, you know, I settled for that title to say, yeah I'm a weirdo, I'm anti-social and stuff like that.
It was a trauma response.
And now that I know, now that I know it's like, no, I will not accept that I want to be the best version of myself.
It's one of the other things that a lot of people don't realize and a lot of the stigma that it's also around that it's that you feel excluded or you feel like, okay you are having something that nobody else is having, because people don't talk about it because of the whole stigma society has around this topic.
It's not true it's like, the majority of people around you has passed, or is passing through mental health issues, because we live in a society that it's triggering them also and it's getting worse and worse and everything it's fast and everything
it's getting worse or whatever, and it's getting like bigger and bigger the whole thing. So I always like said to everyone that I've met and it happens this when you talk about this topics people start sending you messages and then you know the EMS and stuff and saying hey I passed through that, what should I do, whatever, whatever.
And it's one of the biggest things for me was realizing that I was, you are not alone there.
There was people who pass through the same thing before you there is people passing through the same thing. At the same time as you and there will be people passing through it after you and there is light outside of this tunnel and it passes through different, multiple different things.
For example never took medication, for example, because I, yeah, because every case it's different everyone it's different and every situation it's absolutely different so that's why it's so important that you seek for this professional help, because that will establish in
which point you are and, and what to do.
You also talked about writing down I think this is something I never did it because I'm a horrible writer.
Actually, I did record some stuff. That's true, like, I was more like boys recording things that I know a lot of people who help by, I don't know having a diary or like writing how you feel every day, regularly and stuff like this, the tools are there
thing like and even I don't know. I wanted to ask you this also, how it. What is the biggest difference like between like if you're having mental health problems the support that you can have in South Africa versus you having it in Switzerland, for example
in another place, did it change a lot like how you would solve this, for sure.
I will tell you now that from the onset, especially because now I had to deal with insurance and stuff like that, which for me was already mind blowing.
So when I when I called in sick. So now because it was kind of indefinite they knew it was going to be prolonged. So insurance had to take over paying my salary.
Okay, so they also have that. So it was the company's insurance that took over and did that. So they were paying my salary, provided that I produce a doctor's note to say that I'm off sick.
And after three months, that is when we cut ties with the company but the insurance was still paying me. And soon after that, I decided, like, after going to therapy and all of that.
I felt like speaking with my psychologist with my, with my psychiatrist as well. But it's okay to kind of start reintegrating because there's also another program like it's state, it's a state owned thing.
It's a state program, a government program, where they will contact you if they see that you've been sick for prolonged periods. And they will get in touch with you and try to understand your problem and all of that and then they assess.
So they will either try to like if it's for me it was like a mental health, it was not physical. So with mental health. Obviously it's touch and go right, so they try to get you into programs to help you reintegrate into the workplace.
And it's fully funded by them they pay you. Okay, so I didn't have to worry about the financial aspect of it because the health insurance was also paying for, for all my consultations with a psychologist with a psychiatrist for my medication and all of that.
So that program led me to, they, they got me a job coach.
Right. So it's a personal it's a different entity. So this job coach was is being paid for by the government to help me, you know, reintegrate look for for for jobs. Even this German call of course that I'm in is paid for by the state.
You know, so it's really just such a seamless process you know when when I explained this to someone from South Africa they're like, what, because I remember there's certain jobs that I left, although it was not, I didn't identify it as an illness or a health concern, but I just felt like I don't need this I'm leaving this job.
And you were out on your own, you were out to be your own. I have friends that have lost their jobs because they were depressed and there was no support.
So, that is what makes it different. Being here and you know being there because they have structures in place that fully support like, you know, always joke around and say, Switzerland doesn't allow you to be poor, because it's just always something there's always someone you can go to and say hey look, I'm in trouble I can't, you know, and they go all in so
I was, I got a lot of support from the insurance the lady at insurance she called me every time hope you're fine I'm sorry about what you went through. Please don't forget to send in your medical notes so we can pay you.
You know when I went to the government place for the call it a handicap.
They were also very supportive trying to understand my situation and all of that.
So, that that also is the difference because I feel like in South Africa you have to fight for your money. You know, they, they're very good at taking your money like when you make your contribution to health insurance and all of that, but when it's time for them to pay you back
that's the issue, whereas here it's smooth sailing I have, I've never had to call anyone and say hey where's my money.
That's nice. That's very cool. So that's that's different so I feel.
Yeah, exactly. It's a swift system and I feel like it also helps with my mental health as well because that aspect I don't have to worry about.
If if on top of being depressed or having anxiety or everything you need to be dealing with bureaucracy. It's the same as having a war.
Yeah. And that's if that was the thing that triggered like in your case, I'm in your case even worse I if there was moving involved and, and racism and everything.
It's, it's good that you have a system takes care of you afterwards that's for sure like just absolutely. I don't know i mean it's. Absolutely. I don't know why how people can treat others like that I never will understand people who are as host to their colleagues, you can have bad days
and bad situations at work and having tension moments work is work I understand but when it comes to your colleagues, treat them with dignity because at the end, just like, it doesn't matter they raise their age their whatever it's like, man, why why this kind of shit still exists
it's ridiculous because if you're a person who suffers about anxiety or depression. That's just adding on top of your mountain. It's all adding in your to into your backpack.
I don't know be kind to people you don't know what they are passing through. So always, and you know that the most messed up thing was the fact that the ring leader in this whole situation was a South African woman.
It was a white South African woman. Great. So, you know, that's why I always say my experience is different because I, I've never experienced racism direct racism from a Swiss person is always non Swiss people.
So, you know, it's, I guess it is how it is maybe she expected me to treat her, like my master or something.
Okay. And she forgot that things have changed. So yeah, good. Get the Star Wars movie.
Yeah, but I'm actually I'm actually grateful it happened as well, you know, like, obviously I'm saying it now because I'm in a better place now. I'm grateful it happened because it helped me go back.
And, you know, just go back to my past my upbringing and everything and address that because I was triggered by certain things that had been happening in the office, because of my post traumatic stress disorder, and I'm not excusing the racism and the bullying and the mobbing.
But the way my reaction towards it, how I had the sudden panic attack, where I would call my husband crying from work, you know, stuff like that.
It helped me become a stronger person.
It helped me become kinder as well because you realize that people are going through a lot. But it also made me feel very secure in myself to say that I'm okay, I'm normal. Yeah, definitely.
And the other thing is clear it's that if you're in an environment, it's absolutely toxic and whatever if it's work life or partners or whatever if you are having in a situation where your people around you are racist as holes or, I don't know, just like going to therapy only will not all will not solve all the problems so get out of that environment also that it's important.
Sometimes you need to pass therapy to realize that the environment is there.
Yeah.
Like you know yeah, in a not ideal set up or situation. Yeah.
100% agree. Yeah.
Cool. 100%. I really really love this talk.
I really I think, and I know that it will help people, and I know that it will encourage someone if they are passing through this to seek for help and going out.
Of course I enjoyed talking about your experience moving to Switzerland, and the more happy part of it, let's say like this.
I suppose yes, although there was also a visit.
It all comes, it all comes with something right there's always something that comes with it I saw a real today it was like, sunny, you know, sunny weather and low income or crappy weather and high income, you know, so it's, it's never going to be smooth sailing, but I feel like
in the mental health aspect of things, which I feel will in general cover everything else.
Once you start to address the, the mental health issues, like how you're struggling and identify that it becomes easier for you to understand not only understand yourself but others, you know, and you don't take things personally anymore, it's like, it's not.
I feel like therapy should be a requirement for anyone that decides to not only leave the country, but I highly recommend it if you choose to go work in a different country.
You can do online therapy you can do, you know, your local visit your local therapist, whichever way works for you but I highly recommend it it's, it's it's the biggest gift I've given myself.
And actually fighting for it fighting for my doctor to, to, to, you know, refer me to a therapist.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for the episode today for coming to the podcast explaining your life, explaining your experiences.
Yeah.
I don't know if you want to use like the channel also to to show any of your social channels of course you have a YouTube video you have Instagram.
Yes, just feel free to promote a little bit let's say like this.
Thank you. So I'm on Instagram, I think I'm very, mostly active on Instagram. I am at Zen Pam, with underscore, so it's ZANPAM underscore.
You can also find me on YouTube, under the same username. And yeah, I devil with different platforms but those are my two main platforms where I actually talk directly to people especially in my stories, that's where most of my audience is when it comes to these kind of topics.
So yeah, give me a follow and send a message if you need, you know, any guidance on anything, but I'm not a therapist. I'm still going to tell you to go see a therapist so yeah, but do give me a follow.
So, as always, the link to social media will be in the description of the channel for those who doesn't find it.
You can always find it there. Again, thank you so much for for today. I hope we talk soon.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
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